Laying down the Truth about SCII and Fun - Page 2
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Cele
Germany4013 Posts
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
I am running out of time, so I'll make this brief. In order of importance. 1. Make Zerg the swarm again. 2. Air units should be relegated to a supporting role. Definitely not a strong air-to-ground role. 3. Terrain should matter again. Fighting over terrain, over paths of terrain, etc. Like in BW. This is partially achieved with weaker air units. 4. Armor should not be a weakness. Anti armored units should be toned down. Marauder/Immortal/Roach trifecta since WoL beta. 5. Units should be more core. Less moba style abilities. This way terrain and fighting will be more traditional. Adept shade is the definition of gimmicky. Make its model bigger, and make it function similar to a dragoon. etc. All I have time for right now. Discuss. I agree with these points too, the ideas about changing other units are silly though | ||
timchen1017
37 Posts
On September 26 2015 07:26 MrInocence wrote: [I smurf a bit in the lower leagues, and mass reaper/voidray/cannon rush openings are incredibly popular. You have to think from the perspective of someone who just got the game, then gets reaper rushed. They're almost like ground oracles, when someone gets more than two of them. But what exactly is the point of a reaper? From my perspective, its more of a scouting tool than anything else. Using the same argument for the oracle, if it's primarily a scouting/utility tool, then why does it need an attack? Another analogy. People using the MSC to scout. That's perfectly fine, but what if the MSC also 2shotted workers? Is that really necessary? It needs an attack because if the opposition is not required to invest in defense, you are behind in economy or tech. Not saying the design is good, i agree this very extreme result of not having proper defense against oracle or widow mine is not so fun. But removing the attack kills their viability at the timing. | ||
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:04 timchen1017 wrote: It needs an attack because if the opposition is not required to invest in defense, you are behind in economy or tech. Not saying the design is good, i agree this very extreme result of not having proper defense against oracle or widow mine is not so fun. But removing the attack kills their viability at the timing. There is always the middle ground of giving the oracle/reaper a weaker attack. However I'm in favor of removing the attack and making them focus on their utility and support potential. Like imagine if observers had a little beam attack. Is that really necessary? | ||
hitpoint
United States1511 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:12 MrInocence wrote: There is always the middle ground of giving the oracle/reaper a weaker attack. However I'm in favor of removing the attack and making them focus on their utility and support potential. Like imagine if observers had a little beam attack. Is that really necessary? I guess I still don't see what's wrong with their current attack. It's really, really weak, and at least gives them some meaningful micro potential in the early game. I think you'll find that a purely scouting unit is much worse design when you think about it. I think you're saying that low level players die to reaper cheese? I think you'll find that low level players can die to pretty much anything in the right circumstance. They are nowhere near as strong as oracles in any regard. | ||
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:34 hitpoint wrote: I guess I still don't see what's wrong with their current attack. It's really, really weak, and at least gives them some meaningful micro potential in the early game. I think you'll find that a purely scouting unit is much worse design when you think about it. I think you're saying that low level players die to reaper cheese? I think you'll find that low level players can die to pretty much anything in the right circumstance. They are nowhere near as strong as oracles in any regard. Bleh I guess the analogy is mass reaper for a bronze player is like proxy oracle for a masters. But seeing as how TL is made of mostly semi-casual (ranking and improving) , semi-hard core (masters?), hard core (tries to hit top masters/gm), and professional players (gm), only the things that affect them matter. Filter's thread only touches upon what is frustrating at the very top of the ladder. | ||
Phaenoman
568 Posts
On September 26 2015 07:45 MrInocence wrote: At the beginning of the beta I remember people saying "Dont worry its just the beta everything's gonna be better at release" We are not at the beginning. What kind of argument is that? U will not change anything with that request. | ||
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On September 26 2015 08:57 Phaenoman wrote: We are not at the beginning. What kind of argument is that? U will not change anything with that request. I'm not buying the game. Only two of my friends bought HotS, they were plat Z and diamond P in WoL, neither of them continued laddering in HotS, and I'm pretty sure neither of them will buy LotV. I'm sure all of Team liquid will buy it, but that is their choice. It's not about the money, it's about voting with my wallet. Frankly disappointed with SCII and especially LotV for all the reasons stated in the thread. And for people saying 40$ is worth it for the campaign alone, then why make a damn multiplayer mode in the first place? So you're right. I'm not going to change anything with this request. It's just wishful thinking. | ||
AFKPuezo
183 Posts
