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Olaf, The Berserker
+ Show Spoiler [Patch Notes] +V1.0.0.125 Base armor increased to 17 from 14. Reckless Swing: mana cost (50) has been removed.
V1.0.0.115 Fixed a bug where Ragnarok was reducing true damage.
V1.0.0.111 Fixed a bug where Undertow could hit the same target twice.
V1.0.0.110 Fixed a bug where Undertow could not deal damage to the same target within 1 second of the previous hit.
V1.0.0.108 Vicious Strikes: Base damage reduced to 7/14/21/28/35 from 10/17/24/31/38. Health scaling increased to 1% from 0.5%.
V1.0.0.107 Undertow now deal physical damage instead of magic damage. Vicious Strikes Health scaling changed to 0.5% at all ranks from 0.3/0.6/0.9/1.2/1.5%. Base damage changed to 10/17/24/31/38 from 12/18/24/30/36. Ragnarok damage reduction reduced to 20/30/40 from 25/45/65.
V1.0.0.98 Undertow slow increased to 24/28/32/36/40% from 16/22/28/34/40%.
V1.0.0.96 Ragnarok now displays "Cannot be Disabled!" when it blocks a debuff. + Show Spoiler [Stats] + Health ............ 441 (+93) Mana ............. 225 (+45) Damage ......... 54.1 (+3.5) Attack Speed . 0.694 (+2.7%) Range ............ 125 Health Regen .. 7.0 (+0.9) Mana Regen ... 6.5 (+0.575) Armor ............ 20 (+3) Magic Res ...... 30 (+1.25) Mov. Speed .... 320
Abilities:
Passive - Berserker Rage For each 1% of health missing, Olaf's attack speed increases by 1%.
Pretty self-explanatory, sometimes combined with w it lets you "freeze" your hp at low level while killing a low-dps enemy super fast. Olaf's skillset makes him a beast 1v1 and this one is no exception.
Q - Undertow Olaf throws an axe to a target location, dealing (50/90/130/170/210) (+(0.5 per attack damage point)) physical damage to units it passes through and slowing them by (24/28/32/36/40)% for 2.5 seconds.
If Olaf picks up the axe, the ability's cooldown is reduced by 6 seconds.
Cooldown: 10 seconds Range: 1000 Cost: 55 / 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 mana
This skill is awesome. It makes your early and mid game SUPER strong (and Olaf is a lategame beast so this skill allows you to get there painless). While the ad scaling doesn't seem too high it really has influences your dps output a lot. First of all 40% slow is huuuge, second - picking the axe is sick mechanic and it's one of the things that bad Olafs do wrong. When you are attacking someone make sure to ALWAYS throw the axe in a way that will make it land on enemy's escape path. You want to pick it up when chasing enemy, if enemy isn't running away you just throw it under his feet to pick it up instantly. With 40% cdr you are hitting 210 (0,5 ad scaling) AD once every ~half of a second - that's huge damage output and it's limited only by your mana pool. And it's AOE. Remember - never throw your axe in the direction that you won't head to. Also Undertow has nice synergy with his ulti's armor pen since it deals physical damage.
W - Vicious Strikes For 6 seconds, Olaf's attack damage is increased by (7/14/21/28/35) (+(0.01 per health point) [1% of maximum Health]) and he gains (9/12/15/18/21)% lifesteal and spell vamp.
Cooldown: 12 seconds Cost: 40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 mana
Another self-explanatory skill, just like your passive it makes you beast 1v1, giving you bonus ad + half of atma's passive and bonus lifesteal and spellvamp - which combined with your passive lets you "freeze" your hp at low level while killing a low-dps enemy super fast. It also improves your sustain in jungle greatly.
E - Reckless Swing Olaf deals (100/160/220/280/340) true damage to his target and inflicts (40/64/88/112/136) true damage to himself.
Cooldown: 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 / 4 seconds Range: 325 Cost: 40 / 64 / 88 / 112 / 136 health
We love true damage. We, looooove true damage. This skill wrecks squishies and is useful when facing enemies with high armor. If you prefer skilling it over Q you will 3-shot squishies with this skill at lvl 9 (especially since nowadays ad carries go bot = less max hp). This also lets you counter stuff like Alistar's ultimate.
R - Ragnarok Active: For (5/6.5/8) seconds, Olaf is immune to disables and reduces incoming damage by (20/30/40).
Passive: Olaf has (10/20/30) increased armor penetration.
Cooldown: 100 seconds Cost: 100 / 75 / 50 mana
IMO this is one of the best ultimates in the game, there's so much cool stuff about it and most people seem to underappreciate Ragnarok. It has great synergy with his other skills (this kinda applies to every Olaf's skill). The passive part - everyone seems to forget about it - 30 arpen combined with arpen reds and quints gives you 55 arpen which means that you will be dealing true damage/close to true damage vs squishies. The active part - not only is he immune to disable but he gets old feint-like effect. While -40 dmg doesn't seem huge when cait with IE crits you with her passive it still does matter in most of the teamfights and when enemy AD is too busy running away from you to attack you. Immunity to disables makes it impossible for enemy ccbots to peel you from the enemy. Also this skill not only get stronger with each level but cheaper as well
Guides While i think solo top Olaf isn't terrible he may have problems vs real sustain beasts, haven't really tried to do it except for smurf games so i'll just describe my way to jungle as Olaf.
Jungle Olaf Summoner Skills: Ghost + Smite. Reasoning for summoners: Ghost - Olaf is one of very few champs i pick ghost on, i think flash olaf COULD work, however Olaf has no ms boost skill (he has no gap closer as well) and i think ghost is really crucial in teamfights for him. Smite is probably self-explanatory and if they don't change it there will be always the same reasoning for smite, so let me just quote my thoughts on smite from my previous thread: "Well first of all - it does make your jungling faster. It allows you to grab blue lvl 1 with no problem. And the most important part - it prevents buff steals. When you hit 18 level it gives you ~1k damage nuke vs jungle creeps (deals ~700 damage to baron). It is just vital to last hit that Dragon/Baron. If 2 competent teams meet both having a jungler - the one without smite will lose." Note that the smite values are a bit off because back then smite didn't deal true damage. If you want to play jungler, then 420 + 25 x lvl is the most important equation you need to solve quickly When doing dragon/baron ALWAYS have it selected and watch the rate at which hp of the monster drops, once it goes under a breakpoint (for example if you are lvl 16 you wait for baron to drop to 820 hp and hit shift+smite - smartcast - ASAP)
Masteries: 1/8/21 <- click me. I follow the philosophy of "always go utility on jungler if you can". While Olaf could work with offensive setup (21/x/x) - since it speeds jungle up for autoattacking jungler - i really love the reduced CD on summoner spells (like i said Olaf has no ms boost/gap closer so the lower cd of ghost the better), more ms, longer buff duration (most of the time you are going to give your 2./3. blue/red to your carry though), mana regen and cooldowns (even though he is autoattacker Olaf loooves both these stats due to Q)
Runes: Armor penetration reds armor yellows magic resist/lvl blues armor pen quints. The armor pen quints + armors combines with your Ragnarok's passive part awesomely well. Armor is here because it helps your jungling and mres/lvl blues are just awesome
Skill order: R>Q>E>W Start with QWQE, W is 1 point wonder (for the half-atma and 9% lifesteal/spellvamp) and E isn't necessary for jungling + costs hp so take W at lvl 2. Max Q because if you land it properly you get huge AOE dmg output + it lets you clear waves really fast (REAAALLLY fast) and the slow is good for ganking of course. E>W instead of W>E because W is 1 point wonder and E will still eat huge portion of squishies' hp midgame
Item build: Start with: + 5x Then you want to have these items - standard autoattack jungler's core:
Back in the times when HoG used to be buildable from cloth armor + ruby crystal going instead of used to be really good strat for early . Nowadays i really don't recommend skipping , since you want to clear jungle as quickly as possible and also be able to sneak dragon in case enemies didn't ward it/got too many people top.
You want your lategame item build to look like this: . On Olaf I'd recommend finishing warmog before atma - since his w acts like half of atma and his Q and E give him solid damage output.
Last item: It is really a matter of preferrence, personally i LOVE: - more armor, some more hp (which will be converted to ad with atma and w) and aoe ms/aspd slow which will make enemy AD carry have really huge problem. isn't bad either if enemies have loads of autoattackers Sometimes get as well, because i consider it to be a really good pick on champs with good sustain, especially since with Olaf the lower hp you get the stronger you are and you can be reaaaly annoying when you "freeze" your hp at about 200 More slows! More damage. More hp! Combined with atma and w even more damage! You can of course replace with if you the need spellblock more than bigger mres boost.
Playstyle You want to jungle (since it's jungling guide of course), preferably start with blue (you can start anywhere if you want to rely on your passive+w but Q spam is what makes your earlygame jungling fast). Ask nicely for a leash, remember to "stack" camp creeps once they aggro on you so you hit all creeps with your axe (practice this in a custom game). Your early ganks are strong in terms of damage output but if the enemy has flash they aren't as good as the ganks from other junglers because you lack a stun and/or gap closer. Still this doesn't mean that if you have the opportunity you shouldn't gank, just burning enemy's flash may (or may not) win give ally huge advantage in the lane and once you land an axe that you can pick your enemy will get dealt a lot of dmg. With Olaf you ideally want to gank a lane where your team has 2 stuns. Your teamfighting is very strong, if you went atmogs you will be super tanky while at the same time you will output huge damage. You are very good at rushing enemy carry but you have to be in a good position to do so and be sure that the enemy team won't disengage. If you ghost+ulti and the enemies will disengage (because for example your team wasn't ready to fight or enemies were in good position, etc) you just did it wrong. Remember to build tanky, you want to sit on enemy carry and you won't be able to do it with 2k hp and 0 armor/mres - it's the same rule as with most other melee dps, except with Olaf more hp makes you more deadly.
My personal thoughts on Olaf and why is he underplayed nowadays: Not only do Olaf's skills have awesome synergy with one another (ultimate's armor pen improves his Q awesomely well, W allows you to spellvamp from Q and E as well as gives him incredible sustain at low hp combined with his passive) but they cover one another's weaknesses - earlygame is strong thanks to undertow, his midgame is strong thanks to undertow and E (reckless swing) and his lategame is strong thanks to atmos+w+ult+passive. Olaf's skillset allows him to be strong teamfighter at each stage of the game, W gives you sustain, Q gives you small poke To me he seems like what should be the definition of perfectly balanced melee DPS - reaaally strong and not as easily kited/peeled as nasus/udyr thanks to his ulti but not as OP since he can't jump through half of the battlefield like some blind monks can. I think the biggest reason why we don't see him too often is because he requires quite a lot of farm AND has no gap closer. Also his ganks aren't that great if the allies you are ganking for don't have too much cc.
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how about get frozen mallet instead of warmog u sacrifice i litte bit of hp for perma slow and dmg also ghost blade suits olaf pretty well
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Mallet isn't bad replacement for Warmogs, you already have a permaslow with your Q but if you feel like it isn't enough you could grab mallet. Fully stacked warmogs gives you 41 ad with atma + w on, mallet gives you 20 ad from item and 21 ad from atma+w on. I feel like warmog vs mallet may be more of a matter of preference (more hp vs stacked slows), personally i like to have huge hp pool midgame. Youmu's is probably one of core solo top Olaf items but i wouldn't recommend it in the jungle since combined with lantern it may delay your tankiness for too long and as Olaf you will be in the heart of combat so you do need the tankiness.
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well i think warmogs are better than frozen mallet if u max q first (which is the best way to play olaf imo) since if u play olaf u just have to hit those q if u dont hit them u better not play olaf at all. And more than 500 hp (with max stacked warmogs) is not 'little hp' i'd say.
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Precisely speaking it's 1370 hp (full stax warmog) vs 700 hp (mallet).
Also i kinda stole thread template from Smash's WW thread since it's goo :x
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yah its almost double hp, real huge difference.
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I don't get Wriggles on Olaf. Why? First, you jungle faster at lower hp. Wriggles keeps you at full or nearly full hp. It still speeds up your jungle, but not as much as on most people. Second, Olaf needs lots of items. Third, Wriggles stats aren't amazing on him. He certainly doesn't mind, but I'd rather be halfway to warmogs or 3/5 of the way to Ghostblade. It's mostly a matter of preference, I think, but by the time you get Wriggles jungle isn't that important any more. Brutalizer boosts your damage by so much more. On Qfirst olaf I love rushing ghostblade. On Efirst olaf I love rushing atmogs.
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On September 21 2011 22:56 Tooplark wrote: I don't get Wriggles on Olaf. Why? First, you jungle faster at lower hp. Wriggles keeps you at full or nearly full hp. It still speeds up your jungle, but not as much as on most people. Second, Olaf needs lots of items. Third, Wriggles stats aren't amazing on him. He certainly doesn't mind, but I'd rather be halfway to warmogs or 3/5 of the way to Ghostblade. It's mostly a matter of preference, I think, but by the time you get Wriggles jungle isn't that important any more. Brutalizer boosts your damage by so much more. On Qfirst olaf I love rushing ghostblade. On Efirst olaf I love rushing atmogs. #1 rule of jungle- NEVER sacrifice safety for speed. Playing risky is the number 1 way to throw away a game in the jungle, especially against good players.
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On September 21 2011 23:05 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 22:56 Tooplark wrote: I don't get Wriggles on Olaf. Why? First, you jungle faster at lower hp. Wriggles keeps you at full or nearly full hp. It still speeds up your jungle, but not as much as on most people. Second, Olaf needs lots of items. Third, Wriggles stats aren't amazing on him. He certainly doesn't mind, but I'd rather be halfway to warmogs or 3/5 of the way to Ghostblade. It's mostly a matter of preference, I think, but by the time you get Wriggles jungle isn't that important any more. Brutalizer boosts your damage by so much more. On Qfirst olaf I love rushing ghostblade. On Efirst olaf I love rushing atmogs. #1 rule of jungle- NEVER sacrifice safety for speed. Playing risky is the number 1 way to throw away a game in the jungle, especially against good players.
You're not sacrificing safety for speed by not getting Wriggles. You're sacrificing a little bit of speed and a lot of safety for having 1.5k gold towards a big item. Playing risky in jungle is the #1 way to get an advantage if you know what you're doing better than your opponent.
Actually, speed is its own form of safety. If you clear fast enough, they have no time to counterjungle and where you are is also less predictable.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 21 2011 22:56 Tooplark wrote: I don't get Wriggles on Olaf. Why? First, you jungle faster at lower hp. Wriggles keeps you at full or nearly full hp. It still speeds up your jungle, but not as much as on most people. Second, Olaf needs lots of items. Third, Wriggles stats aren't amazing on him. He certainly doesn't mind, but I'd rather be halfway to warmogs or 3/5 of the way to Ghostblade. It's mostly a matter of preference, I think, but by the time you get Wriggles jungle isn't that important any more. Brutalizer boosts your damage by so much more. On Qfirst olaf I love rushing ghostblade. On Efirst olaf I love rushing atmogs. Not getting Wriggle's pretty much forces you to hog your 2nd blue, as without Wriggle's procs, you need to Q-spam to keep up your jungling speed (as much as the ASpd boost from being low life helps, you still need Q for that fast clearing if you have no Wriggle's). At this point, I HATE being committed to needing your own 2nd blue, because being able to give it away is gamebreaking in so many mid matchups. Wriggle's allows you to keep your speed while conserving mana, which is a huge deal.
It also makes you arguably the fastest jungler for doing Dragon in the game.
On September 21 2011 23:05 Two_DoWn wrote: #1 rule of jungle- NEVER sacrifice safety for speed. Playing risky is the number 1 way to throw away a game in the jungle, especially against good players. If that were actually a rule, Warwick would be a much stronger jungle pick than he actually is.
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Do you plan to talk about solo top Olaf?
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I play solo top olaf. I can write about it later when I have time @_@
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Warmogs is stronger than Frozen Mallet because you should be hogging red to begin with. There isn't a huge price difference between the two so usually when you can get one you can get the other. The only time I would say Mallet over Warmogs is if you really don't think you'll be able to charge it fast enough, which should be almost never since your Q lets you clear creep waves pretty quickly
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On September 22 2011 02:41 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 23:05 Two_DoWn wrote: #1 rule of jungle- NEVER sacrifice safety for speed. Playing risky is the number 1 way to throw away a game in the jungle, especially against good players. If that were actually a rule, Warwick would be a much stronger jungle pick than he actually is. Warwick's a really really strong jungle pick.
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I think if warwick gets fast oracles he's really scary because warwick just needs 6 to threaten a kill on any mid lane and most top/bot lanes but you have to pull off shenanigans with like lane ganks and shit to get it off because people always have wards by the time you're 6.
I also don't think safety in jungle is THAT big a deal. It kinda depends though. It's pretty easy to cv their jungle but if their mid can threaten to kill you just by leaving lane that's another story.
I also think frozen mallet is decent but only if you won't get farmed enough to stack warmogs. If warmogs gets stacked it's so much better than mallet. The damage you lose is more than made up for in Olafs W and atmas and plus, you can always just get a phage.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 22 2011 05:22 Mogwai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:41 TheYango wrote:On September 21 2011 23:05 Two_DoWn wrote: #1 rule of jungle- NEVER sacrifice safety for speed. Playing risky is the number 1 way to throw away a game in the jungle, especially against good players. If that were actually a rule, Warwick would be a much stronger jungle pick than he actually is. Warwick's a really really strong jungle pick. He's not ban/firstpick-worthy the way Udyr/LS/Noct/GP are, but this will very quickly get into a discussion that derails this thread. My point was simply that "never give up safety for speed" is hardly a "rule" as TwoDown put it, and there are other factors contributing to the Wriggle's discussion.
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Regarding the lantern vs no lantern i feel like even though you CAN jungle without the lantern it really is worth it to pay more gold in order to get more jungling speed. Since your gank's won't be as hard as for example tigerdyr's ones you really should be able to be everywhere without sacrificing jungling speed. Also sometimes you will need to sneak dragon ASAP and lantern speeds it up. I'd risk saying that out of all the lantern junglers he needs it the least, but it is such an awesome item that i don't like the idea of skipping it.
On September 22 2011 03:27 dnastyx wrote: Do you plan to talk about solo top Olaf? Nope, i don't consider myself being experienced enough with solo top Olaf. Will add guides to the OP if someone makes one though.
On September 22 2011 04:20 De4ngus wrote: I play solo top olaf. I can write about it later when I have time @_@ Yes please, no need to hurry, you can just write in parts, save the WIP in notepad and post once it's done If i don't add it to the OP just PM me and i will
On September 22 2011 05:21 STS17 wrote:
Agreed.
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On September 21 2011 23:05 Two_DoWn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 22:56 Tooplark wrote: I don't get Wriggles on Olaf. Why? First, you jungle faster at lower hp. Wriggles keeps you at full or nearly full hp. It still speeds up your jungle, but not as much as on most people. Second, Olaf needs lots of items. Third, Wriggles stats aren't amazing on him. He certainly doesn't mind, but I'd rather be halfway to warmogs or 3/5 of the way to Ghostblade. It's mostly a matter of preference, I think, but by the time you get Wriggles jungle isn't that important any more. Brutalizer boosts your damage by so much more. On Qfirst olaf I love rushing ghostblade. On Efirst olaf I love rushing atmogs. #1 rule of jungle- NEVER sacrifice safety for speed. Playing risky is the number 1 way to throw away a game in the jungle, especially against good players.
er, no. not really. there's a balance between the two, that's actually incredibly flexible. An example of a problem case would be yorick, who i can jungle very safely (his e is nuts for sustain), but early levels, it literally takes him forever to clear camps making him a very weak jungle pick and pretty much why i stopped jungling him. Another example, you never take cloth+pots on ww or nunu, kus even tho you will last forever in the jungle, its insanely slow and inefficient.
In any case, the only real point in time where i am really worried about safety is lvls 1-4~6ish depending on the champ. Past that, you're kinda expected to have enough map awarenes/ward coverage to avoid counterjungling for the most part, or in some cases to know when its fine to sacrifice some of your jungle to the other team (i.e. in favor of a gank or dragon, etc.), and wriggles is typically when i'm not so worried about safety anymore and is almost purely a jungle speed item, that happens to provide more sustain and a slick active.
on another note, that wasnt even what rugfeeder was discussing anyways. he was going for slightly less speed for earlier transition into useful midgame items. Pretty different in my eyes. On a somewhat related note, one of the major factors in me not playing jungle loaf anymore was how much i felt gimped by a number of changes over time that eventually led to me feeling forced to take wriggles in order to keep up in speed with other junglers (also why i stopped playing udyr for a while). I haven't really revisited him since then so i have no idea if he still needs it or not.
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basically rugfeeder loves his warmogs and hates his team
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I dont know it just feels right for me to get frozen and leave red for carry. Also i max w first because olaf is autoattack champ. Getting ghost blade wriggle and starks get with your w hudge lifesteal and more your hit the bigger your as gets. Also armor pen from ghost blade do nicely with ult passive
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You don't max w first because at level 9 you deal most damage with continuous q or e.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 22 2011 15:48 Hexagecz wrote: I dont know it just feels right for me to get frozen and leave red for carry. Also i max w first because olaf is autoattack champ. Getting ghost blade wriggle and starks get with your w hudge lifesteal and more your hit the bigger your as gets. Also armor pen from ghost blade do nicely with ult passive W max sucks--it gains the least from being ranked of all of Olaf's spells. Compare:
Q--gains 25 mana cost, 160 damage, and 16% slow chance. W--gains 20 mana cost, 28 AD, and 12% lifesteal/spellvamp E--gains 96 health cost, half CD, and 240 damage.
You simply cannot autoattack fast enough with W to do more damage with it than with Q or E, not even considering the fact that you're much more likely to land Qs and Es than get continuous autoattacks.
It's a 1-point wonder because of the 1% max HP steroid that applies at all ranks, but other than that, there's very little you gain on successive ranks.
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SOLO TOP OLAF
armorpen mark dodge seal flat mr glyph armor, mr, whatever u need quint
start cloth and 5 potion( a lot of ppl can shit on u). max w first and pretend like ur irelia farmfarmfarm then i get E > Q (i cannot throw axe) get wriggle or if ur balls are very large get gunblade i get mallet instead of warmog(i cannot throw axe) rest is atma, fon, whatever u want
O YEA summoners - flash exhaust is nice what u do is when someone is low u go FLASH E BAM GOT U BITCH masteries i go 21/9/0 because damage is nice
dont forget to turn on w before e spellvamp is nice late game u beat everyone so just farm and ks people when u can i cannot even throw axe but still kill everyone
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I take full Apen (so with your passive you do tons of damage) flat armor/resist.
Boots/regrowth if you can win/not lose lane. Cloth 5 pot for those you must.
Max e cause it deals tons of damage and costs no mana. I've been going qeqee but maybe I'll take a level of w, although I think another level of q is better.
flash/ghost/exhuast/tele/ignite, I've been trying to go flash ghost because ghost goes well with ult but then you lose the exhaust/ignite/tele spot. Flash because everyone else carries flash and even with ghost/ult you can't do anything about enemies flashing over the wall.
0/21/9 because you already deal shitton of damage.
Before I just rushed warmog's (or two, lol) atmas. Just farm farm. Now I'm trying tank-cdr like how I build Nasus so you can have philo in lane and cdr to do massive damage in teamfights as well as tankiness (Kindlegem/SR + Shroud/FH) and mercs.
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On September 22 2011 18:12 De4ngus wrote: SOLO TOP OLAF
armorpen mark dodge seal flat mr glyph armor, mr, whatever u need quint
start cloth and 5 potion( a lot of ppl can shit on u). max w first and pretend like ur irelia farmfarmfarm then i get E > Q (i cannot throw axe) get wriggle or if ur balls are very large get gunblade i get mallet instead of warmog(i cannot throw axe) rest is atma, fon, whatever u want
O YEA summoners - flash exhaust is nice what u do is when someone is low u go FLASH E BAM GOT U BITCH masteries i go 21/9/0 because damage is nice
dont forget to turn on w before e spellvamp is nice late game u beat everyone so just farm and ks people when u can i cannot even throw axe but still kill everyone I disagree with almost this entire build.
QWQEQR -> R > Q > E > W
1/21/8, ghost/exhaust, ghost rules on Olaf with his ult. You can also go ghost/flash.
Your runes are OK, mine are my standard ArPen Marks, 4 Dodge Seals, 5 Armor Seals, 3 MRes Glyphs, 6 Scaling MRes Glyphs, 1 Armor Quint, 2 MRes Quints, but as long as they're tanky you're alright, movespeed Quints would also probably be pretty alright.
I typically open Regen Pendent -> Philo + Hog -> Warmog's -> Phage -> Atma's.
I guess... just learn to hit your Q.
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i cannot throw axe so good, no es viable caracter
E>Q is nice if you're facing someone who has to get close to you, but even then Q has significant advantages: no health cost, actual slow, more damage if they stand and fight Also flat CDR blues on olaf: suprgood
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everyone thinks that build is retarded when they first see it. i thought so too until i tried it. some people can take a huge dump on u in lane. i dont think throwing axe good solves that problem but idk maybe im just the worst at axe.
ya ghost is nice on olaf but i still think it is preference since i use flash on everyone but singed.
also no one talked about boots lol. the gold ones are nice for more dodge for more zoomzoom. sometimes u just need mercs. i guess the attack speed ones are ok if u really want? i wouldnt get it though.
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gunblade no cost efficient if you can't use the ap, w is usually enough spellvamp/lifesteal w first is not terrible but i'd rather be able to trade since i can't farm safely Irelia can max hiten style first because 1) she can dash in ezpz 2) she doesn't have as severe mana limitations 3) it heals for way more 4) it gives her true damage imba. Olaf with WEWEWRWEW can vamp more off of his close range 200-damage nuke i guess?
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gunblade is real strong. i realize after i see loci build it on panth. big problem is how expensive it is when ur core is mallet/warmog with atma and fon so i usually get wriggle. about the mana thing w costs 60 at max rank and e is free sooo ya.
i just want people to give it a try. if ur high elo and find in games that Q>E>W is always better in lane and w first sucks ballz then u can let me know.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36671 Posts
I hate this guy so much..... u can't kill him.....
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So, it was announced already that Olaf is getting some buffs.
However, in the Patch Preview Spotlight today I only get that they want to make the activation of his ult break current CC on Olaf but in exchange lowered the duration of his Ult.
Did I miss something or are these all the buffs (plural of buffs is a joke in that case) Morello said we would **** bricks if we saw them? -.-
In addition, except for really hard CC like stun or suppression, you already could use his ult to escape if you were under the influence of current cc (for example Morgana bind: it hits you -> R -> free).
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On October 30 2011 00:13 little fancy wrote:So, it was announced already that Olaf is getting some buffs. However, in the Patch Preview Spotlight today I only get that they want to make the activation of his ult break current CC on Olaf but in exchange lowered the duration of his Ult. Did I miss something or are these all the buffs (plural of buffs is a joke in that case) Morello said we would **** bricks if we saw them? -.- In addition, except for really hard CC like stun or suppression, you already could use his ult to escape if you were under the influence of current cc (for example Morgana bind: it hits you -> R -> free).
On October 29 2011 14:13 STS17 wrote: The fact is now you can hold off on using the ult until you need it, which is huge. Now you FORCE someone to waste their CC on you (because if they don't you don't waste your ult, and can continue to eat their faces) which you can then cleanse and then be immune to. This is going to be crippling to low-CC teams and still a not-insignificant annoyance to heavy-CC teams.
It's not like you can just let Olaf auto attack all day while trying to focus him down because he has such insane innate sustain from his W but now that he doesn't have to "waste" his ult early he will overall be much harder to deal with.
Food for Thought: Will it work like Remove Scurvy and remove all forms of CC including Suppression?
If they add EAT FRUIT -> WALK AWAY to Olaf's ult he will be extremely strong
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like, already said by little fancy, olaf can already get out of most CC's with the old ult. You can get out of snares and slows, withers, or projectile stuns, such as taric, sion... Plus if you wait to eat a CC then ult, you will just get kited even more. Most of the time you activate it before you go in, so they can't stop you, but now if you "eat the CC first", you stop even for a moment, the enemy can then create more distance, so you will have to run more, combine that with the time reduction, it's definitely a nerf to his team fighting.
And I think this is very important point: "Olaf can ALREADY get out of most CC's"
The ult change is both a buff and a nerf. A buff for early game, where you are more 1v1'ing and clearning out of CC is more important and a nerf late game, because your ult also provided you with 40% damage reduction and eating a CC is then use your ult ensures you get kited even more.
Idk, what do you guys think? This is just my personal opinion from playing Olaf
edit: I don't think it's been mentioned, but the changes are going to be from 5/6.5/8 second duration to a flat 6 seconds duration.
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I'm pretty sure Olaf's ulti just reduces damage by 40, not 40%. So that's really not the main thing about it considering at level 16 there are carries hitting for much more than that.
I'm extremely hyped for these changes as I've always liked him but never dared picking him for games I actually wanted to win.
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yes u are right it's only flat reduction, I made a mistake.
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On October 31 2011 07:53 Wayra wrote: like, already said by little fancy, olaf can already get out of most CC's with the old ult. You can get out of snares and slows, withers, or projectile stuns, such as taric, sion... Plus if you wait to eat a CC then ult, you will just get kited even more. Most of the time you activate it before you go in, so they can't stop you, but now if you "eat the CC first", you stop even for a moment, the enemy can then create more distance, so you will have to run more, combine that with the time reduction, it's definitely a nerf to his team fighting.
And I think this is very important point: "Olaf can ALREADY get out of most CC's"
The ult change is both a buff and a nerf. A buff for early game, where you are more 1v1'ing and clearning out of CC is more important and a nerf late game, because your ult also provided you with 40% damage reduction and eating a CC is then use your ult ensures you get kited even more.
Idk, what do you guys think? This is just my personal opinion from playing Olaf
edit: I don't think it's been mentioned, but the changes are going to be from 5/6.5/8 second duration to a flat 6 seconds duration.
If the duration info you gave is correct, I think I can live with that. Lategame teamfights are usually decided in few seconds as the bullshit flying around deals shittons of damage so 6 seconds you can have when you really need them should be enough time to get close and destroy the enemy carry.
However, the ult change is not the only change afaik. Ppl are talking about Q travelling faster which I'd consider a really huge buff.
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just tried olaf after buff, this is my impression: his Q travel time is great, it's so easy to hit people. It feels so fast.
His ult change is pretty decent too, definite buff to lane olaf as you are ungankable.
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The only problem i have having with olaf top is getting ganked pre level 6, all these level 2 riven and leesin ganks really hurt. It's like you have to start boots when you might want to start cloth.
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If you run Flash / Ghost as summoner spells and don't push too hard (you will a little since spamming E draws enemy minion aggro to you), you should be able to make it to lvl 6 without dying.
In addition, if you used E frequently enough on your lane opponent while keeping your health high with cloth + 5x HP pot, he should be too low at health to join the gank actively (I love how enemy melees are at 50% health or less after 5 last hits).
Q speed is now so good. I didn't imagine that a speed increase by 100 units makes that much of a difference, but if you played Olaf before, you can really feel it now!
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On November 03 2011 05:14 HAL9OOO wrote: The only problem i have having with olaf top is getting ganked pre level 6, all these level 2 riven and leesin ganks really hurt. It's like you have to start boots when you might want to start cloth.
CV is your friend
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On November 03 2011 21:19 ihasaKAROT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 05:14 HAL9OOO wrote: The only problem i have having with olaf top is getting ganked pre level 6, all these level 2 riven and leesin ganks really hurt. It's like you have to start boots when you might want to start cloth. CV is your friend That's out of your control though, unless you want to run cv on your solo top l0l. Of course knowing jungle timings and so on helps, but especially in soloqueue do terrible stuff and are therefore less predictable.
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Getting ganked is just the life of a solo top you have to just play safe if you expect their jungler can come gank your lane. It sucks but remember if the jungler tries to gank and fails he's wasting a lot of time but even 1 kill makes a lot of time worth it. If your lane pushes because the other guy pushed to tower and it's pushing back it's fair to just backand get a ward and whatever you can buy instead of running the risk of dying. Don't just follow waves everywhere they go good junglers latch onto that shit and will be waiting when your wave pushes out either in the brush or waiting for you to ward etc. Mid and bot are hard to gank because mid is usually an ranged champ with flash up playing fairly back in a short lane and usually with some kind of CC and bot is pretty consistently warded and is more likely to get CVs on their lane due to the support, so top is a prime target and good solo top players are half playing against the jungler not just their laners.
