|
On April 14 2012 05:13 ArcticRaven wrote: Why is roach drop preferred over blings on scvs/lings ? Those have way more damage output, while roaches are a tank unit.
You don't want him to be able to defend with just hellions, because those are the mobile part of his army. Also, killing infrastructure is more important than killing workers. you want to start killing add-ons and factories and refineries, and force him to bring units back to defend it. If he attacks too early (not enough tanks), you can just kill him with mass roach, so it's all part of a solid game plan. If he makes only tanks (not enough thors) you force him to unsiege by dropping directly on his army during the battle. Think of it as a 4th flank.
|
One of the most effective ways to beat a pure mech T whos turtling on 2 or 3 bases is roach drop, that and a large force to the third to snipe is deadly, also you can send ovies in as a divesion to snipe third again with full army, works best if T has a sensor tower in main for drops. but roachs straight up vs an advancing tank line with thors and helions is very tough even if you remax 2-3 times, because after main battle your rally points will be off and T can just kill small packs of roaches rallied wrongly to the mech ball.
|
On April 14 2012 04:47 KimJongChill wrote: I've been thinking that ultras might be better than broods against thor heavy compositions, since an average number of broods (8-10) are barely equal against an equal number thor, but obviously with a tank heavy comp broods are mandatory. Typically I go roach opener into fast third and fourth and spreading a lot of creep and threatening counters while working towards hive.
As Oboe said, Thors are almost worthless vs broodlords.. They do next to do damage to them, and being the only terran unit which can shoot up, if you can catch him without vikings, it's gg.
|
iv done it with muta ling bane when they try an do just marine hellion thor which is what happens sometimes, but other than that iv seen idra do roach prong attacks an teching to lots of broods infestors and corrupters while expanding alot. He makes it look easy so i think once you get on 3 or 2 base check to see if hes going 2base allin and if hes taking a third start harassing alot until you can get broods or ultras. Ive beaten mass thor with mass ultra but it i had to max on ultras again so i dont thing that is really that viable. more ultra ling bane. banes for hellions ultra ling for thor an tank.
|
As a TvZ meching Terran, roach infestor is laughably easy. Grab a large handful of tanks, scan, leapfrog, a-move hellions and thors and laugh. The roaches die before getting close and infestors won't be able to fungal anything of any real value. I cut tanks if there are no roaches because that means muta sling bling or sling infestor, which are easily flattened by hellion Thor. I have the most trouble with the late game brood lord corruptor infestor combination because mech has no solid counter for the brood lords since the ghost nerf. Vikings work, but can be fungaled and beat by corruptors.
|
On April 14 2012 09:06 RJM95 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2012 04:47 KimJongChill wrote: I've been thinking that ultras might be better than broods against thor heavy compositions, since an average number of broods (8-10) are barely equal against an equal number thor, but obviously with a tank heavy comp broods are mandatory. Typically I go roach opener into fast third and fourth and spreading a lot of creep and threatening counters while working towards hive. As Oboe said, Thors are almost worthless vs broodlords.. They do next to do damage to them, and being the only terran unit which can shoot up, if you can catch him without vikings, it's gg.
Both of you are wrong about thors being useless/worthless against broods. Thors are pretty good against BOTH ultras and broods. Sure, lots of broods are good against terrans who go with the heavy tank style, but that style isnt optimal. The best mech style IMO is one with only 4-5 tanks, mass thor, mass hellion, a raven, 2-4 vikings thrown in, and maybe a few banshess. Throw down PDD to protect the vikings and have the vikings and thors target the broods while having the hellions follow the thors. This way the hellions can defend the thors against the broodlings. I don't even remember the last time I lost against broods when going with a heavy thor composition. I lose with mech when I can't defend the roach drop in the main + roach attack at the natural, or some sort of early attack.
|
My ZvT, ignoring he terran build: - 4 queen, no gas until ~44 food - Tech to muta - If he is going mech - make only 12-15 mutas, max out on 3 base with ling roach after that. When close to maxed out, morph most lings into banes (mainly if you have 500-1000 extra gas since roaches and lings are not very gas heavy). Make upgrades!!! Keep the army near the enemy base, hidden if possible. When he moves out (to attack or take a 3rd) crash the army. Also get drops. If he tries to move out slowly (siege tank leap), just drop/nydus his main. - if he goes Marine/Tank - standard muta/ling/bane, but instead of getting over 16 mutas, get upgrades. And ALWAYS attack his army while its moving. If it sieges up, they style is having big problems dealing with it, until 2/2 is done for lings and mutas are at least 1/1.
