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On April 04 2015 01:59 plotspot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 01:35 Hider wrote:On April 04 2015 00:49 JulDraGoN wrote:What about that spell Ultrasonic Pulse that Spectre had in the WoL campaign? Like an EMP for biological units, you make it only affect bio and reduce the area of effect. Maybe too strong? Stun sucks in RTS games. Way too unforgiveable and not exciting micro. I assume you don't like the Infestor then?^^ But since you like "zoning out" I may guess you think the Ravager is fine?
WOL infestor has 0 countermicro (fungal was most lame ability ever). HOTS infestor is marginally better. Ravager skillshot is awesome but I think the unit need tweaks in different ways.
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On April 04 2015 00:00 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 23:04 Pr0wler wrote: The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran. "Only viable". You forgot the disruptor? Or are you suggesting that you found a way to use the ghost vs an invincible moving ball of death ;D? I don't think that the disruptor will be really good against terran bio. The terran units are just too mobile. Any competent player will be able to just walk out of the way of the disruptor and then kill it.... 300 gas down the drain.
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I think a cool idea to make snipe more micro-intensive and reactive is to make it a buffered ability that gets charged up. My idea is that the terran user casts snipe onto a point, and the ghost takes 2-3 seconds to focus. While focusing, a red line appears indicating the path of the snipe shot. This makes it cool because its now dodgeable and the terran user will have to predict or cut-off unit movement to guarantee a hit. Also make the shot a projectile so that it stops on the first unit this hits. Or maybe give it a splash effect as well. This makes positional play more exciting (protoss players will try to protect their HTs by keeping them in the back / surrounded in the middle of their army). Of course, we would have to buff the damage and energy costs to make it worth it now.
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On April 03 2015 23:04 Pr0wler wrote: The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran. Vipers outrange Ghosts by a huge margin.
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On April 04 2015 02:12 Xyik wrote: I think a cool idea to make snipe more micro-intensive and reactive is to make it a buffered ability that gets charged up. My idea is that the terran user casts snipe onto a point, and the ghost takes 2-3 seconds to focus. While focusing, a red line appears indicating the path of the snipe shot. This makes it cool because its now dodgeable and the terran user will have to predict or cut-off unit movement to guarantee a hit. Also make the shot a projectile so that it stops on the first unit this hits. Or maybe give it a splash effect as well. This makes positional play more exciting (protoss players will try to protect their HTs by keeping them in the back / surrounded in the middle of their army). Of course, we would have to buff the damage and energy costs to make it worth it now.
I don't know how this would work, but I wanna requote anyone who suggests abilities w/ countermicro and how it interacts with the enemy.
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On April 04 2015 02:16 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2015 23:04 Pr0wler wrote: The role of the ghost in LOTV will be to shut down the only viable AoE damage of the protoss in TvP(that is after the colossus nerfs). You can always use it against Vipers too... Just until now, nobody really bothered to build vipers against terran. Vipers outrange Ghosts by a huge margin. EMP range - 10 Snipe range - 10 Abduct range - 9 Source : Liquipedia.
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Along with experimenting with adjusting the numbers associated with the ghost, the emp could gain a silence effect that prevents units from using certain abilities for a short time. In the case of the disrupter it would not cancel the effect but prevent it from activating for a short time if it is hit with an emp first. Another possibiltiy could be to provide emp with a short knockback effect. The name for Emp should probably be changed if it gets these effects
I also like the idea of the ghost being able to call in a 'drop pod'.
The ghost academy gets another upgrade that allows units to load into it and the ghost can call in a drop much like they call in a nuclear strike but perhaps with a shorter delay.
The 'drop pod' could itself be a new unit, of course also available without requiring the ghost to call it in, that would just be an extra ability. I think there would be a lot of potential with that. Perhaps some kind of transport/combat engineer with its own abilities.
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My suggestion is that when ghost do "hold fire" and holster their rifle, they move faster.
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Are nukes the same in LotV ? because they aren't as exciting as they were in BW (meaning they tickle base in SC2).
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On April 04 2015 03:45 FFW_Rude wrote: Are nukes the same in LotV ? because they aren't as exciting as they were in BW (meaning they tickle base in SC2). I think they're used more in sc2 than brood war though, because broodwar nukes were 6 supply.
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United States12181 Posts
I think EMP is probably okay as-is. It's not great, but it's not very problematic or boring either.
I never liked Snipe. I'd rather see something like a Gravity Bomb (or a Psi Emitter if we want it to be anti-bio only, like Snipe) that sucks all ground units in a small AoE to a central location for a fraction of a second. Something with about the same AoE as a Psi Storm, which is instant, which just moves units in the AoE to its center point. Like a Dark Seer Vacuum. Want to keep Zerglings away from your Tanks? Position the AoE so that you move only the lings away. See a deathball? Hit the AoE in the center and drop a Siege Mode Tank for max zero-point splash damage. Enemy Templar raining down Storms from high ground? Hit the AoE on the low ground and drag them down to your units.
