|
pretty much everyone right now agrees that the 30dmg on impact made chargelots too strong in pretty much all situations.
however, at the same time, this upgrade really makes zealots viable in late game, and gives protoss a deadly later game harass option.
so how about separating charge/dmg on impact and movement speed?
this way, zealots could be useful without being overpowered earlier, by having the movement speed upgrade at the twilight council, making it cheaper (100/100?), and faster to research.
the charge/dmg on impact upgrade could be moved to the dark shrine, adding another purpose to this building, since dark templars got an indirect nerf with the removal of mules and the resulting abundance of scan energy for terran.
also, lore-wise this change would work very well, leaving the movement speed upgrade where it was in BW, and adding a deadly upgrade at the dark shrine that results from the input of dark templars into the khala.
so, to sum it up:
- movement speed upgrade at twilight council for 100/100, reduce research time, maybe even increase movement speed
- charge/damage on impact upgrade at dark shrine for 200/200, making it late game only
Poll: is charge too strong right now in the beta?yes (56) 67% no (17) 20% maybe (10) 12% 83 total votes Your vote: is charge too strong right now in the beta? (Vote): yes (Vote): no (Vote): maybe
Poll: how should charge be reworked?get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade. (28) 32% not at all, it's fine. (22) 25% reduce but keep damage on impact. (19) 22% this post's suggestion. (13) 15% remove damage on impact. (5) 6% buff or add counters to mass zealots. (1) 1% 88 total votes Your vote: how should charge be reworked? (Vote): not at all, it's fine. (Vote): remove damage on impact. (Vote): reduce but keep damage on impact. (Vote): get rid of charge completely and replace it with a pure speed upgrade. (Vote): buff or add counters to mass zealots. (Vote): this post's suggestion.
|
Honestly I don't know why Blizzard isn't trying to make the Zealot the tanky unit and the Adept the core dps unit... it seems so backwards to me.
|
Maybe not dark shrine but templar archive, and upgradable at Twilight council?
Also if movement speed upgrade is separated it needs to provide much higher speed boost. TBH that 30 guaranteed burst damage at twilight tech seems rather too powerful.
|
On August 27 2015 19:17 L3monsta wrote: Honestly I don't know why Blizzard isn't trying to make the Zealot the tanky unit and the Adept the core dps unit... it seems so backwards to me.
In some sense I agree. It would definetely mean that zealots and adepts will not be used effectively in the same composition, since the zealots always will tank for the adept. But in a pure range composition I don't see anything wrong with the adept being tanky.
|
On August 27 2015 19:17 L3monsta wrote: Honestly I don't know why Blizzard isn't trying to make the Zealot the tanky unit and the Adept the core dps unit... it seems so backwards to me.
This is so obvious they even had it right on WoW. (Melee -> tank, Range -> DPS)
|
Is it really strong? haven't seen much of it. MB it's just the huge macro nerf on Terran? or is it powerful in PvZ as well?
|
Czech Republic12116 Posts
Where is the concussive shells removal(or rework)? I mean charge is direct response in the game to concussive shells(from the design of the game) and it was buffed several times because of this skill. You cannot just change charge into speed and pretend everything is fine.
|
I still dont get why they buffed the zealot, its already a good unit, it got less used because adepts are way to OP. So they should have tone down the Adept not buff the zealot...
|
30 damage charge is ridonkulous. I think zealot should get the adept armor upgrade instead of the adept, and a flat speed boost upgrade (remove concussive shell)
|
It's too strong. Even if you push it into the lategame it's ridiculous what this 100/0/2 unit does. Zealots are already strong in HotS, the only reason why they were buffed in the first place is that adepts are a bit imbalanced (prism adept shit existed before the last patch already and was too strong; adepts in general were too strong against terran and protoss already). Nerf adepts and you will see more zealot usage to begin with.
|
On August 27 2015 21:10 deacon.frost wrote: I mean charge is direct response in the game to concussive shells(from the design of the game) and it was buffed several times because of this skill.
