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Arid plateau and Xel'Naga Cavern are out. Welcome to Cloud Kingdom and Korhal Compound.
Which maps will you down vote as a Zerg player and why ?
Personally, i hate Tal'Darim ladder version because of rocks on the third It makes ZvP very weird and hard to defend my third. For the same reasons, i voted Entombed Valley.
But i can't decide for my last veto. I don't like the late game on Shakuras Plateau, but i don't like Korhal Compound too ^^
Poll: First veto as a Zerg player ?Shattered Temple (154) 49% Entombed Valley (58) 19% Tal’Darim Altar (25) 8% Shakuras Plateau (23) 7% Cloud Kingdom (16) 5% Antiga Shipyard (16) 5% Korhal Compound (15) 5% Metalopolis (6) 2% 313 total votes Your vote: First veto as a Zerg player ? (Vote): Cloud Kingdom (Vote): Korhal Compound (Vote): Entombed Valley (Vote): Antiga Shipyard (Vote): Metalopolis (Vote): Shakuras Plateau (Vote): Tal’Darim Altar (Vote): Shattered Temple
Poll: Second veto as a Zerg player ?Entombed Valley (63) 32% Tal’Darim Altar (53) 27% Shattered Temple (23) 12% Shakuras Plateau (20) 10% Korhal Compound (15) 8% Antiga Shipyard (9) 5% Cloud Kingdom (8) 4% Metalopolis (8) 4% 199 total votes Your vote: Second veto as a Zerg player ? (Vote): Cloud Kingdom (Vote): Korhal Compound (Vote): Entombed Valley (Vote): Antiga Shipyard (Vote): Metalopolis (Vote): Shakuras Plateau (Vote): Tal’Darim Altar (Vote): Shattered Temple
Poll: Thrid veto as a Zerg player ?Entombed Valley (38) 27% Tal’Darim Altar (24) 17% Shakuras Plateau (23) 16% Shattered Temple (20) 14% Antiga Shipyard (16) 11% Metalopolis (8) 6% Cloud Kingdom (6) 4% Korhal Compound (6) 4% 141 total votes Your vote: Thrid veto as a Zerg player ? (Vote): Cloud Kingdom (Vote): Korhal Compound (Vote): Entombed Valley (Vote): Antiga Shipyard (Vote): Metalopolis (Vote): Shakuras Plateau (Vote): Tal’Darim Altar (Vote): Shattered Temple
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first veto is korhal compound reason new map havnt seen any of games on it dont want to learn the map rather just veto it and move on second veto is shakuras this map is a nightmare vs terran, no good way to attack tanks below ur main are a bitch and a half to deal with and with only 1 real attack path flanks are inceribly hard to set up. didnt vote for a third i have a feeling its gona be cloud kingdom for alot of the same reasons as korhal but since ive seen it alot in gsl im giving it a good try before i veto it
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cloud kingdom seems to have too many chokes/uphills tbh.
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I've got shattered veto'd atlast, entombed because I don't like it, and korhal because I've played some private matches on it and it's incredibly "choky".
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Shattered because a safe 3rd is hard to take early on and the map is super small. TDA because I'm sick of the close position ZvT where Terran siege the natural. And Entombed because I just don't like the map in general.
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Shattered Temple because it's destructable rocks: the map. Taking a "safe" fast third is too difficult.
Tal'Darim Altar is a great map that was ruined by destructable rocks blocking the third base. Thus, like ST, I've chosen to keep it out of my map pool. If the rocks weren't there, I'd unvote this map in a heart beat.
Shakuras Plateau because I feel like ZvP, along with split map scenarios versus Terran (if it ever gets to that point), is a little too difficult. I'm still only diamond, however, so I believe it's mostly due to me being terrible at the game.
I might swap out Shakuras for Korhal depending on how things go, since Apollo said it wasn't a very good map for Zerg in this video.
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I'm surprised more of you guys aren't vetoing antiga. easy third for toss and middle is brutal against t, plus drops are really annoying x.x I actually like shattered too!
So far I'm vetoing antiga, metal (too old, feels small, like no where to engage well). For the third, well either tda (too big, kind of annoying against toss) or one of the new ones (needs more testing).
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Vetoed Antiga, Entombed and Shattered.
Antiga because of gold in the middle and the possibility of bad spawns against Terran with the "rotational symmetry". Entombed because horizontal spawns are brutal. Debated whether to veto Shattered or Tal'Darim, I went with Shattered for now. May change to Tal'Darim if the cliff abuse there gets too aggravating.
D:
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I'm surprised Korhal Compound isn't #1 for zerg veto. Total low base count, relatively small size, and no remote locations to hide bases.
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Not sure about Korhal Compound yet and Cloud Kingdom may end up being bad, but it seems okay.
Right now, I have Shattered - close rush distances, ridiculous close air positions, impossible to take 3rd quickly as a reaction to FE builds, free gold base for toss/terran, impossible to attack into 3rd or gold positions ever, very easy to split the map.
TDA - sucks against fast expand builds due to rocks and hard to defend bases. the chokes at the natural and 3rd leave you so open to all sorts of 2 base timings with tanks or sentries, as well as blink stalkers. incredibly easy for terran/protoss to take a 3rd and 4th base.
Antiga Shipyard - anything other than cross positions are awful basically. I love the map for ZvZ and for any matchup in cross spawns, even though it's really easy for T/P to get a 3rd and it can be quite hard to get a 4th base up, it's a fun map anyway.
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Shattered temple and shakuras plateau. No third veto.
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On February 15 2012 20:34 VoirDire wrote: Shattered temple and shakuras plateau. No third veto.
same here. temple vs protoss is retarded.
trying to stop 3rd expo on shakuras with a planetary there, small choke and tanks in range to defend natural and third is also retarded.
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Wow!! Veto entombed valley? That is like free 3rd base. I like that map
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On February 15 2012 20:56 Tristanity wrote: Wow!! Veto entombed valley? That is like free 3rd base. I like that map
Doesn't it have rocks blocking it?
On topic: I'm crossing out all maps that aren't in the GSL... if I ever play that is.
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Obviously Shattered (impossible to take a quick third), Tal'darim (tanks sieging your nat) and Entombed Valley (broken spawns).
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On February 15 2012 20:56 Tristanity wrote: Wow!! Veto entombed valley? That is like free 3rd base. I like that map
I'm vetoing it because it's also a pretty much free base for T and P, which makes it really hard. Especially ZvP imo.
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1shattered (rocks) 2antiga (very hard zvt/p) 3taldarim(hard to hold third,abusive play(cliff))
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I've only veto-ed Entombed Valley because it's really difficult to break a protoss who turtles on 2 base FFE and then into 3 base deathball pushes.
As for the two new maps, it seems like holding the third could be difficult but I haven't had much experience with them yet so I'll hold onto those vetos for now. If getting a third and holding it proves to be difficult then I might veto it like XNC.
I see a lot of Shattered Temple down votes, is that because of close air position protoss drops? haha. -edit- I realised it could also be due to rocks.
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I vetoed Antiga first and foremost, that map is a joke to play as Zerg vs Protoss, the toss gets 3 easy free bases and there are imbalanced spawn positions as well, fuck that map.
Also vetoed Entombed Vally because that map is basically a shitty rehash of that other old map nobody liked.
Then I chose to veto Tal'Darim because I just don't like that map very much.
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Shattered Temple Tal’Darim Altar
Only 2 veto. I just dislike rocks on my third. In addition, on shattered temple, I find the natural bad to attack in. And you need to attack there or uphill on the third vs P and T.
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On February 15 2012 19:40 snexwang wrote:Shattered Temple because it's destructable rocks: the map. Taking a "safe" fast third is too difficult. Tal'Darim Altar is a great map that was ruined by destructable rocks blocking the third base. Thus, like ST, I've chosen to keep it out of my map pool. If the rocks weren't there, I'd unvote this map in a heart beat. Shakuras Plateau because I feel like ZvP, along with split map scenarios versus Terran (if it ever gets to that point), is a little too difficult. I'm still only diamond, however, so I believe it's mostly due to me being terrible at the game. I might swap out Shakuras for Korhal depending on how things go, since Apollo said it wasn't a very good map for Zerg in this video.
exactly what he did. those three maps are too difficult to take 3rd as zerg and against certain strategies that protoss uses against me, some of them require me to take a 3rd or i'm gonna be in for a very lop sided game. I played more than 5 games on ladder on korhol compound, and it's quite a pleasant map to play on. It's certainly a very different map style than other maps as your bases are sort of lined out for you. And as apollo said in his video, you really only can take 5 bases max, after that you have to make a huge move. they were all fun games though, the terrain lay out makes manoeuvres and flanking attacks more rewarding
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I only vetoed Shattered Temple. I've been thinking of vetoing Tal,Darim because of hellions and mass ling.
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On February 15 2012 19:46 KimJongChill wrote: I'm surprised more of you guys aren't vetoing antiga. easy third for toss and middle is brutal against t, plus drops are really annoying x.x I actually like shattered too!
So far I'm vetoing antiga, metal (too old, feels small, like no where to engage well). For the third, well either tda (too big, kind of annoying against toss) or one of the new ones (needs more testing).
I find it pretty easy to deny Toss's third on Antiga. Also, the hidden pylon placement is very predictable.
