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On September 11 2010 09:45 Lightspeed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 09:33 teamsolid wrote:On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway. You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9. Roaches would've been more than enough to kill the Hellions - If they just stood still.
Hellion range: 5 Roach range: 3
Did you mean if the HELLIONS stood still, the roaches could have owned the hellions?
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On September 11 2010 09:53 Zips wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 09:45 Lightspeed wrote:On September 11 2010 09:33 teamsolid wrote:On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway. You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9. Roaches would've been more than enough to kill the Hellions - If they just stood still. Hellion range: 5 Roach range: 3 Did you mean if the HELLIONS stood still, the roaches could have owned the hellions?
I was suggesting Fungal Growth to shut down the Hellions kiting the Roaches
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On September 11 2010 10:04 Lightspeed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 09:53 Zips wrote:On September 11 2010 09:45 Lightspeed wrote:On September 11 2010 09:33 teamsolid wrote:On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway. You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9. Roaches would've been more than enough to kill the Hellions - If they just stood still. Hellion range: 5 Roach range: 3 Did you mean if the HELLIONS stood still, the roaches could have owned the hellions? I was suggesting Fungal Growth to shut down the Hellions kiting the Roaches
I just don't think thats economically viable, as you're spending 100 gas on the pit, then 150 gas per infestor, assuming you get 2 infestors, thats 400 gas, or 16 roaches you could be getting. Thats sacrificing a lot of roaches which you definitely need.
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Btw, Losira's micro was really good.
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On September 11 2010 10:09 theherder2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 10:04 Lightspeed wrote:On September 11 2010 09:53 Zips wrote:On September 11 2010 09:45 Lightspeed wrote:On September 11 2010 09:33 teamsolid wrote:On September 11 2010 09:32 Lightspeed wrote: Whenever I see Zerg losing to Terran, I usually feel that Infestors could've tipped the battles in favor of Zerg. Fungal Hellions -> They can't run away. NP 5 Thors -> You've just gained 3000/2000 army for the duration of the battle. I've gotten roflstomped by good Infestor play quite a few times. But then again, things might be different at this level of play and I don't really understand Zerg transitions anyway. You can't really do that because it was a mixture of thors and tanks from TLO, since he knew there weren't any mutas on the way. Tanks have 13 range... NP only 9. Roaches would've been more than enough to kill the Hellions - If they just stood still. Hellion range: 5 Roach range: 3 Did you mean if the HELLIONS stood still, the roaches could have owned the hellions? I was suggesting Fungal Growth to shut down the Hellions kiting the Roaches I just don't think thats economically viable, as you're spending 100 gas on the pit, then 150 gas per infestor, assuming you get 2 infestors, thats 400 gas, or 16 roaches you could be getting. Thats sacrificing a lot of roaches which you definitely need.
I assumed that Z would want the pit anyway in order to tech to Hive sooner or later. With the surplus minerals from not getting the roaches Z could make Spines / Lings which might come in handy as well. Anyway, since I'm only theorycrafting, I'll shut up now
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On September 11 2010 07:03 Quotidian wrote: Avilo, it's the specifics of this build that makes it..eh.. specific. I've seen plenty of terrans do early/mass hellions against zerg, but there are some things about this build, like the double armories instead of blue flame, that kind of makes it feel - again - specific to TLO.
The fast +2 is exactly what makes this build fresh. That's the entire point of it. I feel like everyone who says "eh, hellion push, seen that before" are missing out on what TLO is doing here.
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A wall-off at the outer ramp to the 3rd using evo chambers would have made counter-harass w/ hellions really hard, and given zerg a lot more freedom to run Terran around IMO. Even without mutas, zerg was doing a pretty good job of containing and I don't think that going mutas would have prolonged the contain time any longer...the only benefit I can see would be having the spire earlier so that greater spire can start as soon as hive finishes.
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On September 11 2010 06:53 avilo wrote: newsflash: just because TLO did it does not mean it's new. Sounds like a solid/common strat though. I agree as well. Nice build to open with and can transition in to bio or mech depending on the map. Xel'Naga Caverns is quite decent for mech(though I think TLO should have gotten tanks a tad earlier), but bio was a better followup on BS because you need to mobility to be able to protect your back door as well. Drops also seem harder to defend on BS, so the availability of medivacs is also nice.
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I tried this build and owned by burrowed roach and surprise mutas. =/
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On September 11 2010 11:03 mrlie3 wrote: I tried this build and owned by burrowed roach and surprise mutas. =/
TLO had turrets up, btw ^_^
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Lots of people did this in beta including QXC who I saw do it vs ... i think slush, but i could be wrong on KR. I think the T lost though because of losing too many hellions, plus it's easier to pinch them on KR than the open new map.
On September 11 2010 10:19 lossofmercy wrote: Btw, Losira's micro was really good.
I think you, artosis, and tasteless all give him way too much credit. He dove way too much. The comment about him trading is good, but the rate at which he was trading was poor. He could have saved so many roaches if he chose to burrow at key points. If nothing else he could have forced scans.
A switch to muta coupled with the micro you claim he has would have won. Muta micro > 2 thor plus he didn't make those starports until the greater spire was going up so he had a huge window that could have been seized but he let it slip.
I think thors are overrated vs mutas. As long as they dont get a critical mass of them they are easily taken down by spreading the muta in a circle around them.
I think TLO just outplayed the Z straight up.
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I do not have enough apm to do this effectively.
On theory, instead of defending with roaches, how will you defend a roach push into your base? Even though hellions can kite roaches it still takes a while to roast one.
