I'm not going to state that it's definitely imbalanced but it's trying pretty bloody hard to be imbalanced. Build order's pretty simple, you make 6 raxes and 2 gasses in some order and keep sending reapers at the Zerg, stopping once it seems you can't really attack anymore. Thanks to the grenade queens are much easier to handle and speedlings no longer counter reapers quite as effectively as before. Roaches are good but very expensive and once there's 10-15 reapers out the repeated grenade tossing prevents them from engaging properly.
This build doesn't necessarily kill Zerg outright, though it certainly can, but I'm yet to play a single Zerg that can handle the Reaper onslaught without being significantly behind afterwards. I've provided a bunch of replays displaying the opener, make of them what you will. I'm not entirely convinced the build is completely imbalanced as most of the Zergs I've played I'm pretty sure I'm heavily favoured against in HotS, but hey, I'm not the best Terran in the world either so who knows? What I can say is that the new Reaper grenade threatens to break TvZ early game over it's knee.
I'm as surprised as anyone else that the Reaper was buffed this way. The unit surely needed a bit of help in Legacy since the Early game has significantly changed but I was expecting a few extra hitpoints or damage or a reduced build time or something. It's a well designed unit but it's very finely balanced to the HotS early game and just needs a bit of tweaking to fit into Legacy, not a weird bloody grenade thing.
I also cannot speak as to the Reaper's effectiveness in TvT and TvP as I haven't amassed them there. I'm guessing it's pretty much business as usual since those races have ranged units highly effective at fighting Reapers and dodging grenades but hey who knows?
EDIT- Forgot to mention this the first time so here goes.
As it's a beta and our duty is to break it as hard as possible, I call upon all Terrans to amass Reapers against the Zergs. I'm just one guy, I need more data than my own replay folder. Let's get the reaper changed again people!
It's beyond hilarious how SC2 is completely stuck in time. Giving such an ability to a unit able to bypass normal terrain as early as 2 minutes while LotV steps on the accelerator, how could it possibly go wrong.
So the build basically looks like what iaguz described.
Cool idea! I think we need builds like this during beta to really under the limits of the game design. Fingers crossed that I get an opportunity to mess around with it myself!
My only hope is that Blizzard does not resort to keeping this ability by only adding an upgrade to it with a factory requirement, cause I am sure nobody will get that, unless you could stim a reaper LOL
On April 30 2015 09:04 ROOTiaguz wrote: I'm not going to state that it's definitely imbalanced but it's trying pretty bloody hard to be imbalanced. Build order's pretty simple, you make 6 raxes and 2 gasses in some order and keep sending reapers at the Zerg, stopping once it seems you can't really attack anymore. Thanks to the grenade queens are much easier to handle and speedlings no longer counter reapers quite as effectively as before. Roaches are good but very expensive and once there's 10-15 reapers out the repeated grenade tossing prevents them from engaging properly.
This build doesn't necessarily kill Zerg outright, though it certainly can, but I'm yet to play a single Zerg that can handle the Reaper onslaught without being significantly behind afterwards. I've provided a bunch of replays displaying the opener, make of them what you will. I'm not entirely convinced the build is completely imbalanced as most of the Zergs I've played I'm pretty sure I'm heavily favoured against in HotS, but hey, I'm not the best Terran in the world either so who knows? What I can say is that the new Reaper grenade threatens to break TvZ early game over it's knee.
I'm as surprised as anyone else that the Reaper was buffed this way. The unit surely needed a bit of help in Legacy since the Early game has significantly changed but I was expecting a few extra hitpoints or damage or a reduced build time or something. It's a well designed unit but it's very finely balanced to the HotS early game and just needs a bit of tweaking to fit into Legacy, not a weird bloody grenade thing.
I also cannot speak as to the Reaper's effectiveness in TvT and TvP as I haven't amassed them there. I'm guessing it's pretty much business as usual since those races have ranged units highly effective at fighting Reapers and dodging grenades but hey who knows?
EDIT- Forgot to mention this the first time so here goes.
As it's a beta and our duty is to break it as hard as possible, I call upon all Terrans to amass Reapers against the Zergs. I'm just one guy, I need more data than my own replay folder. Let's get the reaper changed again people!
I'll test it out today. If it is imba obv blizzard will most likely make it a researchable upgrade for mid/late game.
