|
You don't need to take the third at the same time.
The important thing is state of the game (pun intended) when the builds diverges ... that is, likely, not before the 7:00 minute mark at least.
I think that doing the builds up to 8:00 is the latest possible time it matters what the state of the game is.
I'll check it in a few hours and compare your replays to mine when I do a custom
|
^ A lot of times the builds don't manifest improvements until much later. It's weird. check out the 'a look at zerg openers thread' about it. He just shouldn't take a third at all and compare 11/18 and 15/16 as 2 base up to 7:00, or whatever time.
|
On March 07 2012 20:42 Belial88 wrote: ^ A lot of times the builds don't manifest improvements until much later. It's weird. check out the 'a look at zerg openers thread' about it. He just shouldn't take a third at all and compare 11/18 and 15/16 as 2 base up to 7:00, or whatever time. Of course you need to take a third, otherwise you don't need more than 25 drones or so on minerals (that allows the income needed to build overlords and zerglings / drones instantly when larvae pops out of 2 bases), and based off optimal saturation, income changes when you reach 32 drones, which is not too far after 6 minutes.
It's very important to state the goal.
For example: At 8:00 I want lair started, ling speed started, roach warren near done, evo chamber 50% + done, 3 queens, 4th making at my 2nd (or 3rd?), 2 active creep tumors, as many drones as possible - 2 (or 3?) gas taken, because after that moment I will make nothing but units and stop economy focus until I have determined for sure what the opponent is doing. Excess minerals goes to macro hatch for more units, over more drones or a 4th base.
(that's somewhat how I play).
Or you could say - at 7:00 I will sacrifice 2 overlords to scout. Based off that, I will react differently. So I am only interested in being in the best possible economic situation at 7:00.
That's fair as well.
What's important is having the optimal state of the game when your build diverges based off opponents choices and your reactions.
At least that's my opinion.
|
You need to take the third at the same time. So compare 16/15 with 3rd at 7:00 to 11/18 with 3rd at 7:00.
I don't get that. Why ? :s I mean, if you take your third too soon you must cut your drone production (so you got useless larvaes). If you take your third too late, you'll have a mineral excess and this excess could be a hatch (and so, more drones).
If i test with a third at 7:00 (i can test right now sorry), i think the 15/16 (or 16/15) will be far away behind. Because you'll have a huge mineral excess for at least 3 minutes.
It's clear (to me at least, but maybe i'm wrong), that's the "optimal point for a third" is not the same for the 11/18 and the 15/16. According to that, i don't see the point to test the both opening with the same third timing.
I've tried evo chamber, I'm actually the last person to post in the thread, trying to test this exact same thing (when is it best to take a third?). I'm going to work on it a bit, and maybe you can help me bring interest in the idea of using it to optimize economy rather than unit timing attacks, but so far I've had no luck there.
If you posted replays, it would be more helpful. That's all. Or maybe post when you make overlords - 26/28, et cetera. Look over your games and make sure you made them at the perfect times, and identical times. I know the 2nd and 3rd bases pop at different times, but for the most part, it should be same supply that you make overlord.
The problem with evo chamber is that you can't fix check points with a supply condition or "best economy condition". If i ask "3 hatchs" to evo chamber, it will respond with a build order with the fastest third hatch possible. Not the optimal. So i don't thnik evo chamber can help us
I'll put replay, but i'm french, so i'll be at home in many hours :D
And I am biased because I used to do 11p/18h for a whole year, and then realized the build sucked ass. It all dawned on me when someone did a very normal, 13 forge, 17 cannon rush, pylon ramp block to me. The main reason I did it was because I thought, hey, I get more money because instead of going 14 pool and having to set one drone on the probe, and another patrolling the ramp, I can go 11 pool, and just keep both drones mining. The asshole did the ramp block, and the lings never came out in time. They actually popped when the cannon popped, and then they died before taking down the shields. This was on top of me using drones to attack the pylons too.