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On September 11 2010 11:13 starcraft911 wrote:Lots of people did this in beta including QXC who I saw do it vs ... i think slush, but i could be wrong on KR. I think the T lost though because of losing too many hellions, plus it's easier to pinch them on KR than the open new map. Show nested quote +On September 11 2010 10:19 lossofmercy wrote: Btw, Losira's micro was really good. I think you, artosis, and tasteless all give him way too much credit. He dove way too much. The comment about him trading is good, but the rate at which he was trading was poor. He could have saved so many roaches if he chose to burrow at key points. If nothing else he could have forced scans. A switch to muta coupled with the micro you claim he has would have won. Muta micro > 2 thor plus he didn't make those starports until the greater spire was going up so he had a huge window that could have been seized but he let it slip. I think thors are overrated vs mutas. As long as they dont get a critical mass of them they are easily taken down by spreading the muta in a circle around them. I think TLO just outplayed the Z straight up.
The key with this build is to get armory very fast and start upgrading while you are aggresive with the helions. You can get +2 very fast and then you can magic box as much as you want, but thors 2 shotting muta is just too much.
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On September 11 2010 11:13 starcraft911 wrote: Lots of people did this in beta including QXC who I saw do it vs ... i think slush, but i could be wrong on KR. I think the T lost though because of losing too many hellions, plus it's easier to pinch them on KR than the open new map.
I think it's the BO and followthrough that is specific to TLO.. Nobody is thinking "OMG! Hellions! Nobody has EVER opened up with that before!"
I think you, artosis, and tasteless all give him way too much credit. He dove way too much. The comment about him trading is good, but the rate at which he was trading was poor. He could have saved so many roaches if he chose to burrow at key points. If nothing else he could have forced scans.
He had turrets up, btw.. but what "key points" were there that burrow would have somehow saved him?
I think TLO just outplayed the Z straight up.
TLO outplayed the shit out of him. It definitely helped that TLO's strat was solid and refreshingly different from most TvZs. The zerg player was no slouch, though.. You're kidding yourself if you think he played poorly. He did very well for himself.
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If Z is going mass roach, they will eventually get burrow. Burrow banelings (in clumps of about 4) out in the field somewhere outside of your base where he most likely won't ever scan pre-emptively. When he micros the hellion ball over them, blast 'em. Banelings do nice damage vs hellions since they are light.
Don't know how viable that is, but TLO + Show Spoiler + was far behind on detection and had to rely on scans the whole game (only getting starports in time to counter broodlords so he never had raven)
Each scan they use to take out a patch of banelings you have is 2-3 hellions they could have made sooner with a Mule. If they don't scan, you can possible kill 3+ hellions. So burrow can give you some map control if done right (not that I'm good enough to do that, but I will try it against this)
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On September 11 2010 12:06 P00RKID wrote:If Z is going mass roach, they will eventually get burrow. Burrow banelings (in clumps of about 4) out in the field somewhere outside of your base where he most likely won't ever scan pre-emptively. When he micros the hellion ball over them, blast 'em. Banelings do nice damage vs hellions since they are light. Don't know how viable that is, but TLO + Show Spoiler + was far behind on detection and had to rely on scans the whole game (only getting starports in time to counter broodlords so he never had raven)
Each scan they use to take out a patch of banelings you have is 2-3 hellions they could have made sooner with a Mule. If they don't scan, you can possible kill 3+ hellions. So burrow can give you some map control if done right (not that I'm good enough to do that, but I will try it against this)
Considering how fast hellions are, you'd pretty much have to stare at the minimap the entire time, macroing very little, doing very little else, just to have a chance at potentially maybe getting your money's worth on those unnecessary banelings.
Maybe you should just play better. It's not like people without detection won't learn to split their hellions into smaller packs of few hellions each. Detonating and killing mass hellions becomes more or less a pipe dream when he's running one or two over your banelings at a time. Don't even need detection, just a little common sense.
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The Micro intensive play required to keep up the harass on those roaches makes that opening less of an option for lower skill players like my self, however that hellion opening is one of my favorite to do.
TLO is just so amazing in how deals with his opponents mass roach attack, stopping the last push with a wall-In and going in for the kill was so damn exciting to watch.
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A lot of you guy's are mentioning the fast +2, but in the actual game TLO wasn't able to get the upgrades as fast as Artosis was talking about. In fact, the zerg had higher upgrades on his roaches. But I'd assume that was due to all the pressure the zerg put out and may have thrown TLO off.
Also, I honestly wouldn't know how to stop this mech build as Z. No one expects such commitment to hellions. You obviously can't go lings and the only unit you can really build for defense is roaches. If you tech to mutas, I guarantee you that the TLO build hellions will make you suffer severely. TLO basically baited the roaches, had a few early thors just in case of mutas and then made siege tanks which just annihilates any zerg ground force.
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On September 11 2010 13:00 tackklee wrote: A lot of you guy's are mentioning the fast +2, but in the actual game TLO wasn't able to get the upgrades as fast as Artosis was talking about. In fact, the zerg had higher upgrades on his roaches. But I'd assume that was due to all the pressure the zerg put out and may have thrown TLO off.
Maybe, but it also seems like against the super heavy roach, the +2 attack upgrade has less of a purpose. Why get the +2: to be able to 2 shot lings with far more versatility than by going pre-igniter. But there are no lings and the hellions can't reach the mineral lines because there's a million roaches in the way. Without the need to 2 shot zerglings, the upgrade can have a lower priority - as opposed to getting out more tanks.
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Drops could have been really effective here. Forcing the tanks to siege up with a small force of roaches, then dropping the main army on top of them could have been tough for TLO to handle. Endgame, Ultras dropped on the tanks would have been a definite GG, assuming Losira could have fielded ultras faster than brood lords.
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