On April 30 2015 10:05 PowerOfOne wrote: My only hope is that Blizzard does not resort to keeping this ability by only adding an upgrade to it with a factory requirement, cause I am sure nobody will get that, unless you could stim a reaper LOL
Interesting random anecdote: Blizzard originally came up with the idea of Medivacs because Medics were too slow to keep up with Reapers.
That is awesome Iaguz. You are 100% right to try to break things (though, it's SC2 Q&A job to check that)
I think that the 10 sec CD is the worst offender. It should be a 30~40 second CD. It shouldn't be unlocked by high tech stuff like a factory, just a much longer CD.
is the splash ability built-in or is it an upgrade? if it's an upgrade (say factory or armory), then it can't be abused like this early game but still can be useful later on (as blizzard originally intended)
On April 30 2015 09:47 eviltomahawk wrote: Somewhere, Idra wakes up in a cold sweat, sensing a familiar disturbance in the meta that he had not felt since.
He then goes "fuck that" and goes right back to sleep.
I hope they at least move up the ability into an upgrade at a higher tech level.
So, yeh...not seeing what's so imba about this. Zerg just makes roaches as normal defends this pretty easily. Probably even worse if they morph a few into ravagers.
This is the kind of stuff SC2 needs. Seeing tricks like this pulled off by Pros is the best. Mineral glitching is one off the coolest tricks in Brood War.
On April 30 2015 09:47 eviltomahawk wrote: Somewhere, Idra wakes up in a cold sweat, sensing a familiar disturbance in the meta that he had not felt since.
He then goes "fuck that" and goes right back to sleep.
I hope they at least move up the ability into an upgrade at a higher tech level.
And he constantly hears Morrow say in his head "Blissstering Sandssss"
This is the kind of stuff SC2 needs. Seeing tricks like this pulled off by Pros is the best. Mineral glitching is one off the coolest tricks in Brood War.
keep in mind that being counterintuitive to new players is the thing Blizzard will never have happen and I'm sure they'll just replace it with more spells on every unit
On April 30 2015 19:13 avilo wrote: So, yeh...not seeing what's so imba about this. Zerg just makes roaches as normal defends this pretty easily. Probably even worse if they morph a few into ravagers.
On April 30 2015 09:37 Heyoka wrote: These games are incredible. This is seriously some 2010 "build lots of reapers and run around" level shit, I love it. It's amazing.
2010-2011 were the glory days.
The strategic variation was so much higher than it is now, and pre-Infestor days the game was amazing to watch. I just watched Nestea vs Boxer (MKP) for the first time and I really enjoyed it.
Despite the cheese-fest, the game feels so much slower, giving players more time to think and micro. And it is easier on the person watchin too.
On April 30 2015 09:04 ROOTiaguz wrote: I'm not going to state that it's definitely imbalanced but it's trying pretty bloody hard to be imbalanced. Build order's pretty simple, you make 6 raxes and 2 gasses in some order and keep sending reapers at the Zerg, stopping once it seems you can't really attack anymore. Thanks to the grenade queens are much easier to handle and speedlings no longer counter reapers quite as effectively as before. Roaches are good but very expensive and once there's 10-15 reapers out the repeated grenade tossing prevents them from engaging properly.
This build doesn't necessarily kill Zerg outright, though it certainly can, but I'm yet to play a single Zerg that can handle the Reaper onslaught without being significantly behind afterwards. I've provided a bunch of replays displaying the opener, make of them what you will. I'm not entirely convinced the build is completely imbalanced as most of the Zergs I've played I'm pretty sure I'm heavily favoured against in HotS, but hey, I'm not the best Terran in the world either so who knows? What I can say is that the new Reaper grenade threatens to break TvZ early game over it's knee.
I'm as surprised as anyone else that the Reaper was buffed this way. The unit surely needed a bit of help in Legacy since the Early game has significantly changed but I was expecting a few extra hitpoints or damage or a reduced build time or something. It's a well designed unit but it's very finely balanced to the HotS early game and just needs a bit of tweaking to fit into Legacy, not a weird bloody grenade thing.
I also cannot speak as to the Reaper's effectiveness in TvT and TvP as I haven't amassed them there. I'm guessing it's pretty much business as usual since those races have ranged units highly effective at fighting Reapers and dodging grenades but hey who knows?
EDIT- Forgot to mention this the first time so here goes.
As it's a beta and our duty is to break it as hard as possible, I call upon all Terrans to amass Reapers against the Zergs. I'm just one guy, I need more data than my own replay folder. Let's get the reaper changed again people!