And I've never lost to a proxy 2 gate when going 14 pool. In fact, I've gone hatch first many times against proxy 2 gate and did just fine. I cancelled the hatch, the pool was on the way, and then I made 2 spines in base and then cancelled the one they attacked when they were 99% done, just like you do when you go 11 pool or 14 pool. Get gas, get speed, win.
And i'm glad to see you saying this. I wouldn't think that 15/16 is equivalent against early cheese than 11/18.
You should really check out the "A look at zerg openers thread". This has all been done. I think 11/18 was discussed in 'A second look...." I'll check that.
|
Hi all, french diamond here.
I use 11 overpool like Magus, but, i take my third quickly on several map like shattered, metalo, antigua, ... because i take the gold.
11 overpool are the best answer against proxy gate and 3pylones on the ramp. in both cheese, you have your zergling in good time, against proxy, you can pop a spine crawler and a queen if you delay zealotte with zergling.
For all people like me who dont have a vrey good micro of drone against cheese, 11overpool are the best responce that i can use.
Pro use this BO on stream and not in competition, ok, and? on competition you play 2 or3 game against the same opponent, not on ladder
|
I disagree, like belial88, that 11pool is better against cheese. See, making a pool on 11 is really bad for your economy, you fix that by getting an early queen which lets you build drones slightly faster. If you use that early pool instead to build early lings to defend cheese, you're cementing the bad economy of the build and your lings will still not come out early enough to make a difference anyway, the difference in "pop time" is actually pretty minor and you will need to pull drones regardless. Proxy gates hit too late, a 15pool can have lings out by then.
|
See, making a pool on 11 is really bad for your economy If i remember well, someone already proved that 11/18 is just a little behind a hatch first (at 15) in economy. So i don't agree with that.
|
11 pool is bad for economy because of the fact that you delay drone production and stack larva. The earlier the drones are made, the more minerals later. The drone made now will have an exponential effect on economy assuming you keep making drones.This could mean an earlier queen, 1 creep tumor. Earlier evo chambers, perhaps a 4th queen, macro hatch. It all depends on how you want to play it out.
|
14pool 16hatch without dronescout is the way to go.
|
On March 07 2012 21:24 flaxxen wrote: 14pool 16hatch without dronescout is the way to go.
I don't want to be rude. But it's a pretty useless post ...
I looked at : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=202464 It's very interesting, but all tests stop at 6:00. And there's nothing about an expand and a third.
I personnally feel that openers are very different according to the situation. The situation here is against a FFE. We can't just test openers alone.
|
On March 07 2012 21:21 agahamsorr0w wrote: 11 pool is bad for economy because of the fact that you delay drone production and stack larva. .
search on this board, there a graphic that explain why you are wrong.
11overpool 18 hatch and 15p16h are the same on economic, and protoss CANT stop your expand. with 15p16h, if protoss are good, u can take your second base on 16 but on 21 ^^ or more
with, 11 overpool, you have a 2 queen quickly and a lot of larva.
|
On March 07 2012 21:35 shoooryuken wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 21:21 agahamsorr0w wrote: 11 pool is bad for economy because of the fact that you delay drone production and stack larva. . search on this board, there a graphic that explain why you are wrong. 11overpool 18 hatch and 15p16h are the same on economic, and protoss CANT stop your expand. with 15p16h, if protoss are good, u can take your second base on 16 but on 21 ^^ or more with, 11 overpool, you have a 2 queen quickly and a lot of larva. This is wrong.
Because you are going for 3 hatch as a response to forge fast expand, you simply take your third base location as your second base. And 11 / 18 and 15 / 16 I do not think are the same on economics, and I aim to prove that when I come home in a few hours.
In the earlier thread that was done for comparing those two, I believe they were roughly equal on larvae, but 15/16 had 300 minerals or so more harvested (which matters for putting down your third base).
|
On March 07 2012 21:38 aebriol wrote:In the earlier thread that was done for comparing those two, I believe they were roughly equal on larvae, but 15/16 had 300 minerals or so more harvested (which matters for putting down your third base).