If replays are needed, tell me, I have 2 games with these 2 types of terran playing against me on a different machine. I'm mid master (this happens when you play 3 games for the entire weekend ).
|
If there are admins here - delete this post Sorry
|
ZvMech seems quite unexplored tbh, but quick third powering into 3 base 4 hatch roach drop pressure while double expanding and teching brood corruptor infestor queen seems reasonable.
|
On April 23 2012 15:51 ckolev wrote:My ZvT, ignoring he terran build: - 4 queen, no gas until ~44 food - Tech to muta - If he is going mech - make only 12-15 mutas, max out on 3 base with ling roach after that. When close to maxed out, morph most lings into banes (mainly if you have 500-1000 extra gas since roaches and lings are not very gas heavy). Make upgrades!!! Keep the army near the enemy base, hidden if possible. When he moves out (to attack or take a 3rd) crash the army. Also get drops. If he tries to move out slowly (siege tank leap), just drop/nydus his main. - if he goes Marine/Tank - standard muta/ling/bane, but instead of getting over 16 mutas, get upgrades. And ALWAYS attack his army while its moving. If it sieges up, they style is having big problems dealing with it, until 2/2 is done for lings and mutas are at least 1/1. If replays are needed, tell me, I have 2 games with these 2 types of terran playing against me on a different machine. I'm mid master (this happens when you play 3 games for the entire weekend ).
if he is making reactored hellions continuously or blue flamed hellions you are not getting his third up while he builds his cc in his base. in 3 base vs 3 base scenario, without upgrading roaches first because you get mutas you will get roflstomped at 200/200
|
personally i like to get a few roachs when his helion numbers increase, then go into grades and drops for roachs aswell as a few banes. In the first drop try to hit the mineral line with banes and use roachs to hit anything else, drop in multiple locations keeping him in his base while going infestors and hive(start a spire when hive starts) and expand alot. add on about 8 infestors and more to broods. With roachs and infestors and making sure he does no run by with helions u shud keep him in his base long enough. ( i find its ok to put up some spines and at your futher expansions for defence).
|
personally i instantly go up to 4 bases (used as macro hatch if he 2 base allins) and research roach attack and armor while getting just a hand full of mutas to force out thors and then use roach drops and get hive mainly for 3-3 roaches. if they take a 3rd too early rallied roaches zvp style do really well because he's been forced into making thors over tanks he can't really defend.
counter attacks are really great when they're out of position and/or move out too early. you basically want to force them to stay at home until he has enough stuff to kill everything you have and everything you remake after and that takes lots of time.
i like going up to almost 90 drones saturating 4 bases and just throwing stuff at him keeping his army as small as possible. it surprises me every time how just loading up all your roaches in overlords and dropping them on his army just kinda kills it. overlords/corruptors/mutas are really good to mess with thor ai also.
super late game broodlord infestor corruptor usually beats mech compositions that don't have a million ravens but i like to avoid that situation if i can because i feel like nukes all over the place while gathering raven energy and transitioning into bc raven viking is actually impossible to beat.
|
I'm not sure if I'm the only one, so far this has worked for me up through diamond... upgraded roach/infestor is very strong if you use neural parasite to your advantage. Roaches/IT can usually tank enough shots that you can pull off a neural parasite on one thor or tank.
Even on small maps like Shakuras I try to keep map control so that when the army moves out I have enough space to presplit my roaches for a good spread or even pincer attack. It makes target firing of infestors much more difficult and lets me get close enough to neural parasite their units.
Once you get that parasited thor (closest enemy unit) to draw tank fire, you can neural parasite even more units and it just snowballs. Usually it lets me trade effficiently with the mech army head-on, as long as I keep my infestors (so burrow is an important upgrade). Even though it usually isn't enough to completely win the game in one battle, it puts me far enough ahead to comfortably go double spire/greater spire for broodlord tech.
|
Most roach/ling or roach/ling/bane timings do quite well against mech openings, and in the mid-game I generally play upgraded roaches ---> Infestors ---> Broodlords.
You can also try the mass ling/ultra/infestor style, but it can be difficult to hold their 200/200 push.
|
On April 23 2012 18:10 Manimal_pro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 15:51 ckolev wrote:My ZvT, ignoring he terran build: - 4 queen, no gas until ~44 food - Tech to muta - If he is going mech - make only 12-15 mutas, max out on 3 base with ling roach after that. When close to maxed out, morph most lings into banes (mainly if you have 500-1000 extra gas since roaches and lings are not very gas heavy). Make upgrades!!! Keep the army near the enemy base, hidden if possible. When he moves out (to attack or take a 3rd) crash the army. Also get drops. If he tries to move out slowly (siege tank leap), just drop/nydus his main. - if he goes Marine/Tank - standard muta/ling/bane, but instead of getting over 16 mutas, get upgrades. And ALWAYS attack his army while its moving. If it sieges up, they style is having big problems dealing with it, until 2/2 is done for lings and mutas are at least 1/1. If replays are needed, tell me, I have 2 games with these 2 types of terran playing against me on a different machine. I'm mid master (this happens when you play 3 games for the entire weekend ). if he is making reactored hellions continuously or blue flamed hellions you are not getting his third up while he builds his cc in his base. in 3 base vs 3 base scenario, without upgrading roaches first because you get mutas you will get roflstomped at 200/200
Not quite. Your mutas can push back the hellions, so you can take a 3rd. If this is "too delayed" for you, just double expand. There is no way he can stop you in the next 2-3 minutes. Also your mutas should not attack or focus so much on harassing the economy. The goal of the mutas is to keep the terran defending his 2 bases, until you are on 3-4 bases and you are maxed out. Also I said that you get 12-15 mutas max. So all extra gas goes for upgrades, as roaches do not cost that much gas. With 6-8 extractors, you will have enough gas to build banelings later on.
