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Sorry for the weird title, it's pretty hard to make it clear with only 50 characters :D
I want to create a discussion around 2 standards openings in ZvP against FFE : - 11 pool 18 hatch - 15 pool 16 hatch
Against an FFE, you want to take a fast third. But the "fast third" is not the same, depending of your opening.
With a 15p/16h, you must take your third at 4:00. With a 11p/18h, you must take your third at 6:00.
If you want to take a third at 4:00 with a 11/18, you will cut your drones productions and you'll feel a little "weird". It's not very natural.
I made 2 tests with theses openings. I'll just follow this :
- Make 4 zerglings - Take an "optimal" third (4:00 for 15/16, 6:00 for 11/18) - Take 2 gas at 6:00 - Take 1 gas at 7:00 - Start lair with 100 gas (+ put a roach warren, + put an evo chamber) - Start zergling speedling with 100 gas - 8:30 = end of the test
11 pool 18 hatch
* 6:00 - The third begin - 30 drones
* 7:00 - 47 drones - Third not completed yet
* 8:30 - 70 drones - Lair completed - Third completed - 3 queens - 900 mineral, 450 gas + many larvaes (i didn't start an upgrade with the evo chamber)
15 pool 16 hatch
* 6:00 - Third is nearly complete - 28 drones
* 7:00 - 42 drones - 3 queens
* 8:30 - 70 drones - Lair completed - Third completed - 3 queens - 900 mineral, 450 gas + many larvaes (i didn't start an upgrade with the evo chamber)
I tested also the 11p/18h with a third at 4:15
11 pool 18 hatch (third at 4:15)
* 6:00 - 25 drones - Third nearly completed
* 7:00 - 38 drones - Too much larvaes, you can't use them
* 8:30 - 66 drones - 300 minerals and 450 gas - No larvaes
As you can see, if you take your third at 6:00, 11p/18h is exactly the same as the 15p/16h around 7:00.
But theorycrafting is not the only thing in this game. We must check other things like : - 11p/18h is pretty better against an early cheese (canon rush & 2 gates) - With a 15p/16h, you can drone scout and go hatch first against a "one base" protoss (or 14g/14p) - With a 11p/18h, the third is complete around 7:40. So it's harder to defends it against an early pressure (like a zealot rush). But against a zealot rush, you can just cancel it (instead of just lose it). Against a double stargate after an FFE, you got the time to put somes spores crawler.
So i want to discuss with you : I use the 11p/18h in every ZvP. I feel it's pretty good against a "one base" protoss and it's competitive against an FFE style (even with a "fast third").
But, pros players don't use this opening. Even on Tal'darim (with rocks on the third). They use 15p/16h (or 14/16, or 15/18, etc ...).
Why ?
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I think they use it sometimes, but I've always thought for the longest time that this build is underused.
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I see pros players use this opening on the ladder (on their livestream). But in tournaments, they don't use it. I wonder why.
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With my testing I swear I had more than 28 drones at 6:00, do you mind specifying your exact build including lings made for both test scenarios up to 6:00?
As in: 15 pool, 16 hatch, 15 overlord, 15 queen, 17 ling, 18 ling, 3 drones, 22 queen, 24 overlord, 24 hatch @third, etc. Or replays?
Replays in particular would be awesome, seeing how you work out the drone transfers (or not) in both scenarios.
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Are you making 4 lings when the pool finishes in both cases? I'm curious how that affects the economy, specifically as 11p/18h only gets any advantage if it makes those early lings, but it also is required to hit very tight drone timings to keep up with 15p/15h. The hatchery getting blocked is one of the main reasons for trying 11p/18h, but as DRG showed it is easy to just run a drone to the third base location instead and the 15h after pool is still essentially guaranteed (though possibly vulnerable to cannon rushes as the distance for your workers to defend it is longer).
Personally I like going 11p/18h simply to scout and deny hidden probes around the map early on, as well as try to force players to go forge and cannon before nexus and gate (though if you only make 2-4 lings that isn't likely necessary, they don't always know if you will make 6 or do a full on all-in with drones etc). It's also quite possible to deny all knowledge of an expansion or gas timings in some cases, which can really throw off a protoss and may make them play overly defensive.
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On March 07 2012 18:07 aebriol wrote: With my testing I swear I had more than 28 drones at 6:00, do you mind specifying your exact build including lings made for both test scenarios up to 6:00?
As in: 15 pool, 16 hatch, 15 overlord, 15 queen, 17 ling, 18 ling, 3 drones, 22 queen, 24 overlord, 24 hatch @third, etc. Or replays?
Replays in particular would be awesome, seeing how you work out the drone transfers (or not) in both scenarios.
Well maybe i'm not very good with the 15p/16h and i should got more drones at 6:00 ^^ But i don't think i can have more drones at 8:30.
I'll try to put the 3 replays as soon as i can ( = when i'm at home ^^ )
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I think the main thing is number of larva. The real thing that differs is the fact that you get an extra spawn larva with an earlier hatch. By experience, i have a lot of trouble defending 8:30 pushes with 11/18, if I dont over prepare early. Im thinkin in particular the zealot void push. You wont have any spores up in time at your third. Also, i find that 7 gate blink +2 is harder to hold, but that could just be that the 15 pool build is more my style.
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On March 07 2012 18:16 oOOoOphidian wrote: Are you making 4 lings when the pool finishes in both cases? I'm curious how that affects the economy, specifically as 11p/18h only gets any advantage if it makes those early lings, but it also is required to hit very tight drone timings to keep up with 15p/15h. The hatchery getting blocked is one of the main reasons for trying 11p/18h, but as DRG showed it is easy to just run a drone to the third base location instead and the 15h after pool is still essentially guaranteed (though possibly vulnerable to cannon rushes as the distance for your workers to defend it is longer).
Personally I like going 11p/18h simply to scout and deny hidden probes around the map early on, as well as try to force players to go forge and cannon before nexus and gate (though if you only make 2-4 lings that isn't likely necessary, they don't always know if you will make 6 or do a full on all-in with drones etc). It's also quite possible to deny all knowledge of an expansion or gas timings in some cases, which can really throw off a protoss and may make them play overly defensive.
Oh yes i forgot, i made 4 zerglings each times.
And yes with a 15p/16h you can just take your third if the protoss is trying to block your natural.
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i think testing this with a pylon block at the natural would be most interesting. it´s more or less standard to face these pylon blocks imo. i could imagine that 11p 18h is even stronger there. on the other hand side a 15p 16h player can place the hatchery at the 3rd instead, that´s ok too. and it would be interesting to know what´s the better build for early ling speed (gas after hatch),i would guess 15p 16h is better here.
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But theorycrafting is not the only thing in this game. We must check other things like : - 11p/18h is pretty better against an early cheese (canon rush & 2 gates) - With a 15p/16h, you can drone scout and go hatch first against a "one base" protoss (or 14g/14p) - With a 11p/18h, the third is complete around 7:40. So it's harder to defends it against an early pressure (like a zealot rush). But against a zealot rush, you can just cancel it (instead of just lose it). Against a double stargate after an FFE, you got the time to put somes spores crawler.
15p and 11p will both beat 2 gate just fine, even if proxied... Also, a cannon rush will win against an 11pool if you don't pull drones just the same as 15 pool, as lings will never come out in time.
You can drone scout either way against Toss. Yes, as a percentage, I understand what you are driving at, but either way it's still just 50 minerals lost, and 1 drone. Not a big deal.
Someone has tested this stuff before, and basically, the 'order' of how builds stack up economically, will remain the same if you do the same thing, ie drone scout at same time, take gas at same time, et cetera.
Also, double stargate will hit wayyy after third is complete no matter what build you do, or when you take third.
I used to 11p/18h every game in ZvP. It's a horrible build. I did it for a year until I realized how bad it was. The only merit in 11p is that it's 'better' if you remain on 1 base, because you have more larva, and less minerals, but on 1 base, you'll have enough econ for the larva production. But, with 14 pool, or 15 pool, or whatever, you build up excess minerals, that you can't spend.
Unless you were planning to spend that excess minerals on something other than larva, like a hatchery.
And that's why 14 pool is way better than 11pool. I'm not sure about 15p vs 14p. Also, I dislike your tests. Your third timing is so, damn, arbitrary. It would be better if you did a test where you took the third at some exact same time each time, like you took it at 4:00 (or whatever it is). Or maybe if you took it at 30 supply each time (ensuring same drone count). Maybe just try both those methods, see how they both compare.
Also, some more things:
1. Leave out the gas timings. People have already proven that, if you are comparing two builds, as long as you drone scout, or take gas, or whatever, at identical times in both builds, the relative order will stay the same. So the rankings of say, 6 pool, 8 pool, 10 pool, 14 pool, is still the exact same and by the same margin, if you do those same builds, but with gas taken at 1:00. You make it more complicated, what you just need to prove is which is better build.
2. No lair...
3. No evo chamber...
4. No speed...
5. End the test at 9:00, it will be more stable to then.
6. You need to have very, very specific overlord timings, and do it exactly the same in each game, and time them perfectly. As in super, super fucking perfect.
7. What map you choose is extremely relevant. I recommend you create a custom map with a single base, and 3 mineral fields in 3 different directions to it, and the 3 hatches 'stacked', or just super close. Maps make a huge difference in this.
8. You need to have a process for maynarding workers, because that's a BIG fucking deal. You need to perfectly split untis up. So you need to figure out, with perfect worker production and overlord production, how many drones you have, and where to send the drones. The other guy actually figured out how many drones to send where each time. Maynarding drones costs mining time, and if you don't maynard evenly, the results get skewed because 14+14+14 is like 20% more income than 21+21, even though it's same number of workers.
I really like what you are trying to do, but: 1. Someone has done this before, and better (not to say someone shouldnt make an update) 2. Your testing is all fucked up (at the very least, thirds at complete different timings, and taking gas????)
Just don't like the test method. Why don't you just do a test that tests which is better for 2 base. Then, do a separate test, on what time is best to take a third (because nothing definitive has been done on that).
Also, the things you say about 11/18 being better, is totally irrelelvant. I thought you were trying to test which is better economically. Why are you even mentioning stuff like cannon rushes and such? It almost seems like you are biased and just trying to tell everyone "hey, I think 11/18 is the best build in the world, why isn't everyone doing it, they are wrong, and here is some arbitrary test I did".
And, as I said, 11/18 is completely irrelevant to all the stuff you said anyways. A cannon rush from 13 forge at 17 supply, either 3 pylon ramp block or 2 pylon behind minerals, will kill you and win, if you wait on lings, and react any differently than if you went 15 pool. The lings will never be out in time to stop it (they only shorten the timing that the cannon rush can happen, but as soon as Toss throws 3 pylons to block ramp, or 2 pylons to block behind minerals, you lose). Same goes for proxy 2 gate, you can even hold that hatch first, as long as you respond appropriately (im pretty sure hatch first can beat proxy 9/9, not 100% sure on that, def. can beat like 11/13 or 11/12 proxy, you just cancel hatch, make 2 spines, make lings, and you still end up ahead because its so all in).
Yea your testing is just so goofy. Lings, gas timings, maynarding?, no replays, overlord timings?, map?, lair, speed, evo? wtf. If you want to compare the economics of 2 builds, just go pure drones and necessary queens. If you make 4 lings after pool, or gas, at same time in each build, it will still stack up roughly the same. It's not like 15/15 is better than 14/15 if you make 4 lings, but if you dont make 4 lings 15/15 is better, or gas, or whatever. That's just ridiculous. Everything about your testing method is suspicious, and goes against what other people have tested saying that 11/18 is a horrible build, and banks zero money for your expo (unless you make idle larva, which you do during 11/18), and that 14p is way better.
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Btw that very early lair is not necessary IMO, id upgrade first if I were you. Also i find that if I go quick 3rd gas at 7:00 I will die to loads of stuff. Watch out if thats your go-to build.
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What about the 12pool variant ?
Nestea popularized this opening a while back, I personnaly use it a lot, for the above stated reasons regarding the choice of 11p; earlier Ling to deny any hardcore proxy cheese, and early hatch for a pool build.
Link to the 12p build
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^ earlier pool/ling does NOT deny any cheese.
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The only thing earlier pool does is deny nexus first on certain maps. Because really, Toss can always go nexus first vs 14 or 15p, except certain maps like metal
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Also, I dislike your tests. Your third timing is so, damn, arbitrary. It would be better if you did a test where you took the third at some exact same time each time, like you took it at 4:00 (or whatever it is). Or maybe if you took it at 30 supply each time (ensuring same drone count). Maybe just try both those methods, see how they both compare.
I tried to take a third at 4:00 with a 11p/18h. It's very bad. You must delay the second queen or delay the third. In all case you must cut the drone production.
4:00 and 6:00 are not "arbitraty". If you spend all your larvaes, you'll have a 300 minerals excess. So you can take your third. Somes players use the 11p/18h to make double evo + 4 gas at 6:00 (instead of a third).
1. Leave out the gas timings. People have already proven that, if you are comparing two builds, as long as you drone scout, or take gas, or whatever, at identical times in both builds, the relative order will stay the same. So the rankings of say, 6 pool, 8 pool, 10 pool, 14 pool, is still the exact same and by the same margin, if you do those same builds, but with gas taken at 1:00. You make it more complicated, what you just need to prove is which is better build.
I just tried to test it as a "proper response to FFE". If i full drone (without gas), the 11p/18h will be behind. Because you'll reach 32 drones befores the third is complete (so more than 2 drones by mineral patch). And your income will not be optimal. With the gas, you reach 32 drones before the third is complete but it's later.
If you do only drones, you'll have way more minerals with the 15p/16h at 8:30. But if you take gas, you'll have the same ressources. Because of the bases saturation.
2. No lair...
3. No evo chamber...
4. No speed...
i agree with that, but i don't think it'll change something. Because in both opening, i can't have more larvae. So it'll only change resources at the end.
5. End the test at 9:00, it will be more stable to then.
Why ? Around 7:30, opening are at the same point. There's no reason it'll be different at 9:00 :s And against an FFE, a zerg should stop drones around 8:30 (depends of the protoss choices).
6. You need to have very, very specific overlord timings, and do it exactly the same in each game, and time them perfectly. As in super, super fucking perfect.
Well, i'm not a super perfect player as i'm only low master. But i think i can drone without supply blocking me ^^ But i see what you mean. If we want a super perfect thing, we should try it in evolution chamber program.
7. What map you choose is extremely relevant. I recommend you create a custom map with a single base, and 3 mineral fields in 3 different directions to it, and the 3 hatches 'stacked', or just super close. Maps make a huge difference in this.
All tests are on Shakuras Plateau.
8. You need to have a process for maynarding workers, because that's a BIG fucking deal. You need to perfectly split untis up. So you need to figure out, with perfect worker production and overlord production, how many drones you have, and where to send the drones. The other guy actually figured out how many drones to send where each time. Maynarding drones costs mining time, and if you don't maynard evenly, the results get skewed because 14+14+14 is like 20% more income than 21+21, even though it's same number of workers.
Same response as 6. I'll try in evolution chamber ^^
Also, the things you say about 11/18 being better, is totally irrelelvant. I thought you were trying to test which is better economically. Why are you even mentioning stuff like cannon rushes and such? It almost seems like you are biased and just trying to tell everyone "hey, I think 11/18 is the best build in the world, why isn't everyone doing it, they are wrong, and here is some arbitrary test I did".
I am biased. Because i use 11p/18h all the time so i feel better with this one. It's normal. I created this topic to have "counter arguments" on that.
