Hornag's 4-0 is worse than best's 4-0. His 9-1 is worse than best's 8-1. I'm not arguing horang shouldn't be on the list, just below best.
Power Rank 06/02/2011 - Page 15
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
Hornag's 4-0 is worse than best's 4-0. His 9-1 is worse than best's 8-1. I'm not arguing horang shouldn't be on the list, just below best. | ||
Elroi
Sweden5471 Posts
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
Bisu=forever proleague Best=lol Zero=ouch and more seriously wtf is this shit | ||
L0thar
987 Posts
Bisu nowadays is like Sea on steroids...damn it, I was really looking forward to his performance, I really like his PvZ. But it seems like we'll get another league full of boring ZvZ again. | ||
Yongtaek
Burkina Faso24 Posts
On June 18 2011 06:45 hacklebeast wrote: The point was that looking back 3 months and looking back 3 years are both stupid, and has no bearing on how they are doing now, unless your TBLS with years of history to float you after one lackluster month. Hornag's 4-0 is worse than best's 4-0. His 9-1 is worse than best's 8-1. I'm not arguing horang shouldn't be on the list, just below best. Best just got knocked out of hte OSL in his marquee matchup by a Wemade B-list terran. That should settle this debate. | ||
VGhost
United States3602 Posts
On June 18 2011 06:45 hacklebeast wrote: The point was that looking back 3 months and looking back 3 years are both stupid, and has no bearing on how they are doing now, unless your TBLS with years of history to float you after one lackluster month. Hornag's 4-0 is worse than best's 4-0. His 9-1 is worse than best's 8-1. I'm not arguing horang shouldn't be on the list, just below best. I see that you can argue that, on the month, BeSt's faced better players, because he has. Flash is a huge win, Bogus has been hot, and Grape and Really are okay. Wooki and Lazy are rookies and Much is older: Killer's Horang2's best win. I don't buy the 9-1 being worse than the 8-1 though, for a few reasons. One is Bisu. Another is Jaedong. Another is Shuttle. Every one a win for Horang2 last month when the best BeSt beat was Really's 47% winrate. And for losses, Stork is better than TurN. Also, it's not "9-1 worse than 8-1", it's 12-4 vs 8-1, or if we stick to Proleague, 11-3 vs 8-1. Horang2 has more losses, but also more wins - and I have no doubt that Horang2 would beat BeSt hollow, certainly in a BoX series. Finally, Horang2 has been playing well for months now, which ordinarily means a player is cut more slack. BeSt showed up out of nowhere at the end of April. Horang2 is the best Protoss on his team, while BeSt plays a clear 2nd place. History doesn't just apply to TLBS, even though they're the most obvious beneficiaries: you play well for a long period, you get extra consideration. In short, while there may be an argument to be made for BeSt, it's hardly the obvious ordering you consider it. It's also true that I'm probably a bigger fan of Horang2 than BeSt, so I'm going to look at things a little differently than you. | ||
Yongtaek
Burkina Faso24 Posts
1. Flash The next couple are a little less clear cut. 2-3. Hydra Hydra made it to the semis of the MSL, where he met Karma, and God. Karma wanted to bitch-slap him, but God decided to show him a little respect and simply curbstomped him. Still, he's gone 4-0 this past month, plus is the highest Zerg by ELO. This deserves some recognition. 2-3. Baby Baby's gone 2-0 this month so far, beating Leta and Lomo. He also made it out of the OSL prelims scramble, which puts him ahead over other players like the perenially cursed Bisu. Leta's actually pretty good at TvT, too. If things continue he could get a top three spot. More than that, though, is that he's cemented his place as the ace of WeMade Terran. TLers have wondered whether outside observers can really judge the performance of a player--this placement definitely means that at least to insiders, Baby is a force to reckon with. More than that, though, Baby has potential, youth, and a powerful Terran legacy behind him--see his games against Flash, for example. Will this be his season to shine? Perhaps. 4-8. Hiya Hiya has gone 4-0 in June and is in the OSL. He's beaten Stats, FBH, Mind, and Movie--a mixed bag of opposition, but no group of pushovers either (especially Stats, whose PvT is nothing to be laughed at). Of course, his TvT and TvZ have yet to be substantially tested. Still a good month, and if he keeps winning he could easily get to a 4-6 spot. 4-8. Bisu Bisu is out of the OSL. Nihil novi sub sole. What is depressing though is that he does this while playing extremely well in PL. I wonder if this is due to a lack of coaching support he gets for individual leagues, which, coupled with his well-known weaknesses in coming up with new builds on his own (compared to say, Best, which Kingdom commented on) is leading him into a situation where he can't dominate without Oov teaching him new builds. This would be very, very bad, as it is essentially going to cap his development as a player. 