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They're all in leagues so I guess none of them
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I find it interesting to read through this thread and then to read the Protoss veto thread. Our protoss enemies seem to all agree that Shattered is a nightmare to play against Zerg on because of the wide open middle.
They also do not like to play against Zerg on Metal.
My vetos will be: TalDarim, Entombed, and probably Shattered.
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I'm surprised there aren't many vetoes of cloud kingdom. Looks cool, but find all the ramps annoying to try to get good positioning zvt and zvp
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I will test Korhal Compound, but I am not a fan at the moment. The third looks really difficult to hold :/ So a possible veto on it. Possibly Entombed because the third is kinda hard to hold for me against toss, and they can take theirs easier. But i really like it in the other match ups so, hm... tricky.
Else i will have my veto left on metal and Shattered.
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Shattered: I find it hard to play against fast expanding Toss and Terrans on this map. Fast 3rd is really hard to hold which leads me to 2 base all ins on this map.
TalDarim: Rocks at the 3rd is enough to make me not want to play this map.
Entombed: Just never played this map much. It is not the worst, It has an easy 3rd base, but I find it hard to break a toss that turtles on 3 base on that map.
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Really you guys veto TDA just because of that tank natural push? I mean, the map has been out for almost an year and i'm pretty sure we all know how to deal with that push easely, and since you repel that, from there, it gets pretty easy to go 4 bases and roll over the terran..really i don't think i have lost that many ZvTs on this map at all and from that tank push too...
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You forgot to include the real man's choice in the poll: Don't use your vetoes.
Personally, I like getting experience on all the ladder maps. It adds to the variety when laddering, and prepares me for any ladder map in case of a tournament. I think it's a good idea to learn how to play on maps that you think are hard for your race or don't fit with your usual style. It makes you a better player in the long run, even if it hurts your W/L ratio (read: e-peen).
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On February 15 2012 23:57 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote: Really you guys veto TDA just because of that tank natural push? I mean, the map has been out for almost an year and i'm pretty sure we all know how to deal with that push easely, and since you repel that, from there, it gets pretty easy to go 4 bases and roll over the terran..really i don't think i have lost that many ZvTs on this map at all and from that tank push too...
Elevator play is pretty gay on TDA aswell. ZvZ is always 14/14banes as natural is very hard to hold + i dont like to take far away third vs P/T.
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On February 15 2012 23:25 Moosegills wrote: I'm surprised there aren't many vetoes of cloud kingdom. Looks cool, but find all the ramps annoying to try to get good positioning zvt and zvp
I find it a nice map, although I haven't laddered on it yet, only done some customs before the season started. It has a lot of options for zerglings to do counterattacks and I like the positioning of the bases.
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Any zerg who doesn't veto korhal compound and entombed valley is crazy.
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I found if i use Veto i always play against Z hmmm.... reason everyone vetos the same thing per each race meaning you have less chance of playing aginst a diferent race. I usually just learn the maps and what i can do on them and what i cant rather than just saying i cant play on it. Although if all your into is winning by making things easier go for it
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I currently only have Shattered vetoed. After going 3-10 on it, I realized it just wasn't working out for me. I actually manage to do well on Antiga, currently at 17-5, though I finished in gold last season and am in plat this season. Korhal looks like another one that may be getting a veto soon, haven't played on it enough to tell though.
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On February 16 2012 00:48 OptIn wrote: I found if i use Veto i always play against Z hmmm.... reason everyone vetos the same thing per each race meaning you have less chance of playing aginst a diferent race. I usually just learn the maps and what i can do on them and what i cant rather than just saying i cant play on it. Although if all your into is winning by making things easier go for it
That's not true. The map on which you play is determined after your opp. has been found, your map vetoes has zero impact on the matchups you will play on ladder!
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On February 15 2012 23:57 ThE)ShoWTimE wrote: Really you guys veto TDA just because of that tank natural push? I mean, the map has been out for almost an year and i'm pretty sure we all know how to deal with that push easely, and since you repel that, from there, it gets pretty easy to go 4 bases and roll over the terran..really i don't think i have lost that many ZvTs on this map at all and from that tank push too...
For me I veto this map primarily because of ZvZ and the obligation to go heavy bane/ling openers due to the size of the ramp and entrance to the main. ZvT on TDA is fine, really. ZvP is pretty bland on it because Muta is such an obvious go to on it.
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Shattered: annoying 2 base T pushes while I'm attempting to break those damn rocks.
Cloud Kingdom: for now until I get more customs in.
Entombed: Turtled Toss pain to break, only reason.
Once I get better @ CK I will use my veto on TDA.
Korhal is alright. It's hard to hold the third against tanks and 7 gates. But that "destiny" mass spine and 40+ muta build works well at denying everything.
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On February 15 2012 19:20 psychotics wrote: first veto is korhal compound reason new map havnt seen any of games on it dont want to learn the map rather just veto it and move on second veto is shakuras this map is a nightmare vs terran, no good way to attack tanks below ur main are a bitch and a half to deal with and with only 1 real attack path flanks are inceribly hard to set up. didnt vote for a third i have a feeling its gona be cloud kingdom for alot of the same reasons as korhal but since ive seen it alot in gsl im giving it a good try before i veto it That's not the way you should play this game, mate. Just because you've never seen someone play on this map, it doesn't mean that you don't know how to play it. I think you should analyze the game with YOUR play-style in mind and make your own strategies / builds. The dumbest thing to do in SC2 is to get stuck with the "I only do player X's build". You don't gain any game knowledge and you find yourself struggling against some play-styles you've seen a pro play before. Yes, you can copy someone's opener or try to mimic a play-style, but you should always add your own twist and try to make it work with what you know.
That being said, if you were to veto Korhal, it could be because it's really hard to secure a fast third against timing attacks that come from the high ground and it is really hard to do counter attacks.
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All maps are regularly used in tournament play and are fairly balanced.I am keeping all maps in my play pool. For the people who veto threemaps: severely limiting your variety of maps to play on may increase boredom and frustration.
As a suggestion, focus less on maps (and therefore focus less on winning) and more on improving and growth.
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I downvote Shattered, Shakuras, and Entombed Valley.
Entombed Valley has ridiculous tank pushes still and promotes turtley games ZvT and ZvP. I'm over Shattered Temple. Played enough games on it and I'm bored of it. Shakuras... I have mixed feelings, but would rather play other maps.
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I think im just going to downvote Korhal Compound and Entombed Valley, Terran just rapes my 3rd so hard on Korhal!! they can get the high ground, and with the amound of chokes, the tanks can seriously take advantage of splash damage. What do you guys think of that map? I dont really like vetoing maps, but Korhal and Entombed just feel like T and P can abuse the amound of chokes. Especially Entombed vs a Protoss, they can turtle real hard since their 3 bases can just be force fielded and its easy to get a tigh defence.
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I veto Shakuras, Shattered, and Entombed. Shattered because lolrocks, Shakuras because I find it so difficult to do anything other than let toss get their max deathball and try to kill it, and Entombed because I just don't like it. Korhal may replace one of those if it turns out to be as bad as some ppl are saying (I've only played ZvZ on it so far, so IDK firsthand).
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Every time I play on korhal, I just lose my third...uncontested This map is stupid.
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Shattered Temple and Entombed.
Korhal is kinda annoying ZvP but it feels free win in ZvT. Same for Cloud Kingdom.
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i love this thread because now i can avoid playing zvz on ladder a little more
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On February 16 2012 05:25 Tal0n wrote:i love this thread because now i can avoid playing zvz on ladder a little more
The maps you veto don't effect the matchups you get. You are first found an opponent, and then the map is chosen from the pool of maps that neither of you have vetoed.
I'm thinking antiga for sure, but not sure what to veto between cloud kingdom, korhal, and entombed.
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1st veto: Shattered Temple, just hate this map. Been around too too long. It's the new XNC for that reason alone. 2nd veto: Metalopolis, too constricted 3rd veto: None, I don't mind Entombed Valley that huge wide open middle is pretty nice.
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I think Entombed valley is completely imbalanced, especially if horizontal positions. As you have probably seen on some streams, spawning on horizontal positions means that it is very hard to take a third because a Protoss or Terran can just get a good position inbetween your third and theirs, making it almost impossible to take a third due to their siege weapons (colossus, tanks). So I definetely veto'd that map. It's too tight anyway, hard to get a good position and its also way too good for force fields. Same problem that typhon peaks had. I am also vetoing Shakuras and Shattered Temple. Shakuras ZvT has always been an issue for me, the terran can just put tanks on the ledge and I can't do shit about it. Sure, I can lob infested terrans up there with my infestors, but that's about it. For Shattered Temple, it is hard to get a third in response to a protoss FFE, I usually just go for some 2 base baneling drop all in. It's pretty gimmicky too, especially with the gold. It's good in the late game, but getting to the late game on that map is pretty hard.
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Only using one veto, dont really like playing against Protoss on shattered, too easy for them to turtle up.
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Now cmon people... Buck up sissy pants! because of your down voting I get less diversity when i play you... sad face ...
And please dont bring up that art of war bs : A good general choose his fights and never engage a fight he cant win. A good general wouldnt abandon a whole country(map) just becasue its hard to defend he would use his disadvantage as a bait and counter his predictable oponent with special tactics.
