I'm guessing almost everyone has seen it by now. I'm curious if people have figured out the specifics of it beyond what was described in the match commentary. Has anyone tried it? I gave something kind of like it a shot, and although I couldn't pull it off, I just loved the "attitude" of it and how it felt. It's both extremely mobile and in your opponents face, and also quite defensive.
1) Gas before rax for fast factory. 2) Hellion to contain zerg, constant reinforcing 3) Pull SCVS off gas after factory in order to get a fast CC down(safe due to hellion aggression) 4) Fast +2 upgrade so hellions 2 shot zlings, and strengthen tank/thor vs roach
You need quite a bit of APM to constantly kite roaches while macroing.
On September 11 2010 06:42 Edso wrote: hmm it seemed like TLO would have got stomped if the zerg got mutas out, i dunno pure mech is sketchy with magic box mutas.
On the other hand I can also see the hellions forcing the roaches out so Zerg won't have enough gas to be able to tech to mutas.
Going muta and getting out a significant number is pretty much impossible with constant hellion pressure. Zerg HAS to go roaches which do eat up a good amount of gas, and having thors out in time is pretty easy since he does delay his port quite a bit.
This was definitely a very well thought out build. I'd say this opening is refined to at least a tier ahead of most builds out there. This really feels like a pro sc1 build from a distance.
It looks like TLO went for Thor before tank in the VOD, and also in my experience - where the zerg eventually got mutas - they aren't really a problem. I kept losing due to failures in both micro and macro.
Vontz, just go to gomtv.net. I guess you have to register there though...
On September 11 2010 06:42 Edso wrote: hmm it seemed like TLO would have got stomped if the zerg got mutas out, i dunno pure mech is sketchy with magic box mutas.
On the other hand I can also see the hellions forcing the roaches out so Zerg won't have enough gas to be able to tech to mutas.
Going muta and getting out a significant number is pretty much impossible with constant hellion pressure. Zerg HAS to go roaches which do eat up a good amount of gas, and having thors out in time is pretty easy since he does delay his port quite a bit.
i understand what you're trying to get at but I feel the same way as Edso, if zerg sets up some key spinecrawlers and manage with minimum amount of roaches, in order to save up to get mutas, that build would have been harassed so badly by mutas. Note that his Thors came out Pretty god damn late. In TLO'S match I was on my seat the whole time because if zerg used his mobility/drops to his advantaged and didnt suicide his units the match would have been much closer. And if Terran turtles...Zerg can just expand.
Avilo, it's the specifics of this build that makes it..eh.. specific. I've seen plenty of terrans do early/mass hellions against zerg, but there are some things about this build, like the double armories instead of blue flame, that kind of makes it feel - again - specific to TLO.
And why get into the whole "there is nothing new under the sun"-thing? That's not productive.
On September 11 2010 06:48 Cuh wrote: I tried it right after the match, and it didnt work for me. Way to micro intensive for me to do. But im a better zerg after copying that roach play
this exactly. I'm only plat level zerg but i honestly believe TLO was just too good for this guy. Artosis was right about TLO's opponent he would have easily advanced against 70% of the field. The guy really played perfectly to counter TLO strategy but TLO was just way to micro intensive.
Either way i've already won several tough match-ups with this mass roach play. If opponent goes air its so easy to transition to hydra.
either way this was by far the best match so far in gsl and TLO really impressed me alot with A) the sophistication of the build B) the intuition to continue the strategy and win with pure micro/macro even after he faced several close situations. C) the 2nd game i loved TLO's decision to switch up and harass with drops. Even after he showed an identical opening. Seemed a very natural transition and it seems like the opening may be very viable in several builds and strategies.
I know this is off topic but how sick was TLO's maur drops into the baneling ball. i was freaking out.
Great play by TLO indeed but the strategy isn't really new, just modified. I would rather focus on his choice of strategy on that specific map (xel'naga cav) and how you can use your pressure early on to transfer into several follow-up's... mostly bio or mech.
edit: to elaborate the follow-up-thinking-pattern and clarify -> with the right harass and early pressure the zerg wont have much knowledge of whats going on and what to do next.
In the commentary, tastetosis mentioned that he trained for this match with Idra, and idra said "his best chances for beating this seems to be roaches."
Well he went roaches, and did an amazing job at staying aggressive, but it just wasn't enough to counter mass tank + thor. The hellions weren't even that effective early game. He basically used this strat against an opener that would preform the best against it, and still managed to lose in both economy and army.
Surprisingly, game 1 shows how the build has the same advantages, counters, and feel of 5rax reaper, when up against roach defense. I really like the ability to go for mech off an early expo/harass. I hated the fact that 5 rax reaper pretty much forced your infrastructure for the next 5-10 minutes of the game.
I feel that a heavy mineral hungry hatch first build maybe a good counter with well positioned spine and an extra queen at your natural with using your roach warren at your natural to help block hellion harass. The extra queen will allow for faster creep spread and way to block your ramp. This is all speculation since I havn't been up against this build. I feel if there is a way zerg can shut down the hellion harass with out the need of too many roaches they can most likely tech to mutas before for the first serious push. If terran does come out with a push before your mutas arrive you can spawn roaches while his army comes towards your base. I'm guessing that should be sufficient for stopping it.
