Stork, Light, Leta - what on earth happened guys? You all simultaneously dropped the ball.
Zero - if you had beaten effort you would have been on this list - however you didn't, and you've only really beaten scrubs. Start beating some top tier players and we'll talk.
Edit: The message I received from the TL bot was worth it!
Edit2: Good PR as far as I can tell. #1 was crystal clear, #2 is ok I guess, I wouldn't know anyone better suited at the very least. #3 - #10 are very very hard to call this month, but I think you did a good job.
On May 03 2010 21:20 SuperArc wrote: Hiya is one of the greatest TvP timing attackers we have atm and you call him robot? o.O Otherwise great PR! Nothing to disagree.
and did you count any of May's games in this PR?
I don't think they carried that much weight in the grand scheme of things, but I did consider them.
On May 03 2010 21:20 SuperArc wrote: Hiya is one of the greatest TvP timing attackers we have atm and you call him robot? o.O Otherwise great PR! Nothing to disagree.
and did you count any of May's games in this PR?
I don't think they carried that much weight in the grand scheme of things, but I did consider them.
I only asked because Snow would have deserved a CBNC imo. Results and play has been very nice.
On May 03 2010 21:20 SuperArc wrote: Hiya is one of the greatest TvP timing attackers we have atm and you call him robot? o.O Otherwise great PR! Nothing to disagree.
and did you count any of May's games in this PR?
I don't think they carried that much weight in the grand scheme of things, but I did consider them.
I only asked because Snow would have deserved a CBNC imo. Results and play has been very nice.
I agree with SuperArc that Snow would deserve CNBC. He has looked incredibly solid.
Nice PR overall, pretty much agree with all of it.
Is your play style changing because of your desire to win in the individual leagues? It's actually more because I had a lot of time. With lots of opportunity to practice, I was able to invest lots of time and master this kind of play. I want to become more unpredictable and to do that I need to have a variety of play styles. For sure it's a lot harder than focusing on one strategy, but I'll work hard from now on to improve that.
Plexa, most Hiya TvP's end in timing pushes.
He realized that he needed to vary his tvp up more so he starts throwing in more managment/late game tvp's and then gets called a robot?
Hiya definitely has his own aggressive flare in tvp. Plus, Protoss can't just mindlessly 12nex against him like they do every Terran after he bbs'd Shuttle on Triathlon.
Hahaha lots of typos this time, is it because of the situation/incident which caused the delay? (though this was quick, FS' PRs were always later)
I don't even feel that Jaedong should be in rank 2, it should be
1) Flash 2) Flash 3) Flash 4) Jaedong
Feels that way, from the way Flash has been performing and the way that Jaedong's spotlight got stolen like a lollipop. Besides, the difference in ELO ranking scores reflects that.
I just don't get the feeling that Jaedong is a major threat to Flash anymore, until he finds a way to destroy Flash's timings and builds.
I'm not a Flash fanboy (that much), and I love Fantasy far more for his playstyle, but Flash just gives this huge aura and blots everyone else in the PR out. It's like expecting to see his face in every box from 1 - 10, and a long, continuous explanation of why he's in every rank and how all other players fall short.
Wow, when was the last time 6 out of 10 players in the power ranking were the same race?
This ranking looks pretty good over all though, except that I do think HiyA's PvT has personality to spare, and I didn't think Really would drop out of even a CNBC mention.
On May 03 2010 21:42 conTAgi0n wrote: Wow, when was the last time 6 out of 10 players in the power ranking were the same race?
This ranking looks pretty good over all though, except that I do think HiyA's PvT has personality to spare, and I didn't think Really would drop out of even a CNBC mention.
6/10 Protoss in November(?) 2008. However there have been a lot of recent Power Ranks with 5/10 being one race.
Hrmm, the problem with Jaedong is that he doesn't play well if he doesn't practice, but then again, if he practices, he just doesn't have time to rest, which also fucks him.
I dont see MVP falling off the ranks, he seams to me like hiya, an average player that could take out the top players but is never going to ammount to anything amazing, i see him floating around the 7-8 spot for the next few months Thanks for the rank plexa
I think you went abit too defensive on flashes #1 spot for a guy who played 17 wins - 4 losses (80.95%) this month. His recent tvt has been closer than usual but it doesn't warrent the comment "It's going to take a lot more to knock Flash from his #1..." as if something actually pointed to him losing his spot...
I'd want to read something about his 70%+ in all matchups, his incredible april performance and his extreme kespa lead and record
Other than that, good ranking. I like that midas is getting a high spot. I too can't understand where he suddenly got his skill back from..
It's no surprise to see so many Terrans so high in the rankings. 4 out of the top 5 vT ELO's belong to Terrans. 5 out of the top 6 vZ ELO's belong to Terrans. Only in vP is the ELO ranking not dominated by Terrans, but Protoss players have not been looking that impressive lately. And even with Kal, his play is the most consistent of the Protoss players and I don't think he has a chance at all against Flash or JD. Just look at his history against those two: 1-5 lifetime record vs Flash, 3-13 lifetime record vs Jaedong.
On May 03 2010 23:46 StylishVODs wrote: I think you went abit too defensive on flashes #1 spot for a guy who played 17 wins - 4 losses (80.95%) this month. His recent tvt has been closer than usual but it doesn't warrent the comment "It's going to take a lot more to knock Flash from his #1..." as if something actually pointed to him losing his spot...
I'd want to read something about his 70%+ in all matchups, his incredible april performance and his extreme kespa lead and record
Other than that, good ranking. I like that midas is getting a high spot. I too can't understand where he suddenly got his skill back from..
Ya, agreed; Flash is in both leagues, got much better stats in April than #2 (Flash 80% with 21 games played, JD 66% with 15 games played), broke the Kespa point record, has a 140 point lead in ELO and he's is 8-2, 9-1 and 9-1 in his MU's. There should've been a lot more praise of how good he is.
On May 03 2010 23:46 StylishVODs wrote: I think you went abit too defensive on flashes #1 spot for a guy who played 17 wins - 4 losses (80.95%) this month. His recent tvt has been closer than usual but it doesn't warrent the comment "It's going to take a lot more to knock Flash from his #1..." as if something actually pointed to him losing his spot...
I'd want to read something about his 70%+ in all matchups, his incredible april performance and his extreme kespa lead and record
Other than that, good ranking. I like that midas is getting a high spot. I too can't understand where he suddenly got his skill back from..
Ya, agreed; Flash is in both leagues, got much better stats in April than #2 (Flash 80% with 21 games played, JD 66% with 15 games played), broke the Kespa point record, has a 140 point lead in ELO and he's is 8-2, 9-1 and 9-1 in his MU's. There should've been a lot more praise of how good he is.
Flash may be the best, but he hasn't been looking as solid as last month. When Jaedong had a 1000 point lead over everybody else in kespa score, he was still able to lose to people. Nothing is definite, and if he starts to tire from his rampage, he could be taken out. Nothing is definite...
I'm biased of course, but Snow has been playing extremely well recently, and EffOrt seems to have turned a corner big-time. (10-6 this month with no games in his best MU). No CBNC mentions, at least?
And then there's Pure, who is better than MVP, came out of the OSL group of death, and trashed the defending OSL finalist. Deserved a CBNC at least.
Meanwhile, MVP only went 6-3 this month, which granted, is an improvement over his normal performance, but beating BaBy and going one up on Flash is.... lucky? Signs of some improvement?
I think there really ought to be a mandated PR exclusion for Woongjin Terrans, Oz Protosses, and SKT Zergs
On May 03 2010 23:46 StylishVODs wrote: I think you went abit too defensive on flashes #1 spot for a guy who played 17 wins - 4 losses (80.95%) this month. His recent tvt has been closer than usual but it doesn't warrent the comment "It's going to take a lot more to knock Flash from his #1..." as if something actually pointed to him losing his spot...
I'd want to read something about his 70%+ in all matchups, his incredible april performance and his extreme kespa lead and record
Other than that, good ranking. I like that midas is getting a high spot. I too can't understand where he suddenly got his skill back from..
Ya, agreed; Flash is in both leagues, got much better stats in April than #2 (Flash 80% with 21 games played, JD 66% with 15 games played), broke the Kespa point record, has a 140 point lead in ELO and he's is 8-2, 9-1 and 9-1 in his MU's. There should've been a lot more praise of how good he is.
Flash may be the best, but he hasn't been looking as solid as last month. When Jaedong had a 1000 point lead over everybody else in kespa score, he was still able to lose to people. Nothing is definite, and if he starts to tire from his rampage, he could be taken out. Nothing is definite...
He was 10-1(90.91%) in March and 17-4(84.21%) in April. I'd argue that's hardly a decline at all. Your last points were just stating the obvious, of course Flash could fail, he's still human.
On May 03 2010 23:46 StylishVODs wrote: I think you went abit too defensive on flashes #1 spot for a guy who played 17 wins - 4 losses (80.95%) this month. His recent tvt has been closer than usual but it doesn't warrent the comment "It's going to take a lot more to knock Flash from his #1..." as if something actually pointed to him losing his spot...
I'd want to read something about his 70%+ in all matchups, his incredible april performance and his extreme kespa lead and record
Other than that, good ranking. I like that midas is getting a high spot. I too can't understand where he suddenly got his skill back from..
Ya, agreed; Flash is in both leagues, got much better stats in April than #2 (Flash 80% with 21 games played, JD 66% with 15 games played), broke the Kespa point record, has a 140 point lead in ELO and he's is 8-2, 9-1 and 9-1 in his MU's. There should've been a lot more praise of how good he is.
Flash may be the best, but he hasn't been looking as solid as last month. When Jaedong had a 1000 point lead over everybody else in kespa score, he was still able to lose to people. Nothing is definite, and if he starts to tire from his rampage, he could be taken out. Nothing is definite...
In April he went on a 12 game winning streak that included 5 player that are on the PR, the #3 twice, and thereby broke yet another ELO record. If that isn't being solid, then I think I must've somehow picked up an incorrect definition of the word. =/
On May 03 2010 23:46 StylishVODs wrote: I think you went abit too defensive on flashes #1 spot for a guy who played 17 wins - 4 losses (80.95%) this month. His recent tvt has been closer than usual but it doesn't warrent the comment "It's going to take a lot more to knock Flash from his #1..." as if something actually pointed to him losing his spot...
I'd want to read something about his 70%+ in all matchups, his incredible april performance and his extreme kespa lead and record
Other than that, good ranking. I like that midas is getting a high spot. I too can't understand where he suddenly got his skill back from..
Ya, agreed; Flash is in both leagues, got much better stats in April than #2 (Flash 80% with 21 games played, JD 66% with 15 games played), broke the Kespa point record, has a 140 point lead in ELO and he's is 8-2, 9-1 and 9-1 in his MU's. There should've been a lot more praise of how good he is.
Flash may be the best, but he hasn't been looking as solid as last month. When Jaedong had a 1000 point lead over everybody else in kespa score, he was still able to lose to people. Nothing is definite, and if he starts to tire from his rampage, he could be taken out. Nothing is definite...
He was 10-1(90.91%) in March and 17-4(84.21%) in April. I'd argue that's hardly a decline at all. Your last points were just stating the obvious, of course Flash could fail, he's still human.
Or is he! Nice PR, hopefully MVP will vanish next month.
Very nice Power Ranking. I may have CBNC'd Effort, but other than that, it looks perfect.
I'm especially grateful for the pointing out of Flash's usage of mines. It's not something I've had my eye on, but now that you mention it (and me rewatching a game of his), it could be better.
On May 04 2010 00:58 Neo_ly1983 wrote: Thanks for writing the rank. I have translated this Power Rank into Chinese. The following link is the Chinese version:
On May 03 2010 23:46 StylishVODs wrote: I think you went abit too defensive on flashes #1 spot for a guy who played 17 wins - 4 losses (80.95%) this month. His recent tvt has been closer than usual but it doesn't warrent the comment "It's going to take a lot more to knock Flash from his #1..." as if something actually pointed to him losing his spot...
I'd want to read something about his 70%+ in all matchups, his incredible april performance and his extreme kespa lead and record
Other than that, good ranking. I like that midas is getting a high spot. I too can't understand where he suddenly got his skill back from..
Ya, I felt exactly the same way when I read the #1 reasoning. I just didn't quite know how to put it in words at that moment. A little less criticism and a little more praise for Flash plz. He has earned it!
On May 04 2010 01:41 TwoToneTerran wrote: Snow did nothing but proleague.
Then again, Sea is on the rank so.
All we want is a CBNC. Snow played really great games last month. And if he did take today's games into consideration Snow deserves it even more so, especially since Sea still has a high rank.
On May 04 2010 01:41 TwoToneTerran wrote: Snow did nothing but proleague.
Then again, Sea is on the rank so.
All we want is a CBNC. Snow played really great games last month. And if he did take today's games into consideration Snow deserves it even more so, especially since Sea still has a high rank.
Why would you put someone on CNBC if they are a total rookie that still plays dream league and only went 3-1 in official games in the month?
I really think Pure should be at least CBNC. The only argument I can think of against is + Show Spoiler +
His first OSL game against Fantasy where he ran into mines every two seconds! But he redeems himself by cheesing Fantasy. However, he played two legitimate games right after that to get himself into the next round. That makes up for it.
. Other than that, I think he's not getting enough credit. Well, we can always hope for next month!
And I also agree Flash should get 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, just one for each matchup.
On May 04 2010 01:41 TwoToneTerran wrote: Snow did nothing but proleague.
Then again, Sea is on the rank so.
All we want is a CBNC. Snow played really great games last month. And if he did take today's games into consideration Snow deserves it even more so, especially since Sea still has a high rank.
Why would you put someone on CNBC if they are a total rookie that still plays dream league and only went 3-1 in official games in the month?
That's why I asked if Plexa took today's games into consideration... And Snow is out of the B-team now. 4-1 against team's aces is incredible if you ask me.
On May 04 2010 01:59 dukethegold wrote: Sorry to be picky about it.
But you spelled "believe" wrong in Flash and Kal sections.
blame my spell check i must have believe in my dictionary i should fix that
@snow, sure he shows potential at the moment. And if there were a section for "up and comers" he'd go there. I don't think he's CBNC just yet.
On May 03 2010 23:46 StylishVODs wrote: I think you went abit too defensive on flashes #1 spot for a guy who played 17 wins - 4 losses (80.95%) this month. His recent tvt has been closer than usual but it doesn't warrent the comment "It's going to take a lot more to knock Flash from his #1..." as if something actually pointed to him losing his spot...
I'd want to read something about his 70%+ in all matchups, his incredible april performance and his extreme kespa lead and record
Other than that, good ranking. I like that midas is getting a high spot. I too can't understand where he suddenly got his skill back from..
Actually his TvT's have looked like that for a long time now. It's nothing new for Flash rather people are only just starting to see it for themselves recently - hence why I put it in there this month.
On May 04 2010 02:03 Plexa wrote: Actually his TvT's have looked like that for a long time now. It's nothing new for Flash rather people are only just starting to see it for themselves recently - hence why I put it in there this month.
I just felt, after reading the explenation for #1, that you're defending Flash's nr1 (as if he didn't do that well this month). "Flash might be running low on gas" gets me thinking that he's slowly starting to fall back.
Flash had a 12 game winstreak this month.
A dominating 80%+ troughout the month.
New highest ever ELO record.
Kespa ranks showed highest rank ever.
Now have 70%+ in all matchups all-time.
A little more talk about some of that would have been nice It was long ago since we saw someone dominate like flash has this month (and previous months). No one else was even close this month.
Maybe I'm overanalyzing this, but this explenation for his spot really felt out of place at moments..
I'm really not liking Sea's rank. I'm as big a fan of Sea as the next guy, as long as the next guy isn't FakeSteve (or, apparently, Plexa), but #5 just seems too high. Yes, he had the nice game against Violet at the beginning of the month... but losing to Chavi and hyvaa just speaks volumes about how good Sea isn't right now. And yes, I know hyvaa beat Flash, I still don't think he's a really good player.
It's not that Sea doesn't belong at all - but if I were doing the rank, I'd be inclined to switch Sea and HiyA.
On May 04 2010 02:41 HwaSaL wrote: have you guys noticed that it's been about two months since jaedong played against a protoss?
All of us Jaedong fans know that... Jaedong never faces protoss. -_-
Yeah that sucks:/ Watching jaedong ZvP was pure art. This is why I'd really like to see his ZvT better than it has been lately. Jaedong only had to practice for 2 matchups for two months... a 50% matchup isn't going to cut it. (this month 3-3)
On May 04 2010 02:41 HwaSaL wrote: have you guys noticed that it's been about two months since jaedong played against a protoss?
All of us Jaedong fans know that... Jaedong never faces protoss. -_-
Yeah that sucks:/ Watching jaedong ZvP was pure art. This is why I'd really like to see his ZvT better than it has been lately. Jaedong only had to practice for 2 matchups for two months...
Well he has to practice ZvP for Pl. But yeah his game sense should be way better in ZvT. I wish all his games were like the one vs Midas..
It's clear what ranks Plexa is more sure about. The amount writen about ranks 1-4 is about double what was written for 4-10.
Which is why Sea went 7-5 this month, lost his only league, and moved to #5. I call bias. And Baby went 7-6 this month, dropped a league, and mostly maintained his rank. But there's really not much written about either, and I actually understand that, beyond Flash/Jaedong/Kal, it's a crapshoot.
But Plexa, you can't argue that Pure is terrible, and then put MVP and great on the ranking. In the realm of life-long mediocre players, only one of them is in the OSL semis. And EffOrt went 10-6 this month, advanced to the OSL semis, and has played some hot ZvZs recently. Snow went 3-1 in proleague, beating Kal, Leta, and Really, and has gone undefeated (12-0) in Dream League, which, even if you count those wins as a quarter of the value of proleague wins is impressive.
Any PR with great and MVP on it is a problem, but there's are some noticeable snubs as well.
But LOL, I just remembered how long it took bisu to fall off the PR, even when he was sucking bad.
Simple note: people who make PRs are ultra subjective. If movie gets up there he is still "unrefined". If pure wins, he still sucks. If shine wins, god help us. Snow will get no mention, even if he's on a tare the previous month, because he's a "new comer".
Okay, Sea lost to free. Big deal. Free simply played really well and Sea made some uncharacteristic mistakes.
Uncharacteristic? This is what Sea does. He plays well in proleague, qualifies for individual leagues and then fails hard out of them. If Sea were a bit worse in proleague, he would be the terran version of mumyung.
Sea being #5 is kind of silly now that the individual leagues are fully under way and once again he's nowhere near a Ro4.
Also, where's Effort? He deserves at least a CBNC and at best a low ranking. He's in the Ro4 and he's not some crazy fluke like type-b --- Effort has some credibility.
On May 04 2010 04:58 pathy wrote: Kal is way too high for a just over 50% win-rate month
Well, Kal is the only force capable of stopping Flash in the OSL, and Jaedong is the only one capable of stopping Flash in the MSL (probably, but I don't see MVP and Free doing it). And since JD is obviously better than Kal, Kal gets #3. Who below the top 2 has a better chance of stopping the big guy?
Midas is this month's Baby and those of you who are saying Jaedong will be #1 next month, it will take much more than Flash losing a few games and Jaedong not losing. Flash has been soooo good recently a lose here or there is just a blip.
The only way Jaedong could be #1 next month is if he wins the MSL and all of his PL games while Flash loses the OSL and at least a few of his PL games. Just beating Flash in the MSL isn't even close to being enough on its own at this point (edit: a little slow).
About the PR. Free feels a little too low, Sea a little too high, IMO Hiya should be above MVP, and Great just feels... weird to have as the #2 Zerg, but then it is kinda hard to argue against his results. I'd be extremely surprised if he stays on the PR for next month though. Overall it's pretty agreeable, nothing outrageous, and this was a very though month to rank.
On May 03 2010 21:32 Crisium wrote: Movie made top 8 and top 16 in the Star leagues. Give him some credit? Ever? Midas wishes he could do that well in both.
movie never gets credit. i don't really like him, but it's not hard to tell.
I'm just going to quote this, because I also feel Flash is not being praised enough in the PR description. Not that it is some horrible mistake, Flash is praised (rightfully!) almost everywhere these days...
Good PR overall, I would only put Sea lower and I'm not sure what to do with great, but that's it.
On May 03 2010 23:46 StylishVODs wrote: I think you went abit too defensive on flashes #1 spot for a guy who played 17 wins - 4 losses (80.95%) this month. His recent tvt has been closer than usual but it doesn't warrent the comment "It's going to take a lot more to knock Flash from his #1..." as if something actually pointed to him losing his spot...
I'd want to read something about his 70%+ in all matchups, his incredible april performance and his extreme kespa lead and record
Other than that, good ranking. I like that midas is getting a high spot. I too can't understand where he suddenly got his skill back from..
Ya, agreed; Flash is in both leagues, got much better stats in April than #2 (Flash 80% with 21 games played, JD 66% with 15 games played), broke the Kespa point record, has a 140 point lead in ELO and he's is 8-2, 9-1 and 9-1 in his MU's. There should've been a lot more praise of how good he is.
Flash may be the best, but he hasn't been looking as solid as last month. When Jaedong had a 1000 point lead over everybody else in kespa score, he was still able to lose to people. Nothing is definite, and if he starts to tire from his rampage, he could be taken out. Nothing is definite...
He was 10-1(90.91%) in March and 17-4(84.21%) in April. I'd argue that's hardly a decline at all. Your last points were just stating the obvious, of course Flash could fail, he's still human.
On May 04 2010 04:02 Zeridian wrote: usually, I don't care about the PR.
But LOL, I just remembered how long it took bisu to fall off the PR, even when he was sucking bad.
Simple note: people who make PRs are ultra subjective. If movie gets up there he is still "unrefined". If pure wins, he still sucks. If shine wins, god help us.
lol @ all the people clamoring for Snow - guys, a few proleague games don't cut it. PR is usually heavily based on individual leagues.
Also Kal will demolish Effort and Flash and you doubters will all rage because obviously it will be a fluke win, and I will prepare to drink fanboy tears >:O
On May 04 2010 06:32 o[twist] wrote: whoa. i'm reading this again and great? really? great is the second-best zerg playing right now? does anybody actually believe that?
I wouldn't put him at second best, no; but you can make the argument, I think. Here's how I evaluate second-best Zerg over the last month:
1) Jaedong is clearly #1. If Starcraft was in a good place, Jaedong wouldn't be playing well enough for #2 overall - but nobody's playing that well. Overall the closest is probably Midas - which makes Jaedong #2 since he's clearly favored there (and has, you know, won a game). If Jaedong is #2 overall, then he's Zerg #1 (even if I might take Calm > Jaedong in a best-of right now - and that's a very shaky "might"). 2) Contenders for #2: EffOrt, Calm, ZerO, Kwanro, great. 3) EffOrt, Calm, ZerO, and Kwanro have an early edge because of being known ace- and starleague-caliber players, even if Calm's the only one with a medal. 4) Kwanro loses out immediately: he got knocked out of both leagues and barely has a winning record this month. 5) ZerO has an impressive-looking record: but apart from his 3-0 of his OSL group (in which Calm is the most impressive win) it's actually average - and he got totally trashed by EffOrt. No. 6) EffOrt's record is the weakest of the remaining three: he's played ZvZ and vs go.go. Here's how it breaks down: 2-2 in Proleague (all ZvZ), 3-2 vs Shine, 3-2 vs go.go, 2-0 vs ZerO. Except for the match against ZerO, that's fairly unimpressive - and ZerO is known as a mediocre ZvZer. So EffOrt's record, once examined, has very little going for it. The only redeeming factor is his matchup vs Kal, where he could conceivably advance. While knocking a plausible OSL Finalist off the list is a little weird, EffOrt just hasn't shown convincing play lately. 7) If not EffOrt, then you have to pick Calm or great. Calm's had a lot more games over the month, it took tiebreakers to knock him out of the OSL and he's winning the head-to-head currently. To me, that makes Calm #2 Zerg for the month.
8) But on the other hand, if you wanted to argue for great, you could mention: Calm did get knocked out of the OSL, great actually has a solid Proleague record, and great's MSL road (Kal, HiyA, Movie) has arguably been harder than Calm's (free, Pure, fantasy).
I'm just going to quote this, because I also feel Flash is not being praised enough in the PR description. Not that it is some horrible mistake, Flash is praised (rightfully!) almost everywhere these days...
Good PR overall, I would only put Sea lower and I'm not sure what to do with great, but that's it.
Wow, can we stick to arguing ranks and not whether "insufficient praise" is given to the #1 player?
Sometimes you guys make me embarrassed to be a flash fan
I'm just going to quote this, because I also feel Flash is not being praised enough in the PR description. Not that it is some horrible mistake, Flash is praised (rightfully!) almost everywhere these days...
Good PR overall, I would only put Sea lower and I'm not sure what to do with great, but that's it.
I agree with these guys, when I first came to teamliquid and discovered power rankings I went through the whole thing to see who dominated when and read some of the brief summaries to get a picture of what was happening at that time. I feel that if someone down the road read this month's rankings they would feel like Flash somehow declined in April, at least thats the impression I got from reading your report. I think adding what StylishVod's posted near the end or at the top of what you have written for Flash would help clear things up.
I'm just going to quote this, because I also feel Flash is not being praised enough in the PR description. Not that it is some horrible mistake, Flash is praised (rightfully!) almost everywhere these days...
Good PR overall, I would only put Sea lower and I'm not sure what to do with great, but that's it.
Wow, can we stick to arguing ranks and not whether "insufficient praise" is given to the #1 player?
Sometimes you guys make me embarrassed to be a flash fan
You focus too much on the word "praise". Lets put it this way;
The description of Flash is misleading, wouldn't you rather that the description of the players performance this month was accurate?
Maybe you only care about the ranks but the writing is really important to some and it also takes alot more of plexas time and effort.
Flash should learn from Fantasy how to use Spider mines. In his loss against Pure, the oonly reason why he stayed for so long was because of his mines. Then Flash will be unstoppable.
I'm just going to quote this, because I also feel Flash is not being praised enough in the PR description. Not that it is some horrible mistake, Flash is praised (rightfully!) almost everywhere these days...
Good PR overall, I would only put Sea lower and I'm not sure what to do with great, but that's it.
Wow, can we stick to arguing ranks and not whether "insufficient praise" is given to the #1 player?
Sometimes you guys make me embarrassed to be a flash fan
I wonder what makes you feel entitled to tell other people what they should or should not discuss. Nobody forces you to participate in debate about writings or prohibits you from discussing ranking. You are not alone here.
I would still like to argue stork and leta did better than hiya and mvp. Hiya wins some and loses some, like stork and mvp only has osl (or was it msl). MVP is still a woojing terran in the proleague, not very good, so I don't know why MVP is up there but leta isn't.
Flash running out of gas ? I don't think so, his games may look a little more shaky but you have to take into consideration that if you're dominating the scene for such a long time like Flash does right now EVERYONE OUT THERE WANTS TO FUCKING GET YOU!
Flash will lose a lot more games this month. He's playing a lot of bo5s. And it's natural to lose in bo5s. But that doesn't mean he's running out of gas. Not by a long shot.
It remains to be seen whether JD gets a second wind and takes another MSL.
On May 04 2010 23:04 J1.au wrote: I really hope KT doesn't play Flash tomorrow.
I hope the same...
Also it is easy to say Flash is running out of gas but in the reality he's been playing incredible amount of games and don't have enough time to properly prepare for all of them while his opponents have ample time (like his game vs Midas in MSL). This really should be taken into account.
And despite that Flash has a sick winning percentage...
And on top of that, Flahs has been playing a lot of TvTs lately. That's a lot of studying material for the opponents. In other matchups he's been looking strong.
flash will falter out of both leagues. dont underestimate the OSL curse. it is for reaaaaaaaaaaaalz
but besides that, good ranking. flash is a fucking beast i hope jaedong vs flash rematch msl~~ gogo jaedong will win though. he is just a BEAST at Bo5s
On May 04 2010 04:58 pathy wrote: Kal is way too high for a just over 50% win-rate month
Well, Kal is the only force capable of stopping Flash in the OSL, and Jaedong is the only one capable of stopping Flash in the MSL (probably, but I don't see MVP and Free doing it). And since JD is obviously better than Kal, Kal gets #3. Who below the top 2 has a better chance of stopping the big guy?
I don't think that should matter. Nobody in the left in the OSL has a good shot at Flash including Kal. Records vs Flash: Effort: 1-6 Pure: 0-3 Kal: 1-5
I think Kal is the most consistent Protoss out there right now, but he's in #3 because all the other contenders for the #3 spot have something they have to prove. Kal doesn't.
And for the record, I know that somebody's going to say "nobody has a good shot at Flash," but there are a few who I think have a chance to take our prospective bonjwa in a bo3 or bo5, starting with Leta, SkyHigh, Stork, Jaedong and Zero, but Leta and SkyHigh are one match wonders, Stork isn't looking his best ever, and Zero was knocked out of OSL by Effort.
This season, everything is in Flash's favor to take home the double. His form is at the top of his game and most of the people who could cause a problem have been eliminated. I'm expecting at least one gold.
to be fair, Kal has played very good games against Flash, his record doesn't reflect it but I think we could see a 3-2 either way if Kal somehow beats Effort
On May 04 2010 04:58 pathy wrote: Kal is way too high for a just over 50% win-rate month
Well, Kal is the only force capable of stopping Flash in the OSL, and Jaedong is the only one capable of stopping Flash in the MSL (probably, but I don't see MVP and Free doing it). And since JD is obviously better than Kal, Kal gets #3. Who below the top 2 has a better chance of stopping the big guy?
I don't think that should matter. Nobody in the left in the OSL has a good shot at Flash including Kal. Records vs Flash: Effort: 1-6 Pure: 0-3 Kal: 1-5
I think Kal is the most consistent Protoss out there right now, but he's in #3 because all the other contenders for the #3 spot have something they have to prove. Kal doesn't.
And for the record, I know that somebody's going to say "nobody has a good shot at Flash," but there are a few who I think have a chance to take our prospective bonjwa in a bo3 or bo5, starting with Leta, SkyHigh, Stork, Jaedong and Zero, but Leta and SkyHigh are one match wonders, Stork isn't looking his best ever, and Zero was knocked out of OSL by Effort.
This season, everything is in Flash's favor to take home the double. His form is at the top of his game and most of the people who could cause a problem have been eliminated. I'm expecting at least one gold.
I think Pure has the best shot, Flash one day to prepare for Pure, not to mention it's a TvP Bo5 set. When Flash isn't properly prepared, he has shown to be really sloppy (see games against Midas and MVP). So basically Flash has six days to prepare for MVP and one day to prepare for Pure.
I'm just going to quote this, because I also feel Flash is not being praised enough in the PR description. Not that it is some horrible mistake, Flash is praised (rightfully!) almost everywhere these days...
Good PR overall, I would only put Sea lower and I'm not sure what to do with great, but that's it.
Wow, can we stick to arguing ranks and not whether "insufficient praise" is given to the #1 player?
Sometimes you guys make me embarrassed to be a flash fan
I wonder what makes you feel entitled to tell other people what they should or should not discuss. Nobody forces you to participate in debate about writings or prohibits you from discussing ranking. You are not alone here.
No need to be so prickly; I'm just trying to preserve the integrity of the stereotypical "flash fan".
The reality is that Flash's TvT does not have the same aura of invincibility as it did 5 months ago. He is playing sloppy and games are closer than they should be. He's still winning a ton, but often very very narrowly. His TvZ is still rock solid and TvP is much improved since then, but he has been playing mostly TvT lately.
to be fair, Kal has played very good games against Flash, his record doesn't reflect it but I think we could see a 3-2 either way if Kal somehow beats Effort
Don't get me wrong, Kal is one of the best PvTers out there. In fact, right now he's probably the most consistently strong PvTer of anybody (though that's not to say he's "strongest"). The problem is that he doesn't have that extra little bit he needs to have an advantage against Flash. Same with Free (which applies to MSL).
In fact, the same could maybe be said about Effort. An in-form Effort (assuming he is...) means monstrously powerful ZvT, but it's never quite enough to overcome Flash.
When you play someone like Flash who is astoundingly strong in every aspect of the game, it's that extra little bit that matters. With Starcraft as well understood as it is today, that's more true than ever.
If Flash loses again vs Jaedong in finals, he should be dropped to #2, while Jaedong advance to #1. The other games wouldn't matter, it would be just too much to lose two bo5 in such a short period to keep him in #1.
I'm just going to quote this, because I also feel Flash is not being praised enough in the PR description. Not that it is some horrible mistake, Flash is praised (rightfully!) almost everywhere these days...
Good PR overall, I would only put Sea lower and I'm not sure what to do with great, but that's it.
Wow, can we stick to arguing ranks and not whether "insufficient praise" is given to the #1 player?
Sometimes you guys make me embarrassed to be a flash fan
I wonder what makes you feel entitled to tell other people what they should or should not discuss. Nobody forces you to participate in debate about writings or prohibits you from discussing ranking. You are not alone here.
No need to be so prickly; I'm just trying to preserve the integrity of the stereotypical "flash fan".
The reality is that Flash's TvT does not have the same aura of invincibility as it did 5 months ago. He is playing sloppy and games are closer than they should be. He's still winning a ton, but often very very narrowly. His TvZ is still rock solid and TvP is much improved since then, but he has been playing mostly TvT lately.
Maybe this fits right in with Flash being overly critizised in the past. Flash is one of the few who gets tons of bad feedback for just losing a game.
You can say that his TvT has been looking abit human this month, probably based on the fact that everyone is studdying him right now and he's playing ALOT of games in PL MSL and OSL. You can look at his games and find a flaw and mention it, something like plexa did with his mines in TvP even though he's playing with 90% winratio over the last months. You could watch his TvZ and find a flaw aswell, everyone has atleast some flaws if you compare it to the "perfect play".
The issue is that you shouldn't focus the summary on his very few flaws. To take it to the extreme lets discuss a player who played perfect starcraft fo one month except he targeted one of his own units in one battle that month and when I write about him in the PR I put all my focus on that one flaw. It's just not an accurate picture of his performance that month.
As I mentioned: A more accurate way of opening the description would be; "It's going to take more than: + Show Spoiler +
Flash had a 12 game winstreak this month.
A dominating 80%+ troughout the month.
New highest ever ELO record.
Kespa ranks showed highest rank ever.
Now have 70%+ in all matchups all-time.
On his way to back to back dual finals.
...to knock flash down from his throne.
Flash had some unbelievable records this month that took him closer to bonjwa status. Other progamers all say he's undoubtly the best when mentioned in interviews and he's on his way to back to back dual finals!!
Sure, you can mention some of his flaws but the things I brought up wasn't even mentioned. Thats what I and some others think is wierd. The picture made of flash this PR is inaccurate.
I'm not blind to his flaws and won't argue against every point made against him. I would have reacted the same if it was Jaedong etc.
On May 05 2010 16:19 arbiter_md wrote: If Flash loses again vs Jaedong in finals, he should be dropped to #2, while Jaedong advance to #1. The other games wouldn't matter, it would be just too much to lose two bo5 in such a short period to keep him in #1.
I assume you mean that Flash loses both the MSL and OSL. Then yes I agree he should be #2. Otherwise... + Show Spoiler +
On May 05 2010 16:19 arbiter_md wrote: If Flash loses again vs Jaedong in finals, he should be dropped to #2, while Jaedong advance to #1. The other games wouldn't matter, it would be just too much to lose two bo5 in such a short period to keep him in #1.
I assume you mean that Flash loses both the MSL and OSL. Then yes I agree he should be #2. Otherwise... + Show Spoiler +
Gold Gold Silver Silver > Gold Gold
That's not a fair way to make in the PR of the month... I mean by that logic Nada should always be #1. I think it rather would depend on how he lost to JD - if he were to lose.
On May 05 2010 16:19 arbiter_md wrote: If Flash loses again vs Jaedong in finals, he should be dropped to #2, while Jaedong advance to #1. The other games wouldn't matter, it would be just too much to lose two bo5 in such a short period to keep him in #1.
I assume you mean that Flash loses both the MSL and OSL. Then yes I agree he should be #2. Otherwise... + Show Spoiler +
Gold Gold Silver Silver > Gold Gold
That's not a fair way to make in the PR of the month... I mean by that logic Nada should always be #1. I think it rather would depend on how he lost to JD - if he were to lose.
On May 05 2010 18:23 TwoToneTerran wrote: Stats ForGG and Violet are very solid but it'd be insane to think that Flash isn't what makes them the #1 team.
It is why he is the #1 player, to segway this into relevance.
I definitely agree with Stats, can understand Violet, but forgg? He's really not solid, you never know when he's going to win or lose.
His TvZ and TvT are solid, atleast. He's put up really good games in both matchups recently and it's why he got to the OSL RO8 before being predictably beaten by Kal. He's a good supporting player for PL.
On May 05 2010 18:40 TwoToneTerran wrote: His TvZ and TvT are solid, atleast. He's put up really good games in both matchups recently and it's why he got to the OSL RO8 before being predictably beaten by Kal. He's a good supporting player for PL.
Well, going 2-6 in the matchup since march I'd say it's a stretch to call his TvT "solid" :/ atleast it hasn't been since like february 09.
He's more like a onematch wonder whom on rare occasions pull his potential together for a while...
I'm just going to quote this, because I also feel Flash is not being praised enough in the PR description. Not that it is some horrible mistake, Flash is praised (rightfully!) almost everywhere these days...
Good PR overall, I would only put Sea lower and I'm not sure what to do with great, but that's it.
Wow, can we stick to arguing ranks and not whether "insufficient praise" is given to the #1 player?
Sometimes you guys make me embarrassed to be a flash fan
I wonder what makes you feel entitled to tell other people what they should or should not discuss. Nobody forces you to participate in debate about writings or prohibits you from discussing ranking. You are not alone here.
No need to be so prickly; I'm just trying to preserve the integrity of the stereotypical "flash fan".
The reality is that Flash's TvT does not have the same aura of invincibility as it did 5 months ago. He is playing sloppy and games are closer than they should be. He's still winning a ton, but often very very narrowly. His TvZ is still rock solid and TvP is much improved since then, but he has been playing mostly TvT lately.
Maybe this fits right in with Flash being overly critizised in the past. Flash is one of the few who gets tons of bad feedback for just losing a game.
You can say that his TvT has been looking abit human this month, probably based on the fact that everyone is studdying him right now and he's playing ALOT of games in PL MSL and OSL. You can look at his games and find a flaw and mention it, something like plexa did with his mines in TvP even though he's playing with 90% winratio over the last months. You could watch his TvZ and find a flaw aswell, everyone has atleast some flaws if you compare it to the "perfect play".
The issue is that you shouldn't focus the summary on his very few flaws. To take it to the extreme lets discuss a player who played perfect starcraft fo one month except he targeted one of his own units in one battle that month and when I write about him in the PR I put all my focus on that one flaw. It's just not an accurate picture of his performance that month.
As I mentioned: A more accurate way of opening the description would be; "It's going to take more than: + Show Spoiler +
Flash had a 12 game winstreak this month.
A dominating 80%+ troughout the month.
New highest ever ELO record.
Kespa ranks showed highest rank ever.
Now have 70%+ in all matchups all-time.
On his way to back to back dual finals.
...to knock flash down from his throne.
Flash had some unbelievable records this month that took him closer to bonjwa status. Other progamers all say he's undoubtly the best when mentioned in interviews and he's on his way to back to back dual finals!!
Sure, you can mention some of his flaws but the things I brought up wasn't even mentioned. Thats what I and some others think is wierd. The picture made of flash this PR is inaccurate.
I'm not blind to his flaws and won't argue against every point made against him. I would have reacted the same if it was Jaedong etc.
I'm only bringing up the point that Flash has looked human now because it is more relevant now than it was a few months ago. With that said, his TvT's have followed the same basic pattern for a long time now: fall behind, come back in jaw dropping fashion. I mean, check this out
That is from February but looks like his recent games.
Omg FBH looked sooo crushed, it's really really sad to se a programmer that way, especially FBH who is always happy and smiling and doing crazy stuff (.
I'm just going to quote this, because I also feel Flash is not being praised enough in the PR description. Not that it is some horrible mistake, Flash is praised (rightfully!) almost everywhere these days...
Good PR overall, I would only put Sea lower and I'm not sure what to do with great, but that's it.
Wow, can we stick to arguing ranks and not whether "insufficient praise" is given to the #1 player?
Sometimes you guys make me embarrassed to be a flash fan
I wonder what makes you feel entitled to tell other people what they should or should not discuss. Nobody forces you to participate in debate about writings or prohibits you from discussing ranking. You are not alone here.
No need to be so prickly; I'm just trying to preserve the integrity of the stereotypical "flash fan".
The reality is that Flash's TvT does not have the same aura of invincibility as it did 5 months ago. He is playing sloppy and games are closer than they should be. He's still winning a ton, but often very very narrowly. His TvZ is still rock solid and TvP is much improved since then, but he has been playing mostly TvT lately.
Maybe this fits right in with Flash being overly critizised in the past. Flash is one of the few who gets tons of bad feedback for just losing a game.
You can say that his TvT has been looking abit human this month, probably based on the fact that everyone is studdying him right now and he's playing ALOT of games in PL MSL and OSL. You can look at his games and find a flaw and mention it, something like plexa did with his mines in TvP even though he's playing with 90% winratio over the last months. You could watch his TvZ and find a flaw aswell, everyone has atleast some flaws if you compare it to the "perfect play".
The issue is that you shouldn't focus the summary on his very few flaws. To take it to the extreme lets discuss a player who played perfect starcraft fo one month except he targeted one of his own units in one battle that month and when I write about him in the PR I put all my focus on that one flaw. It's just not an accurate picture of his performance that month.
As I mentioned: A more accurate way of opening the description would be; "It's going to take more than: + Show Spoiler +
Flash had a 12 game winstreak this month.
A dominating 80%+ troughout the month.
New highest ever ELO record.
Kespa ranks showed highest rank ever.
Now have 70%+ in all matchups all-time.
On his way to back to back dual finals.
...to knock flash down from his throne.
Flash had some unbelievable records this month that took him closer to bonjwa status. Other progamers all say he's undoubtly the best when mentioned in interviews and he's on his way to back to back dual finals!!
Sure, you can mention some of his flaws but the things I brought up wasn't even mentioned. Thats what I and some others think is wierd. The picture made of flash this PR is inaccurate.
I'm not blind to his flaws and won't argue against every point made against him. I would have reacted the same if it was Jaedong etc.
I'm only bringing up the point that Flash has looked human now because it is more relevant now than it was a few months ago. With that said, his TvT's have followed the same basic pattern for a long time now: fall behind, come back in jaw dropping fashion. I mean, check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCqXyK6kz_U&feature=player_embedded That is from February but looks like his recent games.
Yes I know, I'm not saying that what you say is untrue. Even if the things you chose to write was true, the things you didn't chose to write that I said is also true and in it's abscense the whole picture seems inaccurate.
On May 06 2010 01:12 Plexa wrote: After 3 months of constant praise, I think the picture that Flash is an indestructible demigod is firmly implanted in most peoples minds
Although I think it's less likely, it's possible that Terrans will catch up to Flash's level of TvT strategy like Zergs did to Jaedong with ZvZ mechanics.
On May 06 2010 01:12 Plexa wrote: After 3 months of constant praise, I think the picture that Flash is an indestructible demigod is firmly implanted in most peoples minds
well we'll know if its true friday night :p
The article for the OSL Ro8 said that Flash's schedule plays little factor in the possibility of Pure beating Flash.
On May 05 2010 18:23 TwoToneTerran wrote: Stats ForGG and Violet are very solid but it'd be insane to think that Flash isn't what makes them the #1 team.
It is why he is the #1 player, to segway this into relevance.
It's like saying why are the Lebron Cavaliers I mean Cleveland Cavaliers so good.
On May 06 2010 03:11 reincremate wrote: Although I think it's less likely, it's possible that Terrans will catch up to Flash's level of TvT strategy like Zergs did to Jaedong with ZvZ mechanics.
Flash's game sense and in-game decision making isn't really copyable though. His greatest strength lies hidden deep within his splendiferous mind.
On May 06 2010 10:08 Trezeguet23 wrote: Is MVP being in the power rank the first time that a player who doesn't have a single matchup above 50% winrate has made the top 10?
On May 06 2010 03:11 reincremate wrote: Although I think it's less likely, it's possible that Terrans will catch up to Flash's level of TvT strategy like Zergs did to Jaedong with ZvZ mechanics.
Flash's game sense and in-game decision making isn't really copyable though. His greatest strength lies hidden deep within his splendiferous mind.
On May 06 2010 09:17 o[twist] wrote: to be fair, the same is true with jaedong's crazy micro or bisu's crazy multitask
Things such as micro or multitasking can be replicated by someone else through practise to a completely different degree.
I don’t think you can say that Flash has got better game sense than JD or Bisu had when they owned everyone. This is like when people say Flash is only a macro bot: don't conceptualize the game of the best players in the world! In the last MSL, JD opted to outsmart Flash in every game because he knew that micro and macro alone (on those maps) wouldn't cut it. These players just can't get copied. If anything Flash’s reigns of dominance in the past have been a lot shorter than those of Bisu and JD, which would suggest that his style is easier to copy or figure out (14 CC lol?). I remember when Bisu’s style simply was to scout the opponent early and then do whatever he needed to beat his game plan.
The Bacchus Flash is completely different from the current Flash.
Anyway, its hard to prepare for the OSL AND MSL finals, especially when you don't know if you're playing Kal (protoss) or Jaedong (zerg) until like a week before the finals.
Pure is 6-1 last 7 games vs terran though and should get some credit for it, but this is flash and to me it looks like he's in god-mode after skipping out on PL vs Khan.
On May 06 2010 03:11 reincremate wrote: Although I think it's less likely, it's possible that Terrans will catch up to Flash's level of TvT strategy like Zergs did to Jaedong with ZvZ mechanics.
Flash's game sense and in-game decision making isn't really copyable though. His greatest strength lies hidden deep within his splendiferous mind.
On May 06 2010 09:17 o[twist] wrote: to be fair, the same is true with jaedong's crazy micro or bisu's crazy multitask
Things such as micro or multitasking can be replicated by someone else through practise to a completely different degree.
I don’t think you can say that Flash has got better game sense than JD or Bisu had when they owned everyone. This is like when people say Flash is only a macro bot: don't conceptualize the game of the best players in the world! In the last MSL, JD opted to outsmart Flash in every game because he knew that micro and macro alone (on those maps) wouldn't cut it. These players just can't get copied. If anything Flash’s reigns of dominance in the past have been a lot shorter than those of Bisu and JD, which would suggest that his style is easier to copy or figure out (14 CC lol?). I remember when Bisu’s style simply was to scout the opponent early and then do whatever he needed to beat his game plan.
I think the big difference between the way Flash strategically dominates opponents and the way a typical progamer does, is that Flash is a very improvised player. He relies on his immediate game sense in the moment and very few players display the speed of reaction and the ability to adapt to changes in the game that he does.
Two examples: Flash vs Mind on Othello and Flash vs Movie on HBR.
There is no way to say for sure, but I would submit that his game sense is better than Jaedong or Bisu's. Jaedong sure did outprepare Flash in the MSL finals, but he didn't display any impressive in the moment decision making that led to his victory.
Ya, I'm not really talking about mind games or prepared BO's. In fact, I think Game 2 in the MSL finals show pretty well what I mean; JD came in with a super smart build that completely countered what Flash was originally doing. Then Flash adapts with some brilliant improvisation and wins the game anyway. Flash's game sense and adaptability is better than anyone elses. In order to be a top, top player you of course need to be decent at everything; Flash has awesome micro, macro and multitasking as well, and JD is of course not an idiot, but players have different things they excell at and sets them apart. JD's main strenght is his mechanics and micro (as well as a very strong pshyche). But if you look at how JD lost most of his recent ZvT's, like vs Darkelf, it's because he failed to react to what the T was doing. If JD was as smart as Flash is when it comes to improvisation he would've been the best player of all time no doubt and the closest thing to perfection we've seen, but he isn't.
How come EffOrt is not on the list? Well, I guess he will have to destroy Kal in the semi to prove him the ZvP king. Again, EffOrt is got solid mechanics,however lack creativity. this kid can really kick some butt when he is rolling.
On May 07 2010 05:44 Eternal Obilivion wrote: How come EffOrt is not on the list? Well, I guess he will have to destroy Kal in the semi to prove him the ZvP king. Again, EffOrt is got solid mechanics,however lack creativity. this kid can really kick some butt when he is rolling.
i certainly hope so. two TvZ finals for flash, ahaahaha.
Really? Midas at 4? What, he played like 4 games last month. Wtf? Really? Over all those other guys? I just gotta say something because I think there is some heavy bias and favourtism in that decision. But w/e.
On May 07 2010 07:34 lone_hydra wrote: Really? Midas at 4? What, he played like 4 games last month. Wtf? Really? Over all those other guys? I just gotta say something because I think there is some heavy bias and favourtism in that decision. But w/e.
Edit: Never mind, he has been doing okay
Midas actually has been doing quite well though in usual time 4th spot would be too high. However, time are not usual. Everyone except for Flash, Jaedong and Kal has been sacking lately.
Seeing MVP there hurts me but I gues it was impact of him beating baby who got really hyped-up after he beat Jaedong and taking 1 game of Flash in their quarter final bo5. How did it end we all know by now.
But what actually bothers me is Sea at 5th spot. If that's not bias then I don't know what is...
On May 07 2010 07:34 lone_hydra wrote: Really? Midas at 4? What, he played like 4 games last month. Wtf? Really? Over all those other guys? I just gotta say something because I think there is some heavy bias and favourtism in that decision. But w/e.
Edit: Never mind, he has been doing okay
But what actually bothers me is Sea at 5th spot. If that's not bias then I don't know what is...
Yeah Sea has entered the "we already know this guy can't play individuals for his life so we'll just give him a free (in more ways than one) pass on that whereas for every other good player it still matters".
I mean for a guy who didn't even play that well in PL this month and got knocked out of his only league, #5 is really hard to understand.
On May 07 2010 09:47 DracoVolantus wrote: PR shouldn't be such a rollcaster imho. It could be avoided by not making so important how far sb is in individual by luck.
PR would be less of a roller coaster if fewer gamers lost games randomly.
Like two years ago it was Flash-Jaedong-Bisu-Stork (rearrange as needed) plus some assortment of fantasy, BeSt, Jangbi, Luxury, etc. for three whole months or something. So different periods get different results.
On May 07 2010 05:44 Eternal Obilivion wrote: How come EffOrt is not on the list? Well, I guess he will have to destroy Kal in the semi to prove him the ZvP king. Again, EffOrt is got solid mechanics,however lack creativity. this kid can really kick some butt when he is rolling.
I'm not sure it's fair the say that EffOrt doesn't have creativity, by the way. He's not Boxer, but he switches up a lot of little subtle things about his game all the time, and uses his zerglings in ZvZ like nobody else.
See him using burrow against Light, and using non-stop drops against SangHo.
But two players I can guarentee will be on next month's PR; EffOrt, and fantasy . Both have been much much much improved lately.
On May 07 2010 13:08 Random_0 wrote: I think ForGG deserves a spot on your list.
He's been playing reasonably well in Proleague, got to a Ro8 matchup with Kal, the #3 player, and took him to 3 sets.
Certainly considering the seemingly random jumble at 4-10, ForGG is right up there.
I personally think Forgg has much to prove. He needs to keep winning in the proleague to get even cbnc. A round of 8 appearance doesn't guarantee a spot. Otherwise we would have 16 potential candidates.
On May 07 2010 09:47 DracoVolantus wrote: PR shouldn't be such a rollcaster imho. It could be avoided by not making so important how far sb is in individual by luck.
PR would be less of a roller coaster if fewer gamers lost games randomly.
Like two years ago it was Flash-Jaedong-Bisu-Stork (rearrange as needed) plus some assortment of fantasy, BeSt, Jangbi, Luxury, etc. for three whole months or something. So different periods get different results.
I'm really exited to watch effort's continued comeback. He was such an amazing ZvT player. The more good players to challange Flash the better, even though he's not close at the moment.
On May 07 2010 17:39 StylishVODs wrote: I'm really exited to watch effort's continued comeback. He was such an amazing ZvT player. The more good players to challange Flash the better, even though he's not close at the moment.
Yeah, Effort used to be so good that Flash trained with Effort to prepare for the MSL finals.
On May 07 2010 20:15 o[twist] wrote: gosh guys i'm soooooooo worried about flash's tough schedule
His schedule got a lot less tough when he didn't even have to go to the Proleague game, let alone play a game/ace game. But ya, based on how he raped both MVP and Pure so easily he probably could've done that too.
He'd get 500 a piece purely for winning the titles, so yes. If he beats Jaedong and Kal in both finals, both fairly high kespa dudes, he'll probably be close to 5000.
On May 07 2010 21:01 TwoToneTerran wrote: He'd get 500 a piece purely for winning the titles, so yes. If he beats Jaedong and Kal in both finals, both fairly high kespa dudes, he'll probably be close to 5000.
That's actually not how it works. You don't get 500 points for winning a league, and the kespa rank of the players you beat does not matter. He'll still be well over 4000 if he wins both finals though.
Lol, it's fucking unbelievable how Flash manages to maintain such a high ELO when he gains so little for every win and loses so much for every loss. XD
On May 07 2010 09:47 DracoVolantus wrote: PR shouldn't be such a rollcaster imho. It could be avoided by not making so important how far sb is in individual by luck.
PR would be less of a roller coaster if fewer gamers lost games randomly.
that's circular reasoning.
i think this month's was needlessly disruptive.
No, not really. Circular reasoning means you are assuming your conclusion somewhere as a premise. I was just pointing out - or trying to point out - what I now apparently have to spell out distinctly:
The Power Rank is a (monthly) rank based on how well players are playing (during the last month). Currently, by which I mean for the last couple months, no one except Flash and *maybe* Jaedong is consistently playing solid S-class or near S-class Starcraft. But, there are a large number of players who are playing "pretty well": Kal, free, Stork, Midas, BaBy, HiyA, RorO, great, EffOrt, Calm, Violet, ZerO, Kwanro, Stats, Anytime, and possibly a few others. There are also those, like Pure, MVP, sKyHigh, Jangbi, fOrGG, etc. who are either known strong players apparently slowly working out of slumps or weak players having great runs. But still, no one has really stood out from that crowd for more than a couple weeks.