Special tactics!!!
I may not be a good exemple since I did not play much of 1v1 but I never down voted a map, not even incineration zone or steppes of war... they all brought crazy games and made me learn things i wouldnt have considered otherwise.
Bad map is no excuse for bad sportsmanship, just think on your feet and embrace the challenge of defeating an oponnent with a disadvantage.
now i feel nostlagic for desert oasis...
Vetos are for sissy pants and politicians, do not endulge
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I actually liked Arid Plateau, I had no problem with the map, and kind of wish it wasn't removed.
1. Shattered Temple. No question the worst map ever, I've always vetoed this. Protoss FFE is just a huge pain in the ass, yes, roach/ling all-in is stronger but just as always toss just scouts, and even if he is an idiot, you are just hoping he doesn't make 2 cannons (or 4 depending on version). The problem, is that you can't take a fast third (at least not without considerable cost or danger). Toss also takes a free third, and their fourth is also free, and a gold no less.
In ZvT it's a pain that the map is fairly straightforward with little ability to counterattack. Any map where you can't counterattack is broken ZvT, that's why Shakuras was removed (at least shakuras is big macro map though with lots of space for mutas).
ZvZ is pretty lame when you can't take a third before lair either. It's just low econ muta vs muta wars. I suppose it's not impossible to take a third though, since you should have units out by ~50 supply, but it just delays it. Not the worst ZvZ map tbh, but lack of counterattacks on third is kind of lame.
2. Antiga Shipyard. Tournamen version would be okay, but the 2/3 chance of close spawn is absolutely broken in so many ways.
ZvZ, it's straight up broken for one of the players - it means one guy can attack towards the third or natural, and the other has to defend at 2 different locations, while the other guy largely just has to defend the choke to his natural. Totally screwed up, not just in ZvZ, but every match-up.
ZvT... siege tanks from main to third, or third to main, is a total joke. Not to mention dropship play where they turret up their third/main, siege up in third/main, and then drop marines onto your side. That just sucks. And then putting up turrets at their third/main, and using it as a way to deny muta harass/effectiveness while dropping to your side. What a joke. Not to mention Terran can just take an easy fourth in the gold, while your fourth is really far and hard to protect on certain close spawns (actually both close spawns, even harder when it's his third - your main).
For ZvP, the map is fairly imbalanced in favor of zerg, when against FFE. Zerg just takes the gold as his third, and due to the nature of FFE, Toss can't punish it. Forcefields at the third are a bit annoying. Close spawn in general against Toss is a pain though, and is true on this map too. Way too close.
If it was only cross positions, and then they removed the gold due to imbalance of fast fourth gold by T, impossibility of Z ever taking gold in ZvT due to central location and T just turtling it up, and imbalance of fast gold vs FFE in favor of Zerg, then the map would be okay. Why it's still in the broken form it is, I don't know.
3. Entombed Valley. Not the worst map in the world, but I absolutely hate how stupidly easy it is for Toss to take their third. They just open some stupid all-in (or super greedy fast third play), and if their all-in fails (or going super fast cheesy third) they just make 4 sentries and take it with no problem. A little too easy for Toss to take their third. While the Zerg third is somewhat easy, the rocks make it unfair that Zerg has to deal with the damn rocks, while Toss gets a super easy third. If you are going to make the Toss third easy, you need to make Zerg third and fourth easy too (and zergs fourth isn't too easy).
Close spawn laterally though, is a total fucking joke. 1/3rd of the time, but still too much. Longitudinal spawn is okay, a little too short, pretty bad, but not as bad as ST or close spawn Antiga.
Now onto what I think of the other maps:
TDA. Sieging the natural is always a huge pain in the ass, especially when there are rocks at the third denying you from just temporarily transferring drones to deal with the push. A small imbalance, but made up for in huge map size. I wish the rocks weren't at the third, but maybe that's bias, as I know the GSL used to not have rocks there, and then put them there after something obviously showed to them that it was imbalanced not to have rocks there. Toss taking the third is a bit too easy. In general the attacker has too strong a positional advantage against the defender when fighting against the third (a huge pain in the ass in ZvZ infestor battles). Going fast third is a HUGE pain in the ass in ZvP, a good blink stalker all-in will kill you since the long rally times of taking a far third or killing your econ to break the rocks, but this is somewhat made up for due to how amazing mutalisks (and therefore 2 base muta) can be on this map.
Metalopolis. This map I think is imbalanced in favor of Zerg in ZvP. If Toss actually goes FFE, I just take the gold as my natural in a fast third style of play. No way an equally skilled Toss will ever win, ever. Against gateway expands, the normal third is pretty easy to hold, and counterattacking the Toss third is somewhat easy, so it's a bit more balanced, but imo still zerg favored. In ZvT, Terran taking the gold as 3rd or 4th is a bit imbalanced, while denying Zerg from taking it. This map seriously needs to get rid of the Gold, but I usually enjoy the imbalance rather than suffer from it (toss going FFE on that map is more common than super lategame ZvT, and I have great ZvT).
Shakuras Plateau. Nice ZvP map. Nice ZvZ map. Terrible, absolutely trash ZvT map. You can never counterattack, so it doesn't matter how disastrous the early game is for Terran, they just get enough siege tanks, eventually take their third, turtle up, mass ghosts, then split the map and get a huge ghostball and win. Hopefully the patch will address this imbalance some, but it's still broken that you can't threaten counterattacks at all on this map. Just ruins high-level ZvT, completely broken. In lower levels this isn't a problem, even in mid-masters this isn't a problem, but when playing/observing with GMs or high masters, Terran just turtles up siege tanks, takes third, masses ghosts, wins.
Not sure how Korhal or Cloud will be, but I look forward to them. Koral seems kind of like Arid Plateau, and I actually liked that map. I also kind of liked XNC, but there were imbalances on it due to map size and the gold and limited number of bases, which Korhal/Arid dealt with.
I do wish I could veto TDA and Shakuras though, I feel like Zerg should get 2 extra vetos.
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Shattered and Entombed for me.
I actually miss maps like Scrap Station and Desert Oasis as they provided for interesting tactics...does anyone else have old maps they'd like to bring back, or instate a BW map (Paranoid Android)?
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I feel like the rush distance in shattered temple on close by air spawn is somewhat broken in ZvT. Tank and Thor rush is possible because natural to natural is so close together.
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A lot of you guys hate on shattered, but I just love that ledge against terran. I've won some games from the scouting potential that ledge gives me haha. Now I don't know about you, but I don't really like cloud, the third feels far away and really out there, where subsequent expansions feel soo far away? I guess there is good possibility for counterattacks. I think entombed is tough to play against turtling t/p players, but for some reason I have a pretty decent win rate on that map. I'm not sure, but something about the map is good for zerg I think.
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Shattered, Entombed and Shakuras.
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I might end up disliking Korhal ... and maybe even cloud kingdom but right now I am just enjoying the variety and not vetoing anything yet
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Man... can't believe how many people veto'd shattered and entombed. Those are great zerg maps!! you can own the mid totally! it's wide open, almost no chokes... side paths... wow... You can just keep expanding and expanding and your opponent requires a really powerful army to fight you in the wide-open midfield.
But people want to play Shakuras Plateau, with the worst midfield for zerg of any map on the ladder except for maybe Cloud Kingdom? Man... People don't understand the power of choke points and high ground in the midfield, or rather, the power for terran and protoss. I'll take an opponent on 3 turtley, impossible to attack bases, rather then the 5-6 bases terrans usually enjoy on Shakuras - and thats not even talking about the obnoxious tanks-on-high-ground stuff.
I veto Shakuras (too old, too chokey), Antiga (garbage imba map), and nothing else.
I might veto Cloud Kingdom, and I really take issue with this map. Who thought it would be a good idea to FILL a map with high ground, and chokes that are totally walled off with 3 forcefields/3 thors? The multiple counter attack paths don't make a fucking difference when it is so easy for P and T to craft an army which can't be approached in these narrow corridors. Nearly every game I play vs mech or heavy-sentry-stuff turns into a base race because the only solution is avoiding the enemy army entirely. There are nearly no places for a 200/200 zerg army to fight favorably against a 200/200 T/P army. No favorable terrain. At all. On the entire map. Its pretty bad for melee units. Pretty awesome for long ranged deathballs though.
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On February 16 2012 10:55 Belial88 wrote:
[...]
Shakuras Plateau. Nice ZvP map. Nice ZvZ map. Terrible, absolutely trash ZvT map. You can never counterattack, so it doesn't matter how disastrous the early game is for Terran, they just get enough siege tanks, eventually take their third, turtle up, mass ghosts, then split the map and get a huge ghostball and win. Hopefully the patch will address this imbalance some, but it's still broken that you can't threaten counterattacks at all on this map. Just ruins high-level ZvT, completely broken. In lower levels this isn't a problem, even in mid-masters this isn't a problem, but when playing/observing with GMs or high masters, Terran just turtles up siege tanks, takes third, masses ghosts, wins.
[...]