I don't want to just say "hey 11p/18h is better, no matter what". I want to start a discussion on this and i want arguments for the 15p/16h (or 15/15, or 15/18, or whatever).
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On March 07 2012 18:58 Magus.421 wrote: I am biased. Because i use 11p/18h all the time so i feel better with this one. It's normal. I created this topic to have "counter arguments" on that.
I don't want to just say "hey 11p/18h is better, no matter what". I want to start a discussion on this and i want arguments for the 15p/16h (or 15/15, or 15/18, or whatever). With 15p 16 hatch 24 pool, you will have 1 or 2 creep tumors out (depending on how you do the build) without sacrificing economy much it seems.
Do you have any spare creep when you do 11 / 18?
Anyway, I would love to see the replay when you get home, then I'll try to do add in a test of my own doing what I am biased for (10 drone scout,15p 16h 24h after overlord).
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On March 07 2012 19:05 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 18:58 Magus.421 wrote: I am biased. Because i use 11p/18h all the time so i feel better with this one. It's normal. I created this topic to have "counter arguments" on that.
I don't want to just say "hey 11p/18h is better, no matter what". I want to start a discussion on this and i want arguments for the 15p/16h (or 15/15, or 15/18, or whatever). With 15p 16 hatch 24 pool, you will have 1 or 2 creep tumors out (depending on how you do the build) without sacrificing economy much it seems. Do you have any spare creep when you do 11 / 18? Anyway, I would love to see the replay when you get home, then I'll try to do add in a test of my own doing what I am biased for (10 drone scout,15p 16h 24h after overlord).
With 11/18 you got one tumor (with a third at 6:00). If you want to take your third at 4:00, you can have two tumors.
But in both openings, you can make an extra queens for creep spread if you want.
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noob question, why not hatch first?
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4:00 and 6:00 are not "arbitraty". If you spend all your larvaes, you'll have a 300 minerals excess. So you can take your third. Somes players use the 11p/18h to make double evo + 4 gas at 6:00 (instead of a third).
You need to take the third at the same time. So compare 16/15 with 3rd at 7:00 to 11/18 with 3rd at 7:00.
I just tried to test it as a "proper response to FFE". If i full drone (without gas), the 11p/18h will be behind. Because you'll reach 32 drones befores the third is complete (so more than 2 drones by mineral patch). And your income will not be optimal. With the gas, you never reach 32 drones on minerals before the third.
try testing it instead of theorycrafting it. Because theoretically, you would think that 16p/15h would be better than 11/18, but if that's wrong according to tests, well, that would be interesting.
If you think 32 drones is critical, why not do a test where you do 16/15 where you grab third not based on time, but at certain drone count (ie 36 supply) and then 11/18 at identical supply.
It would interesting to see what is more important, or made for better results. I would think taking them at different times ultimately changes the build, but taking it at identical times keeps the 'ordering' of the builds same.
I also think testing for third is goofy. Ultimately you are getting at what's better, 11/18, or 16/15. Try testing 11/18 vs 16/15 first. Then, do testing to see when is the best time to take a third. Or, maybe, what's really important, is not what opening you do, but at what drone count you take your third.
i agree with that, but i don't think it'll change something. Because in both opening, i can't have more larvae. So it'll only change resources at the end.
No, it won't change anything, that's the point. If it's irrelevant, and all you are doing is testing what opening is better, leave it out. The time it takes for the drone to travel to plant the geyser or evo, what drone you select, et cetera, does make an impact. Leave out such variables, it just makes the test more complicated. It only makes the tests less accurate, not more.
We understand that in a real game, you need to make lings, gas, et cetera. But tests done before, have shown that, taking gas, or whatever, at identical times, keeps the orders of how builds stack up, the same. So just leave it out. You can always revisit the idea after you do more solid tests. I would think, that's it's better to take such things based on supply/drone count, rather than time though.
Why ? Around 7:30, opening are at the same point. There's no reason it'll be different at 9:00 :s And against an FFE, a zerg should stop drones around 8:30 (depends of the protoss choices).
A lot of the closer builds manifest differences around then, and often times certain builds don't manifest improvements until much later. It's odd. Someone did else this, check his results.
Well, i'm not a super perfect player as i'm only low master. But i think i can drone without supply blocking me ^^ But i see what you mean. If we want a super perfect thing, we should try it in evolution chamber program.
I've tried evo chamber, I'm actually the last person to post in the thread, trying to test this exact same thing (when is it best to take a third?). I'm going to work on it a bit, and maybe you can help me bring interest in the idea of using it to optimize economy rather than unit timing attacks, but so far I've had no luck there.
If you posted replays, it would be more helpful. That's all. Or maybe post when you make overlords - 26/28, et cetera. Look over your games and make sure you made them at the perfect times, and identical times. I know the 2nd and 3rd bases pop at different times, but for the most part, it should be same supply that you make overlord.
All tests are on Shakuras Plateau.
Try a custom map maybe? If you take a faster third on one build over another (an issue solved by my suggestions), maynarding a bunch of drones earlier can have a larger impact. You want to minimize those issues.
I am biased. Because i use 11p/18h all the time so i feel better with this one. It's normal. I created this topic to have "counter arguments" on that.
And I am biased because I used to do 11p/18h for a whole year, and then realized the build sucked ass. It all dawned on me when someone did a very normal, 13 forge, 17 cannon rush, pylon ramp block to me. The main reason I did it was because I thought, hey, I get more money because instead of going 14 pool and having to set one drone on the probe, and another patrolling the ramp, I can go 11 pool, and just keep both drones mining. The asshole did the ramp block, and the lings never came out in time. They actually popped when the cannon popped, and then they died before taking down the shields. This was on top of me using drones to attack the pylons too.
And I've never lost to a proxy 2 gate when going 14 pool. In fact, I've gone hatch first many times against proxy 2 gate and did just fine. I cancelled the hatch, the pool was on the way, and then I made 2 spines in base and then cancelled the one they attacked when they were 99% done, just like you do when you go 11 pool or 14 pool. Get gas, get speed, win.
If 11p/18h is better because of economics, great, I'd love to learn that. But the idea that 11p is safer against any sort of cheese, is absolutely wrong. Hatch first is safe against any proxy gate, I believe, and I can say with 100% confidence, that 15 pool is definitely safe against proxy gates. 11 pool, is just as vulnerable to cannon rushes, as 15 pool. If those 3 pylons ramp blocks go up, you lose. If toss puts 2 cannons behind the mineral line, and you don't react the exact same way as you would with 15 pool, you lose. The only reason hatch first is autoloss to cannon rush though, is because the lings come out so late, that Toss has a good 700+ banked up, and can throw down like 5 pylon/cannons that overwhelm the drones and the lings are just way too late to end the timing, but a 15 pool will get the lings out in time to deal with when toss has 700+ minerals banked to just throw shit down.
I originally started doing 11/18 because of aggressive reasons, against 3 gate expands. I then got out of low masters, and realized that any half decent toss, will easily hold off 11/18 speedling aggression. As for 1g expands, 14/14 is way better timed to deal with it than 11/18 and better for econ, and besides, you can't know that toss is going 1gate expand vs 3 gate expand until after you would have to make the lings to force cancels anyways. And, on top of that, even if you do force 1-2 cancels on the nexus on such 1/3 gate expands, you have to make 2 x larva injects of lings, or about 14 lings, or 7 drones worth, to stop it. It kills your economy so bad, that even if you force 2 cancels with speedling pressure like that, that you actually do more damage to yourself than to the toss who has a 1 minute later expo (i tested this).
So 11/18 is not good for any aggression. It's not any better than 15 pool for dealing with cheeses. So the only other issue is econ. And, the only way 11/18 is better, is if you don't expand, because 14 intentionally pools money so you can take an expo without cutting drones, while 11/18 cuts drones. It just hurts you economically if you plan to play on more than 1 base.
But then, all the 1 base roach all-ins in PvZ are 13 pool, or 12 pool, or some other pool, not 11/18, so even then, it's a shitty build.
If you can prove it's better economically, go for it. It is counter-intuitive, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything - after all, 16 hatch is worse than 15 hatch, and 15 hatch is worse than 14 hatch, when it comes to hatch first builds. But so far, you haven't sold me. It doesn't exactly work that you are basically just testing when is the best time to take a third, and changing the 11/18 third's timing until it's better than the arbitrary time you picked for the 16/15. What's to say that a better third timing wouldn't improve the 16/15 over the 11/18?
Why dont you just test 2 base of 11/18 vs 16/15 first, see what's better. It would stand to reason that, whichever is better as 2 base, woudl be better for 3. Then, do a test for when is the best time, or supply, to take a third. Or, compare 11/18 third vs 16/15 third, and take the third at the exact same drone counts, rather than times.
You should really check out the "A look at zerg openers thread". This has all been done. I think 11/18 was discussed in 'A second look...."
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You don't need to take the third at the same time.
The important thing is state of the game (pun intended) when the builds diverges ... that is, likely, not before the 7:00 minute mark at least.
I think that doing the builds up to 8:00 is the latest possible time it matters what the state of the game is.
I'll check it in a few hours and compare your replays to mine when I do a custom
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^ A lot of times the builds don't manifest improvements until much later. It's weird. check out the 'a look at zerg openers thread' about it. He just shouldn't take a third at all and compare 11/18 and 15/16 as 2 base up to 7:00, or whatever time.
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On March 07 2012 20:42 Belial88 wrote: ^ A lot of times the builds don't manifest improvements until much later. It's weird. check out the 'a look at zerg openers thread' about it. He just shouldn't take a third at all and compare 11/18 and 15/16 as 2 base up to 7:00, or whatever time. Of course you need to take a third, otherwise you don't need more than 25 drones or so on minerals (that allows the income needed to build overlords and zerglings / drones instantly when larvae pops out of 2 bases), and based off optimal saturation, income changes when you reach 32 drones, which is not too far after 6 minutes.
It's very important to state the goal.
For example: At 8:00 I want lair started, ling speed started, roach warren near done, evo chamber 50% + done, 3 queens, 4th making at my 2nd (or 3rd?), 2 active creep tumors, as many drones as possible - 2 (or 3?) gas taken, because after that moment I will make nothing but units and stop economy focus until I have determined for sure what the opponent is doing. Excess minerals goes to macro hatch for more units, over more drones or a 4th base.
(that's somewhat how I play).
Or you could say - at 7:00 I will sacrifice 2 overlords to scout. Based off that, I will react differently. So I am only interested in being in the best possible economic situation at 7:00.
That's fair as well.
What's important is having the optimal state of the game when your build diverges based off opponents choices and your reactions.
At least that's my opinion.
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You need to take the third at the same time. So compare 16/15 with 3rd at 7:00 to 11/18 with 3rd at 7:00.
I don't get that. Why ? :s I mean, if you take your third too soon you must cut your drone production (so you got useless larvaes). If you take your third too late, you'll have a mineral excess and this excess could be a hatch (and so, more drones).
If i test with a third at 7:00 (i can test right now sorry), i think the 15/16 (or 16/15) will be far away behind. Because you'll have a huge mineral excess for at least 3 minutes.
It's clear (to me at least, but maybe i'm wrong), that's the "optimal point for a third" is not the same for the 11/18 and the 15/16. According to that, i don't see the point to test the both opening with the same third timing.
I've tried evo chamber, I'm actually the last person to post in the thread, trying to test this exact same thing (when is it best to take a third?). I'm going to work on it a bit, and maybe you can help me bring interest in the idea of using it to optimize economy rather than unit timing attacks, but so far I've had no luck there.
If you posted replays, it would be more helpful. That's all. Or maybe post when you make overlords - 26/28, et cetera. Look over your games and make sure you made them at the perfect times, and identical times. I know the 2nd and 3rd bases pop at different times, but for the most part, it should be same supply that you make overlord.
The problem with evo chamber is that you can't fix check points with a supply condition or "best economy condition". If i ask "3 hatchs" to evo chamber, it will respond with a build order with the fastest third hatch possible. Not the optimal. So i don't thnik evo chamber can help us
I'll put replay, but i'm french, so i'll be at home in many hours :D
And I am biased because I used to do 11p/18h for a whole year, and then realized the build sucked ass. It all dawned on me when someone did a very normal, 13 forge, 17 cannon rush, pylon ramp block to me. The main reason I did it was because I thought, hey, I get more money because instead of going 14 pool and having to set one drone on the probe, and another patrolling the ramp, I can go 11 pool, and just keep both drones mining. The asshole did the ramp block, and the lings never came out in time. They actually popped when the cannon popped, and then they died before taking down the shields. This was on top of me using drones to attack the pylons too.
And I've never lost to a proxy 2 gate when going 14 pool. In fact, I've gone hatch first many times against proxy 2 gate and did just fine. I cancelled the hatch, the pool was on the way, and then I made 2 spines in base and then cancelled the one they attacked when they were 99% done, just like you do when you go 11 pool or 14 pool. Get gas, get speed, win.
And i'm glad to see you saying this. I wouldn't think that 15/16 is equivalent against early cheese than 11/18.
You should really check out the "A look at zerg openers thread". This has all been done. I think 11/18 was discussed in 'A second look...." I'll check that.
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Hi all, french diamond here.
I use 11 overpool like Magus, but, i take my third quickly on several map like shattered, metalo, antigua, ... because i take the gold.
11 overpool are the best answer against proxy gate and 3pylones on the ramp. in both cheese, you have your zergling in good time, against proxy, you can pop a spine crawler and a queen if you delay zealotte with zergling.
For all people like me who dont have a vrey good micro of drone against cheese, 11overpool are the best responce that i can use.
Pro use this BO on stream and not in competition, ok, and? on competition you play 2 or3 game against the same opponent, not on ladder
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I disagree, like belial88, that 11pool is better against cheese. See, making a pool on 11 is really bad for your economy, you fix that by getting an early queen which lets you build drones slightly faster. If you use that early pool instead to build early lings to defend cheese, you're cementing the bad economy of the build and your lings will still not come out early enough to make a difference anyway, the difference in "pop time" is actually pretty minor and you will need to pull drones regardless. Proxy gates hit too late, a 15pool can have lings out by then.
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See, making a pool on 11 is really bad for your economy If i remember well, someone already proved that 11/18 is just a little behind a hatch first (at 15) in economy. So i don't agree with that.
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11 pool is bad for economy because of the fact that you delay drone production and stack larva. The earlier the drones are made, the more minerals later. The drone made now will have an exponential effect on economy assuming you keep making drones.This could mean an earlier queen, 1 creep tumor. Earlier evo chambers, perhaps a 4th queen, macro hatch. It all depends on how you want to play it out.
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14pool 16hatch without dronescout is the way to go.
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On March 07 2012 21:24 flaxxen wrote: 14pool 16hatch without dronescout is the way to go.
I don't want to be rude. But it's a pretty useless post ...
I looked at : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464 It's very interesting, but all tests stop at 6:00. And there's nothing about an expand and a third.
I personnally feel that openers are very different according to the situation. The situation here is against a FFE. We can't just test openers alone.
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On March 07 2012 21:21 agahamsorr0w wrote: 11 pool is bad for economy because of the fact that you delay drone production and stack larva. .
search on this board, there a graphic that explain why you are wrong.
11overpool 18 hatch and 15p16h are the same on economic, and protoss CANT stop your expand. with 15p16h, if protoss are good, u can take your second base on 16 but on 21 ^^ or more
with, 11 overpool, you have a 2 queen quickly and a lot of larva.
