I've noticed that most of the discussion on here is about what Blizzard should do to fix X and fix Y.
Due to all of my friends having moved on to other games, I find myself with nowhere to discuss simple strategies or ask questions about the current game. I'm looking for more of a "How do I handle mass early widow mines?" rather than "Widow mines OP, Blizzard please nerf."
So please use this thread to ask questions and discuss simple strategies (not looking for in-depth guides here), and again please refrain from any "future talk" in this thread, ie. requesting nerfs or other changes to the game.
Why does 3/3 air from double spiqre broods and 8 infestors lose to 3/3 mech with unseiged tanks, thors, vikings, hellbats?
Hellbats killing all these broodlings is such a huge difference lol... I had a 160 supply army of pure gas units, i fought on creep, had good fungals, had 10 spines with the attack and he just A+moved and rolled over me . We both had decent splits of air units so splash wasnt the issue.
Hellbat makes mech very strong vs broodlord, deal with broodlings super well and thats the majority of the damage. In the future I might make like 20 supply of banelings to run into the hellbats and clumped tanks/thors. Theyre very supply efficient so that might work out, ill have 3/3 melee anyhow.
So yea be careful when u go brood vs terran hellbats super good, although mines are useless vs brood if you have a few overseers follow ur army.
Best response? is it banelings? Hes a goner if he tries to siege his tanks, i can pull back banelings easily.
On October 26 2012 08:48 TheGreenMachine wrote: Why does 3/3 air from double spiqre broods and 8 infestors lose to 3/3 mech with unseiged tanks, thors, vikings, hellbats?
Hellbats killing all these broodlings is such a huge difference lol... I had a 160 supply army of pure gas units, i fought on creep, had good fungals, had 10 spines with the attack and he just A+moved and rolled over me . We both had decent splits of air units so splash wasnt the issue.
Hellbat makes mech very strong vs broodlord, deal with broodlings super well and thats the majority of the damage. In the future I might make like 20 supply of banelings to run into the hellbats and clumped tanks/thors. Theyre very supply efficient so that might work out, ill have 3/3 melee anyhow.
So yea be careful when u go brood vs terran hellbats super good, although mines are useless vs brood if you have a few overseers follow ur army.
Best response? is it banelings? Hes a goner if he tries to siege his tanks, i can pull back banelings easily.
That's really interesting. I haven't come across this before. Making sure you are attacking the thors, and the fact that hellions are 2 supply, isn't that enough? Do you have a replay of this?
I fear raven viking alot more than hellbats in that scenario.
After watching the game most of my flaw was not pressing the advantage when I could have. Also I had no infestors for the fight in question, it was just after a remax and infestors would have helped deal.
Also 1 fight i was max he was 160 supply i could have kept pushing but i had no spines to back me up, oh well i will changeling scout better awareness next time.
On October 27 2012 06:27 FortuneSyn wrote: What do you guys think about swarm hosts in ZvZ? Ive dropped banelings on them when i encounter it, but almost nobody is going swarm host against me.
Maybe swarmhost could be useful as a stepping stone to ultras?
I think swarm host is really good positionally maybe in combination with spine crawlers, kind of a deathball way to midgame zvz.
Lategame zvz will be insane with blinding cloud, i cant imagine roach+hydra+infested terrans all being melee units under cloud, makes such a huge dif O.O
On October 27 2012 06:27 FortuneSyn wrote: What do you guys think about swarm hosts in ZvZ? Ive dropped banelings on them when i encounter it, but almost nobody is going swarm host against me.
Maybe swarmhost could be useful as a stepping stone to ultras?
I think swarm host is really good positionally maybe in combination with spine crawlers, kind of a deathball way to midgame zvz.
Lategame zvz will be insane with blinding cloud, i cant imagine roach+hydra+infested terrans all being melee units under cloud, makes such a huge dif O.O
How would you deal with drop play using swarmhost?
I've been going roach/swarmhost with upgrades and then trying to transition into some semblance of a Broodlord/Viper/Infestor/Corruptor composition.
My problem is that once Mech goes 3/3, it seems like Thors suddenly become almost impossible to kill, and the Infestors get shredded by Siege fire and Hellbats. Also Raven/Vikings keeps destroying my Corruptors.
What is the late game composition I should be going for here? Should I keep Swarm Hosts in my army for late game? Exactly what proportion of my army should be what i.e. Should I be heavier on the Corruptors and not so heavy on Infestors? Should I not have more than 2 Vipers?
I'm just completely lost on what to do against Terran mech. I have a dream army of Broodlord, Corruptor, Swarm Host, Viper, Infestor but I don't know how to get to that point, nor do I feel like I'm building it right (feels like I'm too heavy on X unit and not enough of Y unit).
I usually wait for 16-20 hosts before I begin pushing out seriously. My goal is to preserve the hosts while I cycle roaches for hydras and look for even or cost-effective trades with the mech army. Always push behind a locust wave with hydra and pull out when the locust numbers thin out.
The hosts force tanks rather than thors, so a sharp transition from hosts to broods frequently catches people off guard. If I remember, I'll sprinkle in some vipers and infestors, but so far I've found that they aren't terribly necessary unless Terran successfully transitions into air play.
SwarmHost's generally defined role is similar to the Broodlord. It lacks Anti-air and generates "free" ground units.
ZvP: They combo with Hydralisk/Overseer or Corruptor/Overseer quite well to snipe the obs of a Protoss. Watch out for Storms/Archons, and I'd suggest splitting your swarm hosts before burrow. The Corruptor is better so push for hive still, although its tempting to just transfer into BL/Corrupter. The MSC spell detection could provide the Toss with enough detection that you'll need to pepper in some sacrificial units as well. "Kamblings" (for ZvP as well) has it correct that your should push behind the wave and look for cost effective/important kills. ZvT: They could provide cover fire for Mines/Tanks but I've yet to see them used to really break a position rather then creating one. (Spines/Creep Colony and with units doing DPS behind the locusts although a composition is as concrete ZvT with hosts). Typically you'll wear them down slowly if contained, and not allowed to flank/expansion kill. ZvZ: The hosts are not so common likely from Banelings, however due to Creep speed being commonly used with Swarm host a Zerg opponent can commonly flank the swarm host with an Overseer. I've yet to see Swarmhost in the lategame ZvZ. Probably since Zerg can choose the BL over the Host late game.
Overall: I think, it'd be cool and although difficult, for the Swarmhost to be used more for Map Control/Vision and maybe even Expansion denial. Since range could hide them from a counter offensive on them. This will begin if people begin use their rally points in unexpected ways and splitting their... for the time being its just a Lair BL /w different upgrades.
The fatal flaws of the Widow Mines are clear once practiced (practice, practice) against. 1. Low DPS (sacrifice a Zergling/Drone, the spore takes 30 seconds to create whereas another rocket 40 seconds) 2. Low Range (Hydralisk can snipe them when detected) 3. 3 second burrow time. If they move outside of your Spore range, just be ready to catch them running back in... that is, if your still waiting on Lair. (Overseer) If you find that the Mines are an early weak spot for you, scout for gas consumption. There is the odd case with Reapers (more common for TvT), but typically early gas (ZvT) would suggest either 'Mech'/Banshee harass (if they'll harass). This means a Spore and a decent number of queens (4-ish) for the Hellion/Mine combination should like end up being a worth while investment.
ZvZ with the Spine Crawler not allowing a runby, this could be the largest change to this mirror match. A "Too Slow" supply depot. However early ling pressure is very common in ZvZ this could change the match up substantially as the Turtle-zerg was rather powerful with the release of HoTS.
My question: Does anyone have experience lategame against a Turtle Zerg? The Viper seems slightly more defensive (albeit overall balanced offensively/defensively quite well as a unit); however it's that along with Spores/Spines the Zerg units are defensively strong.... would early expansions and expensive Nydus canal / Drop play the solution to a turtling Zerg?
On October 26 2012 08:48 TheGreenMachine wrote: Why does 3/3 air from double spiqre broods and 8 infestors lose to 3/3 mech with unseiged tanks, thors, vikings, hellbats?
Hellbats killing all these broodlings is such a huge difference lol... I had a 160 supply army of pure gas units, i fought on creep, had good fungals, had 10 spines with the attack and he just A+moved and rolled over me . We both had decent splits of air units so splash wasnt the issue.
Hellbat makes mech very strong vs broodlord, deal with broodlings super well and thats the majority of the damage. In the future I might make like 20 supply of banelings to run into the hellbats and clumped tanks/thors. Theyre very supply efficient so that might work out, ill have 3/3 melee anyhow.
So yea be careful when u go brood vs terran hellbats super good, although mines are useless vs brood if you have a few overseers follow ur army.
Best response? is it banelings? Hes a goner if he tries to siege his tanks, i can pull back banelings easily.
Yes. I just go ultras nowadays. Ultras are great with burrow charge, and they tear mech armies to shreds if they aren't crazy thor heavy. Also, theyre fun, and i'm insanely happy to see them being highly viable in all matchups now. BL/infestor is stronger, but not against an army with that many hellbats. Toss also always opens stargate in beta, so BL's are useless there. And dont go banes. If they have tanks, making banes is just terrible, terrible damage.
On October 29 2012 22:50 Catatafish wrote: Has anyone found a good use for Swarm Hosts in ZvT? I feel that siege tanks counter them to the point of making them unviable.
Swarm hosts force tanks which allows you to pressure Terran (i.e., keep them from hitting a 2/2 timing) while you go for broods which coincidentally punishes an over-commitment to tanks well. Hydra/host trades fairly well, even if there's a critical mass of tanks, as long as you are using your locusts as bait and pulling out once they're dead.
Example first person vod (cue to the 19 minute mark if the timestamp doesn't work):
On October 27 2012 06:27 FortuneSyn wrote: What do you guys think about swarm hosts in ZvZ? Ive dropped banelings on them when i encounter it, but almost nobody is going swarm host against me.
Maybe swarmhost could be useful as a stepping stone to ultras?
I usually make swarmhosts either for defense while i take a third, or i do a hydra/swarm host/ infestor allin. I cut on hydras and make festors if he has a lot of banes.
On October 29 2012 22:50 Catatafish wrote: Has anyone found a good use for Swarm Hosts in ZvT? I feel that siege tanks counter them to the point of making them unviable.
Swarm hosts force tanks which allows you to pressure Terran (i.e., keep them from hitting a 2/2 timing) while you go for broods which coincidentally punishes an over-commitment to tanks well. Hydra/host trades fairly well, even if there's a critical mass of tanks, as long as you are using your locusts as bait and pulling out once they're dead.
Example first person vod (cue to the 19 minute mark if the timestamp doesn't work):
Theyre amazing against bio, and with infestor support, it does just fine against mech, even tank based mech. And if you push early before its 200/200 v. 200/200 then you win.
I have a strategy where i use them as defense for fast thirds in zvz and even zvt. Its like how a terran expands with siege tanks.
how to get a 3rd base in zvt? if he goes factory you can never know if he goes helions or mines or both. vs helions you could just go mass queen or roaches like in WoL. if you do that and he goes widow mines you are fucked since nothing from zerg outranges them AND zerg has no mobile detection. if he goes both he can protect his mines with some helions so even if you manage to get detection you trade very in efficiently since you have to send in a lot of units because some lings get killed by the helions that protect mines.
so my question is: how to get a 3rd base in ZvT vs factory builds? 1 rax FE into fac into 3rd CC or fac into CC into 3rd CC is just way ahead if zerg cant manage to get a pretty fast 3rd. (basically because all 2 base play from zerg sucks: 2 base roach ling (bling) into 3rd is dead because of mines, 2 base muta is completely dead with mines (or mutas at all are dead because of mines) + swarmhost is REALLY bad vs terra because every single terran unit is okay or awesome vs swarmhost: mines kill locusts, banshees kill hosts, BH rape locusts, helions are okay vs locusts, tanks rape locusts, MMM rapes locusts).
On October 26 2012 00:12 SirPsychoMantis wrote: I've noticed that most of the discussion on here is about what Blizzard should do to fix X and fix Y.
Due to all of my friends having moved on to other games, I find myself with nowhere to discuss simple strategies or ask questions about the current game. I'm looking for more of a "How do I handle mass early widow mines?" rather than "Widow mines OP, Blizzard please nerf."
So please use this thread to ask questions and discuss simple strategies (not looking for in-depth guides here), and again please refrain from any "future talk" in this thread, ie. requesting nerfs or other changes to the game.
1 Spore at natural near the hatch, 1 extra queen at natural hatch, 1-2 spines and 2-4 zerglings (1-2 larva into lings)
*Scout at His natural to see if he exspanded, i useally scout with 13th drone out of habbit, but lings can generally see this *poked up ramp to see his opener, 2rax, reactor? (can mean mines/hellion or combination of the 2) *checking his units, that move
End Note's
Please provide some replays just in case it some style of terran us other hots zergs not faced yet.
On October 31 2012 04:01 Decendos wrote: how to get a 3rd base in zvt? if he goes factory you can never know if he goes helions or mines or both. vs helions you could just go mass queen or roaches like in WoL. if you do that and he goes widow mines you are fucked since nothing from zerg outranges them AND zerg has no mobile detection. if he goes both he can protect his mines with some helions so even if you manage to get detection you trade very in efficiently since you have to send in a lot of units because some lings get killed by the helions that protect mines.
so my question is: how to get a 3rd base in ZvT vs factory builds? 1 rax FE into fac into 3rd CC or fac into CC into 3rd CC is just way ahead if zerg cant manage to get a pretty fast 3rd. (basically because all 2 base play from zerg sucks: 2 base roach ling (bling) into 3rd is dead because of mines, 2 base muta is completely dead with mines (or mutas at all are dead because of mines) + swarmhost is REALLY bad vs terra because every single terran unit is okay or awesome vs swarmhost: mines kill locusts, banshees kill hosts, BH rape locusts, helions are okay vs locusts, tanks rape locusts, MMM rapes locusts).
With early game mine defense, you can use queens and spore crawlers. You need to prioritize creep spread in order to get spores to where they need to be. You also need to push to lair for overseers as you won't be able to be aggressive otherwise.
Swarm hosts are incredibly good against Terran. In straight up fights, the only cost-effective solution to hosts are a critical mass of tanks, something they won't have in the early and mid-games. In particular, if you get into a bad position and get contained, you can use swarm hosts to break out.
On October 31 2012 04:01 Decendos wrote: how to get a 3rd base in zvt? if he goes factory you can never know if he goes helions or mines or both. vs helions you could just go mass queen or roaches like in WoL. if you do that and he goes widow mines you are fucked since nothing from zerg outranges them AND zerg has no mobile detection. if he goes both he can protect his mines with some helions so even if you manage to get detection you trade very in efficiently since you have to send in a lot of units because some lings get killed by the helions that protect mines.
so my question is: how to get a 3rd base in ZvT vs factory builds? 1 rax FE into fac into 3rd CC or fac into CC into 3rd CC is just way ahead if zerg cant manage to get a pretty fast 3rd. (basically because all 2 base play from zerg sucks: 2 base roach ling (bling) into 3rd is dead because of mines, 2 base muta is completely dead with mines (or mutas at all are dead because of mines) + swarmhost is REALLY bad vs terra because every single terran unit is okay or awesome vs swarmhost: mines kill locusts, banshees kill hosts, BH rape locusts, helions are okay vs locusts, tanks rape locusts, MMM rapes locusts).
With early game mine defense, you can use queens and spore crawlers. You need to prioritize creep spread in order to get spores to where they need to be. You also need to push to lair for overseers as you won't be able to be aggressive otherwise.