I'm not going to pretend that the game is perfect or that there aren't changes I at least want to see tried out. But I think the ones you propose are waaaaaay too extreme and basically short-sighted. If you remove pulsar beam, no one will make oracles. If you remove reaper attack, no one will make reapers. If you remove Banshee cloak, no one will make banshees. If you remove hellion/hellbat AOE, no one will make them. If these units are too strong, or kill workers too fast, why not just reduce their damage? (Or even give workers more health) There's no reason to basically remove them from the game. I'm not going to pretend that I haven't been frustrated by drops, or mutas, or dark templar. But, the game needs them. Maybe some individual units are too strong or too weak, but without these harassment units people will be forced into the turtle->deathball->one giant fight thing every game, and you can't tell me that's fun. TL;DR The game is literally always going to be frustrating. That doesn't mean it can't be improved, but it's not productive to dream about broad, sweeping changes meant to remove frustration. And this is the ultimate problem with team liquid. "Don't like it? Too bad." I think it's more the problem with posting proposed changes to the game on a fan site that has no power to implement said changes (outside of user mods). The culture is (probably, I might be making this up) from the brood war days, when the game wasn't being regularly patched and you literally just had to deal with it. | ||
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On September 26 2015 09:23 Cold Warpgates wrote: Starcraft is always going to be frustrating. It's just inherent in the game. You could tweak individual units or abilities to make them individually less frustrating, sure. But it's still going to be a game of limited information, which is stressful - and you're going to lose to things you didn't see coming. It's always going to be a game of multi-tasking, which is stressful - and you're going to mis-allocate your attention and lose because of it. Even more fundamentally, starcraft is a game where you spend anywhere from 5 - 45 minutes making a beautiful sandcastle only to have someone come and try to kick it over. I'm not going to pretend that the game is perfect or that there aren't changes I at least want to see tried out. But I think the ones you propose are waaaaaay too extreme and basically short-sighted. If you remove pulsar beam, no one will make oracles. If you remove reaper attack, no one will make reapers. If you remove Banshee cloak, no one will make banshees. If you remove hellion/hellbat AOE, no one will make them. If these units are too strong, or kill workers too fast, why not just reduce their damage? (Or even give workers more health) There's no reason to basically remove them from the game. I'm not going to pretend that I haven't been frustrated by drops, or mutas, or dark templar. But, the game needs them. Maybe some individual units are too strong or too weak, but without these harassment units people will be forced into the turtle->deathball->one giant fight thing every game, and you can't tell me that's fun. TL;DR The game is literally always going to be frustrating. That doesn't mean it can't be improved, but it's not productive to dream about broad, sweeping changes meant to remove frustration. I think it's more the problem with posting proposed changes to the game on a fan site that has no power to implement said changes (outside of user mods). The culture is (probably, I might be making this up) from the brood war days, when the game wasn't being regularly patched and you literally just had to deal with it. Just making it less stressful. And there's only fifteen or so units per race. Individual unit changes mean a lot. For example, do you remember the Firecake vs Mana swarmhost spore forest vs deathball tempest era? The change to the swarmhost seriously saved HotS from a slow death by swarmhost. Actually oracles are a pretty good unit even when they do little to no damage. If I were lead designer, I'd remove the attack completely and make the oracle cheaper and solely for scouting, stasis ward, and revelation. For reapers, they might get one lucky worker kill in HotS pro games. Hardly consequential. But their effect is devastating in the lower leagues. Maybe decrease their damage. But I would honestly just remove the attack and keep it for scouting only. Without harassment units players are forced to "turtle->deathball->giant fight"? Players still do that with harassment units, they just suicide in and try to kill as many worker as possible to make the enemy deathball smaller. And that's a major problem with SCII, the deathballing. Deathballing is caused by a lot of different compounding is - unit clumping - you only ever need 3 bases, so why spread out your forces? - harassment by air circumvents everything anyway, so there's no need to spread out forces and control ground - on the same vein, terrain means very little and controlling ground and attack path means nothing because most damage comes in the form of air based harass. - some units work best clumped together in one ball etc etc About the posting on fan site thing, I post on bnet forums (yes yes we complain all the time), and they just don't listen to our feedback. At all. | ||
Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