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There's also some early timings (level 2 double golem ganks, level 3 shaco ganks) for ganking top where the jungler outlevels top lane. Yet another scary part about laning top.
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So, Olaf. Just bought him, played 2 games, and I'll probably run him in the jungle as top would probably require more experience, esp. with match-ups (and it's easier to grab jungle than solotop in normals to learn).
TL;DR: I know he isn't especially good because of his clearing time, no hard-cc ganks and need for farm (hell, one of my main junglers is Trundle), he may just suit my tastes and I'm wondering what to build on him (and in which order).
From first impressions and his spells descriptions, looks like he needs: 1° HP to go with his W, ability to spam E, and bruiser status 2° some way to stick to people (be it ms buff/debuff or something else) because he has no gapcloser 3° attack speed, as he already has a damage steroid (AD and arpen) and his AS steroid isn't 100% reliable 4° regen, to be able to get low then stay there to use his passive
- Q takes care of 2° if you can land it and abuse the pickup mechanic. Ghost's arguably better than Flash, and synergizes well with ult. Randuin's, Mallet sound like good items. - PD gives him both AS and MS, which may solve a lot of his initiating (not needing to wait to attack fast, catch-up to people faster) - brutalizer synergizes well with ult and E/Q-spam early on, GB's active may be great at engaging later on, but it looks like there are better choices on him late. - Wriggles > staying low in terms of clear speed + safety. Also, dragon/buffs control. - Mallet or warmog solve 1°. I don't like warmog because I feel like there's a huge power lull if I rush it, and I won't have it stacked if I buy it as 3rd big item, but it's just a nobrainer. Also, atma's. - FoN solves 4°, while giving him MRes against Kog's W, MBR, Poppy's stupid on-next-attack thing and generally everything that messes up with you sustain by dealing bursts instead of steady dps.
So, wriggles/mercs/randuin's or atma's/warmog's/FoN and the last item could be something like Mallet, GB or PD. Start vamp scepter, boots+3 if early ganks might be needed (but you shouldn't pick Olaf in those cases), rush wriggles, then warmog's, then either atma's or some damage item.
wolves->blue->full clear, QWQE / R > Q > E > W AS reds (you'll stay high since wriggles), armor yellows (or hp5/scaling hp?), scaling MRes blues, MS quints Ghost/Smite
In ganks, don't spam E if you can avoid it, but consider that it cancels your auto's animation. Concentrate on hitting Q in such a way that you'll pick it up while chasing, rinse-and-repeat; In teamfights, don't pop your ult immediatly if you can avoid it. Let them do some damage to you, then pop ult/W to help maintain yourself at that low-ish HP% so make full use of your passive and steroid.
Am I doing it right?
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United States47024 Posts
On February 13 2012 02:06 Alaric wrote: TL;DR: I know he isn't especially good because of his clearing time, no hard-cc ganks and need for farm (hell, one of my main junglers is Trundle), he may just suit my tastes and I'm wondering what to build on him (and in which order). Olaf's clearing time is actually disgustingly fast, because spamming Undertow does WAY more damage most other AoE jungling options (e.g. Udyr and Shyvana).
The problem is that it makes him heavily reliant on Blue to maintain that clearing speed, but any team-comp picking Olaf should be picking with a Blue-hogging jungler in mind.
On February 13 2012 02:06 Alaric wrote: wolves->blue->full clear, QWQE / R > Q > E > W AS reds (you'll stay high since wriggles), armor yellows (or hp5/scaling hp?), scaling MRes blues, MS quints Ghost/Smite AS reds aren't necessary because you get natural AS from your passive and the vast majority of your jungling damage is from Undertow, not your autoattacks. Armor Pen is better. Armor Pen or AD have traditionally been the choice for quints as well, but MS is probably fine too.
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On February 13 2012 02:06 Alaric wrote:+ Show Spoiler +So, Olaf. Just bought him, played 2 games, and I'll probably run him in the jungle as top would probably require more experience, esp. with match-ups (and it's easier to grab jungle than solotop in normals to learn).
TL;DR: I know he isn't especially good because of his clearing time, no hard-cc ganks and need for farm (hell, one of my main junglers is Trundle), he may just suit my tastes and I'm wondering what to build on him (and in which order).
From first impressions and his spells descriptions, looks like he needs: 1° HP to go with his W, ability to spam E, and bruiser status 2° some way to stick to people (be it ms buff/debuff or something else) because he has no gapcloser 3° attack speed, as he already has a damage steroid (AD and arpen) and his AS steroid isn't 100% reliable 4° regen, to be able to get low then stay there to use his passive
- Q takes care of 2° if you can land it and abuse the pickup mechanic. Ghost's arguably better than Flash, and synergizes well with ult. Randuin's, Mallet sound like good items. - PD gives him both AS and MS, which may solve a lot of his initiating (not needing to wait to attack fast, catch-up to people faster) - brutalizer synergizes well with ult and E/Q-spam early on, GB's active may be great at engaging later on, but it looks like there are better choices on him late. - Wriggles > staying low in terms of clear speed + safety. Also, dragon/buffs control. - Mallet or warmog solve 1°. I don't like warmog because I feel like there's a huge power lull if I rush it, and I won't have it stacked if I buy it as 3rd big item, but it's just a nobrainer. Also, atma's. - FoN solves 4°, while giving him MRes against Kog's W, MBR, Poppy's stupid on-next-attack thing and generally everything that messes up with you sustain by dealing bursts instead of steady dps.
So, wriggles/mercs/randuin's or atma's/warmog's/FoN and the last item could be something like Mallet, GB or PD. Start vamp scepter, boots+3 if early ganks might be needed (but you shouldn't pick Olaf in those cases), rush wriggles, then warmog's, then either atma's or some damage item.
wolves->blue->full clear, QWQE / R > Q > E > W AS reds (you'll stay high since wriggles), armor yellows (or hp5/scaling hp?), scaling MRes blues, MS quints Ghost/Smite
In ganks, don't spam E if you can avoid it, but consider that it cancels your auto's animation. Concentrate on hitting Q in such a way that you'll pick it up while chasing, rinse-and-repeat; In teamfights, don't pop your ult immediatly if you can avoid it. Let them do some damage to you, then pop ult/W to help maintain yourself at that low-ish HP% so make full use of your passive and steroid.
Am I doing it right?
I personally think he is better top simply because ganks are fairly weak and he needs a lot of farm. His E spam hurts a whole lot too. Olaf top gets countered by champs with a shield, though (malph, rumble, riven) since he wastes true damage and damage to himself on a renewable shield.
Let me know what you find, though.
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From what I've read, don't you max Q first when you go top too?
Regarding quints, on my 9 runepages, I have 2 for AP, 2 for specifics match-ups (Galio&Pantheon for mid), 2 for Irelia (AS reds and armor/mres quints), rest is generic AD champs (arpen/armor/mr/armor, arpen/armor/mr/ms, and as/armor/mr/ms). I like MS quints a lot to help mobility tho.
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On February 13 2012 03:56 Alaric wrote: From what I've read, don't you max Q first when you go top too?
Regarding quints, on my 9 runepages, I have 2 for AP, 2 for specifics match-ups (Galio&Pantheon for mid), 2 for Irelia (AS reds and armor/mres quints), rest is generic AD champs (arpen/armor/mr/armor, arpen/armor/mr/ms, and as/armor/mr/ms). I like MS quints a lot to help mobility tho.
You wouldn't have enough mana to keep up Q spam, and it would push lane, and it isn't a guaranteed hit if your opponent has boots. I personally can't imagine maxing q is the way to play top. Maybe if you are against one of the shield champs I mentioned earlier then that is the way to go, but you wouldn't want olaf against them anyway. You pick olaf top against champs who have to get close for harass/csing. he is really strong against irelia, nasus, tryndamere, poppy, etc.
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On February 13 2012 06:21 petered wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:56 Alaric wrote: From what I've read, don't you max Q first when you go top too?
Regarding quints, on my 9 runepages, I have 2 for AP, 2 for specifics match-ups (Galio&Pantheon for mid), 2 for Irelia (AS reds and armor/mres quints), rest is generic AD champs (arpen/armor/mr/armor, arpen/armor/mr/ms, and as/armor/mr/ms). I like MS quints a lot to help mobility tho. You wouldn't have enough mana to keep up Q spam, and it would push lane, and it isn't a guaranteed hit if your opponent has boots. I personally can't imagine maxing q is the way to play top. Maybe if you are against one of the shield champs I mentioned earlier then that is the way to go, but you wouldn't want olaf against them anyway. You pick olaf top against champs who have to get close for harass/csing. he is really strong against irelia, nasus, tryndamere, poppy, etc.
I'm thinking Q max is good only if you want to win with aid from your jungler. Olaf wins against most tops just by Eing with W up, and then just walking away. With proper runing, it's extremely difficult for the other guy to trade against it if you just walk away after giving them a bunch of true damage to the face.
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IMO, maxing E is mandatory because this is how Olaf wins the lane: by spamming E whenever it's off cooldown. In addition, 340 true damage has the most impact early in the game when squishies get obliterated in small skirmishes.
Combined with HP / 5 Quints, Cloth 5 Pots, vicious strikes and Wriggle's as first item after boots 1, feel free to strike your opponent with true damage lightnings as you please.
As posters before me mentioned, don't pick Olaf vs. heroes that can handle his E.
Regarding jungle Olaf:
Although he isn't a top tier jungler, he still fits certain team comps. Olaf brings one thing when ganking: lethal damage. If the lane he ganks has CC (Twisted Fate mid so gud with Olaf!), even the slightest overextending can cost your opponent his / her life.
Olaf from the jungle is especially good vs squishy carries that heavily rely on kiting. Lategame, where these really shine and kite like madmen, his R prevents your team from autlosing to 5/6 item Ashe / Kog'maw / Anivia.
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I max Q. Maxing E works really well vs idiots but I would like to think I'd win lane vs an idiot anyway.
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Well I just had a game where their botlane was Sivir + support Nidalee, even with ult I don't think I reached them more than once in teamfights. I should have bought mallet since in their case they outrun you if you can't perma-Q them, I guess (had 450 MS, still not enough).
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How to lane olaf vs wukong? I got thoroughly owned by a monkey yesterday, and he'd opened regrowth QQ. I felt I couldn't trade with him at all since after he burst me with EQ, I couldn't afford to hit him back due to the armor shred on Q.
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holy fuck olaf is so fucking retarded top LOL its probably just me but he counters literally all my champs and when i play him i never lose lane because hes fucking gay as hell. the only person i really see him having a hard time against are like ryze and yorick or something, because even against vlad you just go up and rape them
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Do note that most people back off when they eat your E, instead of standing up and fighting, since they're afraid of your damage while they should hit you during its cd.
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Am I supposed to win the lane vs Irelia? Got rolfstomped so hard last game, it made me think that the Irelia's I beat in the past were scrubs It must have been bad Irelia's...
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Press E and click on irelia repeat.
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On March 12 2012 10:20 xiaoW wrote: Am I supposed to win the lane vs Irelia? Got rolfstomped so hard last game, it made me think that the Irelia's I beat in the past were scrubs It must have been bad Irelia's...
From my own experience and in general you should win the lane with Olaf vs. Irelia. You might not necessarily kill her that easy if she plays carefully and uses brushes + Q for safe farm, but you should then outfarm her eventually.
Since standard Irelia builds tend to have low HP until midgame (only early Phage offers some health), your E (that you're gonna max ) will still hurt her at lvl 10ish. Once you get your first item (Wriggle's Latern) you can stand up to her and fight her during laning even if she uses her W.
However, it's not an autowin like vs. Nasus for example and the matchup depends on a good part of player skill, but since the IP price reduction to 4800 IP for Irelia I have seen so many fail wannabe pro Irelias that you shouldn't think too much about this one game.
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On March 12 2012 10:20 xiaoW wrote: Am I supposed to win the lane vs Irelia? Got rolfstomped so hard last game, it made me think that the Irelia's I beat in the past were scrubs It must have been bad Irelia's...
There is a dyrus guide on solo mid with a video of his olaf against a high elo irelia player (hydralover). Pretty good way to learn the matchup. In my experience it should be an easy win for olaf.
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whenever i run into hydralover in ranked some of the people on my teams like qq about how bad he is whenever he's playing irelia b4 game starts :o
olaf should max E top because even if your opponents aren't "retarded" they cannot autoattack for lasthits unless they are ranged and have a way to stop your aggression (if you land an axe in the middle of the lane you can usually outdamage them as neither axes or E draw creep aggro and are very high damage)
as mentioned i can see olaf having trouble with ryze, especially post tear
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I run Olaf with Movespeed quints. Attack speed reds. Armor yellows. and MR blues.
I like to run 1/21/8 because i like the bonus movement/mana from utility. (more q spam and faster.) (and i run ignite/ghost so i want the mastery for ignite bonus)
I think movespeed/attackspeed is a must because it lets you build straight into whatever items you wanted without getting a Zeal or some other attack speed modifier in items. (but in team fights u NEED to be able to burst down one of them at least when u ult = u need some attack speed= more hits while ur W and R and are up).
With skipping any attack speed items and sticking to tier 1 boots for a bit longer u an rush straight to more tankier items that will let u spam E more often, at less risk to urself. Also when I dont have Mastery points in the offense tree i lose the +4% attack speed, so i get that in my runes so i can get utility
I also like to get 2 lvls of q. one of w. then I max e and get points in my ult whenever possible. Olaf's E will make you an absolute TERROR the earlier u max it out. And as solo top, with level advantage over the other team most often, your E becomes quite a force to be reckoned with and feared esepecially by the Caster, support, or Ad carry all of whom will have significantly low hp when you max this skill.
Also i think Olaf stomps irelia in lane. She is mostly all sustain in lower levels and her sustain comes from hitting creeps. When she comes in for a CS use your Q and E and she will NEVER out-trade u damage wise in melee range.
And Olaf snowballs SO HARD (into the midgame at least). Once you get the advantage over her its an easy lane.
Whenever i get Olaf top I level Q, W, E, Q, E, R, ... max E then max Q. getting points in R whenever possible.
Also hitting W before you Q will add a lot of bonus damage to ur Axe throw so make sure you hit it before you go to trade blows with whoever is laning against you. And with E you should never lose a quick damage exchange whenever they come in to last hit against you.
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How are people building Olaf now that Riot introduced the new item "Maw of Malmortis" since it seems to perfectly snyergize with Olaf's passive?
Wriggles > Boots 2 > Warmogs > MoM > Atmas > Randuins
I'm new to Olaf but this seems to be most effective from what I can tell and its flexible because against AD you can get chain vest sooner (atmas) or against AP get hexdrinker (MoM). Actually any of those last four items can be built in any order depending on your playstyle but since I max E first I want the health from warmogs and since E doesn't scale I'm not losing out on any dps while rushing warmogs
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Instead of Randuins, Frozen Mallet would be good too.
I tried out WW Yamatocannon's dps Olaf build a few times, where I maxed Q. Was hilarious. Dbladex2+Brut+Hex+phage into whatever you want after.
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Randuins has a better slow proc late game for a final item imo. And the numbers on mallet vs warmogs are very close but extra hp i like better with his passive.
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Who beats olaf top? I've been trashing everyone so far by being super aggressive and maxing E first.
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On March 28 2012 04:20 Elite00fm wrote: Who beats olaf top? I've been trashing everyone so far by being super aggressive and maxing E first.
Characters with a shield or good range should be just fine. Someone like Udyr/Sion would basically be unscathed by Olaf. Mundo would also be fine due to his slowing and his massive heal and just the fact that he builds health, which counters true damage anyway. Probably Mordekaiser would be very strong as well.
I imagine Vladimir or Swain would be particularly good against him due to their huge sustain. Warwick as well. Cassiopeia for her insane range.
Definitely I agree that Olaf is a ridiculously good counter to the normal top lane "tank" characters and a strong laner overall. I think it's difficult to truly "counter" him because gets a huge amount of sustain with a wriggles and his W. And lifesteal works well with his passive. <3 Olaf.
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On March 28 2012 04:20 Elite00fm wrote: Who beats olaf top? I've been trashing everyone so far by being super aggressive and maxing E first. Me too, I actually almost never get W in lane, because i really like the stronger Q. Olaf is really strong, at least in my low elo
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How do you guys go vs WW? Just played and felt like there was nothing I could do vs him : /
I guess something like Doran shield with 9/21 and flat MR runes works well?
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On March 28 2012 04:34 Therapist. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 04:20 Elite00fm wrote: Who beats olaf top? I've been trashing everyone so far by being super aggressive and maxing E first. Characters with a shield or good range should be just fine. Someone like Udyr/Sion would basically be unscathed by Olaf. Mundo would also be fine due to his slowing and his massive heal and just the fact that he builds health, which counters true damage anyway. Probably Mordekaiser would be very strong as well. I imagine Vladimir or Swain would be particularly good against him due to their huge sustain. Warwick as well. Cassiopeia for her insane range. Definitely I agree that Olaf is a ridiculously good counter to the normal top lane "tank" characters and a strong laner overall. I think it's difficult to truly "counter" him because gets a huge amount of sustain with a wriggles and his W. And lifesteal works well with his passive. <3 Olaf.
That is a myth, i once saw hsgg underestimate olaf as udyr and get completly trashed 5-0 in lane.
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On March 31 2012 20:31 daSilvaz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 04:34 Therapist. wrote:On March 28 2012 04:20 Elite00fm wrote: Who beats olaf top? I've been trashing everyone so far by being super aggressive and maxing E first. Characters with a shield or good range should be just fine. Someone like Udyr/Sion would basically be unscathed by Olaf. Mundo would also be fine due to his slowing and his massive heal and just the fact that he builds health, which counters true damage anyway. Probably Mordekaiser would be very strong as well. I imagine Vladimir or Swain would be particularly good against him due to their huge sustain. Warwick as well. Cassiopeia for her insane range. Definitely I agree that Olaf is a ridiculously good counter to the normal top lane "tank" characters and a strong laner overall. I think it's difficult to truly "counter" him because gets a huge amount of sustain with a wriggles and his W. And lifesteal works well with his passive. <3 Olaf. That is a myth, i once saw hsgg underestimate olaf as udyr and get completly trashed 5-0 in lane. Haven't seen an Olaf lose to udyr, unless you got camped really hard. Olaf just retardedly strong atm.
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Does anyone know who is able to beat Olaf in lane? I haven't played against him yet, but I play him myself and I know hes retardedly strong. I heard Kennen, but problem is that my Kennen sucks
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On April 03 2012 22:56 GoSuChicken wrote:Does anyone know who is able to beat Olaf in lane? I haven't played against him yet, but I play him myself and I know hes retardedly strong. I heard Kennen, but problem is that my Kennen sucks
Olaf can snowball pretty hard against kennen if you just E and get MR. Depends on the kennen more then yourself tbh. Theres not really alot that beats Olaf top.
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Swain. Maybe Ryze? I don't know if his W lasts long enough early on, esp. since you need to stand still to cast, he could axe you easily. Rumble perhaps, if he can harass Olaf w/o standing to near. Basically, anything ranged that can kite him.
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Mundo can do fairly well vs olaf, you just need to lasthit with cleaver for a pretty long time; untill you can just shrug off his E dmg through sheer health.
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Mundo gets outfarmed tho toplane by Olaf. A good Olaf will not let you get near before lvl6 without punishing you bad, and theres not much you can do to the Olafplayer there. He will snowball too hard. Swain can work , but hes alot more squishy then you might think. I max Q vs pretty much all ranged up top, if they stand to lasthit its an axe to the face and followup because of the slow.
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How is Olaf power curve? It seems that everywhere i read about that super lategame, but i've never seen it. Olafs in my games seem to be early game beasts, who fall off later, is this just them playing Olaf badly, or is that just how Olaf works?
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While it's not an easy matchup, Riven can do fine against Olaf if you go E first, start cloth5, and pick your engages carefully. Olaf will oom before Riven is out of pots, after which she will bully you out of lane until you go buy.
Not many champs give Olaf a hard time though, and if you do get an early leg up on Riven then she's utterly screwed.
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I too would like to hear more specifics about olaf's lategame, as I always feel strongest in the mid-game, and that can still go wrong e.g. If I'm low on mr and the ap carry can burst me low when I try to initiate in the first or second dragon fights. I also am curious what player's run that makes them feel safer against ganks, feels like every gank can make me blow ghost or flash depending on what I'm running and I still might not get away. I recognize a lot of this as simple bad play on my part (only 1200-ish Elo) but advice would be appreciated.
Are people waiting to try to dominate the lane until level 5-6? I feel like I can get harrassed low if I let pushers push into me and then I can take damage under tower even if I'm trying to cs, making me vulnerable to double tower dives since it's hard to damage without using e but that kills you faster when you need to last longer and let the tower kill one of your enemies. I just don't get olaf top like I understand ap/ad, and I'm not sure what I'm missing.
Still a strong team asset if you don't get railed into a way behind state.
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On April 04 2012 05:06 UltimateFire wrote: I too would like to hear more specifics about olaf's lategame, as I always feel strongest in the mid-game, and that can still go wrong e.g. If I'm low on mr and the ap carry can burst me low when I try to initiate in the first or second dragon fights. I also am curious what player's run that makes them feel safer against ganks, feels like every gank can make me blow ghost or flash depending on what I'm running and I still might not get away. I recognize a lot of this as simple bad play on my part (only 1200-ish Elo) but advice would be appreciated.
Are people waiting to try to dominate the lane until level 5-6? I feel like I can get harrassed low if I let pushers push into me and then I can take damage under tower even if I'm trying to cs, making me vulnerable to double tower dives since it's hard to damage without using e but that kills you faster when you need to last longer and let the tower kill one of your enemies. I just don't get olaf top like I understand ap/ad, and I'm not sure what I'm missing.
Still a strong team asset if you don't get railed into a way behind state.
Olaf's endgame is ridiculous because of his ult, and absurd auto's with 45+ passive arpen + true damage. MoM, boots of choice(zerks, mercs and tabi all work), Atmas, Trinity warmogs, BT is my chosen 6 item build, although ghostbade works as well instead of trinity if you replace warmogs with frozen mallet. Ult -> run up to squishies, throw an axe and proceed to 3 shot them.
What do you mean by pushers though. When you say they can damage you under tower I'd assume it's like vlad or kennen. Kennen is pretty stupid but vlad you can run flash/ghost ignite, open boots+4 with MR page QEQ, and then allin him the moment you hit an axe. In general though against anybody who can harass/lasthit from range you'll want to max axe first because it's stronger for both jungler ganks and for allining them.
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I run wriggles-randuin's-warmog-atmas--MoM-boots (ususally mercs) when i can get to that point. Only champ that managed to actually hurt me real bad after atmogs was a fed Vayne, MoM or even hexdrinker combined with your ult usually allow you to tank bursts fairly well. I'm by no means a good Olaf by now, but something I've come to considered as crucial since I started playing him is the timing on your W during teamfights. I usually won't pop the ult until I'm focused or eat a stun (the buff it received to cleanse on top of granting immunity occurred before I started playing him), but I used to cast W right as I entered the fight, to do more damage and survive the early bursts even better. My problem was that I wouldn't be able to hit that much because of high HP (for the passive), casting other spells (Q anim kinda slow), and enemy champs having mobility spells to blow and make me waste time. Then, once the initial dust set off, sustained dps would be able to outdamage my wriggle's sustain and kill me. So now I let myself get lower health, and don't use W at the start unless I have blue buff or something. Then as soon as I'm low health and comfortably sat on the AD carry (or getting sat on by some bruiser) I pop W to let my sustain (and MoM when I have it) do the rest.
I know those are bad habits I got from Irelia, on who I'd activate Hiten Style before diving. Since Olaf has no gap closer I wasted a good second of W to cover Bladesurge's range on foot.
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On April 04 2012 05:32 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 05:06 UltimateFire wrote: I too would like to hear more specifics about olaf's lategame, as I always feel strongest in the mid-game, and that can still go wrong e.g. If I'm low on mr and the ap carry can burst me low when I try to initiate in the first or second dragon fights. I also am curious what player's run that makes them feel safer against ganks, feels like every gank can make me blow ghost or flash depending on what I'm running and I still might not get away. I recognize a lot of this as simple bad play on my part (only 1200-ish Elo) but advice would be appreciated.
Are people waiting to try to dominate the lane until level 5-6? I feel like I can get harrassed low if I let pushers push into me and then I can take damage under tower even if I'm trying to cs, making me vulnerable to double tower dives since it's hard to damage without using e but that kills you faster when you need to last longer and let the tower kill one of your enemies. I just don't get olaf top like I understand ap/ad, and I'm not sure what I'm missing.
Still a strong team asset if you don't get railed into a way behind state. Olaf's endgame is ridiculous because of his ult, and absurd auto's with 45+ passive arpen + true damage. MoM, boots of choice(zerks, mercs and tabi all work), Atmas, Trinity warmogs, BT is my chosen 6 item build, although ghostbade works as well instead of trinity if you replace warmogs with frozen mallet. Ult -> run up to squishies, throw an axe and proceed to 3 shot them. What do you mean by pushers though. When you say they can damage you under tower I'd assume it's like vlad or kennen. Kennen is pretty stupid but vlad you can run flash/ghost ignite, open boots+4 with MR page QEQ, and then allin him the moment you hit an axe. In general though against anybody who can harass/lasthit from range you'll want to max axe first because it's stronger for both jungler ganks and for allining them.
Olaf's endgame never feels as strong to me because there aren't slower, smaller fights where olaf can dominate people consecutively. Olaf can't peel for his ap or ad, and the enemy ad or ap's health pool has been increasing and e never gets better after 9 or 13, unless you get cdr, which is hard to itemize on olaf. In the 5v5 teamfighting part he can just get bursted down fast it feels. But maybe I haven't been trying hexblade into MoM enough yet, one of the itemizations holes I always feel is after atmog's or fratma's, is how to get good mr. That might help.
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is it bad to get warmogs and mallet on olaf?
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On April 09 2012 19:39 courtpanda wrote: is it bad to get warmogs and mallet on olaf? I like doing it if my team is really squishy (something like Kennen/Ahri in the solo lanes).
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I do it a lot in soloQ if I can afford it because the more resiliance, the more you can carry/buy your team time to be useful. Then I throw in an atma's of course. I usually get either mallet or randuin's on top of an atma's, depending on the need for a permaslow.
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On April 09 2012 19:39 courtpanda wrote: is it bad to get warmogs and mallet on olaf?
I feel like warmogs is an over kill though I see mallet as a necessity on him. I actually rush mallet first and then go from there.
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What about getting CDR on Olaf for the E spam. Something like Wriggles, CD boots, Zeke's Herald will give 30% plus defensive masteries bring him to 38.1% which grants you a 2.5 sec TRUE damage nuke. As long as the enemy team doesn't all focus you the life steal from wriggles and zeke's is more than enough to heal the damage while you dismantle them. I've had mixed games with this start but i've seen players much better than myself tear shit up doing this.
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On April 24 2012 08:29 Ghost-z wrote: What about getting CDR on Olaf for the E spam. Something like Wriggles, CD boots, Zeke's Herald will give 30% plus defensive masteries bring him to 38.1% which grants you a 2.5 sec TRUE damage nuke. As long as the enemy team doesn't all focus you the life steal from wriggles and zeke's is more than enough to heal the damage while you dismantle them. I've had mixed games with this start but i've seen players much better than myself tear shit up doing this.
Ghostblade + shurelyas. Cdr + triple speed boost (ghost) too strong.
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Zeke's isn't bad but you really should be getting Frozen Heart+Randuin's on Olaf. Olaf's job is to dive the enemy carries; he can't peel for shit. FH and Randuin's lets him dive AD carries really well since the auras reduce their dps by a lot. He also gets 25% cdr from those two items and with 21 in defense you get 33% cdr. Add on Shurelias, Zeke's, and/or Ghostblade and you have capped cdr with good survivability. IMO, a good 6 item olaf build would look like boots, FH, Randuins, FMallet, big MR item, probably FoN, final item situational (Shurelia's for better anti-kite/chasing, Zeke's if your team is heavy on AD and no one else is getting it, MoM for more damage/MR, Ghostblade if you were snowballing).
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Looking deeper into cooldown reduction on Olaf I've settled on this: Mercury Treads > Frozen Heart > Zekes > Randuins > Maw of Malmortis
Prioritizing max %CD and armor such that damage doesn't fall off much provided you max and spam E. Olaf has enough sustain with Zekes and W to regain the health lost during the E spam plus the aura helps your team. Damage may begin to fall off late game if players stack Health items so building the MoM provides extra damage, much needed 36MR (and 400 MR shield) and good synergy with Olafs passive. Against heavy magic damage comps getting the Hexdrinker before Randuins will help.
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You don't stack that much health and your only source of damage (out of the bonus HP for W) is the MoM... I don't know, whenever you get low and it's risky to use E, you're significantly weaker than a "standard" HP/AD Olaf in those situations where you activate W to sustain yourself while dealing enough damage to 1v3 people.
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Why doesn't anyone talk about Triforce on Olaf? My current build is double / triple Dorans Phage or Doran's / Wriggle's / Phage into Atma's into Triforce and just powercurve-wise it seems a lot stronger than the usual Atmog's Olaf. Axe+Phage procc is enough not to get Fmallet and if you finish up with MoM and Randuin's, you're a frickin beast.
Also: does anyone else think Olaf's just a tad too strong at the moment? He snowballs so damn well once he has an advantage.
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You're saying triforce seems stronger than warmogs? Warmogs is a defenisve item. It you decide that the triforce is better then sure. However olaf is a big threat anyway because of his ult and he tends to get focused.
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When do you guys pop W in a teamfight? I normally just use it as soon as I've sustained some damage or right away in a lopsided fight where I'm at the advantage for the bonus damage. Do you ever hold off until you're lower like <50% or something? I don't know if it synergizes that well with the lifesteal and attack speed but didn't want to be missing out on some knowledge
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Olaf is one of my favorite champions and pretty much my only one I play top in ranked.
Currently I have 2 different builds I've been using, one vs double AP (like vlad/kennen top) and one vs ad.
Vs double ap I go boots4 -> 1 or 2 null magic (depending upon how scary top is) -> hexdrinker -> cdr boots -> spirit visage (if 2 null) -> zekes -> defensive items and finishing MoM, like randuins or warmogs or fmallet, depending on the game.
Hexdrinker is extremely strong for winning your lane, and vs those tops I level axe first so the CDR drastically improves my damage. (with 25%-30% cdr axe pretty much has no cooldown).
Zekes is just an amazing item for Olaf, giving him health, cdr, life steal and attack speed, pretty much every stat he wants, as well as giving an amazing aura to your team.
Vs ad top I usually go Cloth 5 or boots 4, depending on their jungler, -> t1 boots + wriggles -> cdr boots or armor boots -> hog -> zekes or randuins -> the other.
This build I don't like quite as much as my one vs double ap, but it works decently.
Note: If your vs ad top and are purple side, ALWAYS go cloth 5 and take double golems with q first. It takes 2 hp pots and leaves you with like 150 mana, however IF they are stupid and try to fight you as you hit two you will 99% of the time get a really easy first blood. You can do the same with wolves on blue if your jungler is starting red.
@mordek In teamfights I usually pop w as I ult, so that I have full up time of it while I'm doing damage.
Olaf is just such a beast early and mid game I almost feel bad abusing him.
Edit: All of this is from 50+ games with Olaf at 1800+ elo.
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On April 24 2012 12:42 Ryuu314 wrote: Zeke's isn't bad but you really should be getting Frozen Heart+Randuin's on Olaf. Olaf's job is to dive the enemy carries; he can't peel for shit. FH and Randuin's lets him dive AD carries really well since the auras reduce their dps by a lot. He also gets 25% cdr from those two items and with 21 in defense you get 33% cdr. Add on Shurelias, Zeke's, and/or Ghostblade and you have capped cdr with good survivability. IMO, a good 6 item olaf build would look like boots, FH, Randuins, FMallet, big MR item, probably FoN, final item situational (Shurelia's for better anti-kite/chasing, Zeke's if your team is heavy on AD and no one else is getting it, MoM for more damage/MR, Ghostblade if you were snowballing).
if you can get to people you can get people off of people. the exact same tool kit allows diving carries as protecting your own.