I am a newb zerg (~1100 diamond) so I maybe out of line here.
On September 11 2010 08:23 houseurmusic wrote: I feel that a heavy mineral hungry hatch first build maybe a good counter with well positioned spine and an extra queen at your natural with using your roach warren at your natural to help block hellion harass. The extra queen will allow for faster creep spread and way to block your ramp. This is all speculation since I havn't been up against this build. I feel if there is a way zerg can shut down the hellion harass with out the need of too many roaches they can most likely tech to mutas before for the first serious push. If terran does come out with a push before your mutas arrive you can spawn roaches while his army comes towards your base. I'm guessing that should be sufficient for stopping it.
I am a newb zerg (~1100 diamond) so I maybe out of line here.
did you watch the game? TLO would have blown his econ away and had thor's in time.
EDIT: SORRY! Hatch first... thinking u meant 1 hatch. same issue, drones would have died at natural.
it sounds good if somehow you know exactly what he was doing, i have a feeling the zerg didn't know to what extent he was going to use hellions.
On September 11 2010 08:23 houseurmusic wrote: I feel that a heavy mineral hungry hatch first build maybe a good counter with well positioned spine and an extra queen at your natural with using your roach warren at your natural to help block hellion harass. The extra queen will allow for faster creep spread and way to block your ramp. This is all speculation since I havn't been up against this build. I feel if there is a way zerg can shut down the hellion harass with out the need of too many roaches they can most likely tech to mutas before for the first serious push. If terran does come out with a push before your mutas arrive you can spawn roaches while his army comes towards your base. I'm guessing that should be sufficient for stopping it.
I am a newb zerg (~1100 diamond) so I maybe out of line here.
did you watch the game? TLO would have blown his econ away and had thor's in time.
EDIT: SORRY! Hatch first... thinking u meant 1 hatch. same issue, drones would have died at natural.
Well I guess don't have to put drones at your natural until you have the defense for it. 2 queens, a few well positioned roaches, and a well placed roach warren and spine may in fact (depending on the map) allow you to make a wall or set a trap for the hellions when they come in for the harass. Also remember that we are delaying gas allowing for more minerals to support these early structures and units.
On September 11 2010 08:23 houseurmusic wrote: I feel that a heavy mineral hungry hatch first build maybe a good counter with well positioned spine and an extra queen at your natural with using your roach warren at your natural to help block hellion harass. The extra queen will allow for faster creep spread and way to block your ramp. This is all speculation since I havn't been up against this build. I feel if there is a way zerg can shut down the hellion harass with out the need of too many roaches they can most likely tech to mutas before for the first serious push. If terran does come out with a push before your mutas arrive you can spawn roaches while his army comes towards your base. I'm guessing that should be sufficient for stopping it.
I am a newb zerg (~1100 diamond) so I maybe out of line here.
did you watch the game? TLO would have blown his econ away and had thor's in time.
EDIT: SORRY! Hatch first... thinking u meant 1 hatch. same issue, drones would have died at natural.
Well I guess don't have to put drones at your natural until you have the defense for it. 2 queens, a few well positioned roaches, and a well placed roach warren and spine may in fact (depending on the map) allow you to make a wall or set a trap for the hellions when they come in for the harass. Also remember that we are delaying gas allowing for more minerals to support these early structures and units.
He did defend his base. The hellions didn't do anything against his econ at all, and this was with a FE.
The real problem is stopping the terran economy. TLO had a FE up as well, except he also had map control with a mobile army of hellions, which pretty much forces a roach response -- but how could zerg have been any more proactive about harassing TLO, and stopping his army? The roach play was very good, and he even took out a thor early game.
There's just not much else he could have done, except MAYBE go a little lighter on roach and somehow magically rush out 8 broodlords, even though terrans econ was better the entire game.
On September 11 2010 08:01 Zips wrote: So how do you counter this build, anyways?
In the commentary, tastetosis mentioned that he trained for this match with Idra, and idra said "his best chances for beating this seems to be roaches."
But as Idra has also said "there is no safe build against terran" even if you've got a chance of winning with that, it's just a chance. I think to lose with that build you'd have be severely out played by your opponant, but when that guy is TLO that's really living on a prayer.
Is roach probably the best solution? yeah, but you're still going to lose most of the time anyways due to this builds awesomeness, and the total lack of diverse reponses zerg can provide, allows other races to tailor their builds perfectly to these limited options. Something which is going to sting alot more as time progresses.
I don't know seemed like a very strong build. I thought the zerg TLO played was AMAZING and would have loved to see him go on to ro32 if he faced someone else. I don't really know what he could have changed, I think if he don't attack so much with the roaches (throwing them away) he could of got his 3rd sooner and got critical mass roach earlier. I don't know, I'm a noob compared to them though.
Also I think if he would have rushed to mutas while defending the hellions, even getting 6 or 7 out would have done a TON of damage to TLO.
On September 11 2010 06:42 Edso wrote: hmm it seemed like TLO would have got stomped if the zerg got mutas out, i dunno pure mech is sketchy with magic box mutas.