I'll test it out today. If it is imba obv blizzard will most likely make it a researchable upgrade for mid/late game.
What's the point of doing that if reapers are an early game unit only?
On April 30 2015 09:37 Heyoka wrote: These games are incredible. This is seriously some 2010 "build lots of reapers and run around" level shit, I love it. It's amazing.
2010-2011 were the glory days.
The strategic variation was so much higher than it is now, and pre-Infestor days the game was amazing to watch. I just watched Nestea vs Boxer (MKP) for the first time and I really enjoyed it.
Despite the cheese-fest, the game feels so much slower, giving players more time to think and micro. And it is easier on the person watchin too.
I agree with this. TvZ in particular up until the queen patch was probably the peak of sc2. HotS is more intense, which can be fun as well, but it also feels incredibly rigid with little breathing room for variety.
This game was a prime example of what 2011 TvZ could be. Just excellent pacing throughout a very exciting and diverse game.
On May 01 2015 01:25 Grumbels wrote: What's the point of doing that if reapers are an early game unit only?
Well that's the point, with this they might not be just early game units anymore.
I was just watching fenner's stream and he played against Beastyqt. Beasty wasn't using more than initial 3 Reapers, but when they use their grenades and when they push units back that animation lasts for 1-2 seconds which gives Terran time to deal a lot of damage with Tanks/Marines/whatever.
I don't know, having 5-6 Reapers in the mid game doesn't take much from your army and can do wonders in those Zergling, Baneling, Mutalisk engagements with your army, or when a ton of Zealots are charging towards you, especially good because you knocked them back and they've wasted their charge. You can even spread your Marines with these grenades in some situations against Banelings but don't really know how effective that will be.
These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
Haven't seen the replays but it seems like it would be pretty easy to scout. Don't you think it's just because the zergs don't know how to react? A few spines and some roaches would surely shut this down?
On May 01 2015 10:59 Huxii wrote: Haven't seen the replays but it seems like it would be pretty easy to scout. Don't you think it's just because the zergs don't know how to react? A few spines and some roaches would surely shut this down?
did you even read the thread? he addressed roaches in like the first paragraph. you are aware iaguz is a progamer right?
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
Bring back the old days of 9 o clock Lost Temple where you could force your probe through the wall-in with a pylon.
Haha, I still remember vividly escaping from a Terran wall-in at 6 o'clock with that glitch; my Probe was chased by a Marine, and just before it died the Pylon propelled it outwards. I showed it to my friend and now, when we witness a SC2 Probe living more than 15 seconds against the smooth SC2 Zerglings, we say “look, The Probe came back”. I also remember a hilarious Dragoon pogo near the cliff at 9 o'clock LT from some brown (?) Protoss, resulting in Dragoons actually cliffwalking down in a confused sea of mechanic limbs. Back then, this was the first time we were witnessing that. Some Pimpest Play for sure! But all of that is gone with the great wind of “modernity”.
The new grenades are pretty good, someone 2 rax reapered me in ZvT, it's pretty easy to hold (not sure he was the strongest of players) One thing that gets me is the nades bug the drones out if the jump into the space of where a building/object is and stops them from mining until you manually click on them not that I'm complaining.
I quite like the grenade just needs some mild tweaks.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
Honestly BW had a shit ton of spells as well. People are overreacting.
I have faced a reaper build, but i was very fine as I do a 14/14 speedling expand. The big problem is more there is not real meta, so nobody really knows what the standard build you must use in the MU a fortiori when new patch comes, should you drone scout, should you build a safe opener with the ability to defend while punishing a creedy opening, should you play creedy and you'r OK vs cheese ?
BW had a lot of spells it's just that they were shit and you almost never saw them. The game was so difficult to play mechanically that it wouldn't have been worth it trying to mix in some of these abilities so I guess we just sort of regarded them as amusing extras. Once in a blue moon someone would use Disruption web or Optical flare or lockdown and holy fucking shit that's incredible, but we knew that the game functioned absolutely fine even though it has so much pointless shit in it.
On May 01 2015 22:42 ROOTiaguz wrote: BW had a lot of spells it's just that they were shit and you almost never saw them. The game was so difficult to play mechanically that it wouldn't have been worth it trying to mix in some of these abilities so I guess we just sort of regarded them as amusing extras. Once in a blue moon someone would use Disruption web or Optical flare or lockdown and holy fucking shit that's incredible, but we knew that the game functioned absolutely fine even though it has so much pointless shit in it.