Trust me, it works out.
|
I feel slightly silly. Just now, I played a ZvT vs a meching plat. I didn't scout it until I was nearly maxed on muta ling bane... i threw down roach warren and greater spire, delayed, got some corruptors and ~8 BL with infestors.....and tech switched to ultra ling to "counter" the inevitable mass viking. Ended up losing from just a buttload of thor/hellion.
Would the right choice have been to continue massing corruptors and infestors? if i remember correctly, i had 3/3 for melee, +1 air attk and that's it. I had a clear macro advantage -- that's what got me up the leagues so fast :D in general, if i'm sitting at 5000/3000 against thor/hellion/viking, which unit composition is the best? are mass corruptor + fungal actually cost effective vs vikings? oh and queens. I'm tempted to write on my desk "MAKE MOAR QUEENS"
|
^ The whole 'tech switching' thing of bl to ultra doesn't really happen anymore. You can deal with any sort of terran AA with corruptors, infestors, queens, or mass spores as you slowpush.
The metagame recently has started bringing back ultras, but the way they are used now is in conjunction with fast hive, and then ultras on 3 base while you take your fourth and use aggression with ultras to buy you time for broodlords. It's not so much a tech switch, a way to think of it is that ultras are like t2.5 units you get after ling/infestor or ling/bane/muta, then you add some ultras, and then you go bl/infestor.
If you stay on lair tech a really long time, or it's already 4+ base late late game, or you already have bl tech or bl's out, you should just stick to them.
You don't need many corruptors, but if terran is massing vikings, just a couple are good, as well as reinforcing with them. Infestors are the great against them, as is transfuse, and if your creep spread is good and the game is late enough, mass spores slow pushing.
Check out my ZvT guide, the replays in where I am vs mech teching quickly, and the 2 rax ling/bane/muta into extreme lategame.
but yea, ultras are crap against mech. dont ever make ultras against mech.
|
Try playing with filtersc's opening. It feels really strong vs. Mech. Double upgrade roach aggression, mix in drops and voila. Thors gets focused down easier, economy is strong and there are so many roaches that banshees cannot easily deny aggression.
I'm not a big fan of sitting on my ass till the mech army gets strong, it needs to be kept down and outplayed with roach mobility.
|
The way to look at mech is like a puzzle. Mech mainly really work with all parts of it there. Thor, Tank, Hellion + support ( Raven/Banshee, most often.)
If you're capable of making any of the puzzle pieces weak, you've got quite an easy time picking the rest apart. What I will often do if my opponent opens mech is to apply drop play. However, I apply it as soon as my drop tech kicks in! Unlike many Zerg's, I've had an easy time dealing with mech. The point is just to hit it at around the 11 min mark with the roach drop. Trading roaches for mech at this point in the game is perfect.
It'll be harder for him to get out a scary army, and if you've traded even remotely decently with your drops, there's no way in hell he can secure a third. Versus a direct mech style I'll keep trying to trade the entire time until I know my T3 tech will kick in before he can move out. The thought is quite simple. Drop 20 roaches on 5 tanks, see what happens. Run 40 roaches into a 10 tank line and see what happens. I know where we find the highest efficiency. I've yet to experience a Terran having much more than 5-6 tanks or 2tanks and 2 thors at the 11 min mark where my drop hits. I've also yet to lose to mech I've scouted in time.
~ EU mid masters Z.
|
On May 27 2012 11:26 Belial88 wrote: ^ The whole 'tech switching' thing of bl to ultra doesn't really happen anymore. You can deal with any sort of terran AA with corruptors, infestors, queens, or mass spores as you slowpush.
The metagame recently has started bringing back ultras, but the way they are used now is in conjunction with fast hive, and then ultras on 3 base while you take your fourth and use aggression with ultras to buy you time for broodlords. It's not so much a tech switch, a way to think of it is that ultras are like t2.5 units you get after ling/infestor or ling/bane/muta, then you add some ultras, and then you go bl/infestor.
If you stay on lair tech a really long time, or it's already 4+ base late late game, or you already have bl tech or bl's out, you should just stick to them.
You don't need many corruptors, but if terran is massing vikings, just a couple are good, as well as reinforcing with them. Infestors are the great against them, as is transfuse, and if your creep spread is good and the game is late enough, mass spores slow pushing.
Check out my ZvT guide, the replays in where I am vs mech teching quickly, and the 2 rax ling/bane/muta into extreme lategame.
but yea, ultras are crap against mech. dont ever make ultras against mech.
Thank you belial! The tech switch DID fool him (he made 25 Vikings), but that number of Vikings can actually kill 3-4 ultras if he has good upgrades.. I just read your ZvT guide, extremely helpful!
|
|
|
|