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On August 20 2015 06:41 Vindicare605 wrote: You have 12 workers to start with. Just sacrifice one to find out what race you're up against as soon as the game starts. Honestly the random advantage is diminished in LoTV just due to the fact you start with so many workers to scout with. It's not as crippling to a build order to lose one of 12 workers as it is to lose 1 of 6.
There's no excuse to die to those kinds of all ins. You have scouts, use them. All of this Random advantage bullshit is from people that simply don't like the fact that they have to scout before starting their own build order. Just play safe. If you can't win a particular match up against someone with less experience at it than you (Assuming equal skill the Random player will always have played whatever match up it is less than you have) while playing safe then that's your own fault.
There doesn't need to be any kind of punishment towards Random players. It's already punishing enough trying to keep up with 9 different metagames.
On a 4 player map in LotV your scout may arrive too late to the random players base. So, there's that. Double scouting would be way too much to ask from the players.
I'm not sure why anyone would like to give the all-inners a random advantage. It promotes the use of random for cheese and impacts the community's view of random players. Ie. people are very rude if you don't announce your race, you get cheesed by some half assed all ins slightly more because people are annoyed to play against random etc.
The punishment by having to keep up with 9 different match ups is a myth. This has an effect only in the very highest and lowest ends of the gameplay. Everywhere else you will be matched up against a player who is around the same level with your effective skill. If you are performing worse because there are more match ups to learn you will be matched up against weaker players.
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Considering Starcraft as six games, though, the question is unequivocal. If a less skilled PvPer has a greater chance of winning than his more skilled opponent because he chose random, that PvP is imbalanced.
I don't agree with this statement at all.
Let's say skill can somehow be measured with a number, from 1 to 100. If there's a Protoss and his skill in PvP, PvT and PvZ are all 60. In other matchups his skill is 15. So his average skill across all 9 matchups is 30. He's playing a random player who rolled P, who has a skill 55 in all 9 matchups, and hence an average skill of 55.
I would argue that the advantage that the Random player in PvP gets by virtue of playing random (perhaps enough to win) is justified because he has a higher overall skill. To get to 55 skill in 9 matchups takes more practice than getting to 60 in only 3. So the Random player deserves to win, even though his PvP skill is lower, because he has practiced the game more overall: he isn't the better PvP player, but he is the better Starcraft player.
The reason no Randoms are in GSL is that the advantage you get from your race being hidden does not outweigh the advantage of practicing only 3 matchups rather than 9. The fact no Random players are in GSL specifically proves unequivocally that there is not an unfair imbalance in favor of the random player. The Random advantage must already be outweighed by his average matchup skill deficit.
If we were to see a Random reach code S it would be really exciting - removing the tiny information advantage they get for making that choice would make that small chance impossible.
Let me be clear: I don't play Random, and I hate playing against Random. I get frustrated when I play a safe "catch-all" build on a 4 player map until I scout my opponent's race, and then when I find he's played greedy and has an advantage I let out a big sigh. But if I can't overcome that build order advantage due to my higher skill in this matchup, then he deserves to win. I appreciate that to get that build order advantage and win because of it, he will have had to practice a lot more than me, so although if I knew his race I would win, he won fair and square because he worked hard for that Random advantage.
If you lose to a random player, and you are not one, chances are he or she is a better Starcraft player overall than you.
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Personally, I think the race of random should be shown at the start of the game.
The reason being that the game starts with a set of rules upon which we all agreed as soon as we clicked to play a game. Those rules being that everyone starts with equal amount of information and to win one must destroy all the opponents buildings.
Choosing random is a self-applied handicap. Why should it affect the other person? That would be like me choosing to play with only the mouse and as a compensation there is no fog-of-war for me. Or the other player's units would sometimes uncontrolably start to dance.
At least that is how I see it.
P.S. - The handicap part comes from the fact most Random players say that playing Random is harder because they must learn 6 matchups.