Swarm hosts are incredibly good against Terran. In straight up fights, the only cost-effective solution to hosts are a critical mass of tanks, something they won't have in the early and mid-games. In particular, if you get into a bad position and get contained, you can use swarm hosts to break out.
well yeah i tried pushing creep with spore and spine, problem is you can only get 2-3 hex forward each time so your lair is ready on 2 base anyway at the time you slowpushed creep to your 3rd.
and no: swarm hosts arent incredibly good against terran. 4 tanks kill 10 SH locusts so 12 supply vs 30 + a lot more costs. and since both are on 2 base its really bad for zerg to trade ~1:2 ressources. he can easily have 4 tanks at 9:00.
the next problem is this: you cant even use the 2 base swarmhosts offensively since you need antiair with them vs cloak banshees and dont have the money for hydras or queens + nydus.
i really dont know why zerg is the only race that doesnt get mobile detection early game like P and T. its just retarded "park 4 helions with 0 apm in front of zerg base and deny 3rd base forever" again but with mines. just make mine available at armory and reverse spore/MsC detection buffs.
btw 3 zergs in top 30 let me think that zerg gets fucked because T and P get strong early game units and Z none...
I've had almost nothing but losses against terran lately,harass from mines and either bio or hellions is rough and terran get pretty far ahead. Any time I ever try to harass or pressure or counter terran just baseraces me and I lose. Only way I can think to effectively fight terran is after I get vipers but I'm usually dead before then or so far behind it doesn't mattter. It doesn't help that swarmhost is entirely useless againt terran either.
Oh well, at least swarmhosts stomp face in zvz and zvp so I'm fine with them being bad against terran its just that it feels like terran has a lot of hard counters to zerg units now and zerg gets no compensation, hellions make lings useless, mines make mutas worthless as well, all I get now is roaches but now terran also has mines on top of tanks so there's like no way to fight till hive.
On October 27 2012 06:27 FortuneSyn wrote: What do you guys think about swarm hosts in ZvZ? Ive dropped banelings on them when i encounter it, but almost nobody is going swarm host against me.
Maybe swarmhost could be useful as a stepping stone to ultras?
I've gone SH almost every zvz, I make a lot of queens and push out , reinforce with hydra/SH. Even when they maake roaches and do lots of counter attacks and do tons of damage I still just retain my SH count and win once I get set up in siege range. But, I think they could win with a decent roach army to do counters and buy time while rushing to broods.
Are there viable builds as Terran to stop a 7 pool on Korhal City? I can't tell if I'm supposed to choose the good karma option and ignore the issue, or if I should choose the tough love option and 7 pool until terrans start using the first supply depot/barracks to sim-city their mineral lines vs early pools.
is there any way to clean up some random placed mines in just a half decent way?
as i see it, i need to first send an overseer around the map, but babysit it so it does not fly into the mines. than i have to either build mutas/hyds only for killing mines, or i sacrifice lings in. and than i can kill them off with units.
so it is entirely impossible to use some automatic routine for it, like in bw? no waypoint stuff possible i guess, the overseer would just die... to be honest i think it is a bad joke, the mines should not shoot overseers, and they should not outrange and 1 shot roaches...
On November 08 2012 07:16 Werezerg wrote: is there any way to clean up some random placed mines in just a half decent way?
as i see it, i need to first send an overseer around the map, but babysit it so it does not fly into the mines. than i have to either build mutas/hyds only for killing mines, or i sacrifice lings in. and than i can kill them off with units.
so it is entirely impossible to use some automatic routine for it, like in bw? no waypoint stuff possible i guess, the overseer would just die... to be honest i think it is a bad joke, the mines should not shoot overseers, and they should not outrange and 1 shot roaches...
Its not that big of a deal, just make a couple hydras to roam around and have an overseer follow them.
On November 08 2012 07:16 Werezerg wrote: is there any way to clean up some random placed mines in just a half decent way?
as i see it, i need to first send an overseer around the map, but babysit it so it does not fly into the mines. than i have to either build mutas/hyds only for killing mines, or i sacrifice lings in. and than i can kill them off with units.
so it is entirely impossible to use some automatic routine for it, like in bw? no waypoint stuff possible i guess, the overseer would just die... to be honest i think it is a bad joke, the mines should not shoot overseers, and they should not outrange and 1 shot roaches...
Its not that big of a deal, just make a couple hydras to roam around and have an overseer follow them.
If I a-move a group of hydras with an overseer following will it kill the mine? Or does it require micro?
On October 26 2012 08:48 TheGreenMachine wrote: Why does 3/3 air from double spiqre broods and 8 infestors lose to 3/3 mech with unseiged tanks, thors, vikings, hellbats?
Hellbats killing all these broodlings is such a huge difference lol... I had a 160 supply army of pure gas units, i fought on creep, had good fungals, had 10 spines with the attack and he just A+moved and rolled over me . We both had decent splits of air units so splash wasnt the issue.
Hellbat makes mech very strong vs broodlord, deal with broodlings super well and thats the majority of the damage. In the future I might make like 20 supply of banelings to run into the hellbats and clumped tanks/thors. Theyre very supply efficient so that might work out, ill have 3/3 melee anyhow.
So yea be careful when u go brood vs terran hellbats super good, although mines are useless vs brood if you have a few overseers follow ur army.
Best response? is it banelings? Hes a goner if he tries to siege his tanks, i can pull back banelings easily.
When facing against mech, i always add a few roaches to infestor/BL. Also, use vipers to cloud/abduct the thors, and the BLs have as long as they want to kill the hellions.
On October 27 2012 06:27 FortuneSyn wrote: What do you guys think about swarm hosts in ZvZ? Ive dropped banelings on them when i encounter it, but almost nobody is going swarm host against me.
Maybe swarmhost could be useful as a stepping stone to ultras?
ZvZ is the only place where i use SH. I use them to secure a fast third base and yes, get that ultra tech. SH are so crucial to zvz because they can swarm you.your opponent fast, and zerg ranged units have short range, so SH is very strong against zerg, because they have no AoE to stop it, unlike other matchups, where SH are useless.
On November 08 2012 07:16 Werezerg wrote: is there any way to clean up some random placed mines in just a half decent way?
as i see it, i need to first send an overseer around the map, but babysit it so it does not fly into the mines. than i have to either build mutas/hyds only for killing mines, or i sacrifice lings in. and than i can kill them off with units.
so it is entirely impossible to use some automatic routine for it, like in bw? no waypoint stuff possible i guess, the overseer would just die... to be honest i think it is a bad joke, the mines should not shoot overseers, and they should not outrange and 1 shot roaches...
Its not that big of a deal, just make a couple hydras to roam around and have an overseer follow them.
If I a-move a group of hydras with an overseer following will it kill the mine? Or does it require micro?
No micro is required, but the hydras need to have the range upgrade to outrange the mines. Just try not to bring the overseer in front of the hydralisk.
On October 27 2012 06:27 FortuneSyn wrote: What do you guys think about swarm hosts in ZvZ? Ive dropped banelings on them when i encounter it, but almost nobody is going swarm host against me.
Maybe swarmhost could be useful as a stepping stone to ultras?
ZvZ is the only place where i use SH. I use them to secure a fast third base and yes, get that ultra tech. SH are so crucial to zvz because they can swarm you.your opponent fast, and zerg ranged units have short range, so SH is very strong against zerg, because they have no AoE to stop it, unlike other matchups, where SH are useless.
Yea ironically ZvZ is where I tend to not go swarm hosts, but mostly because it gives me a chance to learn how to break them. Overpowering with roach/hydra/infestor flanks or banelings seems to work very well, moreso than the other MUs.
On November 08 2012 07:16 Werezerg wrote: is there any way to clean up some random placed mines in just a half decent way?
as i see it, i need to first send an overseer around the map, but babysit it so it does not fly into the mines. than i have to either build mutas/hyds only for killing mines, or i sacrifice lings in. and than i can kill them off with units.
so it is entirely impossible to use some automatic routine for it, like in bw? no waypoint stuff possible i guess, the overseer would just die... to be honest i think it is a bad joke, the mines should not shoot overseers, and they should not outrange and 1 shot roaches...
Its not that big of a deal, just make a couple hydras to roam around and have an overseer follow them.
If I a-move a group of hydras with an overseer following will it kill the mine? Or does it require micro?
No micro is required, but the hydras need to have the range upgrade to outrange the mines. Just try not to bring the overseer in front of the hydralisk.
does not really sound reasonable. queens should be much better, so you dont need hyd den and no range up. and queens do not get 1 shoted, can heal and spread creep and cost no gas....
did anyone play some swarmhost+viper blinding cloud vs terran mech or protoss death balls? i think it should be really really strong, i just tested a bit around in unit tester. vs terran you can shut down the tanks easily this way. vs protoss blinding cloud is very interesting in my opinion, especially because the attacking colossi will move forward automatically and destroy any forcefields themselves... would be really interesting to see stuff like that in action.
hey, i need help beating Terran in ZvT ... Terran just goes Viking and Widdow mine, Tons and tons of widdow mines. Because of the Vikings i have no detection eccept for sporecrawlers and the widdow mines kil EVERYTHING... I played a 1 hour long game in wich i tried Broodlord corruptor infestor, wich got obliterated, i tried ultras, swarm hosts, Zergling Baneling, Roaches, all got obliterated. Hydras seemed to work best but his vikings picking off my Overseers made this fail aswell.
I feel like there is literaly nothing, no unit compositon, that can beat this simple midgame composition. Enyone having to deal with this aswell? Help?
Edit: After more games vs this i found my Misstake, I opened Mutas vs this and thus his Widdow mine numbers got out of hand. Should´ve just started with Swarm hosts to slowly push hi back and use spores for detection.
On November 08 2012 07:16 Werezerg wrote: is there any way to clean up some random placed mines in just a half decent way?
as i see it, i need to first send an overseer around the map, but babysit it so it does not fly into the mines. than i have to either build mutas/hyds only for killing mines, or i sacrifice lings in. and than i can kill them off with units.
so it is entirely impossible to use some automatic routine for it, like in bw? no waypoint stuff possible i guess, the overseer would just die... to be honest i think it is a bad joke, the mines should not shoot overseers, and they should not outrange and 1 shot roaches...
Its not that big of a deal, just make a couple hydras to roam around and have an overseer follow them.
If I a-move a group of hydras with an overseer following will it kill the mine? Or does it require micro?
No micro is required, but the hydras need to have the range upgrade to outrange the mines. Just try not to bring the overseer in front of the hydralisk.
does not really sound reasonable. queens should be much better, so you dont need hyd den and no range up. and queens do not get 1 shoted, can heal and spread creep and cost no gas....
did anyone play some swarmhost+viper blinding cloud vs terran mech or protoss death balls? i think it should be really really strong, i just tested a bit around in unit tester. vs terran you can shut down the tanks easily this way. vs protoss blinding cloud is very interesting in my opinion, especially because the attacking colossi will move forward automatically and destroy any forcefields themselves... would be really interesting to see stuff like that in action.
What is that even supposed to mean? "doesn't sound reasonable"? Lol, ok so you're too stingy to build a unit you're uncomfortable with to fight against another unit? Hmmmmmmkay, I think it's likely you who is unreasonable.
What is that even supposed to mean? "doesn't sound reasonable"? Lol, ok so you're too stingy to build a unit you're uncomfortable with to fight against another unit? Hmmmmmmkay, I think it's likely you who is unreasonable.
are you kidding? i am unreasonable? i just gave 6 reasons why queens should be definetly better than hydras for that job, and you gave no single counter argument?! And of course i am too "stingy" to build a unit i think is suboptimal against another unit. that´s how zerg is played: as greedy is possible!
How come nobody here posts replays? You guys are making mines sound like the coming of the apocalypse, yet I've had trouble doing anything significant with them, unless I get lucky, or the other guy is sloppy as hell.
I'd really like to see what these other terrans are doing.
What is that even supposed to mean? "doesn't sound reasonable"? Lol, ok so you're too stingy to build a unit you're uncomfortable with to fight against another unit? Hmmmmmmkay, I think it's likely you who is unreasonable.
are you kidding? i am unreasonable? i just gave 6 reasons why queens should be definetly better than hydras for that job, and you gave no single counter argument?! And of course i am too "stingy" to build a unit i think is suboptimal against another unit. that´s how zerg is played: as greedy is possible!
Queens can work but you're likely only going to be clearing 1 main route with them due to their speed you can't get any map control and clear out alternate pathways. If you're just clearing up one main path down down the center of the map to move through go ahead and use Queens, be my guest. If you are building Hydras you are going to be getting the range upgrade so why not use them to clear out mines? Hydras are plenty viable in HOTS so if you should choose to go that way then Hydras will be more effective than Queens, hence why you saying Hydras are "unreasonable" makes no sense.
Probably a dumb question, but as a BETA key holder, what I can do to help the HOTS team the most? I probably can't come up with anything to make the game better... so should I just play a lot? When I play should I try to use as many new HOTS units as possible? Or do my games even help?
On November 14 2012 01:01 stecman wrote: Probably a dumb question, but as a BETA key holder, what I can do to help the HOTS team the most? I probably can't come up with anything to make the game better... so should I just play a lot? When I play should I try to use as many new HOTS units as possible? Or do my games even help?
The point of the beta is to simply play. When you encounter bugs, post them on the forums. They're automatically collecting statistics on games, so you just need to play them to fulfill your role. Also engage in (rational) discussion about the new units, how you feel balance is, etc., but do so informed by your first-hand experience.
On November 13 2012 04:56 AbstractGG wrote: Queens can work but you're likely only going to be clearing 1 main route with them due to their speed you can't get any map control and clear out alternate pathways. If you're just clearing up one main path down down the center of the map to move through go ahead and use Queens, be my guest. If you are building Hydras you are going to be getting the range upgrade so why not use them to clear out mines? Hydras are plenty viable in HOTS so if you should choose to go that way then Hydras will be more effective than Queens, hence why you saying Hydras are "unreasonable" makes no sense.
well if you play some special style with hydra, of course you can use them if you have them anyway, but usually it costs just a lot to build hyds just to clean some mines, which you can clean with queens too, while saving about 400 gas. if you make speed upgrade for hyds too its even more gas, than you really have to use them somehow too (and if you do not, queens are just about as fast as the unupgraded hyds at least on creep). against mech this may work with swarmhosts (then SHs could clean mines just the same) against bio i cannot imagine that hydras are any good, even with speed upgrade in HOTS.
I've not seen hydras work in a direct combat scenario and only really work like mutas or lings both of which are cheaper and more sturdy , I've been attempting play with them regulars less and I just die to direct base push, even if its food adv from my view,
I'ld suggest zergs doing 2base muta long to obtain 3rd an possible 4th, massing swarmhost to defend a push but generally you still need brood lords just straight up not die and push so you can retake 4th maybe a 5th.
Q. Is swarm host pop 3? I seem to supply block quite a lot compared to say roaches? Or am I just bad macro
thats a tough one. especially if he adds 20 scvs to autorepair thors and has a 160 supply army thx to mass mules.
- you will need to get rid of swarmhosts (just dont build any of those in ZvT, they suck) because BLs are so much better since their attack dont have to travel towards the opponent (no locust will arrive).
- add queens for transfuses
- add 4 viper for blinding cloud
then: attack with spreaded BLs and non clumped corruptors (this is really hard since they clump all the time). after that throw in a lot of IT but keep some fungals. transfuse. blinding cloud + fungals on thors and vikings (its important to do both since he otherwise just moves out of cloud). transfuse and fungal/IT.
if he has scvs be sure to kill them with a fungal. focus fire thors with BLs so they cant be outrepaired.
thats a lot to do but if you have the apm you should be able to fight the mech deathball. you wont crush it but you will trade and since you hopefully have a better economy will slowly win the game ^^
Actually, against the composition that bluQ described, swarm hosts are great as long as you maximize your locust waves (e.g., punishing a push by burrow-spawn locust-unburrow play). You really need tanks to parry locusts, so hosts force tanks which in turn fare poorly against brood lords.
On November 16 2012 01:02 Kambing wrote: Actually, against the composition that bluQ described, swarm hosts are great as long as you maximize your locust waves (e.g., punishing a push by burrow-spawn locust-unburrow play). You really need tanks to parry locusts, so hosts force tanks which in turn fare poorly against brood lords.