In short, what we should expect right now is that the PR gets fairly well shaken up every month as one or the other of these players really makes an impression for the month - because that's how people are playing. What we're seeing right now in the proscene is a lot of streaks and good play for a few weeks before fading back down to averagely-good - and the PR's reflected that.
You say this month is "needlessly" disruptive? Well, here's last month's: Flash, Light, Sea, Jaedong, BaBy, Stork, Kal, Kwanro, free, Leta. Flash, Jaedong, Kal, Sea, BaBy, and free (that's 60%) are still on (even though Sea probably shouldn't be and maybe not BaBy). Light has been playing at 50% (no leagues); Stork I believe went 5-4 (no leagues), Kwanro is out of the leagues and playing average, Leta went 4-4 this month (no leagues) - they don't belong on the PR any more. Of the new players (Midas, by.great, MVP, HiyA) every single one did better than the guys who got knocked off. You can argue that EffOrt, Calm, or Pure should have also been in the discussion, but that would still be "new" to this month.
So sure, the PR's been a little unsteady lately - but that just reflects reality.
Top 4 seems solid, I don't like Kal being #3, but can't argue against it. Seems to me like Baby should be #5 though and not Sea, but that's not that big of a deal. I'd rather MVP was #10, and Free is fine, but Hiya and Great don't belong on top 10 imo. I'd rather put Flying and ForGG there instead.
lol museon. i quoted two lines of yours; you edited out the circular reasoning and then said there was no circular reasoning. i'm sure your post here is fine, but the circular reasoning was saying "it's fine that there's so much switching up in this month's PR. look at other PRs; that'll show you the difference in consistency between then and now." but a perfectly valid alternate explanation for the difference in consistency between PRs is that those were done more accurately. using past PRs as evidence for a difference in consistency when what's at issue is how consistent the PR is and should be is classic circular reasoning, which is, i assume, why you edited it out.
On May 08 2010 04:08 Nightmarjoo wrote: ... but Hiya and Great don't belong on top 10 imo. I'd rather put Flying and ForGG there instead.
What? I'm tempted to call troll, not so much on your wanting to take HiyA and great off but on your trying to put Flying an fOrGG (especially fOrGG) on. I'm not really sure who's done better than great and HiyA anyway, but Flying and fOrGG are poor replacement candidates. I would be looking more at Calm, or EffOrt, or even Pure or Movie or something first (for the April rank).
In descending order of belonging on the PR for April:
great: 7-3 in April, made the MSL Ro8, wins over Kal, HiyA, and Movie, no bad losses. So far in May is 3-4, losing to Jaedong and Stats (in a very poor game) and taking Calm to 5 games in their MSL match.
HiyA: 7-4 in April, favored to advance to the MSL semifinals (over free, a solid player), wins over Kal, Calm, Shuttle, and of course free. Only one bad loss, to Horang2. So far in May is 1-1, beating firebathero and losing to fantasy.
---
Flying: 4-1 in April, no individual leagues, no standout wins, loss to the only good player (RorO) he faced. So far in May is 1-0, beating YellOw[arnC].
fOrGG: 4-6 in April, advanced from OSL groups only to get mutilated by Kal. Only good win was against Jaedong in Proleague. So far in May is 1-1, losing to Hyuk (in a terrible game) and beating Jangbi (solid game from fOrGG, poor decision-making from Jangbi).
<< Sorry about the double-post - I was replying to two totally different issues. >>
On May 08 2010 04:27 o[twist] wrote: lol museon. i quoted two lines of yours; you edited out the circular reasoning and then said there was no circular reasoning. i'm sure your post here is fine, but the circular reasoning was saying "it's fine that there's so much switching up in this month's PR. look at other PRs; that'll show you the difference in consistency between then and now." but a perfectly valid alternate explanation for the difference in consistency between PRs is that those were done more accurately. using past PRs as evidence for a difference in consistency when what's at issue is how consistent the PR is and should be is classic circular reasoning, which is, i assume, why you edited it out.
Oh, I see. I was guessing at what you were referring to, so I edited to only include what I thought you were talking about - and voila! - we find the misunderstanding. I still think you're looking at this sideways though.
First, about your post: it's true that I only mentioned the PR rankings being fairly stable. This is because I didn't think I had to mention that "two years ago" (2008) was a period when we had several players who held on to top spots in reality for a significant amount of time. Apparently I should have.
Now, let's go through the argument as I see it. If I expressed myself poorly before, apologies; my argument hasn't changed. You tell me where you see a problem:
We agree - I think, and at least for the sake of argument - that (at least some) past PRs have been more "consistent" from month to month. Where we differ is on what we think this indicates.
(By the way, define consistent. You seem to be saying that the PR should not change that much from month to month, but you could also be referring to changing criteria used to determine the rankings.)
-> I say the PR seemed "more consistent" because the players were more consistent at those points. As a corollary, I deny that this PR is less accurate because of any issues of "consistency" with the last PR. -> You say the PR was more consistent because it was "done more accurately".
On me, the burden of proof is to show that players were more consistent. While negative proofs are dangerous, I challenge you to find anybody right now - apart from Flash (and possibly Jaedong) playing with the consistency displayed by, say, Taek-Bang-Lee-SSang over Summer-Fall 2008. It's just not happening. We don't even have an Unholy Trinity like we did in Winter 2008-Spring 2009, where Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash destroyed everyone, only challenged by Stork, Leta, and possibly EffOrt and fantasy. We don't even have Summer/Fall 2009 where Jaedong, Flash, fantasy, Stork, Light, Sea, Calm (and possibly a couple others) all were playing very well, but no one quite seized the "best player in the world" title (and it remained JD's by default). Apart from Flash, there simply is no consistency at the top right now, and we should expect the PR to reflect that.
For your part, if you contend that the earlier PR was more accurate, you need to show how this PR is inaccurate - and for extra credit, how making it more consistent would help that accuracy. (For myself, I feel that a really accurate PR for April would probably drop Sea completely and drop BaBy further, but that's hardly "consistency" and so doesn't help you much.)
we seem to understand each other so i'm hesitant to continue this further, but i would say that, in general, a new player on the PR is a poor decision if they will be removed right away. everybody disagrees about what the PR represents, but i tend to think it should be at least a little bit predictive of how the players will do. if a PR writer can successfully predict and make a case for a player who was 0-10 in a given month doing spectacularly in the following month, i'm all for that, particularly if they were on the previous month and would be on again the next month. on the other hand, if a player has a freak standout month that will not happen again, i think it's good PR writing to know that and keep them at CBNC.
under this view, this PR was less accurate simply because it predicted top-10 play from people who could not deliver it. seriously, if MVP actually plays better this month than Leta, Light, Fantasy, Really, etc., i will retract this. and if Great actually plays better than Calm, Effort, Kwanro, etc., same.
this reasoning at least begins to suffice the burden of proof you've placed upon me - it suggests that, at least in a "predictive" power ranking, an increase in consistency would be rewarded with greater accuracy (and thus greater consistency next month!).
anyway, there you go - like i said, we understand each other, so there's no real problem.
A Semi-finalist and 8-2 in his last 10 games, yet Effort still isn't anywhere in the PR, but some people like Hiya and MVP and Great are, who all are way worse.
On May 08 2010 05:10 Shikyo wrote: A Semi-finalist and 8-2 in his last 10 games, yet Effort still isn't anywhere in the PR, but some people like Hiya and MVP and Great are, who all are way worse.
If he beats Kal in a convincing fashion then you can expect Effort to come back to PR. Otherwise, well, he kind of managed to sneak into semis. It is for the same reason that Pure is not on the PR. So far he has only proved that his ZvZ has returned. His ZvT is still untested (and he was posting terrible terrible results in that match-up) and he hasn't played a ZvP in like a month...
Blah I hate it when I wake up and no new posts are made in this thread This is my favourite thread lol!
I must say Flash's TvP records of recent time is like nothing we've ever seen. As if 23-2, 92% winratio wasn't enough, thats not the most remarkable about this. If you look at the players he faced, there are almost only games played vs the better PvT players of recent times. The list consists of almost only players like Kal, Movie, Stork, Best, free, pure and snow.
Because people are stupid fanboys, like yourself when it comes to CJ players, and try to put their hero on a pedestal and pump up their achievements. Midas was one of the best terrans of the past but he's completely in the past like Nada or July.
Sure Midas won tons of games recently, but none of them weren't done through fantastic play. Plexa's power rank description of him is mostly correct.
Wow, midas played aweful. I mean really aweful, not just "not good enough" like pure vs flash. + Show Spoiler +
Last game, failed rush while letting 4, FOUR, scvs gather in main before using them to mine. Even I never let 4 scvs stack up in the early game when rushing... And I'm just a random A- iccup user...
really dissapointed in midas play today =(
Jaedong looks really beastly now, I sooo want flash vs jaedong to produce some awesome games in the possible finals.
On May 08 2010 20:07 StylishVODs wrote: Wow, midas played aweful. I mean really aweful, not just "not good enough" like pure vs flash. + Show Spoiler +
Last game, failed rush while letting 4, FOUR, scvs gather in main before using them to mine. Even I never let 4 scvs stack up in the early game when rushing... And I'm just a random A- iccup user...
really dissapointed in midas play today =(
Jaedong looks really beastly now, I sooo want flash vs jaedong to produce some awesome games in the possible finals.
At the point with the four SCVs I think he xas already mentally too shaken up to play at his real level though. Even though I love JD, I felt so bad for Midas, hope he won't go on a slump now.
On May 08 2010 20:00 Lazerbeems wrote: Because people are stupid fanboys, like yourself when it comes to CJ players, and try to put their hero on a pedestal and pump up their achievements. Midas was one of the best terrans of the past but he's completely in the past like Nada or July.
Sure Midas won tons of games recently, but none of them weren't done through fantastic play. Plexa's power rank description of him is mostly correct.
Yeah, I am a fanboy but I would never put a CJ player as a slight underdog against Flash since thats just crazy.
BTW I wonder whats worse for Flash? Kal to get TvP finals and then practice TvZ for a week to face Jaedong while Jaedong has way more time to. Or Effort to get TvZ finals and practice against zerg, but on the other hand give Jaedong at least three games to study his TvZ?
JD got knocked out of OSL by Baby, dropped games to T's like Darkelf and Frogg, and had a 46% winrate vs T in the 15 games he played after the MSL finals vs Flash. Flash has been having a more than 80% winrate in all his MU's since October last year. They are not comparable at the moment (although JD is showing signs of going into rape mode again ). I did agree that JD was the favourite, mostly because of how strong he is historically in Bo5's, but in order to become a super favourite (the guy you would be willing to bet your house on) he should've shown dominance and consistency in the months before. He didn't. But ya, JD is seemingly coming out of his ''slump'' now and I think he has a good chance of taking down Flash in the finals.
On May 08 2010 22:11 Holgerius wrote: JD got knocked out of OSL by Baby, dropped games to T's like Darkelf and Frogg, and had a 46% winrate vs T in the 15 games he played after the MSL finals vs Flash. Flash has been having a more than 80% winrate in all his MU's since October last year. They are not comparable at the moment (although JD is showing signs of going into rape mode again ). I did agree that JD was the favourite, mostly because of how strong he is historically in Bo5's, but in order to become a super favourite (the guy you would be willing to bet your house on) he should've shown dominance and consistency in the months before. He didn't. But ya, JD is seemingly coming out of his ''slump'' now and I think he has a good chance of taking down Flash in the finals.
Unless Jaedong doesn't drop a single game till the final Flash is obviously the favourite to win the final though. As much as I love JD Flash has been a monster for more than half a year now and the maps favour him a lot too.
But if JD wins his record of four gold medals in four SL seasons in a row would be as crazy as Flash's back to back dual finals.
Who is gonna be #1 on the PR if Flash wins the OSL and gets his Golden Mouse but loses to JD in the MSL final again (with both of them winning their games in PL)? Would Silver+Gold (for the second time in a row) >>> Gold and head to head victory like the last time? Both of them would be making history.
On May 08 2010 22:31 Holgerius wrote: Who is gonna be #1 on the PR if Flash wins the OSL and gets his Golden Mouse but loses to JD in the MSL final again (with both of them winning their games in PL)? Would Silver+Gold (for the second time in a row) >>> Gold and head to head victory like the last time? Both of them would be making history.
If that were to happen again I officially petition that we will have no #3 once again. They both would show close to perfect play to achieve that.
It's brilliant to be a fan of both JD and Flash right now. :D The rivalry between the two of them could reach unprecedented heights if they can keep it up. Next season I would like them to face off in both the finals, winning one gold each in an epic 3-2 fashion.
Despite people screaming and crying how terribly are terran imbalanced, how are maps horrible for any non-terran players, how are we gonna see double TvT finals this season etc, we are in the same situation like last season. Only terran who got at least to semifinals is Flash.
On May 08 2010 22:31 Holgerius wrote: Who is gonna be #1 on the PR if Flash wins the OSL and gets his Golden Mouse but loses to JD in the MSL final again (with both of them winning their games in PL)? Would Silver+Gold (for the second time in a row) >>> Gold and head to head victory like the last time? Both of them would be making history.
Flash obviously :/
The level of consistance he's been showing with 80+% winratio over more than 100 games and getting to dual back to back SL finals while being called "God Young-Ho" by the koreans cannot be overwelmed by a single win in a Bo5.
If Jaedong was in both leagues and won vs Flash in both finals then I'd be fine with it, but he's not because he's been losing far too many games to even be considered for #1 when flash is playing like he does.
Flash is the one who's been breaking all these records lately and shown level of play that takes dominance to another level, not Jaedong. Flash is the one floating on 2420+ ELO, 3600+ kespa, and the momentum of winning everything everywhere right now. One win in a Bo5 isn't enough.
And lets not get ahead of ourselves praising jaedong for beating midas. Midas played really bad. But, once again, jaedong will be the player with the more practice time and he's really strong in Bo5 mindgames so there will surely be a fight.
As for the question Dual back to back SL finals > 2 MSL titles in a row? well thats obviously dual back to back SL finals since its never happened before and probably never will again. And hasn't yet lol.
Maybe I sound alot flash bias, but I'm really a jaedong fan aswell. Im just looking at the facts and judging by it.
On May 08 2010 22:31 Holgerius wrote: Who is gonna be #1 on the PR if Flash wins the OSL and gets his Golden Mouse but loses to JD in the MSL final again (with both of them winning their games in PL)? Would Silver+Gold (for the second time in a row) >>> Gold and head to head victory like the last time? Both of them would be making history.
Flash obviously :/
The level of consistance he's been showing with 80+% winratio over more than 100 games and getting to dual back to back SL finals while being called "God Young-Ho" by the koreans cannot be overwelmed by a single win in a Bo5.
If Jaedong was in both leagues and won vs Flash in both finals then I'd be fine with it, but he's not because he's been losing far too many games to even be considered for #1 when flash is playing like he does.
Flash is the one who's been breaking all these records lately and shown level of play that takes dominance to another level, not Jaedong. Flash is the one floating on 2420+ ELO, 3600+ kespa, and the momentum of winning everything everywhere right now. One win in a Bo5 isn't enough.
And lets not get ahead of ourselves praising jaedong for beating midas. Midas played really bad. But, once again, jaedong will be the player with the more practice time and he's really strong in Bo5 mindgames so there will surely be a fight.
As for the question Dual back to back SL finals > 2 MSL titles in a row? well thats obviously dual back to back SL finals since its never happened before and probably never will again. And hasn't yet lol.
Maybe I sound alot flash bias, but I'm really a jaedong fan aswell. Im just looking at the facts and judging by it.
It's not just 2 MSL titles in a row, it's FOUR titles in a row and a sixth altogether to boot.
But unless Flash loses the OSL finals/barely wins it and loses horribly against Jaedong I think Flash #1 is not arguable.
Thanks to Flash's dominance it's not easy to notice. But Jaedong is breaking records too (his ZvP one e.g.). And yes Midas played bad in the third game, but the 2nd was just Jaedong completely countering Midas. It was Flash-esque dominance play.
Ya, JD would reach the same amount of titles as Nada. As fucking Nada! I don't know who of them (Flash with unparalleled consecutive dual finals or JD who would be tied with Nada for most titles ever and very likely to actually surpass him due to not showing any signs of falling into the land of mediocrity) would be taking the biggest step towards the position as GOAT if that happened.
Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
This is why the results of the possible Bo5 between Flash and Jaedong can't push Flash of the #1 spot. Flash has to prepare for both finals.
I almost wish both players were only in one league to get the best games possible. Jaedong knew in the past how hard it is to prepare for both and thats why he "sacked" MSL that time.
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
You predict a 3-0 win an ZvZ Bo5? Dude... No matter who's playing, that's just crazy. If a ZvZ Bo5 goes 3-0 either way it's pure luck because chances are there's at least one build order win for the inferior player.
Furthermore it's a sad excuse to say "he didn't practice for it". Give Calm some credit here. Seriously, if there's one match-up where it doesn't hurt when you don't practice it's ZvZ, especially when you're Jaedong who had 80%+ ZvZ stats back then. What's there to practice? The 3-5 different BOs? ZvZ is the most raw talent and luck based match-up by far. Practicing won't help you much unless you do really really crazy stuff that happens to work out and even the options for that are limited.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's not bloody unlikely Jaedong could lose to Calm, so stop acting as if he were in the finals already.
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
You predict a 3-0 win an ZvZ Bo5? Dude... No matter who's playing, that's just crazy. If a ZvZ Bo5 goes 3-0 either way it's pure luck because chances are there's at least one build order win for the inferior player.
Furthermore it's a sad excuse to say "he didn't practice for it". Give Calm some credit here. Seriously, if there's one match-up where it doesn't hurt when you don't practice it's ZvZ, especially when you're Jaedong who had 80%+ ZvZ stats back then. What's there to practice? The 3-5 different BOs? ZvZ is the most raw talent and luck based match-up by far. Practicing won't help you much unless you do really really crazy stuff that happens to work out and even the options for that are limited.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's not bloody unlikely Jaedong could lose to Calm, so stop acting as if he were in the finals already.
Well how come JD has won so many ZvZs so convincingly then? Even when he had bad luck he managed to win.
Jaedong lost the series against Calm because at that time Jaedong went 12 hatch every game. And Calm fully abused it by going 9pool speed every game.
Yes, ZvZ is the most luck bed matchup by far, but Jaedong is a player who actually can turn from 50% chance to 70%.
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
You predict a 3-0 win an ZvZ Bo5? Dude... No matter who's playing, that's just crazy. If a ZvZ Bo5 goes 3-0 either way it's pure luck because chances are there's at least one build order win for the inferior player.
Furthermore it's a sad excuse to say "he didn't practice for it". Give Calm some credit here. Seriously, if there's one match-up where it doesn't hurt when you don't practice it's ZvZ, especially when you're Jaedong who had 80%+ ZvZ stats back then. What's there to practice? The 3-5 different BOs? ZvZ is the most raw talent and luck based match-up by far. Practicing won't help you much unless you do really really crazy stuff that happens to work out and even the options for that are limited.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's not bloody unlikely Jaedong could lose to Calm, so stop acting as if he were in the finals already.
Well how come JD has won so many ZvZs so convincingly then? Even when he had bad luck he managed to win.
Jaedong lost the series against Calm because at that time Jaedong went 12 hatch every game. And Calm fully abused it by going 9pool speed every game.
Yes, ZvZ is the most luck bed matchup by far, but Jaedong is a player who actually can turn from 50% chance to 70%.
I think he means that he won so many ZvZ based on his raw skill. I agree that zvz is probably the matchup needed the least preparation but non the less you have to play it alot before a match to get the right feel of it.
Beeing in both leagues might have prevented Jaedong from playing it enough to get the feel before the match, but all this is just speculation.
What's not speculation is that it's harder to prepare for two finals than one, or to get into two finals in the first place for that matter...
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
You predict a 3-0 win an ZvZ Bo5? Dude... No matter who's playing, that's just crazy.If a ZvZ Bo5 goes 3-0 either way it's pure luck because chances are there's at least one build order win for the inferior player.
Furthermore it's a sad excuse to say "he didn't practice for it". Give Calm some credit here. Seriously, if there's one match-up where it doesn't hurt when you don't practice it's ZvZ, especially when you're Jaedong who had 80%+ ZvZ stats back then. What's there to practice? The 3-5 different BOs? ZvZ is the most raw talent and luck based match-up by far. Practicing won't help you much unless you do really really crazy stuff that happens to work out and even the options for that are limited.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's not bloody unlikely Jaedong could lose to Calm, so stop acting as if he were in the finals already.
The thing is, it is unlikely for Jaedong to lose to Calm. Possible, but unlikely. I'm not acting as if Jaedong is already in the finals --- I'm merely pointing out that Jaedong is a huge favorite to beat Calm and that I'll be quite surprised if he fails to.
In reponse to the part that I bolded --- I can think of at least 3 ZvZ Bo5's off the top of my head that Jaedong has won 3-0. In fact, unless my memory fails me, the only ZvZ that Jaedong didn't 3-0 was the one he didn't practice for because he was too busy winning the Golden Mouse. Practice and preparation matter even in ZvZ, and Calm is about to find out what a Bo5 against a well-prepared Jaedong is like.
I'll offer you a friendly wager if you'd like --- Jaedong wins 3-0 or 3-1, you change your sig to "I was owned by angry Jaedong" for at least 2 weeks. Jaedong wins 3-2 or loses, it's a 3-month ban for me.
On May 09 2010 04:13 Jaedong wrote: Also, even though it’s not good to think like this, only having to prepare for SPL and MSL is much easier. It’s been a long time since I’ve been this relaxed.
On August 14 2009 22:28 ghostWriter wrote: -Your loss in the round of 4 of the Avalon MSL must have been distressing as well. ▲After I lost yesterday to Calm, I felt that he must have prepared very thoroughly. Even in the first game, I won simply because he made a mistake, not because I played well. I definitely wanted to win, but since I wasn't really ready for those games, I wouldn't have been happy even if I won.
Yes or no question: will Jaedong be ready for this Bo5?
Answer: yes
For those who don't remember, Jaedong was in two simultaneous semifinals and the proleague grand finals all at once. Calm won fair and square, don't get me wrong. It's just that this time he'll lose fair and square and we'll all be able to put this behind us.
On August 14 2009 22:28 ghostWriter wrote: -Your loss in the round of 4 of the Avalon MSL must have been distressing as well. ▲After I lost yesterday to Calm, I felt that he must have prepared very thoroughly. Even in the first game, I won simply because he made a mistake, not because I played well. I definitely wanted to win, but since I wasn't really ready for those games, I wouldn't have been happy even if I won.
Yes or no question: will Jaedong be ready for this Bo5?
Answer: yes
For those who don't remember, Jaedong was in two simultaneous semifinals and the proleague grand finals all at once. Calm won fair and square, don't get me wrong. It's just that this time he'll lose fair and square and we'll all be able to put this behind us.
I agree. 3:0 or 3:1 for Jaedong incoming. This time Jaedong will prepare like crazy for this bo5 and we all know that when it comes to bo5 Jaedong is (almost) unbeatable.
Despite people screaming and crying how terribly are terran imbalanced, how are maps horrible for any non-terran players, how are we gonna see double TvT finals this season etc, we are in the same situation like last season. Only terran who got at least to semifinals is Flash.
Where are the terran dominance doomsayers now?
the only good terrans these days are light really (or reality wtf with that) fantasy baby midas ....have i left anyone ? and i do mean good in a way where there is no real weakness i dont care how much goos u are in tvz if u suck vs protoss forgg sucks vs protoos fantasy suck vs z ( he lost to shine and calm in msl and osl ) and sea doesnt count since he never passes r 8 (no matter what .) baby lost to flash and to mvp who btw lost to flash really well.... i dont really rem what happened to really but he sort of went to a slump didnt pass the r32 in both leagues midas lost to jaedong (.....i dont think the maps did the diffrence but thats like trying to figure if a car is heavier if u fill it with gas ) and never made the osl prelim since in those days he didnt really played as good as now. and for finish light lost to 3 protoss and 1 of them was perfect man in a bo 3 so i dont really agree with u on that, its more of most terrans these day suck and those who doesnt exterminate each other ) and the signs are clear hiya made it to the round of 8 ! hiya !!!! (and i'm an oz fan) baby took jaedong in a bo3 (granted he played very good ,,,, nvm he played better than jaedong ) i lost my point but still u get what i'm saying
Despite people screaming and crying how terribly are terran imbalanced, how are maps horrible for any non-terran players, how are we gonna see double TvT finals this season etc, we are in the same situation like last season. Only terran who got at least to semifinals is Flash.
Where are the terran dominance doomsayers now?
Isn't that odd...
People said the maps favoured Terran and yet Flash is the only Terran left.
It's almost like Flash is so good that he distorts map statistics in favour of Terrans. (Just a wild guess.)
Most the good terrans who aren't flash are either slumping, PL wonders, or new. Flash is really the only title caliber terran when Fantasy is slumping.
On May 09 2010 16:15 TwoToneTerran wrote: Terrans are doing well in PL.
Most the good terrans who aren't flash are either slumping, PL wonders, or new. Flash is really the only title caliber terran when Fantasy is slumping.
not exactly shocking.
the last terran to win msl was forgg in 2008; before that it was mind in 2007; then oov in 2004 the last non-flash terran to win osl was nada in 2006
on the other hand, the last protoss to win osl before stork was anytime in 2005; last protoss to win msl before bisu was nal_ra in 2003
zergs should look better, with luxury, calm, july, and ggplay having won titles since savior's 2007 osl
but it's not really that surprising for there to be only one player of any given race who looks like he can win a starleague. what should be notable is how many of the top players just below that level seem to be terran right now (or zerg this time last year, or protoss the fall before that)
On May 09 2010 04:21 Djabanete wrote: I'll offer you a friendly wager if you'd like --- Jaedong wins 3-0 or 3-1, you change your sig to "I was owned by angry Jaedong" for at least 2 weeks. Jaedong wins 3-2 or loses, it's a 3-month ban for me.
Just keepin' it up where Mooncat will see it. Let's do this!
On May 09 2010 04:21 Djabanete wrote: I'll offer you a friendly wager if you'd like --- Jaedong wins 3-0 or 3-1, you change your sig to "I was owned by angry Jaedong" for at least 2 weeks. Jaedong wins 3-2 or loses, it's a 3-month ban for me.
Just keepin' it up where Mooncat will see it. Let's do this!
Heh. I'll think about it Although I'd rather have you change your signature too if you lose or make you write an apology thread to Calm, I wouldn't want you to be banned.
On May 09 2010 04:21 Djabanete wrote: I'll offer you a friendly wager if you'd like --- Jaedong wins 3-0 or 3-1, you change your sig to "I was owned by angry Jaedong" for at least 2 weeks. Jaedong wins 3-2 or loses, it's a 3-month ban for me.
Just keepin' it up where Mooncat will see it. Let's do this!
Heh. I'll think about it Although I'd rather have you change your signature too if you lose or make you write an apology thread to Calm, I wouldn't want you to be banned.
Making a whole thread sounds like a lot of work. I'd rather change my sig to something about Calm. Something like "Well fuck me, Calm is actually a legit Zerg."
(Or if the apology thread is pretty straightforward without lots of pictures and shit, I could manage that. Like a letter to Calm. I'll give you good odds because honestly, Calm is gonna get taken to school so my side of the bargain isn't likely to matter much.)
On May 09 2010 16:15 TwoToneTerran wrote: Terrans are doing well in PL.
Most the good terrans who aren't flash are either slumping, PL wonders, or new. Flash is really the only title caliber terran when Fantasy is slumping.
Terrans are sub-50% in both matchups in round 4, I wouldn't exactly say they're doing well.
The biggest difference between this season and previous ones is that there were actually other Terrans for Flash to kill on his way to the semifinals.
Jaedong really is looking to regain his peak form.
I almost wish that Flash would lose the OSL finals (I don't, he really deserves a golden mouse) and spend all his time on the MSL finals to salvage one title.
On May 09 2010 16:15 TwoToneTerran wrote: Terrans are doing well in PL.
Most the good terrans who aren't flash are either slumping, PL wonders, or new. Flash is really the only title caliber terran when Fantasy is slumping.
Terrans are sub-50% in both matchups in round 4, I wouldn't exactly say they're doing well.
The biggest difference between this season and previous ones is that there were actually other Terrans for Flash to kill on his way to the semifinals.
Terran dominance took a big hit when New Tornado and Neo Moon Glaive left the map pool.
On May 10 2010 03:07 n.DieJokes wrote: If Free 3-0's FlaSh and then 3-0's Jaedong AND FlaSh loses in the OSL do you think free will be number one?
If a bomb is going to go off in 5 minutes at the local orphanage and all of the police, firefighters and hospitals are unable to get there because of a wild snorlax and you are the only one who can help them because you have the disarm codes for it and all phone companies are down so you can't call and give it to them, is it then allowed to break the speed limit when driving?
He's simply suggesting that it would be crazy if free were to 3-0 Jaedong and then 3-0 Flash in MSL, while Flash loses to the winner of Effort vs. Kal in OSL.
1. if free 3-0s flash (#1) 2. and if free 3-0s jaedong (#2) 3. and if flash also performs poorly in the OSL, let's say against an effort who previously 3-0d kal (#3),
Hmm, I've actually got a feeling that n.DieJokes was mocking people here who were discussing implications of MSL finals like Flash and JD were going to play it tomorrow whereas neither of them has even won their semifinals games. My bad if not...
is the joke that something that likely will happen is like something that likely won't happen in that either of them could hypothetically happen or not happen? it seems like if somebody said "take an umbrella it's going to rain" and the response was "i wonder if it's sunny if the meteorologists will say it's nice out"
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
You predict a 3-0 win an ZvZ Bo5? Dude... No matter who's playing, that's just crazy.If a ZvZ Bo5 goes 3-0 either way it's pure luck because chances are there's at least one build order win for the inferior player.
Furthermore it's a sad excuse to say "he didn't practice for it". Give Calm some credit here. Seriously, if there's one match-up where it doesn't hurt when you don't practice it's ZvZ, especially when you're Jaedong who had 80%+ ZvZ stats back then. What's there to practice? The 3-5 different BOs? ZvZ is the most raw talent and luck based match-up by far. Practicing won't help you much unless you do really really crazy stuff that happens to work out and even the options for that are limited.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's not bloody unlikely Jaedong could lose to Calm, so stop acting as if he were in the finals already.
The thing is, it is unlikely for Jaedong to lose to Calm. Possible, but unlikely. I'm not acting as if Jaedong is already in the finals --- I'm merely pointing out that Jaedong is a huge favorite to beat Calm and that I'll be quite surprised if he fails to.
In reponse to the part that I bolded --- I can think of at least 3 ZvZ Bo5's off the top of my head that Jaedong has won 3-0.
Which 3? He swept Fake Yellow in the Bacchus OSL final and hero in the semi-finals of the Batoo OSL. Calm beat him 3-1 in the semi-finals of the Avalon MSL.
What other ZvZ Bo5s has Jaedong played? (TLPD doesn't show any others.)
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
You predict a 3-0 win an ZvZ Bo5? Dude... No matter who's playing, that's just crazy. If a ZvZ Bo5 goes 3-0 either way it's pure luck because chances are there's at least one build order win for the inferior player.
Furthermore it's a sad excuse to say "he didn't practice for it". Give Calm some credit here. Seriously, if there's one match-up where it doesn't hurt when you don't practice it's ZvZ, especially when you're Jaedong who had 80%+ ZvZ stats back then. What's there to practice? The 3-5 different BOs? ZvZ is the most raw talent and luck based match-up by far. Practicing won't help you much unless you do really really crazy stuff that happens to work out and even the options for that are limited.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's not bloody unlikely Jaedong could lose to Calm, so stop acting as if he were in the finals already.
Jaedong lost the series against Calm because at that time Jaedong went 12 hatch every game. And Calm fully abused it by going 9pool speed every game.
Actually, Jaedong didn't go 12-hatch once in that series. Calm won the series with some very smart play and well-planned builds: give credit where it's due.
You were probably thinking of Jaedong vs. EffOrt in GOM, at around the same time.
On May 10 2010 06:04 o[twist] wrote: i think the question is
1. if free 3-0s flash (#1) 2. and if free 3-0s jaedong (#2) 3. and if flash also performs poorly in the OSL, let's say against an effort who previously 3-0d kal (#3),
would free then become #1?
i think the answer is it depends
If Free could do that then he probably would get #1. Hell, he would deserve #1. It would also be a serious blow to the bonjwa hype not only surrounding Flash, but that Jaedong has received in the past as well.
But let's be real: that's not happening. Although I think Free could manage to snipe either Flash or JD under the right conditions, sniping both of them? And not only that, sweeping them both 3-0? No way.
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
You predict a 3-0 win an ZvZ Bo5? Dude... No matter who's playing, that's just crazy. If a ZvZ Bo5 goes 3-0 either way it's pure luck because chances are there's at least one build order win for the inferior player.
Furthermore it's a sad excuse to say "he didn't practice for it". Give Calm some credit here. Seriously, if there's one match-up where it doesn't hurt when you don't practice it's ZvZ, especially when you're Jaedong who had 80%+ ZvZ stats back then. What's there to practice? The 3-5 different BOs? ZvZ is the most raw talent and luck based match-up by far. Practicing won't help you much unless you do really really crazy stuff that happens to work out and even the options for that are limited.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's not bloody unlikely Jaedong could lose to Calm, so stop acting as if he were in the finals already.
Jaedong lost the series against Calm because at that time Jaedong went 12 hatch every game. And Calm fully abused it by going 9pool speed every game.
Actually, Jaedong didn't go 12-hatch once in that series. Calm won the series with some very smart play and well-planned builds: give credit where it's due.
You were probably thinking of Jaedong vs. EffOrt in GOM, at around the same time.
Nope, hes thinking of Effort vs Calm where calm went 9pool speed twice or thrice vs Effort who 12hatched all 3 games, needless to say it was hilarious
On May 10 2010 20:55 Cpadolf wrote: Things are starting to look like they did leading up to the last MSL final, complete domination from both Flash and Jaedong.
This could get epic
Can you imagine a 3-2 final between them? I wouldn't even care who won.
Making maybe a totally useless statement but if Flash hadn't lost one game to fantasy and focused more vs MVP who he clearly can beat without a sweat he would be on a 24 game winning streak.!
On May 10 2010 22:00 StylishVODs wrote: Making maybe a totally useless statement but if Flash hadn't lost one game to fantasy and focused more vs MVP who he clearly can beat without a sweat he would be on a 24 game winning streak.!
That's really useless. -_- That's like
Hey guys! You know if Jaedong hand't lost to Flash in the last OSL and beat him like in the MSL finals he would have raped Calm and Movie to get a fourth OSL! ...
On May 10 2010 22:00 StylishVODs wrote: Making maybe a totally useless statement but if Flash hadn't lost one game to fantasy and focused more vs MVP who he clearly can beat without a sweat he would be on a 24 game winning streak.!
That's really useless. -_- That's like
Hey guys! You know if Jaedong hand't lost to Flash in the last OSL and beat him like in the MSL finals he would have raped Calm and Movie to get a fourth OSL! ...
Sliiiiight exeggeration but I get the point... I even mentioned it.
actually i didn't think it was useless. i considered making the same point - in the sense that i wanted to say, his silly loss to fantasy is the first one that lost a match for his team or him personally since leta's all-kill during WL
On May 10 2010 22:00 StylishVODs wrote: Making maybe a totally useless statement but if Flash hadn't lost one game to fantasy and focused more vs MVP who he clearly can beat without a sweat he would be on a 24 game winning streak.!
That's really useless. -_- That's like
Hey guys! You know if Jaedong hand't lost to Flash in the last OSL and beat him like in the MSL finals he would have raped Calm and Movie to get a fourth OSL! ...
Sliiiiight exeggeration but I get the point... I even mentioned it.
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
You predict a 3-0 win an ZvZ Bo5? Dude... No matter who's playing, that's just crazy.If a ZvZ Bo5 goes 3-0 either way it's pure luck because chances are there's at least one build order win for the inferior player.
Furthermore it's a sad excuse to say "he didn't practice for it". Give Calm some credit here. Seriously, if there's one match-up where it doesn't hurt when you don't practice it's ZvZ, especially when you're Jaedong who had 80%+ ZvZ stats back then. What's there to practice? The 3-5 different BOs? ZvZ is the most raw talent and luck based match-up by far. Practicing won't help you much unless you do really really crazy stuff that happens to work out and even the options for that are limited.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's not bloody unlikely Jaedong could lose to Calm, so stop acting as if he were in the finals already.
The thing is, it is unlikely for Jaedong to lose to Calm. Possible, but unlikely. I'm not acting as if Jaedong is already in the finals --- I'm merely pointing out that Jaedong is a huge favorite to beat Calm and that I'll be quite surprised if he fails to.
In reponse to the part that I bolded --- I can think of at least 3 ZvZ Bo5's off the top of my head that Jaedong has won 3-0.
Which 3? He swept Fake Yellow in the Bacchus OSL final and hero in the semi-finals of the Batoo OSL. Calm beat him 3-1 in the semi-finals of the Avalon MSL.
What other ZvZ Bo5s has Jaedong played? (TLPD doesn't show any others.)
Haha you got me. I just remembered that for some reason I was remembering Jaedong as having beaten type-b, but it was Yarnc who eliminated him. So, my mistake. I still feel pretty confident that Jaedong will take this though, and my wager with Mooncat stands, if he agrees to it.
On May 09 2010 03:13 Mooncat wrote: Uhm... guys? You know Jaedong is not in the finals yet right? Calm has beaten him once in a Bo5, he can do so again. Not to mention that JD's ZvZ looks far from invincible atm. I'm not saying he's not the favorite, but Jesus Christ ZvZ is so unpredictable, he's far from 100% in the finals yet.
I seriously doubt that Calm can beat Jaedong in a Bo5 that Jaedong actually practices for. Last time, Jaedong was focused on the Golden Mouse and admitted in his winner's interview after beating Fantasy that he basically hadn't practiced for the MSL at all. This time, Jaedong has only the MSL to focus on and it's obvious which player is in better form. Jaedong will win 3-1 or 3-0 over Calm if they meet in a Bo5.
You predict a 3-0 win an ZvZ Bo5? Dude... No matter who's playing, that's just crazy. If a ZvZ Bo5 goes 3-0 either way it's pure luck because chances are there's at least one build order win for the inferior player.
Furthermore it's a sad excuse to say "he didn't practice for it". Give Calm some credit here. Seriously, if there's one match-up where it doesn't hurt when you don't practice it's ZvZ, especially when you're Jaedong who had 80%+ ZvZ stats back then. What's there to practice? The 3-5 different BOs? ZvZ is the most raw talent and luck based match-up by far. Practicing won't help you much unless you do really really crazy stuff that happens to work out and even the options for that are limited.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that it's not bloody unlikely Jaedong could lose to Calm, so stop acting as if he were in the finals already.
I don't think it's always crazy to predict a 3-0 in any way. When Jaedong was about to face hero in the OSL I laughed at anybody who didn't predict a 3-0 or at the very least a 3-1
Also Jaedong might not be invicible in ZvZ, but he won 15/18 of his last ZvZs, I think that's pretty good. Of course it's not 100% he'll beat calm (against hero it was really really close to 100%), but calm is the big underdog obviously.
Other than that I totally forgot checking Power Rank this month. Seems like plexa dislikes all the players I'm a fan of but oh well. I agree with the top3, for the rest I havent been watching enough games to judge. Other than a jaedong flash finals I believe that effort vs kal will be the most exciting series we will get to see this season. I'm sooooooooooooooo pumped about it, I'll be sooo excited seeing effort murder kal in close matches. I just hope he doesn't choke. I BELIEVE (such an appropriate sentence, when refering to alien effort)
The difference is significant, not to mention the actual games behind those results. No one says JD is slumping, but Flash is clearly the better player atm. In case I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.
The difference is significant, not to mention the actual games behind those results. No one says JD is slumping, but Flash is clearly the better player atm. In case I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.
Actually there were lots of people saying JD was slumping
The difference is significant, not to mention the actual games behind those results. No one says JD is slumping, but Flash is clearly the better player atm. In case I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.
JD is playing well, but the difference between Flash and JD statwise is huge, not just significant.
JD: 68% winrate; he loses one game for every ~2 he wins
Flash: 88% winrate; he loses one game for every ~7 he wins
i.e., Flash's performance is about three times better than Jaedong's according to these stats.
"win rate" is a very deceptive statistic, since it doesn't corollate linearly with performance. Going from 60 to 70% is good, but it is much much more impressive and difficult to go from 80 to 90%, since you are halving the number of losses.
btw, the "wins per loss" stat can be calculated from win% easily: 1/(1 - win%) - 1. It is actually a quite good general-purpose "power" statistic, in that you could say that someone with 2 times this stat is roughly twice as good. It also has nice properties, like that someone with a 50% winrate has "power" 1.0, and all 0-50% winrates fall between 0. and 1.0.
tl;dr JD plays 10 games and loses 3; Flash playes 10 games and loses 1.2. This is a huge difference
On May 11 2010 07:30 WWJDD wrote: Jaedong slumping hard. Only 40 wins this season compared to Flash's 50 wins in pro-league.
He was slumping for a little while losing to every zerg and terran on the face of the planet but hey I wouldn't expect someone with the handle "What would Jaedong do" to be reasonable in any sort of way when it comes to Jaedong.
He never lost to every zerg. Maybe during earlier in the season when he was hitting fifty percent, but when he did bad against Terran he was smoking zergs. Chill with the ad hominem.
The difference is significant, not to mention the actual games behind those results. No one says JD is slumping, but Flash is clearly the better player atm. In case I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.
JD is playing well, but the difference between Flash and JD statwise is huge, not just significant.
JD: 68% winrate; he loses one game for every ~2 he wins
Flash: 88% winrate; he loses one game for every ~7 he wins
i.e., Flash's performance is about three times better than Jaedong's according to these stats.
"win rate" is a very deceptive statistic, since it doesn't corollate linearly with performance. Going from 60 to 70% is good, but it is much much more impressive and difficult to go from 80 to 90%, since you are halving the number of losses.
btw, the "wins per loss" stat can be calculated from win% easily: 1/(1 - win%) - 1. It is actually a quite good general-purpose "power" statistic, in that you could say that someone with 2 times this stat is roughly twice as good. It also has nice properties, like that someone with a 50% winrate has "power" 1.0, and all 0-50% winrates fall between 0. and 1.0.
tl;dr JD plays 10 games and loses 3; Flash playes 10 games and loses 1.2. This is a huge difference
Yeah.. that's fair! compare Flash’s best winrate ever over 100 games vs JD’s overall career stats just after coming out of a slump. You know, why don’t you just compare their league wins: JD has to win 2.5 SL’s for every one that Flash wins. Do you know how difficult that is?! You can roughly say that JD is three times better than Flash!
I’m ofc being sarcastic, JD has a long long way to go to catch up to Flash right now. But that’s not a reason to post stats like that.
The difference is significant, not to mention the actual games behind those results. No one says JD is slumping, but Flash is clearly the better player atm. In case I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.
JD is playing well, but the difference between Flash and JD statwise is huge, not just significant.
JD: 68% winrate; he loses one game for every ~2 he wins
Flash: 88% winrate; he loses one game for every ~7 he wins
i.e., Flash's performance is about three times better than Jaedong's according to these stats.
"win rate" is a very deceptive statistic, since it doesn't corollate linearly with performance. Going from 60 to 70% is good, but it is much much more impressive and difficult to go from 80 to 90%, since you are halving the number of losses.
btw, the "wins per loss" stat can be calculated from win% easily: 1/(1 - win%) - 1. It is actually a quite good general-purpose "power" statistic, in that you could say that someone with 2 times this stat is roughly twice as good. It also has nice properties, like that someone with a 50% winrate has "power" 1.0, and all 0-50% winrates fall between 0. and 1.0.
tl;dr JD plays 10 games and loses 3; Flash playes 10 games and loses 1.2. This is a huge difference
Yeah.. that's fair! compare Flash’s best winrate ever over 100 games vs JD’s overall career stats just after coming out of a slump. You know, why don’t you just compare their league wins: JD has to win 2.5 SL’s for every one that Flash wins. Do you know how difficult that is?! You can roughly say that JD is three times better than Flash!
I’m ofc being sarcastic, JD has a long long way to go to catch up to Flash right now. But that’s not a reason to post stats like that.
rofl seriously wtf
If were gonna go with career win rate then its JD 68% vs flash 71%. Not as much of a difference now is it. Maybe I should just take the last 8 games JD played "OMG JAEDONG 100% win rate >>>> Flash 71% win rate"
On May 11 2010 18:54 SuperArc wrote: We have both JvZ and EvZ back. :o
Resurgence from swarm season?
ayayay, every time some random thought emerges in your head you have to post it on TL, don't you? There is no such thing like EvZ and there never was. A few 6-7 game-winning streaks and beating JD in a Bo3 does not make you a master of a specific matchup.
The difference is significant, not to mention the actual games behind those results. No one says JD is slumping, but Flash is clearly the better player atm. In case I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.
JD is playing well, but the difference between Flash and JD statwise is huge, not just significant.
JD: 68% winrate; he loses one game for every ~2 he wins
Flash: 88% winrate; he loses one game for every ~7 he wins
i.e., Flash's performance is about three times better than Jaedong's according to these stats.
"win rate" is a very deceptive statistic, since it doesn't corollate linearly with performance. Going from 60 to 70% is good, but it is much much more impressive and difficult to go from 80 to 90%, since you are halving the number of losses.
btw, the "wins per loss" stat can be calculated from win% easily: 1/(1 - win%) - 1. It is actually a quite good general-purpose "power" statistic, in that you could say that someone with 2 times this stat is roughly twice as good. It also has nice properties, like that someone with a 50% winrate has "power" 1.0, and all 0-50% winrates fall between 0. and 1.0.
tl;dr JD plays 10 games and loses 3; Flash playes 10 games and loses 1.2. This is a huge difference
Yeah.. that's fair! compare Flash’s best winrate ever over 100 games vs JD’s overall career stats just after coming out of a slump. You know, why don’t you just compare their league wins: JD has to win 2.5 SL’s for every one that Flash wins. Do you know how difficult that is?! You can roughly say that JD is three times better than Flash!
I’m ofc being sarcastic, JD has a long long way to go to catch up to Flash right now. But that’s not a reason to post stats like that.
rofl seriously wtf
If were gonna go with career win rate then its JD 68% vs flash 71%. Not as much of a difference now is it. Maybe I should just take the last 8 games JD played "OMG JAEDONG 100% win rate >>>> Flash 71% win rate"
On May 11 2010 18:54 SuperArc wrote: We have both JvZ and EvZ back. :o
Resurgence from swarm season?
ayayay, every time some random thought emerges in your head you have to post it on TL, don't you? There is no such thing like EvZ and there never was. A few 6-7 game-winning streaks and beating JD in a Bo3 does not make you a master of a specific matchup.
Actually beating Jaedong in that bo3 wasn't any games where I would have said this is EvZ.
Effort's play style of ZvZ is completely different to other zergs. It's not even close to being as dominant as JvZ, but no one plays like him.
On May 05 2010 15:25 Holgerius wrote: Never let Fantasy back on the PR no matter what he accomplishes. He should have a lifelong ban for that last game.
On May 05 2010 15:25 Holgerius wrote: Never let Fantasy back on the PR no matter what he accomplishes. He should have a lifelong ban for that last game.
I just have to repeat this. Holy fuck...
hahahahahahahaha
in a kind of obliquely related point, i was just rereading the power rank where flash got put on CBNC last year. lolololol
SuperArc, Even though I agree that Effort is playing well vs zergs again, you can't throw out titles of "Player"v"Race" like that. They have to be earned!
The difference is significant, not to mention the actual games behind those results. No one says JD is slumping, but Flash is clearly the better player atm. In case I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.
JD is playing well, but the difference between Flash and JD statwise is huge, not just significant.
JD: 68% winrate; he loses one game for every ~2 he wins
Flash: 88% winrate; he loses one game for every ~7 he wins
i.e., Flash's performance is about three times better than Jaedong's according to these stats.
"win rate" is a very deceptive statistic, since it doesn't corollate linearly with performance. Going from 60 to 70% is good, but it is much much more impressive and difficult to go from 80 to 90%, since you are halving the number of losses.
btw, the "wins per loss" stat can be calculated from win% easily: 1/(1 - win%) - 1. It is actually a quite good general-purpose "power" statistic, in that you could say that someone with 2 times this stat is roughly twice as good. It also has nice properties, like that someone with a 50% winrate has "power" 1.0, and all 0-50% winrates fall between 0. and 1.0.
tl;dr JD plays 10 games and loses 3; Flash playes 10 games and loses 1.2. This is a huge difference
Yeah.. that's fair! compare Flash’s best winrate ever over 100 games vs JD’s overall career stats just after coming out of a slump. You know, why don’t you just compare their league wins: JD has to win 2.5 SL’s for every one that Flash wins. Do you know how difficult that is?! You can roughly say that JD is three times better than Flash!
I’m ofc being sarcastic, JD has a long long way to go to catch up to Flash right now. But that’s not a reason to post stats like that.
Yeah the stats he used was abit misleading, however the point he was making was legit.
This year Jaedong has 70% and Flash 80%. The point is saying jaedong has 40wins and 50wins isn't doing the players justice.
On May 11 2010 20:36 StylishVODs wrote: SuperArc, Even though I agree that Effort is playing well vs zergs again, you can't throw out titles of "Player"v"Race" like that. They have to be earned!
I hope he will continue to perform though.
It wasn't me who invented the term EvZ?
Sheesh it's like I am the cause for anything you guys don't like...
The difference is significant, not to mention the actual games behind those results. No one says JD is slumping, but Flash is clearly the better player atm. In case I misinterpreted your post, I apologize.
JD is playing well, but the difference between Flash and JD statwise is huge, not just significant.
JD: 68% winrate; he loses one game for every ~2 he wins
Flash: 88% winrate; he loses one game for every ~7 he wins
i.e., Flash's performance is about three times better than Jaedong's according to these stats.
"win rate" is a very deceptive statistic, since it doesn't corollate linearly with performance. Going from 60 to 70% is good, but it is much much more impressive and difficult to go from 80 to 90%, since you are halving the number of losses.
btw, the "wins per loss" stat can be calculated from win% easily: 1/(1 - win%) - 1. It is actually a quite good general-purpose "power" statistic, in that you could say that someone with 2 times this stat is roughly twice as good. It also has nice properties, like that someone with a 50% winrate has "power" 1.0, and all 0-50% winrates fall between 0. and 1.0.
tl;dr JD plays 10 games and loses 3; Flash playes 10 games and loses 1.2. This is a huge difference
Yeah.. that's fair! compare Flash’s best winrate ever over 100 games vs JD’s overall career stats just after coming out of a slump. You know, why don’t you just compare their league wins: JD has to win 2.5 SL’s for every one that Flash wins. Do you know how difficult that is?! You can roughly say that JD is three times better than Flash!
I’m ofc being sarcastic, JD has a long long way to go to catch up to Flash right now. But that’s not a reason to post stats like that.
rofl seriously wtf
If were gonna go with career win rate then its JD 68% vs flash 71%. Not as much of a difference now is it. Maybe I should just take the last 8 games JD played "OMG JAEDONG 100% win rate >>>> Flash 71% win rate"
He just compared their PL win rates....
hm ok I fail then T_T figured he was talking about career win rate because thats 68% as well.
still you can change the numbers of games to review and they will probably in any case make the difference between jaedong and flash smaller than the 68 to 88%
And to say that Flash is "3 times better" than jaedong because he loses a third of the games is pretty stupid imo.
On May 11 2010 20:36 StylishVODs wrote: SuperArc, Even though I agree that Effort is playing well vs zergs again, you can't throw out titles of "Player"v"Race" like that. They have to be earned!
I hope he will continue to perform though.
It wasn't me who invented the term EvZ?
Sheesh it's like I am the cause for anything you guys don't like...
I wasn't trying to be offensive, just pointing out my oppinion. Sorry then:/ I never heard EvZ before...
On May 05 2010 15:25 Holgerius wrote: Never let Fantasy back on the PR no matter what he accomplishes. He should have a lifelong ban for that last game.
I just have to repeat this. Holy fuck...
hahahahahahahaha
in a kind of obliquely related point, i was just rereading the power rank where flash got put on CBNC last year. lolololol
Yeah if Flash was 3x better than jaedong he would wipe him like nothing, which ofcourse isn't true. However his performance this year have been ALOT better than jaedong. 80%>>70%...
Jaedong is on a roll lately, he will rise up i think. Flash has alot better record over this year so far but I hope Jaedong can catch up for an epic rivalry.
On May 11 2010 20:46 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah if Flash was 3x better than jaedong he would wipe him like nothing, which ofcourse isn't true. However his performance this year have been ALOT better than jaedong. 80%>>70%...
Jaedong is on a roll lately, he will rise up i think. Flash has alot better record over this year so far but I hope Jaedong can catch up for an epic rivalry.
yeah I agree. Here's to hoping that this seasons msl finals will be much, much better than the last
On May 11 2010 20:36 StylishVODs wrote: SuperArc, Even though I agree that Effort is playing well vs zergs again, you can't throw out titles of "Player"v"Race" like that. They have to be earned!
I hope he will continue to perform though.
It wasn't me who invented the term EvZ?
Sheesh it's like I am the cause for anything you guys don't like...
Gee, I like most of your posts, SuperArc, but when I saw "EvZ" I had the same reaction. Given at a time when Jaedong had an over-80% career win-rate in a match-up that seemed to be luck-based for everyone else, "JvZ" was a title of transcendence, implying that Jaedong's ZvZ was so different from everyone else's that it deserved to be in a category of its own. Once you start tossing phrases like that around lightly, you cheapen them. Effort's little win-streak does not remotely warrant a title such as "EvZ", and what's more, if it did, then we should just stop using those terms altogether and say that nowadays players have gotten better at the match-up.
I just wanted to point out that Jaedong had 40 wins and quite a few people consider him to be slumping. I wanted to point out the unreasonable expectations people have of JD and it brings the Flash fangirls out of the woodwork as if I had blasphemed their hero.
Stop reading between the lines everytime. Sometimes what a line means is all it says.