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On May 01 2012 05:21 mordek wrote:When do you guys pop W in a teamfight? I normally just use it as soon as I've sustained some damage or right away in a lopsided fight where I'm at the advantage for the bonus damage. Do you ever hold off until you're lower like <50% or something? I don't know if it synergizes that well with the lifesteal and attack speed but didn't want to be missing out on some knowledge
Depends on the cdr on my build (which is pretty much randuin's and blue buff, I'm not a fan of SV, cdr boots or anything of that style). If I feel like I have enough, I pop it immediatly as the fight starts, so it'll come off cd again before I die, else I wait until I'm starting to get low, then I use it. The synergy is really huge, when you get to 1.6 or 1.7 AS, and your opponent is hoping to finish you, esp. if you have hexdrinker/MoM and you're currently fighting a caster.
I like the fact that if I'm farmed enough, unless the opposing carry is really fed or full of escapes timing my ult and W right allows me to dive him w/o problems, and if he's forced to react to me he'll generally zone himself out of the fight by trying to flee (esp. during my ult). Even then some good Qs + phage (be it mallet or triforce later) prevents a successful flight, and you can stick to them and spam Q on top of E and AAs as soon as you're close enough to throw->pickup as part of the kiting. Sometimes other champs near the ad carry will flee too to avoid me switching targets, and I've managed to 1v2 the carry+support (esp. if it's a cc support like Taric or Alistar thanks to the ult) or even carry + AP through MoM thanks to them being generally squishy and E allowing to finish them off before they can do the same to you.
I usually go for wriggles -> HoG -> boots2 -> phage/hexdrinker/chainvest depending on the opponent/who's fed/the state of the game. Wriggles/mercs/Randuin's if pretty much core, with MoM being aimed at lategame, the two other slots varying between phage item/warmogs/atmas. I found myself building atmas less and less tho, as randuin's already gives some nice armor and warmogs covering the damage part just fine whenever I press W.
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On May 01 2012 05:43 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 12:42 Ryuu314 wrote: Zeke's isn't bad but you really should be getting Frozen Heart+Randuin's on Olaf. Olaf's job is to dive the enemy carries; he can't peel for shit. FH and Randuin's lets him dive AD carries really well since the auras reduce their dps by a lot. He also gets 25% cdr from those two items and with 21 in defense you get 33% cdr. Add on Shurelias, Zeke's, and/or Ghostblade and you have capped cdr with good survivability. IMO, a good 6 item olaf build would look like boots, FH, Randuins, FMallet, big MR item, probably FoN, final item situational (Shurelia's for better anti-kite/chasing, Zeke's if your team is heavy on AD and no one else is getting it, MoM for more damage/MR, Ghostblade if you were snowballing). if you can get to people you can get people off of people. the exact same tool kit allows diving carries as protecting your own. not really. getting to people is as simple as popping ghost and ult and running at them, both of which do nothing to peel people.
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If you kill stuff faster than the opposing bruiser (and Olaf kill squishies fast) then they'll usually try to deal with you first. Turns out they can't cc you, and if they focus you your carry wails on them. Life is hard, man. Then again, if you're too squishy or not farmed enough, you'll just die too fast doing this.
Once steroids, ults and stuff are down I find Olaf's passive in combination with any lifesteal item really good to clean-up in case both you and their bruiser kill their respective target carries, too. But I often win top when playing Olaf so unless the bruiser is their jungler it's kinda biaised to say that.
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CDR is good on olaf but you don't really want ghostblade or things like that. I've seen a lot of the koreans building him double gp5 into shurelyia/frozen heart/mallet/atma/omen. replace omen with FoN or maw if they have more ap damage. atma is not really that necessary either - its basically a luxury item on him.
Remember that your only real job in teamfights is to zerg their ap/ad carries. Its kinda like irrelia.. you don't really need AD because the true damage from E spam is enough to kill squishies. Just need to be tanky.
Also I see a lot of people get AS boots on him which is just silly. Your ult isnt up 100% in teamfights.. get merc treads or if not needed get ninja tabi.
main point of the build is to be super tanky + max CDR. then with your ult/ghost/shurelyia into E spam you can pretty much kill their AP/AD carries or at least make them focus you first. it works really well - i haven't played olaf since the patch though so the CD nerf on E might make this a little less amazing
most important thing on olaf though is picking your spots. you have to know when to pop your CDs and go and when not to... you see a lot of bad olafs just charge in 1v5. no matter how fed you are no one can tank 5 people focusing them in the late game :/
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Just had my first game as Olaf (and like, 6th game jungling ever). Went 4-4-8, next game 6-1-8. The jungle just clears sooo quickly, level 3 ganks are easy easy with him. I've fallen in love. I've been getting vampiric septer instead of health pots, is just getting the pots more efficient?
I've gotta stop playing this game so much. T_T
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I wouldn't know, I would just clear all day (8 minutes wriggles, like T_D says ) as long as I have blue, rather than gank at level 3 or even 4, unless it's a free kill. Vamp scepter is fine, allows you to just jungle without backing ever as long as you have blue buff. Boots+3 if you want to gank earlier and have trouble reaching your targets, maybe cloth+5 if you're afraid of being heavily counterjungled?
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On May 09 2012 17:11 Alaric wrote:I wouldn't know, I would just clear all day (8 minutes wriggles, like T_D says ) as long as I have blue, rather than gank at level 3 or even 4, unless it's a free kill. Vamp scepter is fine, allows you to just jungle without backing ever as long as you have blue buff. Boots+3 if you want to gank earlier and have trouble reaching your targets, maybe cloth+5 if you're afraid of being heavily counterjungled?
Personally I like the boots opening far more than the vamp opening. It let's olaf have the option of going for easy ganks while still letting him power jungle until blue runs out because W+Q keeps you high enough if you got a good leash to clear a lot. IMO cloth 5 is reserved for facing extremely strong duelist junglers who are running smite exhaust.
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On May 09 2012 20:55 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2012 17:11 Alaric wrote:I wouldn't know, I would just clear all day (8 minutes wriggles, like T_D says ) as long as I have blue, rather than gank at level 3 or even 4, unless it's a free kill. Vamp scepter is fine, allows you to just jungle without backing ever as long as you have blue buff. Boots+3 if you want to gank earlier and have trouble reaching your targets, maybe cloth+5 if you're afraid of being heavily counterjungled? Personally I like the boots opening far more than the vamp opening. It let's olaf have the option of going for easy ganks while still letting him power jungle until blue runs out because W+Q keeps you high enough if you got a good leash to clear a lot. IMO cloth 5 is reserved for facing extremely strong duelist junglers who are running smite exhaust. imo long sword is good for balance - it makes ganks stronger with its Q synergy, and clears jungle fast as well. Easy to get wriggles+boots during first port with this setup.
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I recently picked up Olaf since I was sitting on IP, and am rather enjoying him. He's a very strong lane, an interesting (albeit limited) jungle, but I'm wondering: Once we move past laning, what should my job be? Without CC, he's not a team fighting monster like a Galio or Naut, and he's only moderately naturally tanky (limited to his ult being up and being able to hit things for W).
Should I be focusing more on "bruiser" items, diving into fights, charging for carries? Should I get tank stuff and peel/eat damage? These seem to be his only viable roles, but I must admit it's rather scary to run headlong in when you're not a full on tank like some champs I play.
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On June 07 2012 15:25 Requizen wrote: I recently picked up Olaf since I was sitting on IP, and am rather enjoying him. He's a very strong lane, an interesting (albeit limited) jungle, but I'm wondering: Once we move past laning, what should my job be? Without CC, he's not a team fighting monster like a Galio or Naut, and he's only moderately naturally tanky (limited to his ult being up and being able to hit things for W).
Should I be focusing more on "bruiser" items, diving into fights, charging for carries? Should I get tank stuff and peel/eat damage? These seem to be his only viable roles, but I must admit it's rather scary to run headlong in when you're not a full on tank like some champs I play. Get cdr and bruiser items. Mallet, Randuins, Frozen Heart are pretty common items on him. Mostly you just pop your ult and go crazy on their carries. After a certain point, AD carries get to the point where they can melt anyone; at that stage Olaf becomes much more useless, but Olaf is really strong in the midgame when carries can't 1v1 him and still rely on their supports/bruisers to provide some peel for them.
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On June 07 2012 15:33 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:25 Requizen wrote: I recently picked up Olaf since I was sitting on IP, and am rather enjoying him. He's a very strong lane, an interesting (albeit limited) jungle, but I'm wondering: Once we move past laning, what should my job be? Without CC, he's not a team fighting monster like a Galio or Naut, and he's only moderately naturally tanky (limited to his ult being up and being able to hit things for W).
Should I be focusing more on "bruiser" items, diving into fights, charging for carries? Should I get tank stuff and peel/eat damage? These seem to be his only viable roles, but I must admit it's rather scary to run headlong in when you're not a full on tank like some champs I play. Get cdr and bruiser items. Mallet, Randuins, Frozen Heart are pretty common items on him. Mostly you just pop your ult and go crazy on their carries. After a certain point, AD carries get to the point where they can melt anyone; at that stage Olaf becomes much more useless, but Olaf is really strong in the midgame when carries can't 1v1 him and still rely on their supports/bruisers to provide some peel for them. I don't think there is a point in the game when ad carries can shut down olaf, if anything they have to kite him all day. he is beast 1v1. I agree lulu+graves can easily kill olaf, but its a different situation. Late game olaf usually goes crazy killing towers and inhibitors. He can then just pop his ult+ghost and trololo run away.
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On June 07 2012 15:44 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 07 2012 15:25 Requizen wrote: I recently picked up Olaf since I was sitting on IP, and am rather enjoying him. He's a very strong lane, an interesting (albeit limited) jungle, but I'm wondering: Once we move past laning, what should my job be? Without CC, he's not a team fighting monster like a Galio or Naut, and he's only moderately naturally tanky (limited to his ult being up and being able to hit things for W).
Should I be focusing more on "bruiser" items, diving into fights, charging for carries? Should I get tank stuff and peel/eat damage? These seem to be his only viable roles, but I must admit it's rather scary to run headlong in when you're not a full on tank like some champs I play. Get cdr and bruiser items. Mallet, Randuins, Frozen Heart are pretty common items on him. Mostly you just pop your ult and go crazy on their carries. After a certain point, AD carries get to the point where they can melt anyone; at that stage Olaf becomes much more useless, but Olaf is really strong in the midgame when carries can't 1v1 him and still rely on their supports/bruisers to provide some peel for them. I don't think there is a point in the game when ad carries can shut down olaf, if anything they have to kite him all day. he is beast 1v1. I agree lulu+graves can easily kill olaf, but its a different situation. Late game olaf usually goes crazy killing towers and inhibitors. He can then just pop his ult+ghost and trololo run away. At some point in the game, a farmed, 5-6 item AD carry with lifesteal can 1v1 anything (except maybe another AD carry but then it's dependent on picks and micro) simply because of how offensive items scale much harder than defensive items. Ofc, if the Olaf has an exhaust and you try to fight through the exhaust then yes, you may lose, but kiting through the exhaust duration isn't very hard for most AD carries if you have some form of escape.
EDIT: I didn't mean that an AD carry could "shut down" olaf as in prevent him from taking objectives or whatnot. I was more of responding to what Requizen was askin about what to do with Olaf during teamfights.
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Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. I was building him similarly to this already, so that's good.
Unfortunately, it didn't help me last game when I got crapped on by a Darius :\ Still out CSed him and dropped his tower, but it was demoralizing to say the least. Any tips against him?
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On June 07 2012 16:19 Requizen wrote: Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. I was building him similarly to this already, so that's good.
Unfortunately, it didn't help me last game when I got crapped on by a Darius :\ Still out CSed him and dropped his tower, but it was demoralizing to say the least. Any tips against him? i've never played that matchup so I don't really know. but I have been playign darius a bit lately and based on watching smash's stream I'd imagine that the matchup would be favored by Darius simply because Darius outdamages Olaf really hard for the first few levels and can snowball hard off of that.
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On June 07 2012 16:26 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 16:19 Requizen wrote: Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. I was building him similarly to this already, so that's good.
Unfortunately, it didn't help me last game when I got crapped on by a Darius :\ Still out CSed him and dropped his tower, but it was demoralizing to say the least. Any tips against him? i've never played that matchup so I don't really know. but I have been playign darius a bit lately and based on watching smash's stream I'd imagine that the matchup would be favored by Darius simply because Darius outdamages Olaf really hard for the first few levels and can snowball hard off of that. That was my thought, and I definitely committed too hard. I should have held back for the first few levels, or maybe even until 6 and just harassed with Q. Instead, he got a bit out of hand.
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Man, I can not gank as jungle Olaf to save my life. Even when I can land axes, that slow is not nearly enough to secure a kill. Bleh, having to rely on teammates is suffering.
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If the lane you are ganking doesnt have a stun of their own you might be better off maxing Q before E on Olaf just so you can get the stronger slowing effect. You can't kill what you can't catch.
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Uh... you know jungler Olaf always max Q anyway because he basically farm more with that than his aa, right?
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Bleh, maybe he's just not my style, I always feel oom using Q all the time (give away 3rd blue on).
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On June 12 2012 04:49 Alaric wrote: Uh... you know jungler Olaf always max Q anyway because he basically farm more with that than his aa, right? I disagree, Q-reliant clearing drains a LOT of mana, usually i only depend on it during my first clear, giving away 2. blue cause i can still clear very fast once i have madred's/lantern. I never max Q when jungling, unless we have 2 manaless solos. But then probably 1 of them is Vlad so i will give him a blue anyway. Just because vlad with early boost to CDR is even more annoying
On June 10 2012 13:17 Requizen wrote: Man, I can not gank as jungle Olaf to save my life. Even when I can land axes, that slow is not nearly enough to secure a kill. Bleh, having to rely on teammates is suffering. Nowadays i only pick jungle Olaf when i'm playing premade 5s and my friends grab champs with hard CC.
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When i jungle Olaf i take Q at levels 1 and 3. Skill order looks like QEQWEREEE, this way i still get E maxed by level 9 but with the 2 levels in his Q i can still clear fast enough with wriggles.
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a tip for ganking with olaf is not throwing your axe too soon If you come from river, throw the axe while they are backing up, even if you land the axe you can't pick the axe up and attack the other guy cause they are in 2 different directions if you run up to him and then throw the axe in the direction he is running you can chain axes for a more succesfull gank Of course competent players aren't going to let you simply run to them if they're not making out with your top tower, but if you can do it, definetly hold on to your axe for the most time possible
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Dunno, I like maxing Q just so I can clear really fast when I want to (if you start vamp and only farm farm farm for the whole duration of your blue buff you can get a complete wriggles as it ends, but it's not the best idea as you only have enough for wriggles, not for boots if you choose to), for example when trying to burst the drake or steal a buff while the enemy jungler is elsewhere. I'll give a try to the 2 points in Q, rest in E (it allows you to axe spam for your first clear all the same as you won't reach level 5 during the time you're using blue anyway), but I don't jungle Olaf much these days.
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hi guys, I'd like to know your opinion on my Olaf top build. I think Olaf's E is really strong and try to abuse it (max E 1st, then W), so I get items that give me health and CDR.
I usually start cloth 5 pots or boots 5 pots. After that I get: HoG (health +gp10) Philo Stone -> Shurelia's Reverie (CDR, health, mana/health regen, and an extra ghost) Mercs Glacial Shroud -> Frozen Heart (armor + CDR) Frozen Mallet
I've been asked if I'm trolling, but it actually works for me. What do U guys think?
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On June 15 2012 03:34 ekra wrote: hi guys, I'd like to know your opinion on my Olaf top build. I think Olaf's E is really strong and try to abuse it (max E 1st, then W), so I get items that give me health and CDR.
I usually start cloth 5 pots or boots 5 pots. After that I get: HoG (health +gp10) Philo Stone -> Shurelia's Reverie (CDR, health, mana/health regen, and an extra ghost) Mercs Glacial Shroud -> Frozen Heart (armor + CDR) Frozen Mallet
I've been asked if I'm trolling, but it actually works for me. What do U guys think? how to start boots 5? sounds op teach me!
but really you cant build the same shit every game. what if you're laning vs rumble? if you stick to that build and buy 0 mr you will get trashed.
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On June 07 2012 16:03 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 15:44 bokeevboke wrote:On June 07 2012 15:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 07 2012 15:25 Requizen wrote: I recently picked up Olaf since I was sitting on IP, and am rather enjoying him. He's a very strong lane, an interesting (albeit limited) jungle, but I'm wondering: Once we move past laning, what should my job be? Without CC, he's not a team fighting monster like a Galio or Naut, and he's only moderately naturally tanky (limited to his ult being up and being able to hit things for W).
Should I be focusing more on "bruiser" items, diving into fights, charging for carries? Should I get tank stuff and peel/eat damage? These seem to be his only viable roles, but I must admit it's rather scary to run headlong in when you're not a full on tank like some champs I play. Get cdr and bruiser items. Mallet, Randuins, Frozen Heart are pretty common items on him. Mostly you just pop your ult and go crazy on their carries. After a certain point, AD carries get to the point where they can melt anyone; at that stage Olaf becomes much more useless, but Olaf is really strong in the midgame when carries can't 1v1 him and still rely on their supports/bruisers to provide some peel for them. I don't think there is a point in the game when ad carries can shut down olaf, if anything they have to kite him all day. he is beast 1v1. I agree lulu+graves can easily kill olaf, but its a different situation. Late game olaf usually goes crazy killing towers and inhibitors. He can then just pop his ult+ghost and trololo run away. At some point in the game, a farmed, 5-6 item AD carry with lifesteal can 1v1 anything (except maybe another AD carry but then it's dependent on picks and micro) simply because of how offensive items scale much harder than defensive items. Ofc, if the Olaf has an exhaust and you try to fight through the exhaust then yes, you may lose, but kiting through the exhaust duration isn't very hard for most AD carries if you have some form of escape. EDIT: I didn't mean that an AD carry could "shut down" olaf as in prevent him from taking objectives or whatnot. I was more of responding to what Requizen was askin about what to do with Olaf during teamfights. This is simply not true. Bruisers have better base stats, and more powerful kits(as otherwise melee would be useless due to their huge positional disadvantage in teamfights) than ranged carries. From this premise it logically follows that bruisers beat ranged champs(as fights necessarily are in melee range due to mallets unique). And also, offensive ad items do have diminishng returns so ina duel you woulduse more of a mixed set of items just like bruisers do
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offensive AD items definitely do not have diminishing returns AD items work together in that IE is good, and PD is good, but having both is definitely worth more than the sum of the individual pieces. throw in a last whisper and you have 3 items that are not only cost-efficient by themselves, but also get exponentially better as you complete the set
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On June 15 2012 07:16 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 16:03 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 07 2012 15:44 bokeevboke wrote:On June 07 2012 15:33 Ryuu314 wrote:On June 07 2012 15:25 Requizen wrote: I recently picked up Olaf since I was sitting on IP, and am rather enjoying him. He's a very strong lane, an interesting (albeit limited) jungle, but I'm wondering: Once we move past laning, what should my job be? Without CC, he's not a team fighting monster like a Galio or Naut, and he's only moderately naturally tanky (limited to his ult being up and being able to hit things for W).
Should I be focusing more on "bruiser" items, diving into fights, charging for carries? Should I get tank stuff and peel/eat damage? These seem to be his only viable roles, but I must admit it's rather scary to run headlong in when you're not a full on tank like some champs I play. Get cdr and bruiser items. Mallet, Randuins, Frozen Heart are pretty common items on him. Mostly you just pop your ult and go crazy on their carries. After a certain point, AD carries get to the point where they can melt anyone; at that stage Olaf becomes much more useless, but Olaf is really strong in the midgame when carries can't 1v1 him and still rely on their supports/bruisers to provide some peel for them. I don't think there is a point in the game when ad carries can shut down olaf, if anything they have to kite him all day. he is beast 1v1. I agree lulu+graves can easily kill olaf, but its a different situation. Late game olaf usually goes crazy killing towers and inhibitors. He can then just pop his ult+ghost and trololo run away. At some point in the game, a farmed, 5-6 item AD carry with lifesteal can 1v1 anything (except maybe another AD carry but then it's dependent on picks and micro) simply because of how offensive items scale much harder than defensive items. Ofc, if the Olaf has an exhaust and you try to fight through the exhaust then yes, you may lose, but kiting through the exhaust duration isn't very hard for most AD carries if you have some form of escape. EDIT: I didn't mean that an AD carry could "shut down" olaf as in prevent him from taking objectives or whatnot. I was more of responding to what Requizen was askin about what to do with Olaf during teamfights. This is simply not true. Bruisers have better base stats, and more powerful kits(as otherwise melee would be useless due to their huge positional disadvantage in teamfights) than ranged carries. From this premise it logically follows that bruisers beat ranged champs(as fights necessarily are in melee range due to mallets unique). And also, offensive ad items do have diminishng returns so ina duel you woulduse more of a mixed set of items just like bruisers do Really it comes down to solely how well the AD can kite away from the bruiser and deal damage. It's not a matter of items so much as it is summoners, positioning, QSS, and the kits on each.
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On June 15 2012 08:39 gtrsrs wrote: offensive AD items definitely do not have diminishing returns AD items work together in that IE is good, and PD is good, but having both is definitely worth more than the sum of the individual pieces. throw in a last whisper and you have 3 items that are not only cost-efficient by themselves, but also get exponentially better as you complete the set They multiplicate each others bonuses. Their individual bonuses are linear. Which means the relative bonus diminishes after each item of the same type you get. Same with defensive items. Armor and life multiplicate each others bonuses. Their individual bonuses are linear. Armor/res also multiplicates life steal and shields. with AD you get as,ad,crit,pen,ls,crit dmg that multiplicate each other. wih defense you get armor,life,ls. so 3 less stats. which may mean that in a duel the weight is more on the offensive stats, but they too have the same fundamental diminishin dynamics
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On June 10 2012 13:17 Requizen wrote: Man, I can not gank as jungle Olaf to save my life. Even when I can land axes, that slow is not nearly enough to secure a kill. Bleh, having to rely on teammates is suffering.
You don't always have to kill. If you make them waste a flash or two, thats already a success. I even don't go for kill sometimes, just show them I'm present and near by. They'll be scared and won't play at their full potential.
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Hmm alright going to the expert Olaf players here at TL. How should a lane be played against fiora, because i see some forums saying that olaf should win and some saying that fiora rips apart olaf (this seemingly true for me). What should my plan be from level one pretty much.
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11589 Posts
On June 24 2012 12:54 Zabad wrote: Hmm alright going to the expert Olaf players here at TL. How should a lane be played against fiora, because i see some forums saying that olaf should win and some saying that fiora rips apart olaf (this seemingly true for me). What should my plan be from level one pretty much. Don't fight her straight up, she does too much DPS with Riposte + Burst of Speed. Save your Q for when she goes aggressive, after she uses her 2 jumps, you should e-q and disengage. Use W to outsustain her between these small trades and outpush her with Q when necessary. Rush tabi -> frozen heart for plenty of armor/mana/cdr. Go movespeed quints to help you disengage better at early levels. Start boots and you'll be guaranteed to have a movespeed advantage unless she does the exact same build, and even if she does, your slow beats her haste due to how movespeed is calculated.
If the Fiora realizes she can just farm, and does, you can deal with her diving your carry in teamfights by saving Exhaust for her, and building a slow item such as Frozen Mallet so you can peel her effectively. If you shut down her attempts at assassinating your carry, you essentially make her worthless in a teamfight because she lacks anything other than damage. After she blows her cds, it's easy enough to pick her off and engage the rest of her team in a 5v4.
EDIT: The main thing is to not let her get kills and snowball on you. She only really becomes scary if she can burst someone down in a full combo, and if she's not getting lots of gold from kills in lane, it makes it much harder for her to do that. If she plays balls to the wall aggressive, you can ask your jungler to gank for you since she'll be wasting her escapes trying to get to you.
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On June 24 2012 15:17 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 12:54 Zabad wrote: Hmm alright going to the expert Olaf players here at TL. How should a lane be played against fiora, because i see some forums saying that olaf should win and some saying that fiora rips apart olaf (this seemingly true for me). What should my plan be from level one pretty much. Don't fight her straight up, she does too much DPS with Riposte + Burst of Speed. Save your Q for when she goes aggressive, after she uses her 2 jumps, you should e-q and disengage. Use W to outsustain her between these small trades and outpush her with Q when necessary. Rush tabi -> frozen heart for plenty of armor/mana/cdr. Go movespeed quints to help you disengage better at early levels. Start boots and you'll be guaranteed to have a movespeed advantage unless she does the exact same build, and even if she does, your slow beats her haste due to how movespeed is calculated. If the Fiora realizes she can just farm, and does, you can deal with her diving your carry in teamfights by saving Exhaust for her, and building a slow item such as Frozen Mallet so you can peel her effectively. If you shut down her attempts at assassinating your carry, you essentially make her worthless in a teamfight because she lacks anything other than damage. After she blows her cds, it's easy enough to pick her off and engage the rest of her team in a 5v4. EDIT: The main thing is to not let her get kills and snowball on you. She only really becomes scary if she can burst someone down in a full combo, and if she's not getting lots of gold from kills in lane, it makes it much harder for her to do that. If she plays balls to the wall aggressive, you can ask your jungler to gank for you since she'll be wasting her escapes trying to get to you. Really..? I thought jax and darius were the only melee champs that could outtrade an olaf's E. I mean olaf can build armor&life and gp5 like pros do, E and fiora has no answer.
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11589 Posts
On June 25 2012 11:53 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 15:17 yamato77 wrote:On June 24 2012 12:54 Zabad wrote: Hmm alright going to the expert Olaf players here at TL. How should a lane be played against fiora, because i see some forums saying that olaf should win and some saying that fiora rips apart olaf (this seemingly true for me). What should my plan be from level one pretty much. Don't fight her straight up, she does too much DPS with Riposte + Burst of Speed. Save your Q for when she goes aggressive, after she uses her 2 jumps, you should e-q and disengage. Use W to outsustain her between these small trades and outpush her with Q when necessary. Rush tabi -> frozen heart for plenty of armor/mana/cdr. Go movespeed quints to help you disengage better at early levels. Start boots and you'll be guaranteed to have a movespeed advantage unless she does the exact same build, and even if she does, your slow beats her haste due to how movespeed is calculated. If the Fiora realizes she can just farm, and does, you can deal with her diving your carry in teamfights by saving Exhaust for her, and building a slow item such as Frozen Mallet so you can peel her effectively. If you shut down her attempts at assassinating your carry, you essentially make her worthless in a teamfight because she lacks anything other than damage. After she blows her cds, it's easy enough to pick her off and engage the rest of her team in a 5v4. EDIT: The main thing is to not let her get kills and snowball on you. She only really becomes scary if she can burst someone down in a full combo, and if she's not getting lots of gold from kills in lane, it makes it much harder for her to do that. If she plays balls to the wall aggressive, you can ask your jungler to gank for you since she'll be wasting her escapes trying to get to you. Really..? I thought jax and darius were the only melee champs that could outtrade an olaf's E. I mean olaf can build armor&life and gp5 like pros do, E and fiora has no answer. Yes, his E, when maxed first, is an amazing nuke. It makes his burst damage significantly stronger than most other champion's. However, Fiora mainly maxes Riposte first so she gets free AD + a ridiculous aspeed steriod (even at only 1 level invested) meaning that in prolonged engages, she outtrades Olaf. Hence, my setup is designed to disengage from her once she's blown e, the 2 q's, and activated riposte. She goes E->Q->Auto->Q->W, and then you E->Q (do not auto!) and run away. By minimizing her damage from E and ignoring W, you can win trades due to your E being as powerful as it is and creep aggro that Fiora has to draw in order to do damage.
Your base movespeed matches hers, so with movespeed quints and boots (plus 21 defense and/or 9 utility) you are guaranteed to have enough movespeed after the slow to run away without her getting any more autos off. If she tries to trade you with E and W on cd, your E+Q burst and W make you the clear winner. After you get past the early levels and start stacking armor+health, she becomes a lot less scary.
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From experience, Riven and Irelia (at least) ca outtrade Olaf too. Irelia's kinda weak early on but after 2-3 levels in W she can last hit normally and whenever Olaf E her she E him back, activates hiten style and start bashing him until he runs or his E is going to be available again.
Riven, well... is Riven, with bullshit scaling on every auto and AD scaling shield.
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Haha alright thanks for the help guys, I'll keep all this in mind when i go against a fiora next time.
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On June 25 2012 17:01 Alaric wrote: From experience, Riven and Irelia (at least) ca outtrade Olaf too. Irelia's kinda weak early on but after 2-3 levels in W she can last hit normally and whenever Olaf E her she E him back, activates hiten style and start bashing him until he runs or his E is going to be available again.
Riven, well... is Riven, with bullshit scaling on every auto and AD scaling shield.
Re: Riven
in my experience, olaf is a great counter to Riven. Since riven is basically a pure AD champ, you can build armor to counter her:
-armor quints -armor mastery -ninja tabi -wriggles
meanwhile, she can't counter you with armor since most of your damage, which comes from E, is true damage.
Also, you have sustain, while she doesn't. She has a small shield which is good for auto-attack trades, but one E will take out the shield + hp, then when she has to back off, throw an axe in her back and chase her away. The only way riven can trade well is to max her shield first, which completely gimps her damage. Most rivens max order is W -> E -> Q, so you should already be ahead before she can start trading.
If you can not die and stay even in cs, then when you finish your wriggles + tabi you should be ahead.
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Is Wukong a strong pick against Olaf? I got destroyed by a Wu last game...
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He'll trash you if you E his decoy, or if you let him QE-aa you. In those cases he'll severely outtrade you. But if you hit your Es, force him to use EQ instead, and use your innate sustain from W, you should win those trades. Plus E has a shorter cooldown.
If he uses decoy and you have a general idea of his direction you can Q to slow him and catch-up once he reappears. If he tries to use decoy everytime he'll run oom much faster than you as your E doesn't cost mana.
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Has anyone tried building soul shroud on olaf? I've never tried it, but it seems like it would be good since it gives +health and +CDR, probably the 2 best stats for him. And of course it's good for teamfights.
There are of course some other great CDR items, but soul shroud seems like it could be useful if you have an AP-ish jungler and AP-ish support (for example something like maokai jungle/soraka support).
Although most people that want CDR have a build that reaches the cap, so the CDR aura might make some items wasted.
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On June 15 2012 19:34 brolaf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 08:39 gtrsrs wrote: offensive AD items definitely do not have diminishing returns AD items work together in that IE is good, and PD is good, but having both is definitely worth more than the sum of the individual pieces. throw in a last whisper and you have 3 items that are not only cost-efficient by themselves, but also get exponentially better as you complete the set They multiplicate each others bonuses. Their individual bonuses are linear. Which means the relative bonus diminishes after each item of the same type you get. Same with defensive items. Armor and life multiplicate each others bonuses. Their individual bonuses are linear. Armor/res also multiplicates life steal and shields. with AD you get as,ad,crit,pen,ls,crit dmg that multiplicate each other. wih defense you get armor,life,ls. so 3 less stats. which may mean that in a duel the weight is more on the offensive stats, but they too have the same fundamental diminishin dynamics Don't forget AS reduction, which is a pretty normal thing to have vs terrifying AD carries, and multiplies incredibly well with your other stuff.
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On July 03 2012 02:22 BlasiuS wrote: Has anyone tried building soul shroud on olaf? I've never tried it, but it seems like it would be good since it gives +health and +CDR, probably the 2 best stats for him. And of course it's good for teamfights.
There are of course some other great CDR items, but soul shroud seems like it could be useful if you have an AP-ish jungler and AP-ish support (for example something like maokai jungle/soraka support).
Although most people that want CDR have a build that reaches the cap, so the CDR aura might make some items wasted. biggest problem with soul shroud is that it's expensive and a good chunk of it's cost goes into the +12 mana regen aura, which is relatively worthless. Not only that, but it's pretty easy to get cdr cap (or damn near it) with 21 def masteries and frozen heart/randuins, which are both really darn good on olaf.
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Buy a giants belt and kindlegem and get more for cheaper.
