On April 20 2011 04:27 CandyHunterz wrote: i made some variation to this build to fit my playstyle, i found that i was floating on a lot of minerals in the mid game so just by having 2 hatches to pump out lings you still have like at least 400 minerals in the bank to spend. Therefore i add a 3rd inbase hatch after i made all the 4 gases to utilize unit production. Btw, how does spanishiwa drop like that? dropping banelings while overlords are moving? ive seen a lot of pros do it too, do you shift click or something?
Select your ovies, hit the drop hotkey and click on the overlord while it's moving rather than a spot on the ground.
then having nothing selected hold the drop key and start clicking on all the ovies?
really? :|
in bw you needed to have all the ovvies in a different control group, then send them all to the target location and then cycle within the groups with the assigned hotkeys while quickly clicking on the portraits (the one to the left so you dont have to move the mouse).
On April 20 2011 05:27 ElPeque.fogata wrote: could you make it a little clearer?
so you send the ovvies to the target location.
then having nothing selected hold the drop key and start clicking on all the ovies?
really? :|
in bw you needed to have all the ovvies in a different control group, then send them all to the target location and then cycle within the groups with the assigned hotkeys while quickly clicking on the portraits (the one to the left so you dont have to move the mouse).
i find it more confusing now :|
Select all your ovies with stuff in them, tell them to move somewhere in your opponents base (or just test it and tell them to move somewhere on open ground, doesnt matter). As they're moving, while still having them selected, click the drop hotkey (D is default). This will bring up the little cursor thing asking you where to drop, and instead of targetting the ground, you target a single overlord and click. He should drop on the move. You then target the next overlord and click, he should also drop. Etc etc.
On April 20 2011 05:27 ElPeque.fogata wrote: could you make it a little clearer?
so you send the ovvies to the target location.
then having nothing selected hold the drop key and start clicking on all the ovies?
really? :|
in bw you needed to have all the ovvies in a different control group, then send them all to the target location and then cycle within the groups with the assigned hotkeys while quickly clicking on the portraits (the one to the left so you dont have to move the mouse).
i find it more confusing now :|
Select all your ovies with stuff in them, tell them to move somewhere in your opponents base (or just test it and tell them to move somewhere on open ground, doesnt matter). As they're moving, while still having them selected, click the drop hotkey (D is default). This will bring up the little cursor thing asking you where to drop, and instead of targetting the ground, you target a single overlord and click. He should drop on the move. You then target the next overlord and click, he should also drop. Etc etc.
but i should press shift and then the drop hotkey so i don't have to re-press the key again right?.
nice. sounds good. i thought clicking on the overlord whould cause the other overlords to stack with the clicked one.
i'll start a game vs easy cpu to test this when i get home .
On April 20 2011 05:54 ElPeque.fogata wrote: but i should press shift and then the drop hotkey so i don't have to re-press the key again right?.
I am not 100% sure, but the last time I tried it with shift, it failed miserably (I think it didn't drop anything because it was waiting for the overlords to get to their location first). Don't use shift.
I don't use shift, and I do't hold D down. If you click on an ovie rather than the ground it won't clear the drop cursor, and you can do it over and over again. If you misclick is when it starts to get difficult
On April 20 2011 05:54 ElPeque.fogata wrote: but i should press shift and then the drop hotkey so i don't have to re-press the key again right?.
I am not 100% sure, but the last time I tried it with shift, it failed miserably (I think it didn't drop anything because it was waiting for the overlords to get to their location first). Don't use shift.
It's very simple:
1.) Select all your overlords. 2.) Tell them to move somwhere. 3.) While they are moving and you have them selected, press 'D' and then click directly on the overlord you want to unload and it will drop while moving.
To make multiple overlords do it in quick succession press 'D' and then hold down shift while clicking on all of them, don't hold shift while pressing 'D'. If you hold shift while both pressing 'D' and selecting the overlords, then what you described will happen.
The difference is if you hold shift while pressing 'D' AND clicking on all the overlords, you are telling them to first finish traveling and then unload, basically queuing up the commands in succession rather than synchronized or one overriding another. If you press 'D' without holding shift you are just selecting the unload command, then holding shift and clicking just keeps the command loaded on the mouse cursor after you have given the order to a unit rather than reset it back to default.
I(diamond) just played witht his build on shattered temple close posis.I got pushed with 4 tanks and like 15 marines at 8:30 and just couldnt do anything? Usually I dont play zerg but what should I do? I only scouted one reactored rax and assumed a stimtimingpush so I got alot of spines. but they dont do so well against tanks ...
On April 21 2011 00:14 phyK wrote: I(diamond) just played witht his build on shattered temple close posis.I got pushed with 4 tanks and like 15 marines at 8:30 and just couldnt do anything? Usually I dont play zerg but what should I do? I only scouted one reactored rax and assumed a stimtimingpush so I got alot of spines. but they dont do so well against tanks ...