He ofc started with some tanks but over the course of the game didn't rebuild and I think Swarmhosts are to supply heavy to max on them.
Broodlord / Infestor / Corruptor with a healthy economy backing it is unbeatable by Terran, and none of their new units address that issue. Maybe you clumped all of your corruptors in one spot repeatedly, or maybe you tried to ram the enemy with your Infestors. We really do need a replay.
I too am having trouble dealing with mass viking/raven/thor/BC, he uses widow mines + hellbats + tanks to turtle while slowly taking map. Any suggestions?
On November 16 2012 07:52 MayZerG_UK wrote: I too am having trouble dealing with mass viking/raven/thor/BC, he uses widow mines + hellbats + tanks to turtle while slowly taking map. Any suggestions?
On November 18 2012 07:12 EvanC wrote: How do I deal with mothership core pressure by Protoss while maintaining an economic advantage?
Every game I've played so far against Protoss has been Mship Core pressure with an expansion behind it
i assume you are talking about a gateway first build and 2 zealot + MsC pressure?
first of all take your first 4 lings to scout if he goes zealot zealot MsC, zealot sentry or zealot stalker. vs zealot zealot MsC you need 6 lings + your 2 queens. its important all your units target one zealot, then the second zealot and then the MsC. the zealots do way more DPS than the MsC so focus them down first and dont let your queen with the transfuse die.
On November 18 2012 06:22 nonsequitur wrote: What is the best way to deal with Widow Mines? Roaches barely outrange it and the terran can just keep kiting them to the mines.
roaches dont outrange them at all. in fact there is no unit that outranges widow mines for the first 10 minutes of the game.
so what i found is best to deal with them is to just go spore + spines. if you scout a factory delay your gas but opt for less queens and more spines + 1 spore per mineral line. that way you will also be safe vs helions and a possible banshee follow up.
right now i go for a 4 queen gasless opening, take the 3rd base at 45 supply + creep to 3rd and add 2 spines (not sure about this, maybe 1 spine and 3 queens is enough) and 1 spore vs 1 rax FE into factory. spore goes into mineral line natural, both spines + the 2 extra queens in front of your natural so they hit the mines if he tries to walk by.
vs gas into factory openings i go 4 queen gasless and add 2 spines + 1 spore without taking the fast 3rd. not sure yet how to continue after that. maybe best thing is to just take 2 or 3 gases, build a roach warren + 1 more spore and keep creeping + spore/spine pushing to the 3rd and take it or dont take gases but add extra spores/spines and take the 3rd.
On November 18 2012 06:22 nonsequitur wrote: What is the best way to deal with Widow Mines? Roaches barely outrange it and the terran can just keep kiting them to the mines.
In the early game, the standard queen opening deals well with it. Spread creep aggressively and use spore crawlers to push back mine contains.
When it gets to the mid-game, it boils down to making multiple overseers and micro'ing them to spot where mines are without having them eat it (2 mine shots kill an overseer).
Hmm, thanks for the replies. Next question: How are you guys using the swarm host and viper? In the ~15 games or so I've played I don't really find them to be all that good. I always revert to BL/Corrupter/Infestor late game with maybe 1 or 2 vipers sprinkled in for blinding cloud.
How do you guys deal with mines + bio? They just burrow their mines near the third, run in with bio, if you try to chase they just run back to the mines and just destroy every single unit that follows.
Mutas are ridiculousy bad now since the mines outrange them, lings and banelings clump up and die. Does this mean that I have to turtle on 3 base with infestors every ZvT?
On November 16 2012 07:52 MayZerG_UK wrote: I too am having trouble dealing with mass viking/raven/thor/BC, he uses widow mines + hellbats + tanks to turtle while slowly taking map. Any suggestions?
That also, had one game where I tried everything from roach drops to 2-3 times remax on 5/3 ultras, taking down 3 bases and half his production but he just got to raven bc viking and nothing could touch it.
On November 18 2012 23:52 NeonFox wrote: How do you guys deal with mines + bio? They just burrow their mines near the third, run in with bio, if you try to chase they just run back to the mines and just destroy every single unit that follows.
Mutas are ridiculousy bad now since the mines outrange them, lings and banelings clump up and die. Does this mean that I have to turtle on 3 base with infestors every ZvT?
On November 16 2012 07:52 MayZerG_UK wrote: I too am having trouble dealing with mass viking/raven/thor/BC, he uses widow mines + hellbats + tanks to turtle while slowly taking map. Any suggestions?
That also, had one game where I tried everything from roach drops to 2-3 times remax on 5/3 ultras, taking down 3 bases and half his production but he just got to raven bc viking and nothing could touch it.
I've never see it yet on the ladder, but basically, i would go hydras/roach. They are not so bad against bio with infestor support, and dont die stupidily fast to the mines if roaches are tanking them.
Actually, SH/Hydra/Roach/Infestor is a good composition. You need 3/4 bases, but its not so hard to get nowadays.
Broodlord / Infestor / Corruptor with a healthy economy backing it is unbeatable by Terran, and none of their new units address that issue. Maybe you clumped all of your corruptors in one spot repeatedly, or maybe you tried to ram the enemy with your Infestors. We really do need a replay.
Hi guys, i noticed that when building or repositioning spine crawlers, the attack range isnt displayed. is that how it's supposed to be in the HotS beta or is it an issue with my settings? because i don't remember having to edit any setting options for that in WoL...
One last exam this week before Turkey break. I'm heading over to a friend's house and we're bootcamping the shit out of HotS. I'm gonna try to work out some solid BOs for myself and share it with you guys to see what you all think.
Since I've installed the beta I've been mainly using the same old BO's we have in WoL, but I think with the SH, Viper, Ultra charge, Hydra speed... I think that it's safe to say there's more room in variation for our gas timings. Has anyone tried anything like 2 - 3 gas @ 5 min for a quicker lair? or EVEN QUICKER? Usually in ZvT and ZvP I go for gas around 6 - 7 min (months old meta game in mind tho) but I feel like rushing out SH might be viable... 12 min hive is probably even stronger now too.
So I don't know about other zerg's here but last season I was GM in hots beta and this season im masters but I am having a ridiculously hard time vs Terran mech, I have been trying all kinds of compositions, and while the swarm hosts delay mech from hitting your bases for a long time which is good, swarm hosts take up a lot of supply so I end up not being able to kill the mech army and then they just make battle cruisers lol, and then in the late game BC, Thor, Widowmine, tanks, battle hellions, ravens, vikings...the Ravens point defense drone really makes things even more difficult for zerg in ZvT, I feel like Terran is even more ridiculously strong then they were in the beta of WOL where there was the 5rax reaper into marauder / marine all in.
What is the best opening composition? I feel like Roach hydra to deflect the widowmines, hellions, banshee, while you expand then into swarmhost with infestor, then eventually into broodlords, but I am beginning to feel like BL tech is pretty pointless if all the terrans are just going BC with vikings and ravens ect, a lot of air units which BL are pointless vs, so maybe it would just be better to skip Broodlords all together when you know terran is going to go air...I'd like to hear some other Zerg's point of views on the best openings and best way to win vs terran mech in ZvT, because 90+ % of all ZvT I play the terran goes mech and I lose.
Don't build hydralisks. They're almost as BM as scouts. Zone out mines with a spore + spine, and feed lings to discharge mines before clearing them out.
How are you opening? Are you having trouble taking a third somehow? You really, really need to give us a replay.
You should be aiming for Broodlord / Infestor, since it still shuts down Terran super hard. Vipers should only be used as a stop-gap to hold off pre-hive timing pushes, since they build super fast and don't take too long to juice up. Don't bother being aggressive before you have broods, since mines are not fun to deal with when they're in front of tanks.
is it just me or are swarmhost and viper pretty bad? I have no idea how i should implement then in my army without giving up something else and better. swarmhost instead of infestors seems bad to me, viper instead of bl too
viper is an awesome unit but dies way too easy and hivetech might be too late. they need at least 40 or so more hp. even the mutaspeed oracle has 160 hp and the "armored" stat of vipers makes them die even faster because everything does extra damage to them.
SH is very good in midgame ZvP and ZvZ but is way too expensive. you will need to go completely all in with SHs because they take all your minerals AND gas AND the upgrade is 200 200 and 120 (!!) seconds, so a lot of time you have a shitty unit for which you need to use all your ressources. they need to adjust their costs to sth. like 150/75 and 2 supply so they are actually useful in later game stages. and they suck overall in ZvT since basically every T unit is good vs SHs. dont know how to fix them ZvT. maybe the cheaper 2 supply hosts makes it more viable to do more multipronged attacks which would make them better vs tanks etc.
I've been having success vs mech via Wol roach max out to take 4th gas to get brood lords basically roaches can tank tank from mines and siege and generally before next reload your be in face of siege tanks, remember mines do friendly fire. Just removed when u got brood lord and infest or to bring overseers.
i was trying a ling/infestor into viper/ultra style and the widowmines are such a fucking pain in the ass to deal with. you can't attack into a terran army because they'll have mines under the army and you can't kill them with your melee army?
help please, im getting insanely frustrated with all this....
If I'm going roach hydra viper in ZvP should I be getting my infestation pit or spire first?
I open roach into hydra at lair tech and then (obviously) I want to transition to hive and vipers. I know im going to need corruptors for collosi, but I need the infestation pit for hive. Plus swarm hosts seem to be a pretty strong addition to the comp.
Im pretty sure Im weakest when morphing hive because 1) I dont have hydra speed 2) I dont have vipers. Which allows me to play safer so I can get the other tech building after? Infestation pit tech or Spire tech?
On December 06 2012 01:43 ultrakiss wrote: If I'm going roach hydra viper in ZvP should I be getting my infestation pit or spire first?
I open roach into hydra at lair tech and then (obviously) I want to transition to hive and vipers. I know im going to need corruptors for collosi, but I need the infestation pit for hive. Plus swarm hosts seem to be a pretty strong addition to the comp.
Im pretty sure Im weakest when morphing hive because 1) I dont have hydra speed 2) I dont have vipers. Which allows me to play safer so I can get the other tech building after? Infestation pit tech or Spire tech?
You don't need corruptors for colossi. Vipers work very well vs this just get infestation pit first and go hive. I am having good success with this atm.
On December 06 2012 10:39 ultrakiss wrote: thank you blade55555. Is this because the collosus count wont get high enough to roll me if I go straight hive?
It actually takes the same time to morph a hive and make a viper as it does to build a spire and make a corruptor (100 + 40s). The viper has to chomp on a building for an extra couple of seconds to have the energy to abduct, but that's not that big of a deal.
Thanks guys. I just beat my first GM (also my first Masters) opponent ever using this advice Not that beta rank is that indicative of anything, but Im still super pumped
Has anyone tried going muta vs. T recently? I feel like widow mines make it way too risky to be aggressive with them, kind of killing their purpose. Sure you might pick off that depot, or you might just lose 10 mutas to a clump of widow mines.
EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, what real viable strategies do we have against T now? Ling / Hydra to clear out mines? Might be ok with lair speed. Pure mutas vs mines seem like a lost cause. Infestors severely nerfed. I'm kind of at a loss for mid game strategies.
I'm at a bit of a loss against Terran right now. Playing against mech is tough, but I have a pretty good idea of what to do. However, I just have no idea how to handle bio and bio-mech.
Between stronger Reapers, Hellbats, Widow Mines and extra fast Medivacs, Terran early game has become a lot stronger, while all we got is the ability to make Spores without an Evo. Therefore I don't think fast gasless 3rd base is viable any more, whereas Terran can go fast 3 Orbitals even more easily thanks to the buffs to their early game. Am I right in this assessment, or is there some way to make fast 3rd base viable in HotS or to reliably punish fast 3 OC?
But even if I make it out of the early game in decent shape, I have no idea what to go for. Roach based compositions are just ineffective against bio and the new Medivac upgrade makes it even worse. Muta Ling Bling seems really weak now because Widow Mines make Muta harassment much more difficult (and they're also really good against Lings and Banes) and Lings just melt away if the Terran makes some Hellbats. Ling Infestor midgame again suffers from Lings getting easily roasted and Infestors were heavily nerfed.
This is not meant as a balance complaint, I'm just honestly at my wits end with this matchup. I had trouble with HotS ZvT even before the last patch, but now it just feels like late WoL beta all over again. Anyone have any advice on how to play this matchup against pure bio or bio-mech?
On December 09 2012 08:53 Drunken.Jedi wrote: I'm at a bit of a loss against Terran right now. Playing against mech is tough, but I have a pretty good idea of what to do. However, I just have no idea how to handle bio and bio-mech.
Between stronger Reapers, Hellbats, Widow Mines and extra fast Medivacs, Terran early game has become a lot stronger, while all we got is the ability to make Spores without an Evo. Therefore I don't think fast gasless 3rd base is viable any more, whereas Terran can go fast 3 Orbitals even more easily thanks to the buffs to their early game. Am I right in this assessment, or is there some way to make fast 3rd base viable in HotS or to reliably punish fast 3 OC?
But even if I make it out of the early game in decent shape, I have no idea what to go for. Roach based compositions are just ineffective against bio and the new Medivac upgrade makes it even worse. Muta Ling Bling seems really weak now because Widow Mines make Muta harassment much more difficult (and they're also really good against Lings and Banes) and Lings just melt away if the Terran makes some Hellbats. Ling Infestor midgame again suffers from Lings getting easily roasted and Infestors were heavily nerfed.
This is not meant as a balance complaint, I'm just honestly at my wits end with this matchup. I had trouble with HotS ZvT even before the last patch, but now it just feels like late WoL beta all over again. Anyone have any advice on how to play this matchup against pure bio or bio-mech?
My expireance is that the mass queen expand still deals with most of the threats terran has in the early game. If T gets Banshees or mines you ofc. need about 1 spore per expansion. I did not tryed it out since the last patch, but I think its thil viable.
How are you guys dealing with spider mines early game? I am finding that I can't even compete vs terran because spider mines have so much map control and deal so much damage. What unit am I supposed to use? I tried teching to hydras, but they just put me too far behind because of how gas intense they are.
On December 09 2012 10:39 SoFrOsTy wrote: How are you guys dealing with spider mines early game? I am finding that I can't even compete vs terran because spider mines have so much map control and deal so much damage. What unit am I supposed to use? I tried teching to hydras, but they just put me too far behind because of how gas intense they are.
It depends if it is gas first mines or mines after a rax expand. I'm not sure about the first but you can deal pretty easily with the later. In fact I'm happy if I see mines coming early, it means the reactor factory time has not been used for hellions and that banshees are delayed. You can build less lings because of this, a single spore at the ramp and a single one at the third (if going for early third) and a sacrificial ling should be enough to clear the way for the queens (considering 4 queen opener, 2 queens clear mines decently fast).
It's important to clear them as soon as possible, or else they can kite once hellions and banshees come.
On December 09 2012 10:39 SoFrOsTy wrote: How are you guys dealing with spider mines early game? I am finding that I can't even compete vs terran because spider mines have so much map control and deal so much damage. What unit am I supposed to use? I tried teching to hydras, but they just put me too far behind because of how gas intense they are.
It depends if it is gas first mines or mines after a rax expand. I'm not sure about the first but you can deal pretty easily with the later. In fact I'm happy if I see mines coming early, it means the reactor factory time has not been used for hellions and that banshees are delayed. You can build less lings because of this, a single spore at the ramp and a single one at the third (if going for early third) and a sacrificial ling should be enough to clear the way for the queens (considering 4 queen opener, 2 queens clear mines decently fast).
It's important to clear them as soon as possible, or else they can kite once hellions and banshees come.
I am sorry, I should have been more clear. Past the early game.. I am finding most GM's I am facing are putting widow mines all along the path from my base to their's. It is dealign so much damage and killing entire packs of lings. I don't know what to do to combat this. The onyl 2 units I can think of that don't suicide when fighting them is the Hydra and the Queen. The Hydra is fine, except it cost too much to keep a good army comp alive that is solid vs Bio. Queens do well vs widow mines close to your base, but past that they are useless as you're not going to slow move them across the map. So what are you guys doing past 9 mins to deal with widow mines planted all over the map?
