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pretty much everyone right now agrees that the 30dmg on impact made chargelots too strong in pretty much all situations.
however, at the same time, this upgrade really makes zealots viable in late game, and gives protoss a deadly later game harass option.
so how about separating charge/dmg on impact and movement speed?
this way, zealots could be useful without being overpowered earlier, by having the movement speed upgrade at the twilight council, making it cheaper (100/100?), and faster to research.
the charge/dmg on impact upgrade could be moved to the dark shrine, adding another purpose to this building, since dark templars got an indirect nerf with the removal of mules and the resulting abundance of scan energy for terran.
also, lore-wise this change would work very well, leaving the movement speed upgrade where it was in BW, and adding a deadly upgrade at the dark shrine that results from the input of dark templars into the khala.
so, to sum it up:
- movement speed upgrade at twilight council for 100/100, reduce research time, maybe even increase movement speed
- charge/damage on impact upgrade at dark shrine for 200/200, making it late game only
Poll: is charge too strong right now in the beta?yes (56) 67% no (17) 20% maybe (10) 12% 83 total votes Your vote: is charge too strong right now in the beta? (Vote): yes (Vote): no (Vote): maybe
Poll: how should charge be reworked?get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade. (28) 32% not at all, it's fine. (22) 25% reduce but keep damage on impact. (19) 22% this post's suggestion. (13) 15% remove damage on impact. (5) 6% buff or add counters to mass zealots. (1) 1% 88 total votes Your vote: how should charge be reworked? (Vote): not at all, it's fine. (Vote): remove damage on impact. (Vote): reduce but keep damage on impact. (Vote): get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade. (Vote): buff or add counters to mass zealots. (Vote): this post's suggestion.
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Honestly I don't know why Blizzard isn't trying to make the Zealot the tanky unit and the Adept the core dps unit... it seems so backwards to me.
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Maybe not dark shrine but templar archive, and upgradable at Twilight council?
Also if movement speed upgrade is separated it needs to provide much higher speed boost. TBH that 30 guaranteed burst damage at twilight tech seems rather too powerful.
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On August 27 2015 19:17 L3monsta wrote: Honestly I don't know why Blizzard isn't trying to make the Zealot the tanky unit and the Adept the core dps unit... it seems so backwards to me.
In some sense I agree. It would definetely mean that zealots and adepts will not be used effectively in the same composition, since the zealots always will tank for the adept. But in a pure range composition I don't see anything wrong with the adept being tanky.
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On August 27 2015 19:17 L3monsta wrote: Honestly I don't know why Blizzard isn't trying to make the Zealot the tanky unit and the Adept the core dps unit... it seems so backwards to me.
This is so obvious they even had it right on WoW. (Melee -> tank, Range -> DPS)
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Is it really strong? haven't seen much of it. MB it's just the huge macro nerf on Terran? or is it powerful in PvZ as well?
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
Where is the concussive shells removal(or rework)? I mean charge is direct response in the game to concussive shells(from the design of the game) and it was buffed several times because of this skill. You cannot just change charge into speed and pretend everything is fine.
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I still dont get why they buffed the zealot, its already a good unit, it got less used because adepts are way to OP. So they should have tone down the Adept not buff the zealot...
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30 damage charge is ridonkulous. I think zealot should get the adept armor upgrade instead of the adept, and a flat speed boost upgrade (remove concussive shell)
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It's too strong. Even if you push it into the lategame it's ridiculous what this 100/0/2 unit does. Zealots are already strong in HotS, the only reason why they were buffed in the first place is that adepts are a bit imbalanced (prism adept shit existed before the last patch already and was too strong; adepts in general were too strong against terran and protoss already). Nerf adepts and you will see more zealot usage to begin with.
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On August 27 2015 21:10 deacon.frost wrote: I mean charge is direct response in the game to concussive shells(from the design of the game) and it was buffed several times because of this skill.
Lol, no. If you watch the 2007 SC-II alpha demo it's very clear that charge came first. Concussive shells didn't come out until the Battle Report in 2009.