On the other hand I can also see the hellions forcing the roaches out so Zerg won't have enough gas to be able to tech to mutas.
Going muta and getting out a significant number is pretty much impossible with constant hellion pressure. Zerg HAS to go roaches which do eat up a good amount of gas, and having thors out in time is pretty easy since he does delay his port quite a bit.
i understand what you're trying to get at but I feel the same way as Edso, if zerg sets up some key spinecrawlers and manage with minimum amount of roaches, in order to save up to get mutas, that build would have been harassed so badly by mutas. Note that his Thors came out Pretty god damn late. In TLO'S match I was on my seat the whole time because if zerg used his mobility/drops to his advantaged and didnt suicide his units the match would have been much closer. And if Terran turtles...Zerg can just expand.
Thing is, TLO got his thors so late as he saw THAT many roaches, if he had seen fewer, he would have gotten thors out faster... and still be safe...
Yeah, you can't say thors are what keeps mutas from fixing that situation, magic box it up and those late thors could have been dealt with, with a small amount of mutas. That's what makes TLO's build very hard for most of us.
Now what if he kept his roach production on a similar upgrade level as the terran mech?
Because if he is allowed to 2 base gas, he can easily save enough. However with the constant harassment, it'd be extremely difficult. So good job TLO.
Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway.
On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway.
You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9.
I feel like the only way to counter this strat is to outexpand the Terran and be aggressive like the Zerg was, while also making crawlers (or having roaches) at home to defend against hellion harass and rush for ultras/broods. And while rushing for Tier 3, make sure not to saturate the new expos in favor of massing out enough roaches to hold off the attack first (since any good Terran will timing attack right before hive finishes or shortly after). Once the Terran push is held off, start droning back up and pushing back w/tier 3 tech. So basically what the Z did vs TLO, except a bit faster tier 3. Either way, seems like a very hard strategy to beat.
On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway.
You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9.
Sure, but there were quite a few Roach on Hellion fights early on without any tanks in the vicinity where the number of Roaches would've been more than enough to kill the Hellions - If they just stood still.
Also, Tanks have higher range than every other unit, so I don't necessarily get your point. Even if they get picked out by tanks reasonably fast, a couple of seconds of MC might be all that's needed given that large battles are usually over in a couple of seconds anyway.
I'm probably missing something, if so please point out and make me a better Terran
On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway.
You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9.
Roaches would've been more than enough to kill the Hellions - If they just stood still.
Hellion range: 5 Roach range: 3
Did you mean if the HELLIONS stood still, the roaches could have owned the hellions?
On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway.
You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9.
Roaches would've been more than enough to kill the Hellions - If they just stood still.
Hellion range: 5 Roach range: 3
Did you mean if the HELLIONS stood still, the roaches could have owned the hellions?
I was suggesting Fungal Growth to shut down the Hellions kiting the Roaches
On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway.
You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9.
Roaches would've been more than enough to kill the Hellions - If they just stood still.
Hellion range: 5 Roach range: 3
Did you mean if the HELLIONS stood still, the roaches could have owned the hellions?
I was suggesting Fungal Growth to shut down the Hellions kiting the Roaches
I just don't think thats economically viable, as you're spending 100 gas on the pit, then 150 gas per infestor, assuming you get 2 infestors, thats 400 gas, or 16 roaches you could be getting. Thats sacrificing a lot of roaches which you definitely need.
On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway.
You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9.
Roaches would've been more than enough to kill the Hellions - If they just stood still.
Hellion range: 5 Roach range: 3
Did you mean if the HELLIONS stood still, the roaches could have owned the hellions?
I was suggesting Fungal Growth to shut down the Hellions kiting the Roaches
I just don't think thats economically viable, as you're spending 100 gas on the pit, then 150 gas per infestor, assuming you get 2 infestors, thats 400 gas, or 16 roaches you could be getting. Thats sacrificing a lot of roaches which you definitely need.
I assumed that Z would want the pit anyway in order to tech to Hive sooner or later. With the surplus minerals from not getting the roaches Z could make Spines / Lings which might come in handy as well. Anyway, since I'm only theorycrafting, I'll shut up now
On September 11 2010 07:03 Quotidian wrote: Avilo, it's the specifics of this build that makes it..eh.. specific. I've seen plenty of terrans do early/mass hellions against zerg, but there are some things about this build, like the double armories instead of blue flame, that kind of makes it feel - again - specific to TLO.
The fast +2 is exactly what makes this build fresh. That's the entire point of it. I feel like everyone who says "eh, hellion push, seen that before" are missing out on what TLO is doing here.
A wall-off at the outer ramp to the 3rd using evo chambers would have made counter-harass w/ hellions really hard, and given zerg a lot more freedom to run Terran around IMO. Even without mutas, zerg was doing a pretty good job of containing and I don't think that going mutas would have prolonged the contain time any longer...the only benefit I can see would be having the spire earlier so that greater spire can start as soon as hive finishes.
On September 11 2010 06:53 avilo wrote: newsflash: just because TLO did it does not mean it's new. Sounds like a solid/common strat though.