Imagine if due to an accident of balance, people would use all those spells frequently and then later it'd constantly be cited as a key feature of Brood War's greatness. We'd be having a different conversation today than the current one concerning the dreaded mobafication(tm) of the game. :p
Honestly most spells work well in Brood War even if you don't see them much. I think that even forcefield would be intriguing in that game as a Dark Archon spell, maybe with higher energy cost and the inability to block perfectly. The issue with Starcraft 2 is that Blizzard didn't realize how much of an impact changing the pathfinding and introducing smartcast would have, so they never adequately compensated by adjusting spell design. Imo, objectively creating interesting spells is harder for SC2, therefore it requires more thought put into the design which was unfortunately lacking.
On May 02 2015 00:05 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: first build im gonna go with once I fire up that beta baby!
thx Ethan
The thought I have all the time when starting SC2, until I realize that there is still no select matchup option and having a useful build order traning enviroment is still a fairy tail.
there is still no select matchup option there is still no select matchup option there is still no select matchup option there is still no select matchup option there is still no select matchup option
Most important change for Starcraft is still a dream.
Protoss has 3 more, Zerg has 4 more, and Terran has 3 more in SC2 than in BW.
And the SC2 page hasn't been updated with any of the Oracle's 3 spells, Medivac's Afterburners, Swarm Hosts' Spawn Locusts, or Viper's Consume.
Furthermore, new LotV unit spells/abilities are not counted: Immortal's new activated shield, Reaper's new grenade, Tempest's new damage over time, Carrier's new interceptor release, Battlecruiser's new warp jump, Ravager's corrosive bile, Cyclone's target lock, Adept's shadow, and Disruptor's explosion.
So we're at 24 spells/abilities in BW to SC2's 49. SC2 about has twice as many spells/abilities as BW.
And sure SC2 has a lot more spells, but are there any SC2 spells not bolded above as strong as BW's Stasis Field, Maelstrom, Dark Swarm, Spawn Broodling, Lockdown, Defensive Matrix, or Irradiate?
Some data for you.
On April 11 2015 06:39 TheDwf wrote: The SC2 designers had probably little idea about what they were doing when they forsook the “mechanical barriers” from SC1. Now it takes 3 times the effort to even think about vaguely viable stuff because “smartcasting” threatens to make every spell over-efficient, the pathing engine makes army stacking explosive, the unlimited unit selection makes it extremely easy to maneuver and capitalize on advantages, etc. Thus quality of design has to fully compensate for every single of those aspects. This is not undoable by any mean, but it's hellishly hard. As you sow, so shall you reap.
Any decrease in the “mechanical difficulty” department has to be compensated somewhere in strategic complexity, otherwise it's far too trivial to put the “Knowledge” aspect into actions to reach victory. But as people would realize over years, strategy is intimely connected with mechanics.
(...)
The original pact of SC2 was “less burdensome mechanics, more exciting action”. But kicked out through the doorway, mechanics do come back through the window.
(...)
Unfortunately, the Blizzsters were heavy-handed, and the intrusive creationist approach is a huge problem in SC2. This is directly correlated to the original philosophy of the “holy esport mantra”. As a result, the SC2 crew is trying too hard. They need to relax, really. More control for the player = less control from the designer. This does not mean less work; this means working better. The main problem with many SC2 creations is that they come with attached, internal “directions for use”. But the instruction manual cannot be a 800 pages treaty, nor should it be excessively incorporated into the unit itself.
There are different temporalities within the game which have to be carefully calibrated to ensure the survival of control and, ultimately, sense. The quality of the game flows from its “control architecture”. But its identity too.
It's always the same thing. Nature abhors a vacuum.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
Honestly BW had a shit ton of spells as well. People are overreacting.
-that were mid to late game and some rarely used, you forgot to add.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Protoss has 3 more, Zerg has 4 more, and Terran has 3 more in SC2 than in BW.
And the SC2 page hasn't been updated with any of the Oracle's 3 spells, Medivac's Afterburners, Swarm Hosts' Spawn Locusts, or Viper's Consume.
Furthermore, new LotV unit spells/abilities are not counted: Immortal's new activated shield, Reaper's new grenade, Tempest's new damage over time, Carrier's new interceptor release, Battlecruiser's new warp jump, Ravager's corrosive bile, Cyclone's target lock, Adept's shadow, and Disruptor's explosion.
So we're at 24 spells/abilities in BW to SC2's 49. SC2 about has twice as many spells/abilities as BW.
