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the point is random advantage doesn't exist. Or at least it's far from compensating there disadvantages.
I can choose to play random for two main reason : 1. I want to play with the three races cause I think it's fun. In that case I don't care that my race is shown. But I don't either that it's not shown. 2. I want to play random cause random is fun in itself. Then I don't want my race to be shown.
Maybe some random players would desagree with me but I think those are the two main categories. If you display the race of the player, then there is no good side (competitively speaking) of playing random. As a competitive point of view, I would even go as far as to say random needs a buff. Maybe lotv is this. The point of my troll was, instead of considering random as a roll of dice, consider it as a choice of competition, as is the other races.
The idea for the MMR is good though, maybe the only think that makes sense in what you're saying.
And stop accusing other people to be favored against you because you lose, but you to good to lose so it's not your fault it's imbalanced. Just get better, really. Or quit every game against a random.
Not-an-edit : haters gonna hate. Don't change bro
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On September 11 2015 04:35 LDaVinci wrote: the point is random advantage doesn't exist. Or at least it's far from compensating there disadvantages.
I can choose to play random for two main reason : 1. I want to play with the three races cause I think it's fun. In that case I don't care that my race is shown. But I don't either that it's not shown. 2. I want to play random cause random is fun in itself. Then I don't want my race to be shown.
Maybe some random players would desagree with me but I think those are the two main categories. If you display the race of the player, then there is no good side (competitively speaking) of playing random. As a competitive point of view, I would even go as far as to say random needs a buff. Maybe lotv is this. The point of my troll was, instead of considering random as a roll of dice, consider it as a choice of competition, as is the other races.
The idea for the MMR is good though, maybe the only think that makes sense in what you're saying.
And stop accusing other people to be favored against you because you lose, but you to good to lose so it's not your fault it's imbalanced. Just get better, really. Or quit every game against a random.
Not-an-edit : haters gonna hate. Don't change bro Random doesn't need to be a competitive strategy, which is why it's good that, on a high level, it isn't one. The strategies it would encourage, were it more popular in high-level competition, would be really obnoxious build-order wins that knock players out of tournaments because they lost a coin flip. The dynamic is, by nature, coin-flippy and random, so from a competitive design point of view, you don't want it to be strong or popular.
Why should it exist in the first place? If the argument is "random players generally like having an advantage," that's a worthless argument. Of course if one player is handed an advantage, they're usually going to like it, and the other player is going to dislike it.
For simplicity lets consider a mirror matchup – one player plays T, the other randomly rolled T. One player is better at TvT, the other one starts off knowing what matchup he's in. In this case Terran usually goes gas first TvT, but only the random player has the option to do that without the possibility finding himself in a gas first TvZ or TvP. So one player is better at TvT, the other player starts off with an information advantage, which he can translate into a build order advantage and try to win off that advantage.
Yes, there are advantages and disadvantages here, but the point is: one player's advantage is that he's better at TvT. The player that's better at TvT should win the TvT. In a competitive atmosphere the less skilled player shouldn't be given some handicap to compensate him for being less skilled. The whole point is that whoever plays better is supposed to win.
And for fuck's sake, how many times do I need to say it? This is not about my own personal experience playing against random. I've said plenty of times in the thread, my winrate against random isn't particularly bad. I don't even play Protoss, who easily has the worst vR matchup. This thread isn't about my specific experiences winning or losing to random players, it's a discussion thread for why random advantage should or should not be in the game.
So "just play better" is a complete red herring. It's just you trying to derail the discussion into "Is ChristianS just mad because he's not good at the game?" It doesn't matter if I'm good at the game, and whether random advantage should exist is a conversation worth having regardless of whether I am or not.
Side note: It's always funny to see someone say something stupid and/or offensive, get called on it, and then say "haha! I was just trolling! I got you, didn't I?" I wonder if they're only retconning the comment into a troll for public purposes, or if they actually convince themselves in their head that they didn't mean what they said.
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No I meant to troll you, my entire first post is a troll. I'm not a 10 year old boy who doesn't know what he is talking about. But I'm convinced that you believe I meant what I said. You take this topic so personally it becomes funny. You say, it doesn't need to be a competitive strategy. And this would only bring cheeses. Well I dunno. Some suboptimal build could become interesting to play, even on high level. As a viewer, I guess I would like that quite much.