On December 08 2012 17:16 SirPsychoMantis wrote: Has anyone tried going muta vs. T recently? I feel like widow mines make it way too risky to be aggressive with them, kind of killing their purpose. Sure you might pick off that depot, or you might just lose 10 mutas to a clump of widow mines.
EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, what real viable strategies do we have against T now? Ling / Hydra to clear out mines? Might be ok with lair speed. Pure mutas vs mines seem like a lost cause. Infestors severely nerfed. I'm kind of at a loss for mid game strategies.
Regards zvt: To be honest i think muta is better than ever, the speed buff is really huge in zvt. You just need to get an overseer with overlord speed with it. Otherwise i was just fucked by vikings raping my overlord vision and then dropships raping me. I go for 9-16 Mutalisks with +1, while going dbl upgrades and i follow it up with hive (for ultra, viper). That works, because i spend no gas on Infestors anymore. I really feel like hydras should get even more speed on creep. I cant deal effectively with 2 dropships harassing me with the new medivac + a scary push, which is why i go muta now every game. There are probably also some timings with hydra ling busts, but i dont like the idea too too much, light units can be countered way too well by terran atm, and hydras are still, compared to medivacs, way too slow.
Against mech roach hydra ling bane viper should work well.
Regards zvp, i like to go roach hydra (but really hydraheavy) and then scout what hes up to. In most cases you can always put some pressure on and follow it up with vipers if needbe and later ultralisks. I just hate that blizzard removed the burrowcharge, my ultras get stuck behind other units so much.. I would prefer the burrow charge in comparison to the dmgbuff, especially regarding how the infestor is now.
In zvz i go either muta ling bling, which really works now because ppl get hydra to counter mutas, or a 1-1 roach push followed up by 2-2 roach hyra on three bases, the third timing i do if needbe is ultralisk hydra. I mix in 2-3 infestors, but no vipers. I dont know tho if Viper is better, but it soakes up so much supply.
The Swarm Host seems to really suck in my opinion. In some situations theyre great, but i dont like the design as a slow siege unit at all. Furthermore, you really need commit (and probably commit to an allin) if you wanna use swarm hosts imo. I feel like Hydra/Muta based armies are the way to go atm - which i really like I had some success with a few 2 base containes i did in zvp. I spend all my money in swarmhosts, 1-2 overseers and queens. I like queens a lot more than curropters, theyre more flexible and a lot cheaper. If the game goes on a bit you can for sure add in some curropters/hydras too.
As a sidenote. I really would appreciate if blizzard would buff zerg drops somehow. Compared to the recent medivac and warpprism changes, zerg has the worst oppertunities to drop. And some of the zerg compositions are really immobile, so that could get some more flexibility in. I dont like being forced to go swarmhost allin or wait until t3 until i can break a turtleling opponent. I couldnt use Hydras effeciently so far in zvt. High master (wol/hots) here
Btw, do you really feel like the hots infestor nerfs were nessecary? If we have a look at recent nasl finals, the -1 range reducement was already quite heavy. Hydras and mutas are already an option now, so why cant we get some kind of useful infestors for a third option? I dont say that just -1 range is enough, maybe they could remove the stun with a slow, or at least make the projectile faster or with longer range. Im not sure but thats the way i feel about it. Furthermore in HotS the infestor is very very fucking slow compared to the other midgamestrategies, thats another disadvantage of infestor builds too. no need to overnerf
Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote: Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
Not yet! Still trying different things. I really wish blizz would scrap the Swarm Host and give us a lurker. I feel liek that is what is missing from the Zerg comp. A kind of medium range siege unit with burrow would be great if it had splash. Locusts are jsut too few and far between to be effective right now.
On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote: Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
Yes I win most of my zvt's. Vs mech roach/hydra/viper still beats mech very handily. Vs bio roach/ling/bane - ling/bane/ultra/viper with some hydras is very strong.
Of course for both of these compositions to work you HAVE to have good viper control. If you suck with vipers and can't use them to save your life then I am not sure, but vipers do need proper control using both the compositions I said.
On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote: Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
Yes I win most of my zvt's. Vs mech roach/hydra/viper still beats mech very handily. Vs bio roach/ling/bane - ling/bane/ultra/viper with some hydras is very strong.
Of course for both of these compositions to work you HAVE to have good viper control. If you suck with vipers and can't use them to save your life then I am not sure, but vipers do need proper control using both the compositions I said.
What do you do when terran gets out like 5 vikings?
On December 09 2012 10:39 SoFrOsTy wrote: How are you guys dealing with spider mines early game? I am finding that I can't even compete vs terran because spider mines have so much map control and deal so much damage. What unit am I supposed to use? I tried teching to hydras, but they just put me too far behind because of how gas intense they are.
It depends if it is gas first mines or mines after a rax expand. I'm not sure about the first but you can deal pretty easily with the later. In fact I'm happy if I see mines coming early, it means the reactor factory time has not been used for hellions and that banshees are delayed. You can build less lings because of this, a single spore at the ramp and a single one at the third (if going for early third) and a sacrificial ling should be enough to clear the way for the queens (considering 4 queen opener, 2 queens clear mines decently fast).
It's important to clear them as soon as possible, or else they can kite once hellions and banshees come.
I am sorry, I should have been more clear. Past the early game.. I am finding most GM's I am facing are putting widow mines all along the path from my base to their's. It is dealign so much damage and killing entire packs of lings. I don't know what to do to combat this. The onyl 2 units I can think of that don't suicide when fighting them is the Hydra and the Queen. The Hydra is fine, except it cost too much to keep a good army comp alive that is solid vs Bio. Queens do well vs widow mines close to your base, but past that they are useless as you're not going to slow move them across the map. So what are you guys doing past 9 mins to deal with widow mines planted all over the map?
Well at that point nothing will really work other than detecting them, personnaly I use lings to clear them, I really don't like hydras in ZvT if it's not mech play and queens are too slow to be really efficient at clearing them. 25 minerals to kill the mine seems ok to me but I agree it's definitely a pain in the ass.
On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote: Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
Yes I win most of my zvt's. Vs mech roach/hydra/viper still beats mech very handily. Vs bio roach/ling/bane - ling/bane/ultra/viper with some hydras is very strong.
Of course for both of these compositions to work you HAVE to have good viper control. If you suck with vipers and can't use them to save your life then I am not sure, but vipers do need proper control using both the compositions I said.
What do you do when terran gets out like 5 vikings?
Well you should be making hydra's so just use the hydras to shoot them down and obviously be careful with vipers still. Most terrans I play get the vikings now so should always have a few hydras in your army.
Should I be going Swarm Host+Hydra against Protoss while keeping roaches at a minimum to save gas for Vipers? Or should I just go roach hydra with Vipers and skip Swarm Hosts altogether?
Swarm host is a wast in all match ups atm, In order to even get use out of Swarm host (Idra/LZ/ other eg zergs) all said the same thing, you must spend several thousands of gas/locust upgrade and grab a mass of them, and then you're army is lack luster cuz all your resources are going into useless swarm host which can be avoided, killed off very easy unless you have a high gas army behind that which you can't afford, even in super late game u wont have the gas for them.
Only thing pros are using Swarm host for are Nydas w0rm all ins with queen/swarm host timing similar to the Hydra/nydus timming in WOL vs protoss.
Your gas is spent better else where. Zvp most people will go roach/hydra viper vs protoss going colosi deathballs
and going infestor/roach/hydra/ultra vs zealot/archon/templar......Idra just makes like 4 or 5 vipers behind a large hydra/roach force and micro vipers vs colosi
Infestors are still needed for fungle to root archon/zealot armies, The projectile is not even noticeable its soo fast it's hard for toss to dodge.
On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote: Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
Not yet! Still trying different things. I really wish blizz would scrap the Swarm Host and give us a lurker. I feel liek that is what is missing from the Zerg comp. A kind of medium range siege unit with burrow would be great if it had splash. Locusts are jsut too few and far between to be effective right now.
What i do is play super aggressive. I bane bust every game, then transition into roach, then transition into muta, and then get a roach/hydra/infestor army and push out. If he holds it i leave without gg. Thats basically all you can do
@sagefreke From my experience, Vipers are almost always the much better choice. Unless the toss goes heavy air, an even then SH won't really be of much help
In regards to ZvT where terran goes mech: Can some one, such as blade maybe? :D, who is a higher level post a replay or explain HOW to go the roach hydra viper, i just feel really clunky and a little lost in when / how to transition, engage and control this army especially the viper in order to stay cost efficient.
This is already my worst match up in WoL, where i play at a masters level, but here I feel even more at a lose. Any help would be great!
I find storm to be a pretty huge problem when going roach/hydra, especially if the game drags on and toss gets that 4th base. As storm can still be cast through the blinding cloud and splitting just isn't effective enough to still be somewhat supply efficient I seem to die as soon as there's 4-5+ storms available. Pretty hard to transition to ultras when toss is transitioning into air play too:S
On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote: Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
Yes I win most of my zvt's. Vs mech roach/hydra/viper still beats mech very handily. Vs bio roach/ling/bane - ling/bane/ultra/viper with some hydras is very strong.
Of course for both of these compositions to work you HAVE to have good viper control. If you suck with vipers and can't use them to save your life then I am not sure, but vipers do need proper control using both the compositions I said.
I haven't had a chance to watch your stream recently, but I definitely will soon. (vs bio) How are you playing the roach/ling/bane to be able to get to late game with ultras? It feels odd, like I'm being too risky if I skip all the lair tech units.
EDIT: Also I was not really serious about playing back when reapers were good, now almost everyone I play against is doing 2 rax reaper openings. What is the proper response to this? Fast ling speed seems like you need way too many lings to take out a clump of reapers, should I just turtle up with queens?
I literally haven't beat a Terran since the new patch and I've only beaten Protoss when they make gigantic mistakes. Right now Zerg have no way to take a safe third against Terran, and against Protoss we cannot attack until Vipers. But for the sake of being constructive instead of just lamenting the garbage patch this is, I'm curious if any masters/gm zergs are having success getting into the mid game w/o being at a disadvantage against Zerg and if any are having success with earlyish attacks against Protoss.
Played against a couple of terrans but none have seemed that good, I think roach baneling with a few hydras to pick of medivacs when you get the chance can carry you to hive tech. Ultras with queen support is actually really good, vipers counter tanks pretty nicely if they decide to just sit in their base.
I can't seem to find a good answer to protoss late-game tho, pretty much forced to baserace when he moves out ^.^
I have won no games against protoss. No matter what they do they win but that aside. How to you counter mass oracle (+10). they almost killed my entire worker line, then with oracle / zealot with no upgrades, killed my 2/1 roach hydra. this was of course off 2 base.
Do i have to make corruptors? I scouted with 2 ovi's but all i seen was a twilight. (they went for a DT rush but cancelled)
On December 10 2012 03:33 hubschrauber wrote: Has anybody found a successful way to play ZvT? I've been trying to ditch the infestor and go for roach/hydra/viper but it seems like vipers will never touch anything if terran decides to produce vikings and it's then to late to win an air battle because of the terran's upgrade advantage.
Yes I win most of my zvt's. Vs mech roach/hydra/viper still beats mech very handily. Vs bio roach/ling/bane - ling/bane/ultra/viper with some hydras is very strong.
Of course for both of these compositions to work you HAVE to have good viper control. If you suck with vipers and can't use them to save your life then I am not sure, but vipers do need proper control using both the compositions I said.
I haven't had a chance to watch your stream recently, but I definitely will soon. (vs bio) How are you playing the roach/ling/bane to be able to get to late game with ultras? It feels odd, like I'm being too risky if I skip all the lair tech units.
EDIT: Also I was not really serious about playing back when reapers were good, now almost everyone I play against is doing 2 rax reaper openings. What is the proper response to this? Fast ling speed seems like you need way too many lings to take out a clump of reapers, should I just turtle up with queens?
Well I would definitely watch my stream vods as so far I haven't died to any timings while I am teching :D.
Just with roach/ling/bane I am starting my hive at like 10 minutes so if they do a huge timing vipers will be out and I will beat it back. Works great for me as I haven't had any problems ^_^.
Vs reapers you have to get roaches (in general zvt you have to now as hellbats just beat ling/bane so hard). Have 2 queens at main/natural and then when you do get roaches out you can do whatever you want with them ^^.
On December 11 2012 04:21 phrenzy wrote: I have won no games against protoss. No matter what they do they win but that aside. How to you counter mass oracle (+10). they almost killed my entire worker line, then with oracle / zealot with no upgrades, killed my 2/1 roach hydra. this was of course off 2 base.
Do i have to make corruptors? I scouted with 2 ovi's but all i seen was a twilight. (they went for a DT rush but cancelled)
Well if you don't see it coming and you don't have queens/spores at your bases you are kinda screwed. In general zvp if you can't scout anything I would throw down blind spores. With how cheap DT shrine is and how popular stargate play is it is never a bad move to do.
Also roach/hydra can beat that but you need a lot of hydra's, if you see lots of zealots I would add banelings to the mix as well. You do not need to add corruptors, if you are going to go spire tech you might is will go muta/ling/bane.
Yeah i had 3 spores but the 12 oracle dps is too fast/high.
And the zealot was something i just never seen, they had a tight wall and i was too pre- occupied with teh oracles i assumed this was the only thing they had going. (from the scouted dt's to the mass oracles) I think i have to go spire if i see double stargate. 12+ oracles kill everything literally, no exaggeration, add the timewarp and zealots. Spire tech seems the only viable solution.
For me, the problem lies more with ZvT once T gets one three bases and attacks with thors/hellbats/vikings and a couple banshees all with 3 3 upgrades obviously
I tried multi drops, ling runbys, muta harass but I always seem to die in the end. My BL and viper die in a matter of seconds against 3 3 vikings and if I go ultra vs thors it s usually not pretty.
I havent tried many hydras based builds though. Any hints on a late game army composition I d like to have against that particular T army?
On December 13 2012 06:52 WGT-Baal wrote: For me, the problem lies more with ZvT once T gets one three bases and attacks with thors/hellbats/vikings and a couple banshees all with 3 3 upgrades obviously
I tried multi drops, ling runbys, muta harass but I always seem to die in the end. My BL and viper die in a matter of seconds against 3 3 vikings and if I go ultra vs thors it s usually not pretty.
I havent tried many hydras based builds though. Any hints on a late game army composition I d like to have against that particular T army?
Um if he's going mech roach/hydra/viper is really strong vs that composition. Mutas are just going to get crushed and yeah. VS mech do roach/hydra/viper a lot stronger then going bl's to ^_^.
blade? you do blinding cloud? so i think you go hydra heavy (since roaches are "not that optimal" cause they must go under the cloud also). how can you afford a big hydra army combined with 3-4 vipers vs a 200 mech army? you need 8-10 gas asap?
how you can protect your gas expos, since 3-4 bf battle hellions can kill all your drones, even you protect them with 3-5! spine crawlers?
On December 13 2012 10:23 tzui wrote: blade? you do blinding cloud? so i think you go hydra heavy (since roaches are "not that optimal" cause they must go under the cloud also). how can you afford a big hydra army combined with 3-4 vipers vs a 200 mech army? you need 8-10 gas asap?
how you can protect your gas expos, since 3-4 bf battle hellions can kill all your drones, even you protect them with 3-5! spine crawlers?
You want some roaches trust me their a good meat shield and yes I do blinding cloud.
Out of the many games I have played vs mech I have only lost 2, and I have played mech at least 20+ times.
Have to put spines in all bases, sure they still kill most of the drones but if you can split or burrow sometimes you get lucky and they don't realize it and you lose none.