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On March 07 2012 21:35 shoooryuken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 21:21 agahamsorr0w wrote: 11 pool is bad for economy because of the fact that you delay drone production and stack larva. . search on this board, there a graphic that explain why you are wrong. 11overpool 18 hatch and 15p16h are the same on economic, and protoss CANT stop your expand. with 15p16h, if protoss are good, u can take your second base on 16 but on 21 ^^ or more with, 11 overpool, you have a 2 queen quickly and a lot of larva. This is wrong.
Because you are going for 3 hatch as a response to forge fast expand, you simply take your third base location as your second base. And 11 / 18 and 15 / 16 I do not think are the same on economics, and I aim to prove that when I come home in a few hours.
In the earlier thread that was done for comparing those two, I believe they were roughly equal on larvae, but 15/16 had 300 minerals or so more harvested (which matters for putting down your third base).
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On March 07 2012 21:38 aebriol wrote:In the earlier thread that was done for comparing those two, I believe they were roughly equal on larvae, but 15/16 had 300 minerals or so more harvested (which matters for putting down your third base).
And that exacty what i am saying in this thread. With 15/16, you have 300 minerals at 4:00. So you can't put a third. With a 11/18, you can't have this excess. Because you have more larvae and you use it to make drones. But you have this excess a 6:00.
If your point is "with a 15/16 you have a faster third", we all agree with you :D But that's not the point here.
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On March 07 2012 21:17 Magus.421 wrote:If i remember well, someone already proved that 11/18 is just a little behind a hatch first (at 15) in economy. So i don't agree with that. From a pure mineral/drone etc perspective, you can make the case that 11/18 is close to 15 hatch in some situations. However, this is assuming that you're only building drones, building lings after an 11 pool is a much bigger hit on economy than it is for a 14 pool, you rely on the extra drones from the 11pool to catch up. Comparing an 11/18 to a 15 hatch is stupid anyway since the best aspects of hatch first is ignored when counting just minerals and drones. You get massively faster creepspread and a faster second queen, for example.
It's also important to note that there's more to builds than X amounts of minerals at time T. How much you bank at certain point and how this directs the flow is important as well. For example, when doing 14 pool 16 hatch vs P, the flow is perfect. When you get to 16 supply, your second overlord is over your nat. No probe there? You can expand immediately. Otherwise, get a third overlord, a queen and 2 pair of lings for that money instead, then get the hatch immediately afterwards. You have the perfect bank of minerals at the perfect time to make an important choice and will never been in a situation you don't have an answer to.
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On March 07 2012 18:20 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 18:16 oOOoOphidian wrote: Are you making 4 lings when the pool finishes in both cases? I'm curious how that affects the economy, specifically as 11p/18h only gets any advantage if it makes those early lings, but it also is required to hit very tight drone timings to keep up with 15p/15h. The hatchery getting blocked is one of the main reasons for trying 11p/18h, but as DRG showed it is easy to just run a drone to the third base location instead and the 15h after pool is still essentially guaranteed (though possibly vulnerable to cannon rushes as the distance for your workers to defend it is longer).
Personally I like going 11p/18h simply to scout and deny hidden probes around the map early on, as well as try to force players to go forge and cannon before nexus and gate (though if you only make 2-4 lings that isn't likely necessary, they don't always know if you will make 6 or do a full on all-in with drones etc). It's also quite possible to deny all knowledge of an expansion or gas timings in some cases, which can really throw off a protoss and may make them play overly defensive. Oh yes i forgot, i made 4 zerglings each times. And yes with a 15p/16h you can just take your third if the protoss is trying to block your natural.
They'll block your 3rd and perhaps even put a cannon at the nat+3rd :-)
On March 07 2012 20:48 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 20:42 Belial88 wrote: ^ A lot of times the builds don't manifest improvements until much later. It's weird. check out the 'a look at zerg openers thread' about it. He just shouldn't take a third at all and compare 11/18 and 15/16 as 2 base up to 7:00, or whatever time. For example: At 8:00 I want lair started, ling speed started, roach warren near done, evo chamber 50% + done, 3 queens, 4th making at my 2nd (or 3rd?), 2 active creep tumors, as many drones as possible - 2 (or 3?) gas taken, because after that moment I will make nothing but units and stop economy focus until I have determined for sure what the opponent is doing. Excess minerals goes to macro hatch for more units, over more drones or a 4th base.
Out of pure interest: How does your zvp play out when your roach warren is not done by 8 minutes and not your ling speed either, nor your lair? This seems really late.
Starting a roach warren at 7 is pushing it, at 7:30 is really pushing it. at 8:00 seems awkward without ling speed.
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From a pure mineral/drone etc perspective, you can make the case that 11/18 is close to 15 hatch in some situations. However, this is assuming that you're only building drones, building lings after an 11 pool is a much bigger hit on economy than it is for a 14 pool, you rely on the extra drones from the 11pool to catch up. Comparing an 11/18 to a 15 hatch is stupid anyway since the best aspects of hatch first is ignored when counting just minerals and drones. You get massively faster creepspread and a faster second queen, for example.
I agree. And a hatch first against a FFE is really hard to hold. But here, we are against a FFE. I don't want to compare all openers in a "full drone games no matter what the openent is doing". I just want to compare openers against a FFE. We can compare with the 15h, but it's not very smart i think.
It's also important to note that there's more to builds than X amounts of minerals at time T. How much you bank at certain point and how this directs the flow is important as well. For example, when doing 14 pool 16 hatch vs P, the flow is perfect. When you get to 16 supply, your second overlord is over your nat. No probe there? You can expand immediately. Otherwise, get a third overlord, a queen and 2 pair of lings for that money instead, then get the hatch immediately afterwards. You have the perfect bank of minerals at the perfect time to make an important choice and will never been in a situation you don't have an answer to.
You can make the same with a 11/18. But you can also make the choice to make 4 zerglings (instead of 2) with an extractor trick, kill the pylone and put your expand. After that, the protoss can't know if you'll take a third or take 4 gas at 6:00 to make a T2 agressive style.
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I tried the different builds 3 times each, and here are my results: (4 lings right out of the bat, same gas/lair/warren timings as op).
11p 19h 73 drones @ 8:30 with "fast" third (will try later third soon) 14p 16h 77 drones @ 8:30 15p 16h 83 drones @ 8:30
I think the difference isn't as huge as some players make it out to be, but there is definitely one, you will sac 10%ish eco @ 8:30 if you execute the builds smoothly.
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On March 07 2012 21:44 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +From a pure mineral/drone etc perspective, you can make the case that 11/18 is close to 15 hatch in some situations. However, this is assuming that you're only building drones, building lings after an 11 pool is a much bigger hit on economy than it is for a 14 pool, you rely on the extra drones from the 11pool to catch up. Comparing an 11/18 to a 15 hatch is stupid anyway since the best aspects of hatch first is ignored when counting just minerals and drones. You get massively faster creepspread and a faster second queen, for example. I agree. And a hatch first against a FFE is really hard to hold. But here, we are against a FFE. I don't want to compare all openers in a "full drone games no matter what the openent is doing". I just want to compare openers against a FFE. We can compare with the 15h, but it's not very smart i think. Show nested quote +It's also important to note that there's more to builds than X amounts of minerals at time T. How much you bank at certain point and how this directs the flow is important as well. For example, when doing 14 pool 16 hatch vs P, the flow is perfect. When you get to 16 supply, your second overlord is over your nat. No probe there? You can expand immediately. Otherwise, get a third overlord, a queen and 2 pair of lings for that money instead, then get the hatch immediately afterwards. You have the perfect bank of minerals at the perfect time to make an important choice and will never been in a situation you don't have an answer to. You can make the same with a 11/18. But you can also make the choice to make 4 zerglings (instead of 2) with an extractor trick, kill the pylone and put your expand. After that, the protoss can't know if you'll take a third or take 4 gas at 6:00 to make a T2 agressive style. I'm not comparing it with 15 hatch, I'm saying the common argument that 11/18 is close to a hatch first is a useless argument because it's not based on good evidence.
As for 11/18 having the same option as 14 16, I disagree. By the time you make the choice, a 14 pooler is still ahead in both minerals and drones by a decent margin, the 11 pooler hasn't caught up yet. 11/18 just isn't a very good opening unless you build your hatch before any lings.
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11 pool is behind a 14 pool at the moment you put your pool. It's pretty obvious. But unless you are against a 6 pool, i don't think it mean anything.
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Why is 11/18 being compared with 14/16 rather than 12/19? Is 12/19 worse than either? 12/19 seems to be the big standard.
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On March 07 2012 22:03 Magus.421 wrote: 11 pool is behind a 14 pool at the moment you put your pool. It pretty obvious. But unless you are against a 6 pool, i don't think it mean anything. An 11 pool is behind in minerals to at least the 6 minute mark. An 11 pool is behind in drones until the 4:20 mark.
At the specific time where you decide whether to place your hatch or get queens and lings with a 14 pool 16 hatch, you're quite a bit ahead of 11/18 in both departments, you can afford to go for the queens and lings instead of the hatch if you need to. An 11 pool in the same situation is behind and thus doesn't have the same freedom.
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On March 07 2012 22:03 kaluro wrote: Why is 11/18 being compared with 14/16 rather than 12/19? Is 12/19 worse than either? 12/19 seems to be the big standard.
Well, most of the time, 11/18 is a 11/19. Because the protoss put a pylon on your expand so you need 4 zerglings to kill it. Sometimes it's a 11/20 (double extractor trick) if the protoss do something weird.
I don't know the real difference between 11 or 12 pool.
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On March 07 2012 22:06 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 22:03 Magus.421 wrote: 11 pool is behind a 14 pool at the moment you put your pool. It pretty obvious. But unless you are against a 6 pool, i don't think it mean anything. An 11 pool is behind in minerals to at least the 6 minute mark. An 11 pool is behind in drones until the 4:20 mark.
Yes. As this topic says : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464 But here, we are against a FFE. And you don't need to stop drone until at leat 7:30 (except again the kiwikaki zealot rush). That's what i'm saying since the beginning ^^
I already know that's the 11/18 is not a good opener agaisnt a "one base protoss". And i don't use it on metaloplis and shattered temple.
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On March 07 2012 22:03 kaluro wrote: Why is 11/18 being compared with 14/16 rather than 12/19? Is 12/19 worse than either? 12/19 seems to be the big standard. 12 pool is more or less identical to 14 pool. The pool is slightly later and 14 gives slightly better economy.
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On March 07 2012 22:10 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 22:06 Tobberoth wrote:On March 07 2012 22:03 Magus.421 wrote: 11 pool is behind a 14 pool at the moment you put your pool. It pretty obvious. But unless you are against a 6 pool, i don't think it mean anything. An 11 pool is behind in minerals to at least the 6 minute mark. An 11 pool is behind in drones until the 4:20 mark. Yes. As this topic says : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464But here, we are against a FFE. And you don't need to stop drone until at leat 7:30 (except again the kiwikaki zealot rush). That's what i'm saying since the beginning ^^ I'm discussing the specific situation where you have to decide whether to build a hatch or a queen when you do a 14/16. it's a choice you can't make when doing 11/18, which is why 14 16 is more stable. Doesn't matter if it's an FFE or not, the point is that the amount of economy you have at this key time when doing a 14/16 is really nice and makes the build good, regardless of exact math on amount of drones at X minutes etc.
The point is that pure theorycraft only gets you so far.
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I'm discussing the specific situation where you have to decide whether to build a hatch or a queen when you do a 14/16. it's a choice you can't make when doing 11/18, which is why 14 16 is more stable.
In what situation you have to make that choice ?
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On March 07 2012 22:21 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +I'm discussing the specific situation where you have to decide whether to build a hatch or a queen when you do a 14/16. it's a choice you can't make when doing 11/18, which is why 14 16 is more stable. In what situation you have to make that choice ? If you're pylon blocked when going 14/16, you can just make a queen and two pair of lings instead, take down the pylon and expand. Your expand is slightly delayed, but you used all your cash and you're perfectly fine, you were going to build that immediately after the hatch anyway, so you just switched the position of the two in your build. If you're pylon blocked doing 11/18, you have to build lings and take down the pylon to put down your hatch. Same as 14/16, yes, but the difference is that this happens too early for 11/18 to catch up to 14/16, so the whole point of going 11/18 is ruined. Having your hatch delayed and being forced to build lings suck for 11/18, it doesn't for 14/16.
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Wait...how do you have 70 drones by 8:30, is that supposed to be normal? I think the most I ever have by that time would be 60, and I don't take my 2 gas until 44 supply...
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^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Watch DRG vs genius recently, when he goes fast third in the finals games. He hits at least 75 supply every time at the 8:00 mark except on 1 game he only hit 70. It could be that your taking gas too quickly (ie your banking gas quickly) or your evo/roach warren (7:00/7:30 respectively) are too early.
Which, now that you mention it, I do find the tests a bit funny here. I hit usually 70 supply at 8:00 with 14 pool/~21 hatch with gases taken, roaches, lings, and everything, in an actual game. If the OP isn't hitting at least 70 at 8:00, either the tests are really flawed, or that just shows 14 pool is wayyyy better than 11pool.
... yea OP i think your test must be really fucked up in some way. The gases, maybe lair timing, I don't know what, but you aren't doing them right. DRG hits 75 supply with 14 pool and 16 hatch every time by 8:00. That you can't do that in a closed environment means somethings wrong.
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Maybe i takes extractors at a very wrong timing. Or maybe i'm just really noob at macro :s I take 2 gas at 6:00 and 1 more at 7:00.
When i got 100 gas, i start lair + roach warren + evo chamber When i got 100 gas again, i start zergling speed. And usually (not in this tests, i talk about my standard ZvP), i start the +1 range with the 100 next gas.
Should i do it differently ?
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some things i count in time, some in supply. im not sure what you mean. I think of when 3rd is done and queen is like halfway i get 2 gas, and then 7:00 evo/7:30 roach and scout. ~30 third. It makes a big deal how you make overlords, making them too late or too early really screws shit up. watch like a drg game and see how he does it, he manages to get 75+ every time. i always thought like 70 was the tops possible but he easily gets past that at 8:00.
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I'll check DRG vs Genius.
Do you know where can i find the vod or the replay ?
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On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3
What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !"
Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game.
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On March 07 2012 23:09 joeyBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3 What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !" Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game. Obvious difference being that if DRG doesn't hit 70 drones by 8 min, it's because he can't for some reason, not because his macro is bad. If you're playing vs a very easy ai just to test the macro, you can obviously do benchmarks just fine. Benchmarks only lack meaning if there's a specific reason, such as your opponent allinning you, which will obviously keep your dronecount down.
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On March 07 2012 23:21 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 23:09 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3 What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !" Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game. Obvious difference being that if DRG doesn't hit 70 drones by 8 min, it's because he can't for some reason, not because his macro is bad. If you're playing vs a very easy ai just to test the macro, you can obviously do benchmarks just fine. Benchmarks only lack meaning if there's a specific reason, such as your opponent allinning you, which will obviously keep your dronecount down.
...what i tried to express with the sentence "every game has its own dynamic" Of course you can do benchmarks, im just putting out my opinion to not get too obsessed with measurements like these, since they cant hold up to real games. If you want to spend your time and play against the AI to make benchmarks like this, instead of watching "real" Replays, than thats your fair and good choice. Got no problems with that.