On May 12 2010 06:31 WWJDD wrote: I just wanted to point out that Jaedong had 40 wins and quite a few people consider him to be slumping. I wanted to point out the unreasonable expectations people have of JD and it brings the Flash fangirls out of the woodwork as if I had blasphemed their hero.
Stop reading between the lines everytime. Sometimes what a line means is all it says.
People considered Jaedong slumping, which he did for a few months. From february to mid march he had about 50% winratio, thats why.
Now people don't think he's slumping anymore. He's back. and he's #2 on PR. So whats the point of poiting it out now?
And if your name is WWJDD and you call other people "Flash fangirls" don't expect to be taken seriously.
On May 11 2010 20:36 StylishVODs wrote: SuperArc, Even though I agree that Effort is playing well vs zergs again, you can't throw out titles of "Player"v"Race" like that. They have to be earned!
I hope he will continue to perform though.
It wasn't me who invented the term EvZ?
Sheesh it's like I am the cause for anything you guys don't like...
Gee, I like most of your posts, SuperArc, but when I saw "EvZ" I had the same reaction. Given at a time when Jaedong had an over-80% career win-rate in a match-up that seemed to be luck-based for everyone else, "JvZ" was a title of transcendence, implying that Jaedong's ZvZ was so different from everyone else's that it deserved to be in a category of its own. Once you start tossing phrases like that around lightly, you cheapen them. Effort's little win-streak does not remotely warrant a title such as "EvZ", and what's more, if it did, then we should just stop using those terms altogether and say that nowadays players have gotten better at the match-up.
The term "EvZ" came from when EffOrt was playing at 70% win percentage (Jaedong was playing at 80% at the time) and he had a vastly different style than JD. While Jaedong usually tried to play even or gain an advantage with zerglings, EffOrt played significantly more aggressively with his zerglings, and often sought to end the game with them. EffOrt rarely kept one army together and played with a ton of single/double ling harass and scouting. Jaedong beat you with fundamentals, EffOrt beat you with multi-tasking. Both had/have excellent ZvZ decision making.
The typical EffOrt ZvZ is probably a twelve hatch into mass lings, and then mutas to clean up. Now that EffOrt is playing up to his prior ZvZ standards, it's probably legit to dust off the term again.
On May 06 2010 10:08 Trezeguet23 wrote: Is MVP being in the power rank the first time that a player who doesn't have a single matchup above 50% winrate has made the top 10?
Then I'd say that term has become cheap.. 80% is vastly superior to 70% and 70% winratio imo doesn't merrit such a title. But in the end it doesn't really matter to me, people will use terms loosely wether I like it or not. Just like the word Epic :/
On May 11 2010 20:36 StylishVODs wrote: SuperArc, Even though I agree that Effort is playing well vs zergs again, you can't throw out titles of "Player"v"Race" like that. They have to be earned!
I hope he will continue to perform though.
It wasn't me who invented the term EvZ?
Sheesh it's like I am the cause for anything you guys don't like...
Gee, I like most of your posts, SuperArc, but when I saw "EvZ" I had the same reaction. Given at a time when Jaedong had an over-80% career win-rate in a match-up that seemed to be luck-based for everyone else, "JvZ" was a title of transcendence, implying that Jaedong's ZvZ was so different from everyone else's that it deserved to be in a category of its own. Once you start tossing phrases like that around lightly, you cheapen them. Effort's little win-streak does not remotely warrant a title such as "EvZ", and what's more, if it did, then we should just stop using those terms altogether and say that nowadays players have gotten better at the match-up.
The term "EvZ" came from when EffOrt was playing at 70% win percentage (Jaedong was playing at 80% at the time) and he had a vastly different style than JD. While Jaedong usually tried to play even or gain an advantage with zerglings, EffOrt played significantly more aggressively with his zerglings, and often sought to end the game with them. EffOrt rarely kept one army together and played with a ton of single/double ling harass and scouting. Jaedong beat you with fundamentals, EffOrt beat you with multi-tasking. Both had/have excellent ZvZ decision making.
The typical EffOrt ZvZ is probably a twelve hatch into mass lings, and then mutas to clean up. Now that EffOrt is playing up to his prior ZvZ standards, it's probably legit to dust off the term again.
Did you recently switch to having a CJ sign or am I imagining things?
On May 11 2010 20:36 StylishVODs wrote: SuperArc, Even though I agree that Effort is playing well vs zergs again, you can't throw out titles of "Player"v"Race" like that. They have to be earned!
I hope he will continue to perform though.
It wasn't me who invented the term EvZ?
Sheesh it's like I am the cause for anything you guys don't like...
Gee, I like most of your posts, SuperArc, but when I saw "EvZ" I had the same reaction. Given at a time when Jaedong had an over-80% career win-rate in a match-up that seemed to be luck-based for everyone else, "JvZ" was a title of transcendence, implying that Jaedong's ZvZ was so different from everyone else's that it deserved to be in a category of its own. Once you start tossing phrases like that around lightly, you cheapen them. Effort's little win-streak does not remotely warrant a title such as "EvZ", and what's more, if it did, then we should just stop using those terms altogether and say that nowadays players have gotten better at the match-up.
The term "EvZ" came from when EffOrt was playing at 70% win percentage (Jaedong was playing at 80% at the time) and he had a vastly different style than JD. While Jaedong usually tried to play even or gain an advantage with zerglings, EffOrt played significantly more aggressively with his zerglings, and often sought to end the game with them. EffOrt rarely kept one army together and played with a ton of single/double ling harass and scouting. Jaedong beat you with fundamentals, EffOrt beat you with multi-tasking. Both had/have excellent ZvZ decision making.
The typical EffOrt ZvZ is probably a twelve hatch into mass lings, and then mutas to clean up. Now that EffOrt is playing up to his prior ZvZ standards, it's probably legit to dust off the term again.
The last time when Effort was playing around 70 percentage was in july 2009, when he had around 30-40 games played in total (25-11 on july 15 for a quick check on my part). If anyone ever used this term then he was just wrong. I guess people were sure that Effort would be the next big zerg after Jaedong, and since there was JvZ, during Efforts ridiculous streak (sth. like 26-2) someone came up with that term to compare him with the Dong. Anyway, I hope it never catches on. You don't make up those terms for describing a playstyle, you use them for utter domination.
Yeah.. that's fair! compare Flash’s best winrate ever over 100 games vs JD’s overall career stats just after coming out of a slump. You know, why don’t you just compare their league wins: JD has to win 2.5 SL’s for every one that Flash wins. Do you know how difficult that is?! You can roughly say that JD is three times better than Flash!
I’m ofc being sarcastic, JD has a long long way to go to catch up to Flash right now. But that’s not a reason to post stats like that.
I was using the stats from this Proleague season that Mooncat provided:
Flash 51 wins - 7 losses
Jaedong 38 wins - 18 losses
This is a representative sample of their recent performance, don't you think?
And for all you jokers criticizing my post, you aren't getting the point. The point isn't that Flash is 3x better than jaedong in some absolute sense, but that he is performing 3x better in proleague (obviously, general starcraft "goodness" has to take into account things like performing in boX in leagues, ability to handle pressure, etc.)
It _is_ 3x harder to maintain a 90% winrate than it is a 70% winrate.
Yeah i don't think people (i hope not) actually thought you said he was 3x better in terms of skill And I think those stats are pretty representative so far, however it's changing now since Jaedong is starting to win everything again.
the only way for flash to be toppled, is for him to break a hand (his right so he cant maneuver the mouse) and for jaedong to suddenly break out and thrash like savior did. if he cant do that, then flash will stay on that list for a long time. really, the only players well deserving on that list is flash, jaedong, and maybe kal. if effort beats kal to advance into the finals vs flash, and flash beats him soundly, then jaedong will have to watch out. effort isnt one to be taken lightly.
Flash Jaedong(2 wins over ZerO and over Fantasy and great) Kal free(doing pretty damn good recently) Midas(maybe put effort and calm before Midas and BaBy) BaBy(Lost to Guemchi but strong other than that) Effort(on a tear) Calm(back to form?) RorO(where did he come from?) Lomo(>Stork and Bisu? wtf?)
On May 13 2010 13:41 Shotcoder wrote: Lomo(>Stork and Bisu? wtf?)
well obviously they're slumping!
also roro... lol?
I don't care if Bisu and Stork are slumping....it's Lomo.....And since late April he's 3-2 losing to Flash and free. And there's a lot of people who could grab the 10th spot... Action, Really, Shuttle, great, Reach, Iris, HyuN, the list goes on of mediocre players who are doing well so far in may.
and Yes RorO, he's already beaten Jaehoon, Yellow, ZerO and PuMa this month. And really he should have lost that game vs Jaehoon.
Bisu always says the maps suck for protoss. But when Stork starts saying the map sucks. Then we have a problem. Really wish that Bisu and Stork can make a comeback soon since they are the most dominant Protoss of all times (maybe include Nalra in there).
On May 13 2010 15:03 LunarDestiny wrote: Bisu and Stork...
Bisu always says the maps suck for protoss. But when Stork starts saying the map sucks. Then we have a problem. Really wish that Bisu and Stork can make a comeback soon since they are the most dominant Protoss of all times (maybe include Nalra in there).
Is Bisu wrong when he claims the maps suck for Protoss? If memory serves, the original complaint was about Tears of the Moon, which was in fact grossly imbalanced Z>>P due to the open natural and 8-mineral main.
Which maps did he wrongfully claim were bad for Protoss?
On May 13 2010 15:03 LunarDestiny wrote: Bisu and Stork...
Bisu always says the maps suck for protoss. But when Stork starts saying the map sucks. Then we have a problem. Really wish that Bisu and Stork can make a comeback soon since they are the most dominant Protoss of all times (maybe include Nalra in there).
Bisu's and Stork's losses haven't come from map's fault at all. It's their horrible decision making.
what shall we do here ? its just not fair to have anyone on #2 place.. And reading flash description makes me think he is not given enough credit for what he is currently doing
On May 13 2010 19:39 Samurai- wrote: what shall we do here ? its just not fair to have anyone on #2 place.. And reading flash description makes me think he is not given enough credit for what he is currently doing
So; Flash 3-0's one of the strongest P's out there in roughly an hour (using Firebats in one game) and by doing so he reaches CONSECUTIVE DUAL FINALS! WAAAAAH, THIS IS GETTING OUT OF CONTROL!
Oh, did I mention that he also broke the ELO peaks both overall and vP?
On May 13 2010 20:15 Holgerius wrote: So; Flash 3-0's one of the strongest P's out there in roughly an hour (using Firebats in one game) and by doing so he reaches CONSECUTIVE DUAL FINALS! WAAAAAH, THIS IS GETTING OUT OF CONTROL!
Oh, did I mention that he also broke the ELO peaks both overall and vP?
It's amazing to see how he has become such a master of mind games. Both the Bo5's vs MVP and Free were him getting free wins because he just smashed them in that department. Combine that with being unbeatable in straight up macro games in all MU's and you have the Ultimate Weapon; God Young Ho!
On May 13 2010 20:23 Holgerius wrote: It's amazing to see how he has become such a master of mind games. Both the Bo5's vs MVP and Free were him getting free wins because he just smashed them in that department. Combine that with being unbeatable in straight up macro games in all MU's and you have the Ultimate Weapon; God Young Ho!
Flash always was a master in mindgames. Only Jaedong is better.
This is all bo5s are about, confidence. In bo5s not the better player always wins, but the more confident one!
Jaedong is the only person who's not afraid of Flash. This is why JD vs Flash bo5s are so great and anticipated. Neither will ever fear the other.
So flash is on his 11 game winstreak now. I bet he will win one more game and then drop the next. Somehow players always lose their 13th game on a winstreak. So he's going to be down 0-1 in a Bo5 !
On another note. It's almost amusing how people call flash opponents really bad. As if they suddenly slumped RIGHT BEFORE they played flash. Free has been doing well lately which means he's in pretty good shape. You must try to understand that it's Flash's play that makes them look bad, not their own play. He's 26-2 in tvp for a reason you know..
One really good thing is that Flash's tvp can no longer be considered boring by anyone. He is relentlessly agressive nowadays.
On May 13 2010 20:53 StylishVODs wrote: So flash is on his 11 game winstreak now. I bet he will win one more game and then drop the next. Somehow players always lose their 13th game on a winstreak. So he's going to be down 0-1 in a Bo5 !
On another note. It's almost amusing how people call flash opponents really bad. As if they suddenly slumped RIGHT BEFORE they played flash. Free has been doing well lately which means he's in pretty good shape. You must try to understand that it's Flash's play that makes them look bad, not their own play. He's 26-2 in tvp for a reason you know..
One really good thing is that Flash's tvp can no longer be considered boring by anyone. He is relentlessly agressive nowadays.
You forgot proleague. CJ vs KT is coming. And free didn't play very convincing vs Hiya either. So a crushing defeat against Flash was inevitable.
So Holgerius, Movie played the closest protoss BoX against Flash since Bisu.
On May 13 2010 20:53 StylishVODs wrote: So flash is on his 11 game winstreak now. I bet he will win one more game and then drop the next. Somehow players always lose their 13th game on a winstreak. So he's going to be down 0-1 in a Bo5 !
On another note. It's almost amusing how people call flash opponents really bad. As if they suddenly slumped RIGHT BEFORE they played flash. Free has been doing well lately which means he's in pretty good shape. You must try to understand that it's Flash's play that makes them look bad, not their own play. He's 26-2 in tvp for a reason you know..
One really good thing is that Flash's tvp can no longer be considered boring by anyone. He is relentlessly agressive nowadays.
You forgot proleague. CJ vs KT is coming. And free didn't play very convincing vs Hiya either. So a crushing defeat against Flash was inevitable.
No I was taking that into account after his win vs CJ he will be on a 12game winstreak. Thats the limit, then he will lose his first game in a Bo5!
On May 13 2010 20:53 StylishVODs wrote: So flash is on his 11 game winstreak now. I bet he will win one more game and then drop the next. Somehow players always lose their 13th game on a winstreak. So he's going to be down 0-1 in a Bo5 !
On another note. It's almost amusing how people call flash opponents really bad. As if they suddenly slumped RIGHT BEFORE they played flash. Free has been doing well lately which means he's in pretty good shape. You must try to understand that it's Flash's play that makes them look bad, not their own play. He's 26-2 in tvp for a reason you know..
One really good thing is that Flash's tvp can no longer be considered boring by anyone. He is relentlessly agressive nowadays.
You forgot proleague. CJ vs KT is coming. And free didn't play very convincing vs Hiya either. So a crushing defeat against Flash was inevitable.
No I was taking that into account after his win vs CJ he will be on a 12game winstreak. Thats the limit, then he will lose his first game in a Bo5!
Then you ignored estro? And is this a sign that KT will get 3-1ed?
On May 13 2010 21:04 Holgerius wrote: Holy fucking hell, Flash is currently over 2300 in every single MU. The only players to EVER reach above 2300 in ANY MU are Oov and JD (both vZ).
On May 13 2010 21:00 SuperArc wrote: So Holgerius, Movie played the closest protoss BoX against Flash since Bisu.
Good for him. If only he could ever play decently against any other T he might be considered an average, mediocre PvT'er.
Movie's macro is better then Pure and Free's. He only shows his potential against zergs though, none the less his macro his strong against all three races, and he did out-macro Flash in game 3 in the OSL finals. But yeah his PvT and PvP needs serious work. If Movie played against Flash in the OSL semi-finals, he would have lost just as bad as Pure and Free.
On May 13 2010 20:53 StylishVODs wrote: So flash is on his 11 game winstreak now. I bet he will win one more game and then drop the next. Somehow players always lose their 13th game on a winstreak. So he's going to be down 0-1 in a Bo5 !
On another note. It's almost amusing how people call flash opponents really bad. As if they suddenly slumped RIGHT BEFORE they played flash. Free has been doing well lately which means he's in pretty good shape. You must try to understand that it's Flash's play that makes them look bad, not their own play. He's 26-2 in tvp for a reason you know..
One really good thing is that Flash's tvp can no longer be considered boring by anyone. He is relentlessly agressive nowadays.
You forgot proleague. CJ vs KT is coming. And free didn't play very convincing vs Hiya either. So a crushing defeat against Flash was inevitable.
No I was taking that into account after his win vs CJ he will be on a 12game winstreak. Thats the limit, then he will lose his first game in a Bo5!
Then you ignored estro? And is this a sign that KT will get 3-1ed?
Wow yeah I guess I did Well then either way KT's gonna lose 0-3 to eSTRO! Coz if flash plays he'll lose and if he doesn't... 13th game curse.
This kid is ridiculous. Flash just set a new record: elo 2443. I won't be surprised if he manages to break 2450 very soon. And he is over 230 elo points above 3rd player...
On May 13 2010 20:53 StylishVODs wrote: So flash is on his 11 game winstreak now. I bet he will win one more game and then drop the next. Somehow players always lose their 13th game on a winstreak. So he's going to be down 0-1 in a Bo5 !
On another note. It's almost amusing how people call flash opponents really bad. As if they suddenly slumped RIGHT BEFORE they played flash. Free has been doing well lately which means he's in pretty good shape. You must try to understand that it's Flash's play that makes them look bad, not their own play. He's 26-2 in tvp for a reason you know..
One really good thing is that Flash's tvp can no longer be considered boring by anyone. He is relentlessly agressive nowadays.
You forgot proleague. CJ vs KT is coming. And free didn't play very convincing vs Hiya either. So a crushing defeat against Flash was inevitable.
So Holgerius, Movie played the closest protoss BoX against Flash since Bisu.
CJ so sexy. <3
In defense of free, I want to say that even if HiyA screwed up, free still came back from 0-2 to win that series, and HiyA is known for his TvP. I wrote free off as soon as I saw he had to play HiyA and I'm amazed he got to semifinals, regardless of how "convincing" or not his play was.
What are we going to call Flash if he loses both finals? lol
As low as the chance it might happen, we've seen how mediocre PvT player Movie played like three times better than he usually does in finals, so Effort/Kal beating Flash isn't fully impossible.
I especially wonder what Flash fans are going to do to cheer for Flash against JD IF (big IF) he loses to Effort in the OSL finals.
Go Flash, beat the superior version of Effort! (?)
On May 14 2010 01:45 SuperArc wrote: What are we going to call Flash if he loses both finals? lol
As low as the chance it might happen, we've seen how mediocre PvT player Movie played like three times better than he usually does in finals, so Effort/Kal beating Flash isn't fully impossible.
I especially wonder what Flash fans are going to do to cheer for Flash against JD IF (big IF) he loses to Effort in the OSL finals.
Go Flash, beat the superior version of Effort! (?)
We'll just go into denial and say that Effort won by luck/hacks and that Flash now enters ragemode and will roflstomp JD :D
On May 13 2010 21:04 Holgerius wrote: Holy fucking hell, Flash is currently over 2300 in every single MU. The only players to EVER reach above 2300 in ANY MU are Oov and JD (both vZ).
Wtf, you are right. There is no other player which has 2300+ in two MUs, let alone in all three at the same time like Flash has (although JD was really close vP).
Add to this the consecutive dual finals...just insane.
Edit: Heh, it's actually kind of funny going through Elo ranking and sorting players by different criteria (vX and peak vX). On top it's Flash Flash Flash Flash Flash JvZ Flash Flash.
As amazing as Flash is playing right now, if Kal beats effort and doesn't choke in the final - Flash vs Kal has the potential to be the best PvT final since Boxer vs Anytime. Indeed, it has the potential to be the best final since Jaedong vs Fantasy. (Jaedong vs Flash was quite a lame final imo).
On May 14 2010 04:32 Plexa wrote: As amazing as Flash is playing right now, if Kal beats effort and doesn't choke in the final - Flash vs Kal has the potential to be the best PvT final since Boxer vs Anytime. Indeed, it has the potential to be the best final since Jaedong vs Fantasy. (Jaedong vs Flash was quite a lame final imo).
Given Kals record against Flash (1-5) and JD (3-13), I have no hope that he can touch any of them in a Bo5, and believe that he will choke (even if it is just in the finals). But of course he is by far the best protoss right now, so there is hope that he can put up a fight.
On May 14 2010 04:32 Plexa wrote: As amazing as Flash is playing right now, if Kal beats effort and doesn't choke in the final - Flash vs Kal has the potential to be the best PvT final since Boxer vs Anytime. Indeed, it has the potential to be the best final since Jaedong vs Fantasy. (Jaedong vs Flash was quite a lame final imo).
Given Kals record against Flash (1-5) and JD (3-13), I have no hope that he can touch any of them in a Bo5, and believe that he will choke (even if it is just in the finals). But of course he is by far the best protoss right now, so there is hope that he can put up a fight.
Stop looking at records and start looking at games. If we have a 3-0 series where every game is as close as their first encounter I will be a happy man.
On May 14 2010 04:32 Plexa wrote: As amazing as Flash is playing right now, if Kal beats effort and doesn't choke in the final - Flash vs Kal has the potential to be the best PvT final since Boxer vs Anytime. Indeed, it has the potential to be the best final since Jaedong vs Fantasy. (Jaedong vs Flash was quite a lame final imo).
Given Kals record against Flash (1-5) and JD (3-13), I have no hope that he can touch any of them in a Bo5, and believe that he will choke (even if it is just in the finals). But of course he is by far the best protoss right now, so there is hope that he can put up a fight.
Stop looking at records and start looking at games. If we have a 3-0 series where every game is as close as their first encounter I will be a happy man.
I will tell you what I think because of watching games. Kal is a massive choker and will choke again. Actually, his constant choking in important games inspired me to look up their records in the first place. If he proves me wrong, you can call me out on it for eternity, since I like Kal, I would be a happy man regardless.
3-0 with three close games won't make me a happy man actually, but that's just a difference in taste.
I can't wait to see next month's power ranking, right after all the starleague finals. It's going to be absolutely epic =) hope you're preparing your brain juice & writing skills Plexa, you've got quite a PR coming!
ok i dont mean to beat a dead horse but lets look at how the power rank has done so far in may 1. Flash: 12-1 (obviously no issues there) 2. Jaedong: 7-0 (same) 3. Kal: + Show Spoiler +
5-4 (not really #3 play and neither winner was on power rank)
4. Midas: 2-2 (but showed poor play against jaedong) 5. Sea: 0-2 (neither player was on power rank) 6. Baby: 3-1 (loss against guemchi but showed solid play vs. hyun and TvT seems strong) 7. Free: 4-5 (weak 0-3 v. flash, kinda weak 3-1 v. hiya, win against lomo, loss against kal) 8. Great: 3-6 (2-2 v. calm, beat hoejja, lost to stats, lost to jaedong effort and action) 9. MVP: 0-4 (0-3 v. flash and loss to midas) 10. Hiya: 2-5 (beat fbh, lost to fantasy, 1-3 v. free, lost to guemchi)
in other words, 4-10 on power rank went 14-25 so far this month.
that is some poor choices. and it wasn't hard to avoid. a little realism regarding your favorite players. a little perspective on inconsistent, streaky, and new players. a little respect for the players who have shown they can compete at high levels. this is really a pretty weak ranking, and i think most will agree that it looks less, not more, reasonable after the month is halfway through.
Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
On May 14 2010 20:13 o[twist] wrote: ok i dont mean to beat a dead horse but lets look at how the power rank has done so far in may 1. Flash: 12-1 (obviously no issues there) 2. Jaedong: 7-0 (same) 3. Kal: + Show Spoiler +
5-4 (not really #3 play and neither winner was on power rank)
4. Midas: 2-2 (but showed poor play against jaedong) 5. Sea: 0-2 (neither player was on power rank) 6. Baby: 3-1 (loss against guemchi but showed solid play vs. hyun and TvT seems strong) 7. Free: 4-5 (weak 0-3 v. flash, kinda weak 3-1 v. hiya, win against lomo, loss against kal) 8. Great: 3-6 (2-2 v. calm, beat hoejja, lost to stats, lost to jaedong effort and action) 9. MVP: 0-4 (0-3 v. flash and loss to midas) 10. Hiya: 2-5 (beat fbh, lost to fantasy, 1-3 v. free, lost to guemchi)
in other words, 4-10 on power rank went 14-25 so far this month.
that is some poor choices. and it wasn't hard to avoid. a little realism regarding your favorite players. a little perspective on inconsistent, streaky, and new players. a little respect for the players who have shown they can compete at high levels. this is really a pretty weak ranking, and i think most will agree that it looks less, not more, reasonable after the month is halfway through.
This is kind of misleading. Almost every player on this rank was in a league and only four people can advance to the finals (well, 3 with Flash around). The rank was particularly bad except for Sea.
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
Ya, I would've preferred if Flash had played vs Kal in the final. JD is so smart in his preparation, if he can sniff up any hint of what Flash is gonna do vs him then it's gonna be tough for the Ultimate Weapon.
you might be right. anyway, effort and calm definitely should have been in the power rank. sea being as high as he was was definitely a mistake, as was, i think, the presence of great and mvp.
the point is that there are people on the power rank who we don't really expect to beat people who aren't on the power rank. i get that it's an odd situation with a good deal of parity below the top two performers, but i seriously do not think that the power rank last month communicated anything meaningful.
On May 07 2010 09:47 DracoVolantus wrote: PR shouldn't be such a rollcaster imho. It could be avoided by not making so important how far sb is in individual by luck.
so full agree with o[twist].
Effort was on 6 wins streak entering may, and was rookie of 2009 not by accident, why is he not on PR?
(I'm one of few effort-despite-slump-fans)
And I would put Zero and Fantasy #9 and #10 (random order) in every PR, score doesn't matter :D
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
I'd imagine Jaedong's and EffOrt's best practice partners would be fantasy and BaBy. The problem, of course, is that fantasy has a whole different style than Flash does, but he's still the second best terran in a BoX.
The other question is; who does Flash prepare with? He worked with EffOrt for last season's MSL.
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
I'd imagine Jaedong's and EffOrt's best practice partners would be fantasy and BaBy. The problem, of course, is that fantasy has a whole different style than Flash does, but he's still the second best terran in a BoX.
The other question is; who does Flash prepare with? He worked with EffOrt for last season's MSL.
Jaedong is going to prepare for Hiya, he has always practiced with his team for finals. He's not the kind of player who likes giving out replays I think.
Effort has Iris to play against who according to Hydra? is still beasting in practice. And CJ players always have some weird strategies in BoXs. Never underestimate their coaching staff.
But yeah I asked this question a week ago too, who is Flash going to prepare with for Jaedong and Effort? Two completely different play styles.
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
I'd imagine Jaedong's and EffOrt's best practice partners would be fantasy and BaBy. The problem, of course, is that fantasy has a whole different style than Flash does, but he's still the second best terran in a BoX.
The other question is; who does Flash prepare with? He worked with EffOrt for last season's MSL.
Jaedong is going to prepare for Hiya, he has always practiced with his team for finals. He's not the kind of player who likes giving out replays I think.
Effort has Iris to play against who according to Hydra? is still beasting in practice. And CJ players always have some weird strategies in BoXs. Never underestimate their coaching staff.
But yeah I asked this question a week ago too, who is Flash going to prepare with for Jaedong and Effort? Two completely different play styles.
You assume Flash can only practice with team-mates. He's the best player in the world, what zerg (excluding Jaedong and Effort) would refuse practice with him? They want to get better to you know.
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
I'd imagine Jaedong's and EffOrt's best practice partners would be fantasy and BaBy. The problem, of course, is that fantasy has a whole different style than Flash does, but he's still the second best terran in a BoX.
The other question is; who does Flash prepare with? He worked with EffOrt for last season's MSL.
Jaedong is going to prepare for Hiya, he has always practiced with his team for finals. He's not the kind of player who likes giving out replays I think.
Effort has Iris to play against who according to Hydra? is still beasting in practice. And CJ players always have some weird strategies in BoXs. Never underestimate their coaching staff.
But yeah I asked this question a week ago too, who is Flash going to prepare with for Jaedong and Effort? Two completely different play styles.
You assume Flash can only practice with team-mates. He's the best player in the world, what zerg (excluding Jaedong and Effort) would refuse practice with him? They want to get better to you know.
and you assume practicing with other teams is so easy
Until very recently (until today as a matter of fact) Effort was below 50% in 2010. Before the tiebreakers in OSL he had a record of 11-20 (35%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!), losing to a ton of bad players and had a 5 loss streak that included go.go, Shine and Hogil. And then he barely made it out of the tiebreakers (after like 5 rounds and getting a regame when he shoudn't have gotten one) vs Shine and go.go. Only after that did he go on a nice little win streak, but he's been shit for the last couple of months. He did not deserves to be on this PR.
yeah. now that i look again (im making the argument against effort and for effort simultaneously), he didnt really look like a PR contender last month.
nobody is really performing besides a few consistent players (maybe only two) and a changing set of promising noobs
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
I'd imagine Jaedong's and EffOrt's best practice partners would be fantasy and BaBy. The problem, of course, is that fantasy has a whole different style than Flash does, but he's still the second best terran in a BoX.
The other question is; who does Flash prepare with? He worked with EffOrt for last season's MSL.
Jaedong is going to prepare for Hiya, he has always practiced with his team for finals. He's not the kind of player who likes giving out replays I think.
Effort has Iris to play against who according to Hydra? is still beasting in practice. And CJ players always have some weird strategies in BoXs. Never underestimate their coaching staff.
But yeah I asked this question a week ago too, who is Flash going to prepare with for Jaedong and Effort? Two completely different play styles.
You assume Flash can only practice with team-mates. He's the best player in the world, what zerg (excluding Jaedong and Effort) would refuse practice with him? They want to get better to you know.
and you assume practicing with other teams is so easy
It's really easy to sit now and say that ''Effort is kicking ass and is an OSL finalists, why isn't he on the PR?'', but he really, really, really, really wasn't looking like even a contender until pretty much just days ago. He played so badly that even fanboys like SuperArc became anti-fans.
What are you trying to say? EffOrt was slumping, so what? That doesn't mean he can't ZvT when he brings his A-Game. And Jaedong's ZvT since the start of this year hasn't been looking exactly stellar either, if you actually look at the games and not just the winning percentage. It starts with the totally fucked up finals against Flash, which whatever you may think about them can't be taken as an example of Jaedong's "awesome" ZvT skills. It goes on with some pretty bad losses against BaBy, Darkelf & Ruby with some unspectacular wins in-between and finishes off with a very very(...) disappointing performance by Midas(except for the first game in the series).
To make it clear, I'm not saying EffOrt's ZvT is better or even as good as Jaedong's. What I'm saying is just that when they bring their A-Game they're both good at ZvT and they both have different styles.
i like this "different styles" stuff cj has come up with re: jaedong. great lesson in relativism. 5 titles, dominant player for a year plus? "different style" than guy who is like 26% vT this year. superarc says there's JvZ and EvZ because they have "different styles." there's no real evidence effort has an A-Game to bring against terran.
On May 14 2010 21:22 o[twist] wrote: i like this "different styles" stuff cj has come up with re: jaedong. great lesson in relativism. 5 titles, dominant player for a year plus? "different style" than guy who is like 26% vT this year. superarc says there's JvZ and EvZ because they have "different styles." there's no real evidence effort has an A-Game to bring against terran.
Ya I'm not agreeing with SuperArc's EvZ thing either. But why shouldn't EffOrt have an A-Game to bring? He's still ~57% ZvT despite his 26% performance this year, which means there was a time he was damn good at ZvT or in other words, there was a time when he showed us his ZvT A-Game. Of course this doesn't necessarily mean that he will bring his A-Game in the finals, but he does have one somewhere.
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
On May 14 2010 20:13 o[twist] wrote: ok i dont mean to beat a dead horse but lets look at how the power rank has done so far in may 1. Flash: 12-1 (obviously no issues there) 2. Jaedong: 7-0 (same) 3. Kal: + Show Spoiler +
5-4 (not really #3 play and neither winner was on power rank)
4. Midas: 2-2 (but showed poor play against jaedong) 5. Sea: 0-2 (neither player was on power rank) 6. Baby: 3-1 (loss against guemchi but showed solid play vs. hyun and TvT seems strong) 7. Free: 4-5 (weak 0-3 v. flash, kinda weak 3-1 v. hiya, win against lomo, loss against kal) 8. Great: 3-6 (2-2 v. calm, beat hoejja, lost to stats, lost to jaedong effort and action) 9. MVP: 0-4 (0-3 v. flash and loss to midas) 10. Hiya: 2-5 (beat fbh, lost to fantasy, 1-3 v. free, lost to guemchi)
in other words, 4-10 on power rank went 14-25 so far this month.
that is some poor choices. and it wasn't hard to avoid. a little realism regarding your favorite players. a little perspective on inconsistent, streaky, and new players. a little respect for the players who have shown they can compete at high levels. this is really a pretty weak ranking, and i think most will agree that it looks less, not more, reasonable after the month is halfway through.
This is kind of misleading. Almost every player on this rank was in a league and only four people can advance to the finals (well, 3 with Flash around). The rank was particularly bad except for Sea.
Wait, what? Sea was about the least justifiable pick last month, and he's been bad since.
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
Unfortunately this is true. But I hope that Flash will prepare different starts for OSL and MSL. In the end the map pool is different and also Flash hasn't played TvZ for ages so he must have some aces in his sleeve.
But it would be good for him if Jaedong plays lots of ZvTs in proleague especially in the ace games when there is a pressure to win so he has to show everything he has.
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
Unfortunately this is true. But I hope that Flash will prepare different starts for OSL and MSL. In the end the map pool is different and also Flash hasn't played TvZ for ages so he must have some aces in his sleeve.
But it would be good for him if Jaedong plays lots of ZvTs in proleague especially in the ace games when there is a pressure to win so he has to show everything he has.
Oz final three matches are vs CJ, estro, MBC. MBC is the only team with good TvZ terrans. Flash on the other hand has to play vs CJ, estro and Hite. CJ and estro are pretty zerg heavy.
Even Pl games are against Flash. He will certainly be God Young Ho if he manages to win both finals.
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
Unfortunately this is true. But I hope that Flash will prepare different starts for OSL and MSL. In the end the map pool is different and also Flash hasn't played TvZ for ages so he must have some aces in his sleeve.
But it would be good for him if Jaedong plays lots of ZvTs in proleague especially in the ace games when there is a pressure to win so he has to show everything he has.
Oz final three matches are vs CJ, estro, MBC. MBC is the only team with good TvZ terrans. Flash on the other hand has to play vs CJ, estro and Hite. CJ and estro are pretty zerg heavy.
Even Pl games are against Flash. He will certainly be God Young Ho if he manages to win both finals.
Well, he's actually God Young Ho just for getting there two times in a row.
On May 14 2010 20:13 o[twist] wrote: ok i dont mean to beat a dead horse but lets look at how the power rank has done so far in may 1. Flash: 12-1 (obviously no issues there) 2. Jaedong: 7-0 (same) 3. Kal: + Show Spoiler +
5-4 (not really #3 play and neither winner was on power rank)
4. Midas: 2-2 (but showed poor play against jaedong) 5. Sea: 0-2 (neither player was on power rank) 6. Baby: 3-1 (loss against guemchi but showed solid play vs. hyun and TvT seems strong) 7. Free: 4-5 (weak 0-3 v. flash, kinda weak 3-1 v. hiya, win against lomo, loss against kal) 8. Great: 3-6 (2-2 v. calm, beat hoejja, lost to stats, lost to jaedong effort and action) 9. MVP: 0-4 (0-3 v. flash and loss to midas) 10. Hiya: 2-5 (beat fbh, lost to fantasy, 1-3 v. free, lost to guemchi)
in other words, 4-10 on power rank went 14-25 so far this month.
that is some poor choices. and it wasn't hard to avoid. a little realism regarding your favorite players. a little perspective on inconsistent, streaky, and new players. a little respect for the players who have shown they can compete at high levels. this is really a pretty weak ranking, and i think most will agree that it looks less, not more, reasonable after the month is halfway through.
nice one but its still knowing after it happens most of those guys were put in the pr for reaching high levels its only natural for them to meet the highest progamers and as it was pointed out flash and jaedong are at another level of their own. beside who would you have put in the pr instead everyone is doing bad aside the #1/2 the only true surprise was effort vs kal and i wouldnt have put effort instead of kal especially not after that tie breaker!
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
On May 14 2010 20:13 o[twist] wrote: ok i dont mean to beat a dead horse but lets look at how the power rank has done so far in may 1. Flash: 12-1 (obviously no issues there) 2. Jaedong: 7-0 (same) 3. Kal: + Show Spoiler +
5-4 (not really #3 play and neither winner was on power rank)
4. Midas: 2-2 (but showed poor play against jaedong) 5. Sea: 0-2 (neither player was on power rank) 6. Baby: 3-1 (loss against guemchi but showed solid play vs. hyun and TvT seems strong) 7. Free: 4-5 (weak 0-3 v. flash, kinda weak 3-1 v. hiya, win against lomo, loss against kal) 8. Great: 3-6 (2-2 v. calm, beat hoejja, lost to stats, lost to jaedong effort and action) 9. MVP: 0-4 (0-3 v. flash and loss to midas) 10. Hiya: 2-5 (beat fbh, lost to fantasy, 1-3 v. free, lost to guemchi)
in other words, 4-10 on power rank went 14-25 so far this month.
that is some poor choices. and it wasn't hard to avoid. a little realism regarding your favorite players. a little perspective on inconsistent, streaky, and new players. a little respect for the players who have shown they can compete at high levels. this is really a pretty weak ranking, and i think most will agree that it looks less, not more, reasonable after the month is halfway through.
This is kind of misleading. Almost every player on this rank was in a league and only four people can advance to the finals (well, 3 with Flash around). The rank was particularly bad except for Sea.
It's at least a better situation than last MSL finals. 50%+ of Flash's games last individual season were TvZ, JD had all the games in the world to go to school off of for the last finals.
EffOrt just jumped 7 places in the ELO rankings, from #10 to #3. He is now at his ZvP peak.
And EffOrt had a case for the back end of the PR last month (I would've put him over great, MVP, and maybe Sea) but what he really was looking like at the time was a potential PR candidate for the next rank, as he was a favorite against Kal, and had won several in a row at that time. Everything has turned out well for him, and he's a likely top 5 for the next month's rank unless he gets absolutely wrecked by Flash (trust me, won't happen) or fails in proleague (also unlikely).
Potential drama-storms in the next two weeks: - CJ plays KT this week. I'm sure both teams would rather their OSL finalists don't meet, which means they might not be played, or also that they may accidentally meet each other. If they do meet, both players will play ultra-standard, and both will be on cheese watch. At the same time, CJ will possibly try to get HydrA against Flash, and KT will probably try to match forGG against EffOrt.
Expect EffOrt on either Match Point or Fighting Spirit, and Flash on Polaris Rhapsody.
- Calm and Jaedong play next week, a match-up that Jaedong is almost universally presumed to win. This assessment is a vast over simplification. I don't like Calm very much, mostly as a rival to EffOrt, but he's among the elite second tier of zergs, and has beaten Jaedong before, and could easily do it again.
How does the calculus change if Calm plays Flash? (Aside from making MSL executives cry fat salty tears.)
calm is a very smart and wily player, especially in zvz but i don't think he has what it takes to beat jaedong in a bo5. jaedong's multitasking and decision making are unparalleled in this matchup
though jaedong is definitely a favorite vs. calm, you can't just ignore that calm beat him in a bo5 ... when jaedong was in his prime JvZ era. I want jaedong to win, but i'd really only give him maybe a 60% chance to win.
calm won in msl when jaedong was busy with getting ready to 3-0 yarnc in osl granted, it was the same matchup and a similar map pool, but let's be realistic. osl > msl
It seems odd that some jaedongfans are eager to come to the conclusion that being in both leagues drasically affected the outcome of jaedong vs calm, while not being so eager to accept the same concept for flash vs jaedong in last msl or this for that matter.
On May 15 2010 14:20 StylishVODs wrote: It seems odd that some jaedongfans are eager to come to the conclusion that being in both leagues drasically affected the outcome of jaedong vs calm, while not being so eager to accept the same concept for flash vs jaedong in last msl or this for that matter.
Well getting into both leagues obviously isn't hard since Flash has done it twice!
On May 15 2010 08:33 o[twist] wrote: lol "trust me, won't happen" somehow i actually don't trust your judgment as objective regarding effort tree.hugger
I think EffOrt's a baller and all that, but I was more thinking of CJ's preparation with is usually top-notch.
And know that I'm a huge EffOrt fan, but I know the difference between reality and my rose-tinted fan glasses. EffOrt is no slouch, everyone should agree on that, and what with the time for preparation, the nature of the match-up, and the fact that he has been known to posses S-class ZvT, I can't imagine Flash will be able to coast like he did against our good-but-not-great protoss friends, Free and Pure.
flash went 5-1 against calm and jaedong last osl - gonna go ahead and say flash v. effort is likely to look a LOT v. free or v. pure. also, i can't help but lol at the idea that free and pure are "good-but-not-great" next to the mammoth player that is effort
also and more importantly for power-rank purposes, lol sea
On May 15 2010 08:33 o[twist] wrote: lol "trust me, won't happen" somehow i actually don't trust your judgment as objective regarding effort tree.hugger
I think EffOrt's a baller and all that, but I was more thinking of CJ's preparation with is usually top-notch.
And know that I'm a huge EffOrt fan, but I know the difference between reality and my rose-tinted fan glasses. EffOrt is no slouch, everyone should agree on that, and what with the time for preparation, the nature of the match-up, and the fact that he has been known to posses S-class ZvT, I can't imagine Flash will be able to coast like he did against our good-but-not-great protoss friends, Free and Pure.
Effort should put up pretty good fight, like Calm did, but I really don't expect it to be too close. It definitely won't be as painful to watch as Free vs Flash or as boring as Pure vs Flash but I expect Flash to be in control for the whole time.
Even in his prime he didn't do fantastic against a depressed Flash, that carried a whole team and a bit more on his back. Unless Effort got substantially better than before, which could be possible, I'm expecting 3-0 or 3-1 seeing how much Flash has actually improved in macro, micro, game sense and most importantly multitasking.
I like Effort but he's about to get massacred. Effort relies too much on his ability to be all over the map. Take that game vs Fantasy. At one point he's defending his nat (4 dark swarms and a plague), defending his 3rd (dark swarm and a plague) and defending the nat of the 11 base (dark swarm). That shit is amazing and ridiculous, but you can't ride that to overcome Flash. Effort needs to be able to survive Flash's midgame and come out in good shape in order to even have a chance at a management war against Flash and I have a tough time seeing that happening.
Calm vs JD should be interesting, but I suspect that only a Flash vs JD final would mean anything.
It's really early still, but thinks are sort of shaping up to the point where unless wild things happen, the next month's PR will be somewhat predictable.
Next months PR: 1. Flash (duh) 2. Jaedong (most likely unless he utterly flops for the rest of the month) 3. Effort (?) 4-5. Kal Calm will probably fit in the ranking, but I think it will depend a lot on the rest of the month as to where, as high as 4 or as low as not even in the rankings. 5-7. Baby, Midas 6-10. Candidates thus far seem to be: Leta, Hyuk, Iris ????
On watch (at this point, looking at proleague results): s2, Zero, Roro (on a tear this round), Shine (also on a tear), Flying, Action, ???
i'm a huge baby fan so that will affect this but right now i kind of think it should be 1. flash 2. jaedong 3. effort 4. baby 5. calm 6. kal 7. free 8. midas 9. leta 10. hyuk cbnc: iris, roro, flying, action
Agreed. I like Free but he's completely fallen apart recently. Not entirely unexpected I guess. It seems like every time he's on the brink of breaking out, he collapses to mediocrity.
Well, that's overstating it, but the point is that I've been following him since before he was a big name (his PvZ really impressed me the very first time I saw it) and he's made a habit out of never being able to stabilize.
I'd also hesitate before putting Baby so high unless he keeps up for the rest of the month and Kal and Calm don't.
On May 15 2010 16:41 o[twist] wrote: agreed mortality.
i'm a huge baby fan so that will affect this but right now i kind of think it should be 1. flash 2. jaedong 3. effort 4. baby 5. calm 6. kal 7. free 8. midas 9. leta 10. hyuk cbnc: iris, roro, flying, action
I don't think so. The finals will be played this month, and Flash will win them both. The next Power Rank will be Flash from 1-10. + Show Spoiler +
On May 15 2010 14:20 StylishVODs wrote: It seems odd that some jaedongfans are eager to come to the conclusion that being in both leagues drasically affected the outcome of jaedong vs calm, while not being so eager to accept the same concept for flash vs jaedong in last msl or this for that matter.
Jaedong met Calm and Fantasy on consecutive days, while Flash had 6 days between Movie and Jaedong (compared to 7 for Jaedong). I accept that it had some impact that Jaedong had a little more time to practice than Flash, but there is a pretty big difference. Of course, Flash had a similar situation this season and he handled it fine (though he met MVP and Pure instead of the #2/3 Zerg and the #1/2 Terran).
And for this Final he will have a full week to Practice compared to 9 days for Jaedong, but at that point I doubt it has any real significance.
On May 15 2010 14:20 StylishVODs wrote: It seems odd that some jaedongfans are eager to come to the conclusion that being in both leagues drasically affected the outcome of jaedong vs calm, while not being so eager to accept the same concept for flash vs jaedong in last msl or this for that matter.
Jaedong met Calm and Fantasy on consecutive days, while Flash had 6 days between Movie and Jaedong. I accept that it had an impact that Jaedong had more time to practice than Flash, but there is a pretty big difference. Of course, Flash had a similar situation this season and he handled it fine (though he met MVP and Pure instead of the #2/3 Zerg and the #1/2 Terran).
Don't forget Pl finals. JD had to prepare for five games in the finals.
Jaedong had a huge advabtage over Flash for 2 reasons.
1. Flash was playing shitloads of games which is really tiring. If you don;t' think so, read his past interviews in which he states that fans really underestimate the amount of stress and effort it takes to play TV games.
2. More importantly Flash was playing only TvZ whole month. BoX series against Jaedong, Zero, Calm and Kwanro. Add to this 2 games in porleague he playes against hero and Calm. Jaedong had shitloads of material to study Flash while Flash had pretty much no material to study Jaedong.
On May 15 2010 18:35 Lebesgue wrote: Wth you guys are talking about?
Jaedong had a huge advabtage over Flash for 2 reasons.
1. Flash was playing shitloads of games which is really tiring. If you don;t' think so, read his past interviews in which he states that fans really underestimate the amount of stress and effort it takes to play TV games.
2. More importantly Flash was playing only TvZ whole month. BoX series against Jaedong, Zero, Calm and Kwanro. Add to this 2 games in porleague he playes against hero and Calm. Jaedong had shitloads of material to study Flash while Flash had pretty much no material to study Jaedong.
JD had maybe the toughest schedule ever with the back to back games... but I still think it was the free agency that was the most difficult part of it.
-Proleague Grand Finals, playing two matches and THREE ace matches against SKT1, the strongest pro team, with two potential aces for each ace match. (Fantasy's TvZ was unreliable but also unpredictable and deadly, while Bisu's PvZ was of course the best in the world.) -Bo5 against Fantasy for OSL semifinals -Bo5 against Calm for OSL semifinals -Free Agency fight between his parents and his parent-away-from-parents.
Yes, that IS harder than preparing for OSL and MSL finals while heading a team in Proleague Round 2, and had Jaedong swept the field, we wouldn't be having Flash Bonjwa talk today. Jaedong came as close as Flash to winning dual leagues, under harsher circumstances, but missed out on the dual appearance because he met his MSL challenger in the semis rather than the finals.
On May 15 2010 19:34 Severedevil wrote: Yes, that IS harder than preparing for OSL and MSL finals while heading a team in Proleague Round 2, and had Jaedong swept the field, we wouldn't be having Flash Bonjwa talk today. Jaedong came as close as Flash to winning dual leagues, under harsher circumstances, but missed out on the dual appearance because he met his MSL challenger in the semis rather than the finals.
I don't see why you have to compare their workload. The point made was that it's harder preparing for both leagues than for one, and after last MSL finals it did seem like most people still don't understand this.
Jaedong said this himself in a recent interview where he mentioned that he is so relaxed right now because he only have to prepare for one league. And to say that jaedong was as close as flash to winning dual.... Flash has been in dual finals twice, jaedong has never been in dual finals so thats simply wrong however you bend it.
And we have this flash bonjwa talk today because he's 80+% winratio for over a year now and in both finals again. I don't see how that could have changed.
On May 15 2010 19:34 Severedevil wrote: Yes, that IS harder than preparing for OSL and MSL finals while heading a team in Proleague Round 2, and had Jaedong swept the field, we wouldn't be having Flash Bonjwa talk today. Jaedong came as close as Flash to winning dual leagues, under harsher circumstances, but missed out on the dual appearance because he met his MSL challenger in the semis rather than the finals.
No he didn't. Jaedong never made it into dual finals. Are you living in fanboy land?
On May 15 2010 19:34 Severedevil wrote: Yes, that IS harder than preparing for OSL and MSL finals while heading a team in Proleague Round 2, and had Jaedong swept the field, we wouldn't be having Flash Bonjwa talk today. Jaedong came as close as Flash to winning dual leagues, under harsher circumstances, but missed out on the dual appearance because he met his MSL challenger in the semis rather than the finals.
No he didn't. Jaedong never made it into dual finals. Are you living in fanboy land?
he's saying that jaedong met what should have been his strongest opponent in the semis instead of the finals, so it's "equivalent to a finals"
which isn't really true, but that's what i think he's trying to say...
still, back-to-back dual finals is a wtfhacks kind of thing
On May 16 2010 03:18 nodule wrote: Flash's strongest (and probably most confident) matchup right now is TvP. He just doesn't lose games, ever.
His TvZ, even in the prime of the last OSL run, still dropped a game to Calm & Kwanro in the respective bo5's
Yeah, but Flash has stated in every of his interviews that TvZ is his most confident one. But yeah I always thought TvP is his best matchup (except during the time where he just turtled off 2-3 bases and waited for the dragons to mass expand against him)
On May 16 2010 03:18 nodule wrote: Flash's strongest (and probably most confident) matchup right now is TvP. He just doesn't lose games, ever.
His TvZ, even in the prime of the last OSL run, still dropped a game to Calm & Kwanro in the respective bo5's
Yeah, but Flash has stated in every of his interviews that TvZ is his most confident one. But yeah I always thought TvP is his best matchup (except during the time where he just turtled off 2-3 bases and waited for the dragons to mass expand against him)
Probably a really big difference when you practice with Violet and Stats than when you practice with Firefist and Hoejja.
It makes little difference who you're playing against usually, but more who's helping you.
Like July helped STX zergs for awhile, and boxer and iloveoov continued the terran lineage somewhat. But SKT Zergs are bad, same with Hwaseung Protosses.
The only bo5's Flash has lost since he became a "top player" were to:
- JD x3 (MSL, GOM, MSL, though the first MSL was still before Flash was actually considered a top player and JD was heavily favored - that series actually opened peoples' eyes to Flash's skill in a lot of ways).
- ForGG (haha)
Similarly the only bo5's JD has lost since he became a "top player" (after the Rock debacle basically) were to:
- ForGG (haha) - Calm
I don't think it's really fair to count JD's loss to: - the Rock (well maybe you should because it's the Rock...)
Or Flash's losses to: - GGPlay (OSL semis, Flash was 14 years old and had literally just became a licensed pro 3 months earlier, still only lost 2-3, GGPlay ended up winning that OSL) - Stork (3rd place match from that same OSL, still 14 years old, Stork was a top P at the time and rolled him with Carriers 3 straight games ... this created Flash's reputation for being "weak to Carriers" until he annihilated this reputation and Carriers in general with the legendary double Armory build)
It's hilarious to see that most of Flash's statistical failings come from when he was new, and that's only because he was so damn good when he was new that he GOT to Bo5 series.
On May 16 2010 03:18 nodule wrote: Flash's strongest (and probably most confident) matchup right now is TvP. He just doesn't lose games, ever.
His TvZ, even in the prime of the last OSL run, still dropped a game to Calm & Kwanro in the respective bo5's
Yeah, but Flash has stated in every of his interviews that TvZ is his most confident one. But yeah I always thought TvP is his best matchup (except during the time where he just turtled off 2-3 bases and waited for the dragons to mass expand against him)
Probably a really big difference when you practice with Violet and Stats than when you practice with Firefist and Hoejja.
I think that's why Flash believes his TvP is weak. He often mentions that he losses a lot during practice to Stats and Violet. And I can imagine he just sweeps through the KT Zergs. But I also guess that he practices a lot with people outside of his team so I guess he can judge his TvZ quite well.
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
Unfortunately this is true. But I hope that Flash will prepare different starts for OSL and MSL. In the end the map pool is different and also Flash hasn't played TvZ for ages so he must have some aces in his sleeve.
But it would be good for him if Jaedong plays lots of ZvTs in proleague especially in the ace games when there is a pressure to win so he has to show everything he has.
Oz final three matches are vs CJ, estro, MBC. MBC is the only team with good TvZ terrans. Flash on the other hand has to play vs CJ, estro and Hite. CJ and estro are pretty zerg heavy.
Even Pl games are against Flash. He will certainly be God Young Ho if he manages to win both finals.
Well, he's actually God Young Ho just for getting there two times in a row.
I'm sure you would quickly drop this stance if he lost both finals and was 1-3 in 4 finals.
On May 15 2010 06:57 tree.hugger wrote: Everything has turned out well for EffOrt, and he's a likely top 5 for the next month's rank unless he gets absolutely wrecked by Flash (trust me, won't happen) or fails in proleague (also unlikely).
On May 15 2010 08:33 o[twist] wrote: lol "trust me, won't happen" somehow i actually don't trust your judgment as objective regarding effort tree.hugger
On May 15 2010 15:25 tree.hugger wrote: I know that I'm a huge EffOrt fan, but I know the difference between reality and my rose-tinted fan glasses. EffOrt is no slouch, everyone should agree on that, and what with the time for preparation, the nature of the match-up, and the fact that he has been known to posses S-class ZvT, I can't imagine Flash will be able to coast like he did against our good-but-not-great protoss friends, Free and Pure.