4-8. Jaedong Jaedong has had a rough June--easily the worst month of his career. Still, he beat Flash at ZvT, so that has to count for something. But where has he gone otherwise? His nigh unshakeable ZvZ is in a terrific losing streak, and his ZvP looks mortal, being challenged by Grape of all players. 4-8. Zero Zero simply got outclassed by Flash. Still, losing to the Last Bonjwa doesn't mean very much, so his ranking here is mostly a result of getting knocked out of the OSL. Put frankly, Zero needs to quit the cuteness and pick up consistency if he wants to vault into the top tier of players. 6-10. Jangbi Jangbi went 3-0 this past month and made it out of the OSL prelims. That's more than can be said of any other tosses still in the OSL. Given his past performance, it's safe to say that he has potential, and his recent record seems to show that he might be getting close to attaining it. Can he and/or Stork bring back the legend by the time Fall rolls around? 8-10. Horang2 Horang2, like Best, is a one matchup wonder, but at least he has some meat to back him up. 8-10. Best Best beat Flash (in a macro game, nonetheless) and took some tough losses to exit the OSL. Still, if you watch his games vs. Major, it's pretty apparant that he has some of the best tactical PvT game sense around (something Bisu would do well to learn from--just look at how Best managed to de-position Major's tank line over and over again on even bases vs. how Bisu lost 40 supply chasing a floating command center vs Flash.) Having said that, what's holding Best back isn't the OSL placement, but big question marks floating over his PvZ and PvP. His PvZ, especially, is a major question mark, as he has never, ever demonstrated strength in the matchup, and in a season where Zergs are pretty thick, this places him at the mercy of the opposing team's sniping strategy. 8-10. Roro Roro, likewise has gone 2-0 this month and made it into the OSL. But his opponents are not considered big names so he's still an unknown quantity. There was a time when he was a solid Zerg auxiliary to the WemadeTerran team, but his days of making people curse their FPL anti-teams are pretty distant. Still, kid's got potential. | ||
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On June 18 2011 01:43 Holgerius wrote: This should definitely have some effect on Bisu's rank. There's no ''He would've gone all the way if he hadn't been forced to play Flash twice'' excuse here, is there? His strongest match-up, relatively bad player, Bo3. On the other hand, which players are showing consistency enough to be placed above him? While its true that Bisu did not play as good as he normally does PvZ (losing sairs to often for instance, but this should also be credited to hyvvas superb scourge usage), this result was more decided by the fact that Hyvva played absolutely awesome these games. His troop movements, positioning and battle micro where all at a jaedong level and not the normal level we are used to seeing him. On a more general note for all the players who dropped, it should be mentioned that this is the prelims, and that is a total different breed of games than your regular broadcasted matches. We constantly hear people talk in interviews about how their teammates are doing so well in practice but are not able to show it in broadcasted games, in the prelims however a lot of these people seem to be playing just way better (not the same pressure, lots of people around you and a more "familiar" environment). So while it might seem to people that the prelims should be a cake walk for the good players, the truth is actually that the prelims are a hard road as shown by both this prelims result and those of the past. Look for instance how Savior was the absolutely best player in the world, going back to back 5 MSL finals in a row, but was never able to get through the hell that is prelims in OSL. I mean you have to go trough several BO3s against unknown competition on a different rotation of maps against people who have nothing to lose and no pressure. That said, dropping in the prelims should obviously have an impact on peoples PR ranks. However as I said, I think people are underestimating the prelims a lot, as history has shown us that its actually not an easy path. | ||
hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