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0K. Am I supposed to be able to do any kind of shit against Yorick as Olaf? I got an early kill on him (he started meki+pots, I had to use my 5 pots for this), but he had enough to buy tear and after that... well he went back with tear, no boots, no pots. And then there was absolutely nothing I could do. No way to make damage stick through his sustain, no way to sustain the damage from ghoul if I tank them, zoned from minions if I sit in the bush... the ganks were just icing on the cake, he had 40cs on me just doing nothing but pressing WE if I tried to get closer than axe range.
I ran AD, armor, a mix of flat and scaling MR, MS; started cloth+5 into boots+NMM+pots, then phage, level both Q and E at the same time. What am I supposed to do apart from praying no fucking bastard decides to play him, eat every axe, die at level 3 and still win lane through brainless spamming?
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I would've rushed wriggle's, vamp scepter first. Knowing it's Yorick and he's an asshole, I would have disregarded leveling E and focus on Q and W so you could stay in lane and kill minions easier. Whatever you got to do to salvage the lane. Too many factors to account for but maybe you could have went aggro and pushed the lane into him at level 1 with axes.
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On September 29 2012 09:44 Alaric wrote: 0K. Am I supposed to be able to do any kind of shit against Yorick as Olaf? I got an early kill on him (he started meki+pots, I had to use my 5 pots for this), but he had enough to buy tear and after that... well he went back with tear, no boots, no pots. And then there was absolutely nothing I could do. No way to make damage stick through his sustain, no way to sustain the damage from ghoul if I tank them, zoned from minions if I sit in the bush... the ganks were just icing on the cake, he had 40cs on me just doing nothing but pressing WE if I tried to get closer than axe range.
I ran AD, armor, a mix of flat and scaling MR, MS; started cloth+5 into boots+NMM+pots, then phage, level both Q and E at the same time. What am I supposed to do apart from praying no fucking bastard decides to play him, eat every axe, die at level 3 and still win lane through brainless spamming?
Just played my first olaf vs yorick lane, but to my surprise he was actually unable to stop me from farming once I got wriggles. It was clearly also a pretty bad yorick, but max W and wriggles gives you pretty insane sustain -- you'll steal life back from his ghouls, it's only him directly attacking you that you need to avoid. I'd be curious to hear what others think of the matchup.
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olaf is a very strong jungler that is underplayed, he's similar to udyr but with a ranged slow instead of a melee stun
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After playing top for a few months Olaf has been my most consistently enjoyable champ. I would like to make an updated guide for him for solotop, his ult works a bit differently than when this guide was first created, and numerous item changes have changed the way most people build him(e.g. atma's and warmog's have both been nerfed in past year).
I'm not sure how new guides for current champs work on this forum; do I need a banling blessing, or just make it?
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On November 03 2012 01:31 BlasiuS wrote: After playing top for a few months Olaf has been my most consistently enjoyable champ. I would like to make an updated guide for him for solotop, his ult works a bit differently than when this guide was first created, and numerous item changes have changed the way most people build him(e.g. atma's and warmog's have both been nerfed in past year).
I'm not sure how new guides for current champs work on this forum; do I need a banling blessing, or just make it?
Just write a guide and post it in response; PM Kaniol to get it linked or maybe even copied into the OP. If he doesn't respond, PM Neo about starting a new Olaf thread.
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Well olaf is viable as both jungler and solotop, and the guide is currently for jungle, I'd rather not delete the current jungler guide, but my guide is detailed enough for a separate OP. Although, even as a jungler guide, it's currently a bit outdated I think.
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What do you guys build on olaf? I know mallet is good on him because he sticks to carries like a strong adhesive and randuins and warmogs help him tank like a beast but is there a general sort of plan for your starting items? I know that you need to build based on your situation but some advice would be great.
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I keep debating whether to max Q or E first when laning top, I've seen it played both ways at high level. Maxing Q first seems to be better overall for lane control and is useful in many situations, E seems to be better for 1v1 battles? Anyone who maxes E first want to explain why it's better to level over Q?
And should you always get a level of W early on, or is it better to skip?
Also saw HotShotGG pick teleport for his Olaf yesterday, that was interesting. And he maxed Q first, btw.
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Your tanky Olaf is pretty bad. Also E skill sucks, though maybe not for your tanks style, but if you change some resist items for attack items + use life steal wisely you make a much much better Olaf.
I'm pretty negative sorry for that.
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On November 28 2012 02:07 rhs408 wrote: I keep debating whether to max Q or E first when laning top, I've seen it played both ways at high level. Maxing Q first seems to be better overall for lane control and is useful in many situations, E seems to be better for 1v1 battles? Anyone who maxes E first want to explain why it's better to level over Q?
And should you always get a level of W early on, or is it better to skip?
Also saw HotShotGG pick teleport for his Olaf yesterday, that was interesting. And he maxed Q first, btw.
I don't know if maxing E is better but I like it more because having a 5 sec cd 340 true dmg is pretty fun and it is easier to harass/trade without pushing creeps.But I like to try to freeze and zone other guy rather than pushing and roaming so it depends on playstyle.
I usually build him something like Phage/shur/randuin and then mallet/fon(obv some mr if needed inbetween or later).
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On November 28 2012 02:07 rhs408 wrote: I keep debating whether to max Q or E first when laning top, I've seen it played both ways at high level. Maxing Q first seems to be better overall for lane control and is useful in many situations, E seems to be better for 1v1 battles? Anyone who maxes E first want to explain why it's better to level over Q?
And should you always get a level of W early on, or is it better to skip?
Also saw HotShotGG pick teleport for his Olaf yesterday, that was interesting. And he maxed Q first, btw.
Q max is better vs ranged because you need to be able to clear wave quickly and punish ranged harass hard through axe chaining. E max is better vs melee's because you'll be able to get it off far more often without needing to land an axe. Point in W is better than a second point in Q/E almost always because it's stronger for both all-inning(auto/Q bonus damage+lifesteal is better than extra damage on one skill).
Also Q max is stronger when you're at a disadvantage for obvious reasons.
TP olaf is for lanes where you know killing the other guy is going to be hard/impossible, and he can't kill you, so you want to leverage advantages elsewhere.
I like double GP10->shurelya+phage-> giant's belt(warmog if ahead, FM if even or behind) item->resists. If you get fed though, triforce rush is very, very strong for forcing objectives and ending games.
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On November 28 2012 02:07 rhs408 wrote: I keep debating whether to max Q or E first when laning top, I've seen it played both ways at high level. Maxing Q first seems to be better overall for lane control and is useful in many situations, E seems to be better for 1v1 battles? Anyone who maxes E first want to explain why it's better to level over Q?
And should you always get a level of W early on, or is it better to skip?
Also saw HotShotGG pick teleport for his Olaf yesterday, that was interesting. And he maxed Q first, btw.
Good rule that I use:
against champs that have to get within range of E to last hit/harass/trade, max E first. Otherwise max Q first.
Good examples of champs to max E first: Jax, Irelia, Singed, Riven, Renekton Good examples of champs to max Q first: Any ranged champ, Pantheon, Akali, Darius
Always get 1 point of W before level 6, it gives a huge boost for 1 point. ~15-25 AD depending on your health, plus lifesteal and spell vamp for trades.
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any thoughts on the new items and olaf? Just played 3 games in a row (against Irelia, Xin, Irelia) and so far, aside from a sightstone the flask instead of potions i haven't felt the need to touch anything new.
Core is still Frosthammer and Warmogs armor, coupled with Ninja tabi. After that Atmas (their mid failed hard, so AD damage was primary concern) and guardian angel.
Anything spectacular I've missed, that I should have gotten instead?
(edit: regarding skill orders, no matter if I max Q or E first, the point in W at 4 is pretty mandatory. It's both some damage as well as insane synergy with your passive. If you win a fight 1v1 barely without it, you'll win it handily with it).
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Just get some ArPen blues, rush a black cleaver, press C at level 6 and look at the value near the "Armor Penetration" line.
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On December 07 2012 03:36 Alaric wrote: Just get some ArPen blues, rush a black cleaver, press C at level 6 and look at the value near the "Armor Penetration" line. true, but the point of olaf is to tank anything possible while still dealing true damage to the enemy. In most fights my damage comes from E and Q, not autoattacks (because they WILL try to kite you). So I am really not sure if Black cleaver is worth it. Guess I'll play around with that.
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Black Cleaver gives health and cdr, both of which are good for Olaf. This is important with the nerfed shurelia.
It builds from brutalizer and provides armor pen, which makes Q's/autos hit way harder.
It is definitely the best offensive item to buy on Olaf right now.
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See, Olaf without black cleaver right now does a lot of physical and true damage. However, Olaf with black cleaver right now does a lot of true and true damage.
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I go BC -> warmog's now.
I can usually go straight for BC, but if I need to space it out, go brutalizer -> giant's belt -> BC -> warmogs
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I've jungled Olaf in the new jungle and he's incredibly strong built as a tank. 0/21/9 masteries. Max Q first if you're rushing Spirit of the Lizzard Elder. Otherwise I get 2 points in Q first, 1 in W, and then max E by level 9 if I'm building tank items first.
Spirit of the Lizzard Elder, Warmogs, Frozen Heart, Maw of Malmortis, and the tier 3 boots upgrade that speeds up teammates moving towards you. It really helps initiating fights since you'll be deep diving their carries with your ult. Warmogs is too good on him now and I feel i don't need the FM slow, just hit your Q. Frozen Heart give 20% cdr so spam that Q-E while you debuff their team. Early dorans shield is great too.
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I would replace Spirit of the Lizzard Elder with Black Cleaver if your playing him top lane. Otherwise I build the same. Against melee build tanky first and max E. Against ranged build damage first and max Q. Get extra points in W only if you cant win trades in lane (rare but useful against Yorick).
Always take Ghost. Teleport is good for TP-ganks since you should have wards everywhere.
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What runes are you running on him in the jungle, Ghost-z?
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On December 09 2012 04:46 Haasts wrote: What runes are you running on him in the jungle, Ghost-z? personal preference: arpen red, armor yellows, scaling MR blues, either MS or avarice quints.
Personally I am still running avarice quints when i jungle, simply to make up for the lowered farm, but I have tried MS quints, and ganking does work a bit a easier (still if you miss the first axe the gank fails whatever runes you have, so I'll stick to my gold option for now.
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On December 09 2012 04:46 Haasts wrote: What runes are you running on him in the jungle, Ghost-z? Mix of ArmorPen and Damage Reds, Armor yellows, MR/lvl blues, Movement Speed Quints.
I used to go with about 10 armor pen on reds (rest flat AD) because that allows you to do true damage against against most monsters with your basic attacks. However now with the new "Hunters Machete" jungle item I will be switching to Attack Speed Reds as soon as I can afford them.
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TIL that the Brolaf skin is called Olaf Hyungssi in Korean. Thought it was pretty funny
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Does anyone know what runes/masteries the koreans run for Olaf top nowadays ?
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Someone teach me how to build/skill brolaf top lol. I feel like I'm just farming with Q all day, but if I go as aggro as I normally do I die :<. Should I be aiming for endgame?
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On January 04 2013 06:55 Mondeezy wrote: Someone teach me how to build/skill brolaf top lol. I feel like I'm just farming with Q all day, but if I go as aggro as I normally do I die :<. Should I be aiming for endgame?
Skills: against champs that have to get within range of E to last hit/harass/trade, max E first. Otherwise max Q first. Max the other 2nd, max W last. Always get R whenever possible (level 6/11/16).
My core items for top lane olaf: BC/locket/spirit visage. At first I was getting warmog's early, but the CDR on locket and visage is too good to pass up. I get warmog's after, or situational based on enemy comp/how game is going/who's fed.
runes: flat armor yellow, MR/level blues, any combination of armor pen/AD marks & quints you feel comfortable with.
masteries: 9/21/0, getting CDR + weapon expertise in offense, and getting all health masteries + resist masteries (except legendary armor, it's trash) + champ damage reduction masteries in defense. I don't take either of the cc reduction masteries since he can ignore all CC during a teamfight, and they don't really do much during laning. Leftover points can go into whatever combination of perseverance/good hands/reinforced armor/safeguard is best for the current game.
Olaf has a strong early-game, below average mid-game, and super strong late-game. You should definitely be aiming for late-game, but Olaf is also ridiculously easy to snowball with, since once you get ahead, all it takes is landing one axe to secure a kill.
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On January 05 2013 07:14 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2013 06:55 Mondeezy wrote: Someone teach me how to build/skill brolaf top lol. I feel like I'm just farming with Q all day, but if I go as aggro as I normally do I die :<. Should I be aiming for endgame? Skills: against champs that have to get within range of E to last hit/harass/trade, max E first. Otherwise max Q first. Max the other 2nd, max W last. Always get R whenever possible (level 6/11/16). My core items for top lane olaf: BC/locket/spirit visage. At first I was getting warmog's early, but the CDR on locket and visage is too good to pass up. I get warmog's after, or situational based on enemy comp/how game is going/who's fed. runes: flat armor yellow, MR/level blues, any combination of armor pen/AD marks & quints you feel comfortable with. masteries: 9/21/0, getting CDR + weapon expertise in offense, and getting all health masteries + resist masteries (except legendary armor, it's trash) + champ damage reduction masteries in defense. I don't take either of the cc reduction masteries since he can ignore all CC during a teamfight, and they don't really do much during laning. Leftover points can go into whatever combination of perseverance/good hands/reinforced armor/safeguard is best for the current game. Olaf has a strong early-game, below average mid-game, and super strong late-game. You should definitely be aiming for late-game, but Olaf is also ridiculously easy to snowball with, since once you get ahead, all it takes is landing one axe to secure a kill. pros generally rush warmog
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WHy take BC when you have true dmg?
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3 reasons: Axe spam is pretty powerful, as are the steroided autoattacks and ragnarok gives you significant flat armor pen.
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Olaf without Black Cleaver has true damage and physical damage. Olaf with Black Cleaver has true damage and true damage.
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I have played quite alot of games on olaf, and while it may not be the most fun way to play (arp/cdr axe spam!) just building full tank is best in 99% of games.
Warmogs/sunfire/randiuns/fh, pick and choose from them, but olaf does so much damage without needing dps items and simply just needs to be tanky enough to be in the fight.
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BC's good to 100%->0 somebody in lane but outside of that it's usefulness on olaf isn't that great. If you go Warmogs instead, into FM or Sunfire he's a lot more effective. Olaf doesn't need any extra damage, so having a Warmogs in lane will let you freely trade with whoever is there as long as they want to farm. You might not be able to straight up kill your lane opponent but you won't be gankable and you'll shut down the enemies farm. It's not like people can itemize to stop your damage.
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So were the nerfs rough enough to cause Olaf's downfall, or was it one of those kneejerk reactions on the playerbase's part where they just dropped him because he got nerfed? He still has all the things that make him scary, I'd argue.
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dont build damage on olaf
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On February 20 2013 00:26 Requizen wrote: So were the nerfs rough enough to cause Olaf's downfall, or was it one of those kneejerk reactions on the playerbase's part where they just dropped him because he got nerfed? He still has all the things that make him scary, I'd argue. He has a pretty big problem actually getting up to somebody's face. A few times he's been picked in pro games, I'd watch him running after somebody, land a few axes but not get close enough to follow up. As soon as a single axe is dodged, the person getting chased successfully escapes.
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450 minimum range on his axe seems hellishly long. :>
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On July 11 2013 15:16 zer0das wrote: 450 minimum range on his axe seems hellishly long. :>
the collision for the axe is apparently something like 150 though, and the champ itself is like 125(150?), so it's actually only 150-175 range of gap closure. I think that's acceptable.
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I am getting the feeling from the changes that how weak he is right now is not being fully appreciated. And I hope Smash gets a chance to read this instead of the insane Riot thread. In particular there are a few disturbing quotes:
60 Armor and MR doesn't make you immune to damage but it's an incredibly high amount of mitigation. If the counterplay to the 4K HP guy running at my carry is supposed to be "focus him" I think it's completely unreasonable that he gets tank steroid level stats while he does so while still posing a realistic threat of soloing your ranged carry in under 5 seconds.
Re: Ult trade off feeling crappy at times, I guess I just don't see a healthy counterplay option to godmode Ragnarok. Massive mitigation, CC immunity, and the offensive tools necessary to catch and kill high priority targets just leaves teams with so little in the way of counterplay.
These first two I think are a problem in that they seem to ignore that Olaf, if he does not amount to a "godmode Ragnarok" who can "solo your ranged carry in under 5 seconds" doesn't have much of a niche.
How would you feel if the AD bonus from Vicious Strikes was just a (higher) flat number instead of scaling off total health? I'm currently finding this tooltip to be a big gross nightmare of mechanics and am wondering if the health -> damage component of this skill is really adding anything to it at this point. Changing this to a flat value should make offensive itemization feel better since he loses the theoretical hyper scaling off of defense and the base numbers could be scaled to the point where they make Olaf sufficiently threatening even if he built tank.
This second quote is tied to the first. If he loses defensive stats while ulting, how is it logical to not make his steroid scale with defense? This is obviously a response to a trollish post, but the fact that it is entertained as not tomfoolery is bizarre.
Edit. And to clarify, the counterplay to Olaf is supposed to be "kill the rest of his team before he kills us". Basically, Olaf is supposed to use his ult to dictate when fights happen ON HIS TERMS, like a Malphite ult you are not supposed to be able to do some kind of 5 man kite, kill Olaf, then re-engage on the rest of his team, when he ults and start chasing you, he is supposed to be able to say "this fight is happening, whether you like it or not".
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Newest Olaf Iteration.
http://www.surrenderat20.net/2013/07/smashgizmo-with-another-iteration-of.html#more
Random comment: I think the ult active needs to be a steroid that affects his axes or his reckless swing, because those are his bread and butter skills when ulting. All the focus on Attack Speed or Lifesteal basically forces him to take ghost (cus you cant really AA as a Melle without it), and means his ult really doesn't have much teamfight utility without Ghost (particularly because you sacrifice so much tankiness). Perhaps something like:
Active: Olaf's skills now Shred Armor, or Active: Reckless Swing Does double damage against targest affected by undertow Active: Undertow Now throws 3 Axes in a cone (Like Buckshot)
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I think I like this version more than the first. The changes to the axes are nice. Not sure how I feel about viscous strikes straight up giving 80 AD when active at level 5 though. I can imagine some weird crit builds being pretty oppressive in lane, because that's a hella lot of free AD without having to be low on health either, especially with all those new items with crit coming out.
I like the ult change coming from the perspective of having to fight him as a team, but not as an Olaf player. If it's only going to be 5 seconds now, some minor vamp when their entire team is trying to slow you probably isn't going to help an awful lot. 3 axes in a cone would be hilarious. I don't think it would be that strong either, since you get to use it maybe twice.
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The newest Olaf changes make no sense, once again, unless you think olaf is not a real character.
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I like it. I think Smash is doing some pretty solid work here.
I like Ragnarok buffing his skills too, but honestly I'd prefer if it were more a number thing than a skill change thing. Like say he presses R and his skills just do 50% more damage. I dunno if that balanced or not just a random number, but it sure as hell would feel cool, would emphasize the "Dont fight him 1v1 like this" and would probably make the entire enemy team focus him like a boss if he was running at enemy AD.
Probably feel a lot more noticable for the Olaf player than double passive/free lifesteal. I dunno, lifesteal cool but as a tank unless you have obscene amounts of lifesteal you wont ever really notice it. For example I can't say the last time I was playing Nasus Jungle and went "Aww my god, yussss! My Passive lifesteal saved me so hard that fight!" Its there an all, and I am sure it has saved me many times, but it doesn't feel impactful because you not have huge AD.
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so here's the latest iteration:
General - Base Mana moderately reduced - Mana per level moderately reduced - Attack Speed per level moderately reduced - Attack Damage per level moderately reduced Undertow - Base Damage moderately reduced - Slow Percent moderately increased - Slow Duration moderately reduced (based on distance traveled) - Slow no longer decays - Minimum distance added - Axes now stick in walls and structures only if they would land in impassible terrain - Axes now make jungle monsters ignore unit collision to enable Olaf's Axe pickup play in the jungle better Vicious Strikes - Mana cost significantly reduced at later levels (to a flat cost across all ranks) - Now provides % extra healing for every __% health Olaf is missing - Health ratio removed from AD component - Base Damage significantly increased - Lifesteal minorly reduced - Spellvamp removed Reckless Swing - Cooldown moderately increased - Damage moderately reduced reduced (more at later ranks) - Bonus AD ratio added - Cost is equal to __% of total damage dealt (unchanged ratio) - Basic attacks lower the cooldown of Reckless Swing Ragnarok - Cooldown changed to be higher at lower levels and lower at later levels - Mana Cost removed - Now provides Armor / Magic Resistance passively - Active Reworked: Now removes the passive portion of the ability while active, grants a significant AD bonus - Olaf now turns Red when Ragnarok is active - Retains his immunity to disables
+AD when using ragnarok actually IS the "do more damage with skills" that you're looking for (Reckless swing also has an AD ratio now)
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My concern with the rework is the undertow changes. Even when he was picked every game, it was still a very unreliable skill, and one that was still very hard to use. If the slow isnt enough, then really he is just going to be an all-in character, which doesn't work if he loses his defense when he ults.
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On August 28 2013 04:44 cLutZ wrote: My concern with the rework is the undertow changes. Even when he was picked every game, it was still a very unreliable skill, and one that was still very hard to use. If the slow isnt enough, then really he is just going to be an all-in character, which doesn't work if he loses his defense when he ults. Eh. I wouldn't say Q was unreliable. Pro top laners, especially Korean ones, were able to consistently hit their Qs and chain them reasonably well.
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I think that is a bit of the kind of selection bias. Because, when I watched, what happens typically is you miss several axes, then when you hit one you go in and can chain them well.
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On August 28 2013 07:42 cLutZ wrote: I think that is a bit of the kind of selection bias. Because, when I watched, what happens typically is you miss several axes, then when you hit one you go in and can chain them well. back when I started (about a year ago) undertow was so cheap to throw that you could easily afford to miss 2-3 in lane before you even had a chance to run oom.
I certainly remember missing quite a few during crucial ganks/fights but in general it isn't one of the hardest to hit skillshots because the projectile speed and hitbox were high / large. Still when his slow didn't diminish you needed very mobile champion to get away from him.
I'm actually curious how he would do today with the new phage and his old style ult (meaning the arpen back in). I've rolled him in Arams sometimes and was surprised how strong he still is if you have a decent bank behind you.
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Its hard to know because Toplane has seen so many nerfs to important champions since he got hit.
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bonus ad to true damage count me in :D
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On August 28 2013 15:29 TomatoShark wrote: bonus ad to true damage count me in :D eh. the ratio will probably suck :\
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Can't wait for new BrOlaf to come live!
Going to have to wait until after worlds but I'm jumping on that S4 Olaf train.
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Hm, dunno. Just played him, and his kit is really cool if his stats weren't so shitty. Changes seem to be ok although I'm not sure about the reduction of the mana costs. With Nasus/Malph you also hava mana probs but they are still playable. Anyway, can't await the remake.
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On September 05 2013 08:49 Djin)ftw( wrote: Hm, dunno. Just played him, and his kit is really cool if his stats weren't so shitty. Changes seem to be ok although I'm not sure about the reduction of the mana costs. With Nasus/Malph you also hava mana probs but they are still playable. Anyway, can't await the remake.
I think that's the issue they are having, his kit is quite good which means his stats are either acceptable and he's OP or they are horrible and he's Eve.
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WTF are these olaf changes?
They are nerfing his base everything, and making his dueling/teamfighting reliant on using autoattacks? Melle characters dont get to use autos in teamfights. I mean, his W is an AS boost with lifesteal? He honestly looks like they are trying to make him into Aatrox 0.5.
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On September 10 2013 07:25 cLutZ wrote: WTF are these olaf changes?
They are nerfing his base everything, and making his dueling/teamfighting reliant on using autoattacks? Melle characters dont get to use autos in teamfights. I mean, his W is an AS boost with lifesteal? He honestly looks like they are trying to make him into Aatrox 0.5.
To be honest, melee characters do get to auto when they have cc immunity
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On September 10 2013 09:55 zodde wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2013 07:25 cLutZ wrote: WTF are these olaf changes?
They are nerfing his base everything, and making his dueling/teamfighting reliant on using autoattacks? Melle characters dont get to use autos in teamfights. I mean, his W is an AS boost with lifesteal? He honestly looks like they are trying to make him into Aatrox 0.5. To be honest, melee characters do get to auto when they have cc immunity
Meh, 5s, no AA reset, no hard CC. Plus, because your Melle, AS is less helpful when you are being kited. Not to mention you lose your survivability when you go CC immune and don't get free AD for building tank now.
He might be good, but that will just be a #s thing. The "rework" really isn't putting him in a place of long term balancablity, and seems to be leaving him near current Olaf form. I think it all has something to do with Riot Assuming Olaf always has Ghost up, which is semi-idiotic, like assuming Sona always has Flash up.
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Kited? Just get a Trinity Force, Olaf can trigger it constantly anyway. hue
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New Olaf is finally live! Been waiting for this all year. My thoughts on him:
he now gets huge amounts of AS from passive + W. No need to build AS on him at all. He gets AD from his ult, and now his E scales with total AD, so there is a bit more incentive to build AD on him compared to before.
He increases his healing when W is active, which gives incentive to build lifesteal.
He doesn't like CDR as much now since both is Q and E have reset mechanics, although CDR is still certainly useful for him. He's also doesn't itemize for health nearly as much as before.
I'm thinking hydra is core on him due to good AD/clear/lifesteal. SV is also core against an AP lane, since it increases his lifesteal even more and gives great stats overall.
After hydra/SV build tank, I'm guessing randuin's is the next obvious choice due to Olaf wanting to dive the AD carry.
In my games played so far, the 400 range minimum still allows you to perma slow your target if you get next to them. however, olaf is worse when the target turns and fights since you can't just throw the axe right at your feet and machine-gun the target to death.
Ragnarok's +80AD at level 3 is huge.
If you need more damage after hydra, get BC or LW. However due to his improved lifesteal mechanics and his AD-scaling true damage, i'm almost tempted to just buy a BT if I need more damage.
No more than 2 damage items, since once you turn on ult you lose your resists. This means you need to build tank to stay alive in fights. Randuin's/SV is such a good core for bruisers/tanks, after that get atma's or FH if you need armor, hexdrinker/maw if you need MR, or something situational like thornmail/GA. I've built hydra -> randiun's/SV -> SV/randuin's in my games so far and it has worked well.
doran blade's are extremely good on him since he has an on-demand AS steroid and wants to trade whenever possible (meaning more AS from his passive)
edit: oh his W giving a large amount of AS means that he is much better at split-pushing, since he can take town towers much faster even at full health.
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On October 02 2013 00:12 BlasiuS wrote: New Olaf is finally live! Been waiting for this all year. My thoughts on him:
he now gets huge amounts of AS from passive + W. No need to build AS on him at all. He gets AD from his ult, and now his E scales with total AD, so there is a bit more incentive to build AD on him compared to before.
He increases his healing when W is active, which gives incentive to build lifesteal.
He doesn't like CDR as much now since both is Q and E have reset mechanics, although CDR is still certainly useful for him. He's also doesn't itemize for health nearly as much as before.
I'm thinking hydra is core on him due to good AD/clear/lifesteal. SV is also core against an AP lane, since it increases his lifesteal even more and gives great stats overall.
After hydra/SV build tank, I'm guessing randuin's is the next obvious choice due to Olaf wanting to dive the AD carry.
In my games played so far, the 400 range minimum still allows you to perma slow your target if you get next to them. however, olaf is worse when the target turns and fights since you can't just throw the axe right at your feet and machine-gun the target to death.
Ragnarok's +80AD at level 3 is huge.
If you need more damage after hydra, get BC or LW. However due to his improved lifesteal mechanics and his AD-scaling true damage, i'm almost tempted to just buy a BT if I need more damage.
No more than 2 damage items, since once you turn on ult you lose your resists. This means you need to build tank to stay alive in fights. Randuin's/SV is such a good core for bruisers/tanks, after that get atma's or FH if you need armor, hexdrinker/maw if you need MR, or something situational like thornmail/GA. I've built hydra -> randiun's/SV -> SV/randuin's in my games so far and it has worked well.
doran blade's are extremely good on him since he has an on-demand AS steroid and wants to trade whenever possible (meaning more AS from his passive) So straight tank olaf doesn't work like in the pre-nerf glory days? I'm not use to building damage items on olaf, but I like your build so I will give hydra tank olaf a try.
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Just theory crafting here:
Runes: AD, Armor, MR (quints are very flexible, LS, MS, AD, HP) Masteries: 9-21-0
Doran's shield start. Spirit Visage is mandatory! Frozen Heart or Randuins depending on the enemy team comp. Maw looks great now that Olaf scales with extra AD against heavy magic teams. Phage looks like an excellent item in lane for sticking to people between the axe slows. I'm not sold on Triforce.
I'd suggest that Botrk is better than Hydra, it may not push as fast but you can spam axes and you'd be much stronger to get that kill in a 1v1 and with all the free and high base AS he has the on-hit mechanic gives great synergy and lets you murder the ADC.
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On October 02 2013 00:40 UnKooL wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 00:12 BlasiuS wrote: New Olaf is finally live! Been waiting for this all year. My thoughts on him:
he now gets huge amounts of AS from passive + W. No need to build AS on him at all. He gets AD from his ult, and now his E scales with total AD, so there is a bit more incentive to build AD on him compared to before.
He increases his healing when W is active, which gives incentive to build lifesteal.
He doesn't like CDR as much now since both is Q and E have reset mechanics, although CDR is still certainly useful for him. He's also doesn't itemize for health nearly as much as before.
I'm thinking hydra is core on him due to good AD/clear/lifesteal. SV is also core against an AP lane, since it increases his lifesteal even more and gives great stats overall.
After hydra/SV build tank, I'm guessing randuin's is the next obvious choice due to Olaf wanting to dive the AD carry.
In my games played so far, the 400 range minimum still allows you to perma slow your target if you get next to them. however, olaf is worse when the target turns and fights since you can't just throw the axe right at your feet and machine-gun the target to death.
Ragnarok's +80AD at level 3 is huge.
If you need more damage after hydra, get BC or LW. However due to his improved lifesteal mechanics and his AD-scaling true damage, i'm almost tempted to just buy a BT if I need more damage.
No more than 2 damage items, since once you turn on ult you lose your resists. This means you need to build tank to stay alive in fights. Randuin's/SV is such a good core for bruisers/tanks, after that get atma's or FH if you need armor, hexdrinker/maw if you need MR, or something situational like thornmail/GA. I've built hydra -> randiun's/SV -> SV/randuin's in my games so far and it has worked well.
doran blade's are extremely good on him since he has an on-demand AS steroid and wants to trade whenever possible (meaning more AS from his passive) So straight tank olaf doesn't work like in the pre-nerf glory days? I'm not use to building damage items on olaf, but I like your build so I will give hydra tank olaf a try.
i actually think straight tank will still be viable, since has built-in AS and AD, and because his E scales with total AD (not bonus). So he can of course build straight tank and still do good damage. I just think hydra is so good on him due to his free AS, AD, and lifesteal. He is also a good split-pusher and hydra turns him into a split-pushing monster.
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I totally forgot to mention SotAG, which is way too good on Olaf to ignore. Between SotAG and SV you gain 30% cdr. I'd say adding a brutalizer to cap 40% cdr would setup Olaf for a monster mid game.
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I have a suspicion that full tank is still going to be the way to play, since building damage also increases the health cost of E. Also because you're still a melee champ with no built-in tankiness (at least, not for most of a teamfight) apart from lifesteal.
Landing autoattacks is going to be very important, both for lifesteal and more Es. Phage and/or Frozen Mallet? Capping CDR also gonna be really big.
New Olaf gonna be really farm dependant, I suspect. Needs levels, tankiness, CDR, maybe lifesteal. If only there was an item that gave spellvamp and was cost-efficient on champs with no AP ratios.
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Why spell vamp just for his E? In team fights you should be tanky enough that it shouldn't matter and in lane a dorans shield and SotAG will sustain you.
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It also applies to his Q. The healing from it is also increased by his W. Spellvamp + single target true damage is really, really good. Spellvamp + single target true damage that has a health cost but no mana cost is just juicy.