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I like it the way it is now (ofc nerf the charge or zealot somehow because its op atm). No matter how tanky you make the zealot, after they are taken care of (through stutter stepping) protoss will be left with a paper thin army (this is if you switch the roles of the zealot and adept like many are suggesting). With the way it is now protoss is guaranteed damage because of charge and the tankiness of the adept really gives great backbone to the left over protoss army even without splash. This is what protoss needs to not rely so much on splash crazy units like storm and collosi and it will lead to more stable games imo. The idea that range = dps and melee = buffer doesnt have to be true just because the melee units get hit first because in this case the melee units get guaranteed dmg and its up to the other race to micro around that (by liming surface area etc..).
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On August 27 2015 21:10 deacon.frost wrote: Where is the concussive shells removal(or rework)? I mean charge is direct response in the game to concussive shells(from the design of the game) and it was buffed several times because of this skill. You cannot just change charge into speed and pretend everything is fine.
Everytime mentions Zealot charge I make this point.
You NEED charge to deal with concussive shells. Flat Zealot speed upgrade doesn't work as long as concussive shells are still in the game.
That said 30 damage on impact sounds ridiculous. Chargelots 1 shot workers.
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I'd like to see how the game looks with Charge dealing a reasonable amount of damage on impact before just completely removing Charge. Also maybe the frequently-mentioned shield buff to 60. I'm thinking either 8 or 16 damage + the standard attack, and make Charge benefit from upgrades to the same degree as the standard attack.
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Zealot's in BW did not need charge. Their was nothing that could slow them down (concussive shell) or stop them in their tracks (fungal), which is why they did not need charge, but only the speed upgrade. But still, 30 dmg on Charge is a bit too high, maybe 15-20, or even lower??! Zealots are supposed to be tanky units, they should get more health (as a future upgrade in twilight, templar archives) instead of having more DPS, leave that change for Stalkers...
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On August 28 2015 00:58 Wrathsc2 wrote: I like it the way it is now (ofc nerf the charge or zealot somehow because its op atm). No matter how tanky you make the zealot, after they are taken care of (through stutter stepping) protoss will be left with a paper thin army (this is if you switch the roles of the zealot and adept like many are suggesting). With the way it is now protoss is guaranteed damage because of charge and the tankiness of the adept really gives great backbone to the left over protoss army even without splash. This is what protoss needs to not rely so much on splash crazy units like storm and collosi and it will lead to more stable games imo. The idea that range = dps and melee = buffer doesnt have to be true just because the melee units get hit first because in this case the melee units get guaranteed dmg and its up to the other race to micro around that (by liming surface area etc..).
Paper thin army & a lack of a back bone!? That is sooooo wrong of a statement. Every non-caster Protoss unit is a litteral tank for its cost and supply, especially when you put it on the scale of the other two races. For example, the Pre-Buff Adept was far more tankier than the Marine, Maradar, Zergling Hydralisk and nearly matching the Roach for tankiness. Protoss are overfilled with tanky units with a huge lack of damage units. This is specially why they depend so much on Storm and Collosi, because they desperatly have to find that damage output.
All the Adept is a unit that is even MORE tanky unit that is highly specialized in damage (which is what keeps them from being gamebreaking OP). In order words, in terms of stats, they are the Anti-Light verison of the Immortal but comes out a lot quicker in the game. Losing the Adept's tankiness will not make Protoss any less tanky.
And lastly, making the Zealot the damager makes it rather lack luster in attempting to sygnerize with it's other units. In concept, if the Zealot is the main source of damage output, what's the point of having the tank in the mixture when they take the damage after the damage dealers are dead. The Zealot has no sygnery with the other offensive units in their own race. They have few good army composition and most of them revolves around the Zealots absorbing the damage to allow their bigger guns to deal the damage.
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Well... Now marines have 2 upgrades, zerglings have always had 2 upgrades, so why do zealots only get one?
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On August 28 2015 03:47 BaronVonOwn wrote: Well... Now marines have 2 upgrades, zerglings have always had 2 upgrades, so why do zealots only get one?
Balance isn't equality. Thats all that needs to be said, really. Zealots dont need an extra upgrade anyways: they scale well into the lategame and are powerful at every stage of the game even with 1 upgrade.