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It depends if we value more accuracy of MMR as indicator of average skill, or if we want (or not want) games featuring opponent race uncertainty. So perhaps both options are good.
Artificially inflated random player MMR doesn't mean anything. It overestimates his skill in each matchup and it fails very hard to give any idea how his skill/knowledge encompass whole game. So since it's completely wrong, it might be better to have normal MMR without giving random player artificial advantage. That way it at least represent average skill in all matchups.
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On August 28 2015 21:07 Haighstrom wrote:...
What you forgot to say is that's it's easier to go from let's say 30 to 50 in your scale than 50 to 70. The better you are with a race, the harder it is to progress. Overall, unless you're practicing a ton, you'll probably have better results going random and cheese almost every time than stick to one race and play more or less standard.
But it doesn't matter anyway. It's just frustrating to play against random because you can't use your usual builds as you may be screwed by picking up the wrong one.
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On August 28 2015 21:07 Haighstrom wrote:Show nested quote +Considering Starcraft as six games, though, the question is unequivocal. If a less skilled PvPer has a greater chance of winning than his more skilled opponent because he chose random, that PvP is imbalanced. I don't agree with this statement at all. Let's say skill can somehow be measured with a number, from 1 to 100. If there's a Protoss and his skill in PvP, PvT and PvZ are all 60. In other matchups his skill is 15. So his average skill across all 9 matchups is 30. He's playing a random player who rolled P, who has a skill 55 in all 9 matchups, and hence an average skill of 55. I would argue that the advantage that the Random player in PvP gets by virtue of playing random (perhaps enough to win) is justified because he has a higher overall skill. To get to 55 skill in 9 matchups takes more practice than getting to 60 in only 3. So the Random player deserves to win, even though his PvP skill is lower, because he has practiced the game more overall: he isn't the better PvP player, but he is the better Starcraft player. The reason no Randoms are in GSL is that the advantage you get from your race being hidden does not outweigh the advantage of practicing only 3 matchups rather than 9. The fact no Random players are in GSL specifically proves unequivocally that there is not an unfair imbalance in favor of the random player. The Random advantage must already be outweighed by his average matchup skill deficit. If we were to see a Random reach code S it would be really exciting - removing the tiny information advantage they get for making that choice would make that small chance impossible. Let me be clear: I don't play Random, and I hate playing against Random. I get frustrated when I play a safe "catch-all" build on a 4 player map until I scout my opponent's race, and then when I find he's played greedy and has an advantage I let out a big sigh. But if I can't overcome that build order advantage due to my higher skill in this matchup, then he deserves to win. I appreciate that to get that build order advantage and win because of it, he will have had to practice a lot more than me, so although if I knew his race I would win, he won fair and square because he worked hard for that Random advantage. If you lose to a random player, and you are not one, chances are he or she is a better Starcraft player overall than you. But the point is that (on your scale) the one player made decisions in accordance with a skill of 60 in PvP. The other made decisions in accordance with a skill of 55. And despite making worse decisions, he wins more often. His skill in, say, TvZ ought to be irrelevant to his PvP. True, it can be hard to keep up TvZ and PvP at the same time, but that just points to another reason this can be kind of broken – a random player will frequently have dramatically different skill levels with different races. So if he's great with P, okay with T, and terrible with Z, then all his PvX games he'll win by a stupid margin because his "true" skill there is much higher than his MMR; he'll lose all his Z games by a stupid margin because he's nowhere near as good in ZvX as his MMR gives him credit for; and only his TvX games will be at all competitive. This is dumb for a few reasons – first, it seems stupid for the outcome of the game to be determined more than anything else by Blizzard's RNG at the start of the match. Second, it hurts the random player's practice, because if you play against people way better or way worse than you, it's hard to improve. And third, in two out of three games the MMR system has failed to do what it's designed to do: match similarly skilled players together.
Compare with a system in which race is displayed, but race MMRs are different. Then if he's a 55 in PvX, he'll get matched with other players near 55 when he rolls Protoss. If his TvX is a 30, he won' have to be matched with 55 level players as T and he won't have to be matched against 30-level players as P. What's bad about this system?