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On March 07 2012 23:32 joeyBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 23:21 Tobberoth wrote:On March 07 2012 23:09 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3 What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !" Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game. Obvious difference being that if DRG doesn't hit 70 drones by 8 min, it's because he can't for some reason, not because his macro is bad. If you're playing vs a very easy ai just to test the macro, you can obviously do benchmarks just fine. Benchmarks only lack meaning if there's a specific reason, such as your opponent allinning you, which will obviously keep your dronecount down. ...what i tried to express with the sentence "every game has its own dynamic" Of course you can do benchmarks, im just putting out my opinion to not get too obsessed with measurements like these, since they cant hold up to real games. If you want to spend your time and play against the AI to make benchmarks like this, instead of watching "real" Replays, than thats your fair and good choice. Got no problems with that. You obviously need benchmarks to do comparisions, how could we possibly get anywhere in the discussion if we had to account for every possible dynamic? When you want to define aspects of builds, you need to compare them on even grounds, you can't compare an 11/18 when you're being 4gated to a 14 pool where your opponent forgets to build workers. So what do you do? You ignore the computer and show what the builds can do in an optimal situation. Belial just said that since he can personally do way better in real games, 60 drones at 8 minutes obviously isn't optimal, so the tests need to be redone.
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Pros players don't use often 11/18 in officials tournaments. They use it on the ladder. So i only find games "11/18 vs FFE" on livestreams. It's not really simple to compare 2 openers with a livestreams vod.
But for 15/16, you can find a tons of replay files.
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On March 07 2012 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 23:32 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 23:21 Tobberoth wrote:On March 07 2012 23:09 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3 What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !" Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game. Obvious difference being that if DRG doesn't hit 70 drones by 8 min, it's because he can't for some reason, not because his macro is bad. If you're playing vs a very easy ai just to test the macro, you can obviously do benchmarks just fine. Benchmarks only lack meaning if there's a specific reason, such as your opponent allinning you, which will obviously keep your dronecount down. ...what i tried to express with the sentence "every game has its own dynamic" Of course you can do benchmarks, im just putting out my opinion to not get too obsessed with measurements like these, since they cant hold up to real games. If you want to spend your time and play against the AI to make benchmarks like this, instead of watching "real" Replays, than thats your fair and good choice. Got no problems with that. You obviously need benchmarks to do comparisions, how could we possibly get anywhere in the discussion if we had to account for every possible dynamic? When you want to define aspects of builds, you need to compare them on even grounds, you can't compare an 11/18 when you're being 4gated to a 14 pool where your opponent forgets to build workers. So what do you do? You ignore the computer and show what the builds can do in an optimal situation. Belial just said that since he can personally do way better in real games, 60 drones at 8 minutes obviously isn't optimal, so the tests need to be redone.
I'm wondering if you're missing my point. Just made my post to put some sentences into the right perspective, 'cause they seemed too "harsh" and judging, based on artificial measurements. Nothing more, nothing less. Again: What you or anyone else does, to get proper measurements, is completely his or her choice.
Just my opinion: If Lionel Messi is going to train, he isn't running over an empty field doing 10 different ways of flanking and attacking to see, which one is the most effective to score a goal. He trains these situations with Pratice Partners and Teammates over and over again, to get a feel and experience what does work and what not. [Except he is practicing free kicks or stuff like that, which would compare to train Hotkeys ] How far you can go with one thing and how another thing doesnt work. Same goes with StarCraft.
Of course we can compare builds like these all day, all night, but i think its highly recommend for lower level players like us, to watch reps of guys like DRG, doing their builds in a real environment and see how their macro develops in an effective situation. Sure, you can train like 10 times to hit a specific amount of drones or supply at mark X. But will you do it in a real game, in a situation of competition ? I dont think so. Again...im just putting out my opinion, of course this IS the only way to "mathematically" get some data, you're absolutely and 100% right. But will this help you more, instead of watching 10 to 20 DRG replays, doing a highly refined build which IS propably the best one you can choose out there ?! I dont think so...Again: MY opinion, you may respect it like i respect yours, although you dont have to agree with me.
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On March 07 2012 23:50 joeyBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 23:36 Tobberoth wrote:On March 07 2012 23:32 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 23:21 Tobberoth wrote:On March 07 2012 23:09 joeyBanana wrote:On March 07 2012 22:40 Belial88 wrote: ^If you aren't hitting at least 70 drones by 8:30 when going fast third, then you are having serious macro issues. Most likely, if it isn't straight up supply blocks, which lower your count to about 60 at the 8:00 mark instead of 70 (ie 10 per), you are making overlords too early or a little too late. Making an overlord too early is like 3-5 supply/drones lost.
Yeah, than that kid, whats his name, DRG, really got some "serious macro issues", hitting only 55 vs Huk on Antiga, 65 on Daybreak and 59 vs Sase on Shak @ 8:30 [MLG Winter Arena] ... :-3 What i want to say: Comparing benchmarks like this don't make any sense at all, every game has its own dynamic and i disagree with measuring the count of drones, money, larvae, etc. in an artificial way. You cant say "Hit X number of drones at Y point in time, otherwise you suck !" Just here to calm all the nerves of my fellow Newb-Zs: When the best player in the world only hits an average of about 59 Drones, you're pretting good if ya hit about 5 to 10 less. Just dont look only at the drone count, but the dynamic affecting the whole development of the game. Obvious difference being that if DRG doesn't hit 70 drones by 8 min, it's because he can't for some reason, not because his macro is bad. If you're playing vs a very easy ai just to test the macro, you can obviously do benchmarks just fine. Benchmarks only lack meaning if there's a specific reason, such as your opponent allinning you, which will obviously keep your dronecount down. ...what i tried to express with the sentence "every game has its own dynamic" Of course you can do benchmarks, im just putting out my opinion to not get too obsessed with measurements like these, since they cant hold up to real games. If you want to spend your time and play against the AI to make benchmarks like this, instead of watching "real" Replays, than thats your fair and good choice. Got no problems with that. You obviously need benchmarks to do comparisions, how could we possibly get anywhere in the discussion if we had to account for every possible dynamic? When you want to define aspects of builds, you need to compare them on even grounds, you can't compare an 11/18 when you're being 4gated to a 14 pool where your opponent forgets to build workers. So what do you do? You ignore the computer and show what the builds can do in an optimal situation. Belial just said that since he can personally do way better in real games, 60 drones at 8 minutes obviously isn't optimal, so the tests need to be redone. I'm wondering if you're missing my point. Just made my post to put some sentences into the right perspective, 'cause they seemed too "harsh" and judging, based on artificial measurements. Nothing more, nothing less. Again: What you or anyone else does, to get proper measurements, is completely his or her choice. Just my opinion: If Lionel Messi is going to train, he isn't running over an empty field doing 10 different ways of flanking and attacking to see, which one is the most effective to score a goal. He trains these situations with Pratice Partners and Teammates over and over again, to get a feel and experience what does work and what not. [Except he is practicing free kicks or stuff like that, which would compare to train Hotkeys ] How far you can go with one thing and how another thing doesnt work. Same goes with StarCraft. Of course we can compare builds like these all day, all night, but i think its highly recommend for lower level players like us, to watch reps of guys like DRG, doing their builds in a real environment and see how their macro develops in an effective situation. Sure, you can train like 10 times to hit a specific amount of drones or supply at mark X. But will you do it in a real game, in a situation of competition ? I dont think so. Again...im just putting out my opinion, of course this IS the only way to "mathematically" get some data, you're absolutely and 100% right. But will this help you more, instead of watching 10 to 20 DRG replays, doing a highly refined build which IS propably the best one you can choose out there ?! I dont think so...Again: MY opinion, you may respect it like i respect yours, although you dont have to agree with me. If messi wants to see if he's faster than ronaldino, you have them run a few hundred meters, you don't ask them to play a soccer game each and calculate their mean speed.
It's not about it helping you more, maybe you missed out, but this isn't a thread about how to improve your amount of drones, it's a discussion about two different builds. The comparision is what matters, not how random newbs want to get better at the game.
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14/15p and then a 16 hatch is really good for straight up standard macro because if he FEE then you can 3 hatch before gas. 11p/18h i feel is a BO win or lose imho because if he is greedy and did a nexus first then you win.
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Is there a map where i can test this out ? Kinda like Yabot, except they're outdated...
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You should look into NesTea's 12/19, much better than the 11/18 but with an extra drone a slight less waste in minerals if your timings are proper.
I also remember hearing something along the lines of 11/18(12/19) only viable on 2 spawn only maps. I guess for the added security of whatever Protoss might try to pull on you. Just my 2 cents.
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Hmm I'm actually very curious as to why pros don't do this in tourneys?
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I think we need replays if we are going to discuss this.
A testrun I did of 15 pool 16 overlord 16 hatch (at third base location) 22 2nd queen 24 overlord 24 3rd hatch:
6:00 44 / 52 supply - 33 drones, 2 queens, 4 zerglings, 6 overlords, 2 larva. Production: 3rd hatch 100% done (morphing in that second), 3rd queen (48 / 50 done), 3 drones.
7:00 61 / 62 supply. - 45 drones, 4 zerglings, 7 overlords, 3 queens, 10 larvae. Production: 2 overlord, 8 drones.
8:30 - 83 / 94 supply. - 75 drones, 3 queens, 4 zerglings, 3 queens,lair, evo chamber done, Production: ling speed 60 / 110 done, +1 carapace 9 / 160 done, roach warren 49 / 55 Resources: 200 gas (+150 for carapace), 695 minerals (+150 for carapace) (but I made 5 more drones, so that's 250 more if you want to look at it that way).
Thing is that i would never drone that long in a normal game, and around 7:00 I will sacrifice two overlords. So that changes the build quite a bit. In addition, I value creep more than two injects normally...
In addition, I notice that if you delay roach warren and evo chamber just slightly, it gives you more drones earlier ... so we'd have to compare the exact second we put down roach warren and evo chamber if it should be comparable.
I think it's better to just stop the testing at 7:50 or so, because that's when you normally should stop droning. Also, you would have lost some overlords at that point in time.
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Well, i'm back at home ! And i made my tests again.
Here's the replay : 11 pool 18 hatch : http://terranimba.com/replay/OaJAgN2wZ6 15 pool 16 hatch : http://terranimba.com/replay/CYoZupb7wu4E7
If you watch the replay of 15p/16h, you'll see i'm pretty noob with this build order. But, even with a bad replay like these, the results are ... clear.
As you can see. Despite of the fact i'm a noob with the 15p/16h, the 11p/18h is behind (with a third at 6:00, and it's worse with a third around 4:00). I don't feel i sucked with the 11p/18h, but maybe it's false.
Can someone make a proper replay for the 15p/16h ?
Note that's for the 11p/18h, i got 19 larvaes so i could make 19 drones. But they can't be ready for 9:00 so i just keep larvaes.
Maybe i'm wrong, but i think the only scenario where 11p/18h is better is when you want to stay on 2 bases against a FFE (hatch first is better, but you can't hatch first easily against a FFE). 15p/16h is really better for a fast third. But i don't know what's going on is the protoss block your expand.
@Belial : Now with 15/16 i hit 70 supply at 8:00 ^^ And i'm still pretty noob with this so i could make better.
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I'm interested to see the difference between a 14/16 (or 15/16) vs say a 14/21 w/ a pylon block
Edit: Are you the magus from the melee scene?
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On March 08 2012 04:39 arcane1129 wrote:Edit: Are you the magus from the melee scene?
I don't know what is the "melee scene", so i would answer : no ^^
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On March 08 2012 04:43 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 04:39 arcane1129 wrote:Edit: Are you the magus from the melee scene? I don't know what is the "melee scene", so i would answer : no ^^
Ah, there's someone named Magus that plays smash bros. melee and his youtube account was Magus421.
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A coincidence :D 421 is just my character code ^^
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Reasons for a quicker pool can be to deal with hatchery blocking better and force P into less ideal builds (for example forge before nexus). Both reasons can be pretty big depending on the map. The smaller the map is the bigger these effects get (you are more likely to be blocked and the threat of ling pressure is bigger). Economically speaking early pool builds are just plain worse then later pool builds. The reason is simple: larvae count is not really important, money is. If you have more money and less larvae you can simply get a third quicker. If you have too much larvae and not enough money you are wasting larvae.
The choice between the builds should depend on the map and early scouting information there is. For example if the map is big (and cannoning not too easy) hatch first or 14p/16h or something like it is just best. The other advantages of a quick pool (threaten pressure => force P into less ideal build, and stopping a hatch block) are of minor importance. If the map is smaller and/or the third is hard to take / very far away then I'd consider a quicker pool. Quicker pool allows you to expand in a reasonable amount of time to the natural always and will force P into a worse build. Getting it too early like at 11 is just a bit silly though as you are cutting drones without real reason then.
The earliest i'd ever get it would be 12 as that's the fastest without actually cutting larvae. You delay drones a bit though and lose the drone making the pool earlier so it's definately costly in that respect. With 12 pool I also find that making the second queen straight after the first (assuming you go 4 lings) is really difficult, while going for quick queens is one of the reasons to get that early pool. Therefore I like 13 pool best on the smaller maps, later pool or hatch first on the bigger ones.
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It isn't the exact same at 7 minutes as a 14p 16h. And pros don't do it because it relies on your opponent blindly going 15 nexus. If they forge at 13 and deny your lings then it was a complete waste to pool at 11 instead of 14. Then the third is later and when either void ray pressure or +1 4gate pressure come in your gonna have a harder time dealing with it than if you would have went 14P. The only reason I see for going 11 pool is if you want to try and get free wins from getting zerglings into the main base.. It is inferior for actually trying a macro game.
And on a side note you still probably don't want to hatch first even against a gateway opening. Protoss can cancel gate and cannon rush. Not cancel gate and cannon rush with zealot pressure (that ones really good). Stalker pressure and almost all of those puts the Protoss in a better spot than if you would have just 14 pool 16 hatched.
Long story short, dont 11 pool unless your gameplan is "rely on Protoss doing something stupid." which is exactly why pros don't do it. They dont plan their build around the Protoss playing risky or doing something dumb.
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I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to?
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For me personally, I consider 15 pool and economic 6 pool to be the two only viable alternatives. But that's just my preference.
I dislike 11-12-13 pools because they aren't very economic, or guaranteed to do something offensively.
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I've seen a lot of players open 11overpool in ZvP (Ret/Stephano) and I think it's a great opening, though usually I prefer 15Pool 16Hatch.
At 45:45 Stephano players two ZvP games in a row opening 11 Overpool into fast 3base, and he plays fairly standard macro from there: http://www.justin.tv/mstephano/b/310164883
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11/12 pool doesn't stop cheese without pulling drones, but it definitely helps if you notice or pull late or he gets a good position on pylons. I've done 12 pool a lot and it's saved my ass against a pylon wall because as long as chip away a bit with drones, you can get lings out in time to finish pylons off before you have losses or he makes more (and you get back to mining faster, which is much harder than with just drones. Not saying this is good enough reason to 12 > 14/15, but yeah.
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On March 08 2012 06:37 Grayboosh wrote: I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to?
You don't hatch first against Protoss going FFE unless you have no clue what your doing...
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Part of the attraction of the 11p/18h is that your hatch can't really be delayed by a pylon block. I've always been put off by those videos of pros microing two drones against a probe to try and get their hatch down, or the sight of a drone attacking a pylon by itself.
And if your opponent doesn't pylon block or cheese then there's no need to make lings at all - the benefit of the early pool is the faster queen + larva injects; lings can wait.
If you want a fast third (against forge expand, presumably) then the 14-15p/16h is a better build since it gets the necessary resources faster. A fast third after 11p is ok; it's just less optimal.
I never take quick thirds myself (I can never hold them) so it makes no difference to me.