On May 15 2010 15:36 o[twist] wrote: flash went 5-1 against calm and jaedong last osl - gonna go ahead and say flash v. effort is likely to look a LOT v. free or v. pure. also, i can't help but lol at the idea that free and pure are "good-but-not-great" next to the mammoth player that is effort
***
On May 16 2010 13:25 o[twist] wrote: hard to deny effort is looking very good
No hard feelings, I'm just euphoric right now, and have made enough really stupid predictions to know that it means nothing. Looking forward to a great finals!
lol yeah yeah. we'll see how the finals actually turn out - hopefully flash doesn't go mech or throw away rines, hopefully effort doesn't drop on mines or throw away ultras - lots of sexy stuff in that game as i said in the thread - early scourge kills and tech switch were the ones i liked best
On May 14 2010 20:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Best case scenario for Jaedong incoming. If Flash wants a golden mouse he's gonna have to pull out all of his stops for Effort, exposing himself greatly for Jaedong. If only there were a second terran that was even mediocre in a Bo5 that Jaedong could play. =(
Unfortunately this is true. But I hope that Flash will prepare different starts for OSL and MSL. In the end the map pool is different and also Flash hasn't played TvZ for ages so he must have some aces in his sleeve.
But it would be good for him if Jaedong plays lots of ZvTs in proleague especially in the ace games when there is a pressure to win so he has to show everything he has.
Oz final three matches are vs CJ, estro, MBC. MBC is the only team with good TvZ terrans. Flash on the other hand has to play vs CJ, estro and Hite. CJ and estro are pretty zerg heavy.
Even Pl games are against Flash. He will certainly be God Young Ho if he manages to win both finals.
Well, he's actually God Young Ho just for getting there two times in a row.
I'm sure you would quickly drop this stance if he lost both finals and was 1-3 in 4 finals.
Absolutely not. Getting to dual finals 2 season in a row is one of the most epic things ever achieved by a progamer, even if he would've lost all of them. Seriously.
in relation to Flash should get a ban. Alright, he lost twice to an excellent player, and excellent preparation and execution. Flash is mortal, but he's also an excellent player, and a deserved #1 right now. CJ pretty much the only team that could've pulled that off.
That said, some excellent play from the junior CJ protoss and the senior CJ zerg.
Wow, i woke up to this! Too bad I can't watch the games live coz they start 05:00 or so... Seems to me like effort did good and flash surviving longer than he should after valk opening vs lurkers. kind of like kwanro, but effort>kwanro
On May 16 2010 03:18 nodule wrote: Flash's strongest (and probably most confident) matchup right now is TvP. He just doesn't lose games, ever.
His TvZ, even in the prime of the last OSL run, still dropped a game to Calm & Kwanro in the respective bo5's
Yeah, but Flash has stated in every of his interviews that TvZ is his most confident one. But yeah I always thought TvP is his best matchup (except during the time where he just turtled off 2-3 bases and waited for the dragons to mass expand against him)
Probably a really big difference when you practice with Violet and Stats than when you practice with Firefist and Hoejja.
I think that's why Flash believes his TvP is weak. He often mentions that he losses a lot during practice to Stats and Violet. And I can imagine he just sweeps through the KT Zergs. But I also guess that he practices a lot with people outside of his team so I guess he can judge his TvZ quite well.
Source ? Imo he never said that during interviews, in fact, he only mentioned his winrate once (The 79-1 thingie)
On May 16 2010 03:18 nodule wrote: Flash's strongest (and probably most confident) matchup right now is TvP. He just doesn't lose games, ever.
His TvZ, even in the prime of the last OSL run, still dropped a game to Calm & Kwanro in the respective bo5's
Yeah, but Flash has stated in every of his interviews that TvZ is his most confident one. But yeah I always thought TvP is his best matchup (except during the time where he just turtled off 2-3 bases and waited for the dragons to mass expand against him)
Probably a really big difference when you practice with Violet and Stats than when you practice with Firefist and Hoejja.
I think that's why Flash believes his TvP is weak. He often mentions that he losses a lot during practice to Stats and Violet. And I can imagine he just sweeps through the KT Zergs. But I also guess that he practices a lot with people outside of his team so I guess he can judge his TvZ quite well.
Source ? Imo he never said that during interviews, in fact, he only mentioned his winrate once (The 79-1 thingie)
Flash - It seems you’ll never lose to protoss. ▲ Personally, I feel that my tvp is my weakest matchup. During practice, losing isn’t infrequent but for some strange reason, during my actual live matches things always seem to work out. I do believe compared to my other matchups tvp is my weakest, but this might just be because my team’s protoss are very strong.
On May 16 2010 19:23 SuperArc wrote: Since we have people who speculate that if Flash wins both finals he's gonna be God Young Ho.
What if both Effort and Jaedong go undefeated this month? (I know there is like a 0.1% chance Flash gets 0-3ed twice, but let a fanboy dream)
What are we going to call them?
I would figure PR#1 for Jaedong, because he has the history of greatness (that another consecutive win would continue) to let him dethrone Flash, even after Flash's wicked dominance, and PR#3 for Effort, who despite playing awesome for one month and awesome one year ago does not have a similar history of dominance/greatness/accomplishments, and therefore should not push past Flash in one month even with a 3-0.
That's speculative, of course... it would be very surprising if Effort and Jaedong went undefeated this month.
Would you guys please stop wildly speculating please? Jesus, Jaedong is not even in the finals yet. And you can bet your ass Flash isn't going to lose 3-0 to EffOrt after their last game. If anything, it will keep him from underestimating EffOrt.
And what is the least interesting/important and the most annoying are the never ending "who's gonna be called what" questions and speculations........ Just call your favorite player whatever the fuck you want.
On May 17 2010 20:27 Silentness wrote: lol it is funny how we all act like Jaedong is already in the MSL finals, but let's be honest... Jaedong will win the semis against Calm.
If Calm advances to the MSL finals... I'll take a temporary ban. (*gulp*) I have faith in Jaedong
On May 17 2010 20:27 Silentness wrote: lol it is funny how we all act like Jaedong is already in the MSL finals, but let's be honest... Jaedong will win the semis against Calm.
If Calm advances to the MSL finals... I'll take a temporary ban. (*gulp*) I have faith in Jaedong
Calm beating Jaedong would be bad for e-sports :\
considering how the bw scene is slowly dying ( match rigging scandal ; sc2 ) ... Calm can go ahead and win
On May 18 2010 14:41 dukethegold wrote: Effort is going back on the PR next month regardless of the outcome of the OSL final.
Save for a 0-3 rape of course.
Pretty excited for the OSL finals after CJ v.s. KT.
I feel like effort deserves PR regardless of if he gets raped or not because of his sheer good performance before OSL finals (plus making the finals in the first place??)
Effort should of course get a high place no matter what happens in the final. He's gone on a sick win streak, reached the OSL final and beat Flash in PL in a convincing way. He's back. Ya sure, he was horrible in the beginning of this season, but after the tiebreakers he's been kicking ass, and it's not like he's some random noob like MVP, he has shown in the past what a monster he can be. And I mean, I'm pretty confident Flash would 3-0 pretty much anyone (except for JD of course). IMO losses against Flash should not be taken into account all that much.
After watching both of Flash's losses yesterday I'm not that worried about Flash. It seems like he lost two games where he got really abysmal openings.
I don't want to take away anything from the winners, they played good. But as a terran myself I know how hard it is to win games after such openings. 1rax FE completely delayed and valk opening + first dropship sniped (by scourge ment for valk) is just really, really bad openings.
I'm sure Flash realized this even though he looked really dissapointed.
On May 18 2010 18:27 StylishVODs wrote: After watching both of Flash's losses yesterday I'm not that worried about Flash. It seems like he lost two games where he got really abysmal openings.
I don't want to take away anything from the winners, they played good. But as a terran myself I know how hard it is to win games after such openings. 1rax FE completely delayed and valk opening + first dropship sniped (by scourge ment for valk) is just really, really bad openings.
I'm sure Flash realized this even though he looked really dissapointed.
well both times CJ mindgames 2 - Flash 0 and in the finals against Movie Flash was behind in BOs all the time too.
So if CJ manage to achieve the same feat in the finals again this will be a very hard fought golden mouse. No 3-0 rape at all.
I am not saying Effort will beat Flash, just that Flash will surely have to spend his best builds against Effort which is going to leave him wide open for Calm/JD.
Well I'm not sure you can pull mindgames in a bo1...
Both effort and snow played very well indeed, it's going to be really hard to win both leagues. But after reading the live report threads and the "how to beat flash" thread without having seen the games I didn't get a clear view of what was really going on. Now that I've watched the games I'm not at all surprised Flash lost those games.
It was like the Hyun game. Opened up very well with an advantage, and played incredibly well to stop Flash from wresting it away from them with his nearly impeccable general skill. It's what separates Effort from, say, Kwanro, who had the exact same advantage one time and blew it away.
On May 18 2010 18:27 StylishVODs wrote: After watching both of Flash's losses yesterday I'm not that worried about Flash. It seems like he lost two games where he got really abysmal openings.
I don't want to take away anything from the winners, they played good. But as a terran myself I know how hard it is to win games after such openings. 1rax FE completely delayed and valk opening + first dropship sniped (by scourge ment for valk) is just really, really bad openings.
I'm sure Flash realized this even though he looked really dissapointed.
well both times CJ mindgames 2 - Flash 0 and in the finals against Movie Flash was behind in BOs all the time too.
So if CJ manage to achieve the same feat in the finals again this will be a very hard fought golden mouse. No 3-0 rape at all.
I am not saying Effort will beat Flash, just that Flash will surely have to spend his best builds against Effort which is going to leave him wide open for Calm/JD.
I dunno about that.
Flash has lately shown a scary ability to mind rape opponents in a Bo5. He's always been able to do this somewhat but his last Bo5's have shown just how much better he's gotten at it.
In that department Flash is second only to Jaedong...assuming his mind games aren't a "3 time fluke"
On May 18 2010 22:57 TwoToneTerran wrote: It was like the Hyun game. Opened up very well with an advantage, and played incredibly well to stop Flash from wresting it away from them with his nearly impeccable general skill. It's what separates Effort from, say, Kwanro, who had the exact same advantage one time and blew it away.
or kal if u disregard that its pvt instead of zvt not diminishing kal's other skills just that his pvt isnt enough to beat flash even with a massive advantage
On May 18 2010 21:24 StylishVODs wrote: Well I'm not sure you can pull mindgames in a bo1...
Both effort and snow played very well indeed, it's going to be really hard to win both leagues. But after reading the live report threads and the "how to beat flash" thread without having seen the games I didn't get a clear view of what was really going on. Now that I've watched the games I'm not at all surprised Flash lost those games.
I agree, they weren't really mind games. More like, "we know Flash likes to play this way on this map so let's hope that happens and prepare for it".
I wouldn't bet heavily on Flash going 1 Rax FE on Fighting in an OSL/MSL game, but for an ace match in PL (a game that isn't even guaranteed to occur and could be against an opponent of any race)? Seems like a good bet for his most likely build.
I fully expect Flash to come out guns blazing in the finals with some different builds, kind of like how he dominated the mind games against MVP and free. There'll be at least one cheese, with the most likely one being on Great Barrier Reef which is an OSL only map as well as a weird map in general.
When the dropship left Classic's base I was like "LOL it would be totally like 815 to lose from this position just because he's so bad. Oh well, KT is up 2-1 woot!"
*single dropship kills 815's 12 o clock base" ....
"Ok LOL 815 at least you still have a huge ass army and are teching to hive" *camera shows 815 still on lair*
On May 19 2010 18:18 Vasoline73 wrote: 815's game today was so horrible.
When the dropship left Classic's base I was like "LOL it would be totally like 815 to lose from this position just because he's so bad. Oh well, KT is up 2-1 woot!"
*single dropship kills 815's 12 o clock base" ....
"Ok LOL 815 at least you still have a huge ass army and are teching to hive" *camera shows 815 still on lair*
FMLLLLLLLLL.
815 is Savior's clone.
Savior stayed on lair tech a whole game against a Bio terran player too during the qualifications for individual league. He went some type of hydra/ling build. (forgot if it was MSL or OSL) SAVIOR GOT ROLLED that game.
On May 19 2010 18:18 Vasoline73 wrote: 815's game today was so horrible.
When the dropship left Classic's base I was like "LOL it would be totally like 815 to lose from this position just because he's so bad. Oh well, KT is up 2-1 woot!"
*single dropship kills 815's 12 o clock base" ....
"Ok LOL 815 at least you still have a huge ass army and are teching to hive" *camera shows 815 still on lair*
On May 19 2010 18:18 Vasoline73 wrote: 815's game today was so horrible.
When the dropship left Classic's base I was like "LOL it would be totally like 815 to lose from this position just because he's so bad. Oh well, KT is up 2-1 woot!"
*single dropship kills 815's 12 o clock base" ....
"Ok LOL 815 at least you still have a huge ass army and are teching to hive" *camera shows 815 still on lair*
FMLLLLLLLLL.
815 is Savior's clone.
Savior stayed on lair tech a whole game against a Bio terran player too during the qualifications for individual league. He went some type of hydra/ling build. (forgot if it was MSL or OSL) SAVIOR GOT ROLLED that game.
Uhm, are you basing all of Savior's style on one game you watched? You do realize that Savior was well known for his Hive tech play don't you?
i think if flash beats effort and loses to jaedong you gotta keep him at #1, unless it's close with effort and a rape with jaedong. no real comparison two finals vs one final although jaedong looks like he is really, legitimately back.
And there I thought Jaedong reached his peak in the last MSL finals...
Imo a simple 1-10 ranking just doesn't do justice to Flash and Jaedong. And unless Effort really really puts up a incredibly huge fight leave #3 open again.
On May 19 2010 18:18 Vasoline73 wrote: 815's game today was so horrible.
When the dropship left Classic's base I was like "LOL it would be totally like 815 to lose from this position just because he's so bad. Oh well, KT is up 2-1 woot!"
*single dropship kills 815's 12 o clock base" ....
"Ok LOL 815 at least you still have a huge ass army and are teching to hive" *camera shows 815 still on lair*
FMLLLLLLLLL.
815 is Savior's clone.
Savior stayed on lair tech a whole game against a Bio terran player too during the qualifications for individual league. He went some type of hydra/ling build. (forgot if it was MSL or OSL) SAVIOR GOT ROLLED that game.
Uhm, are you basing all of Savior's style on one game you watched? You do realize that Savior was well known for his Hive tech play don't you?
nah I'm basing off the fact that I think Savior rigged that game as well. The way 815 played it looks like he always "sandbags", but that's just him sucking
We're so lucky to get Flash vs JD once again, it will hopefully be really epic. They're truly the best players in the history of the game, and they're really different as players too. If MBC fucks this up again I'll never forgive them. It's impossible to say who will win, especially now with JD back in super form. And to be honest, I don't even care too much about who wins as long as there is no Power Outage or lots of 4 Pool/BBS stuff. And no 3-0.
Honestly I'm a big time Flash fan, but I can't even be biased... I think Jaedong is going to beat Flash. Jaedong won the last time, and he looks stronger than ever this MSL finals. When I saw Jaedong rip Midas apart... I knew that Flash is in trouble.
Hopefully Flash gives me more confidence in him against Effort during the OSL... cause right now I think Jaedong > Flash.
On May 20 2010 19:55 Holgerius wrote: Gold+Silver would beat Gold, just like last time.
We're so lucky to get Flash vs JD once again, it will hopefully be really epic. They're truly the best players in the history of the game, and they're really different as players too. If MBC fucks this up again I'll never forgive them. It's impossible to say who will win, especially now with JD back in super form. And to be honest, I don't even care too much about who wins as long as there is no Power Outage or lots of 4 Pool/BBS stuff. And no 3-0.
Except PR is less about results and is more about who looks like the better player within the context of the month.
If JD beats Flash in a bo5, his ZvT>Flash's TvZ, JD's ZvZ also looks to be in godlike form with this semis, and his ZvP would eat any protoss alive if they ever manage to face him instead of dodging him for the last 3 months. JD's form is simply really really strong now and I hope he can take down Flash and prove he is the GOAT.
Are we already forgetting how absolutely fucking absurdly sick Flash is, and has been for quite a while? I don't know if you've noticed, but Flash has had ALL his MU's over 2300 ELO this month (don't know where they are now since his 2 losses), broke the Kespa point record and has reached consecutive dual finals by completely roflstomping (seriously, it was fucking brutal) his opponents 3-0 in both the semi's, going 13-3 thus far this month.
Flash has also kept up this extreme dominance since October last year, whereas JD has recently been through a mini slump (and pretty much during this entire period he's been inferior to Flash) and lagged behind Flash a lot, while ''only'' reaching 1 final per season. One month ago no one would've considered calling JD bonjwa whereas Flash was being called God Young Ho, better than all the previous bonjwas.
For every Bo5 JD has to prepare for, Flash has two. JD gets the benefit of getting to analyze a Flash TvZ Bo5 (vs a really strong opponent as well) one week before they clash. JD has pretty much a 50% chance of taking Flash down, but he does not neccesarily deserve the #1 spot if he does it. Gold+Silver should > Gold once more.
On May 20 2010 19:55 Holgerius wrote: Gold+Silver would beat Gold, just like last time.
We're so lucky to get Flash vs JD once again, it will hopefully be really epic. They're truly the best players in the history of the game, and they're really different as players too. If MBC fucks this up again I'll never forgive them. It's impossible to say who will win, especially now with JD back in super form. And to be honest, I don't even care too much about who wins as long as there is no Power Outage or lots of 4 Pool/BBS stuff. And no 3-0.
Except PR is less about results and is more about who looks like the better player within the context of the month.
I'm glad we agree on this. The very important context of the month is that Flash is in both leagues while JD is only in one. Last time JD was deep in both leagues he got raped in PL finals going 0:3, lost to Calm 1:3 in MSL and beated fantasy in OSL. He was still considered the best player back then because that's just what a very hard workload does to you.
I'm not going foolishly speculated what if and what if not, but saying that JD>Flash based only on the result of MSL final is very shortsighted.
On May 20 2010 20:42 Holgerius wrote: Are we already forgetting how absolutely fucking absurdly sick Flash is, and has been for quite a while? I don't know if you've noticed, but Flash has had ALL his MU's over 2300 ELO this month (don't know where they are now since his 2 losses), broke the Kespa point record and has reached consecutive dual finals by completely roflstomping (seriously, it was fucking brutal) his opponents 3-0 in both the semi's, going 13-3 thus far this month.
Flash has also kept up this extreme dominance since October last year, whereas JD has recently been through a mini slump (and pretty much during this entire period he's been inferior to Flash) and lagged behind Flash a lot, while ''only'' reaching 1 final per season. One month ago no one would've considered calling JD bonjwa whereas Flash was being called God Young Ho, better than all the previous bonjwas.
For every Bo5 JD has to prepare for, Flash has two. JD gets the benefit of getting to analyze a Flash TvZ Bo5 (vs a really strong opponent as well) one week before they clash. JD has pretty much a 50% chance of taking Flash down, but he does not neccesarily deserve the #1 spot if he does it. Gold+Silver should > Gold once more.
I agree. I don't think Flash will lose, but seriously. If he loses one Bo5 after all his accomplishmentsthis month and he gets dropped for it, it really sucks.
If he loses, I would simply write the same as was written for savior when he lost (0-3) to Bisu.
"I know the 0-3 loss to Bisu looks bad—-and it was—-but if anyone can overcome the OGN Curse, it’s Savior. Given all that he’s achieved in recent memory, I’d be doing him and the PR an incredible disservice if I put him at anywhere but #1."
Flash is in both finals, for the second time in a row. Sometimes I don't understand how people think.
When Savior (back when he was, you know, honest) took down Nada, no one could deny him. There was no doubt, and even his greatest detractors had to concede that there was just no touching him. Ironically that was his last invincible moment, but at the time it looked like he just might never lose again.
Flash stumbled last season but it made him stronger. I think he almost even felt "what? I made both finals after underachieving for nearly two years?". This time he's ready, and Jaedong has kindly done his part and returned to the finals as well. This time Flash is going to win both leagues, and there'll be no debate. Or so I hope!
gonna have to agree with that too. flash has simply been insane and has continued this month to break all sorts of records, and just like a week or two ago people were saying that calling him bonjwa was not enough. i really don't think, unless the guy truly collapses, that we can take #1 away.
On May 20 2010 21:43 arbiter_md wrote: The only way Flash can beat JD in finals, is through mind games. He needs 3 openings with good build order advantages.
What? Last finals JD beat flash becuase he had the better builds. If they have equal good openings it will be really great.
Korean commentators said this in a recent interview: - You need a build order advantage against Flash. There is no real way of beating Flash without it. Jaedong has shown this recently, keeping up with Terran's transitions and transitioning himself and overwhelming the Terran with Army.
On May 20 2010 21:43 arbiter_md wrote: The only way Flash can beat JD in finals, is through mind games. He needs 3 openings with good build order advantages.
What? Last finals JD beat flash becuase he had the better builds. If they have equal good openings it will be really great.
Korean commentators said this in a recent interview: - You need a build order advantage against Flash. There is no real way of beating Flash without it. Jaedong has shown this recently, keeping up with Terran's transitions and transitioning himself and overwhelming the Terran with Army.
I don't understand how anyone could think Jaedong beating Flash in a Bo5 while Flash picks up a gold in the OSL AND simultaneously dominates proleague means Flash should drop below him. One Bo5 doesn't prove who is the better player, especially not when the preparation time is disproportionate, Jaedong has a much easier schedule than Flash does.
When you're deciding these things you need to look at all aspects of the player, how they won the games they did, how they did in all leagues, and how they have been doing since the beginning of the month and even a bit before.
Unless Flash loses both finals, I really don't see how you could justify him dropping to #2.
Alright SuperArc, explain to me in comprehensive detail, using your relevant knowledge of the game, on why a Zerg who goes 12hatch isn't equal with a terran who goes 1rax FE?
Note I am not saying you are wrong, just critical of your offhanded dismissal of his, admittedly lacking in detail point.
Jaedong is at his peak and one would say age-wise just about getting to the other side. Flash is just beginning to peak. We'll know if we are transitioning from the Dong era to the Flash era if Flash wins this. My money is on JD.
On May 20 2010 23:50 WWJDD wrote: Jaedong is at his peak and one would say age-wise just about getting to the other side. Flash is just beginning to peak. We'll know if we are transitioning from the Dong era to the Flash era if Flash wins this. My money is on JD.
Haha. Of course it is. Just look at your fucking account name...
Sorry, just had to do this. If you want to be taken seriously, I'd really recommend to change your name//create a new account. You see, in this forum even a team logo in your signature is enough to be labeled "rabid fanboy".
On May 20 2010 21:57 StylishVODs wrote: yes there are, go 1rax FE vs 12hatch -> pool and you have equal openings.
rofl, zerg is way behind when he goes 12hatch vs rax fe, its just zergs dont have any other choice to open the game
lol calling rax fe vs 12hatch even haha
You are wrong. I've played alot of TvZ. I play on A- level vs both iccup and the best zergs of sweden on a regular basis.
These are the two most standard openings of the matchup. If you ever watch a game where these openings occur and you say that terran has the opening advantage you know very little about starcraft.
You can claim that terran has advantage over zerg by using statistics such as tvz 52% in shinhan proleague 2009-2010. But thats very vague.
Edit: The fact that you say "way behind" is enough for me to know that you know very little of what you're talking about.
On May 20 2010 19:42 SuperArc wrote: Lee Jae Dong, tonight Calm's micro was on par with JD's, but JD's decision making and builds completely raped the Brain zerg...
Flash and Jaedong - the most perfect players ever to play SC:BW. This final is the greatest thing that could have happened to a SC fan.
I disagree slightly after re-watching the games. Jaedong had superior muta micro in the first game; Calm had superior muta micro in the third set. Let's call it even.
But imho, Jaedong's ling versus ling micro was a level above Calm's in all four games.
On May 20 2010 22:08 NurseArial wrote: I don't understand how anyone could think Jaedong beating Flash in a Bo5 while Flash picks up a gold in the OSL AND simultaneously dominates proleague means Flash should drop below him. One Bo5 doesn't prove who is the better player, especially not when the preparation time is disproportionate, Jaedong has a much easier schedule than Flash does.
One bo5 doesn't prove anything, but as of yet JD is 3-0 in Bo5's against Flash. If he makes it 4-0 people will wonder. Flash is more consistent. His fundamentals are stronger than Jaedong's. But fundamentals alone do not the better player make.
I lean towards Flash in this argument, but I understand the opposing viewpoint and don't entirely disagree with it. The past bonjwas have all had rivalries, but they were all able to overcome that wall, whether it was always beating Yellow when it mattered most, or ultimately annihilating July in the OSL finals, the wall has always been broken. Flash needs to break that wall. Otherwise there will always be doubters.
It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
It's kind of sad as things like GGplay, Stork, and the earlier series against Jaedong will forever weigh on his statistics despite being 15. The drawbacks of being really good at a young age, really.
Basically, if EffOrt beats Flash, all bets are off. The #1, #2, and #3 spots will come down to who looked more unbeatable, between three unbeatable players.
Aside from Kal getting wrecked by the alien in the OSL semis, he's actually had quite a solid month. He's still the best protoss, and he'll end up at either #4 or #5.
BaBy will tread water and retain a mid-level spot on the rankings.
RorO has had an excellent month, he'll take one of the last three spots.
Snow is making a compelling case for his first-ever inclusion.
The chins? Stats and Classic are playing (and winning) regularly.
Gah, it's so hard to remember how people did this last week with TLPD down.
On May 21 2010 01:33 tree.hugger wrote: Basically, if EffOrt beats Flash, all bets are off. The #1, #2, and #3 spots will come down to who looked more unbeatable, between three unbeatable players.
Aside from Kal getting wrecked by the alien in the OSL semis, he's actually had quite a solid month. He's still the best protoss, and he'll end up at either #4 or #5.
BaBy will tread water and retain a mid-level spot on the rankings.
RorO has had an excellent month, he'll take one of the last three spots.
Snow is making a compelling case for his first-ever inclusion.
The chins? Stats and Classic are playing (and winning) regularly.
Gah, it's so hard to remember how people did this last week with TLPD down.
atleast baby, free, great, mvp and hiya will most likely be gone. Snow will get a CBNC, cus plexa dont like rushed performances for new players (aka guemchi or baby first time around)
On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
It's kind of sad as things like GGplay, Stork, and the earlier series against Jaedong will forever weigh on his statistics despite being 15. The drawbacks of being really good at a young age, really.
Jaedong is also a completely different player than he was back in 2007 when he couldn't ZvP for shit and lost to Rock of all people. Jaedong had mechanics out the ying yang, but he hadn't yet developed the strategic sense and the timing sense that he's known for today.
Face it: Jaedong has now made 4 Starleague finals in a row (Batoo OSL, Bacchus OSL, NATE MSL and the current Hana Daetoo MSL) and he won 3 of those, including over Flash. And yes, the power outage played a huge role. Flash was going to lose game 3, 90% for certain, but his mindset going into game 4 was ruined and what could have been an epic series turned into a piece of shit event. But nevertheless, it would be nothing short of stupid to deny that Jaedong is a worthy rival and that he's proved again and again and again that he's every bit Flash's equal when they face each other head to head.
It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments.
And by the way, this age argument is meh at best. I won't deny that maturity helps, but fuck, NaDa was 15 when he won his first professional tournament, 16 when he won his first MSL and had just turned 17 when he gold grand slammed, winning OSL, MSL and GhemTV SL all in the same season.
Don't insult great players like GGplay and Stork by saying their wins were meaningless because Flash was "too young" for it to count.
God. I can't believe a Savior fan like me had to advocate Jaedong (not that I dislike Jaedong, but his fans can get pretty fucking retarded at times).
guess what, flash cheesed jaedong game 4 and completely failed. thats why he lost, and jaedong will prove he's the better player by destroying him again.
On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
It's kind of sad as things like GGplay, Stork, and the earlier series against Jaedong will forever weigh on his statistics despite being 15. The drawbacks of being really good at a young age, really.
Jaedong is also a completely different player than he was back in 2007 when he couldn't ZvP for shit and lost to Rock of all people. Jaedong had mechanics out the ying yang, but he hadn't yet developed the strategic sense and the timing sense that he's known for today.
Don't insult great players like GGplay and Stork by saying their wins were meaningless because Flash was "too young" for it to count. .
great argument. both Stork AND GGPlay were playing top tier starcraft at that time GGplay being the pinnacle of macro - zerg and Stork being the PvT god
After finally being able to watch Flash vs Action I must say I'm abit worried for Flash's tvz condition :/ His early gamesense was really off that game and his early macro was abit off too. It's not like him. That + losing two games the PL match before makes me wonder.
I hope he brings his A-game to the finals though coz when he's on, no one can touch him!
On May 21 2010 04:33 Holgerius wrote: I'm personally very worried about who he's gonna use as practise partner after seeing 815's ZvT...
Hey, 815 could be good in practice for all we know! + Show Spoiler +
Not really.
But seriously, I'm sure Flash gets lots of offers for practice partners. After all, what zerg who wants to improve wouldn't want to play the best Terran?
On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
Do you seriously think that is even remotely comparable?
On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
It's kind of sad as things like GGplay, Stork, and the earlier series against Jaedong will forever weigh on his statistics despite being 15. The drawbacks of being really good at a young age, really.
Jaedong is also a completely different player than he was back in 2007 when he couldn't ZvP for shit and lost to Rock of all people. Jaedong had mechanics out the ying yang, but he hadn't yet developed the strategic sense and the timing sense that he's known for today.
Face it: Jaedong has now made 4 Starleague finals in a row (Batoo OSL, Bacchus OSL, NATE MSL and the current Hana Daetoo MSL) and he won 3 of those, including over Flash. And yes, the power outage played a huge role. Flash was going to lose game 3, 90% for certain, but his mindset going into game 4 was ruined and what could have been an epic series turned into a piece of shit event. But nevertheless, it would be nothing short of stupid to deny that Jaedong is a worthy rival and that he's proved again and again and again that he's every bit Flash's equal when they face each other head to head.
It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments.
And by the way, this age argument is meh at best. I won't deny that maturity helps, but fuck, NaDa was 15 when he won his first professional tournament, 16 when he won his first MSL and had just turned 17 when he gold grand slammed, winning OSL, MSL and GhemTV SL all in the same season.
Don't insult great players like GGplay and Stork by saying their wins were meaningless because Flash was "too young" for it to count.
God. I can't believe a Savior fan like me had to advocate Jaedong (not that I dislike Jaedong, but his fans can get pretty fucking retarded at times).
Actually Nada was 17 when he won his first Starleague, and if you don't think ages 17 and 15 is a HUGE difference then I don't know what to tell you. Just look at how many 15/16 year olds have even made MSL/OSl in the past 2 years.
When Flash lost to GGPlay and Stork in bo5's he had JUST turned 15 (he turned 15, played GGPlay the next 2 weeks, then played Stork the week after that). At the start of that OSL he was 14. There's a good chance nobody will ever go that deep in a Starleague at age 14 again, just like it's almost a certainty that no one will ever break Flash's age record for winning a league.
Anyway, I think it's ridiculous that people use games/records from two years ago when comparing players. One year is a huge amount of time in pro SC. Saying JD is 3-0 against Flash in bo5's is highly misleading, given that one of the bo5's happened 27 months ago and the other happened 22 months ago.
I'm not trying to diminish JD's bo5 abilities - he's unquestionably the best ever at bo5's. He's already arguably the greatest player of all time (I'd personally put him over any of the bonjwas, even Nada, at this point but that's a different argument altogether), and will likely cement that title within the next year (unless Flash's rampage continues unchecked, but Flash has a long way to go).
Fact of the matter is, both Jaedong and Flash (especially Flash) are different players now than they were for their first two bo5 encounters. It makes more sense to say JD is 1-0 against Flash in relevant bo5's and Flash is 1-0 against JD in relevant bo3's. Yes the cutoff for "relevant" is somewhat arbitrary, but sometimes you gotta use some common sense.
On May 21 2010 03:01 Mortality wrote: It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments.
No, it's like Boxer and Yellow, except that Jaedong is the Boxer of this rivalry.
and yellow made it to both finals in the leagues all the time wheres boxer only managed one. I don't think this rivalry is very much comparable to any previous rivalry.
On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
Do you seriously think that is even remotely comparable?
It's an extension of the logic that results from a long time ago (a "long time" being some arbitrary number but I think most of us can agree that 2 years is a long time in SC) can be interesting but not really that relevant. A lot of the stats people throw out there are weighted by results from a long time ago, and it's kind of stupid to give equal weight to stuff that happened a long time ago and stuff that happened in the past year or so.
On May 21 2010 03:01 Mortality wrote: It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments.
No, it's like Boxer and Yellow, except that Jaedong is the Boxer of this rivalry.
and yellow made it to both finals in the leagues all the time wheres boxer only managed one. I don't think this rivalry is very much comparable to any previous rivalry.
And where Boxer has 3 more starleague golds than yellow.
On May 21 2010 03:01 Mortality wrote: It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments.
No, it's like Boxer and Yellow, except that Jaedong is the Boxer of this rivalry.
and yellow made it to both finals in the leagues all the time wheres boxer only managed one. I don't think this rivalry is very much comparable to any previous rivalry.
And where Boxer has 3 more starleague golds than yellow.
yeah i don't see where you're going with this... read darktreb's post, it makes more sense than this useless analogy.
Flash v. JD evaluation will depend hugely on the games and the closeness of the series, not just the eventual winner. If Flash 3-0 Effort and loses 3-2 to JD in close games, it would be hard to use that to justify JD > Flash. But a 3-0 loss would be another story entirely.
Let's just see what happens and argue about it afterward.
not to change the subject but whoever said baby should be removed from the power rank is pretty silly; he's still one of the top proleague players, pretty much fourth there, and has played solidly in every matchup this month, winning all of his games since may first. he should definitely remain on the power rank.
i also think, tree.hugger, that there is no way effort gets to #1 on the current power rank. he simply hasn't been playing well for very long, which is why he's not on it right now. against flash and jaedong, the two best players of all time playing basically at their peak performance, there is no way based on results alone (i.e. unless the demonstrated level of play is simply of a different kind) that effort can be above both of them.
On May 21 2010 01:25 TwoToneTerran wrote: It's kind of silly to compare Jaedong's record to current Flash. Flash is obviously a completely different player from when JAedong was thrashing him as a 15 year old. It's like how Casy has a strong record against Jaedong.
It's kind of sad as things like GGplay, Stork, and the earlier series against Jaedong will forever weigh on his statistics despite being 15. The drawbacks of being really good at a young age, really.
Jaedong is also a completely different player than he was back in 2007 when he couldn't ZvP for shit and lost to Rock of all people. Jaedong had mechanics out the ying yang, but he hadn't yet developed the strategic sense and the timing sense that he's known for today.
Face it: Jaedong has now made 4 Starleague finals in a row (Batoo OSL, Bacchus OSL, NATE MSL and the current Hana Daetoo MSL) and he won 3 of those, including over Flash. And yes, the power outage played a huge role. Flash was going to lose game 3, 90% for certain, but his mindset going into game 4 was ruined and what could have been an epic series turned into a piece of shit event. But nevertheless, it would be nothing short of stupid to deny that Jaedong is a worthy rival and that he's proved again and again and again that he's every bit Flash's equal when they face each other head to head.
It's like Boxer and Yellow, except this time Yellow is the one with the longer list of accomplishments.
And by the way, this age argument is meh at best. I won't deny that maturity helps, but fuck, NaDa was 15 when he won his first professional tournament, 16 when he won his first MSL and had just turned 17 when he gold grand slammed, winning OSL, MSL and GhemTV SL all in the same season.
Don't insult great players like GGplay and Stork by saying their wins were meaningless because Flash was "too young" for it to count.
God. I can't believe a Savior fan like me had to advocate Jaedong (not that I dislike Jaedong, but his fans can get pretty fucking retarded at times).
Holy shit dude I'm not insulting GGplay or Stork, I'm pointing out how Flash was far from being a developed player when he suffered a lot of career losses -- the same applies to Jaedong and stuff like his losses to Rock and Casy (Hey that's exactly what I freaking said). Flash is a different player than he was in the past, so comparing losses from 2 years ago to now is completely irrelevant. The same goes for Jaedong.
PS: Flash has also made four finals in a row. It only took him 2 seasons, though.
Hmm, I just wrote a post in the MSL interview thread, which would probably be better suited for PR thread instead, so I will leave it here as well (without the rather emotional opening).
Lets take a look at some facts, about Flash/JD relation:
Fact 1: Flash and JD are 4:3 in recent history (by recent I mean this and last season OSL/MSL + adequate SPL period, because if you wanna include previous MSL, you sure as hell cannot dodge last OSL). Yeah, that's right, Flash has more wins over JD than he has loses. Maybe somebody wants to pretend they only played in MSL and ingore the rest, but it doesn't work that way. JD got his ass whooped when they met in OSL and he lost again right after the MSL finals in ace match in winners league.
Fact 2: Flash has recenty broken almost every imaginable record. Highest Kespa rank ever, highest Elo ever BY FAR, he is the first progamer ever who has two MUs over 2300. Heck, he has EVERY MU over 2300. He has TvP higher than Jaedong ZvP! (You could argue that JD didn't play any protoss recently...well, maybe if he didn't get kicked out of OSL so soon, he could, like Flash or Effort did).
Fact 3: Flash is the first player ever who managed to reach double consecutive finals. Lets stop for a moment and think about it. Never ever in the whole history of BW there was a player who achieved that. Not Boxer, not iloveoov, not Nada, not Savior and definitely not Jaedong.
Fact 4: Flash is the best player in proleague. Yeah you are reading it right, not only he got to double consecutive finals, he at the same time scored most wins in PL. He even won the Winners league playoff for KT, something Jaedong failed to do when he had the chance last year (although he was really close).
And you are going to throw everything out of the window and say JD>Flash because of two BO5? Two BO5 which could together be played under 8 hours? Two BO5 from which one is already one of the most controversial and fucked up finals ever? Really? I mean...really?
1. Flash - for being Flash 2. Jaedong - almost as good as Flash in recent games, small gap 3. EffOrt - 5-2 in proleague, OSL rampage after tiebreakers 4. Kal - semifinalist and STX is owning in proleague right now 5. Calm - see above 6. BaBy - Ro16 in MSL, Ro8 in OSL, and ace of a good WeMade team 7. free - semifinals but weak in proleague ace matches 8. Pure - WeMade isn't using him much, but still got to semifinals 9. Snow - beat Flash but inexperienced, might be a fluke 10. Midas - didn't play much but didn't get much worse from last PR
On May 21 2010 16:05 InFdude wrote: Flash fans are such cowards . If you are so sure in your "God" why do you keep damage controling the scenario of JD>Flash in the MSL. If you really think he's that good just chill and lets see what happens.
no need to be so offensive? I'm not sure Flash will win. I hope he will but Jaedong is really strong and has one match to think about. I think the chances are pretty equal right now after watching Flash's form vs action.
It's just that people claiming JD is better than Flash if flash lose don't look at the bigger picture. You can't judge who is the better player overall by one Bo5 between the two.
Flash is in both finals for the second time, jaedong isn't. Why is jaedong not... why isn't jaedong on 2440+ elo... why isn't jaedong 70%+ in each matchup. Damage controlling... We just speak up when a totally unlogical statement is being made that one Bo5 will decide everything, when the conditions aren't even the same (one player has to show his gameplay before the finals and prepare for more games than the other). Same as I would speak up if another totally unlogical statement about something else was made.
I wouldn't say that Flash is the undisputed best at Bo5 finals even if he were to 3-0 jaedong.
I disagree. Backho is the best player of all time. Have flash or jaedong ever won a game when they gg:ed first? He also has devised such great strategies as mass dark templar pvz, which is so hard to pull off noone else has ever tried it, neither sooner nor later.
I have one question for JDs fans, just to test the consistency of your logic. IF you are saying JD>Flash based only on the results of their BO5s, ignoring everything else (because you believe that finals of league where the stakes are highest is the most important factor overshadowing anything else)...are you also going to say JD is a sucky team player who is constantly failing Oz?
Ridiculous? Not following this reasoning. Yeah, JD is the best player of the team by far, yadda yadda, but look at how he performed in the finals, where the stakes were highest.
I remember 3 times Oz was in something which could be considered serious teamleague finals: 1) PL finals vs Khan - JD lost to Frozean (!!), luckily his team won rest of the games. 2) Winners league vs CJ - JD ultimately failed to secure victory, CJ won. 3) PL finals vs SKT - JD goes 0:3 in two days, completely failing his team in both normal matches and ace match as well.
So are you going to ignore JDs undisputed hard work and amazing results he did/does for his team and mark him as the ultimate proleague choke artist? Is JD a bad proleague player because he fails everytime the stakes got high?
Definitely not for me, but hey, I'm not the one who is ignoring everything in favor of couple of games.
On May 21 2010 16:05 InFdude wrote: Flash fans are such cowards . If you are so sure in your "God" why do you keep damage controling the scenario of JD>Flash in the MSL. If you really think he's that good just chill and lets see what happens.
Not really damage control, a lot of Flash fans admit Jaedong out prepared and outplayed Flash in that finals. But you'd be an idiot to think that proves Jaedong is the better player overall between the two.
On May 21 2010 14:55 jalstar wrote: mid-month PR in my opinion:
1. Flash - for being Flash 2. Jaedong - almost as good as Flash in recent games, small gap 3. EffOrt - 5-2 in proleague, OSL rampage after tiebreakers 4. Kal - semifinalist and STX is owning in proleague right now 5. Calm - see above 6. BaBy - Ro16 in MSL, Ro8 in OSL, and ace of a good WeMade team 7. free - semifinals but weak in proleague ace matches 8. Pure - WeMade isn't using him much, but still got to semifinals 9. Snow - beat Flash but inexperienced, might be a fluke 10. Midas - didn't play much but didn't get much worse from last PR
if u even think of not putting action on there i'd be very much offended i dont care that he hasnt reached any where in starleagues yet he's good much better than pure
On May 21 2010 21:35 adelarge wrote: I have one question for JDs fans, just to test the consistency of your logic. IF you are saying JD>Flash based only on the results of their BO5s, ignoring everything else (because you believe that finals of league where the stakes are highest is the most important factor overshadowing anything else)...are you also going to say JD is a sucky team player who is constantly failing Oz?
Ridiculous? Not following this reasoning. Yeah, JD is the best player of the team by far, yadda yadda, but look at how he performed in the finals, where the stakes were highest.
I remember 3 times Oz was in something which could be considered serious teamleague finals: 1) PL finals vs Khan - JD lost to Frozean (!!), luckily his team won rest of the games. 2) Winners league vs CJ - JD ultimately failed to secure victory, CJ won. 3) PL finals vs SKT - JD goes 0:3 in two days, completely failing his team in both normal matches and ace match as well.
So are you going to ignore JDs undisputed hard work and amazing results he did/does for his team and mark him as the ultimate proleague choke artist? Is JD a bad proleague player because he fails everytime the stakes got high?
Definitely not for me, but hey, I'm not the one who is ignoring everything in favor of couple of games.
yes its true his real strength is in bo5 where flash is 0-4 !!!!!! and not to mention he had most wins in 2009-2010 proleague + the match with cj vs oz he did kill 3 of cj team leaving skyhigh to face the rest i'm pretty sure if it was the ace match he wouldnt have played that way (failed rush /and a miserably one understandable they were 3-0 leaving skyhigh vs rest of the team who we know suck ) he practiclly brought the team on his own winning on regular bases 2 games in each oz fight and i do believe that to get there on the finals he did ak ktf and flash on the ace on a very amz comeback game !!
Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much. Flash also won all of his games in the only teamleague finals he's ever been in.
Admittedly, the only other time he came close was in the previous season's Winner's League playoffs, where he went 0-2 to a BBS by Fantasy and the aforementioned comeback game.
But, if you're so quick to think that Jaedong is the king of Bo5s, then I guess Flash is the king of Bo3s and proleague, cause he has won ever Bo3 vs Jaedong and has outperformed him in the past 2 seasons of Proleague thusfar.
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
yeah you only need to look at the Flash Fan Club picture.
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
but there isn't any way to settle this argument the last guy just said the last word and i didn't feel like finishing obscure meaning its quite some pages back lol btw all my intentions were to repeat the same cyinical "accusations" toward jaedong's pro league success this is like like arguing which came first the egg or the chicken it all depends on what u define better player
I agree, there's no way to settle the argument right now I just don't think this match will determine who is the best player, even if flash wins. I've played too much BW to think one match settles it and that one matchup settles it. But it's good for the hype I guess.
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
yeah you only need to look at the Flash Fan Club picture.
Jaedong fans = unbiased
Flash fans = unreasonable and blind!!!
The point is that there's more to proving you're a superior player than simply head to head record. Winning a bo5 wouldn't negate the fact that Flash has been showing vastly superior results to Jaedong in the past two seasons.
just want to reiterate that its insane to be ragging on flash when he has just passed 70% in every matchup, passed 2300 in every matchup, gotten to nearly 2450 elo, and made both finals for the second time in a row after almost maintaining a 90% winrate in proleague
pvzvt - There isn't any obscure meaning. I really don't feel like rewrite what I posted, but I could do it, should more people be confused. For now, just rest assured that I'm definitely not trying to undermine all the amazing stuff JD did for his team.
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
yeah you only need to look at the Flash Fan Club picture.
I stated a list of facts and asked a simple question. You didn't make any new argument, nor you tried to find an answer. You just dodged it and attacked a group of people...that's really not helping to improve the image of stereotypical Jaedong fan.
On May 22 2010 02:36 o[twist] wrote: just want to reiterate that its insane to be ragging on flash when he has just passed 70% in every matchup, passed 2300 in every matchup, gotten to nearly 2450 elo, and made both finals for the second time in a row after almost maintaining a 90% winrate in proleague
It is pointless to keep on repeating the same things over and over again, it does not matter that we layeth the truth in front of their eyes when they cannot see. Fanboyism works like a blindfold and it clouds the rational judgement, prevents the infested devotee from thinking clearly.
IMO, if JD wins he'll be taking a giant leap against the position as GOAT, but he sure as hell hasn't been anywhere close to Flash's level for the last 7 months. And it's important to consider that he's quite a lot older than Flash and has been a progamer for more than a year longer. Flash has plenty of time to catch up in terms of titles, considering that he has reached 4 finals out of 4 possible since his reign as bonjwa began and shows no signs of slowing down. They are both brilliant players and I would love to give them a shared position as the definite #1 of all time. <3 the 2 Lee's!
On May 22 2010 02:57 adelarge wrote: pvzvt - There isn't any obscure meaning. I really don't feel like rewrite what I posted, but I could do it, should more people be confused. For now, just rest assured that I'm definitely not trying to undermine all the amazing stuff JD did for his team.
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
yeah you only need to look at the Flash Fan Club picture.
I stated a list of facts and asked a simple question. You didn't make any new argument, nor you tried to find an answer. You just dodged it and attacked a group of people...that's really not helping to improve the image of stereotypical Jaedong fan.
Heh. I merely found it funny that a person who did try and add something to your 'picture' was immediately shouted down by other Flash fans. But whateva brah.
On May 22 2010 02:57 adelarge wrote: pvzvt - There isn't any obscure meaning. I really don't feel like rewrite what I posted, but I could do it, should more people be confused. For now, just rest assured that I'm definitely not trying to undermine all the amazing stuff JD did for his team.
On May 22 2010 02:05 animus123 wrote:
On May 22 2010 00:36 StylishVODs wrote:
On May 22 2010 00:16 pvzvt wrote:
On May 21 2010 22:30 StylishVODs wrote:
On May 21 2010 22:15 pvzvt wrote:
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
yeah you only need to look at the Flash Fan Club picture.
I stated a list of facts and asked a simple question. You didn't make any new argument, nor you tried to find an answer. You just dodged it and attacked a group of people...that's really not helping to improve the image of stereotypical Jaedong fan.
Heh. I merely found it funny that a person who did try and add something to your 'picture' was immediately shouted down by other Flash fans. But whateva brah.
Next time read all the posts in a quote before replying to it.
On May 22 2010 02:57 adelarge wrote: pvzvt - There isn't any obscure meaning. I really don't feel like rewrite what I posted, but I could do it, should more people be confused. For now, just rest assured that I'm definitely not trying to undermine all the amazing stuff JD did for his team.
On May 22 2010 02:05 animus123 wrote:
On May 22 2010 00:36 StylishVODs wrote:
On May 22 2010 00:16 pvzvt wrote:
On May 21 2010 22:30 StylishVODs wrote:
On May 21 2010 22:15 pvzvt wrote:
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
yeah you only need to look at the Flash Fan Club picture.
I stated a list of facts and asked a simple question. You didn't make any new argument, nor you tried to find an answer. You just dodged it and attacked a group of people...that's really not helping to improve the image of stereotypical Jaedong fan.
Heh. I merely found it funny that a person who did try and add something to your 'picture' was immediately shouted down by other Flash fans. But whateva brah.
Next time read all the posts in a quote before replying to it.
I did. Next time try not to assume people can't draw different conclusions from said posts.
On May 22 2010 02:57 adelarge wrote: pvzvt - There isn't any obscure meaning. I really don't feel like rewrite what I posted, but I could do it, should more people be confused. For now, just rest assured that I'm definitely not trying to undermine all the amazing stuff JD did for his team.
On May 22 2010 02:05 animus123 wrote:
On May 22 2010 00:36 StylishVODs wrote:
On May 22 2010 00:16 pvzvt wrote:
On May 21 2010 22:30 StylishVODs wrote:
On May 21 2010 22:15 pvzvt wrote:
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
yeah you only need to look at the Flash Fan Club picture.
I stated a list of facts and asked a simple question. You didn't make any new argument, nor you tried to find an answer. You just dodged it and attacked a group of people...that's really not helping to improve the image of stereotypical Jaedong fan.
Heh. I merely found it funny that a person who did try and add something to your 'picture' was immediately shouted down by other Flash fans. But whateva brah.
Next time read all the posts in a quote before replying to it.
I did. Next time try not to assume people can't draw different conclusions from said posts.
Adelarge said that by not looking at the big picture you could say certain events state the skill of a player. He made an example with jaedong instead of flash and pvzvt answered with explaining why you can't just look at a few events because it can be misleading. They were actually arguing for the same cause.
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
yeah you only need to look at the Flash Fan Club picture.
Jaedong fans = unbiased
Flash fans = unreasonable and blind!!!
The point is that there's more to proving you're a superior player than simply head to head record. Winning a bo5 wouldn't negate the fact that Flash has been showing vastly superior results to Jaedong in the past two seasons.
And if JD wins we can say he has been great for A LOT longer than 2 seasons. Those 6 SLs awards sure look nice.
If we're going to talk abotu the past and not look just at who is better now (and bo5 is the best test of this) then Flash can't win that argument either unless you set some arbitrary line in the sand for when we should start counting wins. Both have like the same record in the last few dozen games.
OK, if you want to make the power rank about who the best player of all time is then throw Jaedong up at #1. Maybe consider putting Nada, Savior, oov above Flash too right?
On the other hand, if you want to look at recent performance Flash has simply done much better than Jaedong in every way whether he wins the series or not.
On May 22 2010 09:15 Rostam wrote: OK, if you want to make the power rank about who the best player of all time is then throw Jaedong up at #1. Maybe consider putting Nada, Savior, oov above Flash too right?
On the other hand, if you want to look at recent performance Flash has simply done much better than Jaedong in every way whether he wins the series or not.
Jaedongs record in May is better. Two finals or not every way isn't entirely accurate
Ok, not every way then. If Flash plays as well as he should against Effort then I think Jaedong would have to win pretty convincingly to be at #1 though regardless.
On May 22 2010 13:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Actually, this month Jaedong is undefeated. If Jaedong beats Flash I could see him being put at #1 for being undefeated and taking a Bo5 off Flash.
How can Jaedong be undefeated when he lost a game to Calm?
On May 22 2010 13:18 TwoToneTerran wrote: Actually, this month Jaedong is undefeated. If Jaedong beats Flash I could see him being put at #1 for being undefeated and taking a Bo5 off Flash.
How can Jaedong be undefeated when he lost a game to Calm?
Oh jesus you're right. I completely brainfarted on that one.
On May 22 2010 02:57 adelarge wrote: pvzvt - There isn't any obscure meaning. I really don't feel like rewrite what I posted, but I could do it, should more people be confused. For now, just rest assured that I'm definitely not trying to undermine all the amazing stuff JD did for his team.
On May 21 2010 22:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash AK'd Oz before too. Doesn't mean much.
yes i never said flash didnt but the guy above me tried to make it look jaedong does nothing in proleague he brought some examples so i gave my own to counter
I think you mistunderstood his post.
no no i think i got the drift of it
No, the drift of it is; should you really base an arguement that determines a player is better than another based on something other than the whole piucture? By explaining as you did you add to the picture, which was something you weren't supposed to do following that logic.
yeah you only need to look at the Flash Fan Club picture.
I stated a list of facts and asked a simple question. You didn't make any new argument, nor you tried to find an answer. You just dodged it and attacked a group of people...that's really not helping to improve the image of stereotypical Jaedong fan.
i think we've done our damage ...... and btw some of your examples were really cheap shots u can take every incident and point it the way u want i just pointed it the way i wanted what's not fair about it but i think we overtalked the subject there isnt any way to prove anything sure flash is playing the best starcraft i've ever seen breaking all records and calling it a streak is ludicrous cause u can see its his "normal pace" since it lasts for quite some time but not being able to defeat the "2nd" best player at the moment in a bo5 while jaedong is doing fairly amz as well this month ( and for some time ,just not so consistent). it all depends on the scale of time u look at , if u take their all career into consideration jaedong is better if u take last half year its flash with out a doubt with no competition (a side the little msl finals incident) and if u take this last month well than we will have to wait and see lets just agree we and all the forum are lucky to have the 2 best players in starcraft live and play at the same time and will play a bo5 in the finals awesome is a puny word that can not describe it ! gooooo jaedong
Sorry for bringing it up... this is the wrong thread for controversy. Just saying, the gap between top 2 (maybe top 3, depending on outcome of OSL finals) and the rest of the Power Rank is huge enough for power outage to make a return.
On May 22 2010 22:17 Holgerius wrote: Flash is gonna have to beat JD to keep #1 now.
agreed. whoever wins jd flash is #1. Effort didn't display enough skills to claim #1 imo. the games didnt go far enough to know anything except that he lost the only games that went past 10 minutes.. ' Still he won fair and square, congratulations!!
I am curious whether Flash will play in tomorrow's game vs Hite... And Effort not at #1 is pretty clear.
I really wonder how Flash is going to play against Jaedong. Even in game 2 he sacrificed a huge group of mnm, a mistake JD would have punished severely.