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there is a reason why random players have never won anything and thats because its just too hard to play at the same level with all 3 races. leave random as it is
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On August 28 2015 21:07 Haighstrom wrote: The fact no Random players are in GSL specifically proves unequivocally that there is not an unfair imbalance in favor of the random player. The Random advantage must already be outweighed by his average matchup skill deficit.
Actually, No I don't think so. It proves that Starcraft has such a high skill cap that it's impossible to play all the races on the highest skill level at the same time. If someone could play all three races on the same level as Maru plays Terran he would be enjoying an advantage over the other pro players. Now the advantage created by random is negated because the time investment required to be pro is far too much to multiply it by three.
The problem here lies with the fact that when ladder matches you with another player you and your opponent are around the same general skill level. Hence the advantage enjoyed by the random players is considerably larger in an casual environment than in the high end tournaments where all the skills are honed to the perfection. The random player and the mono race player can have similar amount of experience in X vs Y.
I
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There's this 20-60-20 theory in DotA 2. It goes like this.
1. In 20% of your games, your teammates are so good and/or your opponents so bad that you will most likely win. 2. In 20% of your games, your teammates are so bad and/or your opponents so good that you will most likely lose. 3. In 60% of your games, the teams are balanced and it could go either way. These are the games that you need to play your best at because your skill actually makes a difference.
How often do you face Random players on the ladder? Is it higher than the 20% of games in DotA where your teammates are shit and you can't possibly win? I seriously doubt that, as I rarely encounter fellow Random players on the ladder. Random does provide an advantage, but not enough in the long run.
Suppose you lost to a lesser-skilled Random player who got his best race thanks to the RNG gods. How many times does this happen to you? How many times have you roflstomped a Random player who got his worst race in the die roll? And how many times have you had an even match against a Random player?
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On August 29 2015 01:21 Wrathsc2 wrote: there is a reason why random players have never won anything and thats because its just too hard to play at the same level with all 3 races. leave random as it is As random and randompicker player.
Playing ladder as random doesn't require much at all to play efficiently (macro games.) If you generally play 3+hours a day your skills translate incredibly well already. You just basically have to know meta and timings for each MU. What people don't understand is that when you play as both races from certain MU you do get extra benefit from that. My PvZ was precisily fucking good because of that imo.
The real con of playing random comes in tournaments. You can't practice efficiently enough builds for EVERY race. I guess some pro could do it at lower megatier level but limiting yourself as pro is silly.
on topic: I hope they change something because if game "starts" faster than before the earlier wol/hots adventage becomes just ridiculous.
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On August 29 2015 05:21 Eternal Dalek wrote: There's this 20-60-20 theory in DotA 2. It goes like this.
1. In 20% of your games, your teammates are so good and/or your opponents so bad that you will most likely win. 2. In 20% of your games, your teammates are so bad and/or your opponents so good that you will most likely lose. 3. In 60% of your games, the teams are balanced and it could go either way. These are the games that you need to play your best at because your skill actually makes a difference.
How often do you face Random players on the ladder? Is it higher than the 20% of games in DotA where your teammates are shit and you can't possibly win? I seriously doubt that, as I rarely encounter fellow Random players on the ladder. Random does provide an advantage, but not enough in the long run.
Suppose you lost to a lesser-skilled Random player who got his best race thanks to the RNG gods. How many times does this happen to you? How many times have you roflstomped a Random player who got his worst race in the die roll? And how many times have you had an even match against a Random player? DotA 2 is a team game. Inevitably you have to accept that some wins or losses will not hinge on your skill because of that fact. Starcraft 2, as it's usually played, is not, and therefore does not need to accept a circumstance where in 40% of games you can't really impact the outcome of the game.
Random players are rare, and as a result, the impact is fairly small on the ladder at all. But why should it exist at all? If it were possible, wouldn't DotA 2 be better off with a 0-100-0 distribution? Because this circumstance with random can easily be changed.