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Why not have charge be a passive speed boost as well as giving them the passive ability to not have their speed reduce by any spells? That seems to be a good buff to them.
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I think a change so that the zealot charge does like 30 damage but only to armored units. ( or only to light units) This way good players can turn off charge and selectivly target high priority units. Charge would still be good for beginers since it is easy to use, but have a huge skill ceiling, similar to how there isn't really a ceiling to how well you split marines vs banes.
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What about something where you can upgrade the damage to be the charge on hit uses up some or all of the zealot shields.
This way the damage is done as a real initial boost for harassment, but then the zealot is also much easier to kill. If you are then using the zealot as more of a meat shield you can turn that ability off to save the shields.
I don't know how you'd have to adjust things, but basically give the zealot 30 shields and the ability can only be used when the zealot is at full shield so that if someone uses good micro to get the shield down you don't get that bonus damage.
Just trying to think of a way to get the damage boost but make a trade with health so that you can use the zealot as high damage harass or lower damage shield late game.
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On August 28 2015 04:17 GoodRamen wrote: Why not have charge be a passive speed boost as well as giving them the passive ability to not have their speed reduce by any spells? That seems to be a good buff to them.
Then it would be too hard to kite zealots. Its an interessting proposition and it might work, but I feel it removes too much important counterplay to the already powerful deathball
On August 28 2015 04:28 Allred wrote: I think a change so that the zealot charge does like 30 damage but only to armored units. ( or only to light units) This way good players can turn off charge and selectivly target high priority units. Charge would still be good for beginers since it is easy to use, but have a huge skill ceiling, similar to how there isn't really a ceiling to how well you split marines vs banes.
Another cool idea, but I don't see why its needed: zealots in the mid-lategame aren't supposed to be the bulk of the damage: rather, the squishy archons, high templar and robo/stargate units are. If anything, we should be finding a way to make the protoss deathball be weaker instead of stronger. Zealots already do a ton of damage when harassing. Another complaint from a lot of protosses these days is that there are too many actives on units that dont need it, and it feels like theyre playing a moba instead of a strategy game: void ray charge and immortal shields are the two most unnecessary actives, and they can just be replaced by a passive so that the protoss can focus on more relevant tasks and micro such as the disruptor, blink micro, forcefields, storms, and dealing with things around the map. A cool idea, but I'm afraid it would become one of these unecessary actives that protoss already has too many of.
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I really like this idea.
On a side note about Zealot/Adept overlap. The Adept is just a tankier roach with a teleport move. Completely horrible unit in every way. Regardless of whatever cheese it's part of, as far as its fit into the Protoss main army, it'll either be too cheap for its stats and thus overlap with the Zealot as the anchoring unit in a gateway composition, or it'll be too expensive for its stats and thus won't be part of the mid/late game gateway army. Or best case, it'll fill the same role as the Zealot just as well as the Zealot and thus be 110% pointless in a gateway army.
I hope it's not too late for the unit to be removed/reworked.
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As a biased as fuck protoss, I love the new charge. It's hilariously good.
Every game, charge first, warp prism, 4 zealot drop into chargelot archon with some adepts into storm.
Then I see hitman doing immortal zealot all in and I think 'imagine that with 30 damage charge....' NNnnnnggggghhhhhhhh
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A pure speed upgrade? I think this would be way too strong for Zealots.
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On August 28 2015 04:33 FLuE wrote: What about something where you can upgrade the damage to be the charge on hit uses up some or all of the zealot shields.
This way the damage is done as a real initial boost for harassment, but then the zealot is also much easier to kill. If you are then using the zealot as more of a meat shield you can turn that ability off to save the shields.
I don't know how you'd have to adjust things, but basically give the zealot 30 shields and the ability can only be used when the zealot is at full shield so that if someone uses good micro to get the shield down you don't get that bonus damage.