And sure SC2 has a lot more spells, but are there any SC2 spells not bolded above as strong as BW's Stasis Field, Maelstrom, Dark Swarm, Spawn Broodling, Lockdown, Defensive Matrix, or Irradiate?
Some data for you.
On the other hand, SC2 seems to have less upgrades than Brood War. I checked for zerg and in LotV they preemptively removed the lurker upgrade, the swarm host lost its upgrade and one of the hydralisk upgrades is merged. They also removed tunneling claws. Honestly, if Blizzard cared they would remove the infestor upgrades as well since they're pointless. What remains are speed upgrades for the hydralisk, roach, zergling, baneling and overlord and some unused other ones left over from Brood War. I guess when gameplay is so fast all you have time for are speed upgrades.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
There is no "strategy" in MOBA. And what you state here is fancily phrased ridiculous exaggerations. And I really dislike it when people make exaggerations to support their claims - it shifts discussion from topic to discussing how much of exaggeration that was.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
There is no "strategy" in MOBA. And what you state here is fancily phrased ridiculous exaggerations. And I really dislike it when people make exaggerations to support their claims - it shifts discussion from topic to discussing how much of exaggeration that was.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
There is a ton of strategy in MOBAs.
Hero selection strategy. Item selection strategy. When and where to fight. Pushing towers early vs. farming. Deathballing vs. split pushing. Early/mid/game timing attacks depending on hero composition.
Back to the original topic though, this sounds pretty epic. I remember early WoL. It was like the Wild West. Such fun memories. So many good Marauder memes.
Got beta yesterday, so today I will be on and I will MOST DEFINITLY try this
On May 02 2015 01:47 Barrin wrote: Actually, that new viper ability is kinda like Irradiate. Irradiate is better though.
Yes, it's a revamped Irradiate. And unsurprisingly, it doesn't work at all in the SC2 temporal environment. Just like with the old Fungal, the effort/effect ratio is off. Players found about Marines vs Banelings splitting thanks to a happy accident, so now the developers are abusing the gold vein but it's already exhausted. Betting on nerfs/redesign/complaints as soon as Vipers become a staple.
The grenade animation looks soooo silly. It just feels out of place and unrealistic. The idea is OK, but I really think they have to work on the animation.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
There is no "strategy" in MOBA. And what you state here is fancily phrased ridiculous exaggerations. And I really dislike it when people make exaggerations to support their claims - it shifts discussion from topic to discussing how much of exaggeration that was.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
There is a ton of strategy in MOBAs.
Hero selection strategy. Item selection strategy. When and where to fight. Pushing towers early vs. farming. Deathballing vs. split pushing. Early/mid/game timing attacks depending on hero composition.
I have idea what I'm talking about - I play DotA. The only real strategy in MOBA is hero selection - you have full access to all options and multitude of combinations. After that you're limited to your spells, viable items, capabilities of your draft and so on - you need to make tactical decisions, but not strategical. That's why what is called a "pocket strategy" is actually a pocket draft - your game plan is predefined after hero picks and what matters is execution. But hero picks are not the game - rather pre-game - hence "no strategy".
Back to the topic - no amount of spells added will make SC2 a MOBA as long as full amount of options is available to you - and adding spell to the unit who was notorious for being useless after the first couple of minutes is actually making game more strategical.
On May 02 2015 01:47 Barrin wrote: Actually, that new viper ability is kinda like Irradiate. Irradiate is better though.
Yes, it's a revamped Irradiate. And unsurprisingly, it doesn't work at all in the SC2 temporal environment. Just like with the old Fungal, the effort/effect ratio is off. Players found about Marines vs Banelings splitting thanks to a happy accident, so now the developers are abusing the gold vein but it's already exhausted. Betting on nerfs/redesign/complaints as soon as Vipers become a staple.
Especially since it's basically just "seeker missile but with a DoT".
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
I bet most people who meet you in real life hate you.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
I bet most people who meet you in real life hate you.
HAHAHAHAHA
His manner of speech gets really annoying sometimes, but he makes good points.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
There is no "strategy" in MOBA. And what you state here is fancily phrased ridiculous exaggerations. And I really dislike it when people make exaggerations to support their claims - it shifts discussion from topic to discussing how much of exaggeration that was.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
There is a ton of strategy in MOBAs.
Hero selection strategy. Item selection strategy. When and where to fight. Pushing towers early vs. farming. Deathballing vs. split pushing. Early/mid/game timing attacks depending on hero composition.