And once again Flash lost all his mindgames against CJ. I guess mindgame ranking is #1 JD, #2 CJ, #3 Flash.
Actually considering CJ has sniped JD a lot of times too...
CJ coaching staff is the best in the world since Kingdom left SKT1 imo.
Flash played really, really badly in the last half of that series. Game 3 was very careless (and apparently all Effort's doing if you buy into that, although that sounds mostly like hot air). Game 4 wasn't really his fault as once the BOs were thrown there was nothing else he could do, but game 5 was a really poor display, a decent wall would have won that golden mouse.
To call Effort's play uninspiring is an enormous understatement, but he got the job done. I don't think Effort's stock increased too much during that so much as Flash's went waaaay down. That said, I have faith that he picks up the pieces and brings it to Jaedong for a great MSL final.
On May 22 2010 22:37 Tianx wrote: Flash played really, really badly in the last half of that series. Game 3 was very careless (and apparently all Effort's doing if you buy into that, although that sounds mostly like hot air). Game 4 wasn't really his fault as once the BOs were thrown there was nothing else he could do, but game 5 was a really poor display, a decent wall would have won that golden mouse.
To call Effort's play uninspiring is an enormous understatement, but he got the job done. I don't think Effort's stock increased too much during that so much as Flash's went waaaay down. That said, I have faith that he picks up the pieces and brings it to Jaedong for a great MSL final.
jaedong will eat his liver with a nice bottle of a chianti
On May 23 2010 00:19 TwoToneTerran wrote: woo, years of being a Flash fan have apparently made me immune to crushing disappointment. Weird feeling, that.
Uhm... being a Flash fan since day 1, I'm still not immune to crushing disappointment. Maybe you can teach me how to do that?
Look man when you're rooting for Flash with all your soul and he loses to Luxury and Leta then you just kind of give up ACTUALLY caring when it goes down hill.
On May 23 2010 00:55 TwoToneTerran wrote: Look man when you're rooting for Flash with all your soul and he loses to Luxury and Leta then you just kind of give up ACTUALLY caring when it goes down hill.
Luxury and Leta at least became good players. You know how horrible it felt seeing Jaedong lose to Tempest?
On May 22 2010 22:37 Tianx wrote: Flash played really, really badly in the last half of that series. Game 3 was very careless (and apparently all Effort's doing if you buy into that, although that sounds mostly like hot air). Game 4 wasn't really his fault as once the BOs were thrown there was nothing else he could do, but game 5 was a really poor display, a decent wall would have won that golden mouse.
To call Effort's play uninspiring is an enormous understatement, but he got the job done. I don't think Effort's stock increased too much during that so much as Flash's went waaaay down. That said, I have faith that he picks up the pieces and brings it to Jaedong for a great MSL final.
Let's give some credit where credit is due however.
- EffOrt's play in the aborted game 1 was very strong, and with the build he was using, the hydra switch may (or may not, no way to know) have been deadly. He played excellently in the first game once it started again, but Flash played tighter. - In game 2, EffOrt got out-multitasked. It's that simple, and it almost never happens (I stand by EffOrt having the best mutli-task in the game.) but it does occasionally, and Flash played that game absolutely brilliantly. - In game 3, I'm still not convinced whether EffOrt's plan was to go all-in with mutas (I was hoping he would talk about the individual games in the interview, but they didn't ask.) but he clearly planned a highly aggressive bait-and-switch with his zerglings, which was superbly pulled off. - In game 4, he won the battle of the mind games, and played incredibly patiently to see the game to the finish. That game could very well have been dangerous for him, I'll bet that Shine loses that game. - In game 5, he played similarly as in game 3, intending to be aggressive with zerglings, and then two hatch. Until he saw that Flash had made a critical error, and then he just kept pumping lings for the win.
Did Flash play badly? Only in the fifth game. Did EffOrt play well? Yes, he absolutely did. In fact, I get the exact opposite read, EffOrt's stock has got to rise tremendously; he's played on, and delivered on the big stage. Flash's stock is about the same; we know that he can be beaten, and we know how good he is.
So in essence, I don't think EffOrt defeated Flash in a manner that should get him the top spot on the PR, but I think EffOrt very clearly has shown that he deserves to be in the discussion of top-tier gamers.
I still stand by my statement that not including Effort was a mistake, both based on his performance in April and his recent performance obviously fortifies my past statement even more.
On May 22 2010 22:17 Holgerius wrote: Flash is gonna have to beat JD to keep #1 now.
Yeah pretty clearly. He's going to have to step up his game significantly though. EffOrt's looked good recently but Jaedong's been absolutely terrifying and he's on quite a roll.
On May 22 2010 22:17 Holgerius wrote: Flash is gonna have to beat JD to keep #1 now.
Yeah pretty clearly. He's going to have to step up his game significantly though. EffOrt's looked good recently but Jaedong's been absolutely terrifying and he's on quite a roll.
He just has to be more careful I think. His gameplay was awesome. Look at his games 1 and 2, I think he can play like that and still take the dong down.
He just needs to work at his early midgame which has been lacking abit lately...
On May 22 2010 22:17 Holgerius wrote: Flash is gonna have to beat JD to keep #1 now.
Yeah pretty clearly. He's going to have to step up his game significantly though. EffOrt's looked good recently but Jaedong's been absolutely terrifying and he's on quite a roll.
He just has to be more careful I think. His gameplay was awesome. Look at his games 1 and 2, I think he can play like that and still take the dong down.
He just needs to work at his early midgame which has been lacking abit lately...
Sorry man. Not happening. He didn't play that good in games 1 and 2. The mistakes he made would have lost him those games against the dong. Talking about 1 before the re.
On May 22 2010 22:17 Holgerius wrote: Flash is gonna have to beat JD to keep #1 now.
Yeah pretty clearly. He's going to have to step up his game significantly though. EffOrt's looked good recently but Jaedong's been absolutely terrifying and he's on quite a roll.
He just has to be more careful I think. His gameplay was awesome. Look at his games 1 and 2, I think he can play like that and still take the dong down.
He just needs to work at his early midgame which has been lacking abit lately...
Sorry man. Not happening. He didn't play that good in games 1 and 2. The mistakes he made would have lost him those games against the dong. Talking about 1 before the re.
Also, can we drop the b-word already??
What mistakes are you talking about? Yes he made a mismicro in the early midgame in game 2 as I said. And the restart game? So, a drone got into his base... its not really something hard that needs to be fixed.
On May 23 2010 04:17 Shikyo wrote: I still stand by my statement that not including Effort was a mistake, both based on his performance in April and his recent performance obviously fortifies my past statement even more.
1. Winner of MSL 2. Loser of MSL 3. Effort 4. Kal 5. Calm
rest can go any way, but no way does Flash deserve #1 if he loses both finals. Kal, Calm, or both should be dropped out of the top 5 if STX loses to SKT.
TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread.
I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you...
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
With a win against Flash, Jaedong would have a BETTER record than Flash over their last 30 games. That combined with a head-to-head win and Flash's lack of titles should put JD #1.
With a win against Flash, Jaedong would have a BETTER record than Flash over their last 30 games. That combined with a head-to-head win and Flash's lack of titles should put JD #1.
I agree with you, and your rankings listed three posts above. Also Jaedong is cute :3
I've been watching sc for months now but havent been following it closely so I don't know where Bisu is, but I'm really hoping that he makes a come-back. I love Bisu vs. Flash games, because I love protoss.
On May 23 2010 17:27 naisanza wrote: I've been watching sc for months now but havent been following it closely so I don't know where Bisu is, but I'm really hoping that he makes a come-back. I love Bisu vs. Flash games, because I love protoss.
Bisu is in deep deep slump. >.>
SKT is in fact supported by its Zerg line up right now. I am not really sure what's wrong with Bisu. He was doing pretty decent in R1 and R2. But after losing to go.go twice, he slumped hardcore.
On May 23 2010 17:27 naisanza wrote: I've been watching sc for months now but havent been following it closely so I don't know where Bisu is, but I'm really hoping that he makes a come-back. I love Bisu vs. Flash games, because I love protoss.
Bisu is in deep deep slump. >.>
SKT is in fact supported by its Zerg line up right now. I am not really sure what's wrong with Bisu. He was doing pretty decent in R1 and R2. But after losing to go.go twice, he slumped hardcore.
SKT1 Toss haven't been playing anywhere near S-class since Kingdom left.
On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote: TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread.
I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you...
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back.
The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him.
I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that.
Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever.
On May 23 2010 19:48 InFdude wrote: I agree with the post above me . We all know that 2 finals are > 6 SL titles . IMO we should put Flash at N1 and his monitor at N2 because it is the only thing that can beat flash in a stright up game .
I'm sorry I was unaware that Jaedong got 6 SL titles this month. My mistake..
It's hard to deny that Effort got a 4-2 lead head-to-head vs Flash this month and a starleague gold.
...And if JD wins he will have better over-all record as well as head-to-head than Flash. But I guess Flash fans defend their god no mather what.
Most Flash fans are agreeing that if JD wins the finals he deserves #1. It's pretty incredible that someone can make 2 finals simultaneously (and 4 out of the last 4 finals) and not be #1, but Jaedong has been playing so well and deserves the benefit of the doubt given his overall aura and legacy (which in my opinion should contribute to your "power" for their rank)
But as for Effort, it's not just your record but how you win the games. If you really think Effort should be above Flash for going 4-2 against him while getting crushed in both games that he didn't get a gigantic early game advantage in, well, that's just ridiculous. I'm not trying to discount Effort's great play to get those advantages but come on. Savior once got crushed in a final 3-0 and retained #1, and he deserved to stay there. Circumstances dictate that JD should get #1 if he wins the finals but there's no way Effort should be above Flash.
On May 23 2010 19:48 InFdude wrote: I agree with the post above me . We all know that 2 finals are > 6 SL titles . IMO we should put Flash at N1 and his monitor at N2 because it is the only thing that can beat flash in a stright up game .
On May 23 2010 21:41 SuperArc wrote: Another argument for JD>Flash is when JD wins the finals is can you really give a person with nine losses #1?
Nine losses that all mattered.
Yeah, resultwise it's hard to defend that being #1. Reaching both finals is inhuman though. Both players he faced only had to prepare for one.
I stand by it that if jaedong shows he is better than flash in the finals he should get #1 because then he performed better this month. This is a monthly rank after all, but effort should no way be above flash because PR is not only about score but how you play and what skill you posess.
Maaan the one thing that annoys me is that there's no way Flash's Elo is recovering from this. He barely recovers everytime he gets one loss, much less this many.
On May 23 2010 22:42 TwoToneTerran wrote: Maaan the one thing that annoys me is that there's no way Flash's Elo is recovering from this. He barely recovers everytime he gets one loss, much less this many.
Blah, he's so good that he'll be back on 2400 in no time. Atleast his record is very likely never being surpassed:D
But I must say, it seems as if he actually is choking hardcore vs zergs in finals hehe
On May 23 2010 21:41 SuperArc wrote: Another argument for JD>Flash is when JD wins the finals is can you really give a person with nine losses #1?
Nine losses that all mattered.
Yeah, resultwise it's hard to defend that being #1. Reaching both finals is inhuman though. Both players he faced only had to prepare for one.
I stand by it that if jaedong shows he is better than flash in the finals he should get #1 because then he performed better this month. This is a monthly rank after all, but effort should no way be above flash because PR is not only about score but how you play and what skill you posess.
And flash will win MSL, flash fighting!! :D
if it was the other way around and had he played the msl finals first and lose than i would have agreed that there was no way he would lose to effort ,,,, infact how the hell did he lose to him?,,, i'm pretty sure it wont affect him too much but still the dong is the dong
That's the beauty of the monthly power rank ... you get crushed in MST (hi Effort 0-2 to scrub Terrans)/ODT (hi Jaedong 0-2 getting worked hard by Baby on FS) but since it's two months ago it doesn't matter as much. That's fair, monthly is monthly and performance before the month should count for less.
Still, I can't believe we're seeing the day where a player who has crushed all opposition with just one exception for 8 months in a row, makes 4 out of 4 finals, then loses the OSL 3-2 is now potentially #3 (I guess you can make an argument for it if he gets crushed convincingly 3-0 by JD).
Such is the fickle nature of progaming. Just like that.
On May 24 2010 08:49 darktreb wrote: That's the beauty of the monthly power rank ... you get crushed in MST (hi Effort 0-2 to scrub Terrans)/ODT (hi Jaedong 0-2 getting worked hard by Baby on FS) but since it's two months ago it doesn't matter as much. That's fair, monthly is monthly and performance before the month should count for less.
Still, I can't believe we're seeing the day where a player who has crushed all opposition with just one exception for 8 months in a row, makes 4 out of 4 finals, then loses the OSL 3-2 is now potentially #3 (I guess you can make an argument for it if he gets crushed convincingly 3-0 by JD).
Such is the fickle nature of progaming. Just like that.
FlaSh could forget to build a fifth scv all three games against Jaedong and he still wouldn't be 3
On May 23 2010 21:57 StylishVODs wrote: This is a monthly rank after all, but effort should no way be above flash because PR is not only about score but how you play and what skill you posess.
Effort did not achieve his recent 4-2 record over Flash by being outplayed. :|
On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote: TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread.
I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you...
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back.
The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him.
I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that.
Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever.
Regarding spoilers, it's the magnitude of the event that bothers me with people talking so candidly. I already knew the result coming in here, but still.
Making both finals may be more impressive than winning one final, but JD is now in his fourth consecutive final, which I would consider even more impressive than making two finals (what IS impressive, however, is that Flash has now back-to-back made two finals).
Really the thing about Flash, as I've said elsewhere, is that it's his near perfect fundamentals that makes him so ridiculously hard to beat. I don't think it's fair to criticize players for trying to get an early advantage. This is a strategy game and losing to well-planned strategy is a part of this game. And so far, Flash's weakness is that he seems to make certain kinds of tactical/strategic errors. So far, Zergs have been the best at exploiting this, largely because ZvT has evolved in a way different than most other match-ups: ZvT openings these days are incredibly diverse and Zerg tactics have become much deeper. As much as I hate to say it, in many ways Zerg has become the most strategic race.
An integral part of Flash's game play is taking calculated risks to strengthen his mid/late game. Zergs are much better at figuring out when those risks are being made and exploiting them. Effort's win over Flash should not be overlooked because he did exactly what he was supposed to and managed to exploit tactical errors.
Interestingly, as much as I think of Jaedong as a mechanical player, this is where he shines over Flash: he's a much better strategic player. I'm sure now a gazillion Flash fans will come out of the woodwork to scream at me for saying it, but it's true, and it's exactly why Jaedong is so damn good at Bo5's [edit: comment amended elsewhere].
I think Protoss, on the other hand, is suffering right now from a stagnation in strategic development. A player with Nal_Ra's mind and Bisu's hands would make a killing right now, but there isn't such a player, hence why Jaedong and Flash, the two closest players to being perfect, walk over toss player after toss player with little effort.
On May 24 2010 10:11 Mortality wrote: Interestingly, as much as I think of Jaedong as a mechanical player, this is where he shines over Flash: he's a much better strategic player. I'm sure now a gazillion Flash fans will come out of the woodwork to scream at me for saying it, but it's true, and it's exactly why Jaedong is so damn good at Bo5's..
Oh, make no mistake that mental strength is a huge part of it. Actually, I should amend my previous remark. I've commented before that mentally speaking, Jaedong has something even the bonjwas didn't have in terms of tenacity.
But make no mistake, Jaedong has been rethinking and adapting constantly. Zerg as a race entered a slump once Protoss players figured out how to mimic Bisu. Late 2007 through 2008 was not a good time to be a Zerg, really. Jaedong has been key in turning things around, pioneering builds and timings, showing how to use 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra to overcome Bisu, showing how to overcome Fantasy's valkyries.
Jaedong's ability to make these strategic adaptations on the spot is what makes his bo5 play so devastating. And a lot of that is his mental fortitude at work, allowing him to calmly dissect his opponents under pressure, but a lot of that is strategic genius.
Flash of course is not a terrible strategist, as the Flash build has shown us. And he's not a terrible tactician either (watch any one of his TvT's pretty much ever and you should be convinced that he's tactically strong). But Flash has a tendency to ride on his fundamentals alone. He's a rare player in this regard, however, he relies too heavily on fundamentals I think. It works. It works too well I think. For Jaedong it hasn't worked as well, so Jaedong continues to experiment and continues to change Zerg. Jaedong continues thinking about how to find that extra opening. And so Jaedong is better at it.
On May 24 2010 11:43 Mortality wrote: Oh, make no mistake that mental strength is a huge part of it. Actually, I should amend my previous remark. I've commented before that mentally speaking, Jaedong has something even the bonjwas didn't have in terms of tenacity.
But make no mistake, Jaedong has been rethinking and adapting constantly. Zerg as a race entered a slump once Protoss players figured out how to mimic Bisu. Late 2007 through 2008 was not a good time to be a Zerg, really. Jaedong has been key in turning things around, pioneering builds and timings, showing how to use 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra to overcome Bisu, showing how to overcome Fantasy's valkyries.
Jaedong's ability to make these strategic adaptations on the spot is what makes his bo5 play so devastating. And a lot of that is his mental fortitude at work, allowing him to calmly dissect his opponents under pressure, but a lot of that is strategic genius.
Flash of course is not a terrible strategist, as the Flash build has shown us. And he's not a terrible tactician either (watch any one of his TvT's pretty much ever and you should be convinced that he's tactically strong). But Flash has a tendency to ride on his fundamentals alone. He's a rare player in this regard, however, he relies too heavily on fundamentals I think. It works. It works too well I think. For Jaedong it hasn't worked as well, so Jaedong continues to experiment and continues to change Zerg. Jaedong continues thinking about how to find that extra opening. And so Jaedong is better at it.
I don't really understand your argument (and I know I'm jumping right into your "I know all Flash fans will scream"). Flash has basically created every major TvZ/TvP innovation in the past 2 1/2 years with the exception of the Fantasy build. Flash tends to create builds that are "more guidelines than rules" which utilize his strong fundamentals (which I agree that he might over-rely on depending on the situation). He completely dictates the TvX metagame in all matchups, and has for a long time.
Jaedong is of course strategically very sound, as is any player of his caliber, and does a better job preparing for bo5's than anyone. Then there's his mental strength and all that jazz. So maybe the difference is strategic preparation for a bo5 as opposed to strategic preparation for a build that will be usable for the next 6 months. Jaedong is definitely better at the first. I think the second one is a wash.
On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote: TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread.
I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you...
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back.
The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him.
I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that.
Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever.
I really hate that people think that flash is simply the best at "straight up game". Effort beat him in PL "straight up", action almost beat him "straith up" even with a disadvantage mid game. Snow beat him with a calculated risk in a long game.
The reason why most players try to beat flash early game is because he almost always take calculated risks and cut corners early/mid game. If people play standard and does not punish him for this in any way he comes into mid-lategame with an advantage which he is extremely good to run to a victory no matter what the enemy throws at him.
Some calculated risks are having 1 factory for a long long time in a game to get fast tech and upgrades, or FE'ing with minimal troops or moving out with marines extremely soon to force sunkens when he think the enemy has no troops. These are all small things that gets him into lategame with an advantage, and is very hard to punish because he mostly makes the right decisions and have strong defensive mechanics and micro. But as effort showed you can play into this and punish him for it.
So I believe it is actually flash that tries to get an early game advantage, just in a more subtle way that is very hard to punish him for due to his skill and game sense .
On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote: TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread.
I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you...
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back.
The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him.
I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that.
Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever.
I really hate that people think that flash is simply the best at "straight up game". Effort beat him in PL "straight up", action almost beat him "straith up" even with a disadvantage mid game. Snow beat him with a calculated risk in a long game.
The reason why most players try to beat flash early game is because he almost always take calculated risks and cut corners early/mid game. If people play standard and does not punish him for this in any way he comes into mid-lategame with an advantage which he is extremely good to run to a victory no matter what the enemy throws at him.
Some calculated risks are having 1 factory for a long long time in a game to get fast tech and upgrades, or FE'ing with minimal troops or moving out with marines extremely soon to force sunkens when he think the enemy has no troops. These are all small things that gets him into lategame with an advantage, and is very hard to punish because he mostly makes the right decisions and have strong defensive mechanics and micro. But as effort showed you can play into this and punish him for it.
So I believe it is actually flash that tries to get an early game advantage, just in a more subtle way that is very hard to punish him for due to his skill and game sense .
I'm sorry you hate me then but I think Flash has better overall game management and macro/micro than any other player right now with the exception of jaedong when he's doing his best. If you think other players are as good as him overall then I'm fine with that.
He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time. He's just damn good at what he does. I congratulated effort on his win but I cannot say that he showed us amazing games in that series as far as I'm concerned. He played like Octoberzerg
And since you use that PL game to describe how effort won a straight up game I'm jsut going to assume that you don't know much about starcraft in the first place.
On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote: TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread.
I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you...
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back.
The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him.
I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that.
Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever.
I really hate that people think that flash is simply the best at "straight up game". Effort beat him in PL "straight up", action almost beat him "straith up" even with a disadvantage mid game. Snow beat him with a calculated risk in a long game.
The reason why most players try to beat flash early game is because he almost always take calculated risks and cut corners early/mid game. If people play standard and does not punish him for this in any way he comes into mid-lategame with an advantage which he is extremely good to run to a victory no matter what the enemy throws at him.
Some calculated risks are having 1 factory for a long long time in a game to get fast tech and upgrades, or FE'ing with minimal troops or moving out with marines extremely soon to force sunkens when he think the enemy has no troops. These are all small things that gets him into lategame with an advantage, and is very hard to punish because he mostly makes the right decisions and have strong defensive mechanics and micro. But as effort showed you can play into this and punish him for it.
So I believe it is actually flash that tries to get an early game advantage, just in a more subtle way that is very hard to punish him for due to his skill and game sense .
I'm sorry you hate me then but I think Flash has better overall game management and macro/micro than any other player right now with the exception of jaedong when he's doing his best. If you think other players are as good as him overall then I'm fine with that.
He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time. He's just damn good at what he does. I congratulated effort on his win but I cannot say that he showed us amazing games in that series as far as I'm concerned. He played like Octoberzerg
And since you use that PL game to describe how effort won a straight up game I'm jsut going to assume that you don't know much about starcraft in the first place.
First of, I did not say I hate people, I said I hate that people think that flash has the best "straight up" game.
Also I did acknowlegde that he has very good mechanics and decisions, otherwise he would not be able to pull these calculated risks off that in almost every game he plays.
I'm just saying he forces people to do risks as well, which often means he forces his opponents to go early aggresion, because he cuts corners early. The thing is just that most players early aggresion is more blatant than flash's more subtle risks.
But look at JD's and Snow's way of turning flash's risks against him. In the last MSL between JD and flash, JD went 3 hatch before pool in 2 games (and in a proleague game later) and snow went FE with 2 zealots because they predicted that flash would cut the usual corners and they took advantage of this.
What I am trying to say is simply that Flash's late/mid game often seems imba, but this is largely applied to his ability to make very clever risks which sets him up for his lategame style. When these risks are insuccesful there are a handful of players that have just as good straight up game. IMO.
Nobody's perfect. From time to time, your opening will be guessed correctly and countered. Still Flash won a ridiculous amount of games this month.
After the loss to Effort, it is important for Flash to acknowledge a lot of things. One of those things is the first sentence of my post. The other is - Jaedong is completely different thing. So, he should practice accordingly, to counter his play.
And the most important thing, that we all need from Flash. Forget about the games vs Effort, come to finals with clear and optimistic state of mind. This is what we all need to get a good finals.
On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote: TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread.
I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you...
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
I agree with you that Flash is the #1 player unless Jaedong really shows that he is the BETTER player during that series and not just win like Effort did. Imo reaching both finals and taking no gold is more impressive than taking a gold. However then you must look more than a month back.
The fact that the players try SOO hard to get an early game advantage vs Flash proves that they think it's really hard to win a straight up game vs him.
I just don't know if the PR will reflect on who actually has more skill or who wins and gets the results for this month. Coz if it reflects who gets the job done and Flash loses both finals I can't really defend that.
Seriously people shouldn't read PR if they don't want games spoiled. Ever.
I really hate that people think that flash is simply the best at "straight up game". Effort beat him in PL "straight up", action almost beat him "straith up" even with a disadvantage mid game. Snow beat him with a calculated risk in a long game.
The reason why most players try to beat flash early game is because he almost always take calculated risks and cut corners early/mid game. If people play standard and does not punish him for this in any way he comes into mid-lategame with an advantage which he is extremely good to run to a victory no matter what the enemy throws at him.
Some calculated risks are having 1 factory for a long long time in a game to get fast tech and upgrades, or FE'ing with minimal troops or moving out with marines extremely soon to force sunkens when he think the enemy has no troops. These are all small things that gets him into lategame with an advantage, and is very hard to punish because he mostly makes the right decisions and have strong defensive mechanics and micro. But as effort showed you can play into this and punish him for it.
So I believe it is actually flash that tries to get an early game advantage, just in a more subtle way that is very hard to punish him for due to his skill and game sense .
I'm sorry you hate me then but I think Flash has better overall game management and macro/micro than any other player right now with the exception of jaedong when he's doing his best. If you think other players are as good as him overall then I'm fine with that.
He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time. He's just damn good at what he does. I congratulated effort on his win but I cannot say that he showed us amazing games in that series as far as I'm concerned. He played like Octoberzerg
And since you use that PL game to describe how effort won a straight up game I'm jsut going to assume that you don't know much about starcraft in the first place.
First of, I did not say I hate people, I said I hate that people think that flash has the best "straight up" game.
Also I did acknowlegde that he has very good mechanics and decisions, otherwise he would not be able to pull these calculated risks off that in almost every game he plays.
I'm just saying he forces people to do risks as well, which often means he forces his opponents to go early aggresion, because he cuts corners early. The thing is just that most players early aggresion is more blatant than flash's more subtle risks.
But look at JD's and Snow's way of turning flash's risks against him. In the last MSL between JD and flash, JD went 3 hatch before pool in 2 games (and in a proleague game later) and snow went FE with 2 zealots because they predicted that flash would cut the usual corners and they took advantage of this.
What I am trying to say is simply that Flash's late/mid game often seems imba, but this is largely applied to his ability to make very clever risks which sets him up for his lategame style. When these risks are insuccesful there are a handful of players that have just as good straight up game. IMO.
Ok I'm sorry, I misread that as "I hate people who thinks..." so I overreacted abit.
But I still stand by my point that he has the best game management out of all players right now. JD went 3 hatch before pool, same as effort simply to get an edge early on because they need it vs Flash. Effort more than Jaedong. Flash did in fact not use very risky builds vs JD, I would have liked to see 3hatch before pool vs 14CC for example, or both players open equal builds.
I agree that flash often cuts corners, all top players do, which leads him into a good position in the lategame but that is not all. In the lategame, no matter the start, Flash seems to have more control over numerous bases than any other player right now. Macro and so on while multitasking. That is why he had almost 90% in proleague and was in both finals for the second time in a row. He is simply that good.
To claim that any other progamer right now, except Jaedong if he's really back in form, has equal lategame management as Flash is just wrong
I don't know about all the fancy little details which may make Flash the best, although of course I also have my theories.
The one thing I do know as a fact is, that whenever in any game they show Flashs base, his barracks are always blinking. Always. All the time, until he runs out of ressources. Macro in general has become pretty unreal, but compared to other terrans (it's hard to compare with Z's or P's) Flash is just the king of macro. His timing attacks often look so strong because he literally just produces more units than his opponent with the same base-count. Add that to the fact that he sometimes doesn't lose a single marine to early flanks (in zvt that is), and you got yourself unreal armies very early on.
Anyway. If he beats JD he stays #1, if he loses he has to be #2. EffOrt should be #3 regardless what happens.
On May 24 2010 15:30 StylishVODs wrote: I still can't believe it didn't end 3-0 for flash lol
Me neither =/
I can. I expected Flash to take the series with a score of 3-1 at the worst, but Flash got punished for playing like Flash.
Effort should be getting more credit for punishing Flash's risks, not criticism.
I don't know man... punnishing his risks? More like punnishing terrans weakness early game. He did it well but it's not really that hard.
The games he won were basically 2hatch massling and get a surround ealry game, then he scouted the proxy and then he did zergling allin that I see alot on iccup lower levels. Effective but not that hard to do.
Effort is good and can play a well managed game, don't get me wrong, but what he did to win those games doesn't exactly merrit that much credit or mentioning that he played amazingly or something like that.....
Yeah. Effort deserves the opposite of criticism, but games 3-5 were really like Flash vs Kwanro game 2, only three consecutive times instead of once. Now, I do think Effort is better than Kwanro, but still...
Actually, if you think about this game as a STRATEGY game, you will understand that EffOrt did play amazing, as he used the correct strategies to counteract FlaSh's only real weakness. So what if the games EffOrt won weren't macro games? This game isn't about pure mechanics like IdrA would want you to believe. EffOrt played perfectly well, and won the series. That's all that counts.
Now I just can't wait for Jaedong to smash FlaSh, it's extremely boring to see one player dominate, and I think FlaSh has burnt out by now.
On May 24 2010 15:30 StylishVODs wrote: I still can't believe it didn't end 3-0 for flash lol
Me neither =/
I can. I expected Flash to take the series with a score of 3-1 at the worst, but Flash got punished for playing like Flash.
Effort should be getting more credit for punishing Flash's risks, not criticism.
I don't know man... punnishing his risks? More like punnishing terrans weakness early game. He did it well but it's not really that hard.
The games he won were basically 2hatch massling and get a surround ealry game, then he scouted the proxy and then he did zergling allin that I see alot on iccup lower levels. Effective but not that hard to do.
Effort is good and can play a well managed game, don't get me wrong, but what he did to win those games doesn't exactly merrit that much credit or mentioning that he played amazingly or something like that.....
This and I still think Game 3 was more luck than anything else... Had Flash waited 2 more seconds for his medics it would have been a completely different game. Whether you believe the "EffOrt lured Flash out by losing lings on purpose" stories or not, there was no way in hell EffOrt could have calculated that Flash would move out without his 2 medics instead of waiting 1 or 2 more secs. I'm not saying EffOrt played like crap in that game and only won by luck, but this was the game winning situation imho and it was based mainly on luck.
I'm comfortable with giving EffOrt credit for Game 4, since he expected Flash to proxy and thus scouted it. But again, it was basically one crucial moment that decided the rest of the game. It would have required some huge mistake on EffOrt's part to allow Flash to come back from this.
Game 5 was completely Flash's own fault. In retrospect, I don't even blame him for going 14CC, as some people have elaborated why he might have felt that he needed to. He should have walled off though.
Summary: Game 3 - Luck; Game 4 - Scouting(one crucial moment of scouting as opposed to perfect scouting over a 20min. game for example); Game 5 - Screw up by Flash
EffOrt didn't take single straight up macro game off of Flash.
Now don't get me wrong. Of course this isn't an in-depth analysis and I am biased being a Flash fan. On the other hand though I'm a CJ fan too, so it could have hit me worse. The thing is, I have accepted that EffOrt won the OSL fair and square, but don't expect me to give him a crap ton of credit or praise for the way he did it.
On May 25 2010 04:33 okum wrote: Yeah. Effort deserves the opposite of criticism, but games 3-5 were really like Flash vs Kwanro game 2, only three consecutive times instead of once. Now, I do think Effort is better than Kwanro, but still...
Flash wanted mind games he got mind games. props to the winner
On May 25 2010 04:38 ZZangDreamjOy wrote: Actually, if you think about this game as a STRATEGY game, you will understand that EffOrt did play amazing, as he used the correct strategies to counteract FlaSh's only real weakness. So what if the games EffOrt won weren't macro games? This game isn't about pure mechanics like IdrA would want you to believe. EffOrt played perfectly well, and won the series. That's all that counts.
Now I just can't wait for Jaedong to smash FlaSh, it's extremely boring to see one player dominate, and I think FlaSh has burnt out by now.
Yes i know... He used risky strategies that worked out but could just as easily have failed. He didn't rely on his skill to win these games. He relied on doing a risky desicion early on that paid of this time.
Who won is all that counts if you look at score. But if you look at power rank that is hardly everything.
On May 24 2010 15:30 StylishVODs wrote: I still can't believe it didn't end 3-0 for flash lol
Me neither =/
I can. I expected Flash to take the series with a score of 3-1 at the worst, but Flash got punished for playing like Flash.
Effort should be getting more credit for punishing Flash's risks, not criticism.
I don't know man... punnishing his risks? More like punnishing terrans weakness early game. He did it well but it's not really that hard.
The games he won were basically 2hatch massling and get a surround ealry game, then he scouted the proxy and then he did zergling allin that I see alot on iccup lower levels. Effective but not that hard to do.
Effort is good and can play a well managed game, don't get me wrong, but what he did to win those games doesn't exactly merrit that much credit or mentioning that he played amazingly or something like that.....
This and I still think Game 3 was more luck than anything else... Had Flash waited 2 more seconds for his medics it would have been a completely different game.
Whether you believe the "EffOrt lured Flash out by losing lings on purpose" stories or not, there was no way in hell EffOrt could have calculated that Flash would move out without his 2 medics instead of waiting 1 or 2 more secs. I'm not saying EffOrt played like crap in that game and only won by luck, but this was the game winning situation imho and it was based mainly on luck.
Flash chose not to wait. It had nothing to do with luck, and everything to do with Flash taking a risk by assuming that Effort did not have those lings and attempting to pressure him and getting punished for it.
EffOrt didn't take single straight up macro game off of Flash.
Maybe he would have if Flash hadn't made crucial mistakes in two of the last three games and gotten read like a book in the other.
I think people were too intimidated by Flash's late game. He always took these risks. It's just that Effort figured out his pattern of riskiness and beat him in a BO5. Now, more and more people will challenge flash early game and Flash will struggle to adapt for a bit. His 80+ % win rate will come down to low 70s or high 60s. This happens to every pro-gamer.
There's no way Flash can play safe against the Dong. He has to take smarter risks and hope that JD does not get his counters right.
Well this whole argument started with someone saying that people think wrongly that flash is better at management games than others. And you prove it by pointing to the series vs effort?
It just doesn't add up.
Yeah, flash got outplayed. But it has nothing to do with the argument.
By reading some of the posts I understand it as some of you think he's better at management because he cuts risky corners. Thats not why he has better macro/micro. Sure if he cuts corners he will get more money, thus more production facilities earlier on, but it has nothing to do with him being able to keep up the use of those buildings while attacking all over the place at the same time.
EffOrt didn't take single straight up macro game off of Flash.
Maybe he would have if Flash hadn't made crucial mistakes in two of the last three games and gotten read like a book in the other.
Flash got outplayed.
Well, he had really nice chance to do so in game 1 or 2, right? He even had a pretty good BO advantage in game 2 and still got completely crushed. He really looked pretty clueless that game.
But losing to Flash in a straight up game is not a shame...even losing to him if you have initial advantage could be considered pretty normal, that often it happens. Similarly, win is a win, Flash apparently understands it much better than most fans out there (just remember the shitstorm last OSL after he kicked out Jaedong). I'm sure he isn't blaming Effort in the slightest and neither do I.
On May 24 2010 11:43 Mortality wrote: Oh, make no mistake that mental strength is a huge part of it. Actually, I should amend my previous remark. I've commented before that mentally speaking, Jaedong has something even the bonjwas didn't have in terms of tenacity.
But make no mistake, Jaedong has been rethinking and adapting constantly. Zerg as a race entered a slump once Protoss players figured out how to mimic Bisu. Late 2007 through 2008 was not a good time to be a Zerg, really. Jaedong has been key in turning things around, pioneering builds and timings, showing how to use 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra to overcome Bisu, showing how to overcome Fantasy's valkyries.
Jaedong's ability to make these strategic adaptations on the spot is what makes his bo5 play so devastating. And a lot of that is his mental fortitude at work, allowing him to calmly dissect his opponents under pressure, but a lot of that is strategic genius.
Flash of course is not a terrible strategist, as the Flash build has shown us. And he's not a terrible tactician either (watch any one of his TvT's pretty much ever and you should be convinced that he's tactically strong). But Flash has a tendency to ride on his fundamentals alone. He's a rare player in this regard, however, he relies too heavily on fundamentals I think. It works. It works too well I think. For Jaedong it hasn't worked as well, so Jaedong continues to experiment and continues to change Zerg. Jaedong continues thinking about how to find that extra opening. And so Jaedong is better at it.
I don't really understand your argument (and I know I'm jumping right into your "I know all Flash fans will scream"). Flash has basically created every major TvZ/TvP innovation in the past 2 1/2 years with the exception of the Fantasy build. Flash tends to create builds that are "more guidelines than rules" which utilize his strong fundamentals (which I agree that he might over-rely on depending on the situation). He completely dictates the TvX metagame in all matchups, and has for a long time.
Jaedong is of course strategically very sound, as is any player of his caliber, and does a better job preparing for bo5's than anyone. Then there's his mental strength and all that jazz. So maybe the difference is strategic preparation for a bo5 as opposed to strategic preparation for a build that will be usable for the next 6 months. Jaedong is definitely better at the first. I think the second one is a wash.
Umm, me thinks you are underestimating the roles of Mind, ForGG and Fantasy, all of whom were briefly even with or even ahead of Flash in the past three years or so (although I guess Mind was a bit before Flash's first round of dominance).
Historically, Flash has twice arisen as the dominant Terran leader, once around Bacchus 2008 OSL and then once again more recently. I would point out that his notable contribution back in 08 was to TvP and I wouldn't regard him as a particularly major metagame influence at that time [EDIT: I meant to say "to TvZ" here, but my mind jumped ahead of my fingers; 08 was Flash's biggest contribution to TvP]. It wasn't until his more recent dominance that TvZ metagame was his ballpark really at all. It was only about a year ago that the power rank featured Kwanro with a pithy remark to the effect of: He beat Flash twice proving only that he's a Zerg. And at the time, fans would routinely scream on the message boards things to the effect of: God damn it flash, stick with the SK Terran, that's all you're good at!
Even with TvP, I'd hesitate to call what Flash is doing now "leading the TvP metagame." It's more like he understands PvT metagame better than anyone and then relies heavily on his super strong fundamentals.
On the subject of Flash vs Effort, before the regame, Effort's position seemed favorable. Not including that Effort is 4-2 against Flash in the past few weeks. Way too much hate on Effort going on and way too many excuses for Flash. He might be the better player, but he lost fair and square. Not the first time that's ever happened to a top gamer.
The question now becomes how he fairs against Jaedong.
Yeah well I'm just arguing for Flash having better game management than any other player at the moment and I don't think thats such an unreasonable statement but if some think so I'll agree to disagree.
On May 25 2010 07:22 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah well I'm just arguing for Flash having better game management than any other player at the moment and I don't think thats such an unreasonable statement but if some think so I'll agree to disagree.
His game management is the best. That's exactly in line with what I'm saying. But game management is only a part of skill. Flash's failures were much more tactical in nature. Or do you disagree with that?
No, I agree... I was mainly replying to Dracovolantus' post.
As to you last statement, I completely agree that he made tactical errors. But it's important to emphasize that he only made it during this Bo5. It not something he does often or is known for and it can easily get blown out of proportion when discussing about it this close after the OSL finals.
Because he had done literally nothing impressive leading into this month. And anything that was impressive was overshadowed by the rematch catastrophe.
On May 23 2010 07:29 Mortality wrote: TLnet is so fucking fickle. I'm never sure if I should be LOL'ing or nerd raging every time I read this kind of a thread.
I'll post my remarks in a spoiler because, well, most of this discussion going on right now should be spoilerized and I hope the admins to decide to give some warnings to some of you...
Right now, Flash is still the clear #1 on the next PR and unless JD massacres him, that will still be true. This is a mark against calling him bonjwa, but if he beats JD (especially if he can do so convincingly) we might be able to ignore that. After all, JD is the true rival, the true threat to Flash's coronation as bonjwa (I actually like Effort more than JD, but it's a fact that JD's stamp on Starcraft as a Zerg gamer is only matched by Yellow and Savior).
What Effort has done is secure a top 3 position, possibly even #2, and potentially, hypothetically, a #1 if both JD and Flash suddenly decide to play like utter shit (chance of happening? very very low). Anything else would be wrong.
and if JD convincingly crushes flash, i claim he should be the goddamn bonjwa. the fucker has been winning consistently with minislumps in proleague for like 2 years (i mean, the bonjwas of old lost proleague games here and there, savior lost a bunch even though i dont know if they were rigged or not)
if flash can be considered a bonjwa for dominating for basically 6 months, fucking jaedong should be crowned already if flash goes down to him YET AGAIN!
On May 24 2010 11:43 Mortality wrote: Oh, make no mistake that mental strength is a huge part of it. Actually, I should amend my previous remark. I've commented before that mentally speaking, Jaedong has something even the bonjwas didn't have in terms of tenacity.
But make no mistake, Jaedong has been rethinking and adapting constantly. Zerg as a race entered a slump once Protoss players figured out how to mimic Bisu. Late 2007 through 2008 was not a good time to be a Zerg, really. Jaedong has been key in turning things around, pioneering builds and timings, showing how to use 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra to overcome Bisu, showing how to overcome Fantasy's valkyries.
Jaedong's ability to make these strategic adaptations on the spot is what makes his bo5 play so devastating. And a lot of that is his mental fortitude at work, allowing him to calmly dissect his opponents under pressure, but a lot of that is strategic genius.
Flash of course is not a terrible strategist, as the Flash build has shown us. And he's not a terrible tactician either (watch any one of his TvT's pretty much ever and you should be convinced that he's tactically strong). But Flash has a tendency to ride on his fundamentals alone. He's a rare player in this regard, however, he relies too heavily on fundamentals I think. It works. It works too well I think. For Jaedong it hasn't worked as well, so Jaedong continues to experiment and continues to change Zerg. Jaedong continues thinking about how to find that extra opening. And so Jaedong is better at it.
I don't really understand your argument (and I know I'm jumping right into your "I know all Flash fans will scream"). Flash has basically created every major TvZ/TvP innovation in the past 2 1/2 years with the exception of the Fantasy build. Flash tends to create builds that are "more guidelines than rules" which utilize his strong fundamentals (which I agree that he might over-rely on depending on the situation). He completely dictates the TvX metagame in all matchups, and has for a long time.
Jaedong is of course strategically very sound, as is any player of his caliber, and does a better job preparing for bo5's than anyone. Then there's his mental strength and all that jazz. So maybe the difference is strategic preparation for a bo5 as opposed to strategic preparation for a build that will be usable for the next 6 months. Jaedong is definitely better at the first. I think the second one is a wash.
Umm, me thinks you are underestimating the roles of Mind, ForGG and Fantasy, all of whom were briefly even with or even ahead of Flash in the past three years or so (although I guess Mind was a bit before Flash's first round of dominance).
I agree that Mind/ForGG/Fantasy had moments when they were doing better in Starleagues than Flash, but that's different than what I'm saying.
When it comes to trends and matchup flow, Fantasy definitely had an impact in TvZ (and sort of TvP but not quite to the same degree. As for Mind ... sort of but not really, and ForGG no. I am a BIG Mind fan and watched nearly all of his games. He never dictated the metagame nearly to the degree that Flash had. He crafted extremely well-timed and solid timing attacks and similar builds that were often both map and position specific, which allowed him to be successful. But he never even had a style stable enough for him to win more than 50% of his games - one week he'd beat Jaedong on Blue Storm and the next he'd lose to some scrub. That was Mind in a nutshell for you back then.
Similarly, ForGG basically timing attacked until it ran out of juice. It was certainly effective for awhile (ForGG 5-0 Bisu, 3-0 Jaedong, 4-1 Flash at one point in history is one of the great wow records of all time). Flash even said in an interview that he has long been looking for a TvP style that was sustainable, as opposed to ForGG's timing attack style that is heavily metagame dependent (it can't work repeatedly if it becomes the standard).
I'm not trying to say Flash was head and shoulders above every Terran player for the entire past 2 years, because he wasn't. I'm as big of a Flash fan as there is and yet I posted numerous times that Fantasy was a better Starleague player back during Flash's individual league struggles.
But in terms of the evolution of Terran, Flash has really contributed an incredible amount throughout the course of his career. His ability to come up with new subtle (and STABLE) innovations time and time again is reflected in his consistency - at no point in the past 2 years was a Terran winning PL games more consistently and at a higher clip than Flash, and for good reason.
He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time.
I respect you and your opinion a lot, stylish, but this is a major flaw in logic and needs to be pointed out. The definition of a great SC player (beyond high APM and map awareness) is the player who can take the most successful calculated risks. Starcraft is, more than anything, a game about cutting corners successfully, and Flash is currently far-and-away the best player at doing this.
The concept of "Game Sense" is really a matter of knowing your opponent well enough to get away with stopping their advance/drop/expand/whatever with the absolute least amount of commitment at the last possible second. Outmacroing an opponent is largely a function of making the least possible troops early on so you can make the most dudes possible later. Timing in general is based entirely on the system of calculated risks that take place constantly, all the time, and result in minuscule windows for punishment.
Flash is able to cut corners and take enormous risks early in the game because he has exceptional micro and the ability to capitalize off any economic advantage over the course of a game. And Flash does cut corners, every game, similar to how every progamer does every game - he just has an extremely strong tendency to cut slightly larger corners in every single game because he knows how to survive timing windows so well and knows how to convert eco into a win better than anyone else.
What I'm saying is that taking risks all the time is EXACTLY how flash got this far - he just has an unbelievable understanding of the odds and his own abilities.
On May 24 2010 11:43 Mortality wrote: Oh, make no mistake that mental strength is a huge part of it. Actually, I should amend my previous remark. I've commented before that mentally speaking, Jaedong has something even the bonjwas didn't have in terms of tenacity.
But make no mistake, Jaedong has been rethinking and adapting constantly. Zerg as a race entered a slump once Protoss players figured out how to mimic Bisu. Late 2007 through 2008 was not a good time to be a Zerg, really. Jaedong has been key in turning things around, pioneering builds and timings, showing how to use 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra to overcome Bisu, showing how to overcome Fantasy's valkyries.
Jaedong's ability to make these strategic adaptations on the spot is what makes his bo5 play so devastating. And a lot of that is his mental fortitude at work, allowing him to calmly dissect his opponents under pressure, but a lot of that is strategic genius.
Flash of course is not a terrible strategist, as the Flash build has shown us. And he's not a terrible tactician either (watch any one of his TvT's pretty much ever and you should be convinced that he's tactically strong). But Flash has a tendency to ride on his fundamentals alone. He's a rare player in this regard, however, he relies too heavily on fundamentals I think. It works. It works too well I think. For Jaedong it hasn't worked as well, so Jaedong continues to experiment and continues to change Zerg. Jaedong continues thinking about how to find that extra opening. And so Jaedong is better at it.
I don't really understand your argument (and I know I'm jumping right into your "I know all Flash fans will scream"). Flash has basically created every major TvZ/TvP innovation in the past 2 1/2 years with the exception of the Fantasy build. Flash tends to create builds that are "more guidelines than rules" which utilize his strong fundamentals (which I agree that he might over-rely on depending on the situation). He completely dictates the TvX metagame in all matchups, and has for a long time.
Jaedong is of course strategically very sound, as is any player of his caliber, and does a better job preparing for bo5's than anyone. Then there's his mental strength and all that jazz. So maybe the difference is strategic preparation for a bo5 as opposed to strategic preparation for a build that will be usable for the next 6 months. Jaedong is definitely better at the first. I think the second one is a wash.
Umm, me thinks you are underestimating the roles of Mind, ForGG and Fantasy, all of whom were briefly even with or even ahead of Flash in the past three years or so (although I guess Mind was a bit before Flash's first round of dominance).
I agree that Mind/ForGG/Fantasy had moments when they were doing better in Starleagues than Flash, but that's different than what I'm saying.
When it comes to trends and matchup flow, Fantasy definitely had an impact in TvZ (and sort of TvP but not quite to the same degree. As for Mind ... sort of but not really, and ForGG no. I am a BIG Mind fan and watched nearly all of his games. He never dictated the metagame nearly to the degree that Flash had. He crafted extremely well-timed and solid timing attacks and similar builds that were often both map and position specific, which allowed him to be successful. But he never even had a style stable enough for him to win more than 50% of his games - one week he'd beat Jaedong on Blue Storm and the next he'd lose to some scrub. That was Mind in a nutshell for you back then.
Similarly, ForGG basically timing attacked until it ran out of juice. It was certainly effective for awhile (ForGG 5-0 Bisu, 3-0 Jaedong, 4-1 Flash at one point in history is one of the great wow records of all time). Flash even said in an interview that he has long been looking for a TvP style that was sustainable, as opposed to ForGG's timing attack style that is heavily metagame dependent (it can't work repeatedly if it becomes the standard).
I'm not trying to say Flash was head and shoulders above every Terran player for the entire past 2 years, because he wasn't. I'm as big of a Flash fan as there is and yet I posted numerous times that Fantasy was a better Starleague player back during Flash's individual league struggles.
But in terms of the evolution of Terran, Flash has really contributed an incredible amount throughout the course of his career. His ability to come up with new subtle (and STABLE) innovations time and time again is reflected in his consistency - at no point in the past 2 years was a Terran winning PL games more consistently and at a higher clip than Flash, and for good reason.
I'm certainly not trying to say that Flash has contributed nothing to the metagame, but those other Terrans, when they were dominant, led the metagame if only for a brief while. And to be clear (since I feel like I wasn't in my last post), I wasn't just pointing them out because they rivaled Flash at one point: I have never felt like Leta or Light made a significant metagame contribution even though Leta was a top proleague ace labeled one of the three "shining stars" of Terran (along with Flash and Fantasy) who had famous two port wraith TvZ (his wraiths are a bit like zero's queens: cool to watch, but never something that I felt made it into the playbook) and even though Light was our Winner's League MVP even above Flash. Counter to them, Mind, ForGG and Fantasy have all put their earmarks on Terran metagame over the years.
I must confess that I don't see this incredible contribution to the metagame. Maybe I'm unfairly comparing Flash to our past Terran bonjwas (the again Flash is a bonjwa hopeful), but there are even non-bonjwa Terran players I'd be inclined to point to as having equal or bigger metagame significance (most notably Midas). That's not meant as a mark against Flash as a gamer -- certainly right now, if nothing else, he's the most studied gamer -- but his strength is more like an uncopiable skill (hurray for made up words!). It's his supreme strength at the fundamentals. He can do things like defend against the mutas with fewer turrets made slightly later, losing slightly fewer marines, ultimately leading to a vastly stronger midgame. You can copy his build and you can copy his strategy (and I'll make a point of differentiating between the two), but you won't do it as well. That's Flash's strength as a gamer and that's why Flash fans are crazy in love with him.
As for Flash's consistency, I would argue something very different: Flash's proleague dominance is a product of his incredibly strong fundamentals. This is why even during the in between years going from Flash 1.0 (early 2008) to Flash 2.0 (late 2009 through today) where Flash's style wasn't as well defined or stable, Flash continued to win games at an extraordinary rate.
He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time.
I respect you and your opinion a lot, stylish, but this is a major flaw in logic and needs to be pointed out. The definition of a great SC player (beyond high APM and map awareness) is the player who can take the most successful calculated risks. Starcraft is, more than anything, a game about cutting corners successfully, and Flash is currently far-and-away the best player at doing this.
The concept of "Game Sense" is really a matter of knowing your opponent well enough to get away with stopping their advance/drop/expand/whatever with the absolute least amount of commitment at the last possible second. Outmacroing an opponent is largely a function of making the least possible troops early on so you can make the most dudes possible later. Timing in general is based entirely on the system of calculated risks that take place constantly, all the time, and result in minuscule windows for punishment.
Flash is able to cut corners and take enormous risks early in the game because he has exceptional micro and the ability to capitalize off any economic advantage over the course of a game. And Flash does cut corners, every game, similar to how every progamer does every game - he just has an extremely strong tendency to cut slightly larger corners in every single game because he knows how to survive timing windows so well and knows how to convert eco into a win better than anyone else.
What I'm saying is that taking risks all the time is EXACTLY how flash got this far - he just has an unbelievable understanding of the odds and his own abilities.
He wouldn't get to where he is simply by taking risks all the time.
I respect you and your opinion a lot, stylish, but this is a major flaw in logic and needs to be pointed out. The definition of a great SC player (beyond high APM and map awareness) is the player who can take the most successful calculated risks. Starcraft is, more than anything, a game about cutting corners successfully, and Flash is currently far-and-away the best player at doing this.
The concept of "Game Sense" is really a matter of knowing your opponent well enough to get away with stopping their advance/drop/expand/whatever with the absolute least amount of commitment at the last possible second. Outmacroing an opponent is largely a function of making the least possible troops early on so you can make the most dudes possible later. Timing in general is based entirely on the system of calculated risks that take place constantly, all the time, and result in minuscule windows for punishment.
Flash is able to cut corners and take enormous risks early in the game because he has exceptional micro and the ability to capitalize off any economic advantage over the course of a game. And Flash does cut corners, every game, similar to how every progamer does every game - he just has an extremely strong tendency to cut slightly larger corners in every single game because he knows how to survive timing windows so well and knows how to convert eco into a win better than anyone else.
What I'm saying is that taking risks all the time is EXACTLY how flash got this far - he just has an unbelievable understanding of the odds and his own abilities.
Yes I agree with most part of your post. I'm trying to point out that by cutting corners in a well calculated way lets you set up for a good position in lategame which Flash utalizes almost every game.
However the reason why he is able to keep up his macro almost without flaw (constantly during a full game) and at the same time do all the actions he does can not simply be explained with cutting corners, wouldn't you agree?
His descisionmaking (moves throughout the game and "cutting corners"), and his raw mechanic skill combined, is the reason why he's playing starcraft at his current level.
On May 25 2010 17:23 InFdude wrote: If I hadn't watched the OSL I'd say Flash won the OSL and the MSL based on the comments .I hear Flash has the best management ? Effort reached 560 APM at one point.
somehow baby always gets panned in the power rank thread, and yet the live report threads of his games are always "i can't believe he's doing that" "where are all these units coming from" "omg cho gosu apm" "the new boxer" etc.
On May 25 2010 17:23 InFdude wrote: If I hadn't watched the OSL I'd say Flash won the OSL and the MSL based on the comments .I hear Flash has the best management ? Effort reached 560 APM at one point.