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Please do a test, with this build:
9 Overlord 12 Spawning pool 16 Queen [constant inject] 18 Make 2 Extractors, 4 Zerglings, Cancel Both Extractor 19 Overlord 19 Hatchery 20 Queen [first tumor in main, then tumors in natural] 22 Overlord 28-30 Hatch (should be at 5:00)
I'm mid master zerg and I been doing this build every ZvP, and my ZvP is around high masters level; Just wondering if that build is viable or if I should change to something else.
On topic: I think only reason for earlier pool, is the no pylon block. With 15p/16h you can get lucky and get it down straight away, if then which you are way ahead of 11p/18h or my 12p/19h. If there is pylon block, I think it can still be ahead, but it is hard to say (depends on cancels, when pylon is put down; is it building or finished building, are there cancels?, does he put it back down, how many drones you pull to kill or how many lings). I just like my build because it is always constant.
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On March 08 2012 07:39 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 06:37 Grayboosh wrote: I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to? You don't hatch first against Protoss going FFE unless you have no clue what your doing...
Don't bother responding unless you can address my questions. It has been stated that with a 15p/16h, if the toss pylon blocks your Nat, you can just take your third. You can do this with a 16h/15p as well, so why go pool first?
What does pool first specifically protect you against? Zealot Stalker pressure??
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On March 08 2012 12:39 Grayboosh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 07:39 Berailfor wrote:On March 08 2012 06:37 Grayboosh wrote: I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to? You don't hatch first against Protoss going FFE unless you have no clue what your doing... Don't bother responding unless you can address my questions. It has been stated that with a 15p/16h, if the toss pylon blocks your Nat, you can just take your third. You can do this with a 16h/15p as well, so why go pool first? What does pool first specifically protect you against? Zealot Stalker pressure?? It protects you from a 9 scout denying your hatchery. DRG sends his drone to the third base in that case anyway, but if that also gets blocked (which has happened), then by having your pool finished you can still get a reasonably timed 3 hatches.
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On March 08 2012 12:39 Grayboosh wrote: It has been stated that with a 15p/16h, if the toss pylon blocks your Nat, you can just take your third. You can do this with a 16h/15p as well, so why go pool first?
What does pool first specifically protect you against? Zealot Stalker pressure?? If a probe is blocking, it automatically delays the hatchery substantially even if you move to build one at a 3rd. Some 3rds are particularly far away such as on shattered temple or xelnaga caverns. That is even assuming that building a 3rd is viable. If you're against a good player, they can pylon block the natural, and chase any drone moving to a 3rd, which allows denial of both the natural and the third.
The only surefire way I see to deal with blocking (if going hatch first) is pulling a bunch of drones to kill the pylon. It gives a guaranteed hatchery at the natural with a guaranteed limit of time lost before being able to build an expansion. Obviously it still costs a TON of resources to execute. With 15p 16h, you could get away with waiting for the pool to finish, but it still takes time before the pylon can be destroyed, completely screwing up the build (hatchery would be no where near it's effective timing)
Getting a pool at 11 or 12 forces the opponent to either play very carefully/safe, and/or to send another probe or 2 or a zealot to scout their opponent, which costs them quite a bit. The zerglings early on help deny scouting (especially useful if running builds like 1 base roach, roach–speedling, or baneling–speedling), and are effective scouts, being faster and having more health per mineral than 1 drone.
On March 08 2012 11:05 CreepyNA wrote: Please do a test, with this build: 9 Overlord 12 Spawning pool 16 Queen [constant inject] 18 Make 2 Extractors, 4 Zerglings, Cancel Both Extractor 19 Overlord 19 Hatchery 20 Queen [first tumor in main, then tumors in natural] 22 Overlord 28-30 Hatch (should be at 5:00) I'm mid master zerg and I been doing this build every ZvP, and my ZvP is around high masters level; Just wondering if that build is viable or if I should change to something else. As far as I can tell, it's bad. If you're getting a pool at 12, you should be doing overlord extractor trick. that means: 10/10 extractor, drone, cancel extractor From there you have the option of either: 11/10 pool and 12/18 pool (building one drone when overlord finishes to save half a larva, at the expense of a slightly slower pool [≈7secs]) There's not a big difference between the two.
From there you should gas trick a queen and 2 pair of lings at 15/18 supply (for 19/18 supply), and a hatchery at 19/18 supply, or if you know there's no probe/pylon block potential and don't care about the opponent scouting, just build a queen at 16 supply, and hatchery at 18 (optionally gas trick a pair of lings out after). or if you used a drone scout (don't think it's that effective for this build) and scouted FFE no cannon, you can go 14/18 single gas trick 6 lings (if 11 pool), or 15/18 double gas trick (if 12 pool)
So overall the only major problem to fix is just doing the gas trick instead of 9 overlord.
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It doesn't matter if they're the same at 7:00 because they're completely different before that.
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On March 08 2012 06:37 Grayboosh wrote: I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to? Pylon blocks. Cannon rushes.
Hatching first vs toss is viable, but it depends on how good the toss is and the map. Adding that pool first doesn't actually slow down your economy all that much, but it gives you options if you're blocked. Like I mentioned earlier, if you're blocked, you can just get what you were supposed to get after the hatch first and then get the hatch. It slows down your hatch by 20 seconds, but doesn't make any difference otherwise, which is really nice since it lets you play very consistently, works on all maps no matter what the toss does.
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11/18 is slightly behind the 15/16. You can easily hit 70 supply at 8:00 with a 15/16 but you can't do that with a 11/18 (best i can do is 66).
I wonder how protoss react to 11/18. Because if the 11/18 cause the protoss to delay his tech and/or economy, then all is good. You have between 5 and 10 drones less than with the 15/16, but the protoss push/all-in will hit later.
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As a protoss, nothing scares me more than 14p/14g when I FFE. If I cannot get a probe scout to check ur drone count (you can easily deny me with speedlings) I get really paranoid because an all-in might be comming, and preparing for it screws up all possible teching.
How does 14p/14g into macro work? is it too bad?
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On March 08 2012 18:30 KaiserJohan wrote: How does 14p/14g into macro work? is it too bad? 14g14p is a significant economic sacrifice early for very quick zergling speed. What are you going to do with speedlings against a walled off protoss with cannons... not much. If I was going to all-in I'd definitely not go 14g/14p, I'd get the gas later and start speed only after putting down the roach warren, so that by the time I make roaches and they get to your base, ling speed barely finishes so everything lines up nicely.
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14p/14gas doesn't work as a macro build. If you scout gas going down that early I can't think of a reason not to expect an all in. A few extra canons (2 or 3 in good positioning) is definitely the correct response. If Z decides to macro after that set up the extra canons shouldn't hurt your economy much at all in comparison. (Unless Zerg doesn't mine from it and is just playing mindgames however, its usually safe to assume an all in.)
Back on thread though 14p/15 or 16h is definitely the way to go. Like Belial I played around with 11pool a lot in ZvP. It isn't worth it because like already said timings don't match up. IF you do open 11 and just run past the pylon block and try to get in before a canon can go down is perhaps the only reason I have found it to be better. Microing the lings vs probes to disrupt mining is viable. (Can't remember who but it happened the other day at IEM) The 3rd hatch being so much later means creep spread, Queen positioning, and spore placement are all a bit off as well though not critical. Throwing a 3rd at 6 minutes means that it'll be much harder to defend on maps where toss is doing some sort of early aggression vs the 3rd.
Its always good to test the current state of the game. However, reverting back to an old style, after 14p has been proven better isn't the answer. With the influx of FFE from Toss there isn't much of a reason to do so.
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I think one of the main things if you see a 14/14 is to play standard. Zerg is sacrificing economy for zergling speed, you can safely ignore that. However, a 14/14 might easily lead to a roach/ling allin, now that's something to worry about... so, simply learn the timing and go for the probe scout at that time (send from base, hide out on map... some players are good enough to deny scouting completely, but you should usually be able to do it). When you see the roaches, simply add cannons and sentries, you just need to buy time. If you can't scout the zerg, you have no choice, you have to act as if it's a roach/ling allin blindly. This is what pro's do as well, so there's nothing wrong with that, that's the price for not being able to get the scouting done.
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On March 08 2012 16:04 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 12:39 Grayboosh wrote: It has been stated that with a 15p/16h, if the toss pylon blocks your Nat, you can just take your third. You can do this with a 16h/15p as well, so why go pool first?
What does pool first specifically protect you against? Zealot Stalker pressure?? If a probe is blocking, it automatically delays the hatchery substantially even if you move to build one at a 3rd. Some 3rds are particularly far away such as on shattered temple or xelnaga caverns. That is even assuming that building a 3rd is viable. If you're against a good player, they can pylon block the natural, and chase any drone moving to a 3rd, which allows denial of both the natural and the third. The only surefire way I see to deal with blocking (if going hatch first) is pulling a bunch of drones to kill the pylon. It gives a guaranteed hatchery at the natural with a guaranteed limit of time lost before being able to build an expansion. Obviously it still costs a TON of resources to execute. With 15p 16h, you could get away with waiting for the pool to finish, but it still takes time before the pylon can be destroyed, completely screwing up the build (hatchery would be no where near it's effective timing)
Is your testing accounting for probe/pylon blocks at your nat? There's no reason to assume that this wouldn't happen a majority of the time, and there's also no reason to assume that the probe wouldn't follow your drone to the third and block that as well.
I would like to see how 12p/19h fairs against a 15p/~16h, assuming that the second hatch doesn't actually go down at 16 because you have to wait for 2 sets of lings to hatch, travel to the pylon, and destroy it. You also need to account for lost mining time from the drone who will be morphing into a hatchery, because we're assuming it stayed at the pylon to wittle it down.
Also assume that the probe followed your drone to the third and blocked that too. I don't believe it's fair to assume otherwise, just because you've played against bad toss opponents who let you get away with that.
If 15p/~16h still comes out ahead, economically, I'll be very surprised... but I will also definitely start using this build as opposed to Nestea's 12p/19h.
I would GREATLY appreciate anyone who is able to perform this testing, as would the entire Zerg swarm, I'm sure!
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11/18 and 12/19 are the same. 11/18 is (most of the case) a 11/19 because of the pylone block.
And 11p = 12p. Nestea just delay the pool for 7s by making the drone before the pool.
I'll try to re-test the 15/16 with the help of a protoss friend ^^
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On March 08 2012 22:36 Magus.421 wrote: 11/18 and 12/19 are the same. 11/18 is (most of the case) a 11/19 because of the pylone block.
And 11p = 12p. Nestea just delay the pool for 7s by making the drone before the pool.
I'll try to re-test the 15/16 with the help of a protoss friend ^^ That depends since you can do 3 kinds of 12 pool if I don't remember incorrectly... You can do 11 overpool but making a drone before pool, which is more or less an 11/18... or you can do double extractor trick into pool (which is just a crap opening). Or, you can do a 12 standard, which is more or less identical to a 14/16.
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Nestea do a extractor trick => drone => drone => pool if i remember well. Can someone confirm ?
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Nestea does extractor trick > drone, then overlord, meaning his overlord is building at 11/10 supply. Once overlord is done, he builds another drone, then pool (12 supply). Drone to 15 > overlord > queen > 2 sets of lings (19 supply), then hatch.
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On March 08 2012 16:04 Xapti wrote:
With 15p 16h, you could get away with waiting for the pool to finish, but it still takes time before the pylon can be destroyed, completely screwing up the build (hatchery would be no where near it's effective timing).
If you go 14p 16h and they put a pylon down, all you have to do is make 4 lings when pool finishes, then overlord and double extractor trick to get the queen in time. It puts you even since the toss had to delay his own build 100 minerals and you can proceed as usual. Plus you have 4 lings to hunt down probes (sometimes if you bypass the pylon to take your third instead they cannon rush that base, especially on shakuras).
I do this everytime they put a pylon down to block and by watching said replays I don't end up behind.
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You should always manage to get your hatch down at 16 if you go for 15 pool 16 hatch. It should not be blocked by a probe, unless the protoss feels like putting down two proxy pylons - which is fine, because it delays his build by a lot.
I think you that claim that your hatch 'will' be blocked, fail to understand the build properly.
Check this replay for an example: http://www.mediafire.com/?n3capbbj3vlc6xe
It's based on 10 drone scout, 15 pool 16 hatch, queen and 4 lings, 24 hatch at 4:20. And then just econ until 8:00 when you react based off scouting information.
Second base would be at third base location, based off a probe being ready to block your natural (which you see with your overlord).
It gives: 6:00 42 / 44 supply, 32 drones, 2 queens, third 3 quarter done. 7:00 61 / 62 supply, 2 gas done. 8:00 78 / 78 supply, 59 drones, 11 drones building (for a total of 70 before you put down spores, gas 4+, macro hatch, spines, etc), lair, roach warren and evo chamber being made. 8:30 Lair, evo chamber, roach warren, 3 queens, done. Supply and such would depend on how you respond based off your scouting information ...
Thing is, after 7:00 it would change in a real game because that's when I sacrifice two overlords. Still, you are in good shape at 7:00 with 46 drones, 7 more drones making, 1 creep tumor (about to make another), 3 queens, and lair starting in a few seconds.
I don't think you can equal 61 / 62 supply at 7:00 with 11 / 18. Or?
I would love to see how, so I can study that build if anyone can. On the assumption that 11 / 18 don't require a drone scout, but 15 / 16 does in order to confirm forge expand on maps with more than 2 spawn locations (overlord can scout in time on maps with just 2 spawn locations).
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So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended, it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better, but I've seen several different numbers on that, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically?
I've done 16h/16p for a LONG time against both toss and terran (gold level) so no matter what, pool first vs toss is going to make me a lot safer that what I have been doing, I'm just trying to figure out which one of these higher count (at least 14p) builds is the most optimal from an economic standpoint? Great thread btw, I expect my toss games plus my games against terran bunker rush to be much stronger than they used to be thanks to this thread because I will go pool first in these situations!.
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On March 09 2012 01:19 Dr_Hyde wrote: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended, it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better, but I've seen several different numbers on that, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically?
I've done 16h/16p for a LONG time against both toss and terran (gold level) so no matter what, pool first vs toss is going to make me a lot safer that what I have been doing, I'm just trying to figure out which one of these higher count (at least 14p) builds is the most optimal from an economic standpoint? Great thread btw, I expect my toss games plus my games against terran bunker rush to be much stronger than they used to be thanks to this thread because I will go pool first in these situations!. You should never do anything but 15 hatch vs Terran!
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On March 09 2012 01:22 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:19 Dr_Hyde wrote: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended, it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better, but I've seen several different numbers on that, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically?
I've done 16h/16p for a LONG time against both toss and terran (gold level) so no matter what, pool first vs toss is going to make me a lot safer that what I have been doing, I'm just trying to figure out which one of these higher count (at least 14p) builds is the most optimal from an economic standpoint? Great thread btw, I expect my toss games plus my games against terran bunker rush to be much stronger than they used to be thanks to this thread because I will go pool first in these situations!. You should never do anything but 15 hatch vs Terran!
Even vs bunker rush? I'm fine with that btw, just wondering why, I guess I'm able to fight off most bunker rushes even with hatch first, so probably not an issue, but seems like it would be easier to do with pool first but I guess at the expense of econ, of course, fighting off bunker rushes with hatch first I usually lose a few drones which is econ damaging plus i'm pulling quite a few drones as well which hurts econ too.
Haven't been bunker rushed in a while but it seems like it usually comes after the hatch is down anyways, so maybe couldn't reactively do pool first anyways because I wouldn't know it's coming in time before I place the hatch?
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On March 09 2012 01:28 Dr_Hyde wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:22 aebriol wrote:On March 09 2012 01:19 Dr_Hyde wrote: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended, it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better, but I've seen several different numbers on that, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically?