On September 26 2015 07:49 MrInocence wrote: First of all... easier? Not once did I say to make Starcraft easier. I said to tone down the frustrating points. That has nothing to do with the difficulty of the game. Brood War was a more fun game. That's why it was more popular. Believe it or not fun games become popular games. HotS has less players than WoL precisely because of gameplay. CounterStrike had a few players, then made the gameplay better and created the gambling system and became immensely popular. LoL was gaining players because its gameplay was being improved every patch. Here's solution to all your problems: go back to playing brood war, sc2 =/= brood war. If you dislike it as much as you do and you wan't to change it to brood war, why bother? Just go install SC1 and play? Brood War was more popular? Are you joking? The only place Brood War was popular was Korea, while now Starcraft II is popular in most countries and it is the best RTS there is right now. I never understood people who wanted economy, game play or anything to be more like brood war, THIS ISN'T BROOD WAR GUYS IT'S STARCRAFT 2, play it or leave it. If I wanted to play brood war I know where to find it. I don't wanna play a game with all the changes you brought up and anyone who loves SC2 doesn't want those changes either. EDIT: You can't keep up with the game and you want Blizzard to make it super easy, no cloak units, any unit that is fast gets nerfed so it's in slow motion, harass units are useleses, etc. that's a shittier version of SC2. People from Blizzard aren't dumb, they understand game is becoming even harder in Legacy which is why they are introducing Archon mode, grab a friend and enjoy the game. At the end of the day, games are supposed to be for fun, if you don't enjoy it play something more casual and don't stress about it. | ||
ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On September 26 2015 07:34 CheddarToss wrote: Here is the ultimate solution to make the game more fun: Change your mindset. Dude, you should try playing 42 pick up. | ||
Cele
Germany4013 Posts
On September 26 2015 09:50 Beastyqt wrote: Here's solution to all your problems: go back to playing brood war, sc2 =/= brood war. If you dislike it as much as you do and you wan't to change it to brood war, why bother? Just go install SC1 and play? did that, never regretted it. Brood War was more popular? Are you joking? The only place Brood War was popular was Korea, while now Starcraft II is popular in most countries and it is the best RTS there is right now. true BW never was as popular as sc2 is right now. But it's still the best RTS out there right now, coz it's not a thing of the past. | ||
DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
And WoL had way more players than BW, not sure what you're talking about there. What numbers are you comparing? Hell, that's when TeamLiquid exploded. | ||
Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
On September 26 2015 09:58 Cele wrote: did that, never regretted it. true BW never was as popular as sc2 is right now. But it's still the best RTS out there right now, coz it's not a thing of the past. That is your opinion and opinion of the 5% people in the whole Starcraft community, you are free to play whatever you like. | ||
Cele
Germany4013 Posts
On September 26 2015 10:00 Beastyqt wrote: That is your opinion and opinion of the 5% people in the whole Starcraft community, you are free to play whatever you like. don't get me wrong, your opinion if fine, but don't present it like an irrevocable fact that "Sc2 is the best RTS out there", who could make such a statement? And tbh there is no "Starcraft community" as such in my opinion. There's a Broodwar and a Starcraft 2 community, they overlap here and there but are two different scenes. It's like saying "the ballsports community thinks soccer is the best game out there" when football fans disagree. Sc2 fans think it's the best game out there, that much is true, but that's kinda obvious and self referential. | ||
Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
On September 26 2015 10:06 Cele wrote: don't get me wrong, your opinion if fine, but don't present it like an irrevocable fact that "Sc2 is the best RTS out there", who could make such a statement. And rtbh there is no "Starcraft community" as such in my opinion. There's a Broodwar and a Starcraft 2 community, they overlap here and there but are two different scenes. It's like saying "the ballsports community thinks soccer is the best game out there" when football fans disagree. I said it based on viewership and player base, but like I said one game can be best for you and other game can be best for me. | ||
Cele
Germany4013 Posts
On September 26 2015 10:10 Beastyqt wrote: I said it based on viewership and player base, but like I said one game can be best for you and other game can be best for me. sure, no issues with that :> | ||
Draddition
United States57 Posts
Yeah, a cannon rush can be frustrating. But lower level players tend to see it as something they recognize, and something interesting. Unprepared for DT's end the game, but games don't last that long- its not that big of a deal to start the next one. What I see that keeps players from enjoying the game, is a lack of feeling in control. They're flustered by all the things they have to do, and never have a moment to sit back a figure out a gameplan for how to fix it. As soon as one problem is addressed, you realize 3 more have been neglected. But that very same thing is what I, and many others, LOVE about SC2. I have to put 100% of my mechanical ability, and 100% of my strategic ability, and even that isn't good enough. Thats where archon mode can save the day. My friends and I have had a blast playing archon mode, because they can go out and focus on doing one thing right, while I manage all the little things. That's what will keep the lower-league community playing. | ||
SCST
Mexico1609 Posts
Starcraft 2 had it's chance and lost it. Enjoy the two or three months that it regains some viewers and players after launch, but after that it's going to way of Brood War. And having stated this, I want to disclose that I don't pretend to know the answers to fixing the game, or to have "great ideas", but I know that Blizzard didn't fix the game in the time that was given, and they certainly didn't give any of the community ideas any serious thought. Just goes to show what self-destructive egomaniacs work on the SC2 team. | ||
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