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I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a nuke in a pro game. That needs to change
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What would happen if the ghost had stim?
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On April 04 2015 03:48 royalroadweed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 03:45 FFW_Rude wrote: Are nukes the same in LotV ? because they aren't as exciting as they were in BW (meaning they tickle base in SC2). I think they're used more in sc2 than brood war though, because broodwar nukes were 6 supply.
Nukes were rare but awesome... (Remember Boxer's nexus snipes with blind observers ?) In SC2 nukes are rare and not awesome
Hope they'll twitch them somehow. Could be something more usefull for ghosts.
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On April 04 2015 05:00 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2015 03:48 royalroadweed wrote:On April 04 2015 03:45 FFW_Rude wrote: Are nukes the same in LotV ? because they aren't as exciting as they were in BW (meaning they tickle base in SC2). I think they're used more in sc2 than brood war though, because broodwar nukes were 6 supply. Nukes were rare but awesome... (Remember Boxer's nexus snipes with blind observers ?) In SC2 nukes are rare and not awesome Hope they'll twitch them somehow. Could be something more usefull for ghosts.
But a lot rarer in BW. Nukes were used numerous time in SC2.
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On April 04 2015 03:35 royalroadweed wrote: My suggestion is that when ghost do "hold fire" and holster their rifle, they move faster.
This is the coolest suggestion I've seen thus far. +1 for this.
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My own suggestions:
Snipe (might need to change the name on this since it's not really a snipe anymore)
- Energy cost increased from 25 -> 75
- Damage increased from 25 (+25 to Psionic) -> 75
- Ground only. Cannot hit revealed burrowed units.
- Snipe now does aoe line damage extending up to a range of 10.
When activated it should have increased sensitivity making it difficult to aim. Also emits a red laser to allow the opponent to dodge, similar to how nukes show a tiny dot.
EMP
- Make this a projectile similar to fungal growth.
Nukes
- Arm silo increased from 1-> 2 nukes per academy
- Damage reduced from 300 (+200 to buildings) -> 150 (+100 to buildings)
- Nukes now leave behind a fallout aoe with a duration of 15 sec. Biological units take 10 damage/sec while in range.
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Imaginary Patch Notes: The Ghost's Attack Damage has been changed from 10(+10 vs light) to 10(+10 vs biological) This does not change the ghost's damage output against most protoss ground units. Indeed the only units affected are the phoenix, the oracle and the interceptor which will receive less damage in the future. However, we hope to see more ghost usage against zerg in the future with this change. This still should not make the ghost a costefficient fighter against zerg on its own, but in lategame situations in which zerg can bring many spellcasters such as the infestor or the viper the investment for ghosts has been very high given that the unit was very weak in combat all around.
The Snipe ability has been reworked now dealing 50 damage ignoring armor. The target requirements have been changed from biological to ground. If a targeted unit moves during the snipes 0.5second channeling duration the snipe will miss the target and deal no damage at all. A sound effect for a missed shot has been added. Previously snipe has been mainly used against high templar in the PvT matchup. But it overlaps in that purpose with the EMP ability of the ghost. To make snipe more powerful the damage was severely increased and can now be used on all ground targets. However, it cannot be used on moving units efficiently and opponents who pay attention when ghost are close. This should make the snipe very powerful in combination with its cloak ability to infiltrate enemy territory and quickly take out unmicroed targets while keeping it unreliable as a spamable ability to snipe whole armies when they are being controlled.
In summary: the ghosts keeps its splash support vs Protoss shields with EMP the ghosts stays a great antispellcaster unit through EMP, but loses its ability to snipe moving units during a battle snipe can now heavily punish a player that loses track of the ghost's position the ghost overall is a slightly better combat unit against zerg
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What if they were to remove snipe and give the ghost lockdown while moving emp over to raven?
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On April 04 2015 03:55 Tiaraju9 wrote: What would happen if the ghost had stim?
ppl wud rage if that was a case
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Sweden33719 Posts
On April 04 2015 00:44 Hider wrote:In general, I am not a fan of the spellcasters in Sc2, but Ghosts are especially problematic. In my essay below, I first mention the reasons I dislike its current design, and later on I offer an idea for a new Ghost. Some of you guys might agree with parts of it, and others might think my ideas require too much change. But this is just how I wanna see it changed; EMP+ Show Spoiler +Never have I enjoyed spamming EMPs over the protoss army and whenever I offraced I never actually thought "hey that's so fun with the Ghosts draining all of my HTs energy". My logic is that when there is nothing even remotely fun about an ability, scrap it and replace it with something else. I know we have had an EMP in Sc2 for 5 years and in BW for even longer, but right now, it's just a really boring ability and it only really works vs one race. So get rid of it and find other ways to balance terran. Snipe+ Show Spoiler +Pew Pew Pew... Yeh it sounds cool, but unfortunately that's the only cool thing about Snipe. It's a spamable ability with no countermicro and therefore it simply cannot be properly balanced. Keep the snipe sound, but reuse it in a different way, because this snipe-ability needs to be removed.