I have idea what I'm talking about - I play DotA. The only real strategy in MOBA is hero selection - you have full access to all options and multitude of combinations. After that you're limited to your spells, viable items, capabilities of your draft and so on - you need to make tactical decisions, but not strategical. That's why what is called a "pocket strategy" is actually a pocket draft - your game plan is predefined after hero picks and what matters is execution. But hero picks are not the game - rather pre-game - hence "no strategy".
Back to the topic - no amount of spells added will make SC2 a MOBA as long as full amount of options is available to you - and adding spell to the unit who was notorious for being useless after the first couple of minutes is actually making game more strategical.
I think you're bad at DotA. Also I don't think you know what tactics are.
Tactic: an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end
So yea, if there are tactical decisions, there is strategy. MOBAs have strategy.
I really wish blizzard would let us have more control of units (damage point), slow down the battles (maybe make normal the standard?), make the economy better (I'm not a fan of the 100/60 HotS method) and remove most of the cooldown abilities.
Honestly, I think if they just kept the economy the same, MAYBE 8 workers starting and removed 1 patch to make it 7 at each base that would go a long way. It would slow the game down a bit overall but speed up the early game and reward 4th bases more than hotS by a good margin.
Right now you basically can't have any early game units with a good ability because its SO easy to just mass them really fast. As Iaguz has aptly illustrated.
So basically anything that is a good "harass" unit becomes an early game "spam" unit instead because of the economy.
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
Sorry to get off the 6 rax reaper thing, but this is probably the most painful thing to witness in all of the LoTV games I have seen. I know were still in the beta, but as time and time goes on were going to see players getting straight to max economy max production with almost no action at all. That is the same exact problem the game faces now.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
There is no "strategy" in MOBA. And what you state here is fancily phrased ridiculous exaggerations. And I really dislike it when people make exaggerations to support their claims - it shifts discussion from topic to discussing how much of exaggeration that was.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
There is a ton of strategy in MOBAs.
Hero selection strategy. Item selection strategy. When and where to fight. Pushing towers early vs. farming. Deathballing vs. split pushing. Early/mid/game timing attacks depending on hero composition.
I have idea what I'm talking about - I play DotA. The only real strategy in MOBA is hero selection - you have full access to all options and multitude of combinations. After that you're limited to your spells, viable items, capabilities of your draft and so on - you need to make tactical decisions, but not strategical. That's why what is called a "pocket strategy" is actually a pocket draft - your game plan is predefined after hero picks and what matters is execution. But hero picks are not the game - rather pre-game - hence "no strategy".
Back to the topic - no amount of spells added will make SC2 a MOBA as long as full amount of options is available to you - and adding spell to the unit who was notorious for being useless after the first couple of minutes is actually making game more strategical.
I think you're bad at DotA. Also I don't think you know what tactics are.
Tactic: an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end
So yea, if there are tactical decisions, there is strategy. MOBAs have strategy.
I really wish blizzard would let us have more control of units (damage point), slow down the battles (maybe make normal the standard?), make the economy better (I'm not a fan of the 100/60 HotS method) and remove most of the cooldown abilities.
I'm nothing special at Dota, but I have my 4k mmr. And your argument is basically "TACTICS IS STRATEGY"? What's next, "WAR IS PIECE" or "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY"? I guess I know, "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH".
And just to make it clear, changing damage point to 0 doesn't give you more control, slowing down battles has its pros and cons, making economy better is not even a suggestion and removing cool down abilities shallows the game.
Just played it, pretty strong indeed but I still won. However it was as much a battle against reaper than one against lag, I am not sure it is unstoppable... Until someone like Maru try it.
One of the good thing, is that ling jumped over the wall while attacking it, which was a funny moment.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
There is no "strategy" in MOBA. And what you state here is fancily phrased ridiculous exaggerations. And I really dislike it when people make exaggerations to support their claims - it shifts discussion from topic to discussing how much of exaggeration that was.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.
There is a ton of strategy in MOBAs.
Hero selection strategy. Item selection strategy. When and where to fight. Pushing towers early vs. farming. Deathballing vs. split pushing. Early/mid/game timing attacks depending on hero composition.
I have idea what I'm talking about - I play DotA. The only real strategy in MOBA is hero selection - you have full access to all options and multitude of combinations. After that you're limited to your spells, viable items, capabilities of your draft and so on - you need to make tactical decisions, but not strategical. That's why what is called a "pocket strategy" is actually a pocket draft - your game plan is predefined after hero picks and what matters is execution. But hero picks are not the game - rather pre-game - hence "no strategy".