On May 25 2010 17:23 InFdude wrote: If I hadn't watched the OSL I'd say Flash won the OSL and the MSL based on the comments .I hear Flash has the best management ? Effort reached 560 APM at one point.
ManagementApm
That said, EffOrt's management, (especially his hive management) is at least as good as, if not better than Jaedong's, and probably second only to Flash.
Also, I said it before, but fantasy should be on this next ranking. Check out his last month, it's quietly been very strong. He's beaten some good players without playing TvP, and lost once to the presumed top three on the next PR.
On May 25 2010 17:23 InFdude wrote: If I hadn't watched the OSL I'd say Flash won the OSL and the MSL based on the comments .I hear Flash has the best management ? Effort reached 560 APM at one point.
ManagementApm
That said, EffOrt's management, (especially his hive management) is at least as good as, if not better than Jaedong's, and probably second only to Flash.
On May 26 2010 01:25 o[twist] wrote: effort demonstrated good management against flash - he MANAGED to throw away a huge number of ultralisks in their PL game
I think you're forgetting that while EffOrt was holding Flash's army in check at the bottom left, he was also dropping Flash's main and natural, and also taking every goddamn expansion on the map.
In fact, that game is a fantastic example of how solid EffOrt's management is; fighting two ongoing battles, expanding, and keeping his resources low on 12 base... against Flash, who had considerably less to control. When you say something like "throwing away ultralisks" you're assuming that A) Zerg has a better option against Flash's set up than ultra drops, and B) EffOrt couldn't afford to make a ton of ultras, both of which are untrue.
But JD and EffOrt are both excellent, but you can see it in their styles; Jaedong loves to finish games in the midgame with aggression and micro, whereas EffOrt's strengths lie more in his hive management. EffOrt's OSL run was actually amazing because EffOrt completely changed up his strategy in ZvT and ZvP to a more Jaedong/Kwanro style.
But watch some of EffOrt's recent games, his multi-task and game management are astounding.
On May 26 2010 01:25 o[twist] wrote: effort demonstrated good management against flash - he MANAGED to throw away a huge number of ultralisks in their PL game
I think you're forgetting that while EffOrt was holding Flash's army in check at the bottom left, he was also dropping Flash's main and natural, and also taking every goddamn expansion on the map.
In fact, that game is a fantastic example of how solid EffOrt's management is; fighting two ongoing battles, expanding, and keeping his resources low on 12 base... against Flash, who had considerably less to control. When you say something like "throwing away ultralisks" you're assuming that A) Zerg has a better option against Flash's set up than ultra drops, and B) EffOrt couldn't afford to make a ton of ultras, both of which are untrue.
But JD and EffOrt are both excellent, but you can see it in their styles; Jaedong loves to finish games in the midgame with aggression and micro, whereas EffOrt's strengths lie more in his hive management. EffOrt's OSL run was actually amazing because EffOrt completely changed up his strategy in ZvT and ZvP to a more Jaedong/Kwanro style.
But watch some of EffOrt's recent games, his multi-task and game management are astounding.
Effort accumulated an enormous advantage early game in his match against FlaSh in pl; it's not that hard to play well with a crushing lead and a strong contain. And more importantly, thats the only game in recent memory I can think of that showcases good management from Effort. On the other hand, games 1 and 2 of the OSL are a great counter example to your point.
His army management in game 1 was awful, he let himself get horribly out of position and then threw the game away wavering between sacking his third and blowing his whole army eventually managing to do both. Then there was the fiasco of game two where Effort took a substantial advantage early game and then blew his lead away with poor poor management mid-game bringing the game back to equal. And then late game, Effort for a moment stabilized things when his first deflier came out and then fell apart. He didn't nydus to his third which literally has zero routes to reinforce; he couldn't handle his lings or FlaSh's drops and missed every opportunity to scourage vessels. FlaSh didn't even have to walk his army into one of Efforts bases, Effort was outplayed so hard he gg'd before FlaSh delivered the death blow.
To summarize, his late game was junk and you can say "oh but it's FlaSh and I already said his management was number one ect. ect.". You can look good against FlaSh late game and still lose, action vs FlaSh is the quintessential example. It's not astounding that Effort won by midgame aggression and micro. it's the only way he could win. I've seen all of Efforts ZvT's, not a single one (post massive streak) where I think to myself "wow his management is good, it might even be better than Jaedongs". It's not
A year ago I might have believed that Effort's management was better than Jaedong's, back when Jaedong's ZvT was almost exclusively 2 hatch muta openings, often as an all-in, and Effort was reviving three hatch muta which had fallen by the wayside.
Effort's management does rival Flash's and Jaedong's as well. I've never seen someone so all over the map before. That said, Flash and Jaedong have more consistent management. Effort when playing his best looks every bit as good as Jaedong. Effort at his worst is not pretty.
As for the next PR: 1-2. Flash and Jaedong 3. Effort (and a surprisingly close third) ----BIG GAP---- 4-5. Kal and Baby 6-8. Midas, Fantasy, Calm 9-10. Leta and Snow
Maybes: Iris (strong start to the month), Hyuk (since when has a Zerg been leading SKT1?), Stats (a reliable #2 man, helping KT stand at the top of the rankings), Action (a bit inconsistent but good god can this kid play when he wants to), Shine (only defeat in R4 has been to Jaedong, but I'd like to see him face a stronger roster)
Special kudos to Reach and Anytime for their recent wins over good players. Can't exactly say they are playing PR worthy at the moment though...
On May 26 2010 01:25 o[twist] wrote: effort demonstrated good management against flash - he MANAGED to throw away a huge number of ultralisks in their PL game
I think you're forgetting that while EffOrt was holding Flash's army in check at the bottom left, he was also dropping Flash's main and natural, and also taking every goddamn expansion on the map.
In fact, that game is a fantastic example of how solid EffOrt's management is; fighting two ongoing battles, expanding, and keeping his resources low on 12 base... against Flash, who had considerably less to control. When you say something like "throwing away ultralisks" you're assuming that A) Zerg has a better option against Flash's set up than ultra drops, and B) EffOrt couldn't afford to make a ton of ultras, both of which are untrue.
But JD and EffOrt are both excellent, but you can see it in their styles; Jaedong loves to finish games in the midgame with aggression and micro, whereas EffOrt's strengths lie more in his hive management. EffOrt's OSL run was actually amazing because EffOrt completely changed up his strategy in ZvT and ZvP to a more Jaedong/Kwanro style.
But watch some of EffOrt's recent games, his multi-task and game management are astounding.
Effort accumulated an enormous advantage early game in his match against FlaSh in pl; it's not that hard to play well with a crushing lead and a strong contain. And more importantly, thats the only game in recent memory I can think of that showcases good management from Effort. On the other hand, games 1 and 2 of the OSL are a great counter example to your point.
His army management in game 1 was awful, he let himself get horribly out of position and then threw the game away wavering between sacking his third and blowing his whole army eventually managing to do both. Then there was the fiasco of game two where Effort took a substantial advantage early game and then blew his lead away with poor poor management mid-game bringing the game back to equal. And then late game, Effort for a moment stabilized things when his first deflier came out and then fell apart. He didn't nydus to his third which literally has zero routes to reinforce; he couldn't handle his lings or FlaSh's drops and missed every opportunity to scourage vessels. FlaSh didn't even have to walk his army into one of Efforts bases, Effort was outplayed so hard he gg'd before FlaSh delivered the death blow.
To summarize, his late game was junk and you can say "oh but it's FlaSh and I already said his management was number one ect. ect.". You can look good against FlaSh late game and still lose, action vs FlaSh is the quintessential example. It's not astounding that Effort won by midgame aggression and micro. it's the only way he could win. I've seen all of Efforts ZvT's, not a single one (post massive streak) where I think to myself "wow his management is good, it might even be better than Jaedongs". It's not
So wait, you're saying that EffOrt's management dropped a notch after his massive streak, when he went into a slump. Well yeah, when he slumped, he slumped—I'll agree with you there.
But game two of the OSL, it's easy to admit; EffOrt did get out multi-tasked badly in that game. It can happen, just as how Calm out-micro'd Jaedong in the third game of their MSL semi-finals series, even though Jaedong's micro is on the whole better than what he displayed that game.
But your analysis about game one is off the mark, EffOrt was very very behind when he tried to break Flash's metal ball at 12. Not to mention, EffOrt was absolutely killed by Flash's upgrade timing, which was just brilliant. He really had little choice, he had to break Flash's push, and he had no time in which to do it. That doesn't have a lot to do with management.
Take a look at his games from last summer, and take a look at his recent games against fantasy, Kal, and even Action.
On May 26 2010 02:36 Severedevil wrote: A year ago I might have believed that Effort's management was better than Jaedong's, back when Jaedong's ZvT was almost exclusively 2 hatch muta openings, often as an all-in, and Effort was reviving three hatch muta which had fallen by the wayside.
This is 2010.
The year in which EffOrt has described himself as better, and won the OSL.
On May 26 2010 02:43 Mortality wrote: Effort's management does rival Flash's and Jaedong's as well. I've never seen someone so all over the map before. That said, Flash and Jaedong have more consistent management. Effort when playing his best looks every bit as good as Jaedong. Effort at his worst is not pretty.
As for the next PR: 1-2. Flash and Jaedong 3. Effort (and a surprisingly close third) ----BIG GAP---- 4-5. Kal and Baby
agreed but I think Kal should definitely be 4th and Baby 5th. Winner of MSL finals should take #1.
On May 26 2010 02:25 n.DieJokes wrote:To summarize, his late game was junk and you can say "oh but it's FlaSh and I already said his management was number one ect. ect.". You can look good against FlaSh late game and still lose, action vs FlaSh is the quintessential example. It's not astounding that Effort won by midgame aggression and micro. it's the only way he could win. I've seen all of Efforts ZvT's, not a single one (post massive streak) where I think to myself "wow his management is good, it might even be better than Jaedongs". It's not
On May 26 2010 01:25 o[twist] wrote: effort demonstrated good management against flash - he MANAGED to throw away a huge number of ultralisks in their PL game
I think you're forgetting that while EffOrt was holding Flash's army in check at the bottom left, he was also dropping Flash's main and natural, and also taking every goddamn expansion on the map.
In fact, that game is a fantastic example of how solid EffOrt's management is; fighting two ongoing battles, expanding, and keeping his resources low on 12 base... against Flash, who had considerably less to control. When you say something like "throwing away ultralisks" you're assuming that A) Zerg has a better option against Flash's set up than ultra drops, and B) EffOrt couldn't afford to make a ton of ultras, both of which are untrue.
But JD and EffOrt are both excellent, but you can see it in their styles; Jaedong loves to finish games in the midgame with aggression and micro, whereas EffOrt's strengths lie more in his hive management. EffOrt's OSL run was actually amazing because EffOrt completely changed up his strategy in ZvT and ZvP to a more Jaedong/Kwanro style.
But watch some of EffOrt's recent games, his multi-task and game management are astounding.
Effort accumulated an enormous advantage early game in his match against FlaSh in pl; it's not that hard to play well with a crushing lead and a strong contain. And more importantly, thats the only game in recent memory I can think of that showcases good management from Effort. On the other hand, games 1 and 2 of the OSL are a great counter example to your point.
His army management in game 1 was awful, he let himself get horribly out of position and then threw the game away wavering between sacking his third and blowing his whole army eventually managing to do both. Then there was the fiasco of game two where Effort took a substantial advantage early game and then blew his lead away with poor poor management mid-game bringing the game back to equal. And then late game, Effort for a moment stabilized things when his first deflier came out and then fell apart. He didn't nydus to his third which literally has zero routes to reinforce; he couldn't handle his lings or FlaSh's drops and missed every opportunity to scourage vessels. FlaSh didn't even have to walk his army into one of Efforts bases, Effort was outplayed so hard he gg'd before FlaSh delivered the death blow.
To summarize, his late game was junk and you can say "oh but it's FlaSh and I already said his management was number one ect. ect.". You can look good against FlaSh late game and still lose, action vs FlaSh is the quintessential example. It's not astounding that Effort won by midgame aggression and micro. it's the only way he could win. I've seen all of Efforts ZvT's, not a single one (post massive streak) where I think to myself "wow his management is good, it might even be better than Jaedongs". It's not
So wait, you're saying that EffOrt's management dropped a notch after his massive streak, when he went into a slump. Well yeah, when he slumped, he slumped—I'll agree with you there.
But game two of the OSL, it's easy to admit; EffOrt did get out multi-tasked badly in that game. It can happen, just as how Calm out-micro'd Jaedong in the third game of their MSL semi-finals series, even though Jaedong's micro is on the whole better than what he displayed that game.
But your analysis about game one is off the mark, EffOrt was very very behind when he tried to break Flash's metal ball at 12. Not to mention, EffOrt was absolutely killed by Flash's upgrade timing, which was just brilliant. He really had little choice, he had to break Flash's push, and he had no time in which to do it. That doesn't have a lot to do with management.
Take a look at his games from last summer, and take a look at his recent games against fantasy, Kal, and even Action.
On May 26 2010 02:36 Severedevil wrote: A year ago I might have believed that Effort's management was better than Jaedong's, back when Jaedong's ZvT was almost exclusively 2 hatch muta openings, often as an all-in, and Effort was reviving three hatch muta which had fallen by the wayside.
This is 2010.
The year in which EffOrt has described himself as better, and won the OSL.
No, I'm saying his management never came back.... even if you disagree with my assessment of Game 1 it doesn't matter. There aren't any games to point to and say "this is why Efforts management is better than JD's". I've seen Effort vs. Fantasy and it was a great game, but not to prove your point. It was a scrappy, awesome, back and forth ZvT but if that's the extent of Efforts prowess it's not enough. If Effort had simply squeezed Fantasy to death after he took his fourth and the guardians were in Fantasy natural, maybe I could agree but instead he lost his fourth and the two duked it out for another fifteen minutes without anyone pulling ahead. All it proved was that Effort was good again and I'm not saying he's not good, I'm saying he's not the monster from last summer.
Action and Kal? I'm not sure how his ZvZ proves your point and I'll tell you up front that I will never concede that Efforts ZvP management is better
And really the analogy with Calm and Jaedong doesn't work. We know now in retrospect that Calm's micro is worse than Jaedongs because he's played many many games to prove that it is. Effort hasn't been back long enough to throw out perfect example of his management like game 2, its not my fault his sample size is so small. He has two pretty good games against FlaSh and Fantasy and a terrible game against FlaSh, you can have faith that his management is better than Jaedongs but good luck convincing everyone else.
Last little thing, Boxer and Savior and Nada and Midas all think they're better now than ever before and they're all right- whoopie do, everyone gets better. Only time will tell if he's really better relatively.
On May 26 2010 02:25 n.DieJokes wrote:To summarize, his late game was junk and you can say "oh but it's FlaSh and I already said his management was number one ect. ect.". You can look good against FlaSh late game and still lose, action vs FlaSh is the quintessential example. It's not astounding that Effort won by midgame aggression and micro. it's the only way he could win. I've seen all of Efforts ZvT's, not a single one (post massive streak) where I think to myself "wow his management is good, it might even be better than Jaedongs". It's not
But game two of the OSL, it's easy to admit; EffOrt did get out multi-tasked badly in that game. It can happen, just as how Calm out-micro'd Jaedong in the third game of their MSL semi-finals series, even though Jaedong's micro is on the whole better than what he displayed that game.
I like how Effort is Jaedong while Flash is Calm in this analogy. It's so utterly wrong that I actually giggled.
On May 26 2010 01:25 o[twist] wrote: effort demonstrated good management against flash - he MANAGED to throw away a huge number of ultralisks in their PL game
I think you're forgetting that while EffOrt was holding Flash's army in check at the bottom left, he was also dropping Flash's main and natural, and also taking every goddamn expansion on the map.
In fact, that game is a fantastic example of how solid EffOrt's management is; fighting two ongoing battles, expanding, and keeping his resources low on 12 base... against Flash, who had considerably less to control. When you say something like "throwing away ultralisks" you're assuming that A) Zerg has a better option against Flash's set up than ultra drops, and B) EffOrt couldn't afford to make a ton of ultras, both of which are untrue.
But JD and EffOrt are both excellent, but you can see it in their styles; Jaedong loves to finish games in the midgame with aggression and micro, whereas EffOrt's strengths lie more in his hive management. EffOrt's OSL run was actually amazing because EffOrt completely changed up his strategy in ZvT and ZvP to a more Jaedong/Kwanro style.
But watch some of EffOrt's recent games, his multi-task and game management are astounding.
Effort accumulated an enormous advantage early game in his match against FlaSh in pl; it's not that hard to play well with a crushing lead and a strong contain. And more importantly, thats the only game in recent memory I can think of that showcases good management from Effort. On the other hand, games 1 and 2 of the OSL are a great counter example to your point.
His army management in game 1 was awful, he let himself get horribly out of position and then threw the game away wavering between sacking his third and blowing his whole army eventually managing to do both. Then there was the fiasco of game two where Effort took a substantial advantage early game and then blew his lead away with poor poor management mid-game bringing the game back to equal. And then late game, Effort for a moment stabilized things when his first deflier came out and then fell apart. He didn't nydus to his third which literally has zero routes to reinforce; he couldn't handle his lings or FlaSh's drops and missed every opportunity to scourage vessels. FlaSh didn't even have to walk his army into one of Efforts bases, Effort was outplayed so hard he gg'd before FlaSh delivered the death blow.
To summarize, his late game was junk and you can say "oh but it's FlaSh and I already said his management was number one ect. ect.". You can look good against FlaSh late game and still lose, action vs FlaSh is the quintessential example. It's not astounding that Effort won by midgame aggression and micro. it's the only way he could win. I've seen all of Efforts ZvT's, not a single one (post massive streak) where I think to myself "wow his management is good, it might even be better than Jaedongs". It's not
Saying "his lategame was junk because he threw away ultras" is absolutely ridiculous. Effort had near-infinite resources and total map control - he simply needed to starve flash out and keep him from pushing out. Streaming and dropping ultras nonstop did that in a way that was virtually impossible to push back against and since Effort was guaranteed to win the game if the state didn't change dramatically it was the correct and safe play.
Yes, he could have probably busted in with Defilers/Plague/Mutas/drops combod and such, but the point is there was no need to and nothing was going to go wrong if he just kept making and attacking with ultra/ling drops. It was the boring and inevitable play, and while he certainly lost a million ultras he prevented flash from doing ANYTHING other than defend against ultras.
Effort's management is inconsistently brilliant, as is his general multitask. If Effort constantly played up to his potential he is a repeat threat for sure, but for now he still has lots of bad games in addition to his exceptional games.
And just to throw this in there, making 2 simultaneous finals is more impressive than winning 1. Flash should be consensus #1 regardless of who wins MSL unless he literally loses a hand or something.
to nobody's surprise, i'm going to go ahead and troll for putting baby 4th ahead of kal; i think he's played better starcraft - he certainly has a better record
But game two of the OSL, it's easy to admit; EffOrt did get out multi-tasked badly in that game. It can happen, just as how Calm out-micro'd Jaedong in the third game of their MSL semi-finals series, even though Jaedong's micro is on the whole better than what he displayed that game.
I like how Effort is Jaedong while Flash is Calm in this analogy. It's so utterly wrong that I actually giggled.
It's true except that was the best that I could do. No one else has out-multitasked EffOrt in a late-game especially recently.
Look, (NDJ) I think what it really comes down to is that I'm looking at his play and thinking; "EffOrt is completely out of his slump" where as if you're not as convinced that EffOrt is back in his summer form, then I can completely see why you'd be skeptical of his abilities. I admit that in general, my argument is that he has recovered his insane multi-task and management of last year (and I think he may have acquired the flexibility to end ZvT's early, and ZvP's with hydras).
Which means that we'll just have to see. Give me, however that EffOrt in form has the management that I say he has, even if you dispute whether or not he's in form.
EDIT:
On May 26 2010 06:07 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm not skeptical of Effort, I'm skeptical of your analogy of game management where Effort is > Flash.
I know I'm a raging Flash fanboy, but that's just wrooooonnnnnnggg.
As I said, there really isn't a perfect analogy for it, EffOrt hasn't been beaten in a late game recently except by Flash. His real problem was actually that he wasn't getting to the late game at all.
But I addressed the second part of that to n.DieJokes, I knew what you were arguing, T3.
I'm actually really sad that Effort's late game management hasn't fully revived. Hopefully his win over Flash will give him even more confidence and propel him back to that level.
Back in 2009 Effort's late game ZvT was simply fantastic, and a total treat to watch. Perhaps it's Flash's late game skills that prevented Effort from trying to do that in the OSL (doesn't matter what you do when you win) but either way I'd like to see a return.
I remember one game, can't remember if it was at the end of 2009 or beginning of 2010 when Effort just WORKED Hiya on Tornado, in spite of it being closest possible positions Hiya didn't even come close to pushing out until far too late because Effort just controlled that game stalling perfectly until Hive. That's the player I'd like to see again!
On May 26 2010 01:25 o[twist] wrote: effort demonstrated good management against flash - he MANAGED to throw away a huge number of ultralisks in their PL game
I think you're forgetting that while EffOrt was holding Flash's army in check at the bottom left, he was also dropping Flash's main and natural, and also taking every goddamn expansion on the map.
In fact, that game is a fantastic example of how solid EffOrt's management is; fighting two ongoing battles, expanding, and keeping his resources low on 12 base... against Flash, who had considerably less to control. When you say something like "throwing away ultralisks" you're assuming that A) Zerg has a better option against Flash's set up than ultra drops, and B) EffOrt couldn't afford to make a ton of ultras, both of which are untrue.
But JD and EffOrt are both excellent, but you can see it in their styles; Jaedong loves to finish games in the midgame with aggression and micro, whereas EffOrt's strengths lie more in his hive management. EffOrt's OSL run was actually amazing because EffOrt completely changed up his strategy in ZvT and ZvP to a more Jaedong/Kwanro style.
But watch some of EffOrt's recent games, his multi-task and game management are astounding.
Effort accumulated an enormous advantage early game in his match against FlaSh in pl; it's not that hard to play well with a crushing lead and a strong contain. And more importantly, thats the only game in recent memory I can think of that showcases good management from Effort. On the other hand, games 1 and 2 of the OSL are a great counter example to your point.
His army management in game 1 was awful, he let himself get horribly out of position and then threw the game away wavering between sacking his third and blowing his whole army eventually managing to do both. Then there was the fiasco of game two where Effort took a substantial advantage early game and then blew his lead away with poor poor management mid-game bringing the game back to equal. And then late game, Effort for a moment stabilized things when his first deflier came out and then fell apart. He didn't nydus to his third which literally has zero routes to reinforce; he couldn't handle his lings or FlaSh's drops and missed every opportunity to scourage vessels. FlaSh didn't even have to walk his army into one of Efforts bases, Effort was outplayed so hard he gg'd before FlaSh delivered the death blow.
To summarize, his late game was junk and you can say "oh but it's FlaSh and I already said his management was number one ect. ect.". You can look good against FlaSh late game and still lose, action vs FlaSh is the quintessential example. It's not astounding that Effort won by midgame aggression and micro. it's the only way he could win. I've seen all of Efforts ZvT's, not a single one (post massive streak) where I think to myself "wow his management is good, it might even be better than Jaedongs". It's not
Saying "his lategame was junk because he threw away ultras" is absolutely ridiculous. Effort had near-infinite resources and total map control - he simply needed to starve flash out and keep him from pushing out. Streaming and dropping ultras nonstop did that in a way that was virtually impossible to push back against and since Effort was guaranteed to win the game if the state didn't change dramatically it was the correct and safe play.
Yes, he could have probably busted in with Defilers/Plague/Mutas/drops combod and such, but the point is there was no need to and nothing was going to go wrong if he just kept making and attacking with ultra/ling drops. It was the boring and inevitable play, and while he certainly lost a million ultras he prevented flash from doing ANYTHING other than defend against ultras.
Effort's management is inconsistently brilliant, as is his general multitask. If Effort constantly played up to his potential he is a repeat threat for sure, but for now he still has lots of bad games in addition to his exceptional games.
And just to throw this in there, making 2 simultaneous finals is more impressive than winning 1. Flash should be consensus #1 regardless of who wins MSL unless he literally loses a hand or something.
I didn't say his late game was junk because he threw away ultras, your blending my post and some other guys together and reaching odd conclusions. If you read my post again you'll see I said Efforts late game in his second OSL set against FlaSh was junk and then I gave a bunch of reasons none of which are throwing away ultras. In the game your referring too I said Effort played well but was already at such an advantage that's it's not really his own brilliance at management that won him the game.
On May 26 2010 06:12 darktreb wrote: I'm actually really sad that Effort's late game management hasn't fully revived. Hopefully his win over Flash will give him even more confidence and propel him back to that level.
Back in 2009 Effort's late game ZvT was simply fantastic, and a total treat to watch. Perhaps it's Flash's late game skills that prevented Effort from trying to do that in the OSL (doesn't matter what you do when you win) but either way I'd like to see a return.
I remember one game, can't remember if it was at the end of 2009 or beginning of 2010 when Effort just WORKED Hiya on Tornado, in spite of it being closest possible positions Hiya didn't even come close to pushing out until far too late because Effort just controlled that game stalling perfectly until Hive. That's the player I'd like to see again!
I think part of the issue is that game management among top gamers has gotten better across the board over the past year.
I'd make a point out of saying that Flash, for all his supreme multitasking skills, relies very heavily on forcing his opponent to engage him in large army clashes, rather than doing shit all over the map, and I'd be quick to point out that Jaedong, whose original ZvT style seemed to be to wear the Terran down on superior mechanics alone, now plays a more strategic ZvT than ever and yet still, his ZvT win percentage in his last 20 games (all his games post NATE MSL finals) is lower than his career ZvT win percentage entering EVER OSL back in 2007.
Effort has a much more chaotic late game than either Flash or Jaedong. He really tries to do shit everywhere. What's amazing is how well it works. I won't go so far as to say that he has better game management than those two, but on his good days he's every bit as good. He lacks consistency. And I think part of it is that Flash and Jaedong have historically been better at arranging the battles they fight. No matter how fast you are, your hands will feel slow if your opponent is the one choosing the battles.
EffOrt on the PR is a must. No excuses guys! I agree with everyone who says "winner of MSL gets #1 because Flash has lost alot more matches than expected this month. Effort deserves high this month because of his spectacular play that everyone doubted. 9-2 is unbelievably convincing with 2 loses coming from the most dominant player atm. BaBy didnt play much this month but was reaaaaally consistent but his teammate Midas wasnt doing as well. Course, if you exclude his loses from JD, you get a 2-1 score but, where was he all this time? why didnt Fox play him? he would be lowered imo. Im also wondering, where the fuck was Sea? his only win was vs Mantoss in a hard fought game. MBC is dead in R4. Free ate HiyA and got stomped and destroyed by Flash. after the Ro8 victory over hiya, he has yet to win a game. Yea he lost to Leta and TigerToss but rethink about it. Leta has terribad TvP... His PvT confidence was probably crushed after losing to Flash in humiliation. So about HiyA, what happened to him also? he seemed to have rolled over vs everyone he played except for HyuN. Also, MVP has had a disappointing month so hes out. This month wasnt that great for most on the PR. Even Great failed to show good results. So who did do well this month? + Show Spoiler +
Actually I think Baby might have a legitimate argument for #4. He didn't make a semifinals and people haven't been paying much attention to him after he beat Jaedong, but look how GOOD he is:
plexa's PRs have been very problematic and this month was no exception no effort not even on CNBC is very strange indeed.. effort has been 4th for two months when riptide was doing the PR. When plexa took over (last 4-5 months), effort is not mentioned once. Midas, although I love him, is also ranked way too high etc etc
Why are people still complaining about Effort's lack of placement LAST month? As good as he's playing this month, OSL champ and all (and he does deserve top 3 at least), he really did play like absolute ass in April.
On May 26 2010 15:09 phosphorylation wrote: plexa's PRs have been very problematic and this month was no exception no effort not even on CNBC is very strange indeed.. effort has been 4th for two months when riptide was doing the PR. When plexa took over (last 4-5 months), effort is not mentioned once. Midas, although I love him, is also ranked way too high etc etc
Effort suddenly, out of nowhere, started winning games after his re-re-re-re-re match vs Go.Go and Shine. Before that he absolutely sucked.
But game two of the OSL, it's easy to admit; EffOrt did get out multi-tasked badly in that game. It can happen, just as how Calm out-micro'd Jaedong in the third game of their MSL semi-finals series, even though Jaedong's micro is on the whole better than what he displayed that game.
I like how Effort is Jaedong while Flash is Calm in this analogy. It's so utterly wrong that I actually giggled.
It's true except that was the best that I could do. No one else has out-multitasked EffOrt in a late-game especially recently.
Look, (NDJ) I think what it really comes down to is that I'm looking at his play and thinking; "EffOrt is completely out of his slump" where as if you're not as convinced that EffOrt is back in his summer form, then I can completely see why you'd be skeptical of his abilities. I admit that in general, my argument is that he has recovered his insane multi-task and management of last year (and I think he may have acquired the flexibility to end ZvT's early, and ZvP's with hydras).
Which means that we'll just have to see. Give me, however that EffOrt in form has the management that I say he has, even if you dispute whether or not he's in form.
On May 26 2010 06:07 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm not skeptical of Effort, I'm skeptical of your analogy of game management where Effort is > Flash.
I know I'm a raging Flash fanboy, but that's just wrooooonnnnnnggg.
As I said, there really isn't a perfect analogy for it, EffOrt hasn't been beaten in a late game recently except by Flash. His real problem was actually that he wasn't getting to the late game at all.
But I addressed the second part of that to n.DieJokes, I knew what you were arguing, T3.
Effort, in form, doesn't have better anything than Flash. Same goes for Jaedong, honestly. Effort was absolutely astonishing at one point in his career, but he's never shown anything resembling proof that he's better at any particular skill than Flash or Jaedong. Not in making builds, not in managing small and big army confrontations, not in macro, not in micro. He is an astounding player but there's no reason to say he, at his best, is better than the two best players to ever play the game.
On May 26 2010 15 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 26 2010 15 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:41 ndralcasid wrote: Why are people still complaining about Effort's lack of placement LAST month? As good as he's playing this month, OSL champ and all (and he does deserve top 3 at least), he really did play like absolute ass in April.
6-game winning streak at the end of the month, when you have has-beens like Midas in PR, and just awful players like Hiya, MVP, Great?
On May 26 2010 15 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 26 2010 15 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:41 ndralcasid wrote: Why are people still complaining about Effort's lack of placement LAST month? As good as he's playing this month, OSL champ and all (and he does deserve top 3 at least), he really did play like absolute ass in April.
6-game winning streak at the end of the month, when you have has-beens like Midas in PR, and just awful players like Hiya, MVP, Great?
No, the PR just was bad.
On May 26 2010 21 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 26 2010 21 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:
But game two of the OSL, it's easy to admit; EffOrt did get out multi-tasked badly in that game. It can happen, just as how Calm out-micro'd Jaedong in the third game of their MSL semi-finals series, even though Jaedong's micro is on the whole better than what he displayed that game.
I like how Effort is Jaedong while Flash is Calm in this analogy. It's so utterly wrong that I actually giggled.
It's true except that was the best that I could do. No one else has out-multitasked EffOrt in a late-game especially recently.
Look, (NDJ) I think what it really comes down to is that I'm looking at his play and thinking; "EffOrt is completely out of his slump" where as if you're not as convinced that EffOrt is back in his summer form, then I can completely see why you'd be skeptical of his abilities. I admit that in general, my argument is that he has recovered his insane multi-task and management of last year (and I think he may have acquired the flexibility to end ZvT's early, and ZvP's with hydras).
Which means that we'll just have to see. Give me, however that EffOrt in form has the management that I say he has, even if you dispute whether or not he's in form.
EDIT:
On May 26 2010 06:07 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm not skeptical of Effort, I'm skeptical of your analogy of game management where Effort is > Flash.
I know I'm a raging Flash fanboy, but that's just wrooooonnnnnnggg.
As I said, there really isn't a perfect analogy for it, EffOrt hasn't been beaten in a late game recently except by Flash. His real problem was actually that he wasn't getting to the late game at all.
But I addressed the second part of that to n.DieJokes, I knew what you were arguing, T3.
Effort, in form, doesn't have better anything than Flash. Same goes for Jaedong, honestly. Effort was absolutely astonishing at one point in his career, but he's never shown anything resembling proof that he's better at any particular skill than Flash or Jaedong. Not in making builds, not in managing small and big army confrontations, not in macro, not in micro. He is an astounding player but there's no reason to say he, at his best, is better than the two best players to ever play the game.
Effort has more APM than either of those... and I'd say he's better than Flash in the early stages of the game although T and Z are difficult to compare. I think JD > Effort though, although Effort still has higher APM and I guess his lategame management/macro might be slightly better.
JD's the best player ever though, so it's kind of difficult to compare.
EDIT: well crap it posted it in a seperate post, I'm sorry.
On May 26 2010 22 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 26 2010 22 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 26 2010 22 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:01 Shikyo wrote:
On May 26 2010 15 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 26 2010 15 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:41 ndralcasid wrote: Why are people still complaining about Effort's lack of placement LAST month? As good as he's playing this month, OSL champ and all (and he does deserve top 3 at least), he really did play like absolute ass in April.
6-game winning streak at the end of the month, when you have has-beens like Midas in PR, and just awful players like Hiya, MVP, Great?
On May 26 2010 21 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 26 2010 21 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On May 26 2010 06:00 tree.hugger wrote:
On May 26 2010 04:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On May 26 2010 03:18 tree.hugger wrote:
But game two of the OSL, it's easy to admit; EffOrt did get out multi-tasked badly in that game. It can happen, just as how Calm out-micro'd Jaedong in the third game of their MSL semi-finals series, even though Jaedong's micro is on the whole better than what he displayed that game.
I like how Effort is Jaedong while Flash is Calm in this analogy. It's so utterly wrong that I actually giggled.
It's true except that was the best that I could do. No one else has out-multitasked EffOrt in a late-game especially recently.
Look, (NDJ) I think what it really comes down to is that I'm looking at his play and thinking; "EffOrt is completely out of his slump" where as if you're not as convinced that EffOrt is back in his summer form, then I can completely see why you'd be skeptical of his abilities. I admit that in general, my argument is that he has recovered his insane multi-task and management of last year (and I think he may have acquired the flexibility to end ZvT's early, and ZvP's with hydras).
Which means that we'll just have to see. Give me, however that EffOrt in form has the management that I say he has, even if you dispute whether or not he's in form.
EDIT:
On May 26 2010 06:07 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm not skeptical of Effort, I'm skeptical of your analogy of game management where Effort is > Flash.
I know I'm a raging Flash fanboy, but that's just wrooooonnnnnnggg.
As I said, there really isn't a perfect analogy for it, EffOrt hasn't been beaten in a late game recently except by Flash. His real problem was actually that he wasn't getting to the late game at all.
But I addressed the second part of that to n.DieJokes, I knew what you were arguing, T3.
Effort, in form, doesn't have better anything than Flash. Same goes for Jaedong, honestly. Effort was absolutely astonishing at one point in his career, but he's never shown anything resembling proof that he's better at any particular skill than Flash or Jaedong. Not in making builds, not in managing small and big army confrontations, not in macro, not in micro. He is an astounding player but there's no reason to say he, at his best, is better than the two best players to ever play the game.
Effort has more APM than either of those... and I'd say he's better than Flash in the early stages of the game although T and Z are difficult to compare. I think JD > Effort though, although Effort still has higher APM and I guess his lategame management/macro might be slightly better.
JD's the best player ever though, so it's kind of difficult to compare.
EDIT: well crap it posted it in a seperate post, I'm sorry.
APM doesn't mean that much, although it's certainly a difference between EffOrt and Movie.
Again, I'm not arguing for EffOrt being better than either Flash or Jaedong. I'm simply saying that I think his multi-task (jn form) is on-par or better than Jaedong's. I think Flash's multi-task is the best in the world right now.
And you can disagree of course, and I'm not sure we can technically prove it either way. It's a subjective observation, after all.
Though someone earlier pointed out a stylistic difference which might explain my point better; EffOrt's late game consists of a huge series of smaller attacks all over the map, while Flash and Jaedong are more interested in setting up a huge battle that they will win.
I'm not that familiar with Effort's style and qualities, but what I remember from his period of domination a couple of months back is that he was insanely good at sending small groups zerglings all over the map and somehow making every one of them effective.
On May 27 2010 00:19 okum wrote: I'm not that familiar with Effort's style and qualities, but what I remember from his period of domination a couple of months back is that he was insanely good at sending small groups zerglings all over the map and somehow making every one of them effective.
Check JD vs Fantasy Game 2 of the last OSL that JD won. He did the same thing and made every one of them count. Effort is not better than JD at all. It's just that JD prefers to end games as soon as possible so he prefers bigger army clashes than Effort does. Effort tries to wear opponents down with constant harass. JD can do it too, but he can manage large armies better than anyone in the world except maybe Flash, so he prefers it.
As much as I love CJ's new big hope, Effort. I have to agree with everyone that Effort is in every way inferior to Jaedong. But this doesn't mean anything bad. Jaedong is the most complete player to ever play the game.
On May 27 2010 03:42 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how you only agree with the Jaedong half of my post.
Don't take me wrong. In terms of micro, macro, management and multitasking Flash surely is on par with Jaedong. But JD's edge in bo5s just makes him more complete.
On May 26 2010 07:44 Mortality wrote: Effort has a much more chaotic late game than either Flash or Jaedong. He really tries to do shit everywhere. What's amazing is how well it works. I won't go so far as to say that he has better game management than those two, but on his good days he's every bit as good. He lacks consistency. And I think part of it is that Flash and Jaedong have historically been better at arranging the battles they fight. No matter how fast you are, your hands will feel slow if your opponent is the one choosing the battles.
So, if EffOrt turns this into consistent success after knocking off Flash...
...does this make EffOrt the new Bisu? Huge multitask, occasional terrible PL games, winning out over a legend for the first gold?
Effort came along a bit early in Flash's dominance for him to be Bisu. He's in the exact same position Mind was after beating Bisu: A relative newcomer who shocked everyone by beating a dual title holder who was on his way to becoming the new Bonjwa. He might turn into the antithesis of Mind.
On May 27 2010 03:42 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how you only agree with the Jaedong half of my post.
Don't take me wrong. In terms of micro, macro, management and multitasking Flash surely is on par with Jaedong. But JD's edge in bo5s just makes him more complete.
First of all, let's wait and see what their next Bo5 brings, shall we?
Furthermore saying that Jaedong was a more "complete" player is quite wrong imho and basically opposes everything that is usually said about the two. Jaedong is a very good player no doubt, but he's a Bo5 specialist, that's where he really shines. That is also the reason for his many SL Titles. He easily has the skills to reach the Bo5 stages of a starleague and once he reaches those, he's very hard to stop. However he is quite prone to drop a game or even a Bo3 to scrubs every now and then and he periodically has mini-slumps, hence the lower win percentage and ELO peaks than Flash.
Flash on the other hand is the more "complete" player, if you can call it that. He barely ever loses to scrubs or "lesser players", he absolutely dominates in every matchup, has insane win percentages, broke just about every ELO record, and made it to dual SL Finals TWICE and back to back, all at the age of 17(!). And imho he also has slightly better micro/macro/multitasking/management and impromptu decision making and reactions than JD.
Please do not misunderstand this post. I'm not saying either one of them is the better player. + Show Spoiler +
although I obviously think it's Flash
I just think calling Jaedong the more "complete" player is as wrong as you can be, but of course that's my personal definition of a "complete" player.
On May 27 2010 06:47 Mooncat wrote: Please do not misunderstand this post. I'm not saying either one of them is the better player. + Show Spoiler +
although I obviously think it's Flash
what.
Oh... Considering EffOrt is involved in this discussion too, I should probably clarify this. Jaedong and Flash are both better players than EffOrt, but between Jaedong and Flash it can't really be decided who's the "better" player overall imo.
What's with this plexa hate over Effort not being mentioned in the last PR? Anyone who claims to have foreseen Effort being a top player again even just two months ago is absolutely full of shit and it's hard to recognize a player as having returned to PR worthy form after playing so bad for so long.
I haven't caught up with all the comments, but leaving effort off of the PR last month was 100% justified. Need I play you the night of horrific regames that occurred? Effort did not look anywhere near as good as he does now back then. People need to remember that this is a MONTHLY ranking, not a weekly ranking
On May 28 2010 10:32 Plexa wrote: I'm looking forward to it as well, for once we haven't had a month of people failing!!!!
It's true, it feels like the last few months have been a handful of players performing consistently, and then the remainder of the PR spots are just flavor of the month types who we know from prior experience aren't there to stay.
Plexa might mean not to include Leta. When I posted my thoughts on rankings a few pages back, I thought Leta should be around 9 or 10, the bottom of the ranking. There are a number of people just off the ranking who also had strong performances and I could easily see whoever is in the 9-10 range being replaced by one of those.
This blog makes me wonder if JD gets #1 even if he defeats Flash in the MSL.
And Effort will most likely end up below Kal.
Effort below Flash is fine and expected, I don't know if even you think Effort is better than Flash. Below Kal? Effort dominated Kal in that semi-final, it was very clear who the better player was.
This blog makes me wonder if JD gets #1 even if he defeats Flash in the MSL.
And Effort will most likely end up below Kal.
If Jaedong plays like he has been doing lately and defeats Flash he would probably edge the #1 position off him. If he 5 pools Flash 3 times.... different story.
When I look back at the PR's one day and I see someone who made dual finals again after being so dominant not being nr1 I will only be satisfied with it if the #1 player clearly showed that he was the better player.
I guess thats the price you have to price you have to pay for winning too much. It's so impossibly hard to win both leagues at the same time and if you lose at the finals the opponent gets all the credit even if he's just in a single league.
This blog makes me wonder if JD gets #1 even if he defeats Flash in the MSL.
And Effort will most likely end up below Kal.
If Jaedong plays like he has been doing lately and defeats Flash he would probably edge the #1 position off him. If he 5 pools Flash 3 times.... different story.
Dude!!! If he 5 pooled Flash thrice, I guarantee that he'll lose twice. JD is good. He's damn good. But he's not thaaaaaaaaaaaaat good. Besides, it's not random scrub he's playing.
This blog makes me wonder if JD gets #1 even if he defeats Flash in the MSL.
And Effort will most likely end up below Kal.
If Jaedong plays like he has been doing lately and defeats Flash he would probably edge the #1 position off him. If he 5 pools Flash 3 times.... different story.
So if Flash were to lose to 5pool three times he would retain #1?
This blog makes me wonder if JD gets #1 even if he defeats Flash in the MSL.
And Effort will most likely end up below Kal.
If Jaedong plays like he has been doing lately and defeats Flash he would probably edge the #1 position off him. If he 5 pools Flash 3 times.... different story.
So if Flash were to lose to 5pool three times he would retain #1?
:|
imo if we get another finals like the OSL, where Flash beats Jaedong in late game but Jaedong wins 3 short games, then Flash should stay #1.
This blog makes me wonder if JD gets #1 even if he defeats Flash in the MSL.
And Effort will most likely end up below Kal.
If Jaedong plays like he has been doing lately and defeats Flash he would probably edge the #1 position off him. If he 5 pools Flash 3 times.... different story.
So if Flash were to lose to 5pool three times he would retain #1?
:|
imo if we get another finals like the OSL, where Flash beats Jaedong in late game but Jaedong wins 3 short games, then Flash should stay #1.
So if Jaedong exploits a well-known, recently exposed hole in Flash's game, then Flash should stay #1.
I agree though, let's see the games first. But the likelihood of a controversial PR is high.
On May 29 2010 01:30 StylishVODs wrote: When I look back at the PR's one day and I see someone who made dual finals again after being so dominant not being nr1 I will only be satisfied with it if the #1 player clearly showed that he was the better player.
I guess thats the price you have to price you have to pay for winning too much. It's so impossibly hard to win both leagues at the same time and if you lose at the finals the opponent gets all the credit even if he's just in a single league.
Basically this. If Jaedong doesn't completely dominate the finals and somehow gets #1 vs someone who made dual finals twice in a row while being nearly invincible in Proleague I'm not really sure how I'd react.
On May 29 2010 01:30 StylishVODs wrote: When I look back at the PR's one day and I see someone who made dual finals again after being so dominant not being nr1 I will only be satisfied with it if the #1 player clearly showed that he was the better player.
I guess thats the price you have to price you have to pay for winning too much. It's so impossibly hard to win both leagues at the same time and if you lose at the finals the opponent gets all the credit even if he's just in a single league.
Basically this. If Jaedong doesn't completely dominate the finals and somehow gets #1 vs someone who made dual finals twice in a row while being nearly invincible in Proleague I'm not really sure how I'd react.
If Flash was truly the #1 player he would not go 0-2 in the finals. Yes he has been dominant and easily made it to both finals, but he should not be rewarded for losing the two biggest games of the season. And it is not as if Jaedong and Effort are only playing decent starcraft. Both of them went on 12 game win streaks.
I believe Flash would tell you himself he considers Jaedong the better player if he goes 0-2 in the MSL finals.
The reason why Jaedong could be considered as #1 if he wins the MSL finals is that:
1. It will mean Jaedong is the wall Flash cannot surpass. This would be Jaedong's 4th victory in a bo5 over Flash. 2. Jaedong's recent record would feature a stronger win percentage. Someone pointed out that if Jaedong won by any margin, he'd have a better record in his last 30 games. 3. Jaedong's loss to Baby is a loss Flash didn't take, but you don't want to hang it too hard over Jaedong's head.
Of course, a close victory of 3-2 on behalf of Jaedong would arguably still leave the ball in Flash's court as the stronger overall gamer, considering how heavily put to the test Flash's game has been recently. But it's hard to say. I think at that point, many would want to crown Jaedong bonjwa, whereas the Flash camp would be unable to make that claim... but probably unsupportive of Jaedong's claim either.
In fact, unless this final is lopsided, the B-word might be a bit contentious.
The bar has been set high for bonjwa. Flash was close with two finals appearances, but couldn't seal the deal. Jaedong is nowhere near that. An MSL won't be enough for him.
On May 29 2010 15:28 J1.au wrote: The bar has been set high for bonjwa. Flash was close with two finals appearances, but couldn't seal the deal. Jaedong is nowhere near that. An MSL won't be enough for him.
Yeah the bar is set too high seriously. In the foreign forums (TL) anyway. Flash couldn't convince people because his dominant time has only been a year so far, and jaedong can't convince people because he's got the golds spread out over a too long period. Since he's only into one league all the time he can't claim "total dominance".
The bar seems like, you have to get to back to back dual finals and win 4 golds and then keep it up for another 4-5years with 90% winratio in PL!!!
Imo both players deserve much better but I don't really care...
this makes the loss in the osl finals seem so... unnecessary. i guess he wanted to keep his best builds to himself but if he had deployed just one of them, it might have been enough
I mean, Jaedong's reactions were essentially the exact same as EffOrt's. All of this "EffOrt can't defeat Flash in a macro game" garbage has been exposed as ridiculous. Flash doesn't play macro games fair. He grabs a huge advantage. Sometimes he outplays you in the late game (Game 2), and sometimes he get's outplayed (SPL Set 1). But he wins in the midgame with ridiculous econ play. The best counter in starcraft is to go kill your opponent. And EffOrt did that, and Jaedong couldn't.
Man I wasn't bitter one bit when Effort ling rushed Flash to death but here you guys come, angry as piss that Flash 14cc'd on two big macro maps, and 14cc'd when he scouted 12hatch.
On May 29 2010 18:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Man I wasn't bitter one bit when Effort ling rushed Flash to death but here you guys come, angry as piss that Flash 14cc'd on two big macro maps, and 14cc'd when he scouted 12hatch.
There's no need to pretend that Flash is some kind of victim. That was a dominant performance, and a total mind-game victory.
On May 29 2010 18:43 johanes wrote: Ok, there is only word that should be in this month's PR description for flash. It starts with B.
Except that Flash lost in the OSL. He got wrecked in the last three games.
I'm not even anti-cheese but so many people are shouting that 14cc is cheese and blah blah when it's the most sensical build on the first two maps and he just scouted for it on the third.
On May 29 2010 18:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Man I wasn't bitter one bit when Effort ling rushed Flash to death but here you guys come, angry as piss that Flash 14cc'd on two big macro maps, and 14cc'd when he scouted 12hatch.
Yes, you are a saint. Flash fans in general where pretty pissed though, likewise Jaedong fans in general are probably pretty pissed while some take it for what it is, Flash winning because he outplayed and outsmarted Jaedong. Don't try to make it look like one side is better than the other
On May 29 2010 18:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Man I wasn't bitter one bit when Effort ling rushed Flash to death but here you guys come, angry as piss that Flash 14cc'd on two big macro maps, and 14cc'd when he scouted 12hatch.
There's no need to pretend that Flash is some kind of victim. That was a dominant performance, and a total mind-game victory.
i'm not quite sure there's a good justification for putting effort above jaedong. i don't have much doubt that jaedong is even right now the better all-around player. but i can see the argument and i don't think the point is worth hashing out two days before power rank comes out and two hours after the msl finals started.
On May 29 2010 18:49 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm not even anti-cheese but so many people are shouting that 14cc is cheese and blah blah when it's the most sensical build on the first two maps and he just scouted for it on the third.
I think he scouted 12hat on 2nd game too before starting the cc. I'm not 100% about that but I think he did
On May 29 2010 18:49 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm not even anti-cheese but so many people are shouting that 14cc is cheese and blah blah when it's the most sensical build on the first two maps and he just scouted for it on the third.
I think he scouted 12hat on 2nd game too before starting the cc. I'm not 100% about that but I think he did
Nope, scouting distances are too long. He did scout the three hatch before pool after he 14cc'd which led to his followup timing push.
On May 29 2010 18:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Man I wasn't bitter one bit when Effort ling rushed Flash to death but here you guys come, angry as piss that Flash 14cc'd on two big macro maps, and 14cc'd when he scouted 12hatch.
There's no need to pretend that Flash is some kind of victim. That was a dominant performance, and a total mind-game victory.
what is it with cj players and talking about people who aren't even involved in a match right after the match? flash plays pure, we end up talking about movie - flash plays jaedong, we end up talking about effort -
On May 29 2010 18:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Man I wasn't bitter one bit when Effort ling rushed Flash to death but here you guys come, angry as piss that Flash 14cc'd on two big macro maps, and 14cc'd when he scouted 12hatch.
There's no need to pretend that Flash is some kind of victim. That was a dominant performance, and a total mind-game victory.
On May 29 2010 18:43 johanes wrote: Ok, there is only word that should be in this month's PR description for flash. It starts with B.
Except that Flash lost in the OSL. He got wrecked in the last three games.
Yeah. Out of the five most recent tournaments (2 OSL, 2 MSL, Winner's League), Flash only has 3 golds and 2 silvers. What a crappy record.
No need to get your knickers in a twist or anything. I'm not saying Flash isn't the best BW player in the world right now, but we're too damn enthusiastic to declare anyone a bonjwa nowadays. Just this fall people were calling Jaedong a bonjwa.
I know we're all excited, and it really was some gorgeous play, but let's not bring out the coronation just a week after Flash's most devastating defeat.
On May 29 2010 19:01 o[twist] wrote: what is it with cj players and talking about people who aren't even involved in a match right after the match? flash plays pure, we end up talking about movie - flash plays jaedong, we end up talking about effort -
These two finals have been more linked than any finals in recent memory.
On May 29 2010 18:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Man I wasn't bitter one bit when Effort ling rushed Flash to death but here you guys come, angry as piss that Flash 14cc'd on two big macro maps, and 14cc'd when he scouted 12hatch.
There's no need to pretend that Flash is some kind of victim. That was a dominant performance, and a total mind-game victory.
On May 29 2010 18:43 johanes wrote: Ok, there is only word that should be in this month's PR description for flash. It starts with B.
Except that Flash lost in the OSL. He got wrecked in the last three games.
Yeah. Out of the five most recent tournaments (2 OSL, 2 MSL, Winner's League), Flash only has 3 golds and 2 silvers. What a crappy record.
No need to get your knickers in a twist or anything. I'm not saying Flash isn't the best BW player in the world right now, but we're too damn enthusiastic to declare anyone a bonjwa nowadays. Just this fall people were calling Jaedong a bonjwa.
I know we're all excited, and it really was some gorgeous play, but let's not bring out the coronation just a week after Flash's most devastating defeat.
most devastating defeat would be if he got kicked out in preliminaries, but he lost 3:2 in finals. I think it's the LEAST devastating loss.
lol at effort being flash's "most devastating defeat" - ALL his previous Bo5s against jaedong were worse, and often showcased complete domination rather than the discovery of a hole in flash's preparation.
On May 29 2010 18:44 TwoToneTerran wrote: Man I wasn't bitter one bit when Effort ling rushed Flash to death but here you guys come, angry as piss that Flash 14cc'd on two big macro maps, and 14cc'd when he scouted 12hatch.
There's no need to pretend that Flash is some kind of victim. That was a dominant performance, and a total mind-game victory.
On May 29 2010 18:43 johanes wrote: Ok, there is only word that should be in this month's PR description for flash. It starts with B.
Except that Flash lost in the OSL. He got wrecked in the last three games.
Yeah. Out of the five most recent tournaments (2 OSL, 2 MSL, Winner's League), Flash only has 3 golds and 2 silvers. What a crappy record.
No need to get your knickers in a twist or anything. I'm not saying Flash isn't the best BW player in the world right now, but we're too damn enthusiastic to declare anyone a bonjwa nowadays. Just this fall people were calling Jaedong a bonjwa.
I know we're all excited, and it really was some gorgeous play, but let's not bring out the coronation just a week after Flash's most devastating defeat.
most devastating defeat would be if he got kicked out in preliminaries, but he lost 3:2 in finals. I think it's the LEAST devastating loss.
It was the biggest stage, with the most on the line, and Flash lost a lead.
On May 29 2010 19:06 TwoToneTerran wrote: I amend my previous statements, by the way. Effort is much better at beating 14CC than Jaedong.
I don't think you can make this kind of determination after just a few games. Flash's wall-ins after his fast expansions in this series were much more diligent than the one he showed in game 5 of the OSL.
I don't think any zerg can beat an unpunished 14cc from Flash.