By the 8:30 mark you should already have sufficient units to deal with 4 tanks & 15 marines. Roughly a pair of infestors & +1lings or +1ling/bling depending on the tech path chosen. That can easily handle the above.
I read up on this build and decided I'd blindly give it a shot, some people were saying good things. The late spawning pool/no gas seemed to inspire early pressure, I was hit with speedling rushs, baneling rush, roach rush, proxy rax/bunker+scvs, early protoss zealot/stalker pressure. All of which seemed to hold pretty tight early game. The few games I lost were in the late game where my decision making and macro/control slipped, so I feel I can make it to the late game, but it'll take awhile before I'm comfortable with the lead and can hold it properly.
I read a lot of early posts worrying about the investment in spine crawlers. Essentially without gas you have so many minerals and are so ahead on drones it is a worthwhile investment. It keeps your larvae count high, it defends against a wider range of attacks, you have so much minerals it's not delaying anything, it seems to work well with the positioning that is laid out. (Queens at ramp, spine in range of ramp, spread out to avoid splash, etc).
The lack of aggression is a bit hard to swallow, as people get more used to the build I believe you could get out a strong timing attack against some of the players who will mimic you but get less defense, effectively trying to pull ahead in the econ race. If they out-base you it should be easy to harass.
The genius is that there is no way to out econ this build from early-midgame which is building in zergs favor for mid-late. The typical response is early aggression, which weakens your economy even further. Spanishiwa has come up with a realistic, resilient early defense that, without much decision making, holds almost all early pressure. I'm looking forward to see how the vZ matchups evolve, thanks so much for this golden nugget!
so basically once you get 16 on minerals on each base, and 6 on the gasses you just make units right? and make drones as youre going to expo? (got my answer for ZvT/however ZvP is unclear..)
Since apparently if i understood it right then 16 drones on minerals and 6 on gas is what you want maximum on each base?
If thats right i had insane luck with this build. Also youd make more lings and such zvz yeah? or use queens more to defend(maybe more than 4?)
This strategy is mostly incredible against Terran. The mix of Blings drops, Nydus all around the map, infestors here and there, all leading up to ultralisk in the late game. I didn't lose a single ZvT since trying out the build.
Versus protoss, still not 100% comfortable with it. I can deal huge amounts of damage to the economy, do crazy harass, but I feel that at anytime protoss can just decide to come crush me.
On April 20 2011 03:22 RobotBodies wrote: I've found the build highly susceptible to contains. If a toss 4gates, sees the defenses, then camps outside your natural instead of attacking and expands behind it, he will get ahead of you in five minutes or so while you are struggling to try to break the contain and take a third. For Terran bio into a siege tank hard contain has similar results. The build basically gives up map control for the early and midgame.
To be fair, I'm not very highly skilled, but these are still issues I face.
You didn't read the followup of the build. Tech to lair, get drop tech and use it to drop his base => contain hurt him more than you.
No I get that. It's gimmicky stat that only works some of the time. Drops can be effective if the conditions are just right, but they can also be a big waste of time, larva and money and overloads. Researching ovi speed and sacks takes time. Infestors have much of the same problem. FG and infested terrans work for harassment if everything goes right and the opponent doesn't see it coming. But you can't consistently win games that way. This is actually the exact complaint that most zerg pros have with the infestor and drop play as a viable tournament stratagy. Vs Protoss, if you have your army around the map harassing, they can just walk into your base and kill you.
On April 21 2011 02:19 RobotBodies wrote: No I get that. It's gimmicky stat that only works some of the time. Drops can be effective if the conditions are just right, but they can also be a big waste of time, larva and money and overloads. Researching ovi speed and sacks takes time. Infestors have much of the same problem. FG and infested terrans work for harassment if everything goes right and the opponent doesn't see it coming. But you can't consistently win games that way. This is actually the exact complaint that most zerg pros have with the infestor and drop play as a viable tournament stratagy. Vs Protoss, if you have your army around the map harassing, they can just walk into your base and kill you.
I think Spanishiwa's follow up is a little bit more varied than autoteching to drop play. The viability of drop play is dependent upon the matchup, scouting information, map, etc. On his stream, Spanishiwa often notes that drops won't be effective in certain situations.
When he was on Day9, Spanishiwa pointed out that Zerg has a quite few means of harassment at its disposal and even a very good player will have difficulty shutting down all of them. By delaying gas and not committing to any particular tech, Spanishiwa's economy allows him to explode aggressively to whatever is exploitable from the overseer scouting information.
Regarding your earlier comment regarding 4 gate contains - I don't find there's much to fear. If the four gate doesn't cause significant economic damage, how will Protoss keep up in production of of one base when Spanishiwa switches into agression? How will Protoss keep a sizable containment army and defend against sling runby's aiming to deny any expansion?