Back to the topic - no amount of spells added will make SC2 a MOBA as long as full amount of options is available to you - and adding spell to the unit who was notorious for being useless after the first couple of minutes is actually making game more strategical.
I think you're bad at DotA. Also I don't think you know what tactics are.
Tactic: an action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end
So yea, if there are tactical decisions, there is strategy. MOBAs have strategy.
I really wish blizzard would let us have more control of units (damage point), slow down the battles (maybe make normal the standard?), make the economy better (I'm not a fan of the 100/60 HotS method) and remove most of the cooldown abilities.
I'm nothing special at Dota, but I have my 4k mmr. And your argument is basically "TACTICS IS STRATEGY"? What's next, "WAR IS PIECE" or "FREEDOM IS SLAVERY"? I guess I know, "IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH".
And just to make it clear, changing damage point to 0 doesn't give you more control, slowing down battles has its pros and cons, making economy better is not even a suggestion and removing cool down abilities shallows the game.
I'm not quite sure how when the definition of tactics describes it as a strategy is equal to "WAR IS PEACE" so I'm going to brush over that part.
Changing the damage point to 0 would allow high micro on units, rather then concave and start fighting you would be able to start fighting and readjust where needed. It would not be perfect, and some units probably should not have a 0 damage point. However, I think a lot of the unit would feel vastly more responsive, and allow for a higher levels of micro.
Slowing down battles would have pros and cons, please list of the good or bad you see. My side is that it would allow for more micro in combat. I feel a lot of the large scale battles come down to "concave and fight". With slower fights players would be allowed to focus fire a bit more, split to dodge spells, and have more possibilities to disengage as a fight is going bad. Spells may need a buff, which I would be OK with.
I would like to see an economy that rewards expanding, instead of punishes you for sitting on a low amount of bases. I also am not a fan of how much 48 mineral workers is built into the game. Even in LotV I don't feel like I should get any extra workers, I just need a fourth base a bit quicker to transfer the extra main and natural workers that mine out the half patches. DH is the big suggestion right now, but I hope other ideas get thrown around. By the way Blizz is going, I don't believe DH will even get a chance.z
I feel adding a cooldown ability to every unit shallows the game and turns it in a spam all CDs in a fight. Maybe that is a style that I don't enjoy playing is why, but I have felt really unsatisfied playing against and using the new ability units. Ravager v ravager battles before their nerf are what stick out as very uncomfortable to play. Once numbers go to ~10+ I would end be being so busy spamming corosive bile I couldn't do much else. I was Masters for most of SC2, so nothing special, but any army I build (usually roach/hydra/lurker) that didn't rely on massive amounts of CD ability units was much more fun to move around the map with.
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
Sorry to get off the 6 rax reaper thing, but this is probably the most painful thing to witness in all of the LoTV games I have seen. I know were still in the beta, but as time and time goes on were going to see players getting straight to max economy max production with almost no action at all. That is the same exact problem the game faces now.
It's because we've forgotten how to 2base. We spent so long in the WoL + HotS meta of "3base max deathball" since 2011 that we forgot how to play aggressive. Once everything settles, people will start playing aggressive in early again
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
Sorry to get off the 6 rax reaper thing, but this is probably the most painful thing to witness in all of the LoTV games I have seen. I know were still in the beta, but as time and time goes on were going to see players getting straight to max economy max production with almost no action at all. That is the same exact problem the game faces now.
This is completely false. There are so many ways to attack in lotv that having no action before max economy is super rare, and would probably only happen when less skilled players play against each other.
On May 01 2015 10:30 Ramiz1989 wrote: These grenades needs to be tested a lot, but I really like the idea.
I wouldn't mind them and might actually like them if they are done well, but there is way too many spells in the game now for a RTS game. This isn't a MOBA.
And if the spell usage matter more than strategy, then we have a real problem. And from what saw in WCS with Ravens vs well positioned Sieged Tanks, we are there.
DUDE. Please stop with the "isn't a Moba" shit.
It's not like they took out the rest of the game, ya know the macro? As well as controlling the map, battling for position and recources. It's very much still an RTS. God what a dumb fuck statement.
Yeah, why wouldn't we discuss things in depth when we can send simply erect taboos and close our eyes.