For the advantages and disadvantages, I completely disagree with you. Protoss has a huge advantages on having colossus, and Terrans have widow mines, and Zerg had swarm host (ok this one is a bad example). It's not because they have those advantages over the other races than the game is not fair. I also would love to have a range unit that overrange any other, or a burrow one that triggers itself, or whatever you want. I play Zerg so I'm of course biased on that. But give zerg hellbats/mines/medivac/(any Terran unit actually) and colossus/blink hydra they would be happy. Those race have advantages, ok but they also have disadvantages. You will say that this is ingame design and random is out of game design. True but the out of game advantages of random (the opponent doesn't know against what to play) is compensated by the out of game disadvantages. For a high level random player, doing only 9 cheeses is quite impossible. If a player only cheeses, he can surely go to GM but he won't go far in major tournaments, cause people will expect cheeses. So if a random player wants to win or at least go far in a tournament, he will have to work on his macro strat as well.
Now if you're talking about plat/diamond or even master ranking, I don't care. Those rank doesn't matter as a rank (I'm diamond btw). If a player as a small advantage it is compensated by is badness at the game (I mean compared to tournament winning skills). If it's what you're talking about, then just play some games, and enjoy. If you're not able to enjoy a loss from a player who do a unusual start, then don't play strategy games. I know what I'm talking about, as I'm a chess player also. Some of the games I enjoyed more were against better opponent (not much better I agree) doing sacrifices I didn't expect and creating great imbalance in the game (for example Tower versus 5-6 pawns). It's the same in SC2 for me, some games I lose but really enjoy them cause they are fun to play, intense force you to think outside of the meta (that someone else prepared for you cause you're too lazy to think by yourself)
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Okay then, you're trolling. My mistake attempting to have a discussion with you. If you want responses to your points, I've responded to all of them at various times in the thread.
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
Archon GM at the moment:
18 terrans (23.7%) 22 zerg (28.9%) 11 protoss (14.5%) 26 random (32.4%)
so random is the most popular race there. I'd say fairly confidently it's probably the most common i've hit in ~75 games of LOTV in the last couple of weeks, matching up with those numbers.
67.1% of players (just over two thirds) would be playing against the random advantage.
The popularity of random shouldn't really influence if it's alright for it to be imbalanced without a good reason - but if you're playing 1v1 in WOL/HOTS, you didn't have to change your strategy that much and you hit a random like one in every 15 games. It didn't affect many people very much, there wasn't need for an outcry against it because you could just leave those games or all-in and shrug them off.
Now it matters more for strategy, you have to play suboptimally into every matchup vs a random because you cannot scout before comitting and you'll hit random five times as often. That's not ok.
the point is random advantage doesn't exist. Or at least it's far from compensating there disadvantages.
Random has no disadvantage aside from user lacking skill/familiarity. Even if it did, that's on the user for selecting it. It's entirely consensual to play AS random - while playing AGAINST random is NOT an option - you cannot pick the race of your opponent.
Being able to see your opponents race while s/he cannot see yours is a rock solid advantage no matter how you try to spin it. You'll force your opponent to choose between suboptimal openings every game (probably safe/passive but not economically agressive) or take build order losses at random.
Hiding both races would be silly and make weird games that are unusable for practice against specific races, the very easy and obvious solution is to show a race on the loading screen or as you spawn.
Not only that, random advantage asymmetrically hurts races. There have been plenty of times in the past where 1-2 races get hurt way more than another for playing against random.
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You don't really play your randomed race worse than your other respective players of said race if you have practiced your strategy beforehand. Your disadventage gets you if you play Bo7 against someone because you can't rotate builds in a same way and your 1v1 ladder adventage becomes disadventage. The amount of free MMR I get as random is a lot bigger than I get when I pick race.
Best ppl can do is to figure out meta and find ways to do every build in your mirror matchups. Random adventage would be diminished by half if mirror matchups worked in less punishing way.
Your random disadventage can be fixed and practiced but your adventage can't be taken away from you.
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