A good read, nice to hear your opinions on the maps, especially your analysis of Antiga. One question about Shakuras: why do you think it's a good ZvP map? ZvP-wise, it's always against FFE, and I feel like it's an inverted version of TDA, in that the third is easy to take, but hard to hold. A solid chunk of the time, I lose the third because I'm trying to keep up with FFE econ and underestimate how much he's sending to the third. But if I overmake units to hold off a few zeal/stalker, I end up behind and die to 5gate blink or 7 gate. My only solution thus far is go two-base muta with a macro hatch. Still, even then, it's so easy for P to sneak a pylon near the fourth and warp zealots into the third, or put cannons on the high ground near the minerals of the third.
The only wins I have ZvP on shakuras are the odd muta harasses that kill lots of workers, muta-ling base race, and nydus/proxy hatch. Oh, and that guy who went dual robo immortals against my two-base muta.
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On February 19 2012 07:01 KimJongChill wrote: A lot of you guys hate on shattered, but I just love that ledge against terran. I've won some games from the scouting potential that ledge gives me haha. Now I don't know about you, but I don't really like cloud, the third feels far away and really out there, where subsequent expansions feel soo far away? I guess there is good possibility for counterattacks. I think entombed is tough to play against turtling t/p players, but for some reason I have a pretty decent win rate on that map. I'm not sure, but something about the map is good for zerg I think.
Cloud is nice because it's tough for an FFE protoss to push up to your third, since there's a second ramp you can use to flank, as they are often only prepared to FF the ramp and not expecting a flank. The twin ramps make it so that there's always a way to flank or counter, whether vP or vT, and the two towers are in perfect spots, you'll see them move out almost as soon as they move outside their wall (so you have plenty of time to set up an ambush, you can run in while tanks are unsieged, etc.). Plus, if you put creep tumors on the edge of the main, the creep can spread to the third in three or four tumors. And then your fourth is just down the ramp from your third.
Also, against a terran who puts a planetary at their third, it's easy to swing banelings in from the outside (not the ramp, the lateral open space) and into the mineral line. Works wonders. Beware of tanks on the cliff of the main, though.
Don't forget that cloud has a cliff area above the natural, spotting a forge upgrading and 4+ zeals can be a big tell.
Cloud is my favorite map at the moment.
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i have only voted Shattered because of the third not accesible
i fucking love the mappool, just compare it to the one we had like 6 months ago.
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Antiga and metal, reduces the chance of zvz, and the maps are a bit to easy for zerg anyway. Like the map pool for zerg, but i hope more maps will go the korhal compound giving terran a few more positions.
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well.. I veto Cloud Kingdom, reason is cuz I get crushed by all the force fields from toss due to all the chokes etc. Open area is basically non-existance on that map : (
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really, i dont like to veto tournaments map, tha's why i think to veto shatterd temple isnt good
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One question about Shakuras: why do you think it's a good ZvP map? ZvP-wise, it's always against FFE, and I feel like it's an inverted version of TDA, in that the third is easy to take, but hard to hold. A solid chunk of the time, I lose the third because I'm trying to keep up with FFE econ and underestimate how much he's sending to the third. But if I overmake units to hold off a few zeal/stalker, I end up behind and die to 5gate blink or 7 gate. My only solution thus far is go two-base muta with a macro hatch. Still, even then, it's so easy for P to sneak a pylon near the fourth and warp zealots into the third, or put cannons on the high ground near the minerals of the third.
I don't think the third is hard to hold - there is a huge open area right in front of the natural that you should be engaging at, and then there is a choke to it that isn't too small, but can take advantage of spines. So you put a few spines at top of third, and engage him right when he's at bottom of ramp with rest of army. The third isn't impossible to hold, and it also isn't free.
The first few zealots or stalkers isn't much, you should always be able to hold it off with a single spine or some lings made when his units are halfway across the map.
If you are having trouble with gateway all-ins, make a thread about it. They are pretty hard to deal with, I still have trouble with 7 gate blink all-ins. I still haven't ever seen a pro vod of a zerg holding it when going fast third.
You should always be checking to make sure a probe isn't in that fourth and putting in a pylon. Unlike, say, cloud kingdom, ST, or Metal, it's quite hard to sneak a probe on Shakuras, You just make 4 lings at start, send 2 at watch towers, then the other 2 to clear our your third and fourth to make sure no hidden probe. If you watch pro zergs play, they follow a simple anti-probe route on that map and Toss can't ever hide probes.
Don't forget that cloud has a cliff area above the natural, spotting a forge upgrading and 4+ zeals can be a big tell.
Where?
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The map pool right now is honestly awful for zerg. I hadn't vetoed any, because I really wanted to give the community made maps a chance, but its literally impossible to beat a protoss on either of the maps (or at all,lol). So, I'm vetoing Cloud Kingdom, Korhal Compound for that reason, they are just horrible. I guess shattered is my 3rd veto because of the rocks.
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On February 19 2012 07:48 6xFPCs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 07:01 KimJongChill wrote: A lot of you guys hate on shattered, but I just love that ledge against terran. I've won some games from the scouting potential that ledge gives me haha. Now I don't know about you, but I don't really like cloud, the third feels far away and really out there, where subsequent expansions feel soo far away? I guess there is good possibility for counterattacks. I think entombed is tough to play against turtling t/p players, but for some reason I have a pretty decent win rate on that map. I'm not sure, but something about the map is good for zerg I think. Cloud is nice because it's tough for an FFE protoss to push up to your third, since there's a second ramp you can use to flank, as they are often only prepared to FF the ramp and not expecting a flank. The twin ramps make it so that there's always a way to flank or counter, whether vP or vT, and the two towers are in perfect spots, you'll see them move out almost as soon as they move outside their wall (so you have plenty of time to set up an ambush, you can run in while tanks are unsieged, etc.). Plus, if you put creep tumors on the edge of the main, the creep can spread to the third in three or four tumors. And then your fourth is just down the ramp from your third. Also, against a terran who puts a planetary at their third, it's easy to swing banelings in from the outside (not the ramp, the lateral open space) and into the mineral line. Works wonders. Beware of tanks on the cliff of the main, though. Don't forget that cloud has a cliff area above the natural, spotting a forge upgrading and 4+ zeals can be a big tell. Cloud is my favorite map at the moment.
Wow, never looked at it that way, guess I should reconsider playing on it. Heard there's no space shark though >:c
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there is a space shark dude. and its legit as hell
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I have a question about the new maps:
Where do you send the overlords? I've lost so many games on Korhal because my first 2 overlords get killed wandering through the sides of the map, and then I can't scout shit and I have no idea what's going on and lose. Can't even tell if T expanded.
Is there like any cliff spot, like on Belshir or TDA where you can put an overlord on some tiny 1x1 space that the opponent can't see?
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On February 16 2012 01:16 Pteppic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 00:48 OptIn wrote: I found if i use Veto i always play against Z hmmm.... reason everyone vetos the same thing per each race meaning you have less chance of playing aginst a diferent race. I usually just learn the maps and what i can do on them and what i cant rather than just saying i cant play on it. Although if all your into is winning by making things easier go for it That's not true. The map on which you play is determined after your opp. has been found, your map vetoes has zero impact on the matchups you will play on ladder!
Do you have a source for this? It would make a lot of sense of it was like this.
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PvZ shattered temple just rapes your nuts, plus mutas are not as strong on that map AS other maps. Which also kinda affects TvZ. Also lings are not as strong on a smaller map like that(If you catch them out in the open its a different story) but the mobility is not as effective. Korh ive never played but just looks gross and this season I dont actually have a third veto yet. But I am just coming off a pretty long sc2 break so that'll probably change soon.
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On February 19 2012 11:39 Belial88 wrote: I have a question about the new maps:
Where do you send the overlords? I've lost so many games on Korhal because my first 2 overlords get killed wandering through the sides of the map, and then I can't scout shit and I have no idea what's going on and lose. Can't even tell if T expanded.
Is there like any cliff spot, like on Belshir or TDA where you can put an overlord on some tiny 1x1 space that the opponent can't see?
There are spots- try the cliff between the natural and third, the cliff between the XelNaga and the natural, and the cliff outside the fourth base. Other than that, you'll just have to rely on some map control to spread overlords throughout the map if you want vision.
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wow , I don't veto shattered temple , I really like it for my Z even vs T (zvp is kind of uber good cause of gold and large muta harras area 'n stuff) I have on veto shakuras and taldarim atm from last season , opened this to find the 3rd map since that 2 players desert shitty map is out now but kind of already made my mind for cloud kingdom(stupid 2 players map bad for z vs t) or maybe entombed valley(the gsl version of it has suplay at ramp and no close orizontal spawns wich make it a lot more playable but blizzard is too stupid to make something like that)
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I've found that the only way to play ZvP on Cloud Kingdom is muta/ling with a big old base trade at the end. The map is really cool for flanks in ZvT, but it falls apart in ZvP, where flanks don't do shit when they've got FF+Collosus.
Anyway, as for me, I've got
Shakuras Plateau - impossible to break terran late-game, and very difficult to hold more than 4 bases for zerg. Shattered Temple - Very difficult to play against protoss on this map due to the viability of FFE and difficulty of 3 base. Entombed Valley - impossible to hold 3-base vs toss gateway pushes. You can take a third, but good luck defending it.
I must be the only one who liked Arid Plateau. Nice third base, pretty open in the middle. Hellion harass was difficult, but I was handling it alright with Blade's roach opener. Toss could FFE if they dared, but it was difficult, and rush distance was pretty long.