The macro? Surely you refer to this thing bulldozed by excessive automation, which now allows short-sighted users to ask for its very removal because “building depots isn't interesting”? (No kidding, when you use hyper-rationalization to destroy every single part of the sense edifice you always find arbitrary!?)
Controlling the map, with fog of war reigning supreme on half of the map from A to Z 90% of the time duels are played on 4p maps? Good thing that we'll see some country with LotV—too bad it's because Mr. Designer forced us to do so. That is to say, if his clever scheme succeeds, which is of course far from granted.
Battling for position? You probably refer to Colossi automatically falling behind your Charging Zealots and Blinking Stalkers so that the Zerg can press a specific key to bring them in front of his Roaches/Hydras because Force Fields prevent him from doing so manually?
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
And for your information, the real name of MOBAs is… Action Real-Time Strategy.
On April 30 2015 10:05 PowerOfOne wrote: My only hope is that Blizzard does not resort to keeping this ability by only adding an upgrade to it with a factory requirement, cause I am sure nobody will get that, unless you could stim a reaper LOL
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
Sorry to get off the 6 rax reaper thing, but this is probably the most painful thing to witness in all of the LoTV games I have seen. I know were still in the beta, but as time and time goes on were going to see players getting straight to max economy max production with almost no action at all. That is the same exact problem the game faces now.
It's because we've forgotten how to 2base. We spent so long in the WoL + HotS meta of "3base max deathball" since 2011 that we forgot how to play aggressive. Once everything settles, people will start playing aggressive in early again
Give me 10 workers at start so at least I can 12 gate. Until then only the 14/14 timing is unaffected.
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
Sorry to get off the 6 rax reaper thing, but this is probably the most painful thing to witness in all of the LoTV games I have seen. I know were still in the beta, but as time and time goes on were going to see players getting straight to max economy max production with almost no action at all. That is the same exact problem the game faces now.
It's because we've forgotten how to 2base. We spent so long in the WoL + HotS meta of "3base max deathball" since 2011 that we forgot how to play aggressive. Once everything settles, people will start playing aggressive in early again
Give me 10 workers at start so at least I can 12 gate. Until then only the 14/14 timing is unaffected.
Yeah I also feel like having only 2 supply to cap on spawn is limiting the amount of options in terms of production timings.
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
Sorry to get off the 6 rax reaper thing, but this is probably the most painful thing to witness in all of the LoTV games I have seen. I know were still in the beta, but as time and time goes on were going to see players getting straight to max economy max production with almost no action at all. That is the same exact problem the game faces now.
Yeah, SC2 has pretty much no midgame unless one player is very, very committed to an all-in attack. If one guy starts poking at around 100-120 supply, sees good defense and decides to retreat, both players reach 200/200 supply very fast with pretty much no fighting. Parade push TvZ is pretty much the only notable exception.
And now LotV is even condensing the initial build up to 100 supply. I miss the days when players have to earn getting to 200/200 in an actual game.
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
Sorry to get off the 6 rax reaper thing, but this is probably the most painful thing to witness in all of the LoTV games I have seen. I know were still in the beta, but as time and time goes on were going to see players getting straight to max economy max production with almost no action at all. That is the same exact problem the game faces now.
Yeah, SC2 has pretty much no midgame unless one player is very, very committed to an all-in attack. If one guy starts poking at around 100-120 supply, sees good defense and decides to retreat, both players reach 200/200 supply very fast with pretty much no fighting. Parade push TvZ is pretty much the only notable exception.
And now LotV is even condensing the initial build up to 100 supply. I miss the days when players have to earn getting to 200/200 in an actual game.
you're greatly exaggerating. People fight before max all the time.
Battling for resources when hyper-development propels you towards max economy/production in 8 real time minutes in standard macro games?
Sorry to get off the 6 rax reaper thing, but this is probably the most painful thing to witness in all of the LoTV games I have seen. I know were still in the beta, but as time and time goes on were going to see players getting straight to max economy max production with almost no action at all. That is the same exact problem the game faces now.
It's because we've forgotten how to 2base. We spent so long in the WoL + HotS meta of "3base max deathball" since 2011 that we forgot how to play aggressive. Once everything settles, people will start playing aggressive in early again
On May 06 2015 23:31 c0ldfusion wrote: ugh... what a crappy idea by Blizzard to give reapers grenades.
I like that they're willing to look into the reaper's role but that grenade thing not only looks silly, it's not what is needed to give the reaper more longevity.