I've done 16h/16p for a LONG time against both toss and terran (gold level) so no matter what, pool first vs toss is going to make me a lot safer that what I have been doing, I'm just trying to figure out which one of these higher count (at least 14p) builds is the most optimal from an economic standpoint? Great thread btw, I expect my toss games plus my games against terran bunker rush to be much stronger than they used to be thanks to this thread because I will go pool first in these situations!. You should never do anything but 15 hatch vs Terran! Even vs bunker rush? I'm fine with that btw, just wondering why, I guess I'm able to fight off most bunker rushes even with hatch first, so probably not an issue, but seems like it would be easier to do with pool first but I guess at the expense of econ, of course, fighting off bunker rushes with hatch first I usually lose a few drones. You need the creep and you need to avoid him putting bunkers down from your ramp and containing you.
It's actually harder to beat bunker rushes with pool first.
With a confirmed 2 rax bunker rush, you can just pull all your drones to your natural and mine there and defend with those + lings. But if your natural isn't done yet, you really can't do that, because you would stop all mining, and he can just kite you until you die. Or force a cancel then bunker contain you.
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In my games against toss my natural is always probe/pylon blocked, so going for a 15p/16h means that the thid needs to be taken, but doesn't this cause some significant loss in mining time?
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On March 09 2012 00:56 aebriol wrote:You should always manage to get your hatch down at 16 if you go for 15 pool 16 hatch. It should not be blocked by a probe, unless the protoss feels like putting down two proxy pylons - which is fine, because it delays his build by a lot. I think you that claim that your hatch 'will' be blocked, fail to understand the build properly. Check this replay for an example: http://www.mediafire.com/?n3capbbj3vlc6xeIt's based on 10 drone scout, 15 pool 16 hatch, queen and 4 lings, 24 hatch at 4:20. And then just econ until 8:00 when you react based off scouting information. Second base would be at third base location, based off a probe being ready to block your natural (which you see with your overlord). It gives: 6:00 42 / 44 supply, 32 drones, 2 queens, third 3 quarter done. 7:00 61 / 62 supply, 2 gas done. 8:00 78 / 78 supply, 59 drones, 11 drones building (for a total of 70 before you put down spores, gas 4+, macro hatch, spines, etc), lair, roach warren and evo chamber being made. 8:30 Lair, evo chamber, roach warren, 3 queens, done. Supply and such would depend on how you respond based off your scouting information ... Thing is, after 7:00 it would change in a real game because that's when I sacrifice two overlords. Still, you are in good shape at 7:00 with 46 drones, 7 more drones making, 1 creep tumor (about to make another), 3 queens, and lair starting in a few seconds. I don't think you can equal 61 / 62 supply at 7:00 with 11 / 18. Or? I would love to see how, so I can study that build if anyone can. On the assumption that 11 / 18 don't require a drone scout, but 15 / 16 does in order to confirm forge expand on maps with more than 2 spawn locations (overlord can scout in time on maps with just 2 spawn locations).
Aren't you kind of screwed if you scout that your opponent didn't FFE and you expanded to a tough to defend third due to Nat being blocked? I guess you could just wait for lings so you can take your nat, but that would prob put you behind a 12p/19h then.
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On March 09 2012 01:30 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:28 Dr_Hyde wrote:On March 09 2012 01:22 aebriol wrote:On March 09 2012 01:19 Dr_Hyde wrote: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended, it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better, but I've seen several different numbers on that, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically?
I've done 16h/16p for a LONG time against both toss and terran (gold level) so no matter what, pool first vs toss is going to make me a lot safer that what I have been doing, I'm just trying to figure out which one of these higher count (at least 14p) builds is the most optimal from an economic standpoint? Great thread btw, I expect my toss games plus my games against terran bunker rush to be much stronger than they used to be thanks to this thread because I will go pool first in these situations!. You should never do anything but 15 hatch vs Terran! Even vs bunker rush? I'm fine with that btw, just wondering why, I guess I'm able to fight off most bunker rushes even with hatch first, so probably not an issue, but seems like it would be easier to do with pool first but I guess at the expense of econ, of course, fighting off bunker rushes with hatch first I usually lose a few drones. You need the creep and you need to avoid him putting bunkers down from your ramp and containing you. It's actually harder to beat bunker rushes with pool first. With a confirmed 2 rax bunker rush, you can just pull all your drones to your natural and mine there and defend with those + lings. But if your natural isn't done yet, you really can't do that, because you would stop all mining, and he can just kite you until you die. Or force a cancel then bunker contain you.
Gotcha, ok, thanks for the info, I'll keep doing it like I have been, but maybe I'll switch to 15h instead of 16h like I've done for a long time. Anyone know what the difference economically and for drone count is between 15h/15p, 15h/16p, and 16h/16p? Is there a thread on that anywhere? If not, it may be a good thing to test here, even though this thread was about pool first, it would be awesome to get the definitive econ maximized pool first vs toss and hatch first vs terran builds all figured out in one thread!
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On March 09 2012 01:30 KimJongChill wrote: In my games against toss my natural is always probe/pylon blocked, so going for a 15p/16h means that the thid needs to be taken, but doesn't this cause some significant loss in mining time? No.
Because you don't transfer drones there, instead you transfer when your 3rd is up at your natural.
Just check the replay I posted.
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On March 09 2012 01:31 Grayboosh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 00:56 aebriol wrote:You should always manage to get your hatch down at 16 if you go for 15 pool 16 hatch. It should not be blocked by a probe, unless the protoss feels like putting down two proxy pylons - which is fine, because it delays his build by a lot. I think you that claim that your hatch 'will' be blocked, fail to understand the build properly. Check this replay for an example: http://www.mediafire.com/?n3capbbj3vlc6xeIt's based on 10 drone scout, 15 pool 16 hatch, queen and 4 lings, 24 hatch at 4:20. And then just econ until 8:00 when you react based off scouting information. Second base would be at third base location, based off a probe being ready to block your natural (which you see with your overlord). It gives: 6:00 42 / 44 supply, 32 drones, 2 queens, third 3 quarter done. 7:00 61 / 62 supply, 2 gas done. 8:00 78 / 78 supply, 59 drones, 11 drones building (for a total of 70 before you put down spores, gas 4+, macro hatch, spines, etc), lair, roach warren and evo chamber being made. 8:30 Lair, evo chamber, roach warren, 3 queens, done. Supply and such would depend on how you respond based off your scouting information ... Thing is, after 7:00 it would change in a real game because that's when I sacrifice two overlords. Still, you are in good shape at 7:00 with 46 drones, 7 more drones making, 1 creep tumor (about to make another), 3 queens, and lair starting in a few seconds. I don't think you can equal 61 / 62 supply at 7:00 with 11 / 18. Or? I would love to see how, so I can study that build if anyone can. On the assumption that 11 / 18 don't require a drone scout, but 15 / 16 does in order to confirm forge expand on maps with more than 2 spawn locations (overlord can scout in time on maps with just 2 spawn locations). Aren't you kind of screwed if you scout that your opponent didn't FFE and you expanded to a tough to defend third due to Nat being blocked? I guess you could just wait for lings so you can take your nat, but that would prob put you behind a 12p/19h then. Watch the replay.
I drone scout at 10 and the drone scout - after scouting - returns to put down my third when it has confirmed forge expand.
Which is why I was saying that you and others that kept on about 'what if you are blocked' don't understand the build. You end up ahead no matter what.
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On March 09 2012 01:34 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:31 Grayboosh wrote:On March 09 2012 00:56 aebriol wrote:You should always manage to get your hatch down at 16 if you go for 15 pool 16 hatch. It should not be blocked by a probe, unless the protoss feels like putting down two proxy pylons - which is fine, because it delays his build by a lot. I think you that claim that your hatch 'will' be blocked, fail to understand the build properly. Check this replay for an example: http://www.mediafire.com/?n3capbbj3vlc6xeIt's based on 10 drone scout, 15 pool 16 hatch, queen and 4 lings, 24 hatch at 4:20. And then just econ until 8:00 when you react based off scouting information. Second base would be at third base location, based off a probe being ready to block your natural (which you see with your overlord). It gives: 6:00 42 / 44 supply, 32 drones, 2 queens, third 3 quarter done. 7:00 61 / 62 supply, 2 gas done. 8:00 78 / 78 supply, 59 drones, 11 drones building (for a total of 70 before you put down spores, gas 4+, macro hatch, spines, etc), lair, roach warren and evo chamber being made. 8:30 Lair, evo chamber, roach warren, 3 queens, done. Supply and such would depend on how you respond based off your scouting information ... Thing is, after 7:00 it would change in a real game because that's when I sacrifice two overlords. Still, you are in good shape at 7:00 with 46 drones, 7 more drones making, 1 creep tumor (about to make another), 3 queens, and lair starting in a few seconds. I don't think you can equal 61 / 62 supply at 7:00 with 11 / 18. Or? I would love to see how, so I can study that build if anyone can. On the assumption that 11 / 18 don't require a drone scout, but 15 / 16 does in order to confirm forge expand on maps with more than 2 spawn locations (overlord can scout in time on maps with just 2 spawn locations). Aren't you kind of screwed if you scout that your opponent didn't FFE and you expanded to a tough to defend third due to Nat being blocked? I guess you could just wait for lings so you can take your nat, but that would prob put you behind a 12p/19h then. Watch the replay. I drone scout at 10 and the drone scout - after scouting - returns to put down my third when it has confirmed forge expand. Which is why I was saying that you and others that kept on about 'what if you are blocked' don't understand the build. You end up ahead no matter what.
I don't think u understood what I was saying. If your 10 drone scouted a gateway instead of a forge, would you really take your third on a map like TDA? I'm guessing no, cause it would be impossible to defend a 3gate expand push with expos that far apart. You'd have to wait for your lings so you could expand at your natural, but that would then put you behind a 12p/19h, right?
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Against a gateway opener, 11/19 (or 12/19) is better than 15/16.
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On March 09 2012 01:34 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:30 KimJongChill wrote: In my games against toss my natural is always probe/pylon blocked, so going for a 15p/16h means that the thid needs to be taken, but doesn't this cause some significant loss in mining time? No. Because you don't transfer drones there, instead you transfer when your 3rd is up at your natural. Just check the replay I posted.
Okay, I just watched the replay. I feel like you get your warren and evo too late, around 7:30~ isn't that too late to get roaches/spores out in time for zealot or stargate stuff? Also, why do you go lair first, doesn't that delay speed too long?
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On March 09 2012 02:11 KimJongChill wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:34 aebriol wrote:On March 09 2012 01:30 KimJongChill wrote: In my games against toss my natural is always probe/pylon blocked, so going for a 15p/16h means that the thid needs to be taken, but doesn't this cause some significant loss in mining time? No. Because you don't transfer drones there, instead you transfer when your 3rd is up at your natural. Just check the replay I posted. Okay, I just watched the replay. I feel like you get your warren and evo too late, around 7:30~ isn't that too late to get roaches/spores out in time for zealot or stargate stuff? Also, why do you go lair first, doesn't that delay speed too long? Well, that's why I said the state of the game at 7:00 is what matters for your build, because after that, it depends on scouting information (and also, you should sacrifice overlords).
But my feeling is that it's much better to get lair first, and roach speed faster, than to get ling speed faster, in most scenarios.
But timings for spores, and or spines, and or units, spare queen or not, 4th or not, macro hatch or not, etc, that all depends on what I scout with 2 overlords at 7:00 - 7:10 when I move them in to sacrifice them.
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On March 09 2012 01:51 Grayboosh wrote: I don't think u understood what I was saying. If your 10 drone scouted a gateway instead of a forge, would you really take your third on a map like TDA? I'm guessing no, cause it would be impossible to defend a 3gate expand push with expos that far apart. You'd have to wait for your lings so you could expand at your natural, but that would then put you behind a 12p/19h, right? I don't think I am behind in that case. Either way, if the protoss is going for any kind of gateway expand, I always feel ahead anyway. It's much easier to deal with in my eyes.
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On March 09 2012 02:19 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:51 Grayboosh wrote: I don't think u understood what I was saying. If your 10 drone scouted a gateway instead of a forge, would you really take your third on a map like TDA? I'm guessing no, cause it would be impossible to defend a 3gate expand push with expos that far apart. You'd have to wait for your lings so you could expand at your natural, but that would then put you behind a 12p/19h, right? I don't think I am behind in that case. Either way, if the protoss is going for any kind of gateway expand, I always feel ahead anyway. It's much easier to deal with in my eyes.
Fair enough, thanks for the replay (I'll watch it when I get home) and the explanation. I'm definitely going to try 15p out! Last question, do you recommend pulling a probe to stop pylon blocks or can you tell that they're not saving up for that with your scout?
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On March 09 2012 02:23 Grayboosh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 02:19 aebriol wrote:On March 09 2012 01:51 Grayboosh wrote: I don't think u understood what I was saying. If your 10 drone scouted a gateway instead of a forge, would you really take your third on a map like TDA? I'm guessing no, cause it would be impossible to defend a 3gate expand push with expos that far apart. You'd have to wait for your lings so you could expand at your natural, but that would then put you behind a 12p/19h, right? I don't think I am behind in that case. Either way, if the protoss is going for any kind of gateway expand, I always feel ahead anyway. It's much easier to deal with in my eyes. Fair enough, thanks for the replay (I'll watch it when I get home) and the explanation. I'm definitely going to try 15p out! Last question, do you recommend pulling a probe to stop pylon blocks or can you tell that they're not saving up for that with your scout? I recommend letting them build it if they want to. My drone is out on the map. Normally I would respond by building a base in their base.
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Question!
I know you can't punish a forge-cannon-nexus with an 11 overpool, but can you punish a Nexus first? What about a forge-nexus-cannon?
Edit: I would consider sneaking 4 lings into the main enough
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You can definitively push a nexus first with a 11 pool. Just make 6 zerglings (and so expand at 20) and you can for all probes to chases your zerglings.
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On March 09 2012 02:00 Magus.421 wrote: Against a gateway opener, 11/19 (or 12/19) is better than 15/16.
So you just drone scout on 10 then either 15/16 or 12/19 depending on the stuff (or lack thereof) in the main/nat?
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On March 09 2012 03:11 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 02:00 Magus.421 wrote: Against a gateway opener, 11/19 (or 12/19) is better than 15/16. So you just drone scout on 10 then either 15/16 or 12/19 depending on the stuff (or lack thereof) in the main/nat?
I don't think you'll be able to scout them in time to switch to 12/19 with a 10 drone on bigger maps (plus one of the benefits of 12/19 is that you dont waste mining time on a drone scout). Also, the 12/19 build uses the extractor trick vs the 15/16 build which uses the regular 9 OL. These openings are optimized for their respective builds so it will mess up your timings a bit if you ended up switching to a different build.
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On March 09 2012 03:11 BoZiffer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 02:00 Magus.421 wrote: Against a gateway opener, 11/19 (or 12/19) is better than 15/16. So you just drone scout on 10 then either 15/16 or 12/19 depending on the stuff (or lack thereof) in the main/nat? I disagree that 11 / 19 is better but either way, you choose 15 / 16 or 11 / 19 without any scouting information.
11 / 19 doesn't drone scout. 15 16 can (and imho should).
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Vs Protoss: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended (which unfortunately was data that did not include an expo), it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better (and that the 11p/18h doesn't prevent cheese it only helps a little bit with it so the higher count builds are theoretically much better), but I've seen several different numbers on what to do in this thread, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically and from a drone count perspective?