Lol, no. If you watch the 2007 SC-II alpha demo it's very clear that charge came first. Concussive shells didn't come out until the Battle Report in 2009.
|
I like it the way it is now (ofc nerf the charge or zealot somehow because its op atm). No matter how tanky you make the zealot, after they are taken care of (through stutter stepping) protoss will be left with a paper thin army (this is if you switch the roles of the zealot and adept like many are suggesting). With the way it is now protoss is guaranteed damage because of charge and the tankiness of the adept really gives great backbone to the left over protoss army even without splash. This is what protoss needs to not rely so much on splash crazy units like storm and collosi and it will lead to more stable games imo. The idea that range = dps and melee = buffer doesnt have to be true just because the melee units get hit first because in this case the melee units get guaranteed dmg and its up to the other race to micro around that (by liming surface area etc..).
|
On August 27 2015 21:10 deacon.frost wrote: Where is the concussive shells removal(or rework)? I mean charge is direct response in the game to concussive shells(from the design of the game) and it was buffed several times because of this skill. You cannot just change charge into speed and pretend everything is fine.
Everytime mentions Zealot charge I make this point.
You NEED charge to deal with concussive shells. Flat Zealot speed upgrade doesn't work as long as concussive shells are still in the game.
That said 30 damage on impact sounds ridiculous. Chargelots 1 shot workers.
|
I'd like to see how the game looks with Charge dealing a reasonable amount of damage on impact before just completely removing Charge. Also maybe the frequently-mentioned shield buff to 60. I'm thinking either 8 or 16 damage + the standard attack, and make Charge benefit from upgrades to the same degree as the standard attack.
|
Zealot's in BW did not need charge. Their was nothing that could slow them down (concussive shell) or stop them in their tracks (fungal), which is why they did not need charge, but only the speed upgrade. But still, 30 dmg on Charge is a bit too high, maybe 15-20, or even lower??! Zealots are supposed to be tanky units, they should get more health (as a future upgrade in twilight, templar archives) instead of having more DPS, leave that change for Stalkers...
|
On August 28 2015 00:58 Wrathsc2 wrote: I like it the way it is now (ofc nerf the charge or zealot somehow because its op atm). No matter how tanky you make the zealot, after they are taken care of (through stutter stepping) protoss will be left with a paper thin army (this is if you switch the roles of the zealot and adept like many are suggesting). With the way it is now protoss is guaranteed damage because of charge and the tankiness of the adept really gives great backbone to the left over protoss army even without splash. This is what protoss needs to not rely so much on splash crazy units like storm and collosi and it will lead to more stable games imo. The idea that range = dps and melee = buffer doesnt have to be true just because the melee units get hit first because in this case the melee units get guaranteed dmg and its up to the other race to micro around that (by liming surface area etc..).
Paper thin army & a lack of a back bone!? That is sooooo wrong of a statement. Every non-caster Protoss unit is a litteral tank for its cost and supply, especially when you put it on the scale of the other two races. For example, the Pre-Buff Adept was far more tankier than the Marine, Maradar, Zergling Hydralisk and nearly matching the Roach for tankiness. Protoss are overfilled with tanky units with a huge lack of damage units. This is specially why they depend so much on Storm and Collosi, because they desperatly have to find that damage output.
All the Adept is a unit that is even MORE tanky unit that is highly specialized in damage (which is what keeps them from being gamebreaking OP). In order words, in terms of stats, they are the Anti-Light verison of the Immortal but comes out a lot quicker in the game. Losing the Adept's tankiness will not make Protoss any less tanky.
And lastly, making the Zealot the damager makes it rather lack luster in attempting to sygnerize with it's other units. In concept, if the Zealot is the main source of damage output, what's the point of having the tank in the mixture when they take the damage after the damage dealers are dead. The Zealot has no sygnery with the other offensive units in their own race. They have few good army composition and most of them revolves around the Zealots absorbing the damage to allow their bigger guns to deal the damage.
|
Well... Now marines have 2 upgrades, zerglings have always had 2 upgrades, so why do zealots only get one?
|
On August 28 2015 03:47 BaronVonOwn wrote: Well... Now marines have 2 upgrades, zerglings have always had 2 upgrades, so why do zealots only get one?
Balance isn't equality. Thats all that needs to be said, really. Zealots dont need an extra upgrade anyways: they scale well into the lategame and are powerful at every stage of the game even with 1 upgrade.
|
Why not have charge be a passive speed boost as well as giving them the passive ability to not have their speed reduce by any spells? That seems to be a good buff to them.
|
I think a change so that the zealot charge does like 30 damage but only to armored units. ( or only to light units) This way good players can turn off charge and selectivly target high priority units. Charge would still be good for beginers since it is easy to use, but have a huge skill ceiling, similar to how there isn't really a ceiling to how well you split marines vs banes.
|
|
|
|