Also, the zergs that T-down metalopolis blow my mind. That's like, the best map for zerg in the pool! Easy 3-base, open nat, easy scouting to the main, ok rush distances, pretty open. Only bad part is the siege-able gold, which isn't entirely game-breaking.
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There are spots- try the cliff between the natural and third, the cliff between the XelNaga and the natural, and the cliff outside the fourth base. Other than that, you'll just have to rely on some map control to spread overlords throughout the map if you want vision.
Which map are you referring to?
I must be the only one who liked Arid Plateau. Nice third base, pretty open in the middle. Hellion harass was difficult, but I was handling it alright with Blade's roach opener. Toss could FFE if they dared, but it was difficult, and rush distance was pretty long.
I liked it. Just use 3 spines on Arid instead of 2.
Also, the zergs that T-down metalopolis blow my mind. That's like, the best map for zerg in the pool! Easy 3-base, open nat, easy scouting to the main, ok rush distances, pretty open. Only bad part is the siege-able gold, which isn't entirely game-breaking.
ZvT on that map is a pain due to gold, but hopefully mule nerf fixed that. I feel it's the only map where a zerg could love it - in ZvP, any map with easy gold vs ffe is broken, and against gateway openings it's still a bit zerg favored due to how open the third is, and how easy it is for zerg to take their third while hard for toss.
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On February 19 2012 08:54 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +One question about Shakuras: why do you think it's a good ZvP map? ZvP-wise, it's always against FFE, and I feel like it's an inverted version of TDA, in that the third is easy to take, but hard to hold. A solid chunk of the time, I lose the third because I'm trying to keep up with FFE econ and underestimate how much he's sending to the third. But if I overmake units to hold off a few zeal/stalker, I end up behind and die to 5gate blink or 7 gate. My only solution thus far is go two-base muta with a macro hatch. Still, even then, it's so easy for P to sneak a pylon near the fourth and warp zealots into the third, or put cannons on the high ground near the minerals of the third. I don't think the third is hard to hold - there is a huge open area right in front of the natural that you should be engaging at, and then there is a choke to it that isn't too small, but can take advantage of spines. So you put a few spines at top of third, and engage him right when he's at bottom of ramp with rest of army. The third isn't impossible to hold, and it also isn't free. The first few zealots or stalkers isn't much, you should always be able to hold it off with a single spine or some lings made when his units are halfway across the map. If you are having trouble with gateway all-ins, make a thread about it. They are pretty hard to deal with, I still have trouble with 7 gate blink all-ins. I still haven't ever seen a pro vod of a zerg holding it when going fast third. You should always be checking to make sure a probe isn't in that fourth and putting in a pylon. Unlike, say, cloud kingdom, ST, or Metal, it's quite hard to sneak a probe on Shakuras, You just make 4 lings at start, send 2 at watch towers, then the other 2 to clear our your third and fourth to make sure no hidden probe. If you watch pro zergs play, they follow a simple anti-probe route on that map and Toss can't ever hide probes. Show nested quote +Don't forget that cloud has a cliff area above the natural, spotting a forge upgrading and 4+ zeals can be a big tell. Where?
Thanks for the specific advice on Shakuras. I'll try some of the suggestions; I definitely feel I should be able to hold, I just haven't managed to do it yet. If it persists, I might make a thread, but I'll also wait until I try some of your advice. Most of my frustration is due to misreads and the difficulty of scouting exactly what P is doing. They have a lot of very viable options; we haven't even touched on 1/2 stargate play, which also seems popular.
I definitely feel like I haven't seen a pro zerg hold anything blink stalker-based in a while.
Regarding Cloud, the cliffs are the doodad-filled things above the 7 o'clock natural and below the 2 o'clock natural. In case that's not specific enough, here's a picture of Cloud with two overlords pasted on:
TL has taught me that all images need an italicized caption.
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high master zerg here, i downvoted entombed valley, shakuras and taldarim cause i fkn hate those maps!
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On February 19 2012 16:46 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +There are spots- try the cliff between the natural and third, the cliff between the XelNaga and the natural, and the cliff outside the fourth base. Other than that, you'll just have to rely on some map control to spread overlords throughout the map if you want vision. Which map are you referring to?
Sounds like Korhal. There's a space on the outside of the natural ("between the natural and third") that's raised, similar to Cloud. Likewise, there're some small raised areas around the map, barely large enough for an overlord to hide atop. I think, anyway, I don't risk leaving overlords on those things, where a single medivac with the army means no more overlord.
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On February 19 2012 11:08 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 07:48 6xFPCs wrote:On February 19 2012 07:01 KimJongChill wrote: A lot of you guys hate on shattered, but I just love that ledge against terran. I've won some games from the scouting potential that ledge gives me haha. Now I don't know about you, but I don't really like cloud, the third feels far away and really out there, where subsequent expansions feel soo far away? I guess there is good possibility for counterattacks. I think entombed is tough to play against turtling t/p players, but for some reason I have a pretty decent win rate on that map. I'm not sure, but something about the map is good for zerg I think. Cloud is nice because it's tough for an FFE protoss to push up to your third, since there's a second ramp you can use to flank, as they are often only prepared to FF the ramp and not expecting a flank. The twin ramps make it so that there's always a way to flank or counter, whether vP or vT, and the two towers are in perfect spots, you'll see them move out almost as soon as they move outside their wall (so you have plenty of time to set up an ambush, you can run in while tanks are unsieged, etc.). Plus, if you put creep tumors on the edge of the main, the creep can spread to the third in three or four tumors. And then your fourth is just down the ramp from your third. Also, against a terran who puts a planetary at their third, it's easy to swing banelings in from the outside (not the ramp, the lateral open space) and into the mineral line. Works wonders. Beware of tanks on the cliff of the main, though. Don't forget that cloud has a cliff area above the natural, spotting a forge upgrading and 4+ zeals can be a big tell. Cloud is my favorite map at the moment. Wow, never looked at it that way, guess I should reconsider playing on it. Heard there's no space shark though >:c
The space shark is really distracting to me, actually. I can see why someone might want to remove it.
I want to add that on Cloud, you have to make sure to engage BEFORE toss gets onto the ramp, otherwise you risk them FFing themselves in on the ramp (takes about 8 FF, I think). If you hit them as they move towards the ramp, their entire rear is open. I prefer to hold the ramp with a handful of roaches and flank with lings; lings are fast, roaches hold their lines better, and those juicy, juicy immortals are generally in the back of the army, while zealots are in front. Then reinforce pure ling: if they warp in non-zealots, they lose them, and if they warp in zealots, it's tough for them to push up the ramp.
Oh, and toss tend to take their third as they push out (this is still talking FFE to 5-6 gate on Cloud), so rallying six morphing lings to the third can result in an uncanceled nexus kill. Gosh, I'm starting to realize why people get so angry at me on ladder.
I think I'm 7-1 on Cloud, with the one loss to a another zerg.
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Most of my frustration is due to misreads and the difficulty of scouting exactly what P is doing. They have a lot of very viable options; we haven't even touched on 1/2 stargate play, which also seems popular.
The most important thing to do when going fast third is sending 1 overlord by their gas, and 2 overlords by their main, ready to sac at 7:00. It's absolutely critical.
From there, you can basically read 99% of what toss is doing based on how many gas he takes, and if his base is empty or full (ie full of gateways). 3 sac'd overlords at the same time should see everything too, though.
No gas at nat, full base, gateway all-in. 3 gas, macro play, usually opens with some sort of tech (ie 1 stargate into 4 gate). 4 gas, double stargate all-in, mass sentry all-in like sentry/immortal, could be a blink all-in if lots of gateways. You get a read by how quick they take their gas (ie all 4 gas at 9:00 doesnt tell you something, but all 4 taken right at 6:00 is a big tell).
Just search posts in zerg help me thread, it's been covered to death. I post this about once every 2 days... ugh.
I definitely feel like I haven't seen a pro zerg hold anything blink stalker-based in a while.
They have, it's just imo the hardest all-in to deal with.
Regarding Cloud, the cliffs are the doodad-filled things above the 7 o'clock natural and below the 2 o'clock natural. In case that's not specific enough, here's a picture of Cloud with two overlords pasted on:
Okay, but here's my more specific question:
On both Korhal and Cloud, where do you send your first 2 overlords? I get where a cool spots to have them, but it's not exactly safe for an overlord floating in the middle of the map in a ZvT. I guess in ZvP and ZvZ it's not an issue, so to be specific, what route should your first and 2nd overlord take on these maps. So you send your first overlord that you spawn with, where and along what route? And the 2nd overlord, where do you send it, after, of course, keeping it by your natural to spot for bunkers at first (this one is hard because then marines are out when you start sending it, so route is important).
Get what I mean?
Sounds like Korhal. There's a space on the outside of the natural ("between the natural and third") that's raised, similar to Cloud. Likewise, there're some small raised areas around the map, barely large enough for an overlord to hide atop. I think, anyway, I don't risk leaving overlords on those things, where a single medivac with the army means no more overlord.
Right but medivacs won't be out for a while. I'm asking where do you send that overlord that you always sac at 5:30, and along what route? It's going to die anyways, I don't care if it dies at 15:00 spotting a drop...