I agree as well. Nice build to open with and can transition in to bio or mech depending on the map. Xel'Naga Caverns is quite decent for mech(though I think TLO should have gotten tanks a tad earlier), but bio was a better followup on BS because you need to mobility to be able to protect your back door as well. Drops also seem harder to defend on BS, so the availability of medivacs is also nice.
Lots of people did this in beta including QXC who I saw do it vs ... i think slush, but i could be wrong on KR. I think the T lost though because of losing too many hellions, plus it's easier to pinch them on KR than the open new map.
On September 11 2010 10:19 lossofmercy wrote: Btw, Losira's micro was really good.
I think you, artosis, and tasteless all give him way too much credit. He dove way too much. The comment about him trading is good, but the rate at which he was trading was poor. He could have saved so many roaches if he chose to burrow at key points. If nothing else he could have forced scans.
A switch to muta coupled with the micro you claim he has would have won. Muta micro > 2 thor plus he didn't make those starports until the greater spire was going up so he had a huge window that could have been seized but he let it slip.
I think thors are overrated vs mutas. As long as they dont get a critical mass of them they are easily taken down by spreading the muta in a circle around them.
On theory, instead of defending with roaches, how will you defend a roach push into your base? Even though hellions can kite roaches it still takes a while to roast one.
On September 11 2010 11:13 starcraft911 wrote: Lots of people did this in beta including QXC who I saw do it vs ... i think slush, but i could be wrong on KR. I think the T lost though because of losing too many hellions, plus it's easier to pinch them on KR than the open new map.
On September 11 2010 10:19 lossofmercy wrote: Btw, Losira's micro was really good.
I think you, artosis, and tasteless all give him way too much credit. He dove way too much. The comment about him trading is good, but the rate at which he was trading was poor. He could have saved so many roaches if he chose to burrow at key points. If nothing else he could have forced scans.
A switch to muta coupled with the micro you claim he has would have won. Muta micro > 2 thor plus he didn't make those starports until the greater spire was going up so he had a huge window that could have been seized but he let it slip.
I think thors are overrated vs mutas. As long as they dont get a critical mass of them they are easily taken down by spreading the muta in a circle around them.
I think TLO just outplayed the Z straight up.
The key with this build is to get armory very fast and start upgrading while you are aggresive with the helions. You can get +2 very fast and then you can magic box as much as you want, but thors 2 shotting muta is just too much.
On September 11 2010 11:13 starcraft911 wrote: Lots of people did this in beta including QXC who I saw do it vs ... i think slush, but i could be wrong on KR. I think the T lost though because of losing too many hellions, plus it's easier to pinch them on KR than the open new map.
I think it's the BO and followthrough that is specific to TLO.. Nobody is thinking "OMG! Hellions! Nobody has EVER opened up with that before!"
I think you, artosis, and tasteless all give him way too much credit. He dove way too much. The comment about him trading is good, but the rate at which he was trading was poor. He could have saved so many roaches if he chose to burrow at key points. If nothing else he could have forced scans.
He had turrets up, btw.. but what "key points" were there that burrow would have somehow saved him?
I think TLO just outplayed the Z straight up.
TLO outplayed the shit out of him. It definitely helped that TLO's strat was solid and refreshingly different from most TvZs. The zerg player was no slouch, though.. You're kidding yourself if you think he played poorly. He did very well for himself.
If Z is going mass roach, they will eventually get burrow. Burrow banelings (in clumps of about 4) out in the field somewhere outside of your base where he most likely won't ever scan pre-emptively. When he micros the hellion ball over them, blast 'em. Banelings do nice damage vs hellions since they are light.
was far behind on detection and had to rely on scans the whole game (only getting starports in time to counter broodlords so he never had raven)
Each scan they use to take out a patch of banelings you have is 2-3 hellions they could have made sooner with a Mule. If they don't scan, you can possible kill 3+ hellions. So burrow can give you some map control if done right (not that I'm good enough to do that, but I will try it against this)
On September 11 2010 12:06 P00RKID wrote: If Z is going mass roach, they will eventually get burrow. Burrow banelings (in clumps of about 4) out in the field somewhere outside of your base where he most likely won't ever scan pre-emptively. When he micros the hellion ball over them, blast 'em. Banelings do nice damage vs hellions since they are light.
was far behind on detection and had to rely on scans the whole game (only getting starports in time to counter broodlords so he never had raven)
Each scan they use to take out a patch of banelings you have is 2-3 hellions they could have made sooner with a Mule. If they don't scan, you can possible kill 3+ hellions. So burrow can give you some map control if done right (not that I'm good enough to do that, but I will try it against this)
Considering how fast hellions are, you'd pretty much have to stare at the minimap the entire time, macroing very little, doing very little else, just to have a chance at potentially maybe getting your money's worth on those unnecessary banelings.
Maybe you should just play better. It's not like people without detection won't learn to split their hellions into smaller packs of few hellions each. Detonating and killing mass hellions becomes more or less a pipe dream when he's running one or two over your banelings at a time. Don't even need detection, just a little common sense.
The Micro intensive play required to keep up the harass on those roaches makes that opening less of an option for lower skill players like my self, however that hellion opening is one of my favorite to do.
