[D] TLO's tvz hellion opening/ "metal" strat - Page 5
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PimpMobeel
120 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
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PimpMobeel
120 Posts
On September 12 2010 05:07 iEchoic wrote: Anyone have a replay/working link? I'm not sure if I have to register but I'm not registering just to watch a vod. u have to register if u wanna watch it on that site, doesnt take long. | ||
Iron_
United States389 Posts
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
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Senorcuidado
United States700 Posts
On September 12 2010 04:59 PimpMobeel wrote: qxc used to do this all the time? also yeah mutas shud be very strong against this but those sensor towers wud make things a tad harder. If we're thinking of the same build (I use it in most of my tvz games) it's the reactor swap hellions, and I believe the expo would have been slower. It does follow up with thors quite often, though I don't remember him rushing +2. Personally, I feel like you should get preigniter anyway but that +2 is sick for thors and for hellions shooting roaches, and once you're two shotting lings I guess it's redundant. I tried this build with mixed results last night. Roach openers are hard, kiting them isn't that easy and they take forever to die. I like how fast the expo is though, and you can still transition into bio with hellion support. I also hate how 5 rax reaper forces you into bio all game, and this build gives you more options. All in all, I'm probably butchering the build since I can only go off what I saw in the video, but it's pretty micro intensive and I'm not sure I'll use it a lot since I'm not as good as TLO. | ||
XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
Mech is still very viable you just have to get upgrades and put emphasis on your composition. If he goes heavy roach you go heavy tank If he goes heavy muta you go heavy thor If he goes Ultra you go heavy thor w rauder If he goes muta/bling/sling you go heavy hellion thor. Im so happy this has restored mech because I love factory units and slowly pushing is so much fun. | ||
Moja
United States313 Posts
My problem with the build is how vulnerable you are to early pressure. A baneling bust or 5RR is basically an autowin against this. TLO only has 1 marine and 2 hellions to defend against either one. | ||
PimpMobeel
120 Posts
On September 12 2010 05:37 Senorcuidado wrote: If we're thinking of the same build (I use it in most of my tvz games) it's the reactor swap hellions, and I believe the expo would have been slower. It does follow up with thors quite often, though I don't remember him rushing +2. Personally, I feel like you should get preigniter anyway but that +2 is sick for thors and for hellions shooting roaches, and once you're two shotting lings I guess it's redundant. I tried this build with mixed results last night. Roach openers are hard, kiting them isn't that easy and they take forever to die. I like how fast the expo is though, and you can still transition into bio with hellion support. I also hate how 5 rax reaper forces you into bio all game, and this build gives you more options. All in all, I'm probably butchering the build since I can only go off what I saw in the video, but it's pretty micro intensive and I'm not sure I'll use it a lot since I'm not as good as TLO. yeah i was thinking of the reactor hellion expand; this build is just a much more refined version really. i agree with roaches being ridiculously micro intensive to deal with. have u come across a 5 roach rush or something similar using it and if so what were the results? | ||
Tomken
Norway1144 Posts
On September 11 2010 06:42 Edso wrote: hmm it seemed like TLO would have got stomped if the zerg got mutas out, i dunno pure mech is sketchy with magic box mutas. On the other hand I can also see the hellions forcing the roaches out so Zerg won't have enough gas to be able to tech to mutas. Many Marine + Thor > muta magic box anyway... | ||
Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On September 11 2010 06:53 avilo wrote: newsflash: just because TLO did it does not mean it's new. Sounds like a solid/common strat though. Yah I'm not going to lie... seen people do this a lot even in beta. I just wish people would stop attributing everything TLO does to him when it's clearly not his idea. Not to take away anything from the guy, but he's not some super genius innovator. He's not the next Flash. He's just a solid player who has a lot of variance in his playstyle. | ||
Quotidian
Norway1937 Posts