To reiterate for WrathSC2 and others: it's true, the issue doesn't apply at the highest level of play, because nobody has been able to play random there. That is to say, you will still win more by practicing one race thoroughly than by trying to learn all three races and capitalize on random advantage. That doesn't mean this circumstance is good though. That was still true in WoL, even when a good random player should be able to get an automatic advantage against all Protoss. That situation was broken, and the fact that random was still too taxing for anybody to win at the top level with it didn't change that.
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On August 29 2015 09:04 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 05:21 Eternal Dalek wrote: There's this 20-60-20 theory in DotA 2. It goes like this.
1. In 20% of your games, your teammates are so good and/or your opponents so bad that you will most likely win. 2. In 20% of your games, your teammates are so bad and/or your opponents so good that you will most likely lose. 3. In 60% of your games, the teams are balanced and it could go either way. These are the games that you need to play your best at because your skill actually makes a difference.
How often do you face Random players on the ladder? Is it higher than the 20% of games in DotA where your teammates are shit and you can't possibly win? I seriously doubt that, as I rarely encounter fellow Random players on the ladder. Random does provide an advantage, but not enough in the long run.
Suppose you lost to a lesser-skilled Random player who got his best race thanks to the RNG gods. How many times does this happen to you? How many times have you roflstomped a Random player who got his worst race in the die roll? And how many times have you had an even match against a Random player? DotA 2 is a team game. Inevitably you have to accept that some wins or losses will not hinge on your skill because of that fact. Starcraft 2, as it's usually played, is not, and therefore does not need to accept a circumstance where in 40% of games you can't really impact the outcome of the game. Random players are rare, and as a result, the impact is fairly small on the ladder at all. But why should it exist at all? If it were possible, wouldn't DotA 2 be better off with a 0-100-0 distribution? Because this circumstance with random can easily be changed. To reiterate for WrathSC2 and others: it's true, the issue doesn't apply at the highest level of play, because nobody has been able to play random there. That is to say, you will still win more by practicing one race thoroughly than by trying to learn all three races and capitalize on random advantage. That doesn't mean this circumstance is good though. That was still true in WoL, even when a good random player should be able to get an automatic advantage against all Protoss. That situation was broken, and the fact that random was still too taxing for anybody to win at the top level with it didn't change that. This is like those people trying to combat voter fraud in the USA. Does voter fraud exist in the USA? Technically, yes, but the percentage is so tiny that most of the proposed and implemented changes actually hinder real voters much more than they prevent fraud.
And you can't really have 0-100-0 in SC2 either, because there are some aspects of randomness to the game. How many times have you seen pro games getting decided because the scout stops just short of a hidden tech building? How many times have you see scouts getting sent to the wrong starting location? What about mismicros or other mistakes like double tech buildings? And what about outside factors like jet lag, hunter, illness, power loss, and other stuff you can't possibly counter with skill? The point is, even in SC2, there are things that are simply out of your control.
And you know what, you can at least feel proud that you pick a specific race compared to us Random folks who do it for the early game advantage. Morale is a real thing, even in a 1v1 game like SC2.
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On August 29 2015 10:59 Eternal Dalek wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 09:04 ChristianS wrote:On August 29 2015 05:21 Eternal Dalek wrote: There's this 20-60-20 theory in DotA 2. It goes like this.
1. In 20% of your games, your teammates are so good and/or your opponents so bad that you will most likely win. 2. In 20% of your games, your teammates are so bad and/or your opponents so good that you will most likely lose. 3. In 60% of your games, the teams are balanced and it could go either way. These are the games that you need to play your best at because your skill actually makes a difference.
How often do you face Random players on the ladder? Is it higher than the 20% of games in DotA where your teammates are shit and you can't possibly win? I seriously doubt that, as I rarely encounter fellow Random players on the ladder. Random does provide an advantage, but not enough in the long run.