Just trying to think of a way to get the damage boost but make a trade with health so that you can use the zealot as high damage harass or lower damage shield late game.
i really like this suggestion, adds depth and multi-purpose to a pretty one-dimensional unit
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Zealots are already viable in the late game. They're a staple versus Terran and are useful versus all races as a mineral dump and harassment unit. Instead of making the Zealot even better, the logical choice is to fix the Adept which is overshadowing the Zealot and limiting its usage. Logic has never been Blizzard's strong suit. They're much better at making flashy things go boom.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On August 28 2015 00:22 starimk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 21:10 deacon.frost wrote: I mean charge is direct response in the game to concussive shells(from the design of the game) and it was buffed several times because of this skill. Lol, no. If you watch the 2007 SC-II alpha demo it's very clear that charge came first. Concussive shells didn't come out until the Battle Report in 2009. I was referring to that patch(1.3.0) where they introduced the "Charge hits at least once" mechanic. That is important. before the patch the zealots could be kited to death never hitting the bio. After that patch you could actually play a zealot/templar compositions and I dare to say that was the funniest PvT composition in SC2 untill Blizzard killed it.
On August 28 2015 19:31 summerloud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 04:33 FLuE wrote: What about something where you can upgrade the damage to be the charge on hit uses up some or all of the zealot shields.
This way the damage is done as a real initial boost for harassment, but then the zealot is also much easier to kill. If you are then using the zealot as more of a meat shield you can turn that ability off to save the shields.
I don't know how you'd have to adjust things, but basically give the zealot 30 shields and the ability can only be used when the zealot is at full shield so that if someone uses good micro to get the shield down you don't get that bonus damage.
Just trying to think of a way to get the damage boost but make a trade with health so that you can use the zealot as high damage harass or lower damage shield late game. i really like this suggestion, adds depth and multi-purpose to a pretty one-dimensional unit Yes, give to each protoss unit an active ability so then we will see the true micro. Unless you want to remove some abilities it's very unfortunate to add more of them. I am not against micro but I would like to have some real micro, not some "now I will turn on ability on these units, MICRO GOD!!!!"
The idea sound nice though.
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On August 28 2015 22:24 deacon.frost wrote:Yes, give to each protoss unit an active ability so then we will see the true micro. Unless you want to remove some abilities it's very unfortunate to add more of them. I am not against micro but I would like to have some real micro, not some "now I will turn on ability on these units, MICRO GOD!!!!" The idea sound nice though.
thats not really an ability you have to turn on in battle, like the new immo barriers or void rays, but more of a pre-battle decision, like morphing hellions to hellbats
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On August 28 2015 22:46 summerloud wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 22:24 deacon.frost wrote:Yes, give to each protoss unit an active ability so then we will see the true micro. Unless you want to remove some abilities it's very unfortunate to add more of them. I am not against micro but I would like to have some real micro, not some "now I will turn on ability on these units, MICRO GOD!!!!" The idea sound nice though. thats not really an ability you have to turn on in battle, like the new immo barriers or void rays, but more of a pre-battle decision, like morphing hellions to hellbats Oh, this way. I have high dosage of painkillers to keep my shoulder OKish so that's my excuse(and it's Friday hot afternoon at work :D). I still would like to see something else, but it's beta, we could try it, it could be good and playable. They can use the scythe from campaign to show the difference and during "morphing" they could prepare the scythe So the enemy knows what's the stuff incoming
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Good suggestion and well written post, Thanks!
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On August 28 2015 23:01 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2015 22:46 summerloud wrote:On August 28 2015 22:24 deacon.frost wrote:Yes, give to each protoss unit an active ability so then we will see the true micro. Unless you want to remove some abilities it's very unfortunate to add more of them. I am not against micro but I would like to have some real micro, not some "now I will turn on ability on these units, MICRO GOD!!!!" The idea sound nice though. thats not really an ability you have to turn on in battle, like the new immo barriers or void rays, but more of a pre-battle decision, like morphing hellions to hellbats Oh, this way. I have high dosage of painkillers to keep my shoulder OKish so that's my excuse(and it's Friday hot afternoon at work :D). I still would like to see something else, but it's beta, we could try it, it could be good and playable. They can use the scythe from campaign to show the difference and during "morphing" they could prepare the scythe So the enemy knows what's the stuff incoming
there is a model for dark zealots thats used in the campaign that would be perfect for the damage-on-impact-chargelots
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