And that exacty what i am saying in this thread. With 15/16, you have 300 minerals at 4:00. So you can't put a third. With a 11/18, you can't have this excess. Because you have more larvae and you use it to make drones. But you have this excess a 6:00.
If your point is "with a 15/16 you have a faster third", we all agree with you :D But that's not the point here.
|
On March 07 2012 21:17 Magus.421 wrote:If i remember well, someone already proved that 11/18 is just a little behind a hatch first (at 15) in economy. So i don't agree with that. From a pure mineral/drone etc perspective, you can make the case that 11/18 is close to 15 hatch in some situations. However, this is assuming that you're only building drones, building lings after an 11 pool is a much bigger hit on economy than it is for a 14 pool, you rely on the extra drones from the 11pool to catch up. Comparing an 11/18 to a 15 hatch is stupid anyway since the best aspects of hatch first is ignored when counting just minerals and drones. You get massively faster creepspread and a faster second queen, for example.
It's also important to note that there's more to builds than X amounts of minerals at time T. How much you bank at certain point and how this directs the flow is important as well. For example, when doing 14 pool 16 hatch vs P, the flow is perfect. When you get to 16 supply, your second overlord is over your nat. No probe there? You can expand immediately. Otherwise, get a third overlord, a queen and 2 pair of lings for that money instead, then get the hatch immediately afterwards. You have the perfect bank of minerals at the perfect time to make an important choice and will never been in a situation you don't have an answer to.
|
On March 07 2012 18:20 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 18:16 oOOoOphidian wrote: Are you making 4 lings when the pool finishes in both cases? I'm curious how that affects the economy, specifically as 11p/18h only gets any advantage if it makes those early lings, but it also is required to hit very tight drone timings to keep up with 15p/15h. The hatchery getting blocked is one of the main reasons for trying 11p/18h, but as DRG showed it is easy to just run a drone to the third base location instead and the 15h after pool is still essentially guaranteed (though possibly vulnerable to cannon rushes as the distance for your workers to defend it is longer).
Personally I like going 11p/18h simply to scout and deny hidden probes around the map early on, as well as try to force players to go forge and cannon before nexus and gate (though if you only make 2-4 lings that isn't likely necessary, they don't always know if you will make 6 or do a full on all-in with drones etc). It's also quite possible to deny all knowledge of an expansion or gas timings in some cases, which can really throw off a protoss and may make them play overly defensive. Oh yes i forgot, i made 4 zerglings each times. And yes with a 15p/16h you can just take your third if the protoss is trying to block your natural.
They'll block your 3rd and perhaps even put a cannon at the nat+3rd :-)
On March 07 2012 20:48 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2012 20:42 Belial88 wrote: ^ A lot of times the builds don't manifest improvements until much later. It's weird. check out the 'a look at zerg openers thread' about it. He just shouldn't take a third at all and compare 11/18 and 15/16 as 2 base up to 7:00, or whatever time. For example: At 8:00 I want lair started, ling speed started, roach warren near done, evo chamber 50% + done, 3 queens, 4th making at my 2nd (or 3rd?), 2 active creep tumors, as many drones as possible - 2 (or 3?) gas taken, because after that moment I will make nothing but units and stop economy focus until I have determined for sure what the opponent is doing. Excess minerals goes to macro hatch for more units, over more drones or a 4th base.
Out of pure interest: How does your zvp play out when your roach warren is not done by 8 minutes and not your ling speed either, nor your lair? This seems really late.
Starting a roach warren at 7 is pushing it, at 7:30 is really pushing it. at 8:00 seems awkward without ling speed.
|
From a pure mineral/drone etc perspective, you can make the case that 11/18 is close to 15 hatch in some situations. However, this is assuming that you're only building drones, building lings after an 11 pool is a much bigger hit on economy than it is for a 14 pool, you rely on the extra drones from the 11pool to catch up. Comparing an 11/18 to a 15 hatch is stupid anyway since the best aspects of hatch first is ignored when counting just minerals and drones. You get massively faster creepspread and a faster second queen, for example.