Suppose you lost to a lesser-skilled Random player who got his best race thanks to the RNG gods. How many times does this happen to you? How many times have you roflstomped a Random player who got his worst race in the die roll? And how many times have you had an even match against a Random player? DotA 2 is a team game. Inevitably you have to accept that some wins or losses will not hinge on your skill because of that fact. Starcraft 2, as it's usually played, is not, and therefore does not need to accept a circumstance where in 40% of games you can't really impact the outcome of the game. Random players are rare, and as a result, the impact is fairly small on the ladder at all. But why should it exist at all? If it were possible, wouldn't DotA 2 be better off with a 0-100-0 distribution? Because this circumstance with random can easily be changed. To reiterate for WrathSC2 and others: it's true, the issue doesn't apply at the highest level of play, because nobody has been able to play random there. That is to say, you will still win more by practicing one race thoroughly than by trying to learn all three races and capitalize on random advantage. That doesn't mean this circumstance is good though. That was still true in WoL, even when a good random player should be able to get an automatic advantage against all Protoss. That situation was broken, and the fact that random was still too taxing for anybody to win at the top level with it didn't change that. This is like those people trying to combat voter fraud in the USA. Does voter fraud exist in the USA? Technically, yes, but the percentage is so tiny that most of the proposed and implemented changes actually hinder real voters much more than they prevent fraud. And you can't really have 0-100-0 in SC2 either, because there are some aspects of randomness to the game. How many times have you seen pro games getting decided because the scout stops just short of a hidden tech building? How many times have you see scouts getting sent to the wrong starting location? What about mismicros or other mistakes like double tech buildings? And what about outside factors like jet lag, hunter, illness, power loss, and other stuff you can't possibly counter with skill? The point is, even in SC2, there are things that are simply out of your control. And you know what, you can at least feel proud that you pick a specific race compared to us Random folks who do it for the early game advantage. Morale is a real thing, even in a 1v1 game like SC2. Unlike the voter fraud case, the suggested change does not hinder ordinary players. The only reason you're right that the problem is rare is because there aren't very many random players, and this change only impacts those rare cases. Whereas the voter fraud people generally want everyone to have to bring a driver's license or something, even though only a few people will actually commit fraud (if any).
Yes, there are other random aspects to the game. Many of those you mentioned either aren't actually randomness (stopping just short of scouting the hidden tech building isn't random, it means that player wasn't thorough enough in their scouting that game), or are undesirable and we would remove them if we could. If we could somehow eliminate jet lag as a factor in SC2, I think most people would like that – there's just no obvious way to do so. Random advantage has a clear and easy solution that would take very little dev time to change (it easily might just be a matter of changing which variable the game reads out when it tells the opponent's race).
My pride has nothing to do with it. I think random players should be very proud for playing all three races – that's very hard, and kudos for doing it. But I don't think just because you did a hard thing, you deserve an in-game advantage against opponents who haven't. That's one of the most important things separating SC2 from something like WoW, where because you've raided such and such dungeon over and over again you're rewarded with gear that (all skill aside) will make you stronger than players who haven't done the same. In SC2, both players should start out on even footing, and only the decisions you make in that match should put you ahead or behind.
As an aside, I've added the suggestion to have separate MMRs for each race to the OP. I think that suggestion would give random players a much easier time on ladder, and make it a lot easier in general for people to learn off-races. Paired with the removal of random advantage, I think that would handle SC2's 3-race, 6-matchup system much better.
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On August 29 2015 04:45 CheRRyKiTTy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 21:07 Haighstrom wrote: The fact no Random players are in GSL specifically proves unequivocally that there is not an unfair imbalance in favor of the random player. The Random advantage must already be outweighed by his average matchup skill deficit.
The problem here lies with the fact that when ladder matches you with another player you and your opponent are around the same general skill level. Hence the advantage enjoyed by the random players is considerably larger in an casual environment than in the high end tournaments where all the skills are honed to the perfection.
But the random player gets to where he is with this 'advantage' of his race not being revealed. Relatively he has no advantage at all because you're of equivalent skill after all advantages for both players are taken into account.