Jaedong can beat 14 cc with 3 hatch before pool if he doesn't suicide lurks into MNM without ling support. Seriously the dumbest thing I've ever seen Jaedong do that he did deliberately.
On May 29 2010 19:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong can beat 14 cc with 3 hatch before pool if he doesn't suicide lurks into MNM without ling support. Seriously the dumbest thing I've ever seen Jaedong do that he did deliberately.
I don't know why you keep going on about the Lurker suicide. The game was over by then, there was no way he was saving the 3rd Hatch and on Odd Eye of all maps there's no chance Z wins there.
His mistake (like you said in another thread) was Droning too hard and expecting to come out ahead on the Muta/Scourge/Ling vs MnM/Valk exchange, thus not having anything to stall for the third any longer.
On May 29 2010 19:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong can beat 14 cc with 3 hatch before pool if he doesn't suicide lurks into MNM without ling support. Seriously the dumbest thing I've ever seen Jaedong do that he did deliberately.
I don't know why you keep going on about the Lurker suicide. The game was over by then, there was no way he was saving the 3rd Hatch and on Odd Eye of all maps there's no chance Z wins there.
His mistake (like you said in another thread) was Droning too hard and expecting to come out ahead on the Muta/Scourge/Ling vs MnM/Valk exchange, thus not having anything to stall for the third any longer.
I'm parroting Day9, and I made the more detailed post in the actual thread, but it's not like I was wrong. Jaedong was in a perfectly fine position in both game 2 and 3, Flash just played better.
On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes.
Yes, thank you. Terran basically continuously makes Marines as soon as the first Barracks goes down with only a small gap perhaps for the CC at 17 if you go standard 1 Rax FE. So compare that to getting the Rax at 15 (instead of 11) and it's a huge difference, because the economic advantage of 14cc doesn't let you get a second Rax any faster (1 Rax FE is perfectly capable of supporting the same build up to this point only with slightly more Marines) and that's pretty much the extent of the timing that we're talking about here. After that it really starts to kick in (actually it already kicks in before but not in the discrete ways necessary to get more Marines).
On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes.
And how does a delayed rax not delay range upgrade? And after a successful 14cc you surely have the economy to get an extra rax compared to rax cc, so I dont really get it how you can have less marines...
On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes.
And how does a delayed rax not delay range upgrade? And after a successful 14cc you surely have the economy to get an extra rax compared to rax cc, so I dont really get it how you can have less marines...
No one instantly throws down an acad after rax. It'll come out at a similar time to 1rax CC. You're still getting a rax and CC before acad, just in a different order.
You have less marines for a time but obviously produce more later. 2hatch muta always comes in before range is upgraded, and it will come in before your increase production from a good econ kicks in. That's why it raped 14cc previously.
On May 29 2010 19:12 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong can beat 14 cc with 3 hatch before pool if he doesn't suicide lurks into MNM without ling support. Seriously the dumbest thing I've ever seen Jaedong do that he did deliberately.
I don't know why you keep going on about the Lurker suicide. The game was over by then, there was no way he was saving the 3rd Hatch and on Odd Eye of all maps there's no chance Z wins there.
His mistake (like you said in another thread) was Droning too hard and expecting to come out ahead on the Muta/Scourge/Ling vs MnM/Valk exchange, thus not having anything to stall for the third any longer.
I'm parroting Day9, and I made the more detailed post in the actual thread, but it's not like I was wrong. Jaedong was in a perfectly fine position in both game 2 and 3, Flash just played better.
I agree, I'm just saying that in a vacuum, the Lurker suicide wasn't a big deal. Jaedong blew his good position through the overall situation that led up to that point.
On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes.
And how does a delayed rax not delay range upgrade? And after a successful 14cc you surely have the economy to get an extra rax compared to rax cc, so I dont really get it how you can have less marines...
Isn't there a voice in your head that says "given that I've clearly never played 14cc or 1rax FE seriously maybe I should stop throwing out random guesses about how it works"?
I haven't played terran since 2006 and I comprehend the builds just fine. Him not playing those shouldn't affect his judgement so much as him not understanding Terran builds in the first place.
I'm also a zerg player and don't think there's anything wrong with what Flash did. :> I don't get why people are so upset that Flash won the way he did when it was basically him playing Jaedong like a fiddle from start to finish. It happens, Jaedong's crushed Flash three times previously, people gotta chillll.
On May 29 2010 19:27 TwoToneTerran wrote: I haven't played terran since 2006 and I comprehend the builds just fine. Him not playing those shouldn't affect his judgement so much as him not understanding Terran builds in the first place.
I mean it's the same thing. If someone doesn't know that T doesn't throw down Academy immediately after Rax in any standard FE build then why even start talking about the details.
On May 29 2010 19:27 TwoToneTerran wrote: I haven't played terran since 2006 and I comprehend the builds just fine. Him not playing those shouldn't affect his judgement so much as him not understanding Terran builds in the first place.
I'm also a zerg player and don't think there's anything wrong with what Flash did. :> I don't get why people are so upset that Flash won the way he did when it was basically him playing Jaedong like a fiddle from start to finish. It happens, Jaedong's crushed Flash three times previously, people gotta chillll.
We JD fans are way calmer than Flash fans after Effort's win. All Flash fans spammed are "Effort is bad" "Effort didnt deserve it". Tell Flash fans to chilll?
On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes.
And how does a delayed rax not delay range upgrade? And after a successful 14cc you surely have the economy to get an extra rax compared to rax cc, so I dont really get it how you can have less marines...
Isn't there a voice in your head that says "given that I've clearly never played 14cc or 1rax FE seriously maybe I should stop throwing out random guesses about how it works"?
lol, TTT explained me why 14cc loses to 2hatch muta, all you said is "you are wrong"
It just makes me womit to say this, but JD really doesn't deserve #2 this month after the horrible horrible finals. Imo the real question should be flash or Effort as #1. Flash got a good record, but head to head is really important too.
It doesn't neccessarily lose, obviously. You still can't fly your mutas over the marines that are there and if it's a long distance map with hard to harass natural, for instance, than 2 hatch muta isn't the best course of action.
PS: I'm telling everyone to chill. I'm a pretty rabid fanboy but I'm not condoning their attitudes, even if I mildly agree.
On May 29 2010 18:49 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm not even anti-cheese but so many people are shouting that 14cc is cheese and blah blah when it's the most sensical build on the first two maps and he just scouted for it on the third.
I think he scouted 12hat on 2nd game too before starting the cc. I'm not 100% about that but I think he did
Nope, scouting distances are too long. He did scout the three hatch before pool after he 14cc'd which led to his followup timing push.
Actually, he did scout before putting down the CC. That was the whole reason for scouting that fast.
On May 29 2010 19:31 SuperArc wrote: lol, TTT explained me why 14cc loses to 2hatch muta, all you said is "you are wrong"
Are you fucking serious? My first post on this page (page 40) detailed exactly why 14cc ends up with less Marines than 1 Rax FE.
And TTT didn't say 14cc loses (just a retarded invention in your head), you made that strawman leap. Time and time again you prove that you're the worst poster on TL.
On May 29 2010 19:31 SuperArc wrote: lol, TTT explained me why 14cc loses to 2hatch muta, all you said is "you are wrong"
Are you fucking serious? My first post on this page (page 40) detailed exactly why 14cc ends up with less Marines than 1 Rax FE.
And TTT didn't say 14cc loses (just a retarded invention in your head), you made that strawman leap. Time and time again you prove that you're the worst poster on TL.
On May 29 2010 19:20 TwoToneTerran wrote: It delays Rax, pure and simple. Less marines makes you prone to mutalisk rushes.
And how does a delayed rax not delay range upgrade? And after a successful 14cc you surely have the economy to get an extra rax compared to rax cc, so I dont really get it how you can have less marines...
No one instantly throws down an acad after rax. It'll come out at a similar time to 1rax CC. You're still getting a rax and CC before acad, just in a different order.
You have less marines for a time but obviously produce more later. 2hatch muta always comes in before range is upgraded, and it will come in before your increase production from a good econ kicks in. That's why it raped 14cc previously.
Flash prepared for that.
I don't know, but rapes usually indicates losing. I guess it's my my lack of knowledge of the English language. Time and time again people prove they are not reading what I am posting? :p
I don't know how 14cc fares nowadays against 2hatch muta since it hasnt happened for ages.
This series show what happen if Flash get the advantegous build order. The amazing thing about it was that it wasn't based on luck. So he'll be able to keep doing this.
I'll give credit to jaedong for showing some awesome buildorders, even though they didn't work this time. He didn't go for "dirty zerg style" simply because he couldn't and I bet he relies on his skills more than others in lategame.
Even though it was abit sad that it ended 3-0, both players had prepared really good builds and wanted the games to be amazing, trying to set up for a good position in lategame. Both players seem to play for their fans which is really awesome.
I would rank JD #2 next PR despite this. Simply because the info I got from the games of flash vs effort tells me that Effort could have done nothing to stop flash in this series.
With early scout and good timing, 14CC will easily survive 2hatch muta. Because you will put up an Ebay and with all the extra money you can spam turrets.
Watch how flash deviated his followup after the 14CC from what information he gathered with his initial SCV. 2hatch -> fast EBay and vessel+marines. 3hatch -> Fast valkyrie and marines. 3hatch no gas -> fast 2 fac into deff mode.
On May 29 2010 18:49 TwoToneTerran wrote: I'm not even anti-cheese but so many people are shouting that 14cc is cheese and blah blah when it's the most sensical build on the first two maps and he just scouted for it on the third.
I think he scouted 12hat on 2nd game too before starting the cc. I'm not 100% about that but I think he did
Nope, scouting distances are too long. He did scout the three hatch before pool after he 14cc'd which led to his followup timing push.
As I said earlier, this is abit wrong. The interview explained it better I guess. Flash only played blind 14CC the first set.
On May 29 2010 19:12 okum wrote: The games should've been reversed
Flash 3-0'ing Effort and Jaedong 3-2'ing Flash.
To which I'll ask; why?
***
After both finals, I think the PR will look like this:
#1: Flash - Flash is the best player in brood war. You can't really dispute that.
That said, he's beatable, and has shown that more than ever this month, posting the most losses he's had in a month in a long time. But that's alright, because I think we're seeing Flash maturing and getting better as he hits a few speed-bumps. You could see the kind of determination and preparation that we see in the very best to play the game. Flash is learning what it's going to take for him to win in the future, with everyone gunning for him, and preparing special strategies. Look, Flash plays a very abusive economic style, and he does it better than anyone else. When you let him get away with it, he's unbeatable. But if you show the same kind of preparation and skill that he does, he's "but a progamer". But he's still damn hard to beat.
#2: Jaedong - The MSL finals was something else, but it should not be allowed to obscure a fantastic month in which Jaedong looked nearly unbeatable. His ZvT has left no doubt that it is the best in BW, 14cc nonwithstanding. His ZvZ destruction of Calm was near-perfect. And with only a total demolition of Flying, it'd be hard to argue that his phenomenal ZvP has slipped.
Yes Jaedong was beaten in three games by Flash in the MSL finals. He made a few micro mistakes, but overall gave entertaining games against an opponent who had everything going his way. There's this ridiculous notion that excellent players can just randomly play poorly on any given day. While it's true that performance would naturally fluctuate a little bit, it's ridiculous to say that a player played "badly" during a finals, and that there must've been something wrong. Players lose for a reason. Flash had all the answers.
But there needs to be some level of consistency in the PR, and if anyone is entitled to a little leeway, it's Jaedong. That Jaedong will come back from this loss in better form is a given. That Jaedong will contend in both leagues next season is a given. That Jaedong will continue to prevent other teams from sweeping Hwaseung in proleague is a given. Jaedong is still very very good.
#3: EffOrt - This month, EffOrt occupied the position that he had begun to build for himself last summer in the proleague finals, as among BW's elite. Nonetheless, a lot of people have said some remarkably silly things about EffOrt recently. That's a shame, because EffOrt's OSL victory had all the hallmarks of a future champion. He showed grit and determination against a superior opponent. He did not break under pressure. He adapted in-game. And he harnessed the little bit of luck that came his way and ran with it.
In fact, what many people seemed to have missed about EffOrt's OSL run was how out of character it actually was. EffOrt is the management zerg to Jaedong's aggression. EffOrt races for a hive, and throws up crazy expansions. He attacks with small groups all over the map. He wears down his opponents. Which is why it was so interesting to see EffOrt break out a devastating early/mid-game to complement his superb late game multitasking ability. That's partially a product of CJ's coaching, but it's also a testament to EffOrt's skill as a player. And above all else, this should be alarming to EffOrt's future opponents. Giving this kid main stage experience, and expanding his deadly arsenal of tools can only mean more summer domination from the messiahlisk. The legend of the tiebreaker lives on.
#4: Kal - It was a disappointing month for Kal, despite more solid performances on paper. He was rolled by a suddenly in-form EffOrt, while displaying his trademark skittish PvZ. For a player who has repeatedly been deep in starleagues, to constantly lose to excellent zerg players must be frustrating.
Thankfully for Kal, he's got pro-league as his own personal punching bag. He went 7-2 for a typically surging STX, making up for his two losses with subsequent ace match PvZ victories. His harass is excellent, and it perfectly supports his excellent macro and game sense. He's BW's best protoss at the moment, and he's the ace of a playoff bound team. He's still playing excellent starcraft.
#5: BaBy - So much for the possibility of a slump after a hard end of April. BaBy has responded excellently after a May 1st loss to Guemchi, with wins over Leta, Bisu, Hyun, and great. That list might've appeared more threatening last month, but it's hard to argue with results, especially when they're pretty much unblemished. BaBy dealt with somewhat recent losses wonderfully, and moved on with his life by beating whoever he faced in proleague. This kid's got some mental toughness to go along with his prodigious starcraft skill.
This next month will be BaBy's month to shine or retreat. Wemade is in a potentially precarious position in terms of the playoffs, and their success depends on BaBy. He will be their ace in the playoffs, and they will rise or fall on his back.
The rest: Some combination of Stats, Snow, fantasy, fOrGG, and someone else who might've been Leta if he hadn't lost in the offlines.
I like how you have this enormously longwinded section on effort and jaedong compared to everyone else. You literally did noting but compliment Effort while faulting everyone else. I understand where you're coming from but you're trying too hard to justify him.
You can't criticize everyone but one person unless that one person did something like a lossless month of domination.
I can't believe how close flash was of winning both leagues. 2-0 leads opening in both finals. Seriously I'd be so happy for him if he'd 3-0'd both finals Would have been an appropriate end to his dominance this season.
On May 29 2010 21:21 StylishVODs wrote: I can't believe how close flash was of winning both leagues. 2-0 leads opening in both finals. Seriously I'd be so happy for him if he'd 3-0'd both finals Would have been an appropriate end to his dominance this season.
He was never close. If he had 3-0ed the OSL the MSL would have turned out way differently.
Yes, I don't know if thats true or not. But neither do you.
On May 29 2010 21:21 StylishVODs wrote: I can't believe how close flash was of winning both leagues. 2-0 leads opening in both finals. Seriously I'd be so happy for him if he'd 3-0'd both finals Would have been an appropriate end to his dominance this season.
He was never close. If he had 3-0ed the OSL the MSL would have turned out way differently.
Yes, I don't know if thats true or not. But neither do you.
Yeah well I just know I'm right and you're wrong. What's "close" to you?
A win and a 2-3 loss from a 2-0 lead. Thats as close as you can get, literally.
On May 29 2010 21:21 StylishVODs wrote: I can't believe how close flash was of winning both leagues. 2-0 leads opening in both finals. Seriously I'd be so happy for him if he'd 3-0'd both finals Would have been an appropriate end to his dominance this season.
He was never close. If he had 3-0ed the OSL the MSL would have turned out way differently.
Yes, I don't know if thats true or not. But neither do you.
Yeah well I just know I'm right and you're wrong. What's "close" to you?
A win and a 2-3 loss from a 2-0 lead. Thats as close as you can get, literally.
A win and a 2-3 loss (in that order) would be close. But it was a 2-3 loss and a win. Players like Flash and Jaedong are way stronger after a loss/being underdogs. Imo Flash was way closer to double gold in the last season than this one (game 3 was so back and forth).
I am sure I am not the only one who thinks today's final would have turned out way differently had Flash won game 3 of the OSL.
On May 29 2010 21:21 StylishVODs wrote: I can't believe how close flash was of winning both leagues. 2-0 leads opening in both finals. Seriously I'd be so happy for him if he'd 3-0'd both finals Would have been an appropriate end to his dominance this season.
He was never close. If he had 3-0ed the OSL the MSL would have turned out way differently.
Yes, I don't know if thats true or not. But neither do you.
Yeah well I just know I'm right and you're wrong. What's "close" to you?
A win and a 2-3 loss from a 2-0 lead. Thats as close as you can get, literally.
A win and a 2-3 loss (in that order) would be close. But it was a 2-3 loss and a win. Players like Flash and Jaedong are way stronger after a loss/being underdogs. Imo Flash was way closer to double gold in the last season than this one (game 3 was so back and forth).
I am sure I am not the only one who thinks today's final would have turned out way differently had Flash won game 3 of the OSL.
Thats just speculation, saying if he had won the third set instead of losing it everything would have changed... I don't think so. It's possible but very unlikely and at the end of the day we have the results in. He won one and lose one 2-3 I think thats pretty close.
Whatever man I have to go, if you don't think he was close to winning both finals I don't know how to argue this one... ciao.
I like how flash is repeating the mistakes of past terran bonjwas. Nada was the only terran to ever lose an MSL Final before Flash. Boxer was the only terran (and player) to be denied a golden mouse before Flash.
On May 29 2010 21:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how flash is repeating the mistakes of past terran bonjwas. Nada was the only terran to ever lose an MSL Final before Flash. Boxer was the only terran (and player) to be denied a golden mouse before Flash.
Good thing Oov has no failures.
oov's record of 5-0 in finals makes him a real monster
Especially with Flash's and JD's "failure" this season.
On May 29 2010 21:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how flash is repeating the mistakes of past terran bonjwas. Nada was the only terran to ever lose an MSL Final before Flash. Boxer was the only terran (and player) to be denied a golden mouse before Flash.
Good thing Oov has no failures.
July was denied his Golden Mouse in Shinhan 2005 OSL against iloveoov, but he won it later so guess it did not matter
On May 29 2010 21:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how flash is repeating the mistakes of past terran bonjwas. Nada was the only terran to ever lose an MSL Final before Flash. Boxer was the only terran (and player) to be denied a golden mouse before Flash.
Good thing Oov has no failures.
oov's record of 5-0 in finals makes him a real monster
Especially with Flash's and JD's "failure" this season.
Does oov never lose a final ? Maybe the only person who does not lose in final ?
On May 29 2010 21:45 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how flash is repeating the mistakes of past terran bonjwas. Nada was the only terran to ever lose an MSL Final before Flash. Boxer was the only terran (and player) to be denied a golden mouse before Flash.
Good thing Oov has no failures.
oov's record of 5-0 in finals makes him a real monster
Especially with Flash's and JD's "failure" this season.
Does oov never lose a final ? Maybe the only person who does not lose in final ?
Looking at this I don't even know how I can be mad. Thanks to Effort and Flash Nada still kept his records (six gold and MSL/OSL win in the same season)
On May 29 2010 21:21 StylishVODs wrote: I can't believe how close flash was of winning both leagues. 2-0 leads opening in both finals. Seriously I'd be so happy for him if he'd 3-0'd both finals Would have been an appropriate end to his dominance this season.
He was never close. If he had 3-0ed the OSL the MSL would have turned out way differently.
Yes, I don't know if thats true or not. But neither do you.
Yeah well I just know I'm right and you're wrong. What's "close" to you?
A win and a 2-3 loss from a 2-0 lead. Thats as close as you can get, literally.
A win and a 2-3 loss (in that order) would be close. But it was a 2-3 loss and a win. Players like Flash and Jaedong are way stronger after a loss/being underdogs. Imo Flash was way closer to double gold in the last season than this one (game 3 was so back and forth).
I am sure I am not the only one who thinks today's final would have turned out way differently had Flash won game 3 of the OSL.
This is the stupidest statement I have ever seen, what stylish is saying is that he was close to winning both finals, he DID win vs. jaedong and he ALMOST won against effort by going up 2-0 you could not be more wrong. Do you just hate flash and not want to admit that or something? god it gives me a headache how stupid that argument is.
On May 29 2010 21:21 StylishVODs wrote: I can't believe how close flash was of winning both leagues. 2-0 leads opening in both finals. Seriously I'd be so happy for him if he'd 3-0'd both finals Would have been an appropriate end to his dominance this season.
He was never close. If he had 3-0ed the OSL the MSL would have turned out way differently.
Yes, I don't know if thats true or not. But neither do you.
Yeah well I just know I'm right and you're wrong. What's "close" to you?
A win and a 2-3 loss from a 2-0 lead. Thats as close as you can get, literally.
A win and a 2-3 loss (in that order) would be close. But it was a 2-3 loss and a win. Players like Flash and Jaedong are way stronger after a loss/being underdogs. Imo Flash was way closer to double gold in the last season than this one (game 3 was so back and forth).
I am sure I am not the only one who thinks today's final would have turned out way differently had Flash won game 3 of the OSL.
This is the stupidest statement I have ever seen, what stylish is saying is that he was close to winning both finals, he DID win vs. jaedong and he ALMOST won against effort by going up 2-0 you could not be more wrong. Do you just hate flash and not want to admit that or something? god it gives me a headache how stupid that argument is.
No I am saying Flash would have went to the MSL final in a way differently mentality than he did today. (worse for Flash, better for JD)
please just stop, superarc, aren't you embarrassed at this point?
i agree with whoever said jaedong fans have been a lot quieter than flash fans were after the osl, which leaves the question of who has prompted the swift addition of 75 posts to this thread - but of course it's effort fans
Jaedong might have more wins, but I think winning a starleague is more important. If Jaedong lost 2-3, maybe Jaedong should be #2, but as of now, EffOrt deserves #2.
Can't really disagree with Effort as #2. He got a gold, JD silver. Effort showed huge adaptivity in his series. Sadly JD did not. Effort also has a 4-2 record vs Flash while JD has 0-3.
Both looked evenly invincible at their other matches.
It's true I think that Flash's mentality was a bit stronger than it would have been if he had won OSL, but damn it, he completely swept Jaedong in a bo5.
Flash is the only choice for #1 this month. Period. I'd also put in an argument that he's now worthy of the name bonjwa. At the critical stage he overcame his rival and showed that his dominance as #1 in e-sports today is unquestionable.
And I'm not particularly a Flash fan. I like Flash and I like Jaedong, but I don't like a lot of the bullshit that gets tossed around by Flash's fans and Jaedong's fans. The reality is that Flash just overcame his chief rival in blowout fashion while at the height of his career while making the finals of both leagues back-to-back and maintaining roughly 80% wins over the past 12 months (79.8% counting last night, comparable to Oov at his prime), along the way defeating top names in the power rank and KeSPA rank and ELO from all three races for the past two seasons. I'd admit that there are players we haven't seen him bo5 that I'd like to see him bo5 against (for example, Leta and Snow), but it's not Flash's fault that those players don't make it far enough into individual leagues to give us that. The fact is that what Flash has just done is bonjwa worthy. Jaedong entered as the contender and he lost.
As for the talk of Effort at #2, I hesitate on that. Effort had a better series against Flash, yes, but if you go back to April and March, Jaedong was obviously vastly stronger. Other than the finals performances, Jaedong's May was every bit as good, possibly better even. I like Effort a lot. I'm more of an Effort fan than a Flash or Jaedong fan, but credit should be given where credit is due, and Jaedong is the second best player in the world.
My list remains: 1. Flash 2. Jaedong 3. Effort ---BIG GAP--- 4-5. Kal and Baby (in either order) 6-8. Fantasy, Calm and Midas (in no order) 9-10. Leta and Snow (again, either order)
My list of contenders for PR spots are: Iris, Hyuk, Stats, Action, Shine, and Classic
Jaedong might have more wins, but I think winning a starleague is more important. If Jaedong lost 2-3, maybe Jaedong should be #2, but as of now, EffOrt deserves #2.
Effort's record is worser, man. Jaedong dominated 9 people out of 10, 3 of them in BoX Effort played against only 4 people and only 2 BoX
There's a benefit of the doubt, you know, and it works both ways. You can't drop guy from second place simply because he lost to #1 after his usual brutal win streak. And you can't pull other guy out of nowhere and put him at 2 place after 2 matches and just flat out ignore his disgusting performance in last month that left bad taste in mouths of many people.
Personally, I wouldn't even put him at 3rd place and rather see BaBy there. Even though BaBy didn't win title his solid performance at least doesn't look like a fluke
Jaedong might have more wins, but I think winning a starleague is more important. If Jaedong lost 2-3, maybe Jaedong should be #2, but as of now, EffOrt deserves #2.
Effort's record is worser, man. Jaedong dominated 9 people out of 10, 3 of them in BoX Effort played against only 4 people and only 2 BoX
There's a benefit of the doubt, you know, and it works both ways. You can't drop guy from second place simply because he lost to #1 after his usual brutal win streak. And you can't pull other guy out of nowhere and put him at 2 place after 2 matches and just flat out ignore his disgusting performance in last month that left bad taste in mouths of many people.
Personally, I wouldn't even put him at 3rd place and rather see BaBy there. Even though BaBy didn't win title his solid performance at least doesn't look like a fluke
Jaedong might have more wins, but I think winning a starleague is more important. If Jaedong lost 2-3, maybe Jaedong should be #2, but as of now, EffOrt deserves #2.
Effort's record is worser, man. Jaedong dominated 9 people out of 10, 3 of them in BoX Effort played against only 4 people and only 2 BoX
There's a benefit of the doubt, you know, and it works both ways. You can't drop guy from second place simply because he lost to #1 after his usual brutal win streak. And you can't pull other guy out of nowhere and put him at 2 place after 2 matches and just flat out ignore his disgusting performance in last month that left bad taste in mouths of many people.
Personally, I wouldn't even put him at 3rd place and rather see BaBy there. Even though BaBy didn't win title his solid performance at least doesn't look like a fluke
Even if you think his win over Flash was a fluke, he crushed Kal, the perennial #4, viciously in a painful 3-0. On top of that, he did beat Flash earlier this month in a very adequate game. Flash will be the #1 this month, and Effort is the only guy with an impressive record on him.
On May 29 2010 20:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how you have this enormously longwinded section on effort and jaedong compared to everyone else. You literally did noting but compliment Effort while faulting everyone else. I understand where you're coming from but you're trying too hard to justify him.
You can't criticize everyone but one person unless that one person did something like a lossless month of domination.
I think I wrote enough I about each. I imagined the biggest point of contention would be Jaedong and EffOrt battling over the second spot, and so I wrote a lot about Jaedong too. At the end of the Jaedong section, I suggested why Jaedong should still the get benefit of the doubt over EffOrt. At the same time, EffOrt has had a great month, and gotten a lot of random hate.
Jaedong might have more wins, but I think winning a starleague is more important. If Jaedong lost 2-3, maybe Jaedong should be #2, but as of now, EffOrt deserves #2.
Effort's record is worser, man. Jaedong dominated 9 people out of 10, 3 of them in BoX Effort played against only 4 people and only 2 BoX
There's a benefit of the doubt, you know, and it works both ways. You can't drop guy from second place simply because he lost to #1 after his usual brutal win streak. And you can't pull other guy out of nowhere and put him at 2 place after 2 matches and just flat out ignore his disgusting performance in last month that left bad taste in mouths of many people.
Personally, I wouldn't even put him at 3rd place and rather see BaBy there. Even though BaBy didn't win title his solid performance at least doesn't look like a fluke
Also, there's a huge difference between someone like Shine who comes out of nowhere to 1a2a3a his way to the OSL semi-finals, and a guy like EffOrt who has already earned his credibility as a top-level gamer who comes out of a slump to win the OSL. Not a fluke.
***
Also, Leta lost in the MSL offlines, and Calm has a losing record for this month. I can't see either of them making this PR.
On May 29 2010 20:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how you have this enormously longwinded section on effort and jaedong compared to everyone else. You literally did noting but compliment Effort while faulting everyone else. I understand where you're coming from but you're trying too hard to justify him.
You can't criticize everyone but one person unless that one person did something like a lossless month of domination.
I think I wrote enough I about each. I imagined the biggest point of contention would be Jaedong and EffOrt battling over the second spot, and so I wrote a lot about Jaedong too. At the end of the Jaedong section, I suggested why Jaedong should still the get benefit of the doubt over EffOrt. At the same time, EffOrt has had a great month, and gotten a lot of random hate.
I think your point is not really fair.
Dude, the Effort part of your post is like a love letter. It's not a point, I'm just making fun of your "reasoning" for being transparently bias in favor of the guy you like, while trying to make it sound all legit. I mean seriously reread the Effort part of that rank and notice how you just say Effort's amazing at everything and is the future of starcraft. I actually found it funny
I mean here re read it right here for ease's sake:
This month, EffOrt occupied the position that he had begun to build for himself last summer in the proleague finals, as among BW's elite. Nonetheless, a lot of people have said some remarkably silly things about EffOrt recently. That's a shame, because EffOrt's OSL victory had all the hallmarks of a future champion. He showed grit and determination against a superior opponent. He did not break under pressure. He adapted in-game. And he harnessed the little bit of luck that came his way and ran with it.
In fact, what many people seemed to have missed about EffOrt's OSL run was how out of character it actually was. EffOrt is the management zerg to Jaedong's aggression. EffOrt races for a hive, and throws up crazy expansions. He attacks with small groups all over the map. He wears down his opponents. Which is why it was so interesting to see EffOrt break out a devastating early/mid-game to complement his superb late game multitasking ability. That's partially a product of CJ's coaching, but it's also a testament to EffOrt's skill as a player. And above all else, this should be alarming to EffOrt's future opponents. Giving this kid main stage experience, and expanding his deadly arsenal of tools can only mean more summer domination from the messiahlisk. The legend of the tiebreaker lives on.
My favorite part is where you go "he won with aggression, now let me wax poetic about how he plays lategame." It is the closest thing I can imagine to a word for word regurgitation of what a diehard fan thinks of him.
And there's nothing wrong with that! Don't get me wrong, I am numero uno in support of diehard fansmanship, it makes the game more important and lively for us fanboys. I'm just laughing that you tried to make a rank out of that exact horribly biased mindset.
The best part is I actually agree with your ranks, just find your descriptions utterly hilarious.
PS: Every player gets random hate. You don't have to justify it. Most players who get random hate are either unyieldingly awful or quite good. Though in effort's case I think a lot of it was the horrrrrible tiebreakers and the admittedly kindof-sortof cheesey win in the OSL (I'm not discrediting! Totally not! I'm seriously doing my best not to get misunderstood, Effort totally earned that OSL title)
If results is everything, Effort should be #2. But it's not everything so he will be #3. Saying that Jaedong failed to adapt while effort didn't is really unfair.
Effort adapted in one game, game 5, where he went zergling allin vs 14CC. Had it been a map where flash could make a lingproof wall that wouldn't have worked. Jaedong tried something like it with the hydrabreak and he was really close of getting past. This time it didn't work for him.
In game 3 and 4 effort didn't do anything spectacular to "adapt" to the situation rather than changing his build once he found dual proxy rax in the middle. Jaedong adapted by deveating his build into more greedy to try to get into an advantagous position in the lategame.
Calling Jaedong anything but the second best player right now is just wrong when looking at the games more closely and analyzing them. 1. flash 2. jaedong 3. effort imo
On May 29 2010 20:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how you have this enormously longwinded section on effort and jaedong compared to everyone else. You literally did noting but compliment Effort while faulting everyone else. I understand where you're coming from but you're trying too hard to justify him.
You can't criticize everyone but one person unless that one person did something like a lossless month of domination.
I think I wrote enough I about each. I imagined the biggest point of contention would be Jaedong and EffOrt battling over the second spot, and so I wrote a lot about Jaedong too. At the end of the Jaedong section, I suggested why Jaedong should still the get benefit of the doubt over EffOrt. At the same time, EffOrt has had a great month, and gotten a lot of random hate.
I think your point is not really fair.
Dude, the Effort part of your post is like a love letter. It's not a point, I'm just making fun of your "reasoning" for being transparently bias in favor of the guy you like, while trying to make it sound all legit. I mean seriously reread the Effort part of that rank and notice how you just say Effort's amazing at everything and is the future of starcraft. I actually found it funny
I mean here re read it right here for ease's sake:
This month, EffOrt occupied the position that he had begun to build for himself last summer in the proleague finals, as among BW's elite. Nonetheless, a lot of people have said some remarkably silly things about EffOrt recently. That's a shame, because EffOrt's OSL victory had all the hallmarks of a future champion. He showed grit and determination against a superior opponent. He did not break under pressure. He adapted in-game. And he harnessed the little bit of luck that came his way and ran with it.
In fact, what many people seemed to have missed about EffOrt's OSL run was how out of character it actually was. EffOrt is the management zerg to Jaedong's aggression. EffOrt races for a hive, and throws up crazy expansions. He attacks with small groups all over the map. He wears down his opponents. Which is why it was so interesting to see EffOrt break out a devastating early/mid-game to complement his superb late game multitasking ability. That's partially a product of CJ's coaching, but it's also a testament to EffOrt's skill as a player. And above all else, this should be alarming to EffOrt's future opponents. Giving this kid main stage experience, and expanding his deadly arsenal of tools can only mean more summer domination from the messiahlisk. The legend of the tiebreaker lives on.
My favorite part is where you go "he won with aggression, now let me wax poetic about how he plays lategame." It is the closest thing I can imagine to a word for word regurgitation of what a diehard fan thinks of him.
And there's nothing wrong with that! Don't get me wrong, I am numero uno in support of diehard fansmanship, it makes the game more important and lively for us fanboys. I'm just laughing that you tried to make a rank out of that exact horribly biased mindset.
The best part is I actually agree with your ranks, just find your descriptions utterly hilarious.
PS: Every player gets random hate. You don't have to justify it. Most players who get random hate are either unyieldingly awful or quite good. Though in effort's case I think a lot of it was the horrrrrible tiebreakers and the admittedly kindof-sortof cheesey win in the OSL (I'm not discrediting! Totally not! I'm seriously doing my best not to get misunderstood, Effort totally earned that OSL title)
I mean, you're right about the reason EffOrt got a lot of negativity after the OSL - I also figure a ton of people never really saw EffOrt play last year, only the awful slump he just came out of. And he did win the OSL in 30 minutes after a long build up, and the huge expectations on Flash, especially after that game two beat-down.
But honestly, I wrote that section on EffOrt in the way that I did because (1) It's all true, and (2) Plexa won't do it. I could've talked about how his multi-task was straight-up beaten in the second game of the OSL, and how his push breaking in game one might've been handled better. But EffOrt has had the best month of the top three, and I feel like I have to compensate for ridiculous Plexa "dirty zerg" arguments all the time.
I stuck the reasons that EffOrt should be #3 to Jaedong's #2 in the JD section. But for all of EffOrt's sublime play, he needs to continue it and keep it going into the next starleague season. I believe he will, but I don't know that he will. Jaedong though, is not going anywhere, and I'm positive about that.
I probably didn't do enough justice to Flash in that write-up either, but honestly, it's getting difficult to list the ways that Flash is impressing me lately. Yesterday though, I should mention that the versatility of Flash's play was absolutely breathtaking. Only his anti-scourge control needs work. (Haha, just had to get that in there.)
But I also saw something from Flash that I had only really seen recently from Jaedong before. I knew Flash was going to win the MSL, because I knew that Flash would never make the same mistakes twice. I knew that Flash had rebounded even more strongly from his CJ losses and was simply not going to lose to any zerg, even Jaedong. And in last years MSL, we saw Flash wilt a bit. But this starleague season we didn't see any such thing.
So to clarify a point I made earlier, EffOrt might be the future of starcraft, and I hope he stays in this conversation. But Flash is the future of starcraft.*
Princess, of course, is the future of the future of starcraft.
***
These three are clearly the best right now, but as high as Flash is, I don't think the gaps between #1 and #5 are as large as they looked last season. I love what we're seeing from BaBy right now, and I think Kal is playing some of the best starcraft of his life; even if he can't deliver against the top three.
If anything, I feel like there's a surprising gap between #5 and #6. There's no consistency in the back 5, and although I have a list of players who are doing well, it's just so hard to see how they stack up outside of the lower/mid rounds of the starleagues.
On May 30 2010 03:24 tree.hugger wrote: Also, there's a huge difference between someone like Shine who comes out of nowhere to 1a2a3a his way to the OSL semi-finals, and a guy like EffOrt who has already earned his credibility as a top-level gamer who comes out of a slump to win the OSL. Not a fluke.
If he came out of a slump there wouldn't be any argument. But how can you say that when all what we've seen was one well prepared series against Kal and one good win against flash in spl? That's not nearly enough to judge whether or not someone one's slump is over, and especially not enough to warrant placing him at 3rd place and above totally out of blue. Yeah, we also saw efforts BoX against Flash that get him gold, but if it showed anything is that he's not anywhere close to the Flash in his solid mid-late gameplay, since in games that, you know, weren't all-ins he was humiliated.
On May 30 2010 03:07 TwoToneTerran wrote: Even if you think his win over Flash was a fluke, he crushed Kal, the perennial #4, viciously in a painful 3-0. On top of that, he did beat Flash earlier this month in a very adequate game. Flash will be the #1 this month, and Effort is the only guy with an impressive record on him.
You honestly wanna say these 4 games against 2 players outshine Jaedong's performance this month? And while having good record on someone is cute it doesn't bear any special meaning to draw conclusions from.
After checking tlpd: flash vs effort 8:5 what is this? Stork has much better record against flash, let alone Jaedong.
Effort beat #1 and #4 in Bo5s. I wouldn't be upset if he was ahead of Jaedong. I also wouldn't be upset is Jaedong is above him.
I don't care about overall record. It's about this month, and for this month you'd be insane to think Effort isn't close to Jaedong, whether or not you think he's ahead, behind, or equal.
On May 30 2010 03:24 tree.hugger wrote: Also, there's a huge difference between someone like Shine who comes out of nowhere to 1a2a3a his way to the OSL semi-finals, and a guy like EffOrt who has already earned his credibility as a top-level gamer who comes out of a slump to win the OSL. Not a fluke.
If he came out of a slump there wouldn't be any argument. But how can you say that when all what we've seen was one well prepared series against Kal and one good win against flash in spl? That's not nearly enough to judge whether or not someone one's slump is over, and especially not enough to warrant placing him at 3rd place and above totally out of blue. Yeah, we also saw efforts BoX against Flash that get him gold, but if it showed anything is that he's not anywhere close to the Flash in his solid mid-late gameplay, since in games that, you know, weren't all-ins he was humiliated.
EffOrt is 13-2 and since the tiebreakers, with proleague wins against Action, Kwanro, fantasy, great, and Flash. He's beaten ZerO, Kal, and Flash in BoX's.
On May 29 2010 20:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how you have this enormously longwinded section on effort and jaedong compared to everyone else. You literally did noting but compliment Effort while faulting everyone else. I understand where you're coming from but you're trying too hard to justify him.
You can't criticize everyone but one person unless that one person did something like a lossless month of domination.
I think I wrote enough I about each. I imagined the biggest point of contention would be Jaedong and EffOrt battling over the second spot, and so I wrote a lot about Jaedong too. At the end of the Jaedong section, I suggested why Jaedong should still the get benefit of the doubt over EffOrt. At the same time, EffOrt has had a great month, and gotten a lot of random hate.
I think your point is not really fair.
Dude, the Effort part of your post is like a love letter. It's not a point, I'm just making fun of your "reasoning" for being transparently bias in favor of the guy you like, while trying to make it sound all legit. I mean seriously reread the Effort part of that rank and notice how you just say Effort's amazing at everything and is the future of starcraft. I actually found it funny
I mean here re read it right here for ease's sake:
This month, EffOrt occupied the position that he had begun to build for himself last summer in the proleague finals, as among BW's elite. Nonetheless, a lot of people have said some remarkably silly things about EffOrt recently. That's a shame, because EffOrt's OSL victory had all the hallmarks of a future champion. He showed grit and determination against a superior opponent. He did not break under pressure. He adapted in-game. And he harnessed the little bit of luck that came his way and ran with it.
In fact, what many people seemed to have missed about EffOrt's OSL run was how out of character it actually was. EffOrt is the management zerg to Jaedong's aggression. EffOrt races for a hive, and throws up crazy expansions. He attacks with small groups all over the map. He wears down his opponents. Which is why it was so interesting to see EffOrt break out a devastating early/mid-game to complement his superb late game multitasking ability. That's partially a product of CJ's coaching, but it's also a testament to EffOrt's skill as a player. And above all else, this should be alarming to EffOrt's future opponents. Giving this kid main stage experience, and expanding his deadly arsenal of tools can only mean more summer domination from the messiahlisk. The legend of the tiebreaker lives on.
My favorite part is where you go "he won with aggression, now let me wax poetic about how he plays lategame." It is the closest thing I can imagine to a word for word regurgitation of what a diehard fan thinks of him.
And there's nothing wrong with that! Don't get me wrong, I am numero uno in support of diehard fansmanship, it makes the game more important and lively for us fanboys. I'm just laughing that you tried to make a rank out of that exact horribly biased mindset.
The best part is I actually agree with your ranks, just find your descriptions utterly hilarious.
PS: Every player gets random hate. You don't have to justify it. Most players who get random hate are either unyieldingly awful or quite good. Though in effort's case I think a lot of it was the horrrrrible tiebreakers and the admittedly kindof-sortof cheesey win in the OSL (I'm not discrediting! Totally not! I'm seriously doing my best not to get misunderstood, Effort totally earned that OSL title)
I mean, you're right about the reason EffOrt got a lot of negativity after the OSL - I also figure a ton of people never really saw EffOrt play last year, only the awful slump he just came out of. And he did win the OSL in 30 minutes after a long build up, and the huge expectations on Flash, especially after that game two beat-down.
But honestly, I wrote that section on EffOrt in the way that I did because (1) It's all true, and (2) Plexa won't do it. I could've talked about how his multi-task was straight-up beaten in the second game of the OSL, and how his push breaking in game one might've been handled better. But EffOrt has had the best month of the top three, and I feel like I have to compensate for ridiculous Plexa "dirty zerg" arguments all the time.
I stuck the reasons that EffOrt should be #3 to Jaedong's #2 in the JD section. But for all of EffOrt's sublime play, he needs to continue it and keep it going into the next starleague season. I believe he will, but I don't know that he will. Jaedong though, is not going anywhere, and I'm positive about that.
I probably didn't do enough justice to Flash in that write-up either, but honestly, it's getting difficult to list the ways that Flash is impressing me lately. Yesterday though, I should mention that the versatility of Flash's play was absolutely breathtaking. Only his anti-scourge control needs work. (Haha, just had to get that in there.)
But I also saw something from Flash that I had only really seen recently from Jaedong before. I knew Flash was going to win the MSL, because I knew that Flash would never make the same mistakes twice. I knew that Flash had rebounded even more strongly from his CJ losses and was simply not going to lose to any zerg, even Jaedong. And in last years MSL, we saw Flash wilt a bit. But this starleague season we didn't see any such thing.
So to clarify a point I made earlier, EffOrt might be the future of starcraft, and I hope he stays in this conversation. But Flash is the future of starcraft.*
Princess, of course, is the future of the future of starcraft.
***
These three are clearly the best right now, but as high as Flash is, I don't think the gaps between #1 and #5 are as large as they looked last season. I love what we're seeing from BaBy right now, and I think Kal is playing some of the best starcraft of his life; even if he can't deliver against the top three.
If anything, I feel like there's a surprising gap between #5 and #6. There's no consistency in the back 5, and although I have a list of players who are doing well, it's just so hard to see how they stack up outside of the lower/mid rounds of the starleagues.
It's all good dude, but you can't tell me it was tinted, neigh, painted in Effort fanboyism. You even used a silly nickname (messiahlisk is such a bad nickname I'm sorry Effort fans) and said he established a "legend" from what is probably the biggest blackmark of his career in the tiebreakers. It'd be like me saying "legend of the 14cc" a year ago because Flash did technically win more often than he lost with 14cc, but that's not a bright spot!
Yeah since jaedong lost 0-3 effort is closer than I thought he would.
But the fact that Jaedong was close in two games, game 1 and 3, while effort did just manage to sneak in his win with a 3-2 victory it doesn't prove to me Effort was better this month than JD.
If effort had showed superior play and won 3-1 or so I would gladly accept him as #2.
Jaedong is a player who cuts corners aswell as flash. Sometimes when they lose doing this they look silly. Aswell as effort would have looked silly if flash had blocked his choke that fifth game.
Had effort lost the last game that way, no one would have argued that he was #2. But a small deciding thing like that change everyones mind. You have to look at the bigger picture when ranking the players imo.
On May 29 2010 20:47 TwoToneTerran wrote: I like how you have this enormously longwinded section on effort and jaedong compared to everyone else. You literally did noting but compliment Effort while faulting everyone else. I understand where you're coming from but you're trying too hard to justify him.
You can't criticize everyone but one person unless that one person did something like a lossless month of domination.
I think I wrote enough I about each. I imagined the biggest point of contention would be Jaedong and EffOrt battling over the second spot, and so I wrote a lot about Jaedong too. At the end of the Jaedong section, I suggested why Jaedong should still the get benefit of the doubt over EffOrt. At the same time, EffOrt has had a great month, and gotten a lot of random hate.
I think your point is not really fair.
Dude, the Effort part of your post is like a love letter. It's not a point, I'm just making fun of your "reasoning" for being transparently bias in favor of the guy you like, while trying to make it sound all legit. I mean seriously reread the Effort part of that rank and notice how you just say Effort's amazing at everything and is the future of starcraft. I actually found it funny
I mean here re read it right here for ease's sake:
This month, EffOrt occupied the position that he had begun to build for himself last summer in the proleague finals, as among BW's elite. Nonetheless, a lot of people have said some remarkably silly things about EffOrt recently. That's a shame, because EffOrt's OSL victory had all the hallmarks of a future champion. He showed grit and determination against a superior opponent. He did not break under pressure. He adapted in-game. And he harnessed the little bit of luck that came his way and ran with it.
In fact, what many people seemed to have missed about EffOrt's OSL run was how out of character it actually was. EffOrt is the management zerg to Jaedong's aggression. EffOrt races for a hive, and throws up crazy expansions. He attacks with small groups all over the map. He wears down his opponents. Which is why it was so interesting to see EffOrt break out a devastating early/mid-game to complement his superb late game multitasking ability. That's partially a product of CJ's coaching, but it's also a testament to EffOrt's skill as a player. And above all else, this should be alarming to EffOrt's future opponents. Giving this kid main stage experience, and expanding his deadly arsenal of tools can only mean more summer domination from the messiahlisk. The legend of the tiebreaker lives on.
My favorite part is where you go "he won with aggression, now let me wax poetic about how he plays lategame." It is the closest thing I can imagine to a word for word regurgitation of what a diehard fan thinks of him.
And there's nothing wrong with that! Don't get me wrong, I am numero uno in support of diehard fansmanship, it makes the game more important and lively for us fanboys. I'm just laughing that you tried to make a rank out of that exact horribly biased mindset.
The best part is I actually agree with your ranks, just find your descriptions utterly hilarious.
PS: Every player gets random hate. You don't have to justify it. Most players who get random hate are either unyieldingly awful or quite good. Though in effort's case I think a lot of it was the horrrrrible tiebreakers and the admittedly kindof-sortof cheesey win in the OSL (I'm not discrediting! Totally not! I'm seriously doing my best not to get misunderstood, Effort totally earned that OSL title)
I mean, you're right about the reason EffOrt got a lot of negativity after the OSL - I also figure a ton of people never really saw EffOrt play last year, only the awful slump he just came out of. And he did win the OSL in 30 minutes after a long build up, and the huge expectations on Flash, especially after that game two beat-down.
But honestly, I wrote that section on EffOrt in the way that I did because (1) It's all true, and (2) Plexa won't do it. I could've talked about how his multi-task was straight-up beaten in the second game of the OSL, and how his push breaking in game one might've been handled better. But EffOrt has had the best month of the top three, and I feel like I have to compensate for ridiculous Plexa "dirty zerg" arguments all the time.
I stuck the reasons that EffOrt should be #3 to Jaedong's #2 in the JD section. But for all of EffOrt's sublime play, he needs to continue it and keep it going into the next starleague season. I believe he will, but I don't know that he will. Jaedong though, is not going anywhere, and I'm positive about that.
I probably didn't do enough justice to Flash in that write-up either, but honestly, it's getting difficult to list the ways that Flash is impressing me lately. Yesterday though, I should mention that the versatility of Flash's play was absolutely breathtaking. Only his anti-scourge control needs work. (Haha, just had to get that in there.)
But I also saw something from Flash that I had only really seen recently from Jaedong before. I knew Flash was going to win the MSL, because I knew that Flash would never make the same mistakes twice. I knew that Flash had rebounded even more strongly from his CJ losses and was simply not going to lose to any zerg, even Jaedong. And in last years MSL, we saw Flash wilt a bit. But this starleague season we didn't see any such thing.
So to clarify a point I made earlier, EffOrt might be the future of starcraft, and I hope he stays in this conversation. But Flash is the future of starcraft.*
Princess, of course, is the future of the future of starcraft.
***
These three are clearly the best right now, but as high as Flash is, I don't think the gaps between #1 and #5 are as large as they looked last season. I love what we're seeing from BaBy right now, and I think Kal is playing some of the best starcraft of his life; even if he can't deliver against the top three.
If anything, I feel like there's a surprising gap between #5 and #6. There's no consistency in the back 5, and although I have a list of players who are doing well, it's just so hard to see how they stack up outside of the lower/mid rounds of the starleagues.
It's all good dude, but you can't tell me it was tinted, neigh, painted in Effort fanboyism. You even used a silly nickname (messiahlisk is such a bad nickname I'm sorry Effort fans) and said he established a "legend" from what is probably the biggest blackmark of his career in the tiebreakers. It'd be like me saying "legend of the 14cc" a year ago because Flash did technically win more often than he lost with 14cc, but that's not a bright spot!
But you know, the funny thing about the tiebreakers, was that EffOrt was just terrible before them, and suddenly, he just started winning again. And he rode that momentum to the OSL title.
I think there's something poetic about finding something in your lowest of lows (that was easily the worst day to be an EffOrt fan.) and then taking that and turning things around.
And messiahlisk is a fine nickname!
On May 30 2010 06:18 StylishVODs wrote: Yeah since jaedong lost 0-3 effort is closer than I thought he would.
But the fact that Jaedong was close in two games, game 1 and 3, while effort did just manage to sneak in his win with a 3-2 victory it doesn't prove to me Effort was better this month than JD.
If effort had showed superior play and won 3-1 or so I would gladly accept him as #2.
Jaedong is a player who cuts corners aswell as flash. Sometimes when they lose doing this they look silly. Aswell as effort would have looked silly if flash had blocked his choke that fifth game.
Had effort lost the last game that way, no one would have argued that he was #2. But a small deciding thing like that change everyones mind. You have to look at the bigger picture when ranking the players imo.
I predict jaedong as #2 on the next PR.
You seem to be assuming that EffOrt was intending to go mass zerglings all along...
On May 30 2010 05:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Every player gets random hate. You don't have to justify it. Most players who get random hate are either unyieldingly awful or quite good. Though in effort's case I think a lot of it was the horrrrrible tiebreakers and the admittedly kindof-sortof cheesey win in the OSL (I'm not discrediting! Totally not! I'm seriously doing my best not to get misunderstood, Effort totally earned that OSL title)
Can you imagine Boxer getting such reactions for playing some crappy/cheesy games if he came back and won an OSL? The Effort hate would be understandable if Effort had been a nobody before this run. But this is the same Effort whom CJ used to rely on so heavily (and with justification!) in the PL, who made consistent PR top five last year including an appearance at #1, and who looked like a plausible future SL champion for some time until his slump.
On May 30 2010 05:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Every player gets random hate. You don't have to justify it. Most players who get random hate are either unyieldingly awful or quite good. Though in effort's case I think a lot of it was the horrrrrible tiebreakers and the admittedly kindof-sortof cheesey win in the OSL (I'm not discrediting! Totally not! I'm seriously doing my best not to get misunderstood, Effort totally earned that OSL title)
Can you imagine Boxer getting such reactions for playing some crappy/cheesy games if he came back and won an OSL? The Effort hate would be understandable if Effort had been a nobody before this run. But this is the same Effort whom CJ used to rely on so heavily (and with justification!) in the PL, who made consistent PR top five last year including an appearance at #1, and who looked like a plausible future SL champion for some time until his slump.
If Boxer BBS'd Jaedong three times in a row he still wouldn't be a great player.
He would be pretty awesome though. And yes, it's a double standard, but you can not tell me Boxer doesn't earn that double standard. It'd be the same if Oov or Nada did it. Or July, or Chojja. or Yellow, or Nal_rA or Reach. The old timers have earned our respect through a lot more than just being good for a few months last year.
On May 30 2010 06:27 tree.hugger wrote:
And messiahlisk is a fine nickname!
Nah man it's terrible. It's totally SC centric and doesn't say much about him as a player. From it and him being in CJ you just gather that he's a zerg and he's the successor to Savior, which is not a good thing anymore. It just doesn't have the same presence as stuff like Commander, Tyrant, Ultimate Weapon, or Beesu- well Bisu's nicknames suck too(yes yes I know The Revolutionist I just like making fun of him :3).
It has no ring to it. Say that's the guy's nickname to someone who isn't too familiar with SC and they'll go "Messiah what?" Say someone's the ultimate weapon and they get the gist! Like think of all the Bonjwas, Emperor, Tornado, Gorilla/Cheater (funny but menacing!), Maestro etc etc. I want Effort to have a powerful nickname if he's actually going to be a powerful player.
I guess "Messiah" by itself would be okay but that's just putting Effort in Savior's shadow and he deserves more than that, especially given recent times.
A comparison is the "Crown Prince." Name for Fantasy. It just puts him in the shadow of his predecessors and says nothing about him as a player. "Terrorist" is a much better nickname as it has a history and a presence all its own.
Nah man it's terrible. It's totally SC centric and doesn't say much about him as a player. From it and him being in CJ you just gather that he's a zerg and he's the successor to Savior, which is not a good thing anymore. It just doesn't have the same presence as stuff like Commander, Tyrant, Ultimate Weapon, or Beesu- well Bisu's nicknames suck too.