I was able to kill 4th base more than once, In addition I had 4 Bases of my own, Plus I held the 5th and 6th bases. Turtling till BC production is possible, I ended up facing this compition. Raven, Viking, BC, thor, tank.
My air upgrades are 3-2 which are pretty good for upgrading 3/3 melee and armour. But still i'm easily matched. I don't even know where to begin.
Blade, is it just me or are bio based comps insanely good at this point? I haven't run into any good terrans yet but I find infestors useless and I'm not convinced mutas are worth it vs mines even with good control.
-The medivac upgrade makes lings worse in fights -Drops are faster or can escape from mutas after picking up -Reaper openings are better -As said above, infestors are terrible -Simply moving mutas around the map becomes a risk with the threat of mines -You need an overseer to travel with mutas, which slows down muta harass -If you don't check first with an overseer you have to harass with spread mutas, meaning much lower dps on a single target -I don't find swarm hosts particularly good against bio and you don't have a way to shut down medivacs -Hellbats are immortal vs lings
I'm also not sure what you want for a late game comp with infestor bl being so much worse. Ultras are much better vs marines and vipers are okay in some situations, but vipers still don't feel very reliable unless they're very heavy on tanks and have them clumped and I don't see the broolord techswitch being anywhere near as good.
I've been considering opening ling/bane/hydra into quick hive but I haven't tried it yet.
I do also have big problems with Terran since the last patch. Formerly my best matchup (even before BL/Infestor) it transitioned into my worst MU.
Those mech compositions are shredding my Roach/Hydra/Ling (+Viper) very fast, especially if there are some Vikings mixed in. Blinding Cloud helps but in most cases it is just of small use. The only time i can really beat mech is when I do some Nydus/Drop all-in and catch him off-guard.
Bio seems also pretty strong with the new Medivac. I haven't played against a lot of Bio thus far but when I face pure Bio it is pretty hard to face the better healing and also pretty hard to use Infestors properly which I think should be the exact counter to Bio.
Now I'll watch the guide and see if I can improve.
On December 13 2012 10:23 tzui wrote: blade? you do blinding cloud? so i think you go hydra heavy (since roaches are "not that optimal" cause they must go under the cloud also). how can you afford a big hydra army combined with 3-4 vipers vs a 200 mech army? you need 8-10 gas asap?
how you can protect your gas expos, since 3-4 bf battle hellions can kill all your drones, even you protect them with 3-5! spine crawlers?
You want some roaches trust me their a good meat shield and yes I do blinding cloud.
Out of the many games I have played vs mech I have only lost 2, and I have played mech at least 20+ times.
Have to put spines in all bases, sure they still kill most of the drones but if you can split or burrow sometimes you get lucky and they don't realize it and you lose none.
Blinding cloud DEMOLISHES tanks. It's hilarious how places where normally a defensive tank formation would be super hard to break becomes nothing to your hydras.
I should enjoy this before terrans start blindly making vikings in beta.
Can someone tell me what should i do if toss is going mass air, not oracles this time, just massing tempests , carriers and void rays. Because if i go hydra, that dies, if i go corruptor the void rays and carriers kill them. I even killed a toss's third and still couldn't win. I had so much money, why hydras, corruptors died i made 14 infestors, still didnt work.
What's good vs mine heavy mech with the mine upgrade that makes them instant burrow? Like say the T has some thors/battle helions, maybe a few tanks, and like 10+ mines with their army. Say if they go to engage with mines unburrowed then run them into your army and do the instant burrow by your roach/hydra.
On December 14 2012 08:31 hunts wrote: What's good vs mine heavy mech with the mine upgrade that makes them instant burrow? Like say the T has some thors/battle helions, maybe a few tanks, and like 10+ mines with their army. Say if they go to engage with mines unburrowed then run them into your army and do the instant burrow by your roach/hydra.
roach/hydra/viper is still the answer to it. Just have to be careful with your units, run them away, spread them, have overseers with you at all times.
On December 14 2012 04:31 phrenzy wrote: Can someone tell me what should i do if toss is going mass air, not oracles this time, just massing tempests , carriers and void rays. Because if i go hydra, that dies, if i go corruptor the void rays and carriers kill them. I even killed a toss's third and still couldn't win. I had so much money, why hydras, corruptors died i made 14 infestors, still didnt work.
Or is the answer there is nothing yet?
You should first off not let him get that composition if at all possible. Being aggressive with roach/hydra/viper and making sure not to give him the time to get that composition is key. You do need corruptors for the carriers and hydras for the void rays so if he's getting that composition and he's getting it in mass you can not kill it. You are dead now that void rays crush corruptors hardcore now.
So you have to prevent it by never letting him get that composition in mass.
Cheers blade, I was thinking that might be the answer. I don't feel very confident walking around with roaches and hydras, a few vipers. I seen that cool guide you did on ZvT, you lose your vipers a few times but after they did their damage, i lose them for free most of the time.
do you guys have a good and viable strat vs bio? i literally tried everything but well...medivac speedboost + new healing is just OP right now, especially since infestor has become a useless unit. they just can mass drop you everywhere, are now nearly invincible if they are behind a mineral line and if you have enough to defend they pick up, use boost and are gone. so basically T is now able to lets say 90% riskfree drops AND if you force a fight the new medivacs in combination with the sucky infestor makes bio not only incredibly awesome at harrassing but also in a fight.
would be very welcome if somebody got a viable standard strat vs bio.
Versus bio there are two compositions that seem to work for me. The first is ling/bane/muta and at hive add ultras+viper. The second is ling/bane/hydra and add ultras+viper at hive tech. I personally like muta better since it also scares the terran so they might not drop as much.
On December 15 2012 21:34 Decendos wrote: do you guys have a good and viable strat vs bio? i literally tried everything but well...medivac speedboost + new healing is just OP right now, especially since infestor has become a useless unit. they just can mass drop you everywhere, are now nearly invincible if they are behind a mineral line and if you have enough to defend they pick up, use boost and are gone. so basically T is now able to lets say 90% riskfree drops AND if you force a fight the new medivacs in combination with the sucky infestor makes bio not only incredibly awesome at harrassing but also in a fight.
would be very welcome if somebody got a viable standard strat vs bio.
Well I am currently trying to go mutalisk in zvt but tbh I think I am having mixed results.
So far I am having the most success with roach/ling/bane and starting hive at 10:45 - 11 minutes (pretty much as soon as infestation pit finishes). Then I go into ultra/ling/bane/viper with a few hydras to kill medivacs.
To deal with drop play I have some static D at bases and at my main I will leave a group of ling/bane as well. This is what I have the best results with at the moment.
This is probably more a WoL question, but I just switched from protoss to zerg and was wondering how you respond vs. mech in the early game. I've been doing fine against hellions because I usually just put a spine down and pull my natural queen back next to my main queen and wait to trap them with speedlings. When I suspect banshees though, I'm not sure what to do. One queen can't kill two banshees and I usually don't have enough energy for transfuse by the time I get my other queen over. Is it ok to put spores in your mineral line, or is that too much of an investment? Should I already be getting hydras or mutas?
Also when I go viper I see a lot more people using blinding cloud than abduct, when do I use each? I'm guessing abduct vs. protoss, cloud vs. terran since abducting colossi smashes forcefields and protoss doesn't have long range air aoe.
On December 15 2012 21:34 Decendos wrote: do you guys have a good and viable strat vs bio? i literally tried everything but well...medivac speedboost + new healing is just OP right now, especially since infestor has become a useless unit. they just can mass drop you everywhere, are now nearly invincible if they are behind a mineral line and if you have enough to defend they pick up, use boost and are gone. so basically T is now able to lets say 90% riskfree drops AND if you force a fight the new medivacs in combination with the sucky infestor makes bio not only incredibly awesome at harrassing but also in a fight.
would be very welcome if somebody got a viable standard strat vs bio.
Well I am currently trying to go mutalisk in zvt but tbh I think I am having mixed results.
So far I am having the most success with roach/ling/bane and starting hive at 10:45 - 11 minutes (pretty much as soon as infestation pit finishes). Then I go into ultra/ling/bane/viper with a few hydras to kill medivacs.
To deal with drop play I have some static D at bases and at my main I will leave a group of ling/bane as well. This is what I have the best results with at the moment.
thanks. i had the "best" results so far with ling bling hydra into ling bling viper hydra ultra now. but "best" is not really good because if he microes well i still have the feeling that its completely impossible to deal with the new MMM in a halfway efficient way. mutas are a complete waste in ZvT imo though.
you said kill medivacs with hydras. well i know you play at very high level but i think then T start to pull their medivacs back (which is very easy now thx to speedboost) the medivaccount gets out of hand very fast. and thats where i think Z has nothing to deal with once T reaches 10+ of the supervacs.
On December 14 2012 08:53 blade55555 wrote: You should first off not let him get that composition if at all possible. Being aggressive with roach/hydra/viper and making sure not to give him the time to get that composition is key. You do need corruptors for the carriers and hydras for the void rays so if he's getting that composition and he's getting it in mass you can not kill it. You are dead now that void rays crush corruptors hardcore now.
So you have to prevent it by never letting him get that composition in mass.
How do you feel about this kind of game flow? I hate lategame invincible maxed compositions, I think Blizzard should have learned from broodlord/infestor that they ruin game flow by giving both sides obvious game plans from which you can't really escape.
On December 14 2012 08:53 blade55555 wrote: You should first off not let him get that composition if at all possible. Being aggressive with roach/hydra/viper and making sure not to give him the time to get that composition is key. You do need corruptors for the carriers and hydras for the void rays so if he's getting that composition and he's getting it in mass you can not kill it. You are dead now that void rays crush corruptors hardcore now.
So you have to prevent it by never letting him get that composition in mass.
How do you feel about this kind of game flow? I hate lategame invincible maxed compositions, I think Blizzard should have learned from broodlord/infestor that they ruin game flow by giving both sides obvious game plans from which you can't really escape.
It's dumb, but it's also hard to avoid for the most part. Even in BW protoss could eventually get this unkillable army, but it was way way harder to get in bw and I think it may have stopped being the strongest, I can't remember, but I know it wasn't very common like in sc2 pvz where deathballs are normal.
I hope if it does end up being to powerful that blizzard will balance it, but as of right now it is very possible to stop protoss from ever getting that composition due to everything not being figured out.
Does nobody here use infestors anymore? They still look incredibly strong, except you can't use more than 10, since IT's don't scale, and their eggs are easy to destroy.
I don't see how you're supposed to handle lategame 3/3 cadaceus reactor bio without chain fungals, yet people are theorycrafting using shit like hydras. Does nobody here know what happened in the WoL beta? Zergs stopped using roach/hydra because of MMM, and the viper is not going to make that army any easier to fight.
On December 17 2012 07:15 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Does nobody here use infestors anymore? They still look incredibly strong, except you can't use more than 10, since IT's don't scale, and their eggs are easy to destroy.
I don't see how you're supposed to handle lategame 3/3 cadaceus reactor bio without chain fungals, yet people are theorycrafting using shit like hydras. Does nobody here know what happened in the WoL beta? Zergs stopped using roach/hydra because of MMM, and the viper is not going to make that army any easier to fight.
Under usage is a natural reaction to a nerf and so is over usage after a buff.
However, if hydras ever get more widely use than infestors, then the hydra den should be the requirement for hive.
I have a suggestion that I think interests us Zergs more than other races, but I'm sure they won't let me make a thread about tit, so I'll just post it here and hope any high profile wants to promote the idea:
Blizzard already got rid of ramp blocks by introducing unbuildable plates. I believe the next step is to do something about natural blocks, and I have a small suggestion that could take care of that: 1) place unbuildable rocks at naturals 2) make those unbuildable rocks removable when you put down a CC/nexus/hatch (assume they get burried under the the structure).
SC2 has become a game where Fast Expands are the standard openings for every race in every MU. Imo, this makes the natural almost a right the players have that shouldn't be so easily denied/delayed.
On December 15 2012 21:34 Decendos wrote: do you guys have a good and viable strat vs bio? i literally tried everything but well...medivac speedboost + new healing is just OP right now, especially since infestor has become a useless unit. they just can mass drop you everywhere, are now nearly invincible if they are behind a mineral line and if you have enough to defend they pick up, use boost and are gone. so basically T is now able to lets say 90% riskfree drops AND if you force a fight the new medivacs in combination with the sucky infestor makes bio not only incredibly awesome at harrassing but also in a fight.
would be very welcome if somebody got a viable standard strat vs bio.
Well I am currently trying to go mutalisk in zvt but tbh I think I am having mixed results.
So far I am having the most success with roach/ling/bane and starting hive at 10:45 - 11 minutes (pretty much as soon as infestation pit finishes). Then I go into ultra/ling/bane/viper with a few hydras to kill medivacs.
To deal with drop play I have some static D at bases and at my main I will leave a group of ling/bane as well. This is what I have the best results with at the moment.
I´m also struggling agains mass bio + new Medivac.I think the bigest problem is that a good T player can out micro most unit combination. I also had the most success with Ultra, hydra, ling/bling and a few infestor to hold the bio down. But hiting the fungle agains a good player is realy realy realy hard.
I also tried to use Viper instad of Infestors. But I think that they only work if you can somehow force a engagment and i duno how to do that on a big map. I mean, it is not like the bio will keep staying under the cloud and the Viper energy is limited.
I also tried to use Viper instad of Infestors. But I think that they only work if you can somehow force a engagment and i duno how to do that on a big map. I mean, it is not like the bio will keep staying under the cloud and the Viper energy is limited.
on open space you crush terra bio anyway with ultra ling bling, blinding cloud ist for this ugly narrow chokes where clunky ultras bugged to death
I also tried to use Viper instad of Infestors. But I think that they only work if you can somehow force a engagment and i duno how to do that on a big map. I mean, it is not like the bio will keep staying under the cloud and the Viper energy is limited.
on open space you crush terra bio anyway with ultra ling bling, blinding cloud ist for this ugly narrow chokes where clunky ultras bugged to death
First of big maps do not necessarily mean open space. I do not see how you "crush" a terran bio army with this combo on open field. If T kit micro is good he ca trade quiet efficent for a long time and trade quiet efficent this way. If you get a suround (what is hard to do and quiet often related to a mistake on the terran side) or terran sees that he is on a disadvantage and just needs to lift up und "boostaway". I do not think that you can engage the new medivac without some anti air, thats why most people try out Hydralisks. In my opinion you also need some high dps/splash dmg units in order to beat the high medivac regeneration which are namely: Infestor, Baneling, Hydralisk, Ultralisk.
Anyone finding the new 'select all army' hotkey useful? This could save apm from adding eggs to hotkeys, but if you have mutas or infestors in a separate hotkey, you often have to give them a different command after using the global hotkey. Not sure if it's worth it.
The most annoying thing is that my watchtower lings are selected by this hotkey, too. But I think the hotkey could be somewhat useful to beginners. "I am attacked! I need my complete army to defend!"
On December 17 2012 20:06 [F_]aths wrote: Blade, I watched the stream the day you played 5 Hots zvz in a row and saw that you like to open hatch-first. How do you defend a ling all-in?
ling/bane myself if he does 14/14 ling/bane all in you just make a spine or 2, get baneling nest first and use queens.
Just have to make sure you use your queens + lings to do it.
About the F2 and the xel naga towers, maybe if units on hold didn't get selected, or units not in a group. Offracing as protoss I noticed building a pylon next to a tower gave me vision even when a unit wasn't around. If a hatchery cost 50 minerals that would be a fair balance change
In seriousness I'll try a queen and overlord planting a creep tumor next to a tower tonight and see if that works for vision. then you can deny unitless vision (creep blocking buildings) and force some detection too for watchtower control. Otherwise it feels too easy for T and P compared to Z, unless there is a gas geyser at each tower.
On December 17 2012 07:15 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Does nobody here use infestors anymore? They still look incredibly strong, except you can't use more than 10, since IT's don't scale, and their eggs are easy to destroy.