Vs Terran: Conversely, what's the best choice for terran, is there a thread that has figured these things out definitively? Seems like we can define these things in this thread if someone can do a little testing or we might already have the data. Does anyone know what the difference economically and for drone count is between 15h/14p, 15h/15p, 15h/16p, and 16h/16p? Is there a thread on that anywhere? If not, it may be a good thing to test here, even though this thread was about pool first, it would be awesome to get the definitive econ maximized pool first vs toss and hatch first vs terran builds all figured out in one thread!
Should I start a new thread for these questions? I don't want to hijack this thread, but seems to be close to on topic with what the original thread starter was trying to figure out, which is the best opener for Toss, the best opener for Terran is an added bonus if we can figure out either of these things in this thread would be super useful for all zerg players?
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On March 09 2012 04:02 Dr_Hyde wrote:Vs Protoss: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended (which unfortunately was data that did not include an expo), it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better (and that the 11p/18h doesn't prevent cheese it only helps a little bit with it so the higher count builds are theoretically much better), but I've seen several different numbers on what to do in this thread, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically and from a drone count perspective? Vs Terran: Conversely, what's the best choice for terran, is there a thread that has figured these things out definitively? Seems like we can define these things in this thread if someone can do a little testing or we might already have the data. Does anyone know what the difference economically and for drone count is between 15h/14p, 15h/15p, 15h/16p, and 16h/16p? Is there a thread on that anywhere? If not, it may be a good thing to test here, even though this thread was about pool first, it would be awesome to get the definitive econ maximized pool first vs toss and hatch first vs terran builds all figured out in one thread! Should I start a new thread for these questions? I don't want to hijack this thread, but seems to be close to on topic with what the original thread starter was trying to figure out, which is the best opener for Toss, the best opener for Terran is an added bonus if we can figure out either of these things in this thread would be super useful for all zerg players? 1) If you go 15 pool vs protoss you spend all larvae instantly when it pops. There is no reason for going later pool, since it would only mean you aren't spending your minerals as fast as you can. It's the latest, and therefore most economical, pool because it doesn't sacrifice any drone production before pool.
2) vs Terran 15 hatch has been pretty much figured to be the most economical. What you do after that depends on what your plans are. Some go 17 pool 18 gas, which with good drone micro, means that the moment the moment your expansion pops, you can start 2 queens because the pool finish at the same time. Others chose earlier gas, and go 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool for example. Others again delay gas to 23 or so, which allows them to get either macro hatch, or spare queens earlier.
There's no 'right' way to play it.
I haven't tested myself, but my understanding is that 15 hatch is the most economical because you can start 2 queens a bit earlier. I just like it that way.
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On March 09 2012 05:01 aebriol wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 09 2012 04:02 Dr_Hyde wrote:Vs Protoss: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended (which unfortunately was data that did not include an expo), it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better (and that the 11p/18h doesn't prevent cheese it only helps a little bit with it so the higher count builds are theoretically much better), but I've seen several different numbers on what to do in this thread, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically and from a drone count perspective? Vs Terran: Conversely, what's the best choice for terran, is there a thread that has figured these things out definitively? Seems like we can define these things in this thread if someone can do a little testing or we might already have the data. Does anyone know what the difference economically and for drone count is between 15h/14p, 15h/15p, 15h/16p, and 16h/16p? Is there a thread on that anywhere? If not, it may be a good thing to test here, even though this thread was about pool first, it would be awesome to get the definitive econ maximized pool first vs toss and hatch first vs terran builds all figured out in one thread! Should I start a new thread for these questions? I don't want to hijack this thread, but seems to be close to on topic with what the original thread starter was trying to figure out, which is the best opener for Toss, the best opener for Terran is an added bonus if we can figure out either of these things in this thread would be super useful for all zerg players? 1) If you go 15 pool vs protoss you spend all larvae instantly when it pops. There is no reason for going later pool, since it would only mean you aren't spending your minerals as fast as you can. It's the latest, and therefore most economical, pool because it doesn't sacrifice any drone production before pool. 2) vs Terran 15 hatch has been pretty much figured to be the most economical. What you do after that depends on what your plans are. Some go 17 pool 18 gas, which with good drone micro, means that the moment the moment your expansion pops, you can start 2 queens because the pool finish at the same time. Others chose earlier gas, and go 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool for example. Others again delay gas to 23 or so, which allows them to get either macro hatch, or spare queens earlier. There's no 'right' way to play it. I haven't tested myself, but my understanding is that 15 hatch is the most economical because you can start 2 queens a bit earlier. I just like it that way.
Thank you very much for your replies, you have helped my game quite a bit just in this thread!
1) so when do you place your hatch here if you 15 pool against toss, 14, 15, or 16, do you have an idea of which is the most economical or is it just the point where your money gets back to about 200 and you need to send your drone towards natural?
2) I tend to play no gas at all until 40+ supply so I won't worry about the gas timing as it pertains to this build, 17 pool sounds about right though to me as when I go 16h/16p I have enough money for both queens instantly when the expo finished along with the pool, sounds like when you go 15h you just push the pool out further to maybe 17 to equal out to what I was doing with 16h/16p. I would assume that waiting any longer than 17 for your pool would cut significantly into drone production as it pushes your queens and therefore injects out too late?
From what you're saying along with the input from the rest of the thread, seems I will do the following: toss - 15p/16h (please let me know what you think about the hatch timing, i.e., 14, 15, 16 or later?) Terr - 15h/17p
Thanks again for your help aebriol!
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On March 09 2012 05:51 Dr_Hyde wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 05:01 aebriol wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 09 2012 04:02 Dr_Hyde wrote:Vs Protoss: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended (which unfortunately was data that did not include an expo), it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better (and that the 11p/18h doesn't prevent cheese it only helps a little bit with it so the higher count builds are theoretically much better), but I've seen several different numbers on what to do in this thread, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically and from a drone count perspective? Vs Terran: Conversely, what's the best choice for terran, is there a thread that has figured these things out definitively? Seems like we can define these things in this thread if someone can do a little testing or we might already have the data. Does anyone know what the difference economically and for drone count is between 15h/14p, 15h/15p, 15h/16p, and 16h/16p? Is there a thread on that anywhere? If not, it may be a good thing to test here, even though this thread was about pool first, it would be awesome to get the definitive econ maximized pool first vs toss and hatch first vs terran builds all figured out in one thread! Should I start a new thread for these questions? I don't want to hijack this thread, but seems to be close to on topic with what the original thread starter was trying to figure out, which is the best opener for Toss, the best opener for Terran is an added bonus if we can figure out either of these things in this thread would be super useful for all zerg players? 1) If you go 15 pool vs protoss you spend all larvae instantly when it pops. There is no reason for going later pool, since it would only mean you aren't spending your minerals as fast as you can. It's the latest, and therefore most economical, pool because it doesn't sacrifice any drone production before pool. 2) vs Terran 15 hatch has been pretty much figured to be the most economical. What you do after that depends on what your plans are. Some go 17 pool 18 gas, which with good drone micro, means that the moment the moment your expansion pops, you can start 2 queens because the pool finish at the same time. Others chose earlier gas, and go 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool for example. Others again delay gas to 23 or so, which allows them to get either macro hatch, or spare queens earlier. There's no 'right' way to play it. I haven't tested myself, but my understanding is that 15 hatch is the most economical because you can start 2 queens a bit earlier. I just like it that way. Thank you very much for your replies, you have helped my game quite a bit just in this thread! 1) so when do you place your hatch here if you 15 pool against toss, 14, 15, or 16, do you have an idea of which is the most economical or is it just the point where your money gets back to about 200 and you need to send your drone towards natural? 2) I tend to play no gas at all until 40+ supply so I won't worry about the gas timing as it pertains to this build, 17 pool sounds about right though to me as when I go 16h/16p I have enough money for both queens instantly when the expo finished along with the pool, sounds like when you go 15h you just push the pool out further to maybe 17 to equal out to what I was doing with 16h/16p. I would assume that waiting any longer than 17 for your pool would cut significantly into drone production as it pushes your queens and therefore injects out too late? From what you're saying along with the input from the rest of the thread, seems I will do the following: toss - 15p/16h (please let me know what you think about the hatch timing, i.e., 14, 15, 16 or later?) Terr - 15h/17p Thanks again for your help aebriol! I would recommend you watching the replay I made earlier for ZvP.
It's quite specific in what I think is the best way to do it: 10 drone scout, 15 pool, 16 hatch, queen, ling ling drone drone queue 2nd queen, drone (rally to third): you are now at 24 supply, make one overlord, then your third, at around 4:20.
Then I take 2 gas at 42-44 supply, and my third gas at 54 or a bit later. Just my preference.
Of course, it's even better if you copy DRG or Stephano - they are the two Zergs that really knows how to play ZvP.
For ZvT I prefer 15 pool 16 gas 16 pool myself. I like the early ling speed for a variety of reasons - especially being able to punish Terrans that cut corners (I find that in most situations, I can kill the initial 4 hellions fine and then do some pressure and take back map control with some early lings). It's another discussion though.
Of course
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As you can see. Despite of the fact i'm a noob with the 15p/16h, the 11p/18h is behind (with a third at 6:00, and it's worse with a third around 4:00). I don't feel i sucked with the 11p/18h, but maybe it's false.
Can someone make a proper replay for the 15p/16h ?
Note that's for the 11p/18h, i got 19 larvaes so i could make 19 drones. But they can't be ready for 9:00 so i just keep larvaes.
Maybe i'm wrong, but i think the only scenario where 11p/18h is better is when you want to stay on 2 bases against a FFE (hatch first is better, but you can't hatch first easily against a FFE). 15p/16h is really better for a fast third. But i don't know what's going on is the protoss block your expand.
@Belial : Now with 15/16 i hit 70 supply at 8:00 ^^ And i'm still pretty noob with this so i could make better.
So what you are saying is that my criticism was correct?
Don't mean to be mean at all at the start, I just found some contradictions with what you found. If Protoss blocks your natural you take it at 21 with 4 lings from the pool popping, obviously it's a delay but toss has delayed themselves just as much by making that pylon.
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I never said you were wrong.
I try to test with 15/16 with a pylon block. It's pretty hard to test because you need a protoss player to help you and it's can depend of your micro. If i can take my third (at 16 or a little later), your are just a little behind (compare to a normal 15/16). But the protoss is a little behind too, so no big deal.
If the protoss block natural and the third, it's pretty hard to tell what's it better between 11/18 and 15/16. But in the case of a 15/16 with a double block, the protoss clearly disturb his macro. With a 11/18, the protoss just can't block your expands so he (most of the time) don't do anything and just macro. He can't nexus first so he does a normal FFE.
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testing it in a 100% controlled environment n hving everything built at the same time to me is just theorycrafting i like the op's approach of hving realistic target by like the 7:30-8:00mark where each opening uses its most efficient way. n lets discuss along this line
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So we've established that 15p/16h is better than 11p/18h long term, but 11p/18h does not have to drone scout, which should be taken into consideration for these tests as well. It also is not as negatively impacted by a pylon block at the expansion (taking the 3rd base location is not safe due to cannoning, as drones can't defend it there without putting you very far behind). On top of that, it forces a forge/cannon before nexus/gate, which delays the economy and tech of the protoss, or if they nexus first anyway you can typically do even more damage than that.
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On March 09 2012 16:41 oOOoOphidian wrote: So we've established that 15p/16h is better than 11p/18h long term, but 11p/18h does not have to drone scout, which should be taken into consideration for these tests as well. It also is not as negatively impacted by a pylon block at the expansion (taking the 3rd base location is not safe due to cannoning, as drones can't defend it there without putting you very far behind). On top of that, it forces a forge/cannon before nexus/gate, which delays the economy and tech of the protoss, or if they nexus first anyway you can typically do even more damage than that. You don't understand the 15 pool 16 hatch build, but ... you are wrong. And the 15 p 16 h example includes a drone scout so that is taken into consideration. 3rd base location is 'safe' in that if it is finished before cannon, you can defend it, if it doesn't, you can cancel and end up ahead.
Simple fact is, you will always be able to get your 16 hatch down at 16 unless you did something wrong, and with the drone scout you are still far ahead, and if he choses to pylon block your natural and cannon your third, he is ruining his own build so much that he is welcome to it (you just cancel your 16 hatch after cannons complete, and take your natural after killing the pylon leaving him far behind).
And again, check the replay on the last page.
11 / 18 is just worse economically.
11 / 18 does allow you to punish a nexus first somewhat, but that's a gamble you are taking, not a good economic play.
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So we've established that 15p/16h is better than 11p/18h long term, but 11p/18h does not have to drone scout, which should be taken into consideration for these tests as well. It also is not as negatively impacted by a pylon block at the expansion (taking the 3rd base location is not safe due to cannoning, as drones can't defend it there without putting you very far behind). On top of that, it forces a forge/cannon before nexus/gate, which delays the economy and tech of the protoss, or if they nexus first anyway you can typically do even more damage than that.
Why would 11pool not have to drone scout? If you don't realize Toss is doing a proxy doublegate, you are fucked just the same. If toss throws down 3 pylons, you are just as fucked as the lings still won't come out in time (you have to do a 10 pool or earlier to get lings in time to deal with a cannon rush, otherwise if you don't pull drones or patrol the ramp, you will lose just as if you went 16 pool).
And 11 pool is just as negatively affected by a pylon block, I don't know you think it wouldn't be. Also, while there are some interesting timings where an 11 pool can get lings in, you only get 4 lings in, which won't be enough to do damage, and you have to kill about 4+ probes to make it worthwhile, which is extremely unlikely except at the lower levels. You have to realize the damage you are doing to yourself. If you think there are merits in scoutings, a normal 15 drone scout would do just fine with either build.
There's nothing an 11 pool really does, that makes it any 'safer' or 'cheeseproof' than 14 pool.
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On March 09 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote: Why would 11pool not have to drone scout? If you don't realize Toss is doing a proxy doublegate, you are fucked just the same. I really don't see how a proxy doublegate is a problem. You get roaches out much sooner with a 12p, and in the meantime just dance your queen around, move lings in and out, and distract the zealots from doing economic damage by building spines and running your workers around as necessary. This micro battle is certainly winnable. I've held this before without scouting, relatively easily. Even if your second hatch falls, you have roaches against their zealots.... you can either re-expand or crush them with an all-in.
On March 09 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote: If toss throws down 3 pylons, you are just as fucked as the lings still won't come out in time (you have to do a 10 pool or earlier to get lings in time to deal with a cannon rush, otherwise if you don't pull drones or patrol the ramp, you will lose just as if you went 16 pool). I've also used a 12 pool to break through a pylon block by pulling a few drones first to weaken the middle pylon, then the lings were able to finish it off. I killed the cannon with the lings and the few drones I pulled just as it was warping in. Make a couple extra lings behind the initial four to punish the toss and take the game right there, or just drone up and take a huge economic advantage. I think the misconception is that people think you can just wait for lings to beat a pylon block, and that's not true, your lings will be too late.
On March 09 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote: And 11 pool is just as negatively affected by a pylon block, I don't know you think it wouldn't be. Ummm, what??? With 12/19, if they pylon block you, you just build an extra drone and put your hatch down at 20, costing them 100 resources for like a 10 second delay. I'll take that all day... of course most toss aren't stupid enough to waste 100 minerals for such a small delay
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You really can't mess with a 12/19 opening, it's very safe. That said, I'm definitely going to try the 15p, and I guess I'll just have to learn how to deal with pylon blocks with this build.