I'm asking where do you send the initial overlord you spawn with, and along what route (like is it safe to go all the way across cloud kingdom to terran natural's cliff? will it get there before mariens can kill it?) and where do you send your 2nd overlord, and along what route.
I just don't know where to send my overlord so I can sac it at 5:30 to see what Terran is up to (did he expand, banshees, is it mass hellion, is he going marauder hellion all-in or banshees after reactor hellion, or is he expanding). I get that you can send an overlord by the natural, but that cliff by the natural is too far from the main, and Terran doesn't lift off to their natural until it's too late for you to go "Oh shit he didnt expand and now he's doing an all-in that will kill me because I assumed he played normal".
I think I'm 7-1 on Cloud, with the one loss to a another zerg.
I've been losing uncharacteristically a lot to terrans on the new maps, because I can't tell if they are 1 basing or not. And turns out they are. Really, really bad terrans too.
As for the other match-ups, been doing okay. Korhal seems pretty well designed so far. I hate how on TDA, the choke at your third is actually larger for the offender, so it's like their's an offensive advantage against the third there. Always have to put preliminary spines there ;/
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First map i vetoed is Entombed Valley - it's just bad for zerg because of some positions and the rocks on the third. Second map Antiga - it has imbalanced positions that are not removed from the ladder version and the gold is there for terran. Third map Shakuras - its incredibly Terran favored.
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Entombed and Shattered. Amazing map pool, don't even need my third veto, though I imagine some zergs using that on shakuras, I actually like that map.
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^ It's nice in zvp/zvz but it's impossible to win in higher level zvt. Doesnt matter how bad early game is, they just mass siege tanks after their double starport or 7 rax all-in failed (or not, just exaggerating here), and then mass ghosts with the split map. No way for zerg to go around a Terran who puts PFs all over the place. I had a game on entombed where someone literally went 2 base rine/tank push, put 2 pfs on the middle by the watch tower. The only way I won it was by going around. you can't do that on shakuras.
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@OP:
Right now, readers can't tell anything about which maps are vetoed the most because the data is split up into three polls. If you want to make this post interesting to readers, give each map's overall veto percentage. (Just add up the percentages for each map across the three polls.)
Just to illustrate: Shattered Temple is vetoed the most at 79%, and Entombed Valley vetoed second most at 75%. That's only 4% behind, but it can seem a lot more due to the way the data is split up.
If you would, I think this would make this thread a lot more valuable and interesting to the community.
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This is so weird, I'm Zerg (diamond) and Shattered Temple is actually the map I have the best winning percentage according to Sc2gears. (63%). It is also the second map I played the most on, so the stats should be somewhat accurate. It is followed by Metalopolis (56%) and Shakuras (52%).
There must be something wrong with my play style, or maps actually don't mean anything in diamond league.
Edit : And on Shattered, I have 71% ZvT, 62% ZvP and 57% ZvZ
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Entombed because the 2nd and 3rd are way too clumped together, terran/toss can have a field day when zerg is stuck in that small space.
Metal is not friendly to late game ZvP army as the main paths are thin and are begging to be stormed/vortexed.
Shattered b/c its old and have played it to death, i'd rather have a higher chance of playing newer maps.
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entombed valley or shattered for sure!
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Antiga because I personally hate the middle. I feel like I can't take advanage of it until Broodlords and I'm also really sick playing on it anyway
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Downvoted Tal'Darim, Entombed, and Korhal.
Reasoning: Tal'Darim was down voted because of the easily abused siege area right outside the natural for the Terran, and in similar ways, the Protoss.
Entombed was down voted because I don't like the progression of the expansions.
Korhal was downvoted because I think hold you're third is hard as hell, especially against Protoss aggression and Stargate play.
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I veoted Taldarim Altar : because of the rock on the third mainly but also because of the choke on the natural (against tanks) Shattered temple : rocks on the third, b2 and b3 free for protoss and terrans, even the b4 is way to easy to defend for them while we have to break 2 or 3 rocks before to be able to expand on the natural b3 and the natural b4.
For the third vetos i'm still not sure, maybe Entombed Valley or maybe Cloud Kingdoms which have way to many chokes. I'm gonna need to try them in ladder to be sure about that.
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yea i hate tda, i think im going to un-veto entombed and veto tda.
I hate not being able to fast third on that map, and being forced to always 2 base muta. Toss can usually push out with his opening with an army that is more favorable to a base trade (i guess the same reasons why it stopped being the popular standard in the first place).
Against terran, besides the ledge, end game is just a nightmare. If you go broodlords he is just way too mobile and base trades and wins, and ling/bane/muta forever is going to die to rine/tank/thor. My games are just ALWAYS base trades on that map. I've had wayyyy too many games on this map where I was dominating all game long, and then it's time for me to take my 6th base and Terran is on 5 with PFs and turrets, and I can never secure a 7th base because either his army outmoves my BL army, or I'm contained by his push with rine/tank if I'm ling/bane/muta. Just hate this map. Too many stupid comebacks where I can't get a 7th base and Terran slowly builds back up an army and wins. Most 'wtf' losses on this map in ZvT, it's not a good map when you starve out on 6 bases and terran just never dies even with only 1 mining base and eventually comes back.
zvz is kind of a pain when everyone just 10 pools or 14/14 ling/bane on the map against hatch first, and you can't reliably drone scout. Then when they do go hatch first, they are just greedy as fuck and you end up behind because the game is just so blind. 14/14 ling bane is still holdable but it's just harder than most maps due to it being so wide open they run lings past, and you have to overmake banes to deal with it (potentially leading you to being behind when they go into macro game).
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On February 19 2012 17:19 Belial88 wrote:
Okay, but here's my more specific question:
On both Korhal and Cloud, where do you send your first 2 overlords? I get where a cool spots to have them, but it's not exactly safe for an overlord floating in the middle of the map in a ZvT. I guess in ZvP and ZvZ it's not an issue, so to be specific, what route should your first and 2nd overlord take on these maps. So you send your first overlord that you spawn with, where and along what route? And the 2nd overlord, where do you send it, after, of course, keeping it by your natural to spot for bunkers at first (this one is hard because then marines are out when you start sending it, so route is important).
Get what I mean?
Ah, I get what you're saying. I've been able to get away with sending my first overlord to that little pillar on Korhal, but that could be just because all the Terrans I've faced are going reactored hellion and aren't trying to overlord hunt early enough to stop it. If I had to guess, I'd say the safest thing is to send your second overlord obliquely across the map to the right/left edge, then sneaking it in at the same time. You're right, it is a big issue; no obvious safe routes to take.
Cloud I hide a second overlord atop the raised area near the third. The towers don't see that far, and if you send it vertically from your natural, it's out of the way of normal base-to-base movement. Again, though, it's a case of no truly safe routes.
For both maps, are you consistently losing overlords and thus being unable to scout? I don't think I've lost an overlord yet myself.
On February 20 2012 21:02 Belial88 wrote: yea i hate tda, i think im going to un-veto entombed and veto tda.
I hate not being able to fast third on that map, and being forced to always 2 base muta. Toss can usually push out with his opening with an army that is more favorable to a base trade (i guess the same reasons why it stopped being the popular standard in the first place).
Against terran, besides the ledge, end game is just a nightmare. If you go broodlords he is just way too mobile and base trades and wins, and ling/bane/muta forever is going to die to rine/tank/thor. My games are just ALWAYS base trades on that map. I've had wayyyy too many games on this map where I was dominating all game long, and then it's time for me to take my 6th base and Terran is on 5 with PFs and turrets, and I can never secure a 7th base because either his army outmoves my BL army, or I'm contained by his push with rine/tank if I'm ling/bane/muta. Just hate this map. Too many stupid comebacks where I can't get a 7th base and Terran slowly builds back up an army and wins. Most 'wtf' losses on this map in ZvT, it's not a good map when you starve out on 6 bases and terran just never dies even with only 1 mining base and eventually comes back.
zvz is kind of a pain when everyone just 10 pools or 14/14 ling/bane on the map against hatch first, and you can't reliably drone scout. Then when they do go hatch first, they are just greedy as fuck and you end up behind because the game is just so blind. 14/14 ling bane is still holdable but it's just harder than most maps due to it being so wide open they run lings past, and you have to overmake banes to deal with it (potentially leading you to being behind when they go into macro game).
Gotta mention that I had a ZvT on Cloud today that felt like TDA, except that by taking the middle-ish two bases bases (low ground ones), I could still respond quickly enough with a BL-infestor army, because holding the center keeps you close to so many of the other bases you would want to attack. 49 minutes of slowly sieging my way through the Terran's PFs and turrets. The Terran easily takes the edge expansions for third and fourth, but by holding the center two, you can attack the third or fourth pretty much from atop one of the center bases. Just need to spine/spore up the ledge above the one on your side of the map to give yourself a response time buffer.
I actually go 13p/12g bling for ZvZ on TDA, though don't know how good an idea it is. In my experience, it easily stops 10pools (and 6pools), and pretty much cleaves through 15hatch at my level (diamond). Generally even with 14/14. So, a nice middle-of-the-road deal. I veto TDA now, too, though.
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Cloud Kingdom is a nightmare in ZvP, everything is a narrow choke, defending your bases with spines is a pain, and your first selection for a 4th can be badly abused from high ground. Plus if the protoss goes 1 or 2 stargate the horras is stupid hard to deal with because of the distance between the nat and 3rd. In ZvZ and ZvT it seems... okaaaay, but ZvP seems an insta loss almost.