I don't see how you're supposed to handle lategame 3/3 cadaceus reactor bio without chain fungals, yet people are theorycrafting using shit like hydras. Does nobody here know what happened in the WoL beta? Zergs stopped using roach/hydra because of MMM, and the viper is not going to make that army any easier to fight.
Vipers can abduct and pick off medivacs, keeping the medivac's numbers down through out the entire game will be critical imo.
I never use the F2 key before in my games. I thought the select all army is when, 'oh sh!t. I am about to lose and i need everything that can attack to come...." In that scenario, pulling every units (include those on patrol or hold) will be ideal.
On December 18 2012 12:31 tzui wrote: i wish units in patrol mode would not get selected, then you can patrol at watchtowers and vs drops in your mineral line and use F2 instead of str-1
On December 18 2012 12:31 tzui wrote: i wish units in patrol mode would not get selected, then you can patrol at watchtowers and vs drops in your mineral line and use F2 instead of str-1
I guess, that would be too complicated to be newbie friendly. I understand the F2 key, like the 5-slot-queue (instead of just a 2-slot queue) in production buildings, as well as the mouse-clickable command card (instead the force of using the hotkey) as a less-than-optimal way to play by design just to keep it simple for a beginner. I guess that not everyone will ever learn hotkeys or even group hotkeys, because he has no real ambition to compete.
On December 17 2012 17:24 Azoryen wrote: Blizzard already got rid of ramp blocks by introducing unbuildable plates. I believe the next step is to do something about natural blocks, and I have a small suggestion that could take care of that: 1) place unbuildable rocks at naturals 2) make those unbuildable rocks removable when you put down a CC/nexus/hatch (assume they get burried under the the structure).
SC2 has become a game where Fast Expands are the standard openings for every race in every MU. Imo, this makes the natural almost a right the players have that shouldn't be so easily denied/delayed.
Is that really necessary? I think ramp blocks were a bit different because it allows the opponent to build whatever they want in your natural (usually cannons or bunkers) making it hard to break down the wall without taking a stupid amount of damage while doing so.
Natural blocking doesn't do this, it just delays your expansion a small amount or forces you to expand somewhere else, which is usually a very good option (which may even put a protoss behind if they don't cancel the pylon since it doesn't really hinder you?) since fast thirds are so common.
How do you guys deal with carrier-tempest lategame in ZvP? I have a feeling once they are maxed on 3/3 carriers with some tempest nothing can face it.
Also are mutas really bad in ZvP now? I played against someone who went reactive phoenix, he just made 5 and I could never touch him with the mutas, he just took potshots with the new range. Also recalled to defend between nexuses.
So here is one for you all to scratch your head, Terran opens mech, and after massing a few thors and tanks, goes mass widow mine, viking BC. What on earth do you make against that.
On December 19 2012 04:18 phrenzy wrote: So here is one for you all to scratch your head, Terran opens mech, and after massing a few thors and tanks, goes mass widow mine, viking BC. What on earth do you make against that.
I have a similar question. My opponent went for bio instead but with an absurd number of widow mine. I dont know what to do against that mass widow mine. Zerglings just evaporate and Ultralisks didn't last long after that.
Is there a unit tester for HotS yet because i dont know how to engage widow mines cost effectively. It takes up so much micro and yet the terran that i play against spilt them out 4 at a time and have no worries even if im on 6 bases and they are on 3 and i have superior upgrades.
On December 19 2012 04:18 phrenzy wrote: So here is one for you all to scratch your head, Terran opens mech, and after massing a few thors and tanks, goes mass widow mine, viking BC. What on earth do you make against that.
A replay would be helpful for a specific game like this one.
Edit to avoid double post:
What are some ways to try to get an edge in an even muta vs muta war? I hate feeling like my opponent has to make a mistake for me to get ahead. Is it worth it to split into two groups if you aren't trying to engage anyway?
In ZvT what is everyone's thoughts on the best way of taking a fast 3rd on Howling Peak. Most other maps the 6 queen opening I brought over from wings works pretty well. It just feels really really unsafe on Howling Peak with the multiple pathes to your base and the fairly long distance of the third.
Can someone tell me what is you main composition against Bio. I just got rolled twice one just went pure marine, marauder, medivac and the other marine tank. I got upgrades for lings and banes all the way to 3/3 and just got rolled over by medivac super energy.
The one who went pure MMM i asked him how many bases, he said 3, i was on 5.
I used to use infestors about after the most recent balance change they still dont work, only for big armies(which dont die to fungal).
So i ask what do you go, because everytime i go muta, widow mines kill me and every time i go viper, either marines/marauder kills me, if they go mech then vikings get me.
I just havent got a clue anymore because its impossible for me at least to harrass with mutas, turrets and widows get me everytime.
SirPsycho: Sorry i cant find it, too many games, im sure it will come up again though.
^^^^ totally agreeded with the above post. what do you do against the late game compisiton of mmm + tank/widowmine.
Your lings honestly die instantly. and it is nearly impossible to keep up with binding cloud with terran production. I just lost 5 Base to 3 Base to this...
On December 21 2012 16:02 RimJaynor wrote: ^^^^ totally agreeded with the above post. what do you do against the late game compisiton of mmm + tank/widowmine.
Your lings honestly die instantly. and it is nearly impossible to keep up with binding cloud with terran production. I just lost 5 Base to 3 Base to this...
In my experience its quite important to have some mutas during the midgame to kill the medivacs off, i rather keep my mutas alive then doing a lot of harassdmg with them, the new dropship speed ability is just so strong with just ground based defense. After that i transition into fast ultralisks while i stay alive on muta ling bling with ~3infestors. I feel like infestors are a lot better against this kind of terran army then vipers. If you can hold him in place your ultras will absolutely shred them, and a 2-2 timing wont kill you with this kind of defense when ure on creep. You could check out the replays vs NSHGolem in my replay pack if youre interested
BTW regards the widow mines, i dont feel like theyre a huge deal at all. I tend to get overlord speed and an overseer with my mutas, as soon as you have i think 11 (?) you can kill a mine before it can shoot, which helps you a lot regards harassing.
BTW regards the widow mines, i dont feel like theyre a huge deal at all. I tend to get overlord speed and an overseer with my mutas, as soon as you have i think 11 (?) you can kill a mine before it can shoot, which helps you a lot regards harassing.
WOW that is amazing to know! Thanks man!
I too strugle with Bio in Mid and Lategame. I find the time before my Ultras spawn incredibly hard to survive and generally Medivacs seem way to strong (i cant even really kill them off with mutas because of the speed ability ...) I am really feeling we need some kind of reliable AoE in form of a UNIT not a spellcaster, but i doubt enything will change in the beta enymore (eccept for balance ofc)
BTW regards the widow mines, i dont feel like theyre a huge deal at all. I tend to get overlord speed and an overseer with my mutas, as soon as you have i think 11 (?) you can kill a mine before it can shoot, which helps you a lot regards harassing.
WOW that is amazing to know! Thanks man!
I too strugle with Bio in Mid and Lategame. I find the time before my Ultras spawn incredibly hard to survive and generally Medivacs seem way to strong (i cant even really kill them off with mutas because of the speed ability ...) I am really feeling we need some kind of reliable AoE in form of a UNIT not a spellcaster, but i doubt enything will change in the beta enymore (eccept for balance ofc)
Np, but i really dont think we need another unit to deal with that. With good mapcontrol (e.g. just by taking towers) you should notice every mine that comes across your way. If you know its there its no problem at all, at the moment (i hope thats right) you cant stop the attack from the mine. Means, you can send one Unit to activate it and then you have 40 seconds (?) to kill it off. If you go for an attack you just need to scout the front with an overseer. You can also use the overseer to try to sneak some changelings in, which is really huge. I also cant mention enough how important it is to get Overseer + Ovi speed in the midgame. It doesnt just save you completly from mines, it helps you get a lot more control on the map, more scouting, delay expansions via creep and not all your well positioned overlords will die to 1 viking which clears the line for drops. And if you go for an early bust, you do it the same way as in zvz: send single zerglings to activate mines, in zvz you need that against banelings too if youre going up a ramp
No matter what build i do regards zvt, i always start with ovispeed and overseer once my lair finishes. Its quite a investment, not just for killing mines tho. It allows you to get super quick scouting all game long (which is even a bit more important than it is in WoL imo), furthermore you get enough energy to contaminate at a very crucial timing. In almost all cases i was able to delay a keyupgrade, which gives you one full larva inject more time to react to a timing push.
How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense.
On December 24 2012 13:11 CthulhuWarlord wrote: How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense.
Should have 4 queens 2 at main + natural until you get some roaches out. Be aware of the map so you can see when they pop up and what not.
hey guys. is there some way to deal with gateway openings in ZvP then he goes stargate into oracle? 1 stalker denies all scouting so i never know which tech he is going for and since 4 oracles kill queens and spores so fast right now i dont see how to defend this. i cant just blindly build 4 spores per base because you just die to robo and TC play. is oracle just too strong vs non-light right now and we have to wait for a fix or is there some way to deal with it in a standard way?
and another problem ZvP. i just dont see a way to deal with airtoss. like imo there is no way to beat an airtoss army with HT/archon support (and he doesnt need many HT or archons). is that also just bad play from my side or is it just OP right now? tried every comp but everything sucks more (hydras...funny how retardedly bad they are) or less (corruptor + infestor).
On December 24 2012 20:17 Decendos wrote: hey guys. is there some way to deal with gateway openings in ZvP then he goes stargate into oracle? 1 stalker denies all scouting so i never know which tech he is going for and since 4 oracles kill queens and spores so fast right now i dont see how to defend this. i cant just blindly build 4 spores per base because you just die to robo and TC play. is oracle just too strong vs non-light right now and we have to wait for a fix or is there some way to deal with it in a standard way?
and another problem ZvP. i just dont see a way to deal with airtoss. like imo there is no way to beat an airtoss army with HT/archon support (and he doesnt need many HT or archons). is that also just bad play from my side or is it just OP right now? tried every comp but everything sucks more (hydras...funny how retardedly bad they are) or less (corruptor + infestor).
I feel like you have to be very aggressive versus Protoss air builds. If you let them build 200/200 carrier/tempest army of course you lose the game because Zerg doesn't have anythign which can beat this straight up. I've never lost to skytoss but I've also never faced a protoss who managed to get out a good sky army so probably my advice isn't very helpful. So what I do is just normal 3hatch opener into double upgraded Roach/Hydra and fast tech to Vipers. If I see the protoss goes for some weird double stargate play I just get more hydras and attack quite fast so he has to use his gas for other units like sentrys to be able to stay alive. But as I've said: I've only faced stargate builds 2 or 3 times and the protoss never was able to build up a really strong air army.
Aside from this I have a question for ZvT: Do you go Roach/Hydra/Viper against every strategy? Or only versus Mech? I feel like it's pretty hard to play it versus Bio or Marine/Tank. I've tried to go Ling/Bling/Muta instead versus this which worked out nicely but I feel only because the Terran didn't set up widow mines to defend versus the mutas or adding in some hellbats.
On December 24 2012 13:11 CthulhuWarlord wrote: How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense.
Should have 4 queens 2 at main + natural until you get some roaches out. Be aware of the map so you can see when they pop up and what not.
I had a single game where my opponent went for fastest proxy reaper possible (like 2 rax, just with reaper). I opened 13scout 15 hatch 16pool, which is standard and works really good even vs 11-11 proxy builds.
In the game against the reaper tho, the reaper was IN MY BASE when my pool was about 90% completion. I had absolutely no chance to do anything, by the time the first zerglings pop all my drones are murdered.
Against 11-11 you can buy time with your drones, a reaper just laughs at you if you try to do that. It also doesnt help a single bit to keep all workers in your main until you have units
On December 24 2012 13:11 CthulhuWarlord wrote: How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense.
Should have 4 queens 2 at main + natural until you get some roaches out. Be aware of the map so you can see when they pop up and what not.
I had a single game where my opponent went for fastest proxy reaper possible (like 2 rax, just with reaper). I opened 13scout 15 hatch 16pool, which is standard and works really good even vs 11-11 proxy builds.
In the game against the reaper tho, the reaper was IN MY BASE when my pool was about 90% completion. I had absolutely no chance to do anything, by the time the first zerglings pop all my drones are murdered.
Anyone has some experience/advice against that?
mineral walk your drones from 1 base to another (attack his reaper if he gets too close). you will always lose some drones vs this opening but also this opening is very all in. the second your pool pops go for double queen, 1 spine and DRONES. dont build any lings because slow lings are just wasted minerals vs reaper. go for spine queen defense and safe as many drones as possible. its okay to lose some since his expansions will be very delayed.
On December 24 2012 20:17 Decendos wrote: hey guys. is there some way to deal with gateway openings in ZvP then he goes stargate into oracle? 1 stalker denies all scouting so i never know which tech he is going for and since 4 oracles kill queens and spores so fast right now i dont see how to defend this. i cant just blindly build 4 spores per base because you just die to robo and TC play. is oracle just too strong vs non-light right now and we have to wait for a fix or is there some way to deal with it in a standard way?
and another problem ZvP. i just dont see a way to deal with airtoss. like imo there is no way to beat an airtoss army with HT/archon support (and he doesnt need many HT or archons). is that also just bad play from my side or is it just OP right now? tried every comp but everything sucks more (hydras...funny how retardedly bad they are) or less (corruptor + infestor).
I feel like you have to be very aggressive versus Protoss air builds. If you let them build 200/200 carrier/tempest army of course you lose the game because Zerg doesn't have anythign which can beat this straight up. I've never lost to skytoss but I've also never faced a protoss who managed to get out a good sky army so probably my advice isn't very helpful. So what I do is just normal 3hatch opener into double upgraded Roach/Hydra and fast tech to Vipers. If I see the protoss goes for some weird double stargate play I just get more hydras and attack quite fast so he has to use his gas for other units like sentrys to be able to stay alive. But as I've said: I've only faced stargate builds 2 or 3 times and the protoss never was able to build up a really strong air army.
I had some similiar problems with ZvP vs air too. I couldnt bust them, because they stayed very very defensively with tons of cannons on three bases, until they have their critical mass. In the game im mentioning, i had DOUBLE the gas income for almost all game, i had double spire with 2-3 upgrades, maxed ground upgrades as well as a couple of Vipers and a bank to remax at least twice.
I couldnt NEARLY kill his army, it felt invincible. My army did consist mainly out of curropters with a bounch of hydras and vipers. You also cant go for basetrade situations because of the MScore.
After thinking about that situation a few times, i came to the conclusion that you either gotta bust before its that far (which is allin and quite of a gamble), or you probably need to go very infestor heavy combined with curropters. Hydras just die way too fast and have too small range. In theory i think now that curropter infestor would be the best way to deal with that army. Fungal allows you to kill tons of interceptors if their is a huge amount of carriers, furthermore you either force protoss to split his army up (which is nice against fungal), this gives you the opportunity to fungal one part of the army and kill the other one off with your curropters whichout taking too much damage. The other way for protoss would be to keep his air army together (which is nice against non-infestor based armies) which allows you to completly kill them with chainfungals. Thats just theory tho, i have just played 3 times against a decent air toss so far
I dont think that Z has any other choice than cutting of a part of the P army with fungals and engage the other one atm, the battle where i had curropter hydra viper was not even close, despite dbl gas income.
On December 24 2012 13:11 CthulhuWarlord wrote: How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense.
Should have 4 queens 2 at main + natural until you get some roaches out. Be aware of the map so you can see when they pop up and what not.
I had a single game where my opponent went for fastest proxy reaper possible (like 2 rax, just with reaper). I opened 13scout 15 hatch 16pool, which is standard and works really good even vs 11-11 proxy builds.
In the game against the reaper tho, the reaper was IN MY BASE when my pool was about 90% completion. I had absolutely no chance to do anything, by the time the first zerglings pop all my drones are murdered.