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With 11 overpool can you sneak 4 lings into the main if the opponent goes forge-nexus-cannon instead of forge-cannon-nexus?
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On March 09 2012 20:33 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +So we've established that 15p/16h is better than 11p/18h long term, but 11p/18h does not have to drone scout, which should be taken into consideration for these tests as well. It also is not as negatively impacted by a pylon block at the expansion (taking the 3rd base location is not safe due to cannoning, as drones can't defend it there without putting you very far behind). On top of that, it forces a forge/cannon before nexus/gate, which delays the economy and tech of the protoss, or if they nexus first anyway you can typically do even more damage than that. Why would 11pool not have to drone scout? If you don't realize Toss is doing a proxy doublegate, you are fucked just the same. If toss throws down 3 pylons, you are just as fucked as the lings still won't come out in time (you have to do a 10 pool or earlier to get lings in time to deal with a cannon rush, otherwise if you don't pull drones or patrol the ramp, you will lose just as if you went 16 pool). And 11 pool is just as negatively affected by a pylon block, I don't know you think it wouldn't be. Also, while there are some interesting timings where an 11 pool can get lings in, you only get 4 lings in, which won't be enough to do damage, and you have to kill about 4+ probes to make it worthwhile, which is extremely unlikely except at the lower levels. You have to realize the damage you are doing to yourself. If you think there are merits in scoutings, a normal 15 drone scout would do just fine with either build. There's nothing an 11 pool really does, that makes it any 'safer' or 'cheeseproof' than 14 pool. You clearly didn't read what I was saying. With 11 pool you don't need to scout until your lings pop and you can be just fine. A drone scout is completely pointless. An overlord by your natural and the standard drone response to prevent cannons is plenty, while a proxy 2 gate is not a concern for extremely obvious reasons. A 14 pool is roughly the same, except it is required to drone scout to get a scout as early as 11p can accomplish with simply ling scouting. The advantage of ling scouting is even greater on larger maps, of course.
As I requested, someone should compare the relative economy/tech of 15p/16h vs 17 Nexus and 11p/18h vs forge/cannon before nexus/gate. Given how close the two zerg openers are all the way until 9 minutes, I wonder if the disadvantage forced on the protoss is even greater than that disparity.
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On March 09 2012 00:56 aebriol wrote:I think you that claim that your hatch 'will' be blocked, fail to understand the build properly. Check this replay for an example: http://www.mediafire.com/?n3capbbj3vlc6xeIt's based on 10 drone scout, 15 pool 16 hatch, queen and 4 lings, 24 hatch at 4:20. And then just econ until 8:00 when you react based off scouting information. Second base would be at third base location, based off a probe being ready to block your natural (which you see with your overlord). I don't think you can equal 61 / 62 supply at 7:00 with 11 / 18. Or? I would love to see how, so I can study that build if anyone can. On the assumption that 11 / 18 don't require a drone scout, but 15 / 16 does in order to confirm forge expand on maps with more than 2 spawn locations (overlord can scout in time on maps with just 2 spawn locations). Oh yeah, funny how I didn't mention the double drone thing cause I was even thinking about it for a bit. (it would definitely be better than pulling drones for doing a hatch-first build, and better than waiting for lings with a later pool-first)
So I just tested 11 overlord 12 pool with 4 zerglings as soon as the pool finishes (15 supply), and 2 gas+ 3 queens done before 7:00. It was not optimally done though, since I just did it in one attempt (and at faster speed). I was supply blocked at 7:00 as well as should/could have build my 3rd hatch earlier.
I had 60/60 supply (supply blocked, hatch finishes about 3 seconds later), and over 300 minerals to build extra stuff when I get supply) at the 7:00 mark. Considering you had 1 extra drone and 50 extra minerals, that puts what I did ahead in net value by about 200 minerals. The reasoning behind this is probably due to your longer drone transfer times from having a further third, maybe having to transfer queen, and the early drone scout/contingency-builder not mining.
Anyway, the reason I came back here (which seems to ironically agree with the post above me), was to mention that a faster pool-first build not only gives good economy, but it will hinder the protoss economy (this has probably been said already though I guess). This game isn't just one-sided. A faster pool first makes it a terrible choice for protoss to go nexus-first (in fact I've won many games from that), instead having to build a cannon before nexus. It also makes them have to pull probes earlier to defend a ling runby (or other harass). It might not be a big difference compared to a later pool, but it is still a bonus that should be taken into consideration.
On March 10 2012 05:36 Sbrubbles wrote: With 11 overpool can you sneak 4 lings into the main if the opponent goes forge-nexus-cannon instead of forge-cannon-nexus? Yes.Even if they go forge-cannon-nexus and you had built 6 lings you can get into their main with 3-4 lings.
On March 10 2012 09:37 oOOoOphidian wrote: With 11 pool you don't need to scout until your lings pop and you can be just fine. A drone scout is completely pointless. I agree that it's perfectly fine to not drone scout, but that doesn't make it useless.
A drone scout is for extra-cautious play and/or extra-cheesy or countering-style play. With a drone scout you can obviously deal with offensive cannoning or gating easier, but that's not the biggest advantage.
The biggest advantage is that you can run a roach rush build or zergling-roach build, or baneling bust, or hidden in-their-base hatchery (probably not effective at the highest level of play, but you'd maybe be surprised how many master/diamond can't deal with it well enough), or regular expand all depending on what you see they did (and what you want to do).
If someone doesn't like any of that stuff, then drone scouting is obviously not something the person should then be doing.
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On March 10 2012 05:36 Sbrubbles wrote: With 11 overpool can you sneak 4 lings into the main if the opponent goes forge-nexus-cannon instead of forge-cannon-nexus?
From my experience : not against a good protoss.
Most of the time i can get 4 zerglings in his main so i can scout gas and tech for free until the first stalker. But a good protoss will block with one or two probes so zergling will die at the canon.
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I really don't see how a proxy doublegate is a problem. You get roaches out much sooner with a 12p, and in the meantime just dance your queen around, move lings in and out, and distract the zealots from doing economic damage by building spines and running your workers around as necessary. This micro battle is certainly winnable. I've held this before without scouting, relatively easily. Even if your second hatch falls, you have roaches against their zealots.... you can either re-expand or crush them with an all-in.
You don't 'counter' doublegates with roaches.... I feel like your knowledge of the game is a bit... off....
You can go hatch first and beat doublegate (i'm not 100% sure if you can hold a 9/9 hardcore doublegate, but a standard 11/12 one you can, you just cancel and still end up ahead because it's so easy to hold). You can definitely hold with a 15 pool. To say that you want roaches, or an earlier pool, against proxy gate, is kind of goofy. And the problem with slow roaches, is that they just get a cybercore and a single stalker, and then 4 gate you while you are on only 1 base, which means you basically autolose.
I've also used a 12 pool to break through a pylon block by pulling a few drones first to weaken the middle pylon, then the lings were able to finish it off. I killed the cannon with the lings and the few drones I pulled just as it was warping in. Make a couple extra lings behind the initial four to punish the toss and take the game right there, or just drone up and take a huge economic advantage. I think the misconception is that people think you can just wait for lings to beat a pylon block, and that's not true, your lings will be too late.
I'm glad this happened once for you, but you realize if the toss is competent and just reinforces the wall, you would never have gotten through to the cannon, and then he just cancels the warping reinforcing buildings (or not) and ends up with basically an autowin, right?
Anyways, it doesn't matter what time you pool goes down, you need to pull drones to deal with a cannon rush. If someone ramp blocks you, you lose. You can hope they are completely incompetent and don't know cancel micro or to reinforce, and then drone drill, but most protoss know now just to lol-addpylons.
Ummm, what??? With 12/19, if they pylon block you, you just build an extra drone and put your hatch down at 20, costing them 100 resources for like a 10 second delay. I'll take that all day... of course most toss aren't stupid enough to waste 100 minerals for such a small delay
Going 12/19 just puts you sooooooooo far behind. I don't know how you can say you'll 'take that all day', you just totally screw yourself over with your build doing a 12 pool like that. And any competent toss will see that the pool was put down before 2:00 (ie earlier than 14 pool) and react by not putting down a pylon, and putting a cannon down quicker at home.
You really can't mess with a 12/19 opening, it's very safe. That said, I'm definitely going to try the 15p, and I guess I'll just have to learn how to deal with pylon blocks with this build.
6 pool is a 'safe' build too, if your definition of 'safe' is to completely fuck yourself over economically to make sure you don't die in the next 2 minutes if you have bronze level micro and macro. But it is completely not safe, if by safe, what you actually mean, is a build that can survive any cheese or attack thrown at you if you respond correctly, and keeps you on even economic footing with the opponent.
With 11 overpool can you sneak 4 lings into the main if the opponent goes forge-nexus-cannon instead of forge-cannon-nexus?
Depends on map, depends how toss responds (ie they can wall off with 2 gates real quick). They have to go forge/nexus/gate on most maps to let the lings in. Forge/nexus/cannon will deny the lings if they react appropriately, like a temporary gateway or something. But the problem is that 3 lings (1 killed by cannon, or maybe not), even 4, isn't going to kill more than 2 probes, and you need to kill like 4+ probes for it to be economically worth it over just a standard 14 pool.
You kind of need to drone scout in ZvP to make sure toss isn't going proxy gate, I feel.
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On March 08 2012 06:25 Berailfor wrote: It isn't the exact same at 7 minutes as a 14p 16h. And pros don't do it because it relies on your opponent blindly going 15 nexus. If they forge at 13 and deny your lings then it was a complete waste to pool at 11 instead of 14. Then the third is later and when either void ray pressure or +1 4gate pressure come in your gonna have a harder time dealing with it than if you would have went 14P. The only reason I see for going 11 pool is if you want to try and get free wins from getting zerglings into the main base.. It is inferior for actually trying a macro game.
And on a side note you still probably don't want to hatch first even against a gateway opening. Protoss can cancel gate and cannon rush. Not cancel gate and cannon rush with zealot pressure (that ones really good). Stalker pressure and almost all of those puts the Protoss in a better spot than if you would have just 14 pool 16 hatched.
Long story short, dont 11 pool unless your gameplan is "rely on Protoss doing something stupid." which is exactly why pros don't do it. They dont plan their build around the Protoss playing risky or doing something dumb.
On March 08 2012 07:39 Berailfor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 06:37 Grayboosh wrote: I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to? You don't hatch first against Protoss going FFE unless you have no clue what your doing...
Say the guy who has no clue about why we're doing pool 11/12/13 in the first place... If we wanted to sneak some glings in, we would rather go for pool before over in most case anyway. The main reason for this build is simple : Deny pylon block and probe block with faster 4 glings. Sure it may not be a better economic build than p14 or p15 or whatever build you're using but ONLY if you aren't blocked. Simple as that.
Btw, overpool or p11 before ovi can really helps you a lot more against ramp's pylon block. There's absolutely nothing wrong doing that build.
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^ I've said this a million fucking times and people don't seem to hear it: 11 overpool will NOT have lings out in time to deal with a ramp block. Why don't you actually try testing it out before saying something that is completely fucking wrong, because I used the stupid build for a year solely because I thought it was ramp-block-proof, and the day I stopped was when someone went ahead and did it. Won't help you at all against it. Either you have a drone on patrol there, or you don't (or, you went 10 pool or earlier).
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My bad yeah, even pool10 before ovi doesn't seem to work against 3 pylon's block ramp.
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On March 10 2012 22:41 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 06:25 Berailfor wrote: It isn't the exact same at 7 minutes as a 14p 16h. And pros don't do it because it relies on your opponent blindly going 15 nexus. If they forge at 13 and deny your lings then it was a complete waste to pool at 11 instead of 14. Then the third is later and when either void ray pressure or +1 4gate pressure come in your gonna have a harder time dealing with it than if you would have went 14P. The only reason I see for going 11 pool is if you want to try and get free wins from getting zerglings into the main base.. It is inferior for actually trying a macro game.
And on a side note you still probably don't want to hatch first even against a gateway opening. Protoss can cancel gate and cannon rush. Not cancel gate and cannon rush with zealot pressure (that ones really good). Stalker pressure and almost all of those puts the Protoss in a better spot than if you would have just 14 pool 16 hatched.
Long story short, dont 11 pool unless your gameplan is "rely on Protoss doing something stupid." which is exactly why pros don't do it. They dont plan their build around the Protoss playing risky or doing something dumb. Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 07:39 Berailfor wrote:On March 08 2012 06:37 Grayboosh wrote: I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to? You don't hatch first against Protoss going FFE unless you have no clue what your doing... Say the guy who has no clue about why we're doing pool 11/12/13 in the first place... If we wanted to sneak some glings in, we would rather go for pool before over in most case anyway. The main reason for this build is simple : Deny pylon block and probe block with faster 4 glings. Sure it may not be a better economic build than p14 or p15 or whatever build you're using but ONLY if you aren't blocked. Simple as that. Btw, overpool or p11 before ovi can really helps you a lot more against ramp's pylon block. There's absolutely nothing wrong doing that build. Actually, I think 15 pool 16 hatch is better against pylon block.
You see he puts it up, you make a base in his base, and have a better economy to build roaches (which you can also use to break down the pylons if you build 1 in your main base).
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I don't understand you problems with pylon blocks. Every time i see a probe near my natural, i send a drone on it. So i never have a "free probe" in my base. So if a probe try a pylon block, i take the drone and do hold position and i pull my drones.
Am i wrong ?
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^ If you just have a drone following the probe, the way the AI works is that the probe can get 3 pylons up very easily. Like he lets you hit it, and then he goes and sets the three down very quickly before the drone can re-accelerate to be in front of the probe.
It's possible to use just 1 drone to follow the probe, but you have to have some pretty godly micro and have to be watching it completely. Even as a mid-masters zerg, I've never been able to stop a ramp block with just that one, following drone at the start of the game, given that I have to set course for my starting overlord, my drone scout, putting down a pool, and trying to get a hatch down.
Even nestea and most pros will put a 2nd drone to patrol the ramp at 16 supply (ie arrives at 17, when toss would have enough for 3 pylons), so I doubt that just following the probe with a single drone would be enough.
The best thing to do is just send that 2nd drone at 16 supply down there. If he's trying to block the hatch, use the 2 drones to nip away at the probe (if micro'd, 2 drones will take care of a blocking probe very quickly, he has to throw down a pylon, which is a good thing for you if you went pool first because it hurts him more than you economically). If you see him try to ramp block or cannon rush, you use that 2nd drone to block real quick. Otherwise, it's a good chance to try to get that hatch down (just a single drone will never get it down in front of a probe).
All you really are trying to do is prevent that 3 pylon ramp bullshit, which is an autowin if toss can get all 3 up (you can't drone drill on about 90% of spawn positions of all maps, and most maps you can't even do it on, and even if you can drone drill, toss can just reinforce and still wins, and even IF you bust through, he still comes out way ahead economically because he's mining and spends 300 minerals, and you are mining with maybe 2 workers at most the whole time). So you can maybe just send 1 drone to hold position on the ramp and just not follow the probe.
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Ok thanks.
All you really are trying to do is prevent that 3 pylon ramp bullshit, which is an autowin
I don't agree. Idra got "pylon blocked" many times on his stream, and he don't loose all the time. I don't say it's balanced, but it's not "autowin" ^^
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^ Please link videos. I don't really consider it viable if a Toss, who knows Zerg is on 1 base, actually lets a proxy hatch or nydus go up, or takes his natural stupidly fast after his successful block.
I'd say it's autowin. But whatever, it's kind of irrelevant, for argument's sake we can settle on 'really fucking far behind'.
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