On June 18 2011 09:15 VGhost wrote: I see that you can argue that, on the month, BeSt's faced better players, because he has. Flash is a huge win, Bogus has been hot, and Grape and Really are okay. Wooki and Lazy are rookies and Much is older: Killer's Horang2's best win. I don't buy the 9-1 being worse than the 8-1 though, for a few reasons. One is Bisu. Another is Jaedong. Another is Shuttle. Every one a win for Horang2 last month when the best BeSt beat was Really's 47% winrate. And for losses, Stork is better than TurN. Also, it's not "9-1 worse than 8-1", it's 12-4 vs 8-1, or if we stick to Proleague, 11-3 vs 8-1. Horang2 has more losses, but also more wins - and I have no doubt that Horang2 would beat BeSt hollow, certainly in a BoX series. Finally, Horang2 has been playing well for months now, which ordinarily means a player is cut more slack. BeSt showed up out of nowhere at the end of April. Horang2 is the best Protoss on his team, while BeSt plays a clear 2nd place. History doesn't just apply to TLBS, even though they're the most obvious beneficiaries: you play well for a long period, you get extra consideration. In short, while there may be an argument to be made for BeSt, it's hardly the obvious ordering you consider it. It's also true that I'm probably a bigger fan of Horang2 than BeSt, so I'm going to look at things a little differently than you. The Bisu win was very good. The jaedong win I put a step below that because there are a lot of people getting wins off of JD recently, but I'm almost ok if you say it's equal to beating flash. But After both peoples higlight wins, Best played A teamers, and Horang played B teamers (the only other consistent A teamer is killer, who is certainly not one of the premiere A teamers). I was giving him a break, but if you want to include that extra 3-2, then we can add action to the a teamer as well, but the losses are more significant than the wins. Horang has looked better for a loner period of time, but that's because best didn't play a game for over a month. How long do we hold something that he can't control over his head? We can fault him in the may rank because despite doing the most impressive thing he could possibly do in one game, it was still one game. We can even fault him in the june rank, because the sample size wasn't THAT large, and we still had doubts. But now it's getting silly, and we can focus on what he is doing now: beating the best player in the world. And in responce to the post above yours: Horang lost 0-2 also in the prelims also to a b teamer also in his premiere MU. | ||
TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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VGhost
United States3602 Posts
I am saying, based on history, that Horang2 as of right now still holds the edge. It's very close, and on only the month BeSt has an edge, but he doesn't have great momentum, because his last month, while good, proves little. On June 18 2011 10:50 hacklebeast wrote: The Bisu win was very good. The jaedong win I put a step below that because there are a lot of people getting wins off of JD recently, but I'm almost ok if you say it's equal to beating flash. But After both peoples higlight wins, Best played A teamers, and Horang played B teamers (the only other consistent A teamer is killer, who is certainly not one of the premiere A teamers). I was giving him a break, but if you want to include that extra 3-2, then we can add action to the a teamer as well, but the losses are more significant than the wins. In the last month (May), Horang2 played Action, Iris, Shine, Pure, Jaedong, Bisu, and Shuttle and beat them all. Every single one of them is a Proleague regular, and Iris is the worst player on that list. Shuttle is Horang2's closest rival for top PvP. Bisu is Bisu. Pure's an A-teamer and his best MU is PvP. Shine we know about. Horang2 lost one game, to Stork - who admittedly is not doing very well but is still good. In contrast, BeSt beat Saint, Really, and Mind in May. Saint is awful. Really is not that good. Mind is a good win, but that's it. Throwing in the loss to TurN, BeSt's May record simply doesn't compare to Horang2's. On June 18 2011 10:50 hacklebeast wrote: Horang has looked better for a loner period of time, but that's because best didn't play a game for over a month. How long do we hold something that he can't control over his head? We can fault him in the may rank because despite doing the most impressive thing he could possibly do in one game, it was still one game. How did he not control it? Sure, PL appearances aren't entirely up to him. Here's something that is: not losing in the MST. In addition to his PL games, Horang2 was in the MSL. Yes, in May, he lost to Grape in a 2-1 series. But BeSt got knocked out back in March by Classic (ridiculous!) and HoeJJa (excusable). On June 18 2011 10:50 hacklebeast wrote: But now it's getting silly, and we can focus on what he is doing now: beating the best player in the world. This is your case for BeSt. This is all you have to go on: he beat Flash (and yes, beat Flash twice in two months). Other than that, the recent history just doesn't stack up. You think beating Flash puts him ahead of Horang2. I think it doesn't, because Horang2's got similar marquee wins recently, he's been playing better longer, we haven't seen Horang2 play Flash – and maybe most importantly, I like Horang2 better than BeSt. | ||