Anyone has some experience/advice against that?
mineral walk your drones from 1 base to another (attack his reaper if he gets too close). you will always lose some drones vs this opening but also this opening is very all in. the second your pool pops go for double queen, 1 spine and DRONES. dont build any lings because slow lings are just wasted minerals vs reaper. go for spine queen defense and safe as many drones as possible. its okay to lose some since his expansions will be very delayed.
Im gonna try that, but if your pool is about 90% completed by the time the reaper jumps up to your base, you gonna lose a fucking ton of drones until your first queen pops. I know slow lings are bad vs reaper, i just use them against non proxy reaper openings to camp up cliffs and try to catch, furthermore they buy me the time i need until i have my queen out. A drone costs the same and has less speed on creep as well as lower health compared to a set of lings. So i think building 2-3 sets is a little bit better than just continue building drones, even though i understand what your point.
But like i said, by the time your first lings pop you lose, i dont know, 7-10 drones i would say? Despite mineral walking of course. Assuming you have about 17 drones total it seems quite problematic. Sure you have queen and 2 hatcheries after that, but not the money to quickly boost up your drone count.
Yes, it is very allin from terran, thats why i compared it to 11-11 proxy. But to be honest i think its even a little bit less allin than that, because you dont need to pull a ton of scvs to buffer - you simply dont need any buffer as terran for your reapers. So if you lose 7-10 drones, it would be 7-10 drones vs 14 SCVs (checked the replay from the game i mentioned) + mule. I still feel like it sets you very, very far behind, even if you micro and react properly.
A 10 scout also wouldnt help against that kind of scenario, you get the information too late. Maybe you can 10 scout and then cancle your natural and go for quick gas and roaches to try to punish that reaper style. But as slow as roaches are i dont know if it would really work.
@doggy: Thanks man, your answer (to the ZvT question of mine and a few others) was really helpful to me. I did some testing with Muta vs Mines and it takes 10 Mutas to kill the mine prior to its missle to be fiered so that gives ZvT a entierly new dynamic and i really love it.
I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
On December 24 2012 23:51 v0rtex wrote: I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
Why dont you consider some kind of 2 base muta play as a solution? If T invest so much money into mines and helions, you should be able to do a lot of damage. On most maps you can walloff your natural with 2evos a banelingnest and queens, which you need anyways. After your mutas pop you also can safely secure your third.
The other option would be to go for a fast third, tech to lair a bit later and go for some early roaches. mine helion play can be totally shutdown by 3-5 roaches and some queens. its quite similiar to WoL tbh.
Doesnt matter which option you choose, you need some spores for early detection and a overseer as soon as lair pops, i also highly recommend overlord speed. I feel too spread out when i go for the earlier third with some roaches, so i prefer 2 base muta into third/fourth
On December 24 2012 23:51 v0rtex wrote: I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
Why dont you consider some kind of 2 base muta play as a solution? If T invest so much money into mines and helions, you should be able to do a lot of damage. On most maps you can walloff your natural with 2evos a banelingnest and queens, which you need anyways. After your mutas pop you also can safely secure your third.
The other option would be to go for a fast third, tech to lair a bit later and go for some early roaches. mine helion play can be totally shutdown by 3-5 roaches and some queens. its quite similiar to WoL tbh.
Doesnt matter which option you choose, you need some spores for early detection and a overseer as soon as lair pops, i also highly recommend overlord speed. I feel too spread out when i go for the earlier third with some roaches, so i prefer 2 base muta into third/fourth
dont go mutas vs mines. dont go muta at all in ZvT. you always trade 100 gas for 25 even if you play perfect. 2 base muta sacs a lot of eco so you need to do damage...but you wont with mines hitting air.
i like to go gasless 4 queen opening and take a 3rd at 47 supply against 1 rax FE. mines wont be there in time and creepspread is near your 3rd by the time mines arrive.
vs factory first i like to go gasless 4 queen opening into lair (so you get mobile detection),
in both builds you need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play.
On December 24 2012 23:51 v0rtex wrote: I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
Why dont you consider some kind of 2 base muta play as a solution? If T invest so much money into mines and helions, you should be able to do a lot of damage. On most maps you can walloff your natural with 2evos a banelingnest and queens, which you need anyways. After your mutas pop you also can safely secure your third.
The other option would be to go for a fast third, tech to lair a bit later and go for some early roaches. mine helion play can be totally shutdown by 3-5 roaches and some queens. its quite similiar to WoL tbh.
Doesnt matter which option you choose, you need some spores for early detection and a overseer as soon as lair pops, i also highly recommend overlord speed. I feel too spread out when i go for the earlier third with some roaches, so i prefer 2 base muta into third/fourth
dont go mutas vs mines. dont go muta at all in ZvT. you always trade 100 gas for 25 even if you play perfect. 2 base muta sacs a lot of eco so you need to do damage...but you wont with mines hitting air.
i like to go gasless 4 queen opening and take a 3rd at 47 supply against 1 rax FE. mines wont be there in time and creepspread is near your 3rd by the time mines arrive.
vs factory first i like to go gasless 4 queen opening into lair (so you get mobile detection),
in both builds you need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play.
I don't get what ure talking about, did you even read my post? and how do you think its generally bad to go mutas? im asking because my zvt winrate is very good so far in hots and i always play mutas. I also did never suggested to sac mutas to kill widow mines, a overseer helps with that ^^ Playing perfect, you trade nothing vs 75-25, not 100-100 to 75-25. Furthermore you neither need to sac eco or tech. it depends when you wanna get your mutas out. i get dbl gas at 4.30, 4 queen, speed into lair, as soon as i take my lair i get another two gases. after full saturation dbl evo and bane nest, after that your third. For sure you can also go for some kind of 3 base muta play. Roaches would be a lot more important here against a lot of helions, but thats all personal preference. You cant just generally say something like that ;-)
I would be interested to know in what league youre playing, the viability of builds depends a lot on that.
and no, you dont need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play. buldingplacement, creep, queens lings and blings will do more than fine if you engage correctly
On December 24 2012 23:51 v0rtex wrote: I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
Why dont you consider some kind of 2 base muta play as a solution? If T invest so much money into mines and helions, you should be able to do a lot of damage. On most maps you can walloff your natural with 2evos a banelingnest and queens, which you need anyways. After your mutas pop you also can safely secure your third.
The other option would be to go for a fast third, tech to lair a bit later and go for some early roaches. mine helion play can be totally shutdown by 3-5 roaches and some queens. its quite similiar to WoL tbh.
Doesnt matter which option you choose, you need some spores for early detection and a overseer as soon as lair pops, i also highly recommend overlord speed. I feel too spread out when i go for the earlier third with some roaches, so i prefer 2 base muta into third/fourth
dont go mutas vs mines. dont go muta at all in ZvT. you always trade 100 gas for 25 even if you play perfect. 2 base muta sacs a lot of eco so you need to do damage...but you wont with mines hitting air.
i like to go gasless 4 queen opening and take a 3rd at 47 supply against 1 rax FE. mines wont be there in time and creepspread is near your 3rd by the time mines arrive.
vs factory first i like to go gasless 4 queen opening into lair (so you get mobile detection),
in both builds you need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play.
I don't get what ure talking about, did you even read my post? and how do you think its generally bad to go mutas? im asking because my zvt winrate is very good so far in hots and i always play mutas. I also did never suggested to sac mutas to kill widow mines, a overseer helps with that ^^ Playing perfect, you trade nothing vs 75-25, not 100-100 to 75-25. Furthermore you neither need to sac eco or tech. it depends when you wanna get your mutas out. i get dbl gas at 4.30, 4 queen, speed into lair, as soon as i take my lair i get another two gases. after full saturation dbl evo and bane nest, after that your third. For sure you can also go for some kind of 3 base muta play. Roaches would be a lot more important here against a lot of helions, but thats all personal preference. You cant just generally say something like that ;-)
I would be interested to know in what league youre playing, the viability of builds depends a lot on that.
and no, you dont need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play. buldingplacement, creep, queens lings and blings will do more than fine if you engage correctly
you dont need a roach warren if you go 2 base mutas, thats correct. but i described a build on how to get a pretty fast 3rd.
as for your statement on 2 base muta: ofc you sac eco because you delay your 3rd for a long time. in WoL thats not a problem since your mutas always do some damage. with mines in play you dont do any damage even if you keep a slowmoving overseer with your army. so no, mutas arent viable in ZvT on high level. blade and other toplevel HOTS Z share that opinion because mutas are terrible in a straight up fight and if you cant harrass with them there is simply no reason to get them.
On December 24 2012 13:11 CthulhuWarlord wrote: How do you defend your workers if the Terran opened reapers. I find my queens too slow to catch up to them and my Zerglings get microed. I tried to place down spine crawlers but on these huge maps theres always a blind spot in my defense.
Should have 4 queens 2 at main + natural until you get some roaches out. Be aware of the map so you can see when they pop up and what not.
I had a single game where my opponent went for fastest proxy reaper possible (like 2 rax, just with reaper). I opened 13scout 15 hatch 16pool, which is standard and works really good even vs 11-11 proxy builds.
In the game against the reaper tho, the reaper was IN MY BASE when my pool was about 90% completion. I had absolutely no chance to do anything, by the time the first zerglings pop all my drones are murdered.
Against 11-11 you can buy time with your drones, a reaper just laughs at you if you try to do that. It also doesnt help a single bit to keep all workers in your main until you have units
Anyone has some experience/advice against that?
I do have experience (I also play a guy that only does that lol).
I scout for proxies now at 10 supply (vs the guy I know who does it I do 9 supply). Just scout proxy locations around your base then scout him. This is worth it because proxy reaper is actually really, really powerful and I think does enough damage to kill you if you do 15 hatch 16 pool (which I do to).
On December 24 2012 23:51 v0rtex wrote: I am quite at a loss as to how to deal with widow mines in early game especially if T goes hellion opener and keeps me in my base. Whilst I am either going roaches, lots of slings or some other unit so that i can push out and take my 3rd, T just drops like 6-7 widow mines in places and if is good, even puts hellion over widow mine so that i attack into hellions and as i am about over with say slings, he moves hellion and i lose lots of slings to 2 widow mines. Any help is appreciated, I don't think the game is unbalanced, just have to get used to the new units in my play!
Why dont you consider some kind of 2 base muta play as a solution? If T invest so much money into mines and helions, you should be able to do a lot of damage. On most maps you can walloff your natural with 2evos a banelingnest and queens, which you need anyways. After your mutas pop you also can safely secure your third.
The other option would be to go for a fast third, tech to lair a bit later and go for some early roaches. mine helion play can be totally shutdown by 3-5 roaches and some queens. its quite similiar to WoL tbh.
Doesnt matter which option you choose, you need some spores for early detection and a overseer as soon as lair pops, i also highly recommend overlord speed. I feel too spread out when i go for the earlier third with some roaches, so i prefer 2 base muta into third/fourth
dont go mutas vs mines. dont go muta at all in ZvT. you always trade 100 gas for 25 even if you play perfect. 2 base muta sacs a lot of eco so you need to do damage...but you wont with mines hitting air.
i like to go gasless 4 queen opening and take a 3rd at 47 supply against 1 rax FE. mines wont be there in time and creepspread is near your 3rd by the time mines arrive.
vs factory first i like to go gasless 4 queen opening into lair (so you get mobile detection),
in both builds you need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play.
I don't get what ure talking about, did you even read my post? and how do you think its generally bad to go mutas? im asking because my zvt winrate is very good so far in hots and i always play mutas. I also did never suggested to sac mutas to kill widow mines, a overseer helps with that ^^ Playing perfect, you trade nothing vs 75-25, not 100-100 to 75-25. Furthermore you neither need to sac eco or tech. it depends when you wanna get your mutas out. i get dbl gas at 4.30, 4 queen, speed into lair, as soon as i take my lair i get another two gases. after full saturation dbl evo and bane nest, after that your third. For sure you can also go for some kind of 3 base muta play. Roaches would be a lot more important here against a lot of helions, but thats all personal preference. You cant just generally say something like that ;-)
I would be interested to know in what league youre playing, the viability of builds depends a lot on that.
and no, you dont need to build a roach warren to defend vs mass helion play. buldingplacement, creep, queens lings and blings will do more than fine if you engage correctly
you dont need a roach warren if you go 2 base mutas, thats correct. but i described a build on how to get a pretty fast 3rd.
as for your statement on 2 base muta: ofc you sac eco because you delay your 3rd for a long time. in WoL thats not a problem since your mutas always do some damage. with mines in play you dont do any damage even if you keep a slowmoving overseer with your army. so no, mutas arent viable in ZvT on high level. blade and other toplevel HOTS Z share that opinion because mutas are terrible in a straight up fight and if you cant harrass with them there is simply no reason to get them.
Like i said, for sure there are other builds which allow you to have a quicker third, for that you sac tech. With going 2base mutas, its the other way round. Both is viable, its personal preference. You cant just say style x/y/z is not viable just because some other good players mentioned that there are other styles which they prefer. Honestly i dont think that you have any high level experience of yourself, according to your argumentation. Dont get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with that. But please stop making claims about viability without even writing your level. I dont wanna be cocky or something, but playstyle differes a lot between leagues. I got all my experience from GM level play at hots, so i guess there has to be some viability.
And again, you havent really read what i posted. Why do you even argue with me then? I posted multiple times that i ALWAYS get a overseer with overlord speed as soon as my lair finishes, which is also just a personal preference. I will have a weaker mutaflock at the beginning, so i wont be able to suprise my opponent and kill a ton of workers. But with the small amount of mutas i will be able to deny mines, helions, banshees and other harassment, as well as getting complete mapcontrol and scouting, which allows me to make correct decisions in midgame on what im going to do next. Thats also an advantage. Furthermore, mutas were always terrible in a straight up fight, but thats not what theyre supposed for. If you have any WoL experience you ought to know that. And - for the third time - you can harass with your mutas for sure, you just need to scout the front with an overseer.
@Blade
Yea, i also think like scouting for proxies is the only way to stop that accordingly. I just dont really like the way it is heading to. For a early dronescout i wanna get full information regards the early game - and for that i sac a ton of early eco. With just scouting for proxies i can make sure i dont die to a rush, but the information i wanted to get from the scout will still be missing (exact opening, gas timings, etc.). I dont know if its intentional from blizzard or not to force zerg into scouting for early proxies every time in zvt. But im pretty sure youre right about that, cant imagine a other way to play hatch first safe atm
Btw, i spoke to a mate of mine, he came to the conclusion that 15p16h (standard zvp opening) would may be pretty good and save against proxy reaper. Regarding eco it also doesnt set you behind. I dunno, but 15h15p like in WoL doesnt seem viable anymore the way it was
So far im really unimpressed with the new zerg units in hots, with the only exception being vipers against mech zvt (until vikings come out). What are some good ways to incorporate swarm host and viper in zvp and zvt? To me, ZvP seems like it's actually worse to try the new units..
15 hatch 16 pool is quiet a bit better then 15 pool just in regards you get double queen, faster natural, etc. I do not see proxy reaper being standard because if it were, all a zerg player has to do is scout and then they will be ahead.
Will it be something mixed in? Sure, but I don't think it will force zergs to 15 pool as a standard.
Does anyone have a high level replay that involves pulling ultras or other of your own units into the opponents base? I didn't realize until recently that one can pull friendly units with the viper. :-P a pm would be nice.
On December 25 2012 10:01 KimJongChill wrote: So far im really unimpressed with the new zerg units in hots, with the only exception being vipers against mech zvt (until vikings come out). What are some good ways to incorporate swarm host and viper in zvp and zvt? To me, ZvP seems like it's actually worse to try the new units..
Going speedling roach with swarmhosts and a few spines in ZvP when you go fast 3rd vs Protoss who goes forge FE and then you expect immortal sentry all in, or any all in , swarmhosts do good vs all , all ins, Swarmhost is like zergs anti all in unit IMO.
On December 25 2012 10:14 blade55555 wrote: I disagree Doggy.