Doran's Shield isn't that much sustain; it's more useful for the damage block, esp against ranged harass.
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Ok - My thoughts on new olaf (from a diamond 1 player who playerd him alot pre nerfs) These come from 4-5 1v1 games that were allowed to continue for a while.. past first blood/first tower.
First off, early laning phase. I kinda think you just needto go q max and just survive, and use the waveclear to shove it and back alot. Vs shen and jax e max felt very very very weak as you lost every trade and once your chunked you can do nothing.. q max lets you survive until level 6 with evenish farm.
I felt like I needed to get 3-5 health pots every back for the first while, just to surivive in lane vs a shen.
vs ap tops, hexdrinker is amazing on him.. the mr/shield and ad lets you pretty much win 1v1s. Building pure tank right now seems very very weak.. It might have just been because I was playing vs shen and trying to outtank shen is pretty much always a loss, but it just felt way weaker then going hexdrinker->botrk.
Botrk is probably going to be core on new olaf because it works so well with his w e and r. Attack speed scales better then ad for his e it seems.
Just trading with e alone is pretty weak now, you kinda need extended engagements to come out on top. You need to be spamming autos so that you get the e reset or else you will just lose the 1v1.
Axe max is pretty strong in lane jjust for poke and waveclear, even vs shen. It feels like I dont oom as fast as before when maxing axe first.
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I think olaf with new changes a stronger jungle than laner. I think 1v1 he weaker, but he gets more free stats abd his Q a much better ganking tool with the normalized slow.
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I've been experimenting with all sorts of builds. It is of course hard to evaluate. I consider Shen/Renekton to be the most important tops to face, and Renekton is just a loss. All the suggested offensive itemization besides Triforce and BotRK seem bad though, because without one of them you cannot weave autos well without wasting ghost. Axe slow is strong, but without a little MS advantage you basically are relying on hitting 100% of them, and I'm no Voyboy.
Also I think more than 1 offensive item is suicide unless you are going TP/Ghost vs. Shen and just stopping his splitpush +cleaning up in fights.
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What quints are you running?
Life steal and/or Regen for extra sustain or just flat HP?
Also his E refunds the health cost when last hitting now which might benefit going Q max for harass.
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On October 02 2013 04:06 Ghost-z wrote: What quints are you running?
Life steal and/or Regen for extra sustain or just flat HP?
Also his E refunds the health cost when last hitting now which might benefit going Q max for harass.
Been trying AD, LS, and HP.
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i cannot throw axe so good, not viable caracter
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X post from GD.
So after messing around with olaf in a custom
-Need 40% CDR for mid-lategame. The axe change(min range) feels really nice and intuitive while solving the abuse case. Tried jungling with it, and it didn't seem like a big deal so long as I remembered to aim it towards a wall. The noclip upon hitting monsters with an axe helps immensely as well.
-Need 1 of triforce/botrk(hydra? didn't try). With 40% cdr & W up, so long as you can land an axe, you can stick really well. 2 autos means ~3 second CD on E(same as old, slightly lower dps), but if you can get 3 auto attacks in(not really that likely without ultimate up), you get up to about 2 seconds in between E's, which is pretty absurd.
Overall thoughts. You can't build him full tank as easily, but grab a single DPS item and you become god. The sustain at low HP with a blade is frankly ridiculous. It's like aatrox, except you heal every single auto attack. Triforce is probably better at teamfighting, while blade is better for dueling. Being able to E for lasthits is pretty awesome as well.
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While I agree you need a DPS item, I don't think it turns you into god. You need at least 1, maybe 2 defensive items to make up for how squishy you get while your ult is activated. He is just in a weird place right now. I think viable is the word.
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What about Movespeed Quints? I imagine that they'd be useful on a melee with no gapclosers.
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On October 03 2013 17:26 HughMyron wrote: What about Movespeed Quints? I imagine that they'd be useful on a melee with no gapclosers. I use MS Quints and loving it. Really helpful helping avoid ganks prior to level 6 too, and since I love to brawl as much as possible during lanephase with Olaf it helps getting an edge by faster base -> lane speed too.
@clutz: Granted I've only played two games vs Renekton as Olaf I didn't felt it was that bad. First game I got level 3 ganked, did survive tho but Renekton got an advantage since I was forced to back immediately after clearing the next wave after their gank.
Went R>Q>E>W, picked up a flask and farmed as safe as possible relying on outscaling him. While I didn't win the lane, I managed to be more relevant later. Basically going "kog'maw" and put Renekton on a clock.
Second game I got ahead, this time we level 3ed him got an assist, and went for 2x Dorans Blades on my first back with boots 1 + armor on second back.
Went R>E>W>Q and brawled with him every time I got the chance, whenever he tried to do his dash-harass I'd get off a E and sustain everything back fast thanks to Dorans and W, safely knowing his dash would have a 18 second cooldown. Come level 6 I'd go ham everytime it was off CD. Eventually grinded him out and got control of the lane through a level advantage by stronger trades forcing 1 more back than I.
Basically my thought process: 1) I outscale him. 2) If behind - survive. 3) If ahead - abuse Olaf's superior dueling and sustain from W constantly.
I can't say if it's optimal, but it worked for me (gold 3 atm - so take my experience with that in mind).
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Olaf might just be a jungler now. Highly reliant on auto attacks for damage, lots of ls and as. With all his free stats tanky might be the way to build him, definitely sounds like a jungler you'd pick to camp an ashe/zyra or something like that.
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On October 04 2013 13:04 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Olaf might just be a jungler now. Highly reliant on auto attacks for damage, lots of ls and as. With all his free stats tanky might be the way to build him, definitely sounds like a jungler you'd pick to camp an ashe/zyra or something like that.
Its how I;ve been playing him, had a ton of success.
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Jungle Olaf would build like any other tanky jungler? Ancient Golem -> Locket -> Omen/SV/whatever you needed in current situation?
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A question about axe-max olaf in lane. How are you supposed to not run out of mana? Are you just supposed to push and back constantly, or is a flask enough, or...?
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On October 07 2013 15:58 TheHumanSensation wrote: A question about axe-max olaf in lane. How are you supposed to not run out of mana? Are you just supposed to push and back constantly, or is a flask enough, or...?
You need to make axes count. It's not an ability to just mindlessly push every wave. This means last hitting with autoattacks(the horror)
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On October 07 2013 16:20 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 15:58 TheHumanSensation wrote: A question about axe-max olaf in lane. How are you supposed to not run out of mana? Are you just supposed to push and back constantly, or is a flask enough, or...? You need to make axes count. It's not an ability to just mindlessly push every wave. This means last hitting with autoattacks(the horror)
Auto attacks? That's just barbaric.
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On October 07 2013 16:35 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2013 16:20 Amui wrote:On October 07 2013 15:58 TheHumanSensation wrote: A question about axe-max olaf in lane. How are you supposed to not run out of mana? Are you just supposed to push and back constantly, or is a flask enough, or...? You need to make axes count. It's not an ability to just mindlessly push every wave. This means last hitting with autoattacks(the horror) Auto attacks? That's just barbaric. You laugh...but the game really makes the aa a liability
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Been playing Olaf a ton since Wednesday, he's significantly different than pre-rework olaf.
His early-game is super weak. Even maxing E first I have trouble trading with heavy-hitting AD champs like Renekton/Riven/Garen (god I played against Garen so much this past week). I also have trouble out-sustaining champs like Aatrox/Irelia.
Then there's the fact that even in a favorable matchup if I get camped or ganked early on I fall behind and either start feeding or lose a ton of cs (e.g. giving up first blood to jax).
Also Olaf is terrible at escaping ganks so I feel I have to play super defensive levels 2-3 which is normally when I want to be out-trading my opponent. I feel especially vulnerable when I don't have a ward, which I usually don't because I like doran shield + pot opening so much.
However late-game Olaf is just as good as he's ever been. Even when I lose lane I farm up and come back late-game and destroy the carries. I haven't really changed my core, I still think hydra/randuin's/SV is the perfect core for him.
Is there any way to come out of a losing lane without feeding and with respectable cs?
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Jungle him ala saint vicious or meteos. :D
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On October 08 2013 05:54 BlasiuS wrote: Been playing Olaf a ton since Wednesday, he's significantly different than pre-rework olaf.
His early-game is super weak. Even maxing E first I have trouble trading with heavy-hitting AD champs like Renekton/Riven/Garen (god I played against Garen so much this past week). I also have trouble out-sustaining champs like Aatrox/Irelia.
Then there's the fact that even in a favorable matchup if I get camped or ganked early on I fall behind and either start feeding or lose a ton of cs (e.g. giving up first blood to jax).
Also Olaf is terrible at escaping ganks so I feel I have to play super defensive levels 2-3 which is normally when I want to be out-trading my opponent. I feel especially vulnerable when I don't have a ward, which I usually don't because I like doran shield + pot opening so much.
However late-game Olaf is just as good as he's ever been. Even when I lose lane I farm up and come back late-game and destroy the carries. I haven't really changed my core, I still think hydra/randuin's/SV is the perfect core for him.
Is there any way to come out of a losing lane without feeding and with respectable cs?
Ask for camp?
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On October 08 2013 05:54 BlasiuS wrote: Been playing Olaf a ton since Wednesday, he's significantly different than pre-rework olaf.
His early-game is super weak. Even maxing E first I have trouble trading with heavy-hitting AD champs like Renekton/Riven/Garen (god I played against Garen so much this past week). I also have trouble out-sustaining champs like Aatrox/Irelia.
Then there's the fact that even in a favorable matchup if I get camped or ganked early on I fall behind and either start feeding or lose a ton of cs (e.g. giving up first blood to jax).
Also Olaf is terrible at escaping ganks so I feel I have to play super defensive levels 2-3 which is normally when I want to be out-trading my opponent. I feel especially vulnerable when I don't have a ward, which I usually don't because I like doran shield + pot opening so much.
However late-game Olaf is just as good as he's ever been. Even when I lose lane I farm up and come back late-game and destroy the carries. I haven't really changed my core, I still think hydra/randuin's/SV is the perfect core for him.
Is there any way to come out of a losing lane without feeding and with respectable cs?
I dont think you can max e in lane anymore vs alot of melee tops, he just is too weak for it. Maxing axe lets you shove and get the cs, and gives you more space to back off.. Id try agressively shoving the first 2 waves through constant autos and axe spam, making sure your wave hits his tower, then backing, get like 5 healthpots and a ward, and go from there. (with like dshield start).
Creep agro level 1 and 2 if you have creep advantage is usually enough to prevent an all in, and you should back before the double buff gank timing comes. (if you get level 2 ganked, good luck!. Ghost is sometimes enough to get out of it..)
Right now it feels like if your behind in lane you cant do anything but hope to chip them down with axes, so you always need to have the healthpots to stay high enough to be able to go in. I was buying ALOT of health pots every back for the first while.
Also, health quints are really strong to get you through the early game and come out better in early trades.
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I think this iteration of olaf isn't all that great in the jungle. If you don't get massively ahead, you aren't going to be building damage items, won't have the tankiness to ghost into an enemy team, and the minimum range axe thing really trashed his early game dueling EXCEPT in the single case where you're chasing somebody down.
Quick check of LoLking(now that it's finally up) shows roughly 1k picks in plat or higher games, and his winrate is still atrocious, in the very low 40's/high 30's for diamond.
I'll need a ton more games to maybe pass better judgement, but I feel like he still needs a lot of help. For starters, the passthrough thing on hit with axe would be great if it worked for everybody, including champs considering he now HAS to go through people to catch up with an axe, even if your opponent is standing still because of how hard he gets out traded without repeated axes.
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On October 09 2013 14:56 Amui wrote: I think this iteration of olaf isn't all that great in the jungle. If you don't get massively ahead, you aren't going to be building damage items, won't have the tankiness to ghost into an enemy team, and the minimum range axe thing really trashed his early game dueling EXCEPT in the single case where you're chasing somebody down.
Quick check of LoLking(now that it's finally up) shows roughly 1k picks in plat or higher games, and his winrate is still atrocious, in the very low 40's/high 30's for diamond.
I'll need a ton more games to maybe pass better judgement, but I feel like he still needs a lot of help. For starters, the passthrough thing on hit with axe would be great if it worked for everybody, including champs considering he now HAS to go through people to catch up with an axe, even if your opponent is standing still because of how hard he gets out traded without repeated axes. yeah in my limited experience I feel he's pretty terrible straight up - just that jungle seems to be a less bad place to put him. A big part what I'm experiencing is that basically the only area in which he seems to have received a net buff is in catching people from midrange - so his ganks have improved while everything else has somehow gotten even worse.
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I'm actually wondering what would happen if they put his ultimate onto a toggle, with like a 5-10s ICD(affected by CDR), scratch that. You can toggle ult on(2s minimum) and off, and for every second you leave it on, X seconds gets added to the CD(has a soft minimum of like 30/20/10)(reduced by CDR). Lasts up to N seconds, or until canceled.
That way if he got behind, he could toggle ult and farm with axes, and I don't think it's possible to get ahead with the current iteration of olaf without the other player fucking up.
Also lets jungle olaf clear a lot faster when needed, and lessens the mana burden of giving away the blue.
My wish is for Olaf to be viable again. One of the design goals of the rework was even to ensure that olaf came out stronger, because of how underpowered he was(is). I think they've missed the mark on that goal by a landslide, because at best, the strength of the old olaf vs this one is a wash. At worst, this one is even shittier, if that were at all possible.
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On October 09 2013 13:04 Dark_Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 05:54 BlasiuS wrote: Been playing Olaf a ton since Wednesday, he's significantly different than pre-rework olaf.
His early-game is super weak. Even maxing E first I have trouble trading with heavy-hitting AD champs like Renekton/Riven/Garen (god I played against Garen so much this past week). I also have trouble out-sustaining champs like Aatrox/Irelia.
Then there's the fact that even in a favorable matchup if I get camped or ganked early on I fall behind and either start feeding or lose a ton of cs (e.g. giving up first blood to jax).
Also Olaf is terrible at escaping ganks so I feel I have to play super defensive levels 2-3 which is normally when I want to be out-trading my opponent. I feel especially vulnerable when I don't have a ward, which I usually don't because I like doran shield + pot opening so much.
However late-game Olaf is just as good as he's ever been. Even when I lose lane I farm up and come back late-game and destroy the carries. I haven't really changed my core, I still think hydra/randuin's/SV is the perfect core for him.
Is there any way to come out of a losing lane without feeding and with respectable cs? Ask for camp?
I usually do, but noone wants to gank for olaf, he has no hard cc
edit: Renekton in particular is a nearly impossible lane for me, and he's incredibly popular at the moment.
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Just in case Smash ends up trolling here: Please, Please get rid of all these Attack Speed Steroids. They make no sense for Olaf...unless you think people are going toe to toe with him when he is ahead...which they dont.
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On October 10 2013 15:49 cLutZ wrote: Just in case Smash ends up trolling here: Please, Please get rid of all these Attack Speed Steroids. They make no sense for Olaf...unless you think people are going toe to toe with him when he is ahead...which they dont.
I think he'll wait a bit and see what buffs he has in store before reworking his kit again. They'd probably have to be rather massive ones to even begin to address his winrate(40% is absolutely abysmal). Urgot lost like 30% range on Q and 15% on E, and his ultimate now had range scaling(50/75/100%), and that brought him from like 48%? to his current 40%. It takes an absolutely massive nerf(s) to make one champion lose 50% more than they win.
I'm not asking to get olaf to 50% winrate, but getting at least to viable status(>47%) would be awesome.
One things for certain though, Olaf is at best equal with his pre-rework state.
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so sv randuin hydra wtf do you start doran shield pot and go randuin or sv depending on who you are vs and just farm to hydra after that?
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On October 10 2013 19:40 TomatoShark wrote: so sv randuin hydra wtf do you start doran shield pot and go randuin or sv depending on who you are vs and just farm to hydra after that? I'd imagine zephyr and boots of swiftness would be a good choice.
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id just get mercs on olaf seriously maybe trinity after all that or cape of the suns and ga . Wouldnt Botrk be better then hydra?
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On October 10 2013 20:13 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 19:40 TomatoShark wrote: so sv randuin hydra wtf do you start doran shield pot and go randuin or sv depending on who you are vs and just farm to hydra after that? I'd imagine zephyr and boots of swiftness would be a good choice. Zephyr was a good buy before when his W gave you AD. Now it's just way too much AS if you buy a zephyr IMO.
I did read a Riot post about how Olaf is in a good spot for balancing now and they are leaning towards buffing E slightly, increasing the AS on rank 1 W, and possibly reducing the min range Q just a small amount in the next couple patches.
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On October 10 2013 16:49 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 15:49 cLutZ wrote: Just in case Smash ends up trolling here: Please, Please get rid of all these Attack Speed Steroids. They make no sense for Olaf...unless you think people are going toe to toe with him when he is ahead...which they dont. I think he'll wait a bit and see what buffs he has in store before reworking his kit again. They'd probably have to be rather massive ones to even begin to address his winrate(40% is absolutely abysmal). Urgot lost like 30% range on Q and 15% on E, and his ultimate now had range scaling(50/75/100%), and that brought him from like 48%? to his current 40%. It takes an absolutely massive nerf(s) to make one champion lose 50% more than they win. I'm not asking to get olaf to 50% winrate, but getting at least to viable status(>47%) would be awesome. One things for certain though, Olaf is at best equal with his pre-rework state.
The problem is, his kit doesn't work together. Min range axe meanes to get max damage from it you need to keep running around to pick it up, but that means you lose damage from aa's from the massive AS sterioids he gets.
When your trying to run into a teamfight, you need some kind of defensive steroid to survive the incoming damage. Instead, the spell you pop that allows you to reach your target makes you take MORE damage.
His W and Q now work against each other, while before they worked with each other.
Like think about it this way - His old ult was awesome and exactly what he needed for teamfighting - a massive defensive steroid and the ability to reach his target. His ult, q, w, used to have synergy(arp + ad + vamp + phys damage skill), which is now removed, while his e and w had some small synergy with the spell vamp which is replaced with the aa reducing cd, which is garbage with how much movement abilities there are.
Just the way his spells interact with each other, and the tools he has for teamfighting, is just way way worse now. He really needs some kind of short duration massive defensive steroid to work in teamfights, which was removed from him.
I have no idea why they though that this kit would be better in any way. Its like taking a masterpiece of synergy and just randomly changing things for the sake of changing them and killing the champion in the process.
They should remove the axe minimum range, and instead add a minimum 1-2 second cooldown on it (can't reduce cd below that), and that would only make him feel less clunky to play, not really make him stronger... This version of Olaf will probably never be good at teamfighting without massively overinflated numbers
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On October 11 2013 01:09 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2013 20:13 saddaromma wrote:On October 10 2013 19:40 TomatoShark wrote: so sv randuin hydra wtf do you start doran shield pot and go randuin or sv depending on who you are vs and just farm to hydra after that? I'd imagine zephyr and boots of swiftness would be a good choice. Zephyr was a good buy before when his W gave you AD. Now it's just way too much AS if you buy a zephyr IMO. I did read a Riot post about how Olaf is in a good spot for balancing now and they are leaning towards buffing E slightly, increasing the AS on rank 1 W, and possibly reducing the min range Q just a small amount in the next couple patches.
This seems like a good change, since Olaf's main problem seems to be getting through early-game without feeding or hugging tower.
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Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now? If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag. Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right.
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On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote: Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now? If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag. Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right.
Champion with no movespeed increase, no bonus tenactiy, no real bonus defenses, one weak skillshot slow, is going to reach his target in a teamfight. Right. Your funny. Im pretty sure any character with any movement ability can just laugh at olaf if he doesn't have ghost+ ult up.
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On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote: Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now? If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag. Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right. How do you get rid of that though? Is bonus AS a coherent addition to Olaf's kit? I mean he has so much Bonus AS that Botrk doesn't even make sense on him from an efficiency POV (its just kinda OP vs. who he is facing in lane). I would say, Rid him of bonus AS on W (Passive is more than enough) and give W meaningful bonuses akin to Raise Morale.
On October 11 2013 04:36 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote: Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now? If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag. Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right. Champion with no movespeed increase, no bonus tenactiy, no real bonus defenses, one weak skillshot slow, is going to reach his target in a teamfight. Right. Your funny. Im pretty sure any character with any movement ability can just laugh at olaf if he doesn't have ghost+ ult up.
This really seems to be the problem. Olaf is balanced in an imaginary world where Ghost has a 60 Second Cooldown.
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On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote: Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now? If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag. Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right.
I have misgivings about the state of his ult right now, but that's a complex issue.
The minimum range on his Q, while it works for jungling(awkward, but it works), it's absolutely trash for laning against people. You win against people who don't understand how it works and try to run after getting slowed. But if you just go fight olaf when his axe is thrown, he's fucked. Just body block, force him to fight you and what the fuck does olaf do. He can't throw an axe to disengage, doesn't have the sustained DPS to fight(W doesn't even come close to matching old axe spam). Like at minimum I'd like to see Olaf be able to phase through units that have been hit by axe so you don't get fucked by pathing AI while trying to make your way to the axe while keeping up dps.
Also you have to remember that prenerf olaf(the one that was at like 47% soloq winrate) had a 10/20/30 arpen on his ultimate. That's how much you have to make up in damage just to get him to a useful state.
This really seems to be the problem. Olaf is balanced in an imaginary world where Ghost has a 60 Second Cooldown Well if Olaf had old garen W(the MS+defense), and maybe the lifesteal is 1/2 effectiveness passive, that'd solve a whole bunch of problems right there.
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On October 11 2013 04:36 dae wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote: Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now? If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag. Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right. Champion with no movespeed increase, no bonus tenactiy, no real bonus defenses, one weak skillshot slow, is going to reach his target in a teamfight. Right. Your funny. Im pretty sure any character with any movement ability can just laugh at olaf if he doesn't have ghost+ ult up.
Yeah, but burning CC as a dude who built tanky items is good. I dunno, if you just dont press R and you "dont reach a target" then why the hell are your AD and Mid Lander not just trucking kids because you are being focused with your defensive steroid still up.
I keep hearing people say that Olaf NEEDS to build damage items to be successful or do the same amount of damage he used to do in his old iteration... why does he need to do the same amount of damage? Last I checked even without a damage item Olaf still trucks AD carries if he gets to touch them in a teamfight with any decent amount of armor and tanky things without any damage items at all.You dont need to do the same amount of damage as before, you just need to zone/kill an AD carry.
If your two item timing is Hydra/BtoRK and Randuins of course running through and killing an AD carry not going to work; Of course you'll never reach a target, and the whole time you're running at things you just kind of die and do no damage. But what I dont understand is why not just have like Warmogs+Randuins or Sunfire+Randuins instead and then it is win-win for you as Olaf; either you are tanky as shit and they focus you and blow you up while your AD and AP carry/assassin truck them (ie you should win that fight because you have huge HP and huge resist steroids) or they ignore you, and you just Press R and kill their AD carry for free because with the 200 armor they cannot duel you at all. Scenario 1 they focus the wrong target and lose. Scenario 2 they let the teamfight become a 4v3 for you team because Olaf can 1v2 a support+ad fairly easily assuming he built tanky... unless support is like Janna, but why the fuck would you pick a melee tank into Janna anyway? Would you pick Udyr into Janna? No? Then why pick Olaf into Janna? Thats picking a champion in a matchup they doomed to fail.
Your goal as Olaf is to zone, take damage, and be obnoxious in general in fights. Smash is a damn good player and did a great job with Olaf in my opinion. People playing him like oldschool Olaf in fights popping ult+ghost at the start of the fight while having one damage item and suddenly no ult resists are going to pop. Thats true. That style does not work anymore. That being said, you can play it differently.
I actually really like the Olaf changes, I think Smash did a great job. His ult is no longer "LOLOLOL PRESS R YOU DONT DO NOTHING" but now has some pretty cool mind-games and outplay options with it.
I'm not a great player, and I understand that, but I also have had a ton of success with new Olaf.
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On October 11 2013 04:58 iCanada wrote: Yeah, but burning CC as a dude who built tanky items is good. I dunno, if you just dont press R and you "dont reach a target" then why the hell are your AD and Mid Lander not just trucking kids because you are being focused with your defensive steroid still up.
Your goal as Olaf is to zone, take damage, and be obnoxious in general in fights. Smash is a damn good player and did a great job with Olaf in my opinion. People playing him like oldschool Olaf in fights popping ult+ghost at the start of the fight while having one damage item and suddenly no ult resists are going to pop. Thats true. That style does not work anymore. That being said, you can play it differently.
If you want to do those things why are you not playing Shen/Malphite/Renekton/ZAC who all are just as good at "Absorbing CC and Damage while being annoying" and bring either more CC, more damage, or both while being built full tank?
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I think its pretty clear that old olaf is much, much more synergistic than the remake. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, but in this case, I think it is, because it detracts from the core, compelling gameplay of olaf, which is awesome axes. The remake seems focused on this extremely narrow, extremely spike experience in which you're low and heal like crazy with autos. This is something I like too, but A) aatrox and ww are both better suited to delivering on that and B) axes are a way better focus. I think smash completely underestimated how cool and fun they are to throw.
Additionally, attack speed bonuses on a guy with no built in movement bonus and weak cc is like.. Wtf.
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Frozen Mallet anyone? Solves his stickiness problems fairly well. SotAG is almost a perfect set of stats for Olaf in lane. Bring MS quints. W-Q doesn't synergies anymore but E-W does! Once you close the gap on them R+E+W+Frozen Mallet=dead carry in 6 seconds or less.
I mean I still think Olaf is weak right now but I don't think its his kit. He just needs a numbers adjustment with slight buffs to each of his skills.
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On October 11 2013 04:58 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2013 04:36 dae wrote:On October 11 2013 04:20 Alaric wrote: Previous Olaf ult was "I reach you", current Olaf ult is "I fight you", is it that hard? No, you don't fucking pop your ult right at the start of a fight. How do you think people did when his ult used to only grant immunity, but not remove cc like it does now? If you pop your ult at the same time as Ghost when you're a whole screen away then you deserve to get mauled on your way to your target. It's totally worth it to eat a cc while your team initiates if you can still get into the fight afterwards and then burn your ult and use the massive AD steroid to kill stuff.
Also the way the min. range on Q works means that if your target is trying to run from you (and has already been slowed) you can very easily chain slow it because you pick up the axe almost immediatly if you run toward it right after the cast (which you should in a chase), so you can hopefully chain casts before they can zigzag. Yes, if your target stands still, you can't throw your axe at your feet, pick it up immediatly, then throw it again while weaving a single auto in-between each axe. Guess what? That's the point. Smash said over and over and over again since the very first thread where ideas about Olaf were publicly discussed that one of the goals of the changes was to get rid of the chain axe in close combat.
The problem is that it's hard for Olaf to stick to the target after he's reached it once/slowed it, to make use of his AS. If you can get rid of that, then his dps is pretty high as long as you have an AD-based offensive item and manage W's cooldown right. Champion with no movespeed increase, no bonus tenactiy, no real bonus defenses, one weak skillshot slow, is going to reach his target in a teamfight. Right. Your funny. Im pretty sure any character with any movement ability can just laugh at olaf if he doesn't have ghost+ ult up. Yeah, but burning CC as a dude who built tanky items is good. I dunno, if you just dont press R and you "dont reach a target" then why the hell are your AD and Mid Lander not just trucking kids because you are being focused with your defensive steroid still up. I keep hearing people say that Olaf NEEDS to build damage items to be successful or do the same amount of damage he used to do in his old iteration... why does he need to do the same amount of damage? Last I checked even without a damage item Olaf still trucks AD carries if he gets to touch them in a teamfight with any decent amount of armor and tanky things without any damage items at all.You dont need to do the same amount of damage as before, you just need to zone/kill an AD carry. If your two item timing is Hydra/BtoRK and Randuins of course running through and killing an AD carry not going to work; Of course you'll never reach a target, and the whole time you're running at things you just kind of die and do no damage. But what I dont understand is why not just have like Warmogs+Randuins or Sunfire+Randuins instead and then it is win-win for you as Olaf; either you are tanky as shit and they focus you and blow you up while your AD and AP carry/assassin truck them (ie you should win that fight because you have huge HP and huge resist steroids) or they ignore you, and you just Press R and kill their AD carry for free because with the 200 armor they cannot duel you at all. Scenario 1 they focus the wrong target and lose. Scenario 2 they let the teamfight become a 4v3 for you team because Olaf can 1v2 a support+ad fairly easily assuming he built tanky... unless support is like Janna, but why the fuck would you pick a melee tank into Janna anyway? Would you pick Udyr into Janna? No? Then why pick Olaf into Janna? Thats picking a champion in a matchup they doomed to fail. Your goal as Olaf is to zone, take damage, and be obnoxious in general in fights. Smash is a damn good player and did a great job with Olaf in my opinion. People playing him like oldschool Olaf in fights popping ult+ghost at the start of the fight while having one damage item and suddenly no ult resists are going to pop. Thats true. That style does not work anymore. That being said, you can play it differently. I actually really like the Olaf changes, I think Smash did a great job. His ult is no longer "LOLOLOL PRESS R YOU DONT DO NOTHING" but now has some pretty cool mind-games and outplay options with it. I'm not a great player, and I understand that, but I also have had a ton of success with new Olaf.
Few things.
First off, against any reasonably good team, you will not be reaching an adc ever without help from teammates, or using Ghost and R together to reach them. Well executed stutterstep kiting, as well as the multiple of cc abilities and movement abilities the adc and their team has will prevent this.
Secondly, Olaf is not a tanky champion in his current iteration. The bonus 10/20/30 armor/mr from his ult is not enough for him to be considered a tank. He needs to be building pure tank, while not being behind in gold, to effectively work as a tank right now. His ult gives him the only tanky stats he gets from his kit, and his e makes him less tanky. (Lifesteal is not a stat that helps in teamfights for tankiness outside of fringe cases)
Thirdly, if you get behind on Olaf currently, your useless. You will die the instant the other team directs any damage towards you at all. You simply cannot close the gap with anyone without being chunked to the point where you cannot stand and fight anymore.
Fourthly, hes a bruiser without a gapcloser. There are very few if any that are currently viable(nasus because of wither, singed b/c of how tanky he is, his slow, and his MS buff), due to the above problems of it being impossible to not be kited to death, and take too much damage gapclosing.
Fifthly, Olaf gets way worse as you play against better players. Stuff like moving in such a way to abuse the minimum range of axe, stutter step kiting properly making it very hard to reach them, using their gapopeners and cc properly to screw you, and abusing your terrible early laning phase, meaning its quite likely you will get behind, and therefor become useless.
Also, any champion with disengage makes Olaf's life a hell in teamfights.
All of the above makes me feel like I am handicapping my team if I pick Olaf currently (in D1), and why I think he is just not viable at all currently.
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This isn't necessarily Olaf related, but I wish they would release an iteration of the health/movespeed item from aram on SR (obviously it would need some changes and need a late game upgrade). there are precious few viable champions without dashes these days, so it seems like the ms active item would help a little bit to even the field.
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On October 11 2013 12:26 petered wrote: This isn't necessarily Olaf related, but I wish they would release an iteration of the health/movespeed item from aram on SR (obviously it would need some changes and need a late game upgrade). there are precious few viable champions without dashes these days, so it seems like the ms active item would help a little bit to even the field.
I love going ghostblade + shurelia + that item on Olaf in arams. Pop all three items, ult and ghost, pretty silly :D
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But Olaf is not meant to just fucking run at people and reach them without chaining axes, which takes too long to do to initiate a fight. Oo Just because Jax happens to be manly enough to initiate and that Irelia can survive diving in doesn't mean it's their role. They're "fighters", according to Riot, which usually means "the guys who join a fight initiated by others and run amok", not "the guys who go in first and initiate".
Also BotRK is a silly item by itself, it's not any good with Olaf in particular. You're better off building AD/Lifesteal/ArPen if you want damage. If you simply rush BotRK and Triforce like a bunch of people do then you deserved to get destroyed while you try to join a fight. Which also means that his 1-item timing isn't as strong as others, yeah.
And I don't deny that he's in a bad spot currently, or that he has shit base armour (good HP, AD and top AS though), I'm just saying that pushing him toward AS rather than axespam isn't necessarily a bad thing and can be made to work, assuming he gets some tweaks to his current self. I think Riot expressed that they intended him to be able to fight with the frontline, then ult and go crazy on the squishy carries when he sees an opening. He's not a diver, it's more about being tanky enough (and having 1v1 power for the splitpush) to stay in the thick until said openings appear.