TLO is just so amazing in how deals with his opponents mass roach attack, stopping the last push with a wall-In and going in for the kill was so damn exciting to watch.
A lot of you guy's are mentioning the fast +2, but in the actual game TLO wasn't able to get the upgrades as fast as Artosis was talking about. In fact, the zerg had higher upgrades on his roaches. But I'd assume that was due to all the pressure the zerg put out and may have thrown TLO off.
Also, I honestly wouldn't know how to stop this mech build as Z. No one expects such commitment to hellions. You obviously can't go lings and the only unit you can really build for defense is roaches. If you tech to mutas, I guarantee you that the TLO build hellions will make you suffer severely. TLO basically baited the roaches, had a few early thors just in case of mutas and then made siege tanks which just annihilates any zerg ground force.
On September 11 2010 13:00 tackklee wrote: A lot of you guy's are mentioning the fast +2, but in the actual game TLO wasn't able to get the upgrades as fast as Artosis was talking about. In fact, the zerg had higher upgrades on his roaches. But I'd assume that was due to all the pressure the zerg put out and may have thrown TLO off.
Maybe, but it also seems like against the super heavy roach, the +2 attack upgrade has less of a purpose. Why get the +2: to be able to 2 shot lings with far more versatility than by going pre-igniter. But there are no lings and the hellions can't reach the mineral lines because there's a million roaches in the way. Without the need to 2 shot zerglings, the upgrade can have a lower priority - as opposed to getting out more tanks.
Drops could have been really effective here. Forcing the tanks to siege up with a small force of roaches, then dropping the main army on top of them could have been tough for TLO to handle. Endgame, Ultras dropped on the tanks would have been a definite GG, assuming Losira could have fielded ultras faster than brood lords.
I dont get the +2 upgrade either, y not just pre igniter?? I mean i guess its just good overall but preignitor hellions two shoot lings no matter what anyways.
I think an early burrow upgrade would really help the Z as he could just burrow any low hp drones to save them while he fights off the hellions. Plus some roach traps w burrow could really pay off.
I do like how this build forces Z to get roach which makes him commit to a ground army compared to a mass muta army.
On September 11 2010 13:56 XXXSmOke wrote: I dont get the +2 upgrade either, y not just pre igniter?? I mean i guess its just good overall but preignitor hellions two shoot lings no matter what anyways.
I think an early burrow upgrade would really help the Z as he could just burrow any low hp drones to save them while he fights off the hellions. Plus some roach traps w burrow could really pay off.
I do like how this build forces Z to get roach which makes him commit to a ground army compared to a mass muta army.
Because +2 effects tanks and thors?
Burrowing drones isn't too safe against hellions, because they do splash damage. If you happen to be burrowed in the line of a hellion flame thrower, you still get roasted
I thought about some counters. The build relies on your opponent not doing anything remotely cheesy, due to the late barracks. Kinda makes an early pool, like 9, be quite effective. Even a quick all-in baneling bust with speedlings could do wonders. It takes 3 shots to kill lings that early, and with speed, they can easily keep up and surround hellions no problem. Especially when there's only a few of them out.
I think the 5RR might've worked too. All he has to defend is 1 or 2 marines/hellions. Either go for the scvs or try to kill them.
If you're planning to defend it, maybe some sim city to block off the paths behind the minerals would help. You're making evo chambers and stuff anyway. A well placed spine crawler or 2 with speedling traps on creep might work. You can use queens to help block too.
Example, at the natural on XNC, he could've blocked off the left side with evo chambers, spine crawlers and/or roaches. And just wall the main highway with a few roaches and queens. Way more cost effective than losing mining time + drones.
If I knew my opponent was investing heavily into hellions and mech, I'd invest into spine crawlers and other buildings to block paths with. Sure as hell beats losing drones and mining time.
Mech is very immobile. I would've loved to see some nydus worms and baneling bombs on the mineral line. Just like PvT in BW, they did zealot bombs. I see no reason why it's not used here, thor's anti-air isn't that great against a few overlords dropping (bane)lings onto your tanks. OLs are armored too, so thors do less damage against them and they have more hp than mutas. Although it is a bit of an investment, like 450/450 to get speed and sacs. But that's a lot of friggin transports you get for that much.
I'd suggest baneling bombing hellions, but they move too fast. And after the 1st try, they'd be running away from every overlord they see.
Anyway, just throwing it out there. Mech is very immobile, that's the key to that strategy. As long as you can keep the hellions in check, expand, use nydus worms, overlord drops, etc. Takes a lot of APM, but that's the potential zerg has for mechanical players.
Ok, question about that rep, based perhaps on my lack of experience but: Why didn't the zerg switch to heavy muta soon as and magic box the shiz out of TLO?
He didn't have the critical thor mass that makes muta unviable, and was totally unprepared for heavy air harass...I think?
mutas might have helped but i think he was just a little over commited to go muta.
the other thing about mutas is that they can be really really fragile in a big battle. they either totally pwn or get totally annihilated.
sure they can magic box around thors, but marines still rape them pretty bad. you gotta micro your bane into his marines... but he has lots of marauder soooo.... it kinda comes down to a micro battle and do you really wanna go that route against TLO? ^^ seriously lol.
edit after watching the game a second time i realized that tlo had no marines and basically forced the zerg into committing to roaches in able to get his mechanical death ball rolling. i think a tech switch to muta around the time zerg established his third. at this point tlo was already extremely committed to tanks and hellions and had only 3 thors to fight off air. id say a quick 10 muta or so could have ended the game right there.