Cloak and Nuke+ Show Spoiler +Unlike EMP and Snipe, there is potential here. Running around with cloaked Ghosts and nuking enemy bases or armies.... it's a kinda cool thing, and there definitely is alot of countermicro here. Perhaps even a bit, but luckily this is more of a numbers-issue than a general concept flaw.
Suggestions+ Show Spoiler +Okay, so what is the role of the Ghost gonna be if it doesn't have Snipe and EMP? First of all, I wanna promote the nuke-role further. I wanna see more ghosts cloaking around the map and nuking enemy bases or zoning out the enemy army. Secondly, it does ofc need utility with the army, but rather than thinking in terms of offensive abilities, I believe the Ghost could function better if it had defensive abilities.
New Ability 1: Spellresist+ Show Spoiler +The ghost can activate Spellresist and a large bubble around the Ghost appears (like Guardian Shield) and all enemy spell- and splash damage is reduced by 20-30%. Yes, this isn't a super microintensive thing, but it's not really needed here. Rather, this is a way of giving bio a way to be less glass-cannon'ish against Fungal, Ultras, Storm, Disruptors and Colossus.... without being a hardcounter/anti-micro thing. It's the kind of ability that is supposed to feel "not frustrating" while at the same time give the Ghost a clear role in the game. New Ability 2: Defensive Matrix+ Show Spoiler +Target a friendly unit and temporarily increase its HP by XXX. While Spellresist will synergize better w/ bio, Defensive Matrix works better with mech. E.g. you can make that Thor in the front slightly more tanky. If the enemy continues to focus fire it, they are in for a rough time. New Ability 3: Nuke+ Show Spoiler +So I actually spent some hours in the editor previously, and I discovered that the following changes feels the nicest: - Time it takes for Nuke to land = roughly 10-12 seconds. - Damage reduced from 300 to 175 - Splash damage changed so it oneshots workers in a much lower radius - Nuke research time reduced to 15-20 seconds (from 60 I believe) - Nuke cost reduced to 50/50 from 100/100
The effect of these changes is to make the Nuke somewhat more reliable and cost-efficient... as a zoning tool ofc. The enemy should still be able to spot it the majority of the time, but if he doesn't spot it (which is more likely to occur w/ these changes), he is not gonna lose his whole army. It's a big deal but not something that automatically is gonna result in a win. New Ability 4: Stim+ Show Spoiler +Yeh this is the most controversial suggestion probably. Some may initally say "nonono you can't do that, it's not intended to be like a Marine or Maurauder". And they are right in that its not intended to be llike that. But there are two reasons I want to see it added:
(1) Ghost needs a mobility ability to further promote cloacked harass play (2) I just hate having Ghosts w/ my army. It messes up control grups. Adding in stim makes it more simple to control bio + ghost as you can have Ghosts with your MMM in one control group.
With regards to the latter, I also know a lot of people will say that it's good to have different control groups because it (a) rewards you for splitting up your army or (b) because it increases the skillcap.
The former complaint is straight up wrong. Ghosts in Sc2 are typically really deathball'ish and pure bio is one of the most multitaskbased compositions in the game.
The second complaint is correct, however, I don't think its a fun way of increasing the skillcap. I want the game to feel easy to play while having endless micro opportunites. Micro means stuff like splitting, focus firing, pulling back injured units, casting abilites well and dropship pick-up interactions. 1a2a3a isn't micro for me, but just an annoyance.
But, don't overfocus on the stim-part here. There are other types of possilbiites. For instance it could also just be straight up faster when cloaked (instead of getting stim). Last remarks+ Show Spoiler +This Ghost will overall promote longer battles, it will work vs all races and it's not a "prevent stuff from happening" spellcaster. The intention is that you have maybe with your army for defensive matrix and spellresist, and then maybe 2-3 that you send around the map and nuke your army or perhaps use the stimmed Ghosts to snipe off workers or other isolated enemy units.
In regards to having a more damagefocussed spellcaster, I reserved that role for the Raven. Imo PDD needs a real replacement and Seeker Missile needs to be tuned as well, but that's an essay for a different day.
Tactically it also has more utility in the Nuke being more reliable at zoning out the enemy army.
Not a big fan of the proposed new abilities, I think they are a bit too passive, while I feel the ghost should be more of an independent toolbox... The ghost is like an assassin/spy archetype, while those abilities feel more like they'd fit a medic or something.
People who suggested reworks to snipe where it can be blocked by interceding units, maybe that could work (a la Caitlyn's ult in LoL, and I'm sure some dota character as well originally ), though I think it would need an even bigger range in that case (maybe work like a siege tank where it has longer range than it has vision so you can benefit from scanning and long distance snipe).
On April 04 2015 11:03 CrazyBread92 wrote: What if they were to remove snipe and give the ghost lockdown while moving emp over to raven? Lockdown is interesting and would help terran against warp prism harass a LOT I think. Bit worried it'd be too strong vs disruptors, although I guess it would create counter micro at least.
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