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On October 11 2013 19:16 Alaric wrote: I think Riot expressed that they intended him to be able to fight with the frontline, then ult and go crazy on the squishy carries when he sees an opening. He's not a diver, it's more about being tanky enough (and having 1v1 power for the splitpush) to stay in the thick until said openings appear.
The problem is the frontline just either: A: Ignores Olaf and olaf cant keep up as they dive while having aoe cc going or B: Kills olaf with a bit of attention from their backline since olaf is so squishy, and has no escapes and no way to do anything when to low to go back into the fight.
I honestly think your image how teamfights currently get carried out at higher levels is just wrong, as just the positioning and damage focus is way different.. teams can kill/chunk olaf if hes in front without commiting much and still being safe from olafs team, and if olaf isn't in front, hes kinda useless.
AS based melee carries without gapclosers just don't work in the current League of Legends.
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Reading you guys it now really feels like olaf is a weaker version of Mundo...
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On October 12 2013 02:40 Anakko wrote: Reading you guys it now really feels like olaf is a weaker version of Mundo... Mundo's probably better imo. He has a built in speed boost, insane survivability, and he gets vast amounts of tenacity which makes him very hard to peel.
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What if you got phage and fmallet?
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On October 11 2013 19:16 Alaric wrote: I think Riot expressed that they intended him to be able to fight with the frontline, then ult and go crazy on the squishy carries when he sees an opening. He's not a diver, it's more about being tanky enough (and having 1v1 power for the splitpush) to stay in the thick until said openings appear.
What character in the game does that?
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is it just me or this guy's Q manacost kind of ridiculous?
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Depends on how much you spam it. W cost is super low and E and R cost no mana, so it's not really aggravating.
And stop saying stuff like "yeah they can just focus Olaf if he's in front because he won't reach them", well sure, Olaf's not Shyvana or Singed or Cho'Gath, he's not an initiator, he's not the guy who will walk in front of all the enemy poke and wonder why they get kited, geez.
If you want Olaf to do that/pick him in a comp that'll require that from him, then the problem's with your decision, not with the champ. You don't ask Udyr to do that. When you pick Olaf, either you splitpush, or you've got an initiator, be it Malphite, Sejuani, Jarvan, Amumu, Zac, Aatrox, Shyvana, whatever. You just have someone on your team who will get it an initiate a fight, so you're not the only frontliner.
And you're complaining about Olaf dying too fast, but ffs stop rushing Triforce or BotRK on him and try to fight then, that's just dumb. Olaf is about sustain (be it damage or healing), he doesn't have Jax's "burst mitigation" (E and R active) or Irelia's burst healing on her ult, his 1-item timing isn't as strong as them and on top of that it's at a point where burst-oriented champs start hitting their power peak, so no, Olaf isn't as good for the first drake fight than say Renekton, Irelia or Jax. So what do you do? You don't capitalise on that timing. You don't try to rush offense then manfight people.
Just try to pair him with an initiator and build more defenses, and not pop your ult as soon as the teamfight start. And please note how it's different from running 4 squishies alongside him, rush a full offensive item first and immediatly seek a teamfight, asking him to initiate it with ghost and his face.
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yah no 75 mana when he only has 1k at level 18 is a LOT of mana. I think he ought to have more mana per level so he can use them to push more realistically in the mid-late game, it just hits his wave clear really hard without a sheen or a shroud or something. It didn't hurt old olaf so badly because his primary role when he was good was to just trash shit in teamfights, but this iteration doesn't seem to be so much about that so I consider it a serious issue.
I largely agree with your other points. I'm finding the most important habit to get into with this guy is just not pressing R during teamfights unless you end up dueling somebody, which basically never happens. Even if you need to leave, but get CCed, it's frequently not worth because the loss of resists makes it such a bad escape option.
Currently in the jungle I don't see how you have any option but to build straight tank.
In top lane what I'm trying now is rushing hydra, which I read smash recommending, and maxing W, then going straight tank. I don't think maxing Q or E is realistic at all at this point, you are just going to oom yourself or do nothing, and level one W is so bad it's basically a blank skill unless you rank it up, so this ought to maximize the power of your point distribution. It seems noticeably better than everything else I've tried so far.
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On October 13 2013 21:44 Alaric wrote: Depends on how much you spam it. W cost is super low and E and R cost no mana, so it's not really aggravating.
And stop saying stuff like "yeah they can just focus Olaf if he's in front because he won't reach them", well sure, Olaf's not Shyvana or Singed or Cho'Gath, he's not an initiator, he's not the guy who will walk in front of all the enemy poke and wonder why they get kited, geez.
If you want Olaf to do that/pick him in a comp that'll require that from him, then the problem's with your decision, not with the champ. You don't ask Udyr to do that. When you pick Olaf, either you splitpush, or you've got an initiator, be it Malphite, Sejuani, Jarvan, Amumu, Zac, Aatrox, Shyvana, whatever. You just have someone on your team who will get it an initiate a fight, so you're not the only frontliner.
And you're complaining about Olaf dying too fast, but ffs stop rushing Triforce or BotRK on him and try to fight then, that's just dumb. Olaf is about sustain (be it damage or healing), he doesn't have Jax's "burst mitigation" (E and R active) or Irelia's burst healing on her ult, his 1-item timing isn't as strong as them and on top of that it's at a point where burst-oriented champs start hitting their power peak, so no, Olaf isn't as good for the first drake fight than say Renekton, Irelia or Jax. So what do you do? You don't capitalise on that timing. You don't try to rush offense then manfight people.
Just try to pair him with an initiator and build more defenses, and not pop your ult as soon as the teamfight start. And please note how it's different from running 4 squishies alongside him, rush a full offensive item first and immediatly seek a teamfight, asking him to initiate it with ghost and his face.
It seems to me you are not making much of a case for me to pick Olaf.
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currently on PBE olaf's Q has changed from 55/60/65/70/75 mana to a flat 60 at all levels, that should help with this mana pool
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Been trying to make olaf work on my smurf, and idk, he just feels like he doesn't do anything well right now. Loses a lot of lanes really hard. Against anybody who knows how to play against it(read: play a bruiser and don't run), he just gets rolled so hard in trades. Nowhere close to enough mana to harass a bruiser to death(like literally, I think you could expend a whole mana bar on a renekton post giants belt and still not come close).
Only lanes he wins are against squishies who are have to run if he lands an axe, and even then only if you land axes consistently. has atrocious trading against almost every top who doesn't have to run when he lands an axe.
And then teamfighting. A lot of the time you want to ult to get off CC. But almost every game I've played, when you get cc'd, you also get focused(few examples aside).
Also it feels like unless the guy is running from you in a fight, you can axe at most 2 times.
Like he's not intrinsically tanky at any point in the game because his ult doesn't grant enough stats passively(and you lose it anyways if you have to pop it to go in. Shyv gets 10/10 more in dragon, and she has both a gap closer and an almost permanent speed boost.
And then you pop it to break CC and just explode.
I think smash successfully made his ultimate into a catch-22 in teamfights. Good in an isolated duel, but the moment it comes to teamfighting it's worthless as fuck because at the end of the day, I don't know what smash wants you to build to teamfight successfully. You want defenses because you have zero gap closing capability, you want damage because you don't do squat without it(the scenario where you manage to reach a carry without blowing ulti already really doesn't happen all that often), and if you build both, you'll fail at everything.
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Ugh, I've been trying to make Olaf work at both toplane and jungle...not successful. At toplane, he matches poorly against too many champs, especially Shen, Vladimir, and Renekton. Plus, he's a sustained trader (and a weak one at that) rather than a burst trader after the rework, which kinda sucks.
But you need to toplane with him to get necessary levels of farm! Olaf needs at least Hydra (splitpushing) or Bork (dueling/fighting) alongside SV/Randuin to be remotely relevant, and you won't be getting that kind of farm out of the jungle.
And yeah, as soon as you ult, you give up all innate tankiness and explode like a pinata
I can see why Olaf has a 38% winrate in Diamond, he truly is one of the weakest, if not THE weakest, champion Riot has ever released.
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i see that you never played eve pre rework
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to be fair when he was considered the most broken champ in game he had only 46% winrate
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On October 16 2013 21:15 kongoline wrote: to be fair when he was considered the most broken champ in game he had only 46% winrate
Only because non-pros are dumb as shit about his itemization.
Apparently building tank/cdr on olaf was a non-existent concept
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To be fair, Riot is at fault to some extent. They make a champion that scales off HP and is supposed to build damage, so people think "let's build HP and some damage!" It really wasn't intuitive to build Olaf as if he was a Support Tank (Shurelia's, Frozen Heart, etc), even if that became the most effective build on him.
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anyone here still playing this dude
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No. He is no fun in teamfights, which is what I like doing most :-/
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I've been trying to use him since the latest buffs but he appears to be atrocious at just about everything still. He DOES have good sustain, and he can harass to get an advantage with his Q(but this often pushes) and he can assist a gank pretty well with his slow. But outside of those 3 things he's just not good enough, IMO. He's not bullying enough to win a lot of lanes early, he doesn't scale well enough to be worth it, and he gets popped in a teamfight in to time.
Of course, I'm not too experienced with him, so I'd like to hear what others think.
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The new Olaf is just atrocious.
All skill have been nerfed, probably W is about the same - but does not stack so well with his innate passive.
Generally I would accept the changes to Q or W.. but E and R changes are plain unacceptable. E -> has lager cooldown and much lower damage, I think with the %ad it gets you need at least +200 dmg to get to the original level... makes no sense to rush 5th level E and abuse opponents, to make it a worthwhile change you would need like 5 bloodthirsters in inventory +40% cd reduction...
R -> not only the passive/active swich does not make any sense, they also removed the very important armor penetration. If you now get stunned or rush into combat the new red color of Olaf's ulti means focus and kill me fast!
Without the armor penetration and E nerfed he has no special features that would attract me to chose him over say Tryndamere, Yi or Aatrox - who are special in their way but plain dominate Olaf's weak abilities.
R.I.P. Olaf
Official patch comment: We were overly cautious with our initial rework changes for Olaf, which left him undertuned, but not Old and Busted. However, now that we’ve addressed some of his old core issues, we feel like we can be more aggressive with tweaking his kit balance. Give me a break riot, you screw him up!
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Yeah, I'm not touching this dude over other, better AD tops unless he gets more buffs. The problem is that his ult is inherently a problem to balance around.
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No, the problem is they THINK his ult is a problem. The problem is his kit is all attack speed steroids, which are pretty MEH on a Melle Character with no gap closer and a slow instead of a snare.
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On November 05 2013 00:00 LastWish wrote: E -> has lager cooldown and much lower damage, I think with the %ad it gets you need at least +200 dmg to get to the original level... makes no sense to rush 5th level E and abuse opponents, to make it a worthwhile change you would need like 5 bloodthirsters in inventory +40% cd reduction... Difference isn't that big, and the uptime is around the same assuming you auto (especially as you get CDR). There's pretty much no difference at higher levels now, especially if you've got AD on one item (or your ult on), but it's nerfed in lane, which was the point: less free "walk up to you, E and walk away", more interaction.
R -> not only the passive/active swich does not make any sense, they also removed the very important armor penetration. If you now get stunned or rush into combat the new red color of Olaf's ulti means focus and kill me fast! That's just grapping at straws. Olaf's ult always had that distinct sound (and he has a different pose) if you paid a little attention. The point is that you shouldn't use the ult as "I'll spend 3 seconds running at you then the remaining 2 to burst you" but "I've taken less damage getting in range thanks to the resistances, now I'll stay here by being unpeelable for 6s while I hammer you".
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On November 05 2013 04:05 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2013 00:00 LastWish wrote: E -> has lager cooldown and much lower damage, I think with the %ad it gets you need at least +200 dmg to get to the original level... makes no sense to rush 5th level E and abuse opponents, to make it a worthwhile change you would need like 5 bloodthirsters in inventory +40% cd reduction... Difference isn't that big, and the uptime is around the same assuming you auto (especially as you get CDR). There's pretty much no difference at higher levels now, especially if you've got AD on one item (or your ult on), but it's nerfed in lane, which was the point: less free "walk up to you, E and walk away", more interaction. Show nested quote +R -> not only the passive/active swich does not make any sense, they also removed the very important armor penetration. If you now get stunned or rush into combat the new red color of Olaf's ulti means focus and kill me fast! That's just grapping at straws. Olaf's ult always had that distinct sound (and he has a different pose) if you paid a little attention. The point is that you shouldn't use the ult as "I'll spend 3 seconds running at you then the remaining 2 to burst you" but "I've taken less damage getting in range thanks to the resistances, now I'll stay here by being unpeelable for 6s while I hammer you".
But you are assuming autoattacks...Plus you are assuming you are somehow getting to your target without using your ultimate. The only chance of that, is hitting 2 long range axes + picking them both up.
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Yeah I mean Nasus never ever ever ever gets into melee range when people have Cleanse, fucking shit champion.
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Why does Nasus need to be in melle range of a squishy to be relevant? He doesn't.
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So Olaf's been seeing some tournament play as a Jax counter on Top Lane, and he seems to be doing quite well. I'm glad to see that he's viable again.
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On November 05 2013 10:36 HughMyron wrote: So Olaf's been seeing some tournament play as a Jax counter on Top Lane, and he seems to be doing quite well. I'm glad to see that he's viable again. link? Or at least where did you see him? :D
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On November 05 2013 06:12 cLutZ wrote: Why does Nasus need to be in melle range of a squishy to be relevant? He doesn't. Gee, I dunno, maybe to do anything else than reduce people's armour for his pals or Whither somebody (notice how I mentioned a Cleanse)? You'd see Nasus support if he only needed to drop Spirit Fire and Whither to be relevant, without having to deal any damage.
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Is there any other ulti that is double-edged? I mean gaining something but losing something at the same time.
I don't say it's necessary bad to design a ulti like this but in this case I'm strictly against it.
On November 05 2013 04:05 Alaric wrote: Difference isn't that big, and the uptime is around the same assuming you auto (especially as you get CDR). There's pretty much no difference at higher levels now, especially if you've got AD on one item (or your ult on), but it's nerfed in lane, which was the point: less free "walk up to you, E and walk away", more interaction.
Well I'd be more ok with it if it was flat damage no % gain. That way it would both reward active play as auto reduces it's CD and still be a viable tactic to rush lvl 5 reckless to abuse your opponent. Early -100 true damage is a nerf too much.
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Olaf to be Nasus tanky, has to have more tank items than Nasus. To do Nasus Damage (Nasus is mostly AOE in teamfights though), he needs damage items. But, I am going to experiment with him as a Jax counter, because thats what he historically was. And since he is a good splitpusher, and now Jax's build the fairly niche TF>BotRK whiche is mostly only good for splitpush and cleanup you get a chance to use Olaf's kit to the fullest.
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On November 06 2013 02:47 cLutZ wrote: Olaf to be Nasus tanky, has to have more tank items than Nasus. To do Nasus Damage (Nasus is mostly AOE in teamfights though), he needs damage items. But, I am going to experiment with him as a Jax counter, because thats what he historically was. And since he is a good splitpusher, and now Jax's build the fairly niche TF>BotRK whiche is mostly only good for splitpush and cleanup you get a chance to use Olaf's kit to the fullest. This doesn't make any sense. Nasus gets HP when his ult is active but Olaf get free resists on his ults passive. Nasus can't stick to any carry who brought cleanse while Olaf can at least pick up his ax and toss it again.
Its hard to compare their damage since Olaf can't be peeled while Nasus can be. Nasus reduces armor while Olaf does True damage. Nasus does greater AoE damage but Olaf is going to be a better anti-carry until Nasus can farm up his Q.
They are very similar in that they both rely on Ghost instead of Flash which looks like its getting a buff (more sprint speed early then trails off to normal ghost speed and shorter cool down) so good news for both of them.
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On November 06 2013 05:17 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2013 02:47 cLutZ wrote: Olaf to be Nasus tanky, has to have more tank items than Nasus. To do Nasus Damage (Nasus is mostly AOE in teamfights though), he needs damage items. But, I am going to experiment with him as a Jax counter, because thats what he historically was. And since he is a good splitpusher, and now Jax's build the fairly niche TF>BotRK whiche is mostly only good for splitpush and cleanup you get a chance to use Olaf's kit to the fullest. This doesn't make any sense. Nasus gets HP when his ult is active but Olaf get free resists on his ults passive. Nasus can't stick to any carry who brought cleanse while Olaf can at least pick up his ax and toss it again. Its hard to compare their damage since Olaf can't be peeled while Nasus can be. Nasus reduces armor while Olaf does True damage. Nasus does greater AoE damage but Olaf is going to be a better anti-carry until Nasus can farm up his Q. They are very similar in that they both rely on Ghost instead of Flash which looks like its getting a buff (more sprint speed early then trails off to normal ghost speed and shorter cool down) so good news for both of them. what would really help olaf would be a guardians horn type item in summoners rift..
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Went against a (bad) Vlad, was blind pick so I had an AD/lifesteal page while he had MPen/mp5/AP/AP. I didn't know what to start so I just went boots+2 pots+ward, which wasn't enough sustain to deal with his constant auto harass and Q spam (he did his best to push the wave while I avoided fighting him at level 1-2 because dshield > boots, and after then his ability to shove is dumb as fuck as soon as he gets E while I'll just run oom if I use Undertow).
I died because I was dumb and refused to miss 1.5-2 creep waves instead (since I was permanently shoved under tower), but I farmed up a negatron so I just killed him as soon as I went back to lane, burning my ignite. After that Vlad wasn't able to 1v1 me anymore most of the time (although one time Sejuani ganked, I expected it with the obvious and terrible bait but two of my minions blocked my pathing for ~half my ult's worth and I died, zzz pathing). So I wasn't exactly in danger.
It was stupidly dumb how with just revolver (~70 AP total) he was able to heal from 30->100 in a single creep wave however, while Undertow was on coldown, and it also meant I had to pretty much constantly fight him or pressure an all-in to prevent him from doing his trade -> heal to full on a few minions -> repeat. Can't dive him w/o ignite or when pool is up so I can't push (he won't let me attack the tower and clears fast anyway), and to deal damage to him I have to keep him permaslowed and abuse E, which forces me to chase him off the wave for some time (eg. distance), making me lose farm (and exp, although he misses some too) every time. I have to pick up the axe then run back to farm some because if I let Undertow on cooldown he'll just follow me and sustain back to almost full in the meantime.
TL;DR: - Which opener against Vlad? Is dshield worth it since he's (supposedly) bad at harassing early game? - Lifesteal or MR quints? Having some sustain without burning W isn't that bad, but reducing his damage would make me win trades harder with E. - Have to significantly wound him every trade or it won't stick. Can't leave Undertow on cd or it's his cue for free sustain. Is there another way to trade with him than hit Q -> chase with autos and Es, far from the wave (eg. miss farm but he can't sustain as much), and turn back when exposed to ganks/close to his tower, making sure to pick up the axe on the way?
I don't mean it as a QQ post, dude was really bad and after I completed Cowl I trucked him, plus I know it's supposed to be a rather favourable match-up for Olaf. But Vlad's mindless gameplay really annoys me so I'm trying to find if there are better ways for me to deal with him thn what I did, because albeit I won't start boots the next time my opponent'll prob have armour runes and won't be as bad.
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I would start doran's shield against anyone who isn't an AD caster (cloth+5 in that case).
Against Vlad I would max Q:
At ranks 1-2 undertow has a shorter cooldown than transfusion even if you don't pick it up but try to avoid trading Qs with vlad because you will fall behind and spend mana. When he Qs a minion then hit him with undertow. Undertow has no damage penalty for going through minions and this will help push vlad under tower early which I think you should do as long as you know where the enemy jungler is.
Once you have enough gold for negatron cloak (wards and boots also help) shove the wave and base. From rank 3 and beyond his Q has a shorter cooldown so I wouldn't trade with it without going in, picking up your ax and trying to force him to pool. Anytime you can hit him with E you'll be ahead since Olaf's E is always going to be a better health trade than Vlads E.
At level 9 your Q still has a shorter cooldown as long as you pick it up. If you have a negatron and boots its easy to go all-in and force him to pool. Back off when he pools then rinse/repeat. Save your ult for when his pool is on cooldown because you want to maximize your ults damage.
I don't have a lot of experience in this specific matchup but that's how I would play it.
I'm not rich when it comes to runes. I run Armor reds, Armor yellows, Scaling MR blues, and Move speed quints on Olaf. But a more ideal rune page would probably have AD reds and Flat MR blues in this matchup. I wouldn't run life steal quints personally.
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Ya, 't'was a blind so I defaulted to them, not knowing what I'd go up against. I felt like I was fine maxing E because with Q being enough to reach him (and him pushing, thus giving me more room/time to chase) even at level 1 I'd easily get 2 Es while chasing him. On the other hand he really didn't want to pool most of the time, so I guess a better player wouldn't let me chase him on half the lane.
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I don't like running lifesteal on olaf since he already has built-in lifesteal. If you need more sustain get doran blades. MR quints are good IMO but not necessary as you are generally stronger than vlad. I run AD quints myself to increase Q damage. If you have an extra rune page though, make one that uses flat MR blues instead of scaling, they help quite a bit vs. vlad.
The opener was not very good though. I strongly recommend either flask + 3 pot for axe spam, or if you don't want to spam axes then doran shield pot is best. All vlad wants to do early game is auto you in between Qs. Dshield helps tremendously against that. Don't forget to take block mastery.
Here's how I trade with vlad:
1. pretend like i'm scared until I land a long-range Q. 2. run straight at his face. 3. auto + E the shit out of him. 4. pick up axe, hit him again immediately. 5. repeat #2 - 4 until vlad runs under tower. 6. retreat through top lane bushes so vlad can't Q me all the way back to the minions.
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I don't know what this new Olaf is all about anymore. Clearly he has good brawling power (since like his whole kit is now AA steroids), and with the Axe Buff he actually can use it sometimes now.
Still, the Ult seems very non-intuitive, and if I miss axes (out of the jungle or in teamfights) I feel pretty marginalized. Its like the entire kit is built on chaining axes, but they seemed to intentionally de-emphasize the axe in the rework in favor of autos. I don't see how this iteration is going to work very well unless his steroids are as ridiculous as they are right now.
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If you can hit his axes (which isn't that hard tbh) he's a good jungler/ganker. Being able to chase people down with his ult is really strong too.
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You hit axes to reach people and catch up to them if they somehow disengage, but once you're in there you still truck with autos+E.
I'm trying too hard to be a juggernaut in my games I feel. Starting sunfire cape makes you very strong (Tabi+Sunfire still beats most auto-attackers and a bunch of pure physical damage dealers), however I know I'll also need SV at some point for CDR+MR, and if they have armour-shredding abilities I'll probably have to build some more armour following up. What happens is that I tend to be able to tank at least two people, but starting with 3 I die before I can kill anyone (even a squishy) so I rely a bunch on my team to be able to win the 4v2-3 (+AoE) while I do my thing of zoning half the enemy team.
It was obvious from the changes that 0 offensive items Olaf was weaker than before, but it really makes itself felt. I still have some trouble farming while getting used to his trading and such (and missing a bunch of farm when I try to last hit with level 1 Q) so I get less gold than I could, but I find it hard to reach a core of cowl+sunfire (or warden's+belt if one's choice is Randuin's)+at least half-completed offensive item in a timely fashion. On the other hand a bunch of champions are supposed to be able to survivre w/o MR if they build enough HP (like Sunfire) early on, so maybe I could delay Cowl or even the negatron. It could come from my positioning making them all specificlly focus me though.
Also since going Sunfire I guess I could just build Sunfire+Cutlass (Tiamat not needed because of the sunfire passive) and then see if I can complete BotRK or need to get some MR beforehand. It would delay my CDR by a lot, though...
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I've been running Olaf mainly as a jungler. I max Q always when jungling. My build has been SotAG > Ninja Tabi then adjusting the order based on opponents SV>Warmogs>Randiuns. Very tanky and still a threat when my Ult is ready although I've been having problems killing ADCs with large amounts of life steal.
I dove a corki with my full build while he had equal gold with a BT and Botrk for life steal. His team rarely peeled for him and I couldn't 1v1 him completely without getting help or him just focusing other people.
Is it the case that I need a damage item because Ghostblade would be my first option or more likely is it just the fact that he didn't try to kite and I took full armor shred and true damage from Corki?
On another note has anyone tried Ghostblade in lane Olaf then tanky? It seems like his perfect item.
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How do I deal with Yasuo toplane? Is there any conceivable way of beating him, or do I have to hug tower and hope to only be 2 levels behind him mid-game instead of 3?
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On February 19 2014 07:42 BlasiuS wrote: How do I deal with Yasuo toplane? Is there any conceivable way of beating him, or do I have to hug tower and hope to only be 2 levels behind him mid-game instead of 3? break shield with axe and e him to death
i though tthat was a matchup that was considred unwinnable for yasuo?
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On February 20 2014 00:45 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 07:42 BlasiuS wrote: How do I deal with Yasuo toplane? Is there any conceivable way of beating him, or do I have to hug tower and hope to only be 2 levels behind him mid-game instead of 3? break shield with axe and e him to death i though tthat was a matchup that was considred unwinnable for yasuo?
That only works if you max E first...which means your axes run you oom and don't do any damage.
Also if he's in a minion wave he can E away after you land an axe. There's also W if you try to land long-range axes
His Q outranges everything except your super-costly axes, so he can infinitely harass you for free unless you all-in.
I've been sort of able to catch up once I build armor, but the pre-6 is horrendous.
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you're suppose to max e first on olaf top lol
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On February 20 2014 04:50 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2014 00:45 arb wrote:On February 19 2014 07:42 BlasiuS wrote: How do I deal with Yasuo toplane? Is there any conceivable way of beating him, or do I have to hug tower and hope to only be 2 levels behind him mid-game instead of 3? break shield with axe and e him to death i though tthat was a matchup that was considred unwinnable for yasuo? That only works if you max E first...which means your axes run you oom and don't do any damage. Also if he's in a minion wave he can E away after you land an axe. There's also W if you try to land long-range axes His Q outranges everything except your super-costly axes, so he can infinitely harass you for free unless you all-in. I've been sort of able to catch up once I build armor, but the pre-6 is horrendous. That sounds fairly normal for Olaf. The reason why you max E in lane is that you usually cannot sustain trades mana wise if you go for a Q max.
Personally I've only played this matchup once and it did not seem very complicated. I stayed fairly defensive (coupled with him pushing the wave constantly by trying to build E stacks) whenever he tried to E into me I'd E right back and try to force him into a fight if the minions were not completely against me. At level 4 he tried to go for an all in trusting in his shield and a slight exp advantadge (he went in right as he leveled while I still had 2 minions to go). I threw an axe into his face and ran for it and he stepped about 3 steps too far behind my minion line. At that point I turned around used ignite and ghost to stick to him and just powered him down with q+w+2Es throughout the fight.
Flash vs. Ghost in toplane (which should happen at least I have yet to see a Yasuo with ghost) should make it easy for you to stick to him. As long as you start with a Dorans shield (and Armor Seals obviously) you should be able to outlast his harass until level 4 or 5. The only thing hard about him is his lack of ressources, so you will have to play fairly safe, but there should be no reason to hug your turret either. Olaf is one of the masters of low health trades and at that level he should not be able to one shot you by any means (unless you have been eating all the harass he can dish out without trading any back).
Obviously like any top lane matchup jungler interference can make it a pain, but Olaf is better suited than most since his Ult allows him to escape some of the obvious yasuo+jungle combinations (gragas and Vi seem to be the most obnoxious). As long as you do not fall behind more than a level of xp and maybe 15 minions your better midgame scaling and armor itemization should make this matchup easy for you.
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I don't know what is any different, but my olaf is 3-0 With like 10/5/10 averages
I build BotRK, boots, Rav Hydra, then full on tank with normal AD runes and 21/6/3 masteries
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That's a beastly splitpush build, but how long is it before you can actually fight in teamfights?
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I prefer to build full tank with 40% cdr to spam that E. Warmogs,FH,Maw (20% runes/masteries)
I'm only rushing warmogs for the HP to spam E but maybe I should get 3 dorans (1 shield, 2 blade) instead then full tank?
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ravenous+bork lets you destroy EVERYTHING that cant properly kite you. Its ridiculous how strong you are in a 1v1. But at the same time you are beyond useless if your team expects you to tank. You can basically play him like a jax with these 2 items and just split push forever(altho jax has the benefit of 2 hitting squishies with tf if he needs to fight) But i feel like only 1 offensive item is better if you want to stay flexible
Have you had success winning the lane with warmogs rush? I havent tried it in ages. usually build tiamat to be capable of pushing my lane without needing to throw out all of my sp and because of my innate aspd on olaf.
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On July 04 2014 04:57 Bam Lee wrote: ravenous+bork lets you destroy EVERYTHING that cant properly kite you. Its ridiculous how strong you are in a 1v1. But at the same time you are beyond useless if your team expects you to tank. You can basically play him like a jax with these 2 items and just split push forever(altho jax has the benefit of 2 hitting squishies with tf if he needs to fight) But i feel like only 1 offensive item is better if you want to stay flexible
Have you had success winning the lane with warmogs rush? I havent tried it in ages. usually build tiamat to be capable of pushing my lane without needing to throw out all of my sp and because of my innate aspd on olaf. Yes, but most of the time warmogs doesn't determine it because the lane is won/lost before I finish it. If I can buy giants belt on the first back its easy to force the enemy out of lane with constant E spam. I try to W auto attack constantly to push the wave, heal and keep E refreshed. I never Q unless going for an all-in because the mana costs too much. Warmogs finished = free tower because you just out sustain them after a single trade.
How does Olaf fair in team fights at the one item timing with just Hydra or Bork? With warmogs I rely on his E and Ult for damage. Is the tankiness from Olaf's R enough to allow him to properly fight? I feel like I can't use his ult for damage if I don't build tanky first.
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On July 04 2014 05:25 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 04:57 Bam Lee wrote: ravenous+bork lets you destroy EVERYTHING that cant properly kite you. Its ridiculous how strong you are in a 1v1. But at the same time you are beyond useless if your team expects you to tank. You can basically play him like a jax with these 2 items and just split push forever(altho jax has the benefit of 2 hitting squishies with tf if he needs to fight) But i feel like only 1 offensive item is better if you want to stay flexible
Have you had success winning the lane with warmogs rush? I havent tried it in ages. usually build tiamat to be capable of pushing my lane without needing to throw out all of my sp and because of my innate aspd on olaf. Yes, but most of the time warmogs doesn't determine it because the lane is won/lost before I finish it. If I can buy giants belt on the first back its easy to force the enemy out of lane with constant E spam. I try to W auto attack constantly to push the wave, heal and keep E refreshed. I never Q unless going for an all-in because the mana costs too much. Warmogs finished = free tower because you just out sustain them after a single trade. How does Olaf fair in team fights at the one item timing with just Hydra or Bork? With warmogs I rely on his E and Ult for damage. Is the tankiness from Olaf's R enough to allow him to properly fight? I feel like I can't use his ult for damage if I don't build tanky first.
in skirmishes (2v2,3v3) you destroy pretty hard since they cant burst you down. For 5v5 you have to be somewhat careful cause the ap can melt you pretty hard if its a burst type of ap carry in mid. in a dead even game i feel like during the first few fights you could tunnel the adc but you definitely have to be more careful about how to engage with a damage item before tank item. You cant just blindly initiate and tunnel the adc unless you are fed
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What do you use the BoRK for? only the inital slow to engage axes? Since Olaf already have two of the main stats BoRK gives...
Also, what about Iceborn + 1 offensive item (Youmuu, BoRK, Hydra, LW?)