It has no ring to it. Say that's the guy's nickname to someone who isn't too familiar with SC and they'll go "Messiah what?" Say someone's the ultimate weapon and they get the gist! Like think of all the Bonjwas, Emperor, Tornado, Gorilla/Cheater (funny but menacing!), Maestro etc etc. I want Effort to have a powerful nickname if he's actually going to be a powerful player.
I guess "Messiah" by itself would be okay but that's just putting Effort in Savior's shadow and he deserves more than that, especially given recent times.
A comparison is the "Crown Prince." Name for Fantasy. It just puts him in the shadow of his predecessors and says nothing about him as a player. "Terrorist" is a much better nickname as it has a history and a presence all its own.
Fairly argued. But there are always going to be starcraft-y nicknames, as well as regular nicknames. EffOrt is, first and foremost, The Alien on TL, and Hawkeye in Korea. The messiahlisk was just one of those nicknames that cropped up last year, and it has a nice ring to it. And EffOrt is CJ's messiah/savior more than ever now.
On May 30 2010 06:27 tree.hugger wrote: You seem to be assuming that EffOrt was intending to go mass zerglings all along...
No, I'm merely pointing out that such small things shouldn't decide who's #2. If he had lost that game, and lost the OSL 3-2 no one would argue him to be #2. It's such a small matter to discuss and I'm trying to say that you have to look at the bigger picture.
On May 30 2010 06:31 n.DieJokes wrote: What a disappointing day,I don't even want to argue JD as 2. Game 3 was so sad to watch
You do realize that he was SERIOUSLY close to breaking flash's wall right?
He did a build much like effort on matchpoint. Trying to punnish flash for his 14CC. When effort did it, it worked, this time it didn't. It was still very exiting to watch and very close.
On May 30 2010 06:31 n.DieJokes wrote: What a disappointing day,I don't even want to argue JD as 2. Game 3 was so sad to watch
You do realize that he was SERIOUSLY close to breaking flash's wall right?
He did a build much like effort on matchpoint. Trying to punnish flash for his 14CC. When effort did it, it worked, this time it didn't. It was still very exiting to watch and very close.
It was a good build and it put him in a great position but I think it's pretty obvious in retrospect that the correct move would have been to immediately double expand after sniping the rax. At no point could Jaedong definitively break FlaSh and FlaSh's defense was getting exponentially stronger. I guess I just expected the flawless decision making Jaedong usually brings to Bo5's
On May 29 2010 21:21 StylishVODs wrote: I can't believe how close flash was of winning both leagues. 2-0 leads opening in both finals. Seriously I'd be so happy for him if he'd 3-0'd both finals Would have been an appropriate end to his dominance this season.
He was never close. If he had 3-0ed the OSL the MSL would have turned out way differently.
Yes, I don't know if thats true or not. But neither do you.
Yeah well I just know I'm right and you're wrong. What's "close" to you?
A win and a 2-3 loss from a 2-0 lead. Thats as close as you can get, literally.
A win and a 2-3 loss (in that order) would be close. But it was a 2-3 loss and a win. Players like Flash and Jaedong are way stronger after a loss/being underdogs. Imo Flash was way closer to double gold in the last season than this one (game 3 was so back and forth).
I am sure I am not the only one who thinks today's final would have turned out way differently had Flash won game 3 of the OSL.
This is the stupidest statement I have ever seen, what stylish is saying is that he was close to winning both finals, he DID win vs. jaedong and he ALMOST won against effort by going up 2-0 you could not be more wrong. Do you just hate flash and not want to admit that or something? god it gives me a headache how stupid that argument is.
No I am saying Flash would have went to the MSL final in a way differently mentality than he did today. (worse for Flash, better for JD)
I agree with superarc here (can't believe I'm saying this!). Flash even said in his interview that the reason he was so resolute was because he believed that if he lost in both finals he would slump forever. Had Flash not lost in the OSL he may not have come in with the same fire that he did. While nobody can say whether or not JD would have won in this case (I'm guessing no, but who knows) the fact of the matter is that Flash's mental state would have been different.
On May 29 2010 21:21 StylishVODs wrote: I can't believe how close flash was of winning both leagues. 2-0 leads opening in both finals. Seriously I'd be so happy for him if he'd 3-0'd both finals Would have been an appropriate end to his dominance this season.
He was never close. If he had 3-0ed the OSL the MSL would have turned out way differently.
Yes, I don't know if thats true or not. But neither do you.
Yeah well I just know I'm right and you're wrong. What's "close" to you?
A win and a 2-3 loss from a 2-0 lead. Thats as close as you can get, literally.
A win and a 2-3 loss (in that order) would be close. But it was a 2-3 loss and a win. Players like Flash and Jaedong are way stronger after a loss/being underdogs. Imo Flash was way closer to double gold in the last season than this one (game 3 was so back and forth).
I am sure I am not the only one who thinks today's final would have turned out way differently had Flash won game 3 of the OSL.
This is the stupidest statement I have ever seen, what stylish is saying is that he was close to winning both finals, he DID win vs. jaedong and he ALMOST won against effort by going up 2-0 you could not be more wrong. Do you just hate flash and not want to admit that or something? god it gives me a headache how stupid that argument is.
No I am saying Flash would have went to the MSL final in a way differently mentality than he did today. (worse for Flash, better for JD)
I agree with superarc here (can't believe I'm saying this!). Flash even said in his interview that the reason he was so resolute was because he believed that if he lost in both finals he would slump forever. Had Flash not lost in the OSL he may not have come in with the same fire that he did. While nobody can say whether or not JD would have won in this case (I'm guessing no, but who knows) the fact of the matter is that Flash's mental state would have been different.
The argument was: I said flash was really close to getting both titles here... Superarc answered: He was never close... (lol whut, tell me what would be close then?) if he had 3-0'd effort the MSL would have been different (implying jaedong would win? because otherwise it wouldn't have mattered and either way it's pure speculation) I don't see how you can agree with this but at the same time I can't see why I'm still arguing about this.
I'm very tired right now, maybe I don't post clear enough or something... I've got to go to sleep.
On May 30 2010 05:46 StylishVODs wrote: If results is everything, Effort should be #2. But it's not everything so he will be #3. Saying that Jaedong failed to adapt while effort didn't is really unfair.
Effort adapted in one game, game 5, where he went zergling allin vs 14CC. Had it been a map where flash could make a lingproof wall that wouldn't have worked. Jaedong tried something like it with the hydrabreak and he was really close of getting past. This time it didn't work for him.
In game 3 and 4 effort didn't do anything spectacular to "adapt" to the situation rather than changing his build once he found dual proxy rax in the middle. Jaedong adapted by deveating his build into more greedy to try to get into an advantagous position in the lategame.
Do you even know what the word adapt means? We got a Flash revisionist historian here.
why does nobody want to talk about why Baby should be #4? we have pages and pages of debate over #2 and nobody wants to debate the apparent tossup for #4?
First of all this is a power rank not an ELO recap. As I have heard some of the admins describe it, this ranking is more weighted towards the relative change in the players performance as well as big events and other high interest games then raw performance.
If so, coming from a team whose star has been discredited and whose team cast into ignominy ,coming back from a 0-2 deficit against one of the (if not the) best players in the world, playing on unfavorable maps and in the statistically most imbalanced and unfair match-up, and winning the most prestigious starleague for the first time in the players career, would almost have to be enough to catapult any player to the number 1 spot, even if that player was not the most technically skilled.
I am not an effort fan, just trying to throw out a semi-unbiased opinion.
On May 30 2010 09:05 o[twist] wrote: why does nobody want to talk about why Baby should be #4? we have pages and pages of debate over #2 and nobody wants to debate the apparent tossup for #4?
nobody cares because anytime jaedong stands to lose a single spot on the pr all hell breaks loose
On May 30 2010 11:47 JonathanJohnson wrote: Effort #1 Flash #2 Jaedong #3
First of all this is a power rank not an ELO recap. As I have heard some of the admins describe it, this ranking is more weighted towards the relative change in the players performance as well as big events and other high interest games then raw performance.
If so, coming from a team whose star has been discredited and whose team cast into ignominy ,coming back from a 0-2 deficit against one of the (if not the) best players in the world, playing on unfavorable maps and in the statistically most imbalanced and unfair match-up, and winning the most prestigious starleague for the first time in the players career, would almost have to be enough to catapult any player to the number 1 spot, even if that player was not the most technically skilled.
I am not an effort fan, just trying to throw out a semi-unbiased opinion.
On May 30 2010 11:47 JonathanJohnson wrote: Effort #1 Flash #2 Jaedong #3
First of all this is a power rank not an ELO recap. As I have heard some of the admins describe it, this ranking is more weighted towards the relative change in the players performance as well as big events and other high interest games then raw performance.
If so, coming from a team whose star has been discredited and whose team cast into ignominy ,coming back from a 0-2 deficit against one of the (if not the) best players in the world, playing on unfavorable maps and in the statistically most imbalanced and unfair match-up, and winning the most prestigious starleague for the first time in the players career, would almost have to be enough to catapult any player to the number 1 spot, even if that player was not the most technically skilled.
I am not an effort fan, just trying to throw out a semi-unbiased opinion.
On May 30 2010 11:47 JonathanJohnson wrote: Effort #1 Flash #2 Jaedong #3
First of all this is a power rank not an ELO recap. As I have heard some of the admins describe it, this ranking is more weighted towards the relative change in the players performance as well as big events and other high interest games then raw performance.
If so, coming from a team whose star has been discredited and whose team cast into ignominy ,coming back from a 0-2 deficit against one of the (if not the) best players in the world, playing on unfavorable maps and in the statistically most imbalanced and unfair match-up, and winning the most prestigious starleague for the first time in the players career, would almost have to be enough to catapult any player to the number 1 spot, even if that player was not the most technically skilled.
I am not an effort fan, just trying to throw out a semi-unbiased opinion.
On May 30 2010 14:13 SuperArc wrote: Ever wanted to see PvT in perfection?
Look at Snow and this is not even mindless fanboyism.
We'll see very soon. Snow will clash against Fantasy, who is a real nightmare for any Protoss. This is a real test for him, as hard as his win against Flash (no blind fanboyism here :D). Fantasy is the type of agresive Terran, who will turn all small oponent's mistakes into a catastophe. If Snow pass this test, I think he could be another true terran killer.
On May 30 2010 14:13 SuperArc wrote: Ever wanted to see PvT in perfection?
Look at Snow and this is not even mindless fanboyism.
You're a bit quick to call it "perfection" imho.
Of course perfection doesn't exist in SC, but I've watched all of his PvTs. But when I look at how many protoss struggle vs terran even if they were able to fully abuse 12nex and then there is Snow who always goes gateway first and -almost- literally crush his terran opponents I feel like I see a combination of Bisu's micro and Stork's decision making.
Hell, Snow currently even has the highest PvT Elo.
On May 30 2010 11:47 JonathanJohnson wrote: Effort #1 Flash #2 Jaedong #3
First of all this is a power rank not an ELO recap. As I have heard some of the admins describe it, this ranking is more weighted towards the relative change in the players performance as well as big events and other high interest games then raw performance.
If so, coming from a team whose star has been discredited and whose team cast into ignominy ,coming back from a 0-2 deficit against one of the (if not the) best players in the world, playing on unfavorable maps and in the statistically most imbalanced and unfair match-up, and winning the most prestigious starleague for the first time in the players career, would almost have to be enough to catapult any player to the number 1 spot, even if that player was not the most technically skilled.
I am not an effort fan, just trying to throw out a semi-unbiased opinion.
LOL WUT?
Post count + post content => troll?
Momentum Rank gogo
Actually if you look back at some of the old power ranks, thats not too far off the bat. Although I guess many people would prefer a Size_of_Fan_Club Rank these days
Are you insane? The old rankings were even less prone to changing. Savior staying over Bisu despite losing, Nada staying over Anytime despite losing, etc etc. They valued the content of the games rather than the pure statistical value moreso then than now.
On May 30 2010 23:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: Are you insane? The old rankings were even less prone to changing. Savior staying over Bisu despite losing, Nada staying over Anytime despite losing, etc etc. They valued the content of the games rather than the pure statistical value moreso then than now.
Er, sorry about that, I mixed them up, it was Anytime staying over Nada with the reason of
Watch his games from this most-recent OSL. Then watch Nada’s. Then come back here and tell me, with a straight face, that Nada played better. <i>Hint: he didn’t.</i>
Same difference, past ranks weren't dictated entirely by who won from a purely statistical standpoint. Same as nowadays.
On May 30 2010 05:46 StylishVODs wrote: If results is everything, Effort should be #2. But it's not everything so he will be #3. Saying that Jaedong failed to adapt while effort didn't is really unfair.
Effort adapted in one game, game 5, where he went zergling allin vs 14CC. Had it been a map where flash could make a lingproof wall that wouldn't have worked. Jaedong tried something like it with the hydrabreak and he was really close of getting past. This time it didn't work for him.
In game 3 and 4 effort didn't do anything spectacular to "adapt" to the situation rather than changing his build once he found dual proxy rax in the middle. Jaedong adapted by deveating his build into more greedy to try to get into an advantagous position in the lategame.
Do you even know what the word adapt means? We got a Flash revisionist historian here.
Explain to me then. How did Effort adapt better than jaedong? How can you even compare the games?
The argument was Effort adapted better than jaedong. Go ahead...
On May 30 2010 23:30 TwoToneTerran wrote: Effort 9 scouted 14CC and ling rushed him. That's adapting moreso than Jaedong because his strategy worked, I suppose.
Yeah, so thats one game. Effort scouted 14CC and chose a ling allin rush. Jaedong scouted the same and did a hydra all in push.
Effort managed to win because flash's buildings were placed bad, something that flash fixed in his game vs Jaedong, and Jaedongs all in ALMOST worked aswell. It was really close.
So thats one game, can you really compare the two players from that game and tell Effort is better at adapting than Jaedong? No you can't and thats what I'm trying to say.
On May 30 2010 23:00 TwoToneTerran wrote: Are you insane? The old rankings were even less prone to changing. Savior staying over Bisu despite losing, Nada staying over Anytime despite losing, etc etc. They valued the content of the games rather than the pure statistical value moreso then than now.
I like how you criticize people and then get your facts wrong, genius bro.
On May 31 2010 00:13 TwoToneTerran wrote: Haha I can't wait for you to get banned.
heres some quotes for you:
On June 13 2009 03:43 Chill wrote: To everyone in general:
You realize the Power Rank is subjective, right? Stop treating it like an objective list. That means post your opinions and defend them. Question other's opinions. But please stop acting like there's one answer that we all need to agree on.
On June 13 2009 04:44 Avidkeystamper wrote: Bisu completely abused Effort during his "streak" and you would favor Effort over Bisu?
Personally I would favour Bisu over Effort, but I believe Effort has been playing better, more consistent Starcraft (if that makes sense).
That makes total sense, and it gets at a really simple point about my PR philosophy: the rank should be based on both "who is better right now (i.e. who would win an ideal Bo5)" and "who was most impressive over the last month". Even if Bisu may still be a slight favorite in a hypothetical Bo5, Effort has earned his #1 spot by simply posting better results recently.
Now perhaps you actually see where this argument comes from yes?
Effort didn't post better results than Flash, even if you want to say that. It goes back to when Flash stayed over Jaedong despite Jaedong beating him in the MSL -- Flash was in 2 finals, won one of them, and still has the most dominant PL showing of all time.
I don't mind if you want to put Effort over Jaedong or vice versa, they're both close enough for most opinions on the matter to be valid, but no one deserves to be over Flash, plain and simple.
On June 13 2009 05:49 JWD wrote: That makes total sense, and it gets at a really simple point about my PR philosophy: the rank should be based on both "who is better right now (i.e. who would win an ideal Bo5)" and "who was most impressive over the last month". Even if Bisu may still be a slight favorite in a hypothetical Bo5, Effort has earned his #1 spot by simply posting better results recently.
it might help you to recall that this quote comes from a power rank where effort was ranked first for defeating jaedong(who was listed #1 at the time) and posting a good month, and then the following month dropped off the list entirely. Also note that not only did effort defeat flash in a bo5, but it was for the OSL(aka pinnacle of starcraft), and he was 0-2 to start, and its zvt and tough maps, i think that qualifies as pretty darn impressive at least for the last month.
Also many fans were not happy with the ranking of effort above JD and Bisu, but they did it anyway
Effort dropping off the list the next month is a testament to how volatile rewarding someone for one success is -- remember when JWD ranked Zero over Jaedong and TheZerg over Calm? Bad mistakes that he quickly rescinded the next month. Regardless, you're really loopy if you think winning the OSL is better than winning the MSL and getting silver in the OSL.
I don't care who is who's fan, Effort shouldn't be over Flash. Period. He didn't achieve as much, nor is his gameplay particularly better.
On May 31 2010 00:48 TwoToneTerran wrote: Effort dropping off the list the next month is a testament to how volatile rewarding someone for one success is. Regardless, you're really loopy if you think winning the OSL is better than winning the MSL and getting silver in the OSL.
I don't care who is who's fan, Effort shouldn't be over Flash. Period. He didn't achieve as much, nor is his gameplay particularly better.
Oh its an achievement rank now? gameplay rank? Come on man, welcome to the world of dissenting opinions. I find it amusing that the situation i refer to is almost an exact parallel to the current one except in that case we had JD and Bisu in contention and now its Flash and JD.
And low and behold here comes lil Effort AGAIN to knock off the champ and steal his mouse(if only for a brief flickering of time)
Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is?
On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote: Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is?
You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan.
But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours
Don't get me started, I argued the fuck out of JWD for awhile.
And Chill's statement isn't a free ride for a randomass power rank. I can put Hoejja and Nal_rA at the top of my power rank because I think they're really cool dudes but that doesn't make it reasonable or intelligent, just so inanely biased that it's obviously wrong.
counterargument: everyone hated JWD's power ranks, they were the worst in the history of the PR and showcased extreme bias justified by whatever arguments available
On May 31 2010 01:10 o[twist] wrote: counterargument: everyone hated JWD's power ranks, they were the worst in the history of the PR and showcased extreme bias justified by whatever arguments available
I'm not sure you understand the current BW scene, Jonathan. Flash and Jaedong have been the uncontested #1 and #2 since last October. There have been a few players who have had good streaks since then, like Light in Winner's League, but no one has been as consistently dominant as them. EffOrt has been playing well for slightly over a month, a feat far less impressive than playing well for over half a year.
You might point to the PR where Light and Sea were ranked above Jaedong. However, Jaedong was in a mini-slump then, as opposed to him being in excellent form right now. EffOrt has not shown the consistency required to be one of the top two players in the world. Period.
On May 31 2010 01:12 jalstar wrote: I'm not sure you understand the current BW scene, Jonathan. Flash and Jaedong have been the uncontested #1 and #2 since last October. There have been a few players who have had good streaks since then, like Light in Winner's League, but no one has been as consistently dominant as them. EffOrt has been playing well for slightly over a month, a feat far less impressive than playing well for over half a year.
You might point to the PR where Light and Sea were ranked above Jaedong. However, Jaedong was in a mini-slump then, as opposed to him being in excellent form right now. EffOrt has not shown the consistency required to be one of the top two players in the world. Period.
Everytime i see someone use the word "period", I think about a very strong willed horse stamping the ground until it makes a little hole and gets his hoof stuck in it
On May 31 2010 01:10 o[twist] wrote: counterargument: everyone hated JWD's power ranks, they were the worst in the history of the PR and showcased extreme bias justified by whatever arguments available
Negative, SKT1 fans loved JWD power ranks
God, remember the time when flash was in a tournament finals WITHOUT a single loss and JWD didn't even put him on PR? So much rage back then.
On May 31 2010 01:10 o[twist] wrote: counterargument: everyone hated JWD's power ranks, they were the worst in the history of the PR and showcased extreme bias justified by whatever arguments available
Negative, SKT1 fans loved JWD power ranks
God, remember the time when flash was in a tournament finals WITHOUT a single loss and JWD didn't even put him on PR? So much rage back then.
Nope, actually not. Flash didn't deserve to be in the PR in that month since he was out early in the MSL, OSL and PL. Everyone on that rank deserved it more than Flash.
And most of the Flash fanboys even agreed with it since at that time Flash didnt show any signs of recovery.
Of course then Flash proved us wrong with starting his domination. But Flash out of that PR was justified.
The only problem with that rank was the hypocrisy of stuff like Bisu still at #3 and the SKT fandom etc etc. Also the "Flash's TvZ is bad" argument when he was 6-2 TvZ. We didn't argue with it because we were tired of arguing and no one believed us that he was still good. Flash kind of made up for it.
On May 31 2010 01:10 o[twist] wrote: counterargument: everyone hated JWD's power ranks, they were the worst in the history of the PR and showcased extreme bias justified by whatever arguments available
Negative, SKT1 fans loved JWD power ranks
God, remember the time when flash was in a tournament finals WITHOUT a single loss and JWD didn't even put him on PR? So much rage back then.
Nope, actually not. Flash didn't deserve to be in the PR in that month since he was out early in the MSL, OSL and PL. Everyone on that rank deserved it more than Flash.
And most of the Flash fanboys even agreed with it since at that time Flash didnt show any signs of recovery.
Of course then Flash proved us wrong with starting his domination. But Flash out of that PR was justified.
Those who agreed weren't flash fanboys, I'll never accept that. But it's just my opinion and luckily we don't have to discuss Flash's positon in current PRs.
On May 31 2010 02:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: The only problem with that rank was the hypocrisy of stuff like Bisu still at #3 and the SKT fandom etc etc. Also the "Flash's TvZ is bad" argument when he was 6-2 TvZ. We didn't argue with it because we were tired of arguing and no one believed us that he was still good. Flash kind of made up for it.
Yeah, but losing a bo3 to Kwanro, BBSing Effort and barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up) isn't a testament of good TvZ? :p
I mean its like saying Effort 3-2ed Flash in the OSL finals, his ZvT must be S+class.
On May 30 2010 11:47 JonathanJohnson wrote: Effort #1 Flash #2 Jaedong #3
First of all this is a power rank not an ELO recap. As I have heard some of the admins describe it, this ranking is more weighted towards the relative change in the players performance as well as big events and other high interest games then raw performance.
If so, coming from a team whose star has been discredited and whose team cast into ignominy ,coming back from a 0-2 deficit against one of the (if not the) best players in the world, playing on unfavorable maps and in the statistically most imbalanced and unfair match-up, and winning the most prestigious starleague for the first time in the players career, would almost have to be enough to catapult any player to the number 1 spot, even if that player was not the most technically skilled.
I am not an effort fan, just trying to throw out a semi-unbiased opinion.
What is Power? That's what we're ranking.
Now, of course some of this is subjective, but I like to think that the best justification for Power Rank placement ever given was Mani's last February. While perhaps you can say that "Who would Vader pick to own your ass?" is an over-dramatic criterion, this is really the same question as "Who is the overwhelming favorite?"
Here's a newsflash for you: Flash is the favorite right now against anybody, with any amount of prep time, in a PL match, in an ace match, in a Bo3, in a Bo5, in a Best-of-infinity. Yes, even though he lost to EffOrt and Snow.
Flash was a huge favorite in the OSL - and only lost 3-2, from a 2-0 lead, which is as close as you can get to winning and not win. He demolished Jaedong in three straight games and Jaedong has been his closest (sometimes only) competition for the last six months. His Proleague record is impeccable apart from the match against CJ, and even that's no shame.
And if you played Flash vs. EffOrt Bo5 100 times, Flash would be favored 100 times right now, and Flash would probably win at least 75 times.
There's no question that EffOrt's accomplishment is phenomenal and could reasonably put him ahead of Jaedong for the time being. But even though he beat Flash, Flash is still the better player by almost any metric you can name.
But you're arguing that EffOrt's change-in-position makes him #1. If anything, most PR writers (and even more of the readers), expect the PR to reduce the impact of sudden changes unless they're truly devestating. You know what might have earned EffOrt #1? A 3-0 win. Even 3-1 could make an argument. But this is not Bisu vs sAviOr (and Bisu didn't even earn #1 for that piece of seismic activity). This was a close finals that EffOrt arguably wouldn't have had a shot at if Flash had played his standard safe game instead of cheesing. Flash got out-thought, not out-played (on the whole, the no-medic thing was idiotic), and still only lost by a single game.
While I'm inclined to call troll, I think you're really just having a totally different expectation from the PR than many of the rest of us.
On May 31 2010 02:04 TwoToneTerran wrote: The only problem with that rank was the hypocrisy of stuff like Bisu still at #3 and the SKT fandom etc etc. Also the "Flash's TvZ is bad" argument when he was 6-2 TvZ. We didn't argue with it because we were tired of arguing and no one believed us that he was still good. Flash kind of made up for it.
The real problem for me was the next month when Bisu got knocked out of the MSL like a dork (okay, Iris did play some sweet Starcraft) and only slipped a single spot. That was what really screamed inconsistency. But yeah.
Man, I'm so happy right now (I know I'm little late to the party, but I wasn't able to watch the final live). I was preparing lots of totaly obnoxious stuff if Flash wins, to rub it in the face of all the haters and doubters, but that would be really unfair to JD and his reasonable fans. The haters got shut up by Flash himself anyway.
So I will keep it to minimum and just say this: Look at the #1 PR, look at the guy on the top of the Starcraft word and remember his name and face. Because no matter how hard you hate him, he ain't going anywhere soon!
While I would prefer 5 epic games and 3:2 victory, 3:0 will do as well. It tastes even sweeter now, after the OSL loss.
I quite curious for the rest of the rank...don't know how I would personaly sorted out JD vs Effort and Baby vs Kal...
On May 31 2010 02:12 SuperArc wrote: barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up)
How the hell can you call 3-0 "barely winning". Results aside, the games weren't even remotely close.
It's not a coincidence that SuperArc is an anagram for CrapUser. At least this new JonathanJohnson guy is giving you some competition.
The games weren't even remotely close? hahaha
Not only JonathanJohnson gives me competition, but you too.
Flash destroyed July so thoroughly that no one took the series seriously -- everyone just assumed July didn't know how to play ZvT anymore. That's why those games weren't given much weight on the Power Rank (plus being in GOM).
Whether Flash was playing brilliantly or July was playing terribly (probably both), the first convincing sign of Flash's TvZ recovery was when he did the same thing to Effort a few weeks later. But the perceived unimportance of the Flash vs July series had nothing to do with any supposed lack of domination on Flash's part.
It eludes me to imagine what kind of reality filter you need to view the Flash vs July series as "barely winning".
it's true flash slaughtered july and took down effort convincingly but if i remember correctly the first "holy fuckmycock flash is back" game was the one against hero
On May 31 2010 02:12 SuperArc wrote: barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up)
How the hell can you call 3-0 "barely winning". Results aside, the games weren't even remotely close.
It's not a coincidence that SuperArc is an anagram for CrapUser. At least this new JonathanJohnson guy is giving you some competition.
The games weren't even remotely close? hahaha
Not only JonathanJohnson gives me competition, but you too.
Flash destroyed July so thoroughly that no one took the series seriously -- everyone just assumed July didn't know how to play ZvT anymore. That's why those games weren't given much weight on the Power Rank (plus being in GOM).
Whether Flash was playing brilliantly or July was playing terribly (probably both), the first convincing sign of Flash's TvZ recovery was when he did the same thing to Effort a few weeks later. But the perceived unimportance of the Flash vs July series had nothing to do with any supposed lack of domination on Flash's part.
It eludes me to imagine what kind of reality filter you need to view the Flash vs July series as "barely winning".
Oh yeah I must be living in some weirdo reality. Me and tons of others. I just looked at the LR thread and I chose one comment which should leave no doubt.
On July 20 2009 21:58 Day[9] wrote: in my humble but entirely correct opinion
all games were heavily in favor of july fjsldghskalfjdsagldsa
how on earth did he lose ANY of those, let alone all three -_-
So, okum. Are you trying to say you know more about sc than day9?
On May 31 2010 02:12 SuperArc wrote: barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up)
How the hell can you call 3-0 "barely winning". Results aside, the games weren't even remotely close.
It's not a coincidence that SuperArc is an anagram for CrapUser. At least this new JonathanJohnson guy is giving you some competition.
The games weren't even remotely close? hahaha
Not only JonathanJohnson gives me competition, but you too.
Flash destroyed July so thoroughly that no one took the series seriously -- everyone just assumed July didn't know how to play ZvT anymore. That's why those games weren't given much weight on the Power Rank (plus being in GOM).
Whether Flash was playing brilliantly or July was playing terribly (probably both), the first convincing sign of Flash's TvZ recovery was when he did the same thing to Effort a few weeks later. But the perceived unimportance of the Flash vs July series had nothing to do with any supposed lack of domination on Flash's part.
It eludes me to imagine what kind of reality filter you need to view the Flash vs July series as "barely winning".
Oh yeah I must be living in some weirdo reality. Me and tons of others. I just looked at the LR thread and I chose one comment which should leave no doubt.
On July 20 2009 21:58 Day[9] wrote: in my humble but entirely correct opinion
all games were heavily in favor of july fjsldghskalfjdsagldsa
how on earth did he lose ANY of those, let alone all three -_-
So, okum. Are you trying to say you know more about sc than day9?
If not, I want an apology for calling me insane.
July played like an idiot that series in the late game.
His mid game was brilliant, best power macro heavy hatch late hive zerg I've seen, he would've crushed any terran back then with his midgame, he simply out macrod and out supplied Flash, but dear god his late game was friggin horrible and was totally outclassed by Flash. I mean he had like 2 groups of units running around and doing nothing in Medusa.
The games were close and awesome, especially the game on HBr, but you could easily see that Flash was the superior player in the late game, that series imo is where Flash's TvZ suddenly awakened and turned on god mode, his management was simply unreal, his tank line and marine micro on medusa was fantastic, and that hold on the mind only on HBr was pretty insane with those vessels to snipe the defilers.
Flash's TvZ was pretty bad before that series,but during that series he suddenly turned on and awakened god mode. He raped Effort with just as much ease in WCG too. I would use that game as a transition point for Flash's strong TvZ rather than an example of his weak TvZ, you shouldve used his games vs Yarnc/Jaedong/Kwanro instead.
But overall I agree with you, that series was a lot closer than people gave it credit to, and I enjoyed it a lot, very heavy on macro with sick defence from Flash, July kept throwing units which was the bad part, but the games were really sick and I would highly recommend them.
I think the discussion is pointless though. The PR is pretty much determined 1) Flash 2/3) Effort/Jaedong- whether you give credit to Effort's early game is going to be the main factor, it's a toss up, this month effort played much better than jaedong for sure though considering the finals performance( even though the Flash that played against Jaedong seemed stronger and more complete than the one that faced effort, but that's a different story) 4-10) Who cares, arbitary people doing decently in PL.
On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote: Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is?
You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan.
But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours
You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say?
Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak.
Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months.
Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results.
I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't.
On May 31 2010 02:12 SuperArc wrote: barely winning a bo5 against JULY (score was 3-0 yes, but only cuz July fucked up)
How the hell can you call 3-0 "barely winning". Results aside, the games weren't even remotely close.
It's not a coincidence that SuperArc is an anagram for CrapUser. At least this new JonathanJohnson guy is giving you some competition.
The games weren't even remotely close? hahaha
Not only JonathanJohnson gives me competition, but you too.
Flash destroyed July so thoroughly that no one took the series seriously -- everyone just assumed July didn't know how to play ZvT anymore. That's why those games weren't given much weight on the Power Rank (plus being in GOM).
Whether Flash was playing brilliantly or July was playing terribly (probably both), the first convincing sign of Flash's TvZ recovery was when he did the same thing to Effort a few weeks later. But the perceived unimportance of the Flash vs July series had nothing to do with any supposed lack of domination on Flash's part.
It eludes me to imagine what kind of reality filter you need to view the Flash vs July series as "barely winning".
Oh yeah I must be living in some weirdo reality. Me and tons of others. I just looked at the LR thread and I chose one comment which should leave no doubt.
On July 20 2009 21:58 Day[9] wrote: in my humble but entirely correct opinion
all games were heavily in favor of july fjsldghskalfjdsagldsa
how on earth did he lose ANY of those, let alone all three -_-
So, okum. Are you trying to say you know more about sc than day9?
If not, I want an apology for calling me insane.
July got (varying degrees of) early-game advantages, and then Flash demolished him with vastly superior play. The series was exciting, but it was all too visible throughout how dominant Flash was. Even if Flash was in danger of losing one or two games (this is debatable -- you always have to factor in Flash's extreme ability to recover from unfavorable positions), July was nowhere near winning that series.
On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote: Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is?
You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan.
But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours
You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say?
Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak.
Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months.
Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results.
I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't.
Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote: Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is?
You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan.
But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours
You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say?
Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak.
Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months.
Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results.
I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't.
Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
Did you join TeamLiquid just to participate in a Power Rank discussion? Honest question.
On May 31 2010 03:50 JonathanJohnson wrote: Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
Find me one (1) specific example of a similar circumstance garnering #1. I already pointed out Bisu not getting #1 when he 3-0'd sAviOr. You have to do that first, and I don't think you can.
But then you'd at least have an argument from precedent, even if your actual argument doesn't hold water (hint: no one is agreeing with you).
For bonus points/plausibility points, then show me where/how this particular PR writer (Plexa) has used or is likely to use this line of reasoning, or how EffOrt #1 is consistent with Plexa's standards for PR.
That's your challenge. When you can do one or both of those things, I'll be prepared to continue the argument.
On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote: Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is?
You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan.
But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours
You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say?
Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak.
Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months.
Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results.
I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't.
Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
Did you join TeamLiquid just to participate in a Power Rank discussion? Honest question.
this must be plexa or JWD trolling, nobody could argue for effort > flash without hidden devious (yet obvious) ploys
Jonathan might also want to read Plexa's blog on the OSL finals and Effort (I don't particularly agree with what he writes). Despite his bias, I don't expect Plexa to be unfair and Effort will most likely be ranked 2/3. Which is where he should go.
On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote: Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is?
You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan.
But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours
You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say?
Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak.
Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months.
Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results.
I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't.
Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
Did you join TeamLiquid just to participate in a Power Rank discussion? Honest question.
this must be plexa or JWD trolling, nobody could argue for effort > flash without hidden devious (yet obvious) ploys
On May 31 2010 03:50 JonathanJohnson wrote: Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
Find me one (1) specific example of a similar circumstance garnering #1. I already pointed out Bisu not getting #1 when he 3-0'd sAviOr. You have to do that first, and I don't think you can.
But then you'd at least have an argument from precedent, even if your actual argument doesn't hold water (hint: no one is agreeing with you).
For bonus points/plausibility points, then show me where/how this particular PR writer (Plexa) has used or is likely to use this line of reasoning, or how EffOrt #1 is consistent with Plexa's standards for PR.
That's your challenge. When you can do one or both of those things, I'll be prepared to continue the argument.
Not sure why you wouldnt bother to read the thread before posting, or is that my challenge too?
On May 31 2010 00:56 TwoToneTerran wrote: Gasp, achievements and gameplay factor into a power rank. Goddamn you are ridiculous.
Effort isn't 25-3 or whatever ridiculous number it was last time. Last time there were no titles involved, and very little series play. It's a totally different situation with totally different factors and all your arguments are "Fans are stupid!" and the he posted better results, when he didn't.
I mean, if you want me to use your ridiculous argument style against you, this isn't the OSL ranking. This isn't the results ranking. See how stupid that is?
You arent arguing with me anymore, you are arguing with the makers of this ranking whose quotes you made me dredge up from several months ago, ty for that. So if you please address them and not me in the future. And note going 25-3 and winning a starleague against tremendous odds are not very different. I would compare it to Buster Douglas tagging Mike Tyson in Japan.
But anyway we all have our opinions, hopefully this little discussion gives you a slightly different perspective on things even if you decide not to change yours
You're being incredibly inconsistent. You want to put Effort over Flash for his recent result of beating flash in the OSL finals, ignoring that Flash just played back-to-back dual finals, and yet here you are dredging up the old result of Effort's monstrous (mostly proleague) run from roughly one year ago, 25-3 as you say?
Yes, Effort looked brilliant at that time. Then he started to collapse, as I recall, falling out of the OSL Ro16, getting 3-0'd by Calm in MSL and getting 3-0'd by Iris in GOM, enduring a painful 8 loss streak.
Yes, Effort had a good month this month. The best month he could possibly hope for. But it still doesn't compare to going gold/silver, destroying top player after top player for months.
Power rank is subjective, as you say, but fundamentally it's about who is playing the best, not who achieved the best statistics. If it were, then #1 would go to Classic, who was 3-0 in sanctioned matches and 7-0 counting offline prelim results.
I notice you're giving credit to Effort for prevailing as an underdog. It's all well and good to like an underdog story, but there's a reason why he is the underdog. If Effort met Flash today in a bo5, like a Superfight event, would you now consider Flash the underdog? If you have any sense you wouldn't. Flash is the stronger, more proven player. Effort got the best of him that day. Effort won the metagame battle that day. Jaedong played every bit as good and didn't.
Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
Did you join TeamLiquid just to participate in a Power Rank discussion? Honest question.
Ive come here off and on over the years, never really felt inclined to post before. I was pretty completely shocked to see that Effort won the OSL especially from being down 2-0 vs MrTvZ himself, cant remember ever seeing a bigger upset, although i wasnt around in the savior-bisu days.
There are some interesting posts here, but I dont recall anything about this ranking having a surge protector and anything less of a lightning strike than that result well...(although dual finals gold silver is pretty nice) I guess you might ask who made the brightest Flash? =D
I have no idea who deserves #2 more between Effort and JD. There is no clear favourite in my eyes. It's very subjective.
I'm indescribably happy that the God of Terran managed to overcome that final hurdle; beating JD in a Bo5 (in a final). And he did it by crushing him 3-0 as well, something only Frogg had ever done before (at least I think so)! He's 100 ELO points ahead of #2 once again and he's bound to break the Kespa point record as well. And I do not foresee a slump incoming anytime soon, the fact that he bounced back from the OSL loss so fast shows how strong he has become mentally. He's obviously still the clear #1 on the scene, and JD/Nada has some serious competition in the race for the position as GOAT now that the Ultimate Weapon is starting to get the titles that his talent deserves. The next Starleague season will be very interesting.
On May 31 2010 04:58 Holgerius wrote: I have no idea who deserves #2 more between Effort and JD. There is no clear favourite in my eyes. It's very subjective.
Come now we cant give flash third place, that would just be wrong
On a different note, this Power Rank has more comments than any PR since the one for May last year. Incidentally, that was the month after which Effort hit #1! The guy sure generates conversation
(Also, there was the issue of the Kespa dog that month.)
First of all this is a power rank not an ELO recap. As I have heard some of the admins describe it, this ranking is more weighted towards the relative change in the players performance as well as big events and other high interest games then raw performance.
Where do you get that idea? The PR is about absolute recent power plus discounted past power. What is "power"? A combination of results and subjective evaluation of a player's play.
Effort does not deserve to be ranked higher because he played like shit last month: quite the opposite, in fact.
On May 31 2010 02:15 Musoeun wrote: There's no question that EffOrt's accomplishment is phenomenal and could reasonably put him ahead of Jaedong for the time being. But even though he beat Flash, Flash is still the better player by almost any metric you can name.
But you're arguing that EffOrt's change-in-position makes him #1. If anything, most PR writers (and even more of the readers), expect the PR to reduce the impact of sudden changes unless they're truly devestating. You know what might have earned EffOrt #1? A 3-0 win. Even 3-1 could make an argument. But this is not Bisu vs sAviOr (and Bisu didn't even earn #1 for that piece of seismic activity). This was a close finals that EffOrt arguably wouldn't have had a shot at if Flash had played his standard safe game instead of cheesing. Flash got out-thought, not out-played (on the whole, the no-medic thing was idiotic), and still only lost by a single game.
Im so tired of all these Flash fanboys making johns for the OSL finals results. On one hand, everyone considers SC to be akin to Chess, yet on the other, when Flash loses in a Best of 5 it somehow becomes a valid excuse to say "Oh. He got out-thought not out-played." Effort is something like 20-2 since the super tiebreaker (and 4-2 vs Flash). Effort beat Flash, then Flash beat Jaedong. That sounds about as valid a #1 #2 #3 ranking as you can get. Flash got out-done by Effort. No excuse changes that.
Sea.Blue, can't you see any reasonable arguement for Flash getting #1 in next PR? I'm just asking...
"Effort beat Flash, then Flash beat Jaedong. That sounds about as valid a #1 #2 #3 ranking as you can get. Flash got out-done by Effort. No excuse changes that." It's not that simple.
On May 31 2010 02:15 Musoeun wrote: There's no question that EffOrt's accomplishment is phenomenal and could reasonably put him ahead of Jaedong for the time being. But even though he beat Flash, Flash is still the better player by almost any metric you can name.
But you're arguing that EffOrt's change-in-position makes him #1. If anything, most PR writers (and even more of the readers), expect the PR to reduce the impact of sudden changes unless they're truly devestating. You know what might have earned EffOrt #1? A 3-0 win. Even 3-1 could make an argument. But this is not Bisu vs sAviOr (and Bisu didn't even earn #1 for that piece of seismic activity). This was a close finals that EffOrt arguably wouldn't have had a shot at if Flash had played his standard safe game instead of cheesing. Flash got out-thought, not out-played (on the whole, the no-medic thing was idiotic), and still only lost by a single game.
Im so tired of all these Flash fanboys making johns for the OSL finals results. On one hand, everyone considers SC to be akin to Chess, yet on the other, when Flash loses in a Best of 5 it somehow becomes a valid excuse to say "Oh. He got out-thought not out-played." Effort is something like 20-2 since the super tiebreaker (and 4-2 vs Flash). Effort beat Flash, then Flash beat Jaedong. That sounds about as valid a #1 #2 #3 ranking as you can get. Flash got out-done by Effort. No excuse changes that.
Flash lost to Effort fair and square, no question.
Flash is also a lot better at Starcraft than Effort and he just won a gold and a silver to Effort's gold.
#1 PR has never been more obvious.
edit:
On May 31 2010 05:54 See.Blue wrote: Snow beat Flash, then Flash beat Jaedong. That sounds about as valid a #1 #2 #3 ranking as you can get. Flash got out-done by Snow. No excuse changes that.
Surely you see the problem with your reasoning? Favorites lose games and even series, but it takes worse than a 2-3 loss and a 3-0 win (in simultaneous starleague finals) to unseat Flash from his throne.
Yes Effort is like 15-2 in his last 17, but before that he was pretty awful. Since the start of April he's 19-8, whereas Flash has twice as many wins and one more loss.
Yes Effort won a best of five against Flash, but can any of you say you watch that series and thought "wow Effort is amazing" instead of "wow Flash threw that away". I don't think you can. Yes he is 4-2 against Flash recently but he simply cannot compete in a management game. If you go lurkers vs. valkyries and can't finish the game there are some serious concerns about your play, even if you end up with the win.
Flash himself said that once he was up 2-0 he lost focus. Effort made him pay with a nice 2-hatch build in game 3, nobody can deny that - but games 4 and 5 were hardly inspired. Heck, we can even boil this down to Gold + Silver vs. Gold if that makes it easier for you.
(This is directed at See.Blue as I have to assume Jonathan is a troll.)
On May 31 2010 03:50 JonathanJohnson wrote: Power ranks are not consistent nor the criteria consistent over time, and comparing unknown criteria is very subjective. There is a very legitimate argument that effort had the most impressive month (you may disagree here but thats the opinion part) and according to some previous power ranks and the basis for them as written by the creators, that is enough for #1.
Find me one (1) specific example of a similar circumstance garnering #1. I already pointed out Bisu not getting #1 when he 3-0'd sAviOr. You have to do that first, and I don't think you can.
But then you'd at least have an argument from precedent, even if your actual argument doesn't hold water (hint: no one is agreeing with you).
For bonus points/plausibility points, then show me where/how this particular PR writer (Plexa) has used or is likely to use this line of reasoning, or how EffOrt #1 is consistent with Plexa's standards for PR.
That's your challenge. When you can do one or both of those things, I'll be prepared to continue the argument.
Not sure why you wouldnt bother to read the thread before posting, or is that my challenge too?
I don't even know what this means, but I think you're trying to tell me I didn't read the thread. I have. I'll deal with your purported examples here - no, I am not going to debate this, I am going to tell you why they fail - and then yes, that was a challenge to you. Go find good examples and I'll listen.
You brought up a total of two points, neither one of which meets either criteria of my challenge. Your first example, which you mention indirectly and without hard numbers/accomplishments, is the rank last June when EffOrt made #1. That rank's top five were: EffOrt, Bisu, Jaedong, Flash, Leta. Bisu dropped from the previous rank, Jaedong and Flash climbed, and Leta stayed the same.
Here are the records:
#1 EffOrt: 16-1. That's a 94% winrate. His single loss was to Mind in a Bo3 in GOM that he won. He progressed in GOM, MSL, and OSL, as well as a perfect proleague record. This is probably the closest anyone has ever come to a perfect month of progaming. I don't know, maybe oov did better at some point.
#2 Bisu: 7-3. That's a 70% winrate (a 20% drop-off) and not much more than half as many games. He was not playing in GOM, out of the OSL, played one game in the MSL which he lost to Jangbi, and obviously went 7-2 in Proleague. He made #2 by beating Jaedong soundly after JD made a crucial mistake in the opening.
#3 Jaedong: 9-3 (75%). He was #3 because first, 3 of his wins were crushing some noob in GOM, and second, he lost to Bisu. Again, nowhere close to EffOrt's performance that month.
#4 Flash: 9-3 (75%). #4 mainly because at this point he hadn't showed that he was playing at the Bisu-Jaedong level (even though his record was identical to Jaedong's). Really a toss-up though.
#5 Leta: 6-2 (75%). No leagues, and lost to both Flash and Jaedong.
Summary: No one was anywhere close to EffOrt that month. NOWHERE CLOSE. Not in number of games, not in number of wins, not in play quality. EffOrt was furthermore already on the PR from the previous rank (#6). Additionally, there was no question that month of league titles. Gold and silver didn't factor into the argument AT ALL.
In contrast, this month's apparent top three:
EffOrt: 9-2 (82%). 3-0 Kal. Both losses against Flash who he ultimately beat. OSL gold. Perfect PL performance, including a win against Flash. Very very good, definitely. Flash: 17-5 (77%). All four losses to EffOrt. A loss to Snow in proleague. More than twice as many games as EffOrt, half again as many as Jaedong. OSL silver. MSL gold, beating Jaedong (gold standard for Bo5) 3-0. Previously #1 for the last several months. Jaedong: 12-4[ (75%). MSL silver. 3-1 Calm. 3 of those losses to Flash. Perfect in proleague.
Summary: all three at the top are extremely close. EffOrt has a slight edge in quality of wins and head-to-head (4-0 Flash is extremely impressive), but this month really is a streak far different from previous play. Flash had a much heavier workload, gets a higher total medal count (2 > 1) than either competitor, and of course 3-0 against Jaedong. Jaedong is a touch behind either competitor this month, but has shown stronger play for a longer stretch than either even if he's currently a touch behind Flash.
Conclusion: Your example fails. The difference is far less this time, and the change from the previous months is completely different. Try again. (Note: if this month was completely isolated, you could make an argument for EffOrt #1, but it would still be a shaky argument, because of Flash's gold+silver and huge accomplishment in beating Jaedong 3-0 vastly outweighs EffOrt's barely defeating Flash.)
Your second argument was based on something JWD said a while ago. I'll quote it again:
On June 13 2009 05:49 JWD wrote: That makes total sense, and it gets at a really simple point about my PR philosophy: the rank should be based on both "who is better right now (i.e. who would win an ideal Bo5)" and "who was most impressive over the last month". Even if Bisu may still be a slight favorite in a hypothetical Bo5, Effort has earned his #1 spot by simply posting better results recently.
This fails on two levels. The most basic is that JWD is (most likely) not writing the PR. As the PR is somewhat subjective, calling on Plexa (or us) to abide by JWD's vision seems... strange.
The second is that your argument doesn't meet these criteria. The clear favorites (favorite = "should win a hypothetical game played right this moment to see who's better", not "who actually won") right now are:
Flash > Jaedong Flash > EffOrt Jaedong ??? EffOrt
EffOrt should probably be ranked over JD this month because he overcame those odds to actually win, but let's not lose sight of the fact that Flash would be the favorite even now if we somehow went back in time and re-did the OSL final.
And who was most impressive last month?
Major accomplishments: EffOrt: 4-2 vs Flash, OSL gold. Flash: MSL gold, 3-0 Jaedong, OSL silver. Jaedong: MSL silver
EffOrt's accomplishment is... beating the clearly most accomplished player, and, yes, getting an OSL gold out of it. But 3-2 vs Flash - even 4-2 - simply is not the caliber of domination of a 3-0 vs Jaedong. Simply not.
So by JWD's own criteria - which don't reasonably apply to Plexa's PR in the first place - your argument falls apart.
Please find some better examples if you want to argue this further.
I am for #1 Flash all the way, havent said otherwise since months. #2, #3 is a tossup between JD and Effort.
But what I really don't like is how everyone is saying odds are low that Effort wins another bo5 against Flash. Why is that?
If you call that win a fluke, well then I call Flash's win vs JD a fluke too.
Fact is, Flash got gold+silver, LOST a bo5 to Effort (if they rematch, I'd say its 60-40 favoured towards Flash, because he has more experience in bo5s)
But I'd also say JD vs Flash is 50-50 (except we get Thriatlon and Odd-Eye again).
Seems like the games vs Effort was very important for flash and we could clearly see in his Bo5 vs Jaedong that he had fixed the things he lacked.
He scouted earlier and was more cautious with building walls etc. We saw what happened to effort if he didn't get a huge early lead or had a successful ling runby, hell he even got away with a 3hatch before pool build where all hatches were on different expansions and we saw what happened as soon as the game lasted over 10 minutes...
If flash corrects his errors, which he has, Effort is clearly the underdog in another Bo5.
That said, Effort is playing better and better and I hope he can show us some awesome games vs Flash in the future that doesn't rely on him winning in the early game. Because you can't always rely on such things.
On May 31 2010 05:54 See.Blue wrote: Im so tired of all these Flash fanboys making johns for the OSL finals results. On one hand, everyone considers SC to be akin to Chess, yet on the other, when Flash loses in a Best of 5 it somehow becomes a valid excuse to say "Oh. He got out-thought not out-played." Effort is something like 20-2 since the super tiebreaker (and 4-2 vs Flash). Effort beat Flash, then Flash beat Jaedong. That sounds about as valid a #1 #2 #3 ranking as you can get. Flash got out-done by Effort. No excuse changes that.
When I say "out-thought not out-played", I'm not trying to take away from EffOrt's accomplishment, I'm just trying to make the point that Flash is still a favorite over EffOrt. If Flash played EffOrt again, single set, Best of 3, Best of 5, Best of 1349, Flash would be at least a 65% favorite. At a guess. (Also I'm not a Flash fanboy, I'm a Stork-ite.)
There's no question that EffOrt deserved the win, and played the last three sets absolutely correctly - but there's also no point ignoring the fact that Flash screwed up his BO choice. And yes, Flash made some bad decisions and some bad plays (no medics, poor building placement), so yes, in that sense EffOrt outplayed Flash. But to me, "out-play" has a connotation of bringing the excellence. To "outplay" someone you have to do better than their best. I realize that's not exactly the dictionary definition, so that's why I'm trying to clarify. Some examples: July out-played BeSt, not just because July absolutely dominated the series but because it's hard to say what BeSt really did wrong. Jaedong outplayed fantasy in Batoo (at least the last 3 sets) even if fantasy prepped his builds with far more care. Compared to that, this OSL was far far more a case of Flash screwing up.
I am not in any way trying to take away from EffOrt's accomplishment, or make excuses, I'm just talking about what I saw. If you will, the quintessential example of defeating the opponent without "outplaying" him was the Boxer 3x bunker rush. The execution was a part of it, yes (for instance, with modern building placement and micro that kind of stunt wouldn't have better than a 40% chance of succeeding unless if was Flash vs Juni or something) but that's primarily a "thinking" victory.
I hope that helps clear things up - I'm trying to explain what's really a kind of fuzzy distinction though.
I feel very confident that Flash has learned from his mistakes vs Effort. If they played a Bo5 today he would just make sure he gets to the late game without dying to lings and then ape-smash him.
I have already said this earlier; I think Effort deserved to beat Flash that day. He won 3 games, Flash won 2, simple as that. I have never said anything else. But that does not make him the better overall player, and I sincerly doubt he would be able to repeat it.
On May 31 2010 07:31 Holgerius wrote: I feel very confident that Flash has learned from his mistakes vs Effort. If they played a Bo5 today he would just make sure he gets to the late game without dying to lings and then ape-smash him.
I have already said this earlier; I think Effort deserved to beat Flash that day. He won 3 games, Flash won 2, simple as that. I have never said anything else. But that does not make him the better overall player, and I sincerly doubt he would be able to repeat it.
Agreed. Flash would easily be the favorite if they were to face each other again in a Bo5. The MSL games vs. JD were very good examples of how Flash learned to avoid exactly the mistakes that he made against EffOrt. Good scouting & good walls and a bit more careful play(Medics...) make Lee Young God Effort's worst nightmare.
Also: Guys, just ignore that Jonathan fellow. It's either Hot Bid in disguise or the most successful PR troll I've ever seen.
roro, shine, best, hyuk [and classic]?... roro mayyyybe, but no kal with all those guys is wtf. plus action, maybe shuttle, woongjin, etc. are playing well.
On May 31 2010 15:43 ]343[ wrote: roro, shine, best, hyuk [and classic]?... roro mayyyybe, but no kal with all those guys is wtf. plus action, maybe shuttle, woongjin, etc. are playing well.
Well, some of you points are valid indeed. I fixed my predictions accordingly.
Shine and Roro both have decent record in May. Classic was 100% in PL before he lost to Movie. Hyuk and Best are now the only hopes of SKT.
Kal choked hard against Effort... Wanted to erase him, but his PL record is fine. Action is horribly overrated. Horribly.
NOW we're talking about baby! easy #4. i think he would take snow but i tend to expect him to win against everyone except flash, which hasn't been quite the way things have worked out
also, there's no way classic is the third best terran. that would be an absurd and quickly reviled PR choice.