The narrow chokeways make it a terrible map from my experience, but more time will tell I guess. Interested in seeing what other people have experienced with the map.
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Just entombed valley for me, maaaaybe shakuras because I hate that tank shenanigans but it would be worth learning to deal with it.
Shattered Temple I actually like because it is easy to get surrounds in the middle of the map because of the very large open space.
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Been considering this quite alot. Entombed because of close spawn, weird 3rd, tough to pressure turtle P and awkward ling runby attack paths. TDA because no ramp zvz. Cloud at the moment because of the ramps and chokes everywhere, especially around either 3rd. I have some issues with Korhal because of the nat 3rd but until I learn how to play on Cloud better, the wide open middle on Korhal is nice.
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Some advice for zergs complaining about Cloud -> Treat the chokes as an advantage. Most of my ZvPs devolve into allin-defense vs allin, and Protoss have a hard time forcing their way up into my 3rd due to the nature of the map and the tendency for Protoss to ball up their units.
When engaging their 3rd, you have to attack up the ramp and through the wide side-path at the same time.
The natural is and will always remain a pain, though, collossus cliff-walking can prolong a dead Protoss and give reason to hope for a second chance.
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1. Shattered 2. Temple 3. Shattered Temple
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On February 22 2012 13:49 ThomasHobbes wrote: Some advice for zergs complaining about Cloud -> Treat the chokes as an advantage. Most of my ZvPs devolve into allin-defense vs allin, and Protoss have a hard time forcing their way up into my 3rd due to the nature of the map and the tendency for Protoss to ball up their units.
When engaging their 3rd, you have to attack up the ramp and through the wide side-path at the same time.
The natural is and will always remain a pain, though, collossus cliff-walking can prolong a dead Protoss and give reason to hope for a second chance.
Just finished a ZvP on Cloud where colossus cliff-straddling became a problem once I broke through the wall. I found that either splitting 70-30 high ground-low ground (since you have reinforcements streaming in, yeah?) works to kill them. Or, if you feel like you don't have enough to engage, split 50-50 to the two mineral lines.
Every Protoss I've played on Cloud thus far places a pylon at the middle-top or middle-bottom of the map to warp in units against your third. This is the fifth time, I have yet to catch that probe coming out; replays show that they sneak it out rather early, or even move their natural-denying probe there and let it idle until their warpgates are up.
The advice about going through the side path to get to their third is golden, thanks for mentioning that. Haven't tried yet, but I'm willing to bet that moving 100% through the side may be the way to go. Remember, reinforcements can come in from the other ramp (nearer their natural), too, to get a surround on the stalkers, in spite of a gateway wall at the ramp of the third.
Don't forget to take your fourth the moment you make your way into the third.
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ZvP on Korhal, anyone found a reliable way to assault the toss FFE wall? It looks so vulnerable to me because of the wide space in front of it, allowing easy attacks on the forge especially. Next game, I may just go proxy a third hatch around the corner from the natural (behind the tree-filled cliff) and put down three spines to see how it goes. That and ling runbys around the back of the mineral line look... well, possible, but not easy.
I really feel like there's a way to reliably damage an FFE here, but no one's tried it because we're all busy defending our far-away third. Which looks very blink stalker-vulnerable, I should add.
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Entombed is the only one I'll have vetoed all season. Horrible map if its ZvP and toss is in close positions. Easy path to your main and an easy 3rd. Its near impossible to break.
ATM I also have Shakuras and Metal but thats just because I've lost a few in a row on those two and don't want to play them for the next week or so lol
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Gotta veto maps like shattered because there are no more non-zerg maps left. For every map that isn't that big, it has a billion different attack paths.
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There is probably a reason why in the GSL Antiga is only cross-spawn. Also I dislike the gold, even with the mule-change, a terran can fortify it a lot easier than the other races.
I'm not 100% sure yet about Entombed. I like it but I wish they would remove horizontal spawns.
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I've got entombed veto'd because I don't know the map and I don't feel like learning a new one.
Other than that, all the maps are fine so far.
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for me it's certainly shakuras and then shattered
not so sure about the 3rd one
either taldarim or antiga not sure about what i should veto so i actually vetoed none of them since i think it's not too bad
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On February 15 2012 19:20 jjhchsc2 wrote: cloud kingdom seems to have too many chokes/uphills tbh.
How can you ever win a ZvP on this map, so many chokes its not even funny? Im surprised so few veto this map, and so many veto Entombed valley. High master zerg here, I dont know how this poll represents skill level, could be an explanation as I see not logic in it.
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I've currently vetoed Entombed (close positions feels a bit silly, plus good third for P/T), Shattered (kinda close spawns, and hard to take a quick third in response to fast expansions from T and P), TDA (same as Shattered, and also the siege abuse of the natural). I like the other maps quite a bit.
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On February 19 2012 21:25 RobiTL wrote: This is so weird, I'm Zerg (diamond) and Shattered Temple is actually the map I have the best winning percentage according to Sc2gears. (63%). It is also the second map I played the most on, so the stats should be somewhat accurate. It is followed by Metalopolis (56%) and Shakuras (52%).
There must be something wrong with my play style, or maps actually don't mean anything in diamond league.
Edit : And on Shattered, I have 71% ZvT, 62% ZvP and 57% ZvZ Woooaaa I have exactly the same feeling (and about the same stats). I have the best percentage on Shattered Temple too :D I'm also in diamond league. I guess it doesn't really matters at our level.
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On February 22 2012 22:34 Lasbike wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 21:25 RobiTL wrote: This is so weird, I'm Zerg (diamond) and Shattered Temple is actually the map I have the best winning percentage according to Sc2gears. (63%). It is also the second map I played the most on, so the stats should be somewhat accurate. It is followed by Metalopolis (56%) and Shakuras (52%).
There must be something wrong with my play style, or maps actually don't mean anything in diamond league.
Edit : And on Shattered, I have 71% ZvT, 62% ZvP and 57% ZvZ Woooaaa I have exactly the same feeling (and about the same stats). I have the best percentage on Shattered Temple too :D I'm also in diamond league. I guess it doesn't really matters at our level. Depends on your playstyle. If you don't get thirds early, it won't matter that the map denies it.
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1. Korhal Compound - because Terran can hit the 3rd on high ground. 2. Entombed Valley - Protoss can take 3 safely, spawn positions. 3. Shattered Temple - Again 3rd base. Terran PF, tank positions. Protoss 3rd to easy to take safely.
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On February 22 2012 22:00 itsNifty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 19:20 jjhchsc2 wrote: cloud kingdom seems to have too many chokes/uphills tbh.
How can you ever win a ZvP on this map, so many chokes its not even funny? Im surprised so few veto this map, and so many veto Entombed valley. High master zerg here, I dont know how this poll represents skill level, could be an explanation as I see not logic in it.
I agree 110% I'm only low masters but I have only won maybe 1 ZvP on this map out of 10+, its a terrible ZvP map if you play a protoss that knows what he is doing. The chokes are a nightmare, there is a million places where collo can be abusive and defense for there base is pretty easy.
I have veto'ed this map strickly because of ZvP, the other match ups are meh, and can be delt with on this map.
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Can't believe nobody vetoes CK... the map is big but it's chokes everywhere...
Cloud Kingdom Shattered Temple Tal'Darim Altar
I think Entombed is not too bad compared to these; at least the third is pretty easy to reach.
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On February 23 2012 04:56 synapse wrote: Can't believe nobody vetoes CK... the map is big but it's chokes everywhere...
Cloud Kingdom Shattered Temple Tal'Darim Altar
I think Entombed is not too bad compared to these; at least the third is pretty easy to reach. My biggest concern in ZvP is how easy it is to defend 2 base all-ins and how easy it is for Protoss to turtle on a quick 3rd base if he wants. Cloud Kingdom's 3rd base is WAY harder to turtle on for Protoss than Entombed Valley. There are 2 attack paths and it's way further from the natural. Sure, there are plenty of chokes around the map on Cloud Kingdom, but I'll still take it any day over Entombed Valley (which is also hard when you get close spawns, the rush distance is actually not that large).
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On February 23 2012 05:01 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2012 04:56 synapse wrote: Can't believe nobody vetoes CK... the map is big but it's chokes everywhere...
Cloud Kingdom Shattered Temple Tal'Darim Altar
I think Entombed is not too bad compared to these; at least the third is pretty easy to reach. My biggest concern in ZvP is how easy it is to defend 2 base all-ins and how easy it is for Protoss to turtle on a quick 3rd base if he wants. Cloud Kingdom's 3rd base is WAY harder to turtle on for Protoss than Entombed Valley. There are 2 attack paths and it's way further from the natural. Sure, there are plenty of chokes around the map on Cloud Kingdom, but I'll still take it any day over Entombed Valley (which is also hard when you get close spawns, the rush distance is actually not that large). I TOTALLY disagree. The ramp that leads directly into the natural is impossibly small, so P really only needs to camp the third and fourth base. A quick 4-base protoss push against a pre-BL zerg is certain death.
EV is obviously not a great map for Z but I think CK is much worse.
