The truth? Or minions? Deep stuff here.
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daemir
Finland8662 Posts
The truth? Or minions? Deep stuff here. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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YouGotNothin
United States907 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
People just shouldn't try discuss assumed difficulty of games since it's a non-tangible idea in the first place | ||
JALbert
United States484 Posts
There's no doubt that SC2 (and DotA, for that matter) are more mechanically difficult than LoL. However, the equation that a higher degree of mechanical skill will always yield a better game is sort of silly. You could make basketball more mechanically difficult by shrinking the hoop, but all you've done is emphasize one specific mechanic at the cost of cheapening value of other skills. Since a competitive game by nature is a level playing field for all players, demanding a higher emphasis on mechanics is shrinking the demand for strategy, teamplay and thinking at the highest level. Chess has zero mechanical requirements, but it's held as a bastion of strategic gaming. If LoL is easier mechanically, then more of the competitive edge must come from out-thinking your opponents as opposed to ridiculously good micro and mechanics. | ||
YouGotNothin
United States907 Posts
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bobbob
United States368 Posts
I always point out denying as an overall neutral, especially when someone from DotA argues that denying makes the game better. It certainly makes the game more complex, but I always look at the effect it has on the game. Denying makes some lanes impossible, as you can easily make a neutral lane move in whatever direction you want if you have lane control, making it so weaker lanes cannot do anything, without any interaction. In LoL, the lack of denying makes it so in order to deny your opponents resources, you have to interact with them to make them stay away, or at least put yourself into a more dangerous position. As to itemization, DotA went for cheaper items being more cost effective than more expensive ones, making inventory slots a much more important part of the game. In League, you try to exploit timings around finishing items, since they are more effective stats-wise than just basic items. Different emphasis, hard to argue for one over the other. I think that both games require smart drafting, neither game really has higher emphasis, but DotA has had more time overall to polish what picks and team compositions are good. | ||
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I tell you I formulate this opinion from large figureheads and you flat ignore it and continue to call me names. What if I told you Snoopeh himself more or less agrees with me? WHat if I told you it's really only the forum warriors that perceive some secret attack at the notion that LoL is "more casual" or "easier to access" ? I am done here. I was sad to see my name come up and used the way it was so I thought I would try and give context. I was attacked repeatedly and reminded why progamers don't belong on forums (and seldom do). | ||
adriftt
335 Posts
After playing both to a relatively high level (1800 PSR back in HoN beta and 2k ELO in LoL) I can safely say that neither game takes more skill. It is just different kinds of skill. People forget but DoTA has very few skillshots compared to LoL among other things. Its pretty ignorant to claim that either one takes more skill than the other. | ||
Abenson
Canada4122 Posts
It's like saying chess is harder to play than basketball - they require different skills. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On January 29 2013 13:55 Abenson wrote: Why can't people just accept that LoL and Dota are now almost completely different games? It's like saying chess is harder to play than basketball - they require different skills. Which one is basket and which one is chess ? Chose carefully, I heard some people in here don't like basket. | ||
Solaris.playgu
Sweden480 Posts
On January 29 2013 13:35 iNcontroL wrote: I think it's odd a lot of you get upset at me for discussing LoL the way I do but then repeatedly call me names like "court jester" or make fun of my career and your perception that it is a failure or w/e. I tell you I formulate this opinion from large figureheads and you flat ignore it and continue to call me names. What if I told you Snoopeh himself more or less agrees with me? WHat if I told you it's really only the forum warriors that perceive some secret attack at the notion that LoL is "more casual" or "easier to access" ? I am done here. I was sad to see my name come up and used the way it was so I thought I would try and give context. I was attacked repeatedly and reminded why progamers don't belong on forums (and seldom do). It´s too bad you feel that way. I know you said you won´t post here any more, so I understand if you don´t, but could you explain what you mean when you say "lol is more casual", just for the sake of clarification? Because I can interpret that as many, vastly different, things. I believe on reason people lashed out at you is that in your post you come of as, if not condescending, at least as if talking from above. You did not invite discussion on an equal level as much as state "this is how it is", which I can see would annoy some. Then again, your purpose might have been just giving context as you say, but that could have been done better if you explained more in detail exactly what you meant instead of defending your stance. For instance you talk about marketing, but marketing in what sense? Communication with fans, representing brands, charity events? It´s hard, at least for me, to understand exactly what your opinion is, and thus it is also hard responding to it. Maybe if you wrote something like "this is what lol-players do, this is what they could do instead" people wouldn´t get so outraged by your references to private conversations with leaders in the industry. Then again, maybe they would. I just think examples would be more constructive. EDIT: I see you actually addressed a lot of my points in your blog, and I have a really hard time understanding why someone would find that offensive. Nevertheless, without reading your blog first the context of your post here is not very clear. Kinda funny, you