jjhchsc2
Korea (South)2393 Posts
On June 18 2011 10:16 Yongtaek wrote: Potential rankings for June: 1. Flash The next couple are a little less clear cut. 2-3. Hydra Hydra made it to the semis of the MSL, where he met Karma, and God. Karma wanted to bitch-slap him, but God decided to show him a little respect and simply curbstomped him. Still, he's gone 4-0 this past month, plus is the highest Zerg by ELO. This deserves some recognition. 2-3. Baby Baby's gone 2-0 this month so far, beating Leta and Lomo. He also made it out of the OSL prelims scramble, which puts him ahead over other players like the perenially cursed Bisu. Leta's actually pretty good at TvT, too. If things continue he could get a top three spot. More than that, though, is that he's cemented his place as the ace of WeMade Terran. TLers have wondered whether outside observers can really judge the performance of a player--this placement definitely means that at least to insiders, Baby is a force to reckon with. More than that, though, Baby has potential, youth, and a powerful Terran legacy behind him--see his games against Flash, for example. Will this be his season to shine? Perhaps. 4-8. Hiya Hiya has gone 4-0 in June and is in the OSL. He's beaten Stats, FBH, Mind, and Movie--a mixed bag of opposition, but no group of pushovers either (especially Stats, whose PvT is nothing to be laughed at). Of course, his TvT and TvZ have yet to be substantially tested. Still a good month, and if he keeps winning he could easily get to a 4-6 spot. 4-8. Bisu Bisu is out of the OSL. Nihil novi sub sole. What is depressing though is that he does this while playing extremely well in PL. I wonder if this is due to a lack of coaching support he gets for individual leagues, which, coupled with his well-known weaknesses in coming up with new builds on his own (compared to say, Best, which Kingdom commented on) is leading him into a situation where he can't dominate without Oov teaching him new builds. This would be very, very bad, as it is essentially going to cap his development as a player. 4-8. Jaedong Jaedong has had a rough June--easily the worst month of his career. Still, he beat Flash at ZvT, so that has to count for something. But where has he gone otherwise? His nigh unshakeable ZvZ is in a terrific losing streak, and his ZvP looks mortal, being challenged by Grape of all players. 4-8. Zero Zero simply got outclassed by Flash. Still, losing to the Last Bonjwa doesn't mean very much, so his ranking here is mostly a result of getting knocked out of the OSL. Put frankly, Zero needs to quit the cuteness and pick up consistency if he wants to vault into the top tier of players. 6-10. Jangbi Jangbi went 3-0 this past month and made it out of the OSL prelims. That's more than can be said of any other tosses still in the OSL. Given his past performance, it's safe to say that he has potential, and his recent record seems to show that he might be getting close to attaining it. Can he and/or Stork bring back the legend by the time Fall rolls around? 8-10. Horang2 Horang2, like Best, is a one matchup wonder, but at least he has some meat to back him up. 8-10. Best Best beat Flash (in a macro game, nonetheless) and took some tough losses to exit the OSL. Still, if you watch his games vs. Major, it's pretty apparant that he has some of the best tactical PvT game sense around (something Bisu would do well to learn from--just look at how Best managed to de-position Major's tank line over and over again on even bases vs. how Bisu lost 40 supply chasing a floating command center vs Flash.) Having said that, what's holding Best back isn't the OSL placement, but big question marks floating over his PvZ and PvP. His PvZ, especially, is a major question mark, as he has never, ever demonstrated strength in the matchup, and in a season where Zergs are pretty thick, this places him at the mercy of the opposing team's sniping strategy. 8-10. Roro Roro, likewise has gone 2-0 this month and made it into the OSL. But his opponents are not considered big names so he's still an unknown quantity. There was a time when he was a solid Zerg auxiliary to the WemadeTerran team, but his days of making people curse their FPL anti-teams are pretty distant. Still, kid's got potential. Nice joke... To put zero 8th????? he should be like 2nd or 3rd. and JD's Zvp looks mortal challenged by grape?? LOL Baby is way too high. | ||
jpak
United States5045 Posts