Mutas cost way too much gas. Especially that late into the game when he's invested so much into roaches. With 4 geysers, you're only getting enough gas for about 4.5 mutas every minute. Assuming you don't spend the gas on anything else.
he needed to prioritise picking off tanks instead of thors when he was trading armies to slow down TLO's push out to the gold expo, and to help stall until brood lords. could have went for a faster hive imo, game was more or less over by time the brood lords popped. then add some corruptor maybe to kill vikings
we have seen TLO go mech, and bio as a follow up to his fast hellion play but i believe a fast banshee is also possible
gretorp uses a gas first build to get a fast banshee in TvT (build up until first hellion is identical i believe)
this could also be another option after the hellions and strong if the opponent goes mass roach to counter w/o a fast lair (expansion comes after first banshee)
if the banshee option or extension is viable this seems like a very deadly build
On September 11 2010 06:53 avilo wrote: newsflash: just because TLO did it does not mean it's new. Sounds like a solid/common strat though.
Agree with this. Common TvZ opening, excellently executed by one of my favorite players, TLO.
I don't think it's common at all to get that many hellions and use them to attack EVERYTHING not just workers and lings. That's why TLO gets the armory upgrades instead of the blue flame so that way the mass hellions can be strong against whatever the zerg throws at him. TLO was using a lot more hellions than I've ever seen used before and using them in ways I haven't seen. Seems new to me.
On September 11 2010 13:56 XXXSmOke wrote: I dont get the +2 upgrade either, y not just pre igniter?? I mean i guess its just good overall but preignitor hellions two shoot lings no matter what anyways.
I think an early burrow upgrade would really help the Z as he could just burrow any low hp drones to save them while he fights off the hellions. Plus some roach traps w burrow could really pay off.
I do like how this build forces Z to get roach which makes him commit to a ground army compared to a mass muta army.
+2 will make thors 2 shot muta instead of 3 aswell
The counter to this build is the double evo chamber rush.
EDIT: other thoughts
You can have banelings autoburrow. It's not perfect, but it CAN work.
TLO puts up early sensor towers and missile turrets so roach burrow and drops aren't really viable as harass strategies. Also note that TLO opted for 3 orbital commands for extra scans instead of getting the raven.
There were many points when the zerg threw away roaches. I understand he was trying to trade supply, but I think had he kept his roaches numbers up when the broodlords finally made it to the scene and attacked in conjunction, he could have had a chance. Even though the vikings could have cleared out the broodlords eventually, TLO's ground army might have been significantly depleted.
It is just a really strong strategy and Koreans don't (or didn't) really know it. So i'm suprised how good it was defended by the Zerg... he actually played so good that he should have won. Guess he should've made the switch to Ultras... didn't expect the push to be that strong i think ^^
On September 12 2010 02:46 Melt wrote: It is just a really strong strategy and Koreans don't (or didn't) really know it.
I think his opponent did know it--at least well enough to cancel his original plan (canceled a drone to get a faster pool, and eventually faster roach den) to adopt the plan that worked out for him. I think he lost because he made a few costly mistakes, and overall TLO actually played very safe and very well.
On September 11 2010 13:56 XXXSmOke wrote: I dont get the +2 upgrade either, y not just pre igniter?? I mean i guess its just good overall but preignitor hellions two shoot lings no matter what anyways.
I think an early burrow upgrade would really help the Z as he could just burrow any low hp drones to save them while he fights off the hellions. Plus some roach traps w burrow could really pay off.
I do like how this build forces Z to get roach which makes him commit to a ground army compared to a mass muta army.
+2 will make thors 2 shot muta instead of 3 aswell
On September 11 2010 08:01 Zips wrote: So how do you counter this build, anyways?
In the commentary, tastetosis mentioned that he trained for this match with Idra, and idra said "his best chances for beating this seems to be roaches."
But as Idra has also said "there is no safe build against terran" even if you've got a chance of winning with that, it's just a chance. I think to lose with that build you'd have be severely out played by your opponant, but when that guy is TLO that's really living on a prayer.
Is roach probably the best solution? yeah, but you're still going to lose most of the time anyways due to this builds awesomeness, and the total lack of diverse reponses zerg can provide, allows other races to tailor their builds perfectly to these limited options. Something which is going to sting alot more as time progresses.
There is no safe build in Starcraft, which is exactly why we love it so much. And who the hell listens to what Idra says? He may be very skilled and blah di blah, but his head gets in the way, way, wayy too much. Even noticed how TLO never rages when he plays Zerg and just plays the game?
On September 12 2010 05:07 iEchoic wrote: Anyone have a replay/working link? I'm not sure if I have to register but I'm not registering just to watch a vod.
u have to register if u wanna watch it on that site, doesnt take long.
This seems very hard to execute. I would not recommend using this in games that matter. TLO has a history of pulling things off that simply dont work when other people do them.