wrote to give context to your blog, but one has to read your blog to get the context of your reply lol. Anyway, clarifying instead of defending would probably be more constructive. Also: On January 01 2013 14:30 iNcontroL wrote: Too often I focus on the negative. I ended up deleting my reddit account. Not because reddit is evil or a lost cause.. but because I read too much negativity and allowed it to paint for me the picture that was that side of the community. I also got countless positive messages and supportive stuff.. I am also not a perfect human being and I am in the public eye so I will ALWAYS have people that plain don't like me, hate me or whatever.. if I allow those people to deter me I am undeserved of my station. People, you have heard me discuss this before and you have seen me work on this.. know that I am constantly working on this. I believe not having a reddit account for the time being is the right thing for me. One day I hope to be more in control of myself and capable of having outreach to the community at large without allowing it depress me, anger me etc.. Don't give up on us! | ||
Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
Thats said, LOL is still require no less practice and dedication when it comes to pro plays. I think we have to have an open mind and compare games with not only how hard it is, but also, how much effort it would take to be at the top. In that regard I don't see how LOL players work less than any other games pro-gamers. Just look at the NA scene comparing to Asian/EU teams. NA pros practice less and never archive anything for the last one year at international level. | ||
[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
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TemujinGK
United States483 Posts
On January 29 2013 11:30 NeoIllusions wrote: I'm obviously over simplifying things here but the lack of denying is one of the top reasons I hear as to why Dota is deeper or more complex than LoL. this is the predominant arguement that I've heard, but also that I subscribe to. | ||
BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On January 29 2013 11:30 NeoIllusions wrote: I'm obviously over simplifying things here but the lack of denying is one of the top reasons I hear as to why Dota is deeper or more complex than LoL. Is there a more complex explanation because I don't get it. I always thought that denying thing was so infuriating to dota players because it makes it easier to completely dominate weaker opponents. Lane control in lol is as important as in dota, is it not? The main difference is that you can't remove momentum from your wave. Only the enemy tower can. So it's like having to position something but you can only push it and not pull it. Obviously not saying that it is harder in lol, but the mechanic just seems different, not necessarily "deeper". | ||
Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
On January 29 2013 22:53 BlueSpace wrote: Is there a more complex explanation because I don't get it. I always thought that denying thing was so infuriating to dota players because it makes it easier to completely dominate weaker opponents. Lane control in lol is as important as in dota, is it not? The main difference is that you can't remove momentum from your wave. Only the enemy tower can. So it's like having to position something but you can only push it and not pull it. Obviously not saying that it is harder in lol, but the mechanic just seems different, not necessarily "deeper". denying is complex in both games, and generally people using it as an argument have not played both (or either...) games. Not on a relevant level, at least. .... Cue the internet warriors going "I PLAYED 10 GAMES OF LOL I KNOW HOW EASY IT IS" | ||
Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On January 29 2013 22:53 BlueSpace wrote: Is there a more complex explanation because I don't get it. I always thought that denying thing was so infuriating to dota players because it makes it easier to completely dominate weaker opponents. Lane control in lol is as important as in dota, is it not? The main difference is that you can't remove momentum from your wave. Only the enemy tower can. So it's like having to position something but you can only push it and not pull it. Obviously not saying that it is harder in lol, but the mechanic just seems different, not necessarily "deeper". There's a way more complex argument but I think it's all relative. Denying doesn't actually factor into the game as much as people talk about. Middle is the only lane that regularly gets contested where there is a big battle for lane control. Denying is only a part of this battle though since there's also terrain that you have to control. Outside of mid Denying is mainly about keeping lane at a certain place since the enemy normally gets pushed off the lane by supports. Then you also get neutral camp pulling to deny waves of creeps or even stack up 2 waves so you can easier push a tower. In general there's just more to do outside of straight hero interactions. Honestly I don't see why the denying mechanic is always highlighted, there far more interesting and important mechanics in the game that add depth than denying. I'm sure if you really wanted to know you could PM TheYango. He might be willing to get a more detailed and better explanation. I mean denying past laning phase almost never happens. Only in few situations where you w ant a lane to stay pushed does it happen but that isn't really how the game is played currently. It's a cheap excuse people use to bash one game over the other. | ||
Josh111
United States239 Posts
On January 29 2013 11:05 6BiT wrote: Where does the illusion of dota having such a massive skill cap over LoL come from? its not an illusion, its fact. Leagues was made to be to more casual and easier to play then dota. The first example would be denying and that's what most people talk about when comparing leagues and dota but it goes so much deeper then that. The characters in dota are far more complex than the characters in leagues. Im not saying this to bash lol, i have been playing lol since closed beta and have 1800 wins. I tried dota and played around 50 games but just couldn't get into it and one of the reasons why is that its far harder to play then leagues. | ||
CeriseCherries
6170 Posts
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