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On February 22 2012 22:00 itsNifty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 19:20 jjhchsc2 wrote: cloud kingdom seems to have too many chokes/uphills tbh.
How can you ever win a ZvP on this map, so many chokes its not even funny? Im surprised so few veto this map
Because cloud kingdom is such a good mutalisk map. Once you have map control you can have a base in three out of four corners of a very big map, four if you take the protoss' main, nat or third after the base-trade. there is no way protoss can walk around the map with his slow army killing every base faster than you can mine more money and throw down more hatcheries.
Pheonix buff may have changed this, though.
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actually i only have shattered vetod, there are liek 4-5 other maps which are equally hard but doable, so i just play them
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On February 22 2012 16:12 Drmooose wrote: Entombed is the only one I'll have vetoed all season. Horrible map if its ZvP and toss is in close positions. Easy path to your main and an easy 3rd. Its near impossible to break.
ATM I also have Shakuras and Metal but thats just because I've lost a few in a row on those two and don't want to play them for the next week or so lol That's true, but cross spawns lend well to 3 hatch muta and base trading. It's basically impossible to kill their 3rd, but you don't necessarily have to. The location of all 3 mineral lines also makes mutas really strong as you can just go from base to base killing stuff, even if they have blink.
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Shakuras vs Tanks is a bitch Shattered vs Protoss due to no good fast third location Antiga vs Terran as well, due to no good 4th base and how bad this map is for mutas
but I'm not vetoing any of those, I think it is important to be able to improvise some stuff, and "bad" scenarios train this (as long as they are not too bad)
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Shattered, Entombed, and Shakuras.
I'm not in love with Tal'Darim either, but zvt late game is incredibly imbalanced on shakuras.
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is it me or does the map pool get worse for zerg every season?
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On February 24 2012 09:56 Dbla08 wrote: is it me or does the map pool get worse for zerg every season? Is that serious? State which maps you would rather play on that were removed.
Steppes of War, Xel'Naga Caverns, Lost Temple, Kulas Ravine, Jungle Basin, Delta Quadrant, close spawns on 4 player maps, etc.
This seems to be the best map pool for zerg that has ever been out and each season has had improvements that favored zerg.
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Downvote shattered for sure. Entombed Valley is kind of annoying to play on.
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On February 24 2012 09:56 Dbla08 wrote: is it me or does the map pool get worse for zerg every season?
I feel it's better, atleast for me. Previously I had to veto maps like XNC etc that were pretty much "auto-veto" for zerg which left us with less veto's to use for maps that we just didn't like personally. Now this season I am keeping both the new maps, I am not quite sure I love them (lots of chokes on cloud kingdom, but also lots of options for zergling counters, 3rd being siegable on korhal is bad in theory but hasn't happened to me yet) but my winratio on them is very good thus far.
I veto Shattered (obvious reasons), Entombed (because I had almost no success at all in ZvP on that map) and TDA (personal pref between that and Shakuras, might switch around since shakura is the only map I have under 50% on so far this season, every other map is 65%+. I seem to get a lot of 6pools against me on that map for some reason and I suck at defending those )
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How do you guys play TDA in ZvP?
I switched my veto from entombed to TDA and was quickly reminded of close spawn ZvT... but I just goddamn hate TDA. Not to mention the 14/14 ling/bane all-ins every game, but I can't figure out ZvP on that map.
If you go fast third you just autolose basically to any mass gateway blink, which is what is pretty popular due to mutas and hey mass gate blink all-ins are common in masters. I've been going 2 base muta in TDA, but I don't have too much experience with it. I've won some, I've lost some... not sure how to really play it out.
Get lair at like 40? When i try to rush it I just have no econ and die. I don't really know how to follow it up either. You just go mass mutas and force a base trade? And unlike 3 base mutas since you forever deny 3rd it will always be a base trade? Do you even bother getting roaches? do you get mass spines, or mass lings for the base trade?
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TL really needs to add multiple-answer polls :\
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veto'd shakuras, TDA and shattered
the poll is very awkward and the results are skewed, for one why does it matter what order you veto'd the maps? I chose shakuras as #1 and shattered #3 even though the poll is favoring shattered as the #1. just doesn't make sense why the veto order would matter and thus I ruined your flawed poll.
anyways my reasoning
shakuras is awful. It's very easy to get drop/WP harassed, seems almost standard because T/P can easily turtle on 2 base and do whatever they want. Plus this map in TvZ either goes to a 2 rax bunker cheese early game or a very turtley mech game which are both awful to deal with, not to mention the siege tank abuse at your main from the cliff. P's always seem to do the same thing, some 2 base all-in with 2-3 immortals.
TDA I hate because it's really too big. I don't think zerg benefits from big maps as everyone thinks, yeah you have more time to react but you also must scout more since there are plenty of places to hide things. The natural is terrible in ZvT, siege-able and nearly unbreakable at certain points in the game. The 3rd isn't particularly fun to take either and is a pain in ZvP since you must take your 3rd rather far. ZvZ is also awful on this map.
Shattered is out just because it's the smallest 4 player map and securing a 3rd is a pain.
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On February 24 2012 17:32 emc wrote:the poll is very awkward and the results are skewed, for one why does it matter what order you veto'd the maps? I chose shakuras as #1 and shattered #3 even though the poll is favoring shattered as the #1. just doesn't make sense why the veto order would matter and thus I ruined your flawed poll.
We can't make a "multiple answers poll" It is true the notion of "order" is pretty useless, but i had no other choice than make 3 polls.
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after playing Korhal since its release i have decided to check it off. mass muta is impossible since there is no dead space and blink stalkers chew them up. and attacking a Protoss third is near impossible when they wall off one side with cannons and you are backed into an awkward corner if their army comes from the high ground.
holding a third is hard as #$#* against stargate and siege tank play as well. ( although you can burrow units on the high ground to sneak attack tanks)
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So far I'm really feeling like cloud kingdom is a bad map for zerg. Am I doing something wrong on it or are other zergs getting that feeling too?
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Korhal is so choky, ZvP is impossible on it. The only open space for engagements is low ground.
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On February 25 2012 02:34 hunts wrote: So far I'm really feeling like cloud kingdom is a bad map for zerg. Am I doing something wrong on it or are other zergs getting that feeling too?
you should watch the apollo videos that were linked on the b.net website. His opinion is that the map is very susceptible to runbys which is very good for zerg because there are a ton of different pathways and it's very hard for T/P to split their army and defend 3-4 different chokes. As the map goes on and the T/P need more bases, the runbys become even easier and there happen to be expansions in the corners of the map which are great for dividing your opponents attention in which base to kill.
I admit the 3rd of CK and KC aren't the best but if you spread your creep as apollo mentions then it's pretty easy. KC for instance you want to spread your creep above and around your 3rd rather than just connecting your natural to 3rd. Just remember that these maps aren't very favorable to mutas but are great for ground armies.
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On February 25 2012 02:45 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 02:34 hunts wrote: So far I'm really feeling like cloud kingdom is a bad map for zerg. Am I doing something wrong on it or are other zergs getting that feeling too? you should watch the apollo videos that were linked on the b.net website. His opinion is that the map is very susceptible to runbys which is very good for zerg because there are a ton of different pathways and it's very hard for T/P to split their army and defend 3-4 different chokes. As the map goes on and the T/P need more bases, the runbys become even easier and there happen to be expansions in the corners of the map which are great for dividing your opponents attention in which base to kill. I admit the 3rd of CK and KC aren't the best but if you spread your creep as apollo mentions then it's pretty easy. KC for instance you want to spread your creep above and around your 3rd rather than just connecting your natural to 3rd. Just remember that these maps aren't very favorable to mutas but are great for ground armies.
I know there are lots of paths for runbys. The big issue I've been having is T can still just place some turrets and maybe a bunker/leave some marines and a tank or so and use PFs for the later expos, and P can just make canons and the expos become almost impossible to do any damage to with a runby unless you commit your whole army.
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i voted just shattered. its kinda annying because u cant take a 3rd.
i think the others are ok, entombed may not be the best map for zerg, but its ok^^
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I find that maps are tough to design appropriately. The third base always seems to be a problem for zerg (i'm zerg so maybe biased). If the 3rd base is easy, then it remains easy for terran and protoss. If it's difficult, it's difficult for zerg and a disconnected 3rd is very hard to hold. By putting rocks at the 3rd on any map, it's directly cutting into the zerg's ability to make drones. By having to make units to destroy the rocks, you're sac'ing econ, for the sake of a hatchery (econ/production). Meanwhile, terran and protoss econ + army rise steadily thus always giving them a means to destroying rocks. I'm not sure what the best solution for this is, or if it's an inherent flaw in the design of the game. What do you think?
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i think the others are ok, entombed may not be the best map for zerg, but its ok^^
Are you seriously okay with close spawn ZvT on entombed?
Or siege tanks hitting your main from third/third from main on Antiga? Not to mention another close spawn map?
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Vetod Entombed Valley because horizontal spawns are nothing but a bad joke, no sane person can argue against this IMO. Also vetod Taldarim because of the rocks at the third and tank pushes to the natural.
Antiga is also annoying to play on oftentimes since non-cross positions almost always play a significant role during a match. However it's not as bad as with Entombed Valley. I'm also starting to dislike Korhal, mainly because it is almost impossible to get a fifth base running.
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