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Oh wait I just realized I don't do normal runes, hahah i don't even know why i said that
i'm currently doing normal AD + 15% scaling cdr quints with 5% in offense as well i'm not home but i think its 25/2/3? is what i use, something like that tp/ghost too
olaf with botrk means he will shred any single person, or usually be able to kill someone and scare off the jungler if they come to gank. he really needs 2 items to split push and scare everyone, once you get two items, boots and something tanky depending on the team you're facing then you can just rush in. the only downside i've seen is he can't hard engage.
what I've been doing is split between top and bot, while generally being a pain, think tryndamere. and warding their jungle, if you catch anyone in the jungle that doesn't have a knock up they are dead in about 3 seconds
botrk's active doesn't really matter, i mean its cool but it's meh for olaf, what is great is the passive + attack speed, with your W and E maxed (E first) you will have enough attack speed to do constant true damage + current health damage + AD damage...it's just a whole bunch. I was literally running in (plat V-plat III currently) against 2-4 people chunking a few, using my ult when i needed to and running out, if they eventually caught me i'd take 1 or two down with me consistently, i was never a free kill even with 4 of them on me.
try the build against bots just to get a feel for how fast you can melt people
olaf could go iceborn and its my favorite item honestly but what are you trying to accomplish with it? permaslow? why not just kill them, someone slowed can still kill you as fast as you kill them, someone dead can't. undertow is like a 30% slow at level 1...and if it lands you can pretty much keep landing them til they're dead, i don't see what iceborne offers him unless its an all AD team. also LW is a waste IMO, botrk+E will hurt tanks, and your normal damage will take care of squishys.
Also I don't think i've gotten to get warmogs so far its bee botrk, rav hydra, speed boots(whatever they're called) frozen heart, spectral cap* or whatever for spirit visage and its over
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Do you blind pick Olaf? I remember when he was popular I used to follow the Korean line of thinking and only picked Olaf if we had a Sivir adc (this was jungle Olaf).
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Well the Iceborn would basically be a FH replacement, and probably more in place in a full tanky build, where you'll also have Randuins.
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I've been toying with the idea of Ghostblade first since it still fits well into my 40% CDR builds and provides him a mini-ghost that Olaf really needs to stick to people.
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On July 04 2014 17:10 Duvon wrote: Well the Iceborn would basically be a FH replacement, and probably more in place in a full tanky build, where you'll also have Randuins. if im building full tank i think id take frozen heart of iceborn anyday the 20% attackspeed slow when youre standing on top of their adc is brutal
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On July 06 2014 01:46 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 17:10 Duvon wrote: Well the Iceborn would basically be a FH replacement, and probably more in place in a full tanky build, where you'll also have Randuins. if im building full tank i think id take frozen heart of iceborn anyday the 20% attackspeed slow when youre standing on top of their adc is brutal
yeah the issue with iceborne is olaf needs no stickiness at all...if you can't hit a chain of your axes after you land one you should be playing someone else, frozen heart will keep him alive longer and give him all the cdr he needs
olaf is prety safe to blind pick, he does have his counters, he's not renekton (omfg i lost to renekton so hard early game yesterday) but if you play right you can't be completely oppressed. if your lane gets tough you can max Q and then just e a couple minions and Q a group of them while going pure AD, after awhile you can on shot caster minions and your E will finish off a melee or two if you're fast enough
olaf falling off late game has been greatly exaggerated, people build armor, olaf ignores armor...so yeah
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It's not his damage that falls off, it's that his split push isn't oppressive enough to force a second champ to come (if not fairly far ahead), plus some team fight issues. Particularly no hard engage, and the need to use ghost plus ult to even soft engage(which reduces your tankiness by a lot). He is kinda amid to late game skirmish champ, which is a weird niche.
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His damage does fall off: people's HP pools become bigger just from levels, especially AD carries who in the midgame have more levels to gain than solo laners. His E basically stops scaling once the skill is maxed, and even when taking into account additional CDR and AD, its damage compare to the HP of the target is lower than in the midgame. When you move from 1/4th of the AD's HP to 1/6th, your damage falls off. You have less burst, you take longer to kill people, but your ult's duration remains the same so it's harder for you to kill your target during your window.
Because the game also moves from dragon fights, skirmishes and picks in the jungle to tower sieges/baron dances, during which Olaf is worse (all he has is Q really, and it doesn't do much and taxes his manapool), he can't leverage his strengths as much as the game progresses into the later stages. Add to this that offensive itemisation scales better than defensive, and his tankiness will suffer (Shyvana for example doesn't suffer as much because she's tankier than him and has great (and AoE) base damage, and better mobility to apply it).
Once Olaf's ult is down, he's a sitting duck, and the longer the game goes the less he does during it, typically. It's comparable to Irelia whose damage scaling is marginal post-9+Triforce (sure Zephyr gives some dps through AS but that's not comparable) and her "uptime" (Hiten's 6s duration and long cd compared to Jax or Shyvana) doesn't let her accomplish as much.
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On July 08 2014 00:56 Alaric wrote: His damage does fall off: people's HP pools become bigger just from levels, especially AD carries who in the midgame have more levels to gain than solo laners. His E basically stops scaling once the skill is maxed, and even when taking into account additional CDR and AD, its damage compare to the HP of the target is lower than in the midgame. When you move from 1/4th of the AD's HP to 1/6th, your damage falls off. You have less burst, you take longer to kill people, but your ult's duration remains the same so it's harder for you to kill your target during your window.
Because the game also moves from dragon fights, skirmishes and picks in the jungle to tower sieges/baron dances, during which Olaf is worse (all he has is Q really, and it doesn't do much and taxes his manapool), he can't leverage his strengths as much as the game progresses into the later stages. Add to this that offensive itemisation scales better than defensive, and his tankiness will suffer (Shyvana for example doesn't suffer as much because she's tankier than him and has great (and AoE) base damage, and better mobility to apply it).
Once Olaf's ult is down, he's a sitting duck, and the longer the game goes the less he does during it, typically. It's comparable to Irelia whose damage scaling is marginal post-9+Triforce (sure Zephyr gives some dps through AS but that's not comparable) and her "uptime" (Hiten's 6s duration and long cd compared to Jax or Shyvana) doesn't let her accomplish as much.
The build I use also has the BotRK in it that makes having a higher HP pool matter very little now, it's a great addition to Olaf now. I'm still working on trading with the stronger lane bullies (darius, renekton) but I absolutely stomp all late game tanks who have large hp pools.
The other person that said something is correct, he is a mid/late game skirmish champion, but with good use of teleports and ghost, he can run in and ruin your enemies day.
and most of the time, the top lane has to be with mid lane or adc in order to kill you, the normal jungler/top combo just won't do. I am only plat V right now so it's not super high level play, but currently I can wait for someone to miss a skill shot or blow their combo and turn around and chunk 60% of their health in one combo. I have had games where I went 1-5-3 or something around there, and came back LATE GAME as 16-8-6
in my opinion BotRK is a huge buff to olaf edit- along with sustain nerfs, and cdr rune buffs he's a lot stronger than he used to be in my opinion
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Olaf doesn't become useless when his ult is down. He just can't dive the enemy carry, instead he can peel for his own. True damage may lose scaling against late game squishies who gain HP per level but that True damage can still truck a Sunfire/Randiuns Shyvana who is used to surviving much longer.
Olaf is not a solo diver. I've learned this enough times that if Olaf Ult/Ghosts in by himself he just gets blownup before he kills the carry reguardless if he build full AD/Tank/Bruiser. But if your team sends another diver with Olaf it works very well because they can't peel Olaf so they must focus him which allows your second diver (preferably an assassin) uncontested for a full combo.
Olaf is the akin to a full back smashing through a defensive line so the running back can score! (American Football referense lol)
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I've never seen (well I have, but only on tl) people so vigorously say characters that clearly are undertuned are actually really good, if only people would use them in this other way.
Seriously? Use Olaf to peel? With his 45% slow? That is what teams want you to do. Mundo does that better, and jax, and nasus, malphite, zac........
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I never said using Olaf to peel was ideal, but what else are you going to do if your ult/ghost combo is down?
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On July 08 2014 03:55 cLutZ wrote: I've never seen (well I have, but only on tl) people so vigorously say characters that clearly are undertuned are actually really good, if only people would use them in this other way.
Seriously? Use Olaf to peel? With his 45% slow? That is what teams want you to do. Mundo does that better, and jax, and nasus, malphite, zac........
you do realize that he has been nothing but buffed by the recent changes in the game right? the only hit sort of nerf is randuins not slowing movespeed but that was never an item choice for me anyway. What if korea/lcs never picked up kog, or better yet, what about all those players that have carried hard as twitch but he almost never received any professional play? He then got a VISUAL UPDATE and right after everyone played him, and lead to him actually being nerfed, when nothing actually changed on him stats wise.
the meta isn't all knowing, it took 2 months for everyone else to realize lulu was OP after the AP ratio "nerf" and the competitive scene recently discovered the whole runaans thing... -_-
nearly every champion can carry very hard given the right circumstances, I just have had really good success with olaf even when behind, which wasn't the case before these buffs. this is especially relevant to me considering how bad my top lane is.
if nothing more, olaf can be a great counter pick to a tanky team.
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On July 08 2014 05:10 Ghost-z wrote: I never said using Olaf to peel was ideal, but what else are you going to do if your ult/ghost combo is down?
I mean, you can do that, but that is just an illustration of how overly reliant on a summoner spell (Ghost) Olaf is.
On July 08 2014 05:31 GreggSauce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 03:55 cLutZ wrote: I've never seen (well I have, but only on tl) people so vigorously say characters that clearly are undertuned are actually really good, if only people would use them in this other way.
Seriously? Use Olaf to peel? With his 45% slow? That is what teams want you to do. Mundo does that better, and jax, and nasus, malphite, zac........ you do realize that he has been nothing but buffed by the recent changes in the game right? the only hit sort of nerf is randuins not slowing movespeed but that was never an item choice for me anyway. What if korea/lcs never picked up kog, or better yet, what about all those players that have carried hard as twitch but he almost never received any professional play? He then got a VISUAL UPDATE and right after everyone played him, and lead to him actually being nerfed, when nothing actually changed on him stats wise. the meta isn't all knowing, it took 2 months for everyone else to realize lulu was OP after the AP ratio "nerf" and the competitive scene recently discovered the whole runaans thing... -_- nearly every champion can carry very hard given the right circumstances, I just have had really good success with olaf even when behind, which wasn't the case before these buffs. this is especially relevant to me considering how bad my top lane is. if nothing more, olaf can be a great counter pick to a tanky team.
He needs buffs to be good. You dont get to say things like "I have had success" or "the meta isn't perfect" and say that people should prove a negative.
You need to lay out your affirmative case: "I want a toplaner that does X, Olaf does X better than other toplaners." That is step 1. Step 2 is "Olaf's weaknesses YZ are not large enough to outweigh this X".
Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't play him, because I play him. But when I do I know I am handicapping myself for the sake of fun and diversity over playing Jax/Mundo/Shyvana/Renekton/AP tops.
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Recent changes being buffs to Olaf? Name one. The Randuins nerf was huge. Also nearly every ADC suddenly having a BotRK because no one builds Bloodthirster anymore doesn't really play into his favor. Neither does the change to the burst aspect of it, because that was pretty useful for helping burst people fairly quickly. And 8% of his current health being knocked off on the first hit pre-resists from the new BotRK doesn't help much either.
Other things like exhaust, heal, protect the Kog comps seeing a resurgence, turret, etc. make him really lackluster now. You factor everything together, and I think most reasonable people would say "there's not much reason to play Olaf right now." Before all of those changes I could sort of convince myself his drawbacks were worth it against the right comp, but now? Hell no. The one time I might pull him out as a Jax lane counter (which probably isn't even worth it given if the game drags enough this amounts to nothing), otherwise I'm not touching him with a 10 foot pole if I'm thinking about it from a strength of the pick perspective. Maybe the teleport cooldown onto a turret being longer helps him a tiny tiny bit?
Lulu has gobs of utility, you can't look at Olaf and honestly claim people are missing something, because he's similar to a number of other bruisers and he has almost no utility aside from the paltry slow on his axes. The fact you think all the recent changes amount to an Olaf buff is nuts, and I let "split push Olaf" go without comments because it was fringe enough I think most people would realize its sub-optimal on its own, but why on earth would you pick Olaf with the intent of playing him as a low defense two early offensive item split pusher? He has no innate escape other than "oo, you can't cc me temporarily" which isn't exactly the best means of escape if you're deep. Who gives a crap if you win a 1v1 if you have very poor means of closing on the person opposite of you, and all they have to do is stall, because if you use your ghost and ult to kill them, you now have no realistic means of escaping with other people closing on you. You can't say "think Jax or Tryn" when what makes them obscene is their low cooldown dashes that make it extremely difficult to catch them on top of being strong 1v1ers when they're even/ahead.
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Protect the Kog'ma coming back to the meta seems like a good reason to pick Olaf, become a huge tank, and cause hell for the enemy back line. But other than that specific case Olaf isn't a top tier pick. I just like playing him over any other tank because Brolaf!
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On July 08 2014 07:43 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 05:10 Ghost-z wrote: I never said using Olaf to peel was ideal, but what else are you going to do if your ult/ghost combo is down? I mean, you can do that, but that is just an illustration of how overly reliant on a summoner spell (Ghost) Olaf is. Show nested quote +On July 08 2014 05:31 GreggSauce wrote:On July 08 2014 03:55 cLutZ wrote: I've never seen (well I have, but only on tl) people so vigorously say characters that clearly are undertuned are actually really good, if only people would use them in this other way.
Seriously? Use Olaf to peel? With his 45% slow? That is what teams want you to do. Mundo does that better, and jax, and nasus, malphite, zac........ you do realize that he has been nothing but buffed by the recent changes in the game right? the only hit sort of nerf is randuins not slowing movespeed but that was never an item choice for me anyway. What if korea/lcs never picked up kog, or better yet, what about all those players that have carried hard as twitch but he almost never received any professional play? He then got a VISUAL UPDATE and right after everyone played him, and lead to him actually being nerfed, when nothing actually changed on him stats wise. the meta isn't all knowing, it took 2 months for everyone else to realize lulu was OP after the AP ratio "nerf" and the competitive scene recently discovered the whole runaans thing... -_- nearly every champion can carry very hard given the right circumstances, I just have had really good success with olaf even when behind, which wasn't the case before these buffs. this is especially relevant to me considering how bad my top lane is. if nothing more, olaf can be a great counter pick to a tanky team. He needs buffs to be good. You dont get to say things like "I have had success" or "the meta isn't perfect" and say that people should prove a negative. You need to lay out your affirmative case: "I want a toplaner that does X, Olaf does X better than other toplaners." That is step 1. Step 2 is "Olaf's weaknesses YZ are not large enough to outweigh this X". Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't play him, because I play him. But when I do I know I am handicapping myself for the sake of fun and diversity over playing Jax/Mundo/Shyvana/Renekton/AP tops.
Well for 1 Olaf beats every single non ap top you just mentioned... 2. it really doesn't sound like you play him at all. 3. I get to say my opinions exactly how I want to, and give my build I used for success and fun, just because you don't find him viable doesn't mean he isn't. Plenty of champs weren't considered viable were recently played to hell and then nerfed or are about to be nerfed. Could he use a buff or a change in his kit (again) sure? But does he need one to be strong? I don't think so, maybe he's only a 50% win rate champ now, but he has been 35-40% win rate and I don't think that has to be the case anymore. 4....You act incredibly smug when you're providing even less information than me regarding this, I'm not perfect, my play does suffer from miscalculations, but I am pretty sure olaf can be a great pick in where the meta is currently going.
On July 08 2014 09:13 zer0das wrote: Recent changes being buffs to Olaf? Name one. The Randuins nerf was huge. Also nearly every ADC suddenly having a BotRK because no one builds Bloodthirster anymore doesn't really play into his favor. Neither does the change to the burst aspect of it, because that was pretty useful for helping burst people fairly quickly. And 8% of his current health being knocked off on the first hit pre-resists from the new BotRK doesn't help much either.
Other things like exhaust, heal, protect the Kog comps seeing a resurgence, turret, etc. make him really lackluster now. You factor everything together, and I think most reasonable people would say "there's not much reason to play Olaf right now." Before all of those changes I could sort of convince myself his drawbacks were worth it against the right comp, but now? Hell no. The one time I might pull him out as a Jax lane counter (which probably isn't even worth it given if the game drags enough this amounts to nothing), otherwise I'm not touching him with a 10 foot pole if I'm thinking about it from a strength of the pick perspective. Maybe the teleport cooldown onto a turret being longer helps him a tiny tiny bit?
Lulu has gobs of utility, you can't look at Olaf and honestly claim people are missing something, because he's similar to a number of other bruisers and he has almost no utility aside from the paltry slow on his axes. The fact you think all the recent changes amount to an Olaf buff is nuts, and I let "split push Olaf" go without comments because it was fringe enough I think most people would realize its sub-optimal on its own, but why on earth would you pick Olaf with the intent of playing him as a low defense two early offensive item split pusher? He has no innate escape other than "oo, you can't cc me temporarily" which isn't exactly the best means of escape if you're deep. Who gives a crap if you win a 1v1 if you have very poor means of closing on the person opposite of you, and all they have to do is stall, because if you use your ghost and ult to kill them, you now have no realistic means of escaping with other people closing on you. You can't say "think Jax or Tryn" when what makes them obscene is their low cooldown dashes that make it extremely difficult to catch them on top of being strong 1v1ers when they're even/ahead.
Lulu anywhere but support and mid isn't supposed to happen, riot doesn't even like it, saying the current S class top is better than any other top is a stupid argument. Paltry slow? You spelled perma wrong. randuins in my opinion was just an added item to get on him and not even really that beneficial for him considering he has an aoe slow and frozen heart has always made his kit much much stronger.
How you type makes you seem like you're disconnected with reality a tiny bit. If you play smartly you won't get ganked and you won't have to rely on any type of escape. Maybe you should calm down, think everything through and give olaf an actual shot. You may enjoy yourself and even win...easily...
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I'm kind of unconvinced when all your profile shows is a 5-6 record for Olaf at Gold I, considering these games include a swifties/Triforce/BotRK Nasus who fed super hard, a Singed who seems to have rushed Rylai+Liandry's and such. I'll admit that your damage done to champions graph is rather high, especially considering the amount of stupid shit like Ziggs in your teams, but your sample of games played to support your allegations is very low, especially considering that for a good third of them you didn't even go the build you advertised.
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On July 09 2014 00:00 Ghost-z wrote: Protect the Kog'ma coming back to the meta seems like a good reason to pick Olaf, become a huge tank, and cause hell for the enemy back line. But other than that specific case Olaf isn't a top tier pick. I just like playing him over any other tank because Brolaf!
I don't necessarily think it is, because these comps have a lot more shields, heals, and a stronger exhaust at their disposal than they did last time protect the Kog comps were popular, and Kog's damage output is high enough your odds of dying before killing him are fairly high unless your team did an extremely good job of engaging. Engaging well with a champion that is largely limited by how fast he can walk just adds a layer of difficulty to things.
In response to the perma slow comment, its paltry because its actual utility is low if you aren't using offensively. You can't realistically expect to kite backwards with it, because the cooldown is so long if you don't pick up the axe. There are fringe cases where this isn't true (chucking an axe on an ulting Wukong, for example), but you don't pick Olaf for the utility on his axes. Unless you have an early invade strategy and want the vision.
You still haven't listed a single "buff" to Olaf via the recent changes. I'd like something concrete here, not anecdotes. The entire point of a split pusher is to draw people toward you and put enough threat down that the enemy team has to react by either engaging your team or falling back to put effort into killing you. If they choose option 2, you need a reasonable way to get out. Saying "play safe" is being disingenuous, because every split pusher out there already has to consider this, and most of them have much better ways of running away. So how much threat are you actually generating if you're playing safe on a low mobility split pusher? I'm going to say on average, not a lot unless you're comically ahead of your counterpart.
As for giving Olaf a shot, maybe I should.
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On July 09 2014 03:45 Alaric wrote:I'm kind of unconvinced when all your profile shows is a 5-6 record for Olaf at Gold I, considering these games include a swifties/Triforce/BotRK Nasus who fed super hard, a Singed who seems to have rushed Rylai+Liandry's and such. I'll admit that your damage done to champions graph is rather high, especially considering the amount of stupid shit like Ziggs in your teams, but your sample of games played to support your allegations is very low, especially considering that for a good third of them you didn't even go the build you advertised.
wonder if I can show you 3 of the games i've lost lol, had really weird teams and I just dropped down, but the thing is I don't play this only on my main i just recently brought him out and i was 5-1 with him. Pretty sure my IRL friend is bad luck for me lol
With that said I never said he was the best and should be OP or be the next top tier, he just beats a lot of the current top laners, and with the new botrk plus the older cdr buffs he can get 40% cdr, life steal, and be incredibly tanky still.
ex-if you look at the last game I played with him, I actually rebought my kit twice, my team would get caught by lux and something else, die, lose objective, rinse and repeat. I went from pure damage and was doing pretty well, to having to go almost full tank to try to keep my team alive because they were only getting caught
he is a lot more effective than people think now, and with tanky junglers back in the meta he can be a great pick, that is all.
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On July 09 2014 05:10 zer0das wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 00:00 Ghost-z wrote: Protect the Kog'ma coming back to the meta seems like a good reason to pick Olaf, become a huge tank, and cause hell for the enemy back line. But other than that specific case Olaf isn't a top tier pick. I just like playing him over any other tank because Brolaf! I don't necessarily think it is, because these comps have a lot more shields, heals, and a stronger exhaust at their disposal than they did last time protect the Kog comps were popular, and Kog's damage output is high enough your odds of dying before killing him are fairly high unless your team did an extremely good job of engaging. Engaging well with a champion that is largely limited by how fast he can walk just adds a layer of difficulty to things. In response to the perma slow comment, its paltry because its actual utility is low if you aren't using offensively. You can't realistically expect to kite backwards with it, because the cooldown is so long if you don't pick up the axe. There are fringe cases where this isn't true (chucking an axe on an ulting Wukong, for example), but you don't pick Olaf for the utility on his axes. Unless you have an early invade strategy and want the vision. You still haven't listed a single "buff" to Olaf via the recent changes. I'd like something concrete here, not anecdotes. The entire point of a split pusher is to draw people toward you and put enough threat down that the enemy team has to react by either engaging your team or falling back to put effort into killing you. If they choose option 2, you need a reasonable way to get out. Saying "play safe" is being disingenuous, because every split pusher out there already has to consider this, and most of them have much better ways of running away. So how much threat are you actually generating if you're playing safe on a low mobility split pusher? I'm going to say on average, not a lot unless you're comically ahead of your counterpart. As for giving Olaf a shot, maybe I should.
I've already listed how the recent changes have buffed him.
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Which CDR buffs? Since the last time he was actually good, SV and Shroud were nerfed, Shurely doesn't exist anymore...
As for the buffs, how significant are CDR runes (real question, I never bothered about them, I just know it's easier to hit 10% from them with a round number)? BotRK's on-hit isn't particularly better for him, considering whenever he hits squishies (when he goes for a dive) his autos and Es will do more damage than the on-hit. It also means he will take more damage from the champions building it, and with BT taking such a big hit BotRK is near-omnipresent (save for IE first carries). If he uses the active to close the gap it can be used on him in turn to run away. Also take into account the pool of popular champions: Ziggs is hard to engage on because of the goddamn minefield and Olaf doesn't provide the initiation; he can't ignore the minefield but will get cut from his team; Satchel Charge is mobility. Lulu, with her W and the time her R can buy, be it from the offlane, mid or support. Kayle with a heal, a speedboost, and her ult making Olaf waste his. Nami with all the MS boosts and the ability to separate Olaf from his team. Jax would win later on and can somewhat easily escape Olaf if he uses Q well compared to Undertow. Twitch doesn't care about cc immunity because you can't hit what you can't see, and he doesn't have to show himself until he can wreck your team anyway.
All in all I don't see too much for Olaf currently. He'd need better build-ups too, he heavily prefers resistances but he needs a buffer of HP to reach the fight and make his E's cost insignificant. All this makes it rather awkward for him to itemise in the early game because if he goes damage he'll be weaker than champions like Shyvana/Jax/Irelia/Renekton, and will have to wait for his 2nd item to really be a teamfighting threat; until then he wants a 1v1 without a tower for his opponent to juke around, and skirmishes.
I also don't get your answer to me. Do you mean you're playing him more on a smurf? But where's that smurf then? If you're Gold I and truck people with a Silver I/Gold V smurf then it's irrelevant to Olaf anyway, for example, because the skill gap is too wide to begin with.
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On July 09 2014 05:28 GreggSauce wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 05:10 zer0das wrote:On July 09 2014 00:00 Ghost-z wrote: Protect the Kog'ma coming back to the meta seems like a good reason to pick Olaf, become a huge tank, and cause hell for the enemy back line. But other than that specific case Olaf isn't a top tier pick. I just like playing him over any other tank because Brolaf! I don't necessarily think it is, because these comps have a lot more shields, heals, and a stronger exhaust at their disposal than they did last time protect the Kog comps were popular, and Kog's damage output is high enough your odds of dying before killing him are fairly high unless your team did an extremely good job of engaging. Engaging well with a champion that is largely limited by how fast he can walk just adds a layer of difficulty to things. In response to the perma slow comment, its paltry because its actual utility is low if you aren't using offensively. You can't realistically expect to kite backwards with it, because the cooldown is so long if you don't pick up the axe. There are fringe cases where this isn't true (chucking an axe on an ulting Wukong, for example), but you don't pick Olaf for the utility on his axes. Unless you have an early invade strategy and want the vision. You still haven't listed a single "buff" to Olaf via the recent changes. I'd like something concrete here, not anecdotes. The entire point of a split pusher is to draw people toward you and put enough threat down that the enemy team has to react by either engaging your team or falling back to put effort into killing you. If they choose option 2, you need a reasonable way to get out. Saying "play safe" is being disingenuous, because every split pusher out there already has to consider this, and most of them have much better ways of running away. So how much threat are you actually generating if you're playing safe on a low mobility split pusher? I'm going to say on average, not a lot unless you're comically ahead of your counterpart. As for giving Olaf a shot, maybe I should. I've already listed how the recent changes have buffed him.
List them again for my benefit, because I sure haven't seen you list them concisely.
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I don't feel like it, they're up there.
To the guy above, yes I play him on couple smurfs, nothing higher than plat and a couple unranked. I haven't been playing well lately so my record, and the champion shouldn't exactly go hand in hand, I haven't been able to even carry with my go-to orianna pick (80-90% win rate in plat/diamond when I was there) so idk.
With that said you shouldn't be going for squishies unless you have to, your object is to duel a tank and keep them off your squishes by "peeling by threat."
My games with olaf when I made this were plat IV, since then i've dropped even further, maybe tilting or whatever, but I was practicing olaf when my normal MMR was diamond V before all hell broke loose on my account lol.
You're listing some of the most OP champions in the game, like we have no banning phase, and like most champions have a way to deal with them? That's kind of ridiculous, anyway.
lulu, yeah, pain in the ass all game for any melee champion...period, and most champions ziggs, pain in the ass for every champion, agian period. nami, never been an issue, could see how she could be but the object is to win, not get seperated from my team when i don't want to me, non issue. jax beats everyone later on, with that said, if anyone cc's jax for like 1-2 seconds he's dead with you, definitely is a coin flip, but you have an ult that makes it go in your favor 100% if you're quick enough. kayle, sort of a pain in the ass i guess? run in, knock her down, her ult goes up, engage someone else, she has to chase you, or goes back to your team, rinse and repeat. twitch?...really? can't hit what you can't see? oh yeah like all but a handful of champs with detection abilities... non issue
I go AD, scaling cdr quints, whatever for blues and yellows depending on the matchup I go either 21/6/3 with spell weaving, cdr, and duel edge or 5/22/3 basically if we have no tank and my pick was kind of blind i'll go tanky, if not i'll go more hardcore all damage
i prefer to start dorans shield, but i have had great success with level 1 dueling a nasus with red elixir and pots afterwards i almost always go longswords-cutlass, then botrk. in some cases i will start building up my armor but i prefer getting boots before armor if possible
once you're 6 if you plan your ult right you can outduel anyone top lane, time your ult to take away the cc that has most top lanes win their trade and they just lose, be wary of getting ganked though, if they seem like they're baiting then they are.
your only object from what I can see as olaf is to kill the top laner and try to find the enemy jungler if you can and take him out too
if you can finish your item before your opponent they will never be able to stay in lane, and once that happens you want to get a good TP off, hopefully your team goes dragon or dives bot lane or something like that. when my olaf wins hard it's due to snowballing from good calls, a bad call will get you killed. you don't want to go 1-1 as olaf, you want to delete and run
boots of swiftness are the boots i usually get, but tabi work good
bottom line is, try it out or don't try it out, but i'm growing tired of people saying it can't work when I was having success with it in plat/diamond, sure its not challenger but its not bronze/silver either.
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Well you were talking about "more protect the Kog comps benefit Olaf", to which I was responding that it doesn't necessarily. If you're against a 4-protect-1, normally your own comp doesn't scale as well as their 1, meaning your goal is to kill him, not kill all of the peelers and frontliners and then him. Champs with cleanses and MS buffs work better than those relying on pure cc against Olaf because since you can't stop him, remaining out of his range is the other option. And in a comp that makes you want to dive them because of their "1", the ability to separate the enemy team when they try to go in is a very valuable one. All I did was take your argument and pit it against the current popular picks.
It's not like I don't try playing him either from time to time, and I get to the same conclusion every instance. Sure I'm only Gold I, but I used to main Olaf in s2 and I kept playing him for a few weeks after his destruction in s3, and I picked him back up as soon as SmashGizmo changed him. I'm posting here because [who he was] is one of my favourite champions and I'd wish he wasn't so handicaped.
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No, you haven't. List the damn changes that benefit Olaf and stop talking in circles.
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On July 09 2014 07:51 Alaric wrote: Well you were talking about "more protect the Kog comps benefit Olaf", to which I was responding that it doesn't necessarily. If you're against a 4-protect-1, normally your own comp doesn't scale as well as their 1, meaning your goal is to kill him, not kill all of the peelers and frontliners and then him. Champs with cleanses and MS buffs work better than those relying on pure cc against Olaf because since you can't stop him, remaining out of his range is the other option. And in a comp that makes you want to dive them because of their "1", the ability to separate the enemy team when they try to go in is a very valuable one. All I did was take your argument and pit it against the current popular picks.
It's not like I don't try playing him either from time to time, and I get to the same conclusion every instance. Sure I'm only Gold I, but I used to main Olaf in s2 and I kept playing him for a few weeks after his destruction in s3, and I picked him back up as soon as SmashGizmo changed him. I'm posting here because [who he was] is one of my favourite champions and I'd wish he wasn't so handicaped.
Basically the same for me. He is worse for every comp than at least 2 of the popular champions. He is particularly anemic when matched with these champs, and if you are never the optimal champion for a situation, you aren't viable.
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On July 09 2014 07:51 zer0das wrote: No, you haven't. List the damn changes that benefit Olaf and stop talking in circles. you're done here, already addressed, l2r or leave thanks.
On July 09 2014 07:59 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 07:51 Alaric wrote: Well you were talking about "more protect the Kog comps benefit Olaf", to which I was responding that it doesn't necessarily. If you're against a 4-protect-1, normally your own comp doesn't scale as well as their 1, meaning your goal is to kill him, not kill all of the peelers and frontliners and then him. Champs with cleanses and MS buffs work better than those relying on pure cc against Olaf because since you can't stop him, remaining out of his range is the other option. And in a comp that makes you want to dive them because of their "1", the ability to separate the enemy team when they try to go in is a very valuable one. All I did was take your argument and pit it against the current popular picks.
It's not like I don't try playing him either from time to time, and I get to the same conclusion every instance. Sure I'm only Gold I, but I used to main Olaf in s2 and I kept playing him for a few weeks after his destruction in s3, and I picked him back up as soon as SmashGizmo changed him. I'm posting here because [who he was] is one of my favourite champions and I'd wish he wasn't so handicaped. Basically the same for me. He is worse for every comp than at least 2 of the popular champions. He is particularly anemic when matched with these champs, and if you are never the optimal champion for a situation, you aren't viable.
I never brought that up, someone else did to clutz and alaric. If you're saying olaf isn't viable because 5v5 he can't hard engage then you're right, but also if you're in a 5v5 situation the game didn't go how you wanted it to anyway. I guess the takeaway from all of this is if you use him right he excels, and if you don't he won't?