Very nice build by TLO. +2 hellions will just mess with your economy and iirc a thor with +2 will 2 shot a muta. Very clever build with a solid followup. I think 2 spine crawlers at the nat, 3 queens and lots of slings might be a better alternative to getting roaches. That way you can squeeze mutas out a lot faster.
On September 12 2010 04:59 PimpMobeel wrote: qxc used to do this all the time? also yeah mutas shud be very strong against this but those sensor towers wud make things a tad harder.
If we're thinking of the same build (I use it in most of my tvz games) it's the reactor swap hellions, and I believe the expo would have been slower. It does follow up with thors quite often, though I don't remember him rushing +2. Personally, I feel like you should get preigniter anyway but that +2 is sick for thors and for hellions shooting roaches, and once you're two shotting lings I guess it's redundant.
I tried this build with mixed results last night. Roach openers are hard, kiting them isn't that easy and they take forever to die. I like how fast the expo is though, and you can still transition into bio with hellion support. I also hate how 5 rax reaper forces you into bio all game, and this build gives you more options. All in all, I'm probably butchering the build since I can only go off what I saw in the video, but it's pretty micro intensive and I'm not sure I'll use it a lot since I'm not as good as TLO.
Started using the build today. It definately requires insane micro but the +2 timing attack is just such a fun way to play. Reminds me of the Flash 2-1 build in BW.
Mech is still very viable you just have to get upgrades and put emphasis on your composition.
If he goes heavy roach you go heavy tank
If he goes heavy muta you go heavy thor
If he goes Ultra you go heavy thor w rauder
If he goes muta/bling/sling you go heavy hellion thor.
Im so happy this has restored mech because I love factory units and slowly pushing is so much fun.
If anyone wants some more replays search sc2win.com for TLO vs Madfrog (8 game series, I think he used it in most of the games). The games are from early August. It uses the same FE opener but it hadn't been refined for a quick 2/2 yet.
My problem with the build is how vulnerable you are to early pressure. A baneling bust or 5RR is basically an autowin against this. TLO only has 1 marine and 2 hellions to defend against either one.
On September 12 2010 04:59 PimpMobeel wrote: qxc used to do this all the time? also yeah mutas shud be very strong against this but those sensor towers wud make things a tad harder.
If we're thinking of the same build (I use it in most of my tvz games) it's the reactor swap hellions, and I believe the expo would have been slower. It does follow up with thors quite often, though I don't remember him rushing +2. Personally, I feel like you should get preigniter anyway but that +2 is sick for thors and for hellions shooting roaches, and once you're two shotting lings I guess it's redundant.
I tried this build with mixed results last night. Roach openers are hard, kiting them isn't that easy and they take forever to die. I like how fast the expo is though, and you can still transition into bio with hellion support. I also hate how 5 rax reaper forces you into bio all game, and this build gives you more options. All in all, I'm probably butchering the build since I can only go off what I saw in the video, but it's pretty micro intensive and I'm not sure I'll use it a lot since I'm not as good as TLO.
yeah i was thinking of the reactor hellion expand; this build is just a much more refined version really. i agree with roaches being ridiculously micro intensive to deal with. have u come across a 5 roach rush or something similar using it and if so what were the results?
On September 11 2010 06:42 Edso wrote: hmm it seemed like TLO would have got stomped if the zerg got mutas out, i dunno pure mech is sketchy with magic box mutas.
On the other hand I can also see the hellions forcing the roaches out so Zerg won't have enough gas to be able to tech to mutas.
On September 11 2010 06:53 avilo wrote: newsflash: just because TLO did it does not mean it's new. Sounds like a solid/common strat though.
Yah I'm not going to lie... seen people do this a lot even in beta.
I just wish people would stop attributing everything TLO does to him when it's clearly not his idea. Not to take away anything from the guy, but he's not some super genius innovator. He's not the next Flash. He's just a solid player who has a lot of variance in his playstyle.
On September 11 2010 06:53 avilo wrote: newsflash: just because TLO did it does not mean it's new. Sounds like a solid/common strat though.
Yah I'm not going to lie... seen people do this a lot even in beta.
I just wish people would stop attributing everything TLO does to him when it's clearly not his idea. Not to take away anything from the guy, but he's not some super genius innovator. He's not the next Flash. He's just a solid player who has a lot of variance in his playstyle.
Really? You've seen a lot of people use such a specifically articulated build like this one in the beta? Even though I haven't gotten all the details of the build, I tend to agree with what Artosis said, about how fully structured the build seems to be.
But anyway, who cares? The point isn't to attribute any general idea to anyone in particular. The point is to discuss the actual build(s) TLO used in his matches the past friday. People just get hung up on the mass hellion opening.
On September 11 2010 06:47 Pufftrees wrote: This was definitely a very well thought out build. I'd say this opening is refined to at least a tier ahead of most builds out there. This really feels like a pro sc1 build from a distance.
So you listened to the GomTV cast? Lol.
This isn't some uber pro strat. It's a decent opening in a match up that is full of ez mode openings.