This is like saying Race A is better in 3 ways but worse in 1 than Race B, but because on ladder only players of equivalent skill play eachother, Race B's advantage is greater than the advantages of Race A. It doesn't work like that, sorry.
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On August 29 2015 13:09 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 04:45 CheRRyKiTTy wrote:On August 28 2015 21:07 Haighstrom wrote: The fact no Random players are in GSL specifically proves unequivocally that there is not an unfair imbalance in favor of the random player. The Random advantage must already be outweighed by his average matchup skill deficit.
The problem here lies with the fact that when ladder matches you with another player you and your opponent are around the same general skill level. Hence the advantage enjoyed by the random players is considerably larger in an casual environment than in the high end tournaments where all the skills are honed to the perfection. But the random player gets to where he is with this 'advantage' of his race not being revealed. Relatively he has no advantage at all because you're of equivalent skill after all advantages for both players are taken into account. This is like saying Race A is better in 3 ways but worse in 1 than Race B, but because on ladder only players of equivalent skill play eachother, Race B's advantage is greater than the advantages of Race A. It doesn't work like that, sorry. But what in-game disadvantage does the random player have? His only 'disadvantage' is that he doesn't know how to play his race as well because he hasn't practiced it as much. In what other context do we feel the need to compensate inexperienced players with an in-game advantage so they can have an even chance of winning against more experienced opponents?
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On August 29 2015 10:59 Eternal Dalek wrote:
This is like those people trying to combat voter fraud in the USA. Does voter fraud exist in the USA? Technically, yes, but the percentage is so tiny that most of the proposed and implemented changes actually hinder real voters much more than they prevent fraud.
What the actual uh, what's the word again. Bunny. Yeah. Anyways, it's pretty god damn standard in European countries that you need a freaking ID to vote "Bringing an ID is hindering real voters?". I will never understand the USA. Anyway, if someone wants to update my knowledge of the situation do that by PM please.
Back to the actual topic. Like it was said removing random from the start screen does not hinder the game play for anyone.
Further more, I like how majority of random players announce their race. Kinda cool, but then there's that one asshole who announces a wrong race and picks up a free win. ;<
I just can't see how random is making the gameplay experience better for majority of players. Can someone explain me in clear words why not knowing opponents race in tiny amount of games is making the game more fun for majority of the players? I think number one here is having fun. Random actively annoys people. I think that's the best argument for removing random.
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On August 29 2015 22:27 CheRRyKiTTy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2015 10:59 Eternal Dalek wrote:
This is like those people trying to combat voter fraud in the USA. Does voter fraud exist in the USA? Technically, yes, but the percentage is so tiny that most of the proposed and implemented changes actually hinder real voters much more than they prevent fraud.
What the actual uh, what's the word again. Bunny. Yeah. Anyways, it's pretty god damn standard in European countries that you need a freaking ID to vote "Bringing an ID is hindering real voters?". I will never understand the USA. Anyway, if someone wants to update my knowledge of the situation do that by PM please. Back to the actual topic. Like it was said removing random from the start screen does not hinder the game play for anyone. Further more, I like how majority of random players announce their race. Kinda cool, but then there's that one asshole who announces a wrong race and picks up a free win. ;< I just can't see how random is making the gameplay experience better for majority of players. Can someone explain me in clear words why not knowing opponents race in tiny amount of games is making the game more fun for majority of the players? I think number one here is having fun. Random actively annoys people. I think that's the best argument for removing random. Well I don't think I'm very qualified to answer your question, but iirc jinorazi and ocoini back on page 8 or so were arguing that they like the game to be less about rigid build orders. They play random, so they have to improvise quite a bit since they don't know all the races. Their opponents are forced to improvise because they can't do a race-specific build order. The result is that the game kind of goes off the rails, instead of going into something more standard. They think that's fun.