I agree. And a hatch first against a FFE is really hard to hold. But here, we are against a FFE. I don't want to compare all openers in a "full drone games no matter what the openent is doing". I just want to compare openers against a FFE. We can compare with the 15h, but it's not very smart i think.
It's also important to note that there's more to builds than X amounts of minerals at time T. How much you bank at certain point and how this directs the flow is important as well. For example, when doing 14 pool 16 hatch vs P, the flow is perfect. When you get to 16 supply, your second overlord is over your nat. No probe there? You can expand immediately. Otherwise, get a third overlord, a queen and 2 pair of lings for that money instead, then get the hatch immediately afterwards. You have the perfect bank of minerals at the perfect time to make an important choice and will never been in a situation you don't have an answer to.
You can make the same with a 11/18. But you can also make the choice to make 4 zerglings (instead of 2) with an extractor trick, kill the pylone and put your expand. After that, the protoss can't know if you'll take a third or take 4 gas at 6:00 to make a T2 agressive style.
|
I tried the different builds 3 times each, and here are my results: (4 lings right out of the bat, same gas/lair/warren timings as op).
11p 19h 73 drones @ 8:30 with "fast" third (will try later third soon) 14p 16h 77 drones @ 8:30 15p 16h 83 drones @ 8:30
I think the difference isn't as huge as some players make it out to be, but there is definitely one, you will sac 10%ish eco @ 8:30 if you execute the builds smoothly.
|
On March 07 2012 21:44 Magus.421 wrote:Show nested quote +From a pure mineral/drone etc perspective, you can make the case that 11/18 is close to 15 hatch in some situations. However, this is assuming that you're only building drones, building lings after an 11 pool is a much bigger hit on economy than it is for a 14 pool, you rely on the extra drones from the 11pool to catch up. Comparing an 11/18 to a 15 hatch is stupid anyway since the best aspects of hatch first is ignored when counting just minerals and drones. You get massively faster creepspread and a faster second queen, for example. I agree. And a hatch first against a FFE is really hard to hold. But here, we are against a FFE. I don't want to compare all openers in a "full drone games no matter what the openent is doing". I just want to compare openers against a FFE. We can compare with the 15h, but it's not very smart i think. Show nested quote +It's also important to note that there's more to builds than X amounts of minerals at time T. How much you bank at certain point and how this directs the flow is important as well. For example, when doing 14 pool 16 hatch vs P, the flow is perfect. When you get to 16 supply, your second overlord is over your nat. No probe there? You can expand immediately. Otherwise, get a third overlord, a queen and 2 pair of lings for that money instead, then get the hatch immediately afterwards. You have the perfect bank of minerals at the perfect time to make an important choice and will never been in a situation you don't have an answer to. You can make the same with a 11/18. But you can also make the choice to make 4 zerglings (instead of 2) with an extractor trick, kill the pylone and put your expand. After that, the protoss can't know if you'll take a third or take 4 gas at 6:00 to make a T2 agressive style. I'm not comparing it with 15 hatch, I'm saying the common argument that 11/18 is close to a hatch first is a useless argument because it's not based on good evidence.
As for 11/18 having the same option as 14 16, I disagree. By the time you make the choice, a 14 pooler is still ahead in both minerals and drones by a decent margin, the 11 pooler hasn't caught up yet. 11/18 just isn't a very good opening unless you build your hatch before any lings.
|
11 pool is behind a 14 pool at the moment you put your pool. It's pretty obvious. But unless you are against a 6 pool, i don't think it mean anything.
|
Why is 11/18 being compared with 14/16 rather than 12/19? Is 12/19 worse than either? 12/19 seems to be the big standard.
|
|
|
|