On September 12 2010 07:36 Floophead_III wrote: Yah I'm not going to lie... seen people do this a lot even in beta. I just wish people would stop attributing everything TLO does to him when it's clearly not his idea. Not to take away anything from the guy, but he's not some super genius innovator. He's not the next Flash. He's just a solid player who has a lot of variance in his playstyle. Really? You've seen a lot of people use such a specifically articulated build like this one in the beta? Even though I haven't gotten all the details of the build, I tend to agree with what Artosis said, about how fully structured the build seems to be. But anyway, who cares? The point isn't to attribute any general idea to anyone in particular. The point is to discuss the actual build(s) TLO used in his matches the past friday. People just get hung up on the mass hellion opening. | ||
fadestep
United States605 Posts
On September 11 2010 06:47 Pufftrees wrote: This was definitely a very well thought out build. I'd say this opening is refined to at least a tier ahead of most builds out there. This really feels like a pro sc1 build from a distance. So you listened to the GomTV cast? Lol. This isn't some uber pro strat. It's a decent opening in a match up that is full of ez mode openings. | ||
P00RKID
United States424 Posts
On September 11 2010 12:41 Darthturtle wrote: Considering how fast hellions are, you'd pretty much have to stare at the minimap the entire time, macroing very little, doing very little else, just to have a chance at potentially maybe getting your money's worth on those unnecessary banelings. Maybe you should just play better. It's not like people without detection won't learn to split their hellions into smaller packs of few hellions each. Detonating and killing mass hellions becomes more or less a pipe dream when he's running one or two over your banelings at a time. Don't even need detection, just a little common sense. Maybe banelings possibly arn't the answer entirely, but using some early burrow roaches could be explored more. Players that have the apm can keep up with burrow and macro, so I don't know why you say "Maybe you should just play better" as this is nothing to do with me. Losira has the capability to burrow 5 or so roaches, let hellions pass over into his base, chase them out with 7 roaches into the burrowed ones, unburrow, and pick off a few hellions. So it doesn't have to be banelings, but just abusing the fact that they have to scan you more. Plus earlyer burrow, although you might be losing out on earlyer 4 roaches, will end up being able to heal your hurt roaches and put up a trap, as well as getting burrow movement later too. Burrow can be used for map control if done right but it is hard to do/ dont see it used much. Losira was playing it right by mass roach and attacking and flanking often and you could tell by the look on TLO after the game that he was thrown off. Before the game he was all smiles and confident, then got all serious after the game. | ||
XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
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Beren
United States514 Posts
Its the small things in the build that make it VERY different. I believe the zerg responded to it extremely well. If he cuts roaches to get Muta's thats 4 roaches for every muta (plus the 8 roaches for the spire). He (TLO) cut gas early to get a fast expand. This is different and also extremely important about the build. The fast upgrades of course don't just affect the helions and yes lvl 2 was delayed due to constant pressure from zerg with his roaches, which is a credit to zerg player. If the zerg did not keep the pressure on, TLO would have been able to put that pressure on the zerg instead. I can't remember 4 but i wanna say the zerg never got his "natural 3rd (not the gold) because he probably couldnt defend it. I really don't think the zerg had the econ to do this muta switch or any other different tech path everyone seems to think would have stop'd this. Lings over roaches for the extra gas would have been GG for the zerg. | ||
ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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charlie420247
United States692 Posts
fighting there extremely immobile army with your most immobile unit. hahahah | ||
metaldragon
United States251 Posts
On September 12 2010 14:57 ReachTheSky wrote: I feel like the way TLO executed this build was good. I think that if the zerg just goes mass speedling the harass will get shutdown ezpz since i can't see any room for blue flame in this build without setting yourself back vs the zerg. I think it could be good for a bo3/bo5 series but probably won't be good enough for standard play. TLO's build Gets A LOT of hellion early on. Not the normal 4-5 you usually see. Even Without blue flame 6-8 hellion rapes speedling with any decent micro early on. Later on the +2 just makes muta and lings almost useless since hellion 2 shot lings without flame and thors 2 shot muta instead of 3 shotting them. | ||
ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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