For my part I like the idea of forcing non-standard gameplay, but I think random advantage is a terrible way to do it. For one thing, the random player isn't even forced to play non-standard or improvise or anything, because they can see their opponent's race, so only their opponent is forced to improvise. Far better, I think, to have another option you can click to (kind of like you can click to unranked play instead of ranked) which hides both players' races from the start. Then you're actually forced to improvise somewhat, on both sides. But I think most people would be mad if that was just applied to ranked play generally, so it shouldn't be applied to the whole ladder.
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I understand the argument is not yours, but it makes my head explode. Eh. I...
Okay, let's put this in words. That's certainly not how random works. People prepare one cookie cutter safe build for the XvsRandom match up and do that all eternity, because not knowing your opponents race actually limits your options instead of having more options (you need a catch all build and there's literally no point to figure out more than one catch all build due to the amount of randoms in the ladder).
Improvised gameplay is not born off 'not knowing what to do' but instead by choosing to play a style that differs from the others and making it work. At bronze to gold level you see a lot of improvision because nobody actually knows what to do, but this is not limited to playing random. Instead it's spread equally around all races. High level random players do not bring these "oh I can't play this game uh. let's do something" builds on the table. Cheese, and a few specific builds can exploit the fact that opponent does not know their race. (Early WoL TvR for example you needed to wall off in case opponent plays zerg, but that puts you at disadvantage against Voidray / Tank all ins). Not exactly my definition of interesting gameplay, let's randomize if I'm at disadvantage or not! Fun!
To certain extend Starcraft is always playing rock-paper-scissors on the build order advangtage, but at least nowadays people have a chance to scout what's coming. Random sometimes forces your hand into making a bad move because you do not have information you either should have in all games or in none.
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United Kingdom20158 Posts
The advantage becomes much larger in LotV because early game downtime has been reduced. Now nearly every matchup is likely to have deviations that would occur before the opponent can be scouted
Random imbalance is a problem at the moment because Random is the most popular race in LOTV, at least in Archon.
How often do you face Random players on the ladder? Is it higher than the 20% of games in DotA where your teammates are shit and you can't possibly win? I seriously doubt that, as I rarely encounter fellow Random players on the ladder.
I'm 50 games deep into LOTV archon in the last 4 days or so @ GM MMR and probably half of them were randoms - so yes, it's waaaaaaaay more than 20%. In WOL and HOTS it was way less, but with LOTV changes and the availability of archon mode (people don't really have weak races when there are two people behind the keyboard) it's much easier to abuse the Random advantage and a lot more people are doing it.
Go play some LOTV before drawing conclusions
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On August 30 2015 03:58 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +The advantage becomes much larger in LotV because early game downtime has been reduced. Now nearly every matchup is likely to have deviations that would occur before the opponent can be scouted Random imbalance is a problem at the moment because Random is the most popular race in LOTV, at least in Archon. Show nested quote +How often do you face Random players on the ladder? Is it higher than the 20% of games in DotA where your teammates are shit and you can't possibly win? I seriously doubt that, as I rarely encounter fellow Random players on the ladder. I'm 40 games deep into LOTV archon @ GM MMR and probably 20-24 of them were Randoms. That's very interesting. Any idea off the top of your head about what the distribution is? It's crazy to me that a majority or even plurality of players would choose random consistently, although I guess in archon mode it might be less punishing to have to play all three races.
Edit: you edited in your distribution before I could even ask! Actually, you bring up an interesting point: the macro changes make it a lot easier to learn to play all three races in LotV, at least in their current iteration. Personally my biggest issue in trying to off-race as Z was that I wasn't in the habit of injecting, and it would stop happening as soon as something distracted me (I would keep selecting hatcheries and building units, but I wouldn't go back and inject at them). And as Protoss I couldn't get the hang of knowing what to chrono boost and when. I doubt MULE is the biggest barrier to learning Terran though, so it might be harder for Z and P players to off-race as Terran with the new changes than vice versa.
In any case, that makes the "nine matchups" argument a lot weaker in LotV as well.
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