On June 18 2011 10:16 Yongtaek wrote: Potential rankings for June: 1. Flash The next couple are a little less clear cut. 2-3. Hydra Hydra made it to the semis of the MSL, where he met Karma, and God. Karma wanted to bitch-slap him, but God decided to show him a little respect and simply curbstomped him. Still, he's gone 4-0 this past month, plus is the highest Zerg by ELO. This deserves some recognition. 2-3. Baby Baby's gone 2-0 this month so far, beating Leta and Lomo. He also made it out of the OSL prelims scramble, which puts him ahead over other players like the perenially cursed Bisu. Leta's actually pretty good at TvT, too. If things continue he could get a top three spot. More than that, though, is that he's cemented his place as the ace of WeMade Terran. TLers have wondered whether outside observers can really judge the performance of a player--this placement definitely means that at least to insiders, Baby is a force to reckon with. More than that, though, Baby has potential, youth, and a powerful Terran legacy behind him--see his games against Flash, for example. Will this be his season to shine? Perhaps. 4-8. Hiya Hiya has gone 4-0 in June and is in the OSL. He's beaten Stats, FBH, Mind, and Movie--a mixed bag of opposition, but no group of pushovers either (especially Stats, whose PvT is nothing to be laughed at). Of course, his TvT and TvZ have yet to be substantially tested. Still a good month, and if he keeps winning he could easily get to a 4-6 spot. 4-8. Bisu Bisu is out of the OSL. Nihil novi sub sole. What is depressing though is that he does this while playing extremely well in PL. I wonder if this is due to a lack of coaching support he gets for individual leagues, which, coupled with his well-known weaknesses in coming up with new builds on his own (compared to say, Best, which Kingdom commented on) is leading him into a situation where he can't dominate without Oov teaching him new builds. This would be very, very bad, as it is essentially going to cap his development as a player. 4-8. Jaedong Jaedong has had a rough June--easily the worst month of his career. Still, he beat Flash at ZvT, so that has to count for something. But where has he gone otherwise? His nigh unshakeable ZvZ is in a terrific losing streak, and his ZvP looks mortal, being challenged by Grape of all players. 4-8. Zero Zero simply got outclassed by Flash. Still, losing to the Last Bonjwa doesn't mean very much, so his ranking here is mostly a result of getting knocked out of the OSL. Put frankly, Zero needs to quit the cuteness and pick up consistency if he wants to vault into the top tier of players. 6-10. Jangbi Jangbi went 3-0 this past month and made it out of the OSL prelims. That's more than can be said of any other tosses still in the OSL. Given his past performance, it's safe to say that he has potential, and his recent record seems to show that he might be getting close to attaining it. Can he and/or Stork bring back the legend by the time Fall rolls around? 8-10. Horang2 Horang2, like Best, is a one matchup wonder, but at least he has some meat to back him up. 8-10. Best Best beat Flash (in a macro game, nonetheless) and took some tough losses to exit the OSL. Still, if you watch his games vs. Major, it's pretty apparant that he has some of the best tactical PvT game sense around (something Bisu would do well to learn from--just look at how Best managed to de-position Major's tank line over and over again on even bases vs. how Bisu lost 40 supply chasing a floating command center vs Flash.) Having said that, what's holding Best back isn't the OSL placement, but big question marks floating over his PvZ and PvP. His PvZ, especially, is a major question mark, as he has never, ever demonstrated strength in the matchup, and in a season where Zergs are pretty thick, this places him at the mercy of the opposing team's sniping strategy. 8-10. Roro Roro, likewise has gone 2-0 this month and made it into the OSL. But his opponents are not considered big names so he's still an unknown quantity. There was a time when he was a solid Zerg auxiliary to the WemadeTerran team, but his days of making people curse their FPL anti-teams are pretty distant. Still, kid's got potential. I like your name. It rings true in my heart. | ||
GolemMadness
Canada11044 Posts
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Fishmalk
74 Posts
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
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Tenhou
1052 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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agarangu
Chile274 Posts
On June 18 2011 14:04 Tenhou wrote: Starleague winners curse and the flamewheel #1 rank curse is too much for Flash to handle lol You are too fast! I admit my defeat | ||
agarangu
Chile274 Posts
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