From my experiences, everyone makes a mistake eventually, all it takes is 1 axe to burn a summoner spell or two, and in all honesty, i haven't had too bad of experiences with 5v5's as olaf using my damage build as long as we had a reliable tank to engage ahead of me.
my original post was something like "olaf is pretty good now with botrk, this is what I do... blah blah blah, currently unbeaten with him against top lanes in whatever elo, gold-high plat" that is still the point i'm trying to make, if you guys happen to not think he isn't viable that's cool, but I don't think this topic is for your to tell me that something I have carried hard with happens to work in highesh elo, now people will have to sift through a silly argument the whole time trying to figure out what to build because this topic is so out of date...
can you please argue with me through PM instead of inflating this anymore?
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You make vague claims about it being easy to build 40% CDR and the new BoTRK helps him, but both are patently false (historically, its more difficult to build 40% cdr without runes than ever) and you provide no reasoning as to why your claims are true. No, I will not take this to PMs because you're spewing nonsense that exceeds the Shikyo level, and its in like every damn thread and I'm tired of it.
Even if the above were true, they don't even come close to compensating for the other changes.
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Gregg, either list them or leave the thread, please.
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Jax/Mundo/Shyvana/Renekton/AP tops
On July 09 2014 03:28 GreggSauce wrote: Well for 1 Olaf beats every single non ap top you just mentioned... I would like some explanation on how he beats Jax and Renekton in particular. Also:
On July 09 2014 03:28 GreggSauce wrote: Lulu anywhere but support and mid isn't supposed to happen, riot doesn't even like it, saying the current S class top is better than any other top is a stupid argument. Lulu's been being played exclusively top for a couple patches now in NA/KR/EU. And I think that saying the current S class top is stronger than Olaf is a lot less of a stretch than saying Olaf is better than the current S class top laners...
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Olaf is actually pretty good against Jax early because Jax can't really deal with the repeated true damage from Olaf's E's, and tends to lose every close all-in if it's 1v1, pre-6 (mana is partly why). If Jax tries to cs, you q his face and e him- he can try to counter strike onto you to return some of the damage, but if you auto him as he walks away you should come out ahead (and you have innate sustain, whereas he doesn't). Post 6 it comes down to whether or not Jax has built up his passive on a wave- you can't really fight him if he has, but if he hasn't you can zone him off creeps with fairly good success because every time he goes to try cs you E him in the face and he can't vamp it back fast enough. If you've maintained a small lead at least.
Haven't really played the matchup since they changed doran's blades though. The real issue is 2v2s can swing pretty heavily to the Jax side, and if Jax's mid roams you're in a lot more trouble than in the reserve situation due to your lack of a low cooldown dash that can be used as an escape. I imagine it's pretty heavily in favor Olaf's favor now early, given they nerfed Jax's armor per level and his hitpoints a bit, at least in a vacuum. More importantly, if Jax goes TP he's going to have problems against an Olaf with ignite. The hard part of the matchup is staying far enough ahead that you can always deal with him, because the later the game gets, the better Jax can deal with your true damage burst. It comes down to, are you good enough to body a Jax that you're confident you can win the game before he becomes a factor? If you never get a lead early or you lose it, you're just completely screwed though.
Renekton is a lot more of a challenge, but essentially the best way to play it is get 2-3 levels in Q and just passively farm as best you can. Then when you reach 8 or 9, you'll have enough levels in E that you can start to fight him. You're going to be behind 20-30 cs in farm most likely, but if you make it past that point your E is going to beat him in really long fights, especially if you manage to complete BotRK after your first armor item (and definitely after your second). Renektons burst is obnoxious, but if you can survive it in relatively good shape, you're generally going to beat him as Olaf. Thing is, you're never going to only be against Renekton if their jungler is smart, so its not really a matchup you pick into if you can avoid it. Once you get over the hump, Renekton is never going to really beat you 1v1 though, because BotRK and your true damage just shred him.
With Olaf it's never really been an issue of the 1v1 in my mind, it's about what you offer to your team and whether its enough. And at the moment, I think the answer is simply no, it's not enough. About a month ago I would have said "maybe."
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On July 09 2014 08:39 zer0das wrote: You make vague claims about it being easy to build 40% CDR and the new BoTRK helps him, but both are patently false (historically, its more difficult to build 40% cdr without runes than ever) and you provide no reasoning as to why your claims are true. No, I will not take this to PMs because you're spewing nonsense that exceeds the Shikyo level, and its in like every damn thread and I'm tired of it.
Even if the above were true, they don't even come close to compensating for the other changes. Frozen heart, Spirit Visage, Idk for the last 10, runes/masteries probably Both of those are super good items on Olaf tbh.
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I dunno it just seems like jungle pressure completely owns Olaf in those two matches because both of them have a pretty much guaranteed stun with counterstrike + leap strike and slice/dice + ruthless predator. Not only that but Olaf is generally taking ghost over flash and will have a very hard time escaping.
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On July 09 2014 13:42 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 08:39 zer0das wrote: You make vague claims about it being easy to build 40% CDR and the new BoTRK helps him, but both are patently false (historically, its more difficult to build 40% cdr without runes than ever) and you provide no reasoning as to why your claims are true. No, I will not take this to PMs because you're spewing nonsense that exceeds the Shikyo level, and its in like every damn thread and I'm tired of it.
Even if the above were true, they don't even come close to compensating for the other changes. Frozen heart, Spirit Visage, Idk for the last 10, runes/masteries probably Both of those are super good items on Olaf tbh.
You could get 40% cdr with two items and no cdr runes not that long ago. I'm not claiming building CDR is bad, just that nothing has really changed other than you have the option (which has an opportunity cost) of using CDR runes. To say that is an Olaf buff is a stretch, because anyone can use them and it's not exactly for free. Especially when the person making these claims is advocating a two offensive item "split push" build where you're not going to reach 40% cdr in any reasonable time frame.
On July 09 2014 13:56 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: I dunno it just seems like jungle pressure completely owns Olaf in those two matches because both of them have a pretty much guaranteed stun with counterstrike + leap strike and slice/dice + ruthless predator. Not only that but Olaf is generally taking ghost over flash and will have a very hard time escaping.
Is a post 6 Olaf really worth ganking? A lot of times, the answer is no. Ghost is a double edged sword- it comes back faster too. I mean yes, Olaf has this weakness, but going into that you know that, so you play accordingly.
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Shouldn't you try to build some HP before you go FH/Visage anyway (since Kindlegem by itself isn't that much and delays the resistances)? If only because HP >>> resistances early (unless you're like Irelia vs Fiora/Renekton/etc. where you go Warden's Mail first) for the price, and to make you lose a lesser % of your HP to your E spam.
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I would say that's a fairly reasonable point.
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On July 09 2014 17:04 Alaric wrote: Shouldn't you try to build some HP before you go FH/Visage anyway (since Kindlegem by itself isn't that much and delays the resistances)? If only because HP >>> resistances early (unless you're like Irelia vs Fiora/Renekton/etc. where you go Warden's Mail first) for the price, and to make you lose a lesser % of your HP to your E spam.
HP doesn't affect how bad E hurts you though, E will damage you the same regardless of your HP, besides the point is more about your opponents damage to you, since they can't stop you from hurting them, you just have to kill them before they kill you. Your W negates most/all of the E damage and should be off cooldown when you engage.
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"Make you lose a lesser % of your HP". Because as you say E inflicts the same self-damage to you, having more HP means you'll take relatively less damage. Obviously Olaf has sustain, but when you can't abuse it to great extents more HP means you won't wear yourself down as easily spamming it. W should be available when you go in for a trade obviously, but punishing a last hit/harassing shouldn't be done every 16s only.
The main argument for starting with some HP over some resists when talking defensive stats is the whole "early game HP > resists" (especially if they have good magic burst since you'll be against physical damage in the off lane most of the time) anyway, and it was as a caveat to building FH first (I'd love to be able to, but then Syndra and Nami would look at me funny and I'd explode).
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This thread should be about how to gain the most value from Olaf's kit every single game and not whether he is OP or UP.
That said I prefer CDR boots after Frozen Heart to complete my 40% CDR build (5 from offence mastery). It believe it gives me the strongest two item timing with Warmogs & FH. I try to maximize aggressive fights mid-game because your damage spikes with low CD E's (everyone's HP still low enough) and you have a strong HP pool to hedge off magic damage burst and nearly 200 armor for tanking the tower shots for the team. Frozen Heart's 20% AS slow makes any attack speed based carry cry because they barely have a zeal at this point in the game. You also have plenty of sustain with Warmogs passive and W so you can pressure a 2nd objective (dragon or red/blue buff) immediately after taking a tower before going back to base.
I start Doran's shield which synergies well with his E (HP and regen) and again with my runes which are flat armor reds, flat armor yellows, MR per level blues, move speed quints.
Recent changes that "helped" Olaf: Doran's blade nerf helps if you play my tank style since now Doran's shield has a bigger level 1 advantage and the Randuins nerf because I prefer FH anyway.
Is there any other champion that is just as effective levels 9-13 as Olaf after only building Warmogs and Frozen Heart?
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On July 10 2014 02:22 Ghost-z wrote: This thread should be about how to gain the most value from Olaf's kit every single game and not whether he is OP or UP.
That said I prefer CDR boots after Frozen Heart to complete my 40% CDR build (5 from offence mastery). It believe it gives me the strongest two item timing with Warmogs & FH. I try to maximize aggressive fights mid-game because your damage spikes with low CD E's (everyone's HP still low enough) and you have a strong HP pool to hedge off magic damage burst and nearly 200 armor for tanking the tower shots for the team. Frozen Heart's 20% AS slow makes any attack speed based carry cry because they barely have a zeal at this point in the game. You also have plenty of sustain with Warmogs passive and W so you can pressure a 2nd objective (dragon or red/blue buff) immediately after taking a tower before going back to base.
I start Doran's shield which synergies well with his E (HP and regen) and again with my runes which are flat armor reds, flat armor yellows, MR per level blues, move speed quints.
Recent changes that "helped" Olaf: Doran's blade nerf helps if you play my tank style since now Doran's shield has a bigger level 1 advantage and the Randuins nerf because I prefer FH anyway.
Is there any other champion that is just as effective levels 9-13 as Olaf after only building Warmogs and Frozen Heart?
That's what it was before everyone started going crazy. I'm not positive on the math but I really do feel FH to giant belt to Spirt Visage is a much better build path for olaf if you go the tanky route.
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I prefer the giant's belt first unless I'm against a full AD top and Jungle then I will opt for the Glacial rush. I never like going for Spirit Visage unless you have lots of heals or lifesteal. Sure, if your rushing Bork or Hyrda then yes Spirit Visage is a great MR item but other than those two items I think its wasteful on Olaf.
I don't need the CDR because my build already has 40% so I'd rather get BV which allows me to tank more and go a little deeper before having to pop his Ult. If you do need the 10% CDR then I believe Locket is much better than SV. It costs only 50 gold more, but you get more HP with the shield active and you sacrifice 15 MR (regen is wasted stat during fights) for the team AoE shield and MR. Locket in my Opinion has much more value.
My major MR item after the Warmogs/FH core depends on their team comp. It's either BV (tons of Magic dps) or Maw of Malmortius (little magic dps).
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On July 10 2014 03:56 Ghost-z wrote: I prefer the giant's belt first unless I'm against a full AD top and Jungle then I will opt for the Glacial rush. I never like going for Spirit Visage unless you have lots of heals or lifesteal. Sure, if your rushing Bork or Hyrda then yes Spirit Visage is a great MR item but other than those two items I think its wasteful on Olaf.
I don't need the CDR because my build already has 40% so I'd rather get BV which allows me to tank more and go a little deeper before having to pop his Ult. If you do need the 10% CDR then I believe Locket is much better than SV. It costs only 50 gold more, but you get more HP with the shield active and you sacrifice 15 MR (regen is wasted stat during fights) for the team AoE shield and MR. Locket in my Opinion has much more value.
My major MR item after the Warmogs/FH core depends on their team comp. It's either BV (tons of Magic dps) or Maw of Malmortius (little magic dps). He does get 21% lifesteal + increased healing on W so i dont think its a waste, obviously alot better with Bork tho
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On July 10 2014 05:35 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2014 03:56 Ghost-z wrote: I prefer the giant's belt first unless I'm against a full AD top and Jungle then I will opt for the Glacial rush. I never like going for Spirit Visage unless you have lots of heals or lifesteal. Sure, if your rushing Bork or Hyrda then yes Spirit Visage is a great MR item but other than those two items I think its wasteful on Olaf.
I don't need the CDR because my build already has 40% so I'd rather get BV which allows me to tank more and go a little deeper before having to pop his Ult. If you do need the 10% CDR then I believe Locket is much better than SV. It costs only 50 gold more, but you get more HP with the shield active and you sacrifice 15 MR (regen is wasted stat during fights) for the team AoE shield and MR. Locket in my Opinion has much more value.
My major MR item after the Warmogs/FH core depends on their team comp. It's either BV (tons of Magic dps) or Maw of Malmortius (little magic dps). He does get 21% lifesteal + increased healing on W so i dont think its a waste, obviously alot better with Bork tho I had forgotten about the "enhanced" healing on his W so SV is better than I gave it credit for but I still think buying it for the regen/healing is a waste unless you plan to stack life steal from another item (Bork) because SV is only for "self heals" which means it does nothing if Soraka heals Olaf.
Building Bork into SV/FH is probably better against teams with low burst otherwise I still feel like I need a giants belt item.
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"Olaf Undertow ( Q ) cooldown reduced to 7 from 8 seconds Vicious Strikes ( W ) increased healing from all sources changed to 1% for every 2% of health missing from 1% for every 2.5% of health missing. Ragnarok ( R ) cooldown lowered to 100/90/80 from 120/100/80"
PBE MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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I definitely feel like the latest batch of changes makes it somewhat worthwhile to play Olaf again. He desperately needed more lane strength given how much has shifted in the meta over the last ten patches or so.
I feel like I can use Ragnarok when I actually want to, instead of absolutely having to save it and be very careful about it. The cooldown at level 1 was so obnoxiously long, and its really noticeable when his ult is more in line with others. The viscous strikes upgrade lets me use armor penetration runes more easily, which makes the axes hurt a lot more. And the undertow change makes missing axes a little less punishing (but isn't overly oppressive for your opponent due to the mana cost).
All in all, it makes things so much easier in the laning phase. If you're good at Olaf, he's going to beat most melee champions now (except for probably Irelia and maybe Gragas), and fairly hard too. I was pleasantly surprised at how good the changes felt.
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I was able to beat an Irelia in lane right after these small buffs. You can bully her early in levels 1-3 but after level 5 she starts to gain the advantage in a straight 1v1. I was able to bully her out of lane early and later she did the same to me but the trick to winning the lane is to out sustain her mana pool with your W and E. Once she runs oom you can pop ghost-ult for an easy kill. I was running Ghost/Flash because I think Olaf doesn't gain much from Ignite/Exhaust because he is low burst, Ghost is a must and Flash>E is a great execute.
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So... jungle Olaf.
I picked up J4 a few months ago when still playing to complement Nautilus (comp dependant) and Vi (bug RNG dependant), but considering how he's doing now there's a high likeliness he'll get banned or picked by the opponent. Olaf was also one of my favourite champions until Riot gutted him, and even when Smash reworked him he still wasn't quite there, and now the competition top is just way too strong for him and as an "hybrid" he doesn't provide enough compared to them with the farm. But it seems like he's having a resurgence in the jungle so if that means I can play him without gimping myself and the team, I'll jump on it.
AD/armour/scaling CDR/AD, 21-9-0, WQQ and starting Gromp? With all his AS steroids I assume starting krugs is nice too. Smite/Ghost since we're talking Olaf.
Stalker's Blade + boots -> Juggernaut -> Warmogs or something, stacking tankiness and CDR on him since he won't have the farm to build damage and tankiness from the jungle? Stalker's Blade to enhance his ganks with the slow, I assume no need for Ranger's Trailblazer since he clears petty fast. WQQEQR R>Q>E>W for the skill order?
I'm also curious about what makes him get picked, apart from good clear and decent burst early on. Chaining Undertows and the permaslow that helps against current FotM that likes kiting? I don't recall him doing particularly well against Lee and especially Jarvan, so I assume he's not picked because of that the way Graves is picked because he's supposedly good in lane against the popular marksmen?
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Scip legitimately believes that Jungle Olaf is the strongest thing in the game right now.
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I know of the infinity damage thing, but I meant in a more serious manner. Olaf doesn't provide much utility or as powerful early ganks as others (especially in short lanes where you don't necessarily need to flash the Undertow) but I'm still seeing him, both in soloQ (on stream, I haven't done my placements yet) or in competitive. There's gotta be a rreason, apart from "Rek'Sai and J4 were banned and enemy team 1st picked Lee".
Putting Scip's posts from GD here so they aren't lost:
I go 9/21/0 masteries and flat AD quints+marks, flat CDR blues and eith scaling armor or scaling HP yellows (depending on the enemy teamcomp).
Depends on what phase of the game it is. When you are level6-9ish, when you are on your way to getting warrior enchantment or got it already, you are a massive damage dealer. You don't want to be focused, because you are somewhat squishy but you have pretty much the highest damage in the entire game, so wait around until the fight starts, and start wrecking the melees or whoever gets split off with your axes and autoattacks. Once you get Righteous Glory, you are still a massive damage dealer, but Righteous Glory really allows you to get on top of the squishies. It depends on your teamcomp, if you have other melees to dive with you (like Leona, Irelia, Gnar), you might just want to run at their squishies with them and focus them down very quickly. If you are rocking double AP with something like Rumble, you probably want to play it very similiar to the lvl6-9 teamfights, and just focus the melees, and use Righteous Glory to allow your team to fight in a better position and get better picks. In the lategame, after you get a tanky item or 2, you are no longer a massive damage dealer. Now your teamfighting style depends on both enemy teamcomp and your teamcomp. If the enemy has assasins like Fizz or Leblanc that can totally wreck your squishies regardless of your involvement, it might the best to rush the enemy squishies in response. If your backline can survive the onslaught (maybe you have sufficient countermeasures like Lulu Janna or something), then focus melees or whoever comes close. If the enemy team doesn't have such powerful assasins, you probably still want to focus the melees, unless their backline is both vulnerable and stronger than yours. There are tons of circumstances I haven't mentioned, but I think this is the gist of it. Olaf isn't really any weaker in teamfights than other junglers are imo. I suspect you might find him weak in teamfights due to inappropriate use of axes. You can lose 1000's of damage by throwing it a bit too far or off to a side.
The assumed build is Stalker's, Warriors, Righteous Glory, tanky items (mostly Locket, Randuins, perhaps GA, Thormail).
Never build mercs, they're trash on Olaf. Go ninja tabi every time, if they have double AP and you're not at all afraid of their autoattack damage, just built tabi after Locket. Don't built FH either, you don't need the mana after you get Righteous Glory and you're already sitting on 32.5% CDR from runes+masteries+warrior+locket. Trailblazer is trash on Olaf even on the first back, I just get Stalker's in case I want to gank or fight, the speedup for yourself is massive in both ganks or fights. If you're focusing melees, you should probably wait until you are melee range to throw your axe, then proceed depending on what they do. If they start running away from you, well, that's simple. If they want to run past you, you go past them to pick up your axe and reevaluate whether you want to go deeper or start chasing the melee towards your team, which is the more likely choice here. In a small fight, you probably want to use your ult just before you hit your first axe, provided you can follow up properly, in the early and midgame then 40-60 AD buff is absolutely murder. In bigger teamfights you probably want to wait to just before you get hit by CC or a reposition to maximize the useful time your ult is up.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
I do genuinely think that Olaf is one of the if not the most powerful jungler right now, otherwise I wouldn't be playing him The infinity damage is obviously a joke but his damage IS pretty cray cray
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Yeah alaric, just because you played a champion, liked it, and got stomped, doesn't mean that champion is bad olaf has a pretty good kit he just lacks some stickiness and tankiness which he needs to get from items
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When Olaf was reworked he was still fairly weak, and the FotM stuff didn't go too well for him, plus I hadn't played him in months after that, so I stuck to my current picks (I alternate champs like Irelia/Jax/Olaf top whenever they happen to be good, and I pause when the FotM is too much effort to deal with compared to my opponent's side). I mean, do you really think Olaf would thrive against Cass, Kass, Gnar, Lissandra, etc.? Actually he probably trucks Cass and does well vs Kass pre-6.
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Yeah I remember kerp playing olaf in soloq and would just get ghostblade active run in with ult and destroy this cass every teamfight she got so mad.
Kass isn't that bad for olaf, you just ignore him and his damage isn't a problem for you until he's fed You're more scared of someone who can rek you with damage like ahri or something gnar is op against everyone, irrelevant lissandra is weak against olaf because she relies almost exclusively on AoE CC to be effective in teamfights
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I'm kind of surprised at how good Olaf is in the jungle... top lane has been getting a lot more hostile for him with crap like Azir, Gnar, and Cass floating around (hard to lane against them effectively). I've been thinking lately that top lane Olaf is more of a liability than good (which a shame, because he had some patches where he was somewhat competent, then new champions/season jack that all up).
Think I'm going to switch to jungling him and see how that goes.
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On February 04 2015 05:55 Slayer91 wrote: Yeah I remember kerp playing olaf in soloq and would just get ghostblade active run in with ult and destroy this cass every teamfight she got so mad.
Kass isn't that bad for olaf, you just ignore him and his damage isn't a problem for you until he's fed You're more scared of someone who can rek you with damage like ahri or something gnar is op against everyone, irrelevant lissandra is weak against olaf because she relies almost exclusively on AoE CC to be effective in teamfights Oh I meant in lane, as in "I wouldn't pick up Olaf for top lane atm because the FotM stuff beats him and/or provides more" (kinda like as tanky as he can get, Maokai/pre-nerf Alistar/Gragas were at least as tanky and provided more cc/immediate impact on fights, same with Sion and Gnar now. Without all the mobility, pre-Olaf-ing Olaf would be prob up there though, since the meta is back to full tanks and that's part of what made him super popular. Now he's got less damage if he doesn't build an offensive item (and more if he does but he can't really afford it) so other picks are better than him at that particular thing.
TL;DR the idea is "if I wanted to pick Olaf top I'd have to struggle against the FotM, and other picks do what he does, but better and with a side dish, however if he does fine in the jungle then it's worth trying my hand at it".
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I'm a believer now. I played 2 games of jungle Olaf, second game the entire enemy team lined up for my axes and I landed like 3-4 4 man axes and just ran the train on them and got a quadra (would have been a penta, but someone finished off the 5th). Haven't had a game this good all season. Was surprisingly robust in the face of invade shenanigans in game 1 too (our support got dced for the first 8 minutes so their Blitz was basically being a dick to me the entire time). It feels so much better than top lane Olaf, it's not even funny.
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Yup, one of my concerns when posting wasn't "is his damage good?" but also "what happens if Lee or J4 decides to invade you or tries to countergank, are you robust enough to handle it?". Sure I play(ed) Nautilus but being resilient to this kind of things from currently popular jungler is important too.
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who cares if lee or j4 invades or counterganks
what is it with bad junglers and worrying about invades nearly all the time they lose more than you lose unless they get a kill those champs get low hp doing clears anyway so its not like they can easily steal jungle on your side of the map when your team can more easily collapse and you can farm somewhere else too if you want
dont' know what olaf has to worry about counterganks he's one of the best duelists and counterganks are mostly just you overextending or choosing obvious baits (but sometimes it happens legit)
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The new Cinderhulk is just too good not to jungle Olaf without it. However I'm torn between two jungle builds. The first is to just get Rangers/Cinder into Randuins for tanky HP synergy. But Stalkers/Cinder is much better for ganks and sticking to enemies. Olaf already clears fast enough and can sustain well enough that Rangers is not required but without some sort of regen he can't come out of the jungle all full HP. So in order to keep my HP full after clearing camps I've built warmogs as a 2nd item. The warmogs regen and synergy with Cinders feels so good between fights and in small ganks/skirmishes. I just worry about 5v5 fights happening before I can buy armor/resists.
So what are you opinions: Am I sacrificing too much by not getting armor/resist in my 2nd major item? Am I overvaluing the Stalkers smite on champions after the nerf?
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A completed warmogs is pretty far into the game to be worrying too much about taking damage while clearing, I can't imagine the regen being significantly more than the amount of damage reduced while clearing by the armour of, say, Randuins. If you're going for a flatHP item, I would recommend Righteous Glory over Warmogs on Olaf specifically.
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Why woul;dn't you build stalkers?
You still kill stuff faster with Stalkers than most Junglers do with rangers.
Also, if you can land a Stalkers before having to use Q, that guy is dead unless he can flash over a wall and you running ghost. Pretty cut and dry.
I also think you are worrying about your HP loss from camps too much. I feel like you straight up dont have to worry about it after these jangle monster nerfs. The Jungle sucks now. lol.
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When jungling Olaf do you build him full tank or do you take a damage item, and if so when?
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On March 19 2015 18:55 Osmoses wrote: When jungling Olaf do you build him full tank or do you take a damage item, and if so when?
I've tried Cinderhulk tank with Bork and Warrior with full tank, I still find that I get blown up late though
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ArPen/AD better because early game you do much more with Q spam than autos. You don't need Cinderhulk to clear fast so it'd be about the damage in fights and the %bonus HP passive. It means you scale better defensively, what with the ~160 bonus HP on Glory as second item and all, but you won't be as strong during the first skirmishes. I'd say it's not until your 3rd item (Cinderhulk -> Glory -> 3rd) that you really start being better.
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I've started building him full tank ever since Cinderhulk became a thing. If they only have one magic damage threat I'll grab Hexdrinker everytime. I didn't realize Glory also has decent sustain built into the item so I'll try building that.
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On March 19 2015 18:56 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 18:55 Osmoses wrote: When jungling Olaf do you build him full tank or do you take a damage item, and if so when? I've tried Cinderhulk tank with Bork and Warrior with full tank, I still find that I get blown up late though Yeah, I'm asking because compared to when I jungle Sion I just never at any point in the game feel "tanky" with Olaf. With Sion I can just charge in, do W, do Q, do E, chase a bit and maybe then I'm low if they focused me, but with Olaf I'm near dead before I even get close enough to hit someone.
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Love the concept of Cinderhulk + Warmogs for the synergy. Might try it out.
I would definitely go Stalkers on Olaf.
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On March 19 2015 22:39 Osmoses wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2015 18:56 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On March 19 2015 18:55 Osmoses wrote: When jungling Olaf do you build him full tank or do you take a damage item, and if so when? I've tried Cinderhulk tank with Bork and Warrior with full tank, I still find that I get blown up late though Yeah, I'm asking because compared to when I jungle Sion I just never at any point in the game feel "tanky" with Olaf. With Sion I can just charge in, do W, do Q, do E, chase a bit and maybe then I'm low if they focused me, but with Olaf I'm near dead before I even get close enough to hit someone. That's because you can press R with Sion, you need someone to go in with you (or initiate so you reach melee before they fight back) as Olaf.
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On March 19 2015 13:00 Ghost-z wrote: The new Cinderhulk is just too good not to jungle Olaf without it. However I'm torn between two jungle builds. The first is to just get Rangers/Cinder into Randuins for tanky HP synergy. But Stalkers/Cinder is much better for ganks and sticking to enemies. Olaf already clears fast enough and can sustain well enough that Rangers is not required but without some sort of regen he can't come out of the jungle all full HP. So in order to keep my HP full after clearing camps I've built warmogs as a 2nd item. The warmogs regen and synergy with Cinders feels so good between fights and in small ganks/skirmishes. I just worry about 5v5 fights happening before I can buy armor/resists.
So what are you opinions: Am I sacrificing too much by not getting armor/resist in my 2nd major item? Am I overvaluing the Stalkers smite on champions after the nerf?
you shouldn't be going rangers or warmogs righteous glory and stalkers are both massively better wtf just buy a potion or two if you are worried about hp
cinderhulk might be worse than warmogs doesn't seem like you get a lot of use out of the burn damage on him maybe thats why you are low hp you take too long to clear camps. warrior clears faster not sure if its better though
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MYM Horro just had a really good game on Olaf in the EU LCS today.
His build order (Ghost/Smite): Stalkers>>Cinderhulk>>NinjaTabi>>GiantsBelt>>Locket>>RightGlory>>Warmogs
I'm really liking this build however instead of sitting on a giants belt for most of the game I'm going to swap in a Sight Stone because the vision is just too important to let my solo q teammates do it. Olaf does get free resists from his ult before you pop it so HP stacking feels good on him.
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I liked sitting on the Giant's Belt because the Cinderhulk passive makes the Belt such an efficient purchase, but as was pointed out earlier, the Warmog's regen passive isn't such a big deal early on.
So get the Giant's Belt, but then complete a couple of other, more useful finished items first, and complete up to the Warmog's later.
Or if you're massively far ahead, troll the game a little and turn that Belt into a Frozen Mallet.
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I just played a game going Stalkers -> Warriors -> RG -> Locket -> Ohmwrecker. I think at some points their team was actually in more danger under their turrets than in the open :3
Cinderhulk seems quite strong with its current numbers, it definitely has arguments in its favor over Warrior.
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I been going cinder hulk into RG.
I think warrior might be better still. Cinderhulk doesn't really enable you to dive any better so I still think warriors gives you more early game presence and farming ability.
That being said., I'd rather be 6 item olaf with Cinderhulk than warrior's. So.... lol.
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Played with a jungle Olaf just now that did well and went triforce first. When he hit w his attacks were a blur.
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I think warrior's is still a fine build on Olaf if you already have enough tankiness in your team comp or if you lack hard carries. But in the case of a carry top laner I think you need the beef in the jungle and that flexibility really helps Olaf in solo Q.
In other news: Olaf is drawing bans in EU LCS in order to enable the "protect the Kog" team comp.
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On March 21 2015 02:21 Ghost-z wrote: I think warrior's is still a fine build on Olaf if you already have enough tankiness in your team comp or if you lack hard carries. But in the case of a carry top laner I think you need the beef in the jungle and that flexibility really helps Olaf in solo Q.
In other news: Olaf is drawing bans in EU LCS in order to enable the "protect the Kog" team comp.
Why not just leave Kalista and olaf up, pick 4 protect one comp with no adc and have Kalista laugh at olaf like he's a cute little puppy dog?
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What do you build against Olaf if you're against him top and you want to be full tank?
Half his damage is True so armor is only effective against half of it.
So then I can take a look at the full health items Mallet doesn't work against his ult. RG works, the slow won't but that's fine. 650 health and some mana sustain. Warmogs? I'm not sure if you have that many periods out of combat to regen though.
Ended up rushing sunfire. It helped me push and I won a single duel where I had minions and he didn't.
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whats the matchup? armour isnt necessarily that bad in engagements but if you get harassed its not good
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On March 22 2015 06:02 Slayer91 wrote: whats the matchup? armour isnt necessarily that bad in engagements but if you get harassed its not good Let's say it's Garen vs Olaf. I don't want to admit who I was really building full tank on Q_Q
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thats irrelevant you go sunfire on garen against almost everyone you're going to need to do better than that
who the fuck cares about who you were builiding tank on holy shit we're not going to call your mom to heckle you do you want to try to learn something or what
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On March 22 2015 07:32 Slayer91 wrote: thats irrelevant you go sunfire on garen against almost everyone you're going to need to do better than that
who the fuck cares about who you were builiding tank on holy shit we're not going to call your mom to heckle you do you want to try to learn something or what Xin Zhao. There.
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tank on xin zhao isnt even that bad sunfire used to be what people go on him because he has to go in hard and his base damages are good enough for fighting with just sunfire in lane
its a tough call xin zhao vs olaf you pretty much have to all in him I think, probably you want to get phage+dorans blade o something like that with hp+ad
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Australia18228 Posts
I think Randuin would be best. You're gonna be constantly duelling since you're both melee and Olaf's strength comes from his passive+W AAs when it comes to fighting
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On March 22 2015 08:22 Slayer91 wrote: tank on xin zhao isnt even that bad sunfire used to be what people go on him because he has to go in hard and his base damages are good enough for fighting with just sunfire in lane
its a tough call xin zhao vs olaf you pretty much have to all in him I think, probably you want to get phage+dorans blade o something like that with hp+ad
frozen mallet?
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ud neeed some way to push a lane anyway so the choice is between hydra and sunfire and i dont think hydra is a tank item so sunfire is the only option left. I dont think phage dorans are tank items either.
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Pay attention to what Olaf is maxing first. Against E max build HP first. Against Q max build Armor first.
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