On September 11 2010 12:06 P00RKID wrote: If Z is going mass roach, they will eventually get burrow. Burrow banelings (in clumps of about 4) out in the field somewhere outside of your base where he most likely won't ever scan pre-emptively. When he micros the hellion ball over them, blast 'em. Banelings do nice damage vs hellions since they are light.
was far behind on detection and had to rely on scans the whole game (only getting starports in time to counter broodlords so he never had raven)
Each scan they use to take out a patch of banelings you have is 2-3 hellions they could have made sooner with a Mule. If they don't scan, you can possible kill 3+ hellions. So burrow can give you some map control if done right (not that I'm good enough to do that, but I will try it against this)
Considering how fast hellions are, you'd pretty much have to stare at the minimap the entire time, macroing very little, doing very little else, just to have a chance at potentially maybe getting your money's worth on those unnecessary banelings.
Maybe you should just play better. It's not like people without detection won't learn to split their hellions into smaller packs of few hellions each. Detonating and killing mass hellions becomes more or less a pipe dream when he's running one or two over your banelings at a time. Don't even need detection, just a little common sense.
Maybe banelings possibly arn't the answer entirely, but using some early burrow roaches could be explored more. Players that have the apm can keep up with burrow and macro, so I don't know why you say "Maybe you should just play better" as this is nothing to do with me.
Losira has the capability to burrow 5 or so roaches, let hellions pass over into his base, chase them out with 7 roaches into the burrowed ones, unburrow, and pick off a few hellions. So it doesn't have to be banelings, but just abusing the fact that they have to scan you more. Plus earlyer burrow, although you might be losing out on earlyer 4 roaches, will end up being able to heal your hurt roaches and put up a trap, as well as getting burrow movement later too.
Burrow can be used for map control if done right but it is hard to do/ dont see it used much.
Losira was playing it right by mass roach and attacking and flanking often and you could tell by the look on TLO after the game that he was thrown off. Before the game he was all smiles and confident, then got all serious after the game.
Man this strat really is provin to be just a bitch to pull off. There is so much micro to do that I cant keep the ball rolling w my macro. Im going to switch back to reactor hellion as its safer and easier to pull off.
I am by far no expert but I really don't think alot of the ppl that are commenting about this build are actually understanding everything about it (im sure i don't as well). Its the small things in the build that make it VERY different.
I believe the zerg responded to it extremely well. If he cuts roaches to get Muta's thats 4 roaches for every muta (plus the 8 roaches for the spire).
He (TLO) cut gas early to get a fast expand. This is different and also extremely important about the build. The fast upgrades of course don't just affect the helions and yes lvl 2 was delayed due to constant pressure from zerg with his roaches, which is a credit to zerg player. If the zerg did not keep the pressure on, TLO would have been able to put that pressure on the zerg instead. I can't remember 4 but i wanna say the zerg never got his "natural 3rd (not the gold) because he probably couldnt defend it. I really don't think the zerg had the econ to do this muta switch or any other different tech path everyone seems to think would have stop'd this. Lings over roaches for the extra gas would have been GG for the zerg.
I feel like the way TLO executed this build was good. I think that if the zerg just goes mass speedling the harass will get shutdown ezpz since i can't see any room for blue flame in this build without setting yourself back vs the zerg. I think it could be good for a bo3/bo5 series but probably won't be good enough for standard play.
after watching the game im even MORE certain. roach does not perform well against mech!!!!!!!!!!!!!! fighting there extremely immobile army with your most immobile unit. hahahah
On September 12 2010 14:57 ReachTheSky wrote: I feel like the way TLO executed this build was good. I think that if the zerg just goes mass speedling the harass will get shutdown ezpz since i can't see any room for blue flame in this build without setting yourself back vs the zerg. I think it could be good for a bo3/bo5 series but probably won't be good enough for standard play.
TLO's build Gets A LOT of hellion early on.
Not the normal 4-5 you usually see. Even Without blue flame 6-8 hellion rapes speedling with any decent micro early on.
Later on the +2 just makes muta and lings almost useless since hellion 2 shot lings without flame and thors 2 shot muta instead of 3 shotting them.
i noticed he did get alot of hellion early on. When testing this i've noticed the zerg can out number ur hellions pretty easily with speedlings. i think as long as u don't let your hellions get flanked/surrounded u should be ok. i'm working on transitioning this into a fast marine/tank hellion push before zerg has enough time to drone up. Seems to be working well. I like the opening with a reactor switched onto the factory for faster hellion production. seems to be doing ok. i shall see on ladder.
On September 12 2010 17:03 metaldragon wrote: Later on the +2 just makes muta and lings almost useless since hellion 2 shot lings without flame and thors 2 shot muta instead of 3 shotting them.
This.
Early +2 puts T in a better position against any mid-game mass muta play, which was becoming 'the' strategy for GSL TvZ it seemed.
Personally, I think TLO looked at the way TvZ was being played out, thought to himself "Hmm, how can I get out +2 weapons quickly, so I actually have some AA without relying on marines?", at which point he came up with this build.
anyone know the timings of TLO for gas? I know he takes his workers off gas after he gets the first factory and puts them back on when the nat CC goes down.. anyone know when 2nd/3rd/4th went down? its hard to tell from the game without the VOD