15 hatch 16 pool is quiet a bit better then 15 pool just in regards you get double queen, faster natural, etc. I do not see proxy reaper being standard because if it were, all a zerg player has to do is scout and then they will be ahead.
Will it be something mixed in? Sure, but I don't think it will force zergs to 15 pool as a standard.
yea youre right, i think i'll just scout for proxies if i think my opponent may goes for that. Btw was it also the barcode guy u played who did that reaper build? he does that every game^^
On December 25 2012 10:14 blade55555 wrote: I disagree Doggy.
15 hatch 16 pool is quiet a bit better then 15 pool just in regards you get double queen, faster natural, etc. I do not see proxy reaper being standard because if it were, all a zerg player has to do is scout and then they will be ahead.
Will it be something mixed in? Sure, but I don't think it will force zergs to 15 pool as a standard.
yea youre right, i think i'll just scout for proxies if i think my opponent may goes for that. Btw was it also the barcode guy u played who did that reaper build? he does that every game^^
Yes he does that or tries to every game. I lost to it the first game, I scout every game after and he pretty much leaves within 7 minutes xD.
I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote: I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing
If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling.
Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome
i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too.
On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote: I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing
If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling.
Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome
i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too.
Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile.
Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD
On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote: I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing
If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling.
Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome
i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too.
Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile.
Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD
So mutas seem to be the most universal plan, you can do that every MU, right? Hydras seem still too bad in some MU. I'd rather learn how to use less units to full potential than to attempt to play with all of them.
i dont think muta is a really stable option for ZvP still. It still play like a huge gimmick: Do i get 2base allinned? if so then i´m dead ... Does my oponent open 2 Stargate? Welp i´m dead ... If both of these don´t apply however its almost like a autowin because the new Mutas are incredibly strong vs nonstargate openings. I actually find Roach/ Hydra Viper to be the best ZvP strat. The Hydras make the Immortal allin (and every other 2 Base allin) easily holdable but unlike WoL the Hydras still have value after Protoss gets a 3ds because:
1. The Speed upgrade makes Hydras microable so you can split them, run away or dodge storms. 2. The Viper can come soon enough to eliminate threats like colossi to support the Hydralisk.
ZvZ however is a huge Mutafeast. I currently see no disadvantage to building more mutas (sth like a scourge is lacking, maby Blizz will do sth intresting about the Corrupter that dosnt make Mutas unplayable but gives muta/corruptor an edge over pure muta) At least ZvZ has now gotten way more demanding because its not all the muta, the right balance of Lings, Banelings and Groundupgrades seems to be key. If we both mirror eachothers Builds but i get 2 Mutas less in favour of 8 Banelings i probably win beacue i can kill of your lings and either attack your eco with my left lings or tank glaves so my lower muta amount still wins vs your higher one etc.
On December 28 2012 01:33 tehcaekftw wrote: Vipers are Hive tech though, you'd need a pretty early Hive if you want to have vipers out before P gets more than 3-4 collosus.
I've used Roach Hydra with success though.
Well you need a pretty early hive anyway if you want to achive anything vs Protoss anyway (12 minutes hive done so you can get your broods in time is standard in wings)
The Thing with the Viper is that you ONLY need hive. No tech building, no upgrade, just some seconds to drain some energy. And it comes totaly in time for any scary colosus based push, if you time it correctly.
Most of the time I defend 8minute 2 Pushes with Roach Ling or 10+ Minute 2 base pushes (Immo sentry allin, some Blink allins or stargate allins) with Ling Hydra and then transition into a 4th Roaches and a relativly early hive so i get vipers around the 12 minute mark. If he pushes out with about 1-2 colossi before i have Hydras i can still beat it with a good surround of Roach Hydra. Honestly its easier to get Vipers out vs Colossi then corrupters because if you get corrupters youre fucked when you over/under commit to them while 2 Vipers are enough to hold a push.
btw, getting vipers out is the same time like getting a spire for curropters, so its not a huge deal. i also feel like (roach) ling, hydra viper into ultra is the best way to play zvp atm, i also couldnt find a way to use mutas well in zvp so far
its never wrong to build 2-3 infestors (without any upgrades) as soon as you have your pit, you will stockpile a lot of energy and theres nothing more deadly than infestor + viper
Hmm, so some people think hydras are a safer option than mutas in ZvP. However hydras are still not very good in ZvT are they? What about hydras in ZvZ, can they beat mutas?
On December 28 2012 02:45 doggy wrote: couldnt agree more @gCgCrypto
btw, getting vipers out is the same time like getting a spire for curropters, so its not a huge deal. i also feel like (roach) ling, hydra viper into ultra is the best way to play zvp atm, i also couldnt find a way to use mutas well in zvp so far
its never wrong to build 2-3 infestors (without any upgrades) as soon as you have your pit, you will stockpile a lot of energy and theres nothing more deadly than infestor + viper
You are entierly right (in fact its even longer by time because you need a infestation pit first) about how fast you can get corrupters / Vipers. I was more referring to the fact that while 2-3 Vipers are entierly sufficient and will stay usefull throughout the lategame, you´d need 10++ Corruptors to deal with a push at that time and those corruptors would become rather useless later on (i dont feel like Broodlords are much of a option ZvP now anymore)
On December 28 2012 03:44 Azoryen wrote: Hmm, so some people think hydras are a safer option than mutas in ZvP. However hydras are still not very good in ZvT are they? What about hydras in ZvZ, can they beat mutas?
Hydras are AMAZING vs Terran if Terran mechs (Roach Hydra Viper is near unbeatable for mech if pulled off correctly) In ZvZ you have to go Mutas if you plan on not doing a 2base allin. There is no way you will beat Mutas with Hydras, even in a straight army battle, wich should never happen if the Muta player is any good (assuming there are no infestors) Also Infestors dont do much against a good Muta player anymore because it is very easy to dodge the fungal now. For ZvZ i´d recommend 2 Base muta and then try to defend you 3rd for additional gass. ZvZ is incredibly fast paced at the momend. Not only do you need to keep your muta numbers and upgrades up (allways carapace!) but you need to find the right balance of Lings, banelings and ground upgrades to surpass your oponents ground army (when you have lings under a muta fight you have a huge advantage because some of the enemys glaves bounce on the Lings instead of your mutas)
Also there is a lot of counterattacking and multipronged herrass in ZvZ atm. Overall i feel like its the most demanding matchup (at least when it comes to ZvX) but it can be a lot of fun ^^
How do i deal with a marine/tank timing with widow mines and 1-2 hellbats? This was hard enough to hold in WoL, when teh terran pushes in the late midgame with 2/2, but i cant handle it with the widow mines and the hellbats. Roach/hydra doesnt work cause viper is t3. I dont have enough units when i go fast hive. Swarm host is just terrible. Lings get facerolled by al the terran's stuff, and mutas dont work at all because of widow mine. I can't even harrass with them. Does anyone know how to hold this off?
On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote: I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing
If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling.
Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome
i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too.
Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile.
Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD
So mutas seem to be the most universal plan, you can do that every MU, right? Hydras seem still too bad in some MU. I'd rather learn how to use less units to full potential than to attempt to play with all of them.
Hm I go muta/ling/bane zvp half the time depending if he tries stargate play or not (some tosses try blind 2 stargate play to try and hard counter muta, so make sure you have an overseer scout).
I also do roach/hydra into ultralisk/ling/bane/viper as well zvp.
zvt I still think mutas suck really bad thanks to widow mines so I don't really make them, I might make a few but mainly as an anti drop then anything else.
zvz I have been messing around with going muta into swarmhost if they go infestors, but so far most people are still going mutas for the most part which works for me :D.
On December 28 2012 05:02 NonameAI wrote: How do i deal with a marine/tank timing with widow mines and 1-2 hellbats? This was hard enough to hold in WoL, when teh terran pushes in the late midgame with 2/2, but i cant handle it with the widow mines and the hellbats. Roach/hydra doesnt work cause viper is t3. I dont have enough units when i go fast hive. Swarm host is just terrible. Lings get facerolled by al the terran's stuff, and mutas dont work at all because of widow mine. I can't even harrass with them. Does anyone know how to hold this off?
Need to do roach/ling/bane. I think I have vipers out when that 2/2 timing hits but I can't remember, I do get a really fast hive and with flanking roach/ling/bane will hold it pretty well.
On December 28 2012 04:51 doggy wrote: You did understand me wrong bro, i was arguing for vipers instead of curropters like you did, not the other way round :D
I did understand you right, was just clarifying my point ^^
How do u trade efficiently against skytoss? Very hard to deal with... Corruptor melt against new void ray and hydra/infest dont do the job late game imo.
On December 28 2012 08:20 syroz wrote: How do u trade efficiently against skytoss? Very hard to deal with... Corruptor melt against new void ray and hydra/infest dont do the job late game imo.
You need to be aggressive. You can not let protoss get their killer late game air army or you lose.
You need to be denying expansions as long as possible, using hydra/corruptor to be aggressive if he is going mainly air to try and keep it down as low as possible.
If you give the protoss time to get his army of voidray/carrier/templar then you are dead (assuming he is on 4+ bases like you).
In short just be aggressive and try to prevent him from getting that army.
Think of it as opposite of WoL zvp where tosses try to kill zerg before they get their army, now we as zergs have to kill or cripple toss so they can't get their strong army.
On December 28 2012 03:44 Azoryen wrote: Hmm, so some people think hydras are a safer option than mutas in ZvP. However hydras are still not very good in ZvT are they? What about hydras in ZvZ, can they beat mutas?
Eh, hydras are alright vs protoss but mutas are much more effective I think. Sure you can't always go muta but there is really a lot of ways to get them out. Like, obviously if protoss is 2base allinning you want to hold with roachling or whatever but that goes for any matchup really. If protoss opens stargate ill often open with a hydra den to try and force the protoss into colossus tech while I build my spire...if they go robo I go muta and if they keep making air I can go roach hydra corruptor.
Right now mutas are my go-to unit in every matchup, they're really quite great.
On December 28 2012 08:20 syroz wrote: How do u trade efficiently against skytoss? Very hard to deal with... Corruptor melt against new void ray and hydra/infest dont do the job late game imo.
You need to be aggressive. You can not let protoss get their killer late game air army or you lose.
You need to be denying expansions as long as possible, using hydra/corruptor to be aggressive if he is going mainly air to try and keep it down as low as possible.
If you give the protoss time to get his army of voidray/carrier/templar then you are dead (assuming he is on 4+ bases like you).
In short just be aggressive and try to prevent him from getting that army.
Think of it as opposite of WoL zvp where tosses try to kill zerg before they get their army, now we as zergs have to kill or cripple toss so they can't get their strong army.
You're quite right, so far I've had no problem ever beating skytoss with a mostly hydra and corruptor army, just keep attacking and remaxing.
On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote: I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing
If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling.
Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome
i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too.
Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile.
Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD
So mutas seem to be the most universal plan, you can do that every MU, right? Hydras seem still too bad in some MU. I'd rather learn how to use less units to full potential than to attempt to play with all of them.
Hm I go muta/ling/bane zvp half the time depending if he tries stargate play or not (some tosses try blind 2 stargate play to try and hard counter muta, so make sure you have an overseer scout).
I also do roach/hydra into ultralisk/ling/bane/viper as well zvp.
zvt I still think mutas suck really bad thanks to widow mines so I don't really make them, I might make a few but mainly as an anti drop then anything else.
zvz I have been messing around with going muta into swarmhost if they go infestors, but so far most people are still going mutas for the most part which works for me :D.
So let me try to summarize all the great inputs. ZvP you can go muta in some scenarios, but not all (e.g. vs stargate builds). You can go roach/hydra in any case, so if I want a similar build/plan for the entire MU, this is the best option. Ultra/bane/viper is a good lategame composition in either case. Question: if I you go roach/hydra should I get any range upgrades?
ZvT roach/hydra vs mech adding viper later. Vs bio I suppose ling/bane->infestor/ultra?
On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote: I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing
If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling.
Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome
i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too.
Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile.
Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD
So mutas seem to be the most universal plan, you can do that every MU, right? Hydras seem still too bad in some MU. I'd rather learn how to use less units to full potential than to attempt to play with all of them.
Hm I go muta/ling/bane zvp half the time depending if he tries stargate play or not (some tosses try blind 2 stargate play to try and hard counter muta, so make sure you have an overseer scout).
I also do roach/hydra into ultralisk/ling/bane/viper as well zvp.
zvt I still think mutas suck really bad thanks to widow mines so I don't really make them, I might make a few but mainly as an anti drop then anything else.
zvz I have been messing around with going muta into swarmhost if they go infestors, but so far most people are still going mutas for the most part which works for me :D.
So let me try to summarize all the great inputs. ZvP you can go muta in some scenarios, but not all (e.g. vs stargate builds). You can go roach/hydra in any case, so if I want a similar build/plan for the entire MU, this is the best option. Ultra/bane/viper is a good lategame composition in either case. Question: if I you go roach/hydra should I get any range upgrades?
ZvT roach/hydra vs mech adding viper later. Vs bio I suppose ling/bane->infestor/ultra?
ZvZ muta rules atm.
I don't get the ranged attack upgrade, I do get the hydra upgrades though.
Also zvz infestors are as good possibly better then wol infestors and I am players not going mutas again cause infestors so good T_T. But luckily I still get mainly muta wars :D
I dont feel like the infestor is stronger in zvz, at least not vs mutas. The projectile seems very balanced to me vs mutas (you also need to think of the new mutaspeed). As soon as i see an infestor i have time to instantly pull back, you can also do very well regards harassing by splitting up your mutas in tinier groups. It also helps to get banespeed imo, if he really gets your mutas fungalled and wastes all his energy you can kill his entire eco or/and his infestors with ling bling rolling in to all bases. He needs fungal to stop the banes, for that he cant just spend everything on those mutas. Its really amazing to me how much attacking advantage you have with zvz speed blings due the creep in your opponents base. Makes it so unbelieveable hard to defend multiprong ling bling muta attacks
I have played like 5-10 games vs decent opponent who didnt play muta too, so i may be wrong. Thats just the experience i got so far
On December 27 2012 10:06 Azoryen wrote: I'd like to use a similar composition/gameplan for all my match-ups and I'm open to suggestions. I'm a noob, so no need for super optimized builds, just something I can practice and repeat with small adaptations for each MU. (This is HotS, of course, i don't see much point in learning WoL now.)
Also, I'd prefer to have some AA in that composition, so I'm thinking maybe: - roach/hydra - muta/ling/bane
What about lategame, can I go for same composition in every MU? Ultra/infestor maybe? Thx.
zvz: I go 2 base 6-8muta (3rd starts shortly before muta pop) into 3 base 4 hatch roach with +1 and speed zvt: hatch first into ~36 supply roach expand then 1/1 range armor ups into a 4 hatch 3 base hydra+roach 2/2 timing with viper lategame, zvp: 3 base 8 muta into optional reactionary 8 more muta (+1 air attack regardless), then double evo into 4 base 5 hatch ling bling allin shortly before he gets storm done, vs person attempting phoenix vs muta going for 2/2 roach hydra timing
If you had to stick with one in all matchups id suggest roach hydra viper, infestor ling ultra, or muta ling bling You could really do any of those depending on your playstyle. If you tend to throw away your army for no reason you could go with roach hydra, if you like to counter attack you could go muta ling bling.
Infestors are weaker than wol, ultras are stronger, hydras are stronger, vipers are awesome
i dont experiment much with swarm hosts but im sure theyre good too.
Ah infestors are arguably better then WoL infestors with 10 range and near instant projectile.
Also out of curiousity zvp why don't you go ultras? Muta/ling/bane into ultra so strong you should try it instead of trying to ling/bane all in xD
So mutas seem to be the most universal plan, you can do that every MU, right? Hydras seem still too bad in some MU. I'd rather learn how to use less units to full potential than to attempt to play with all of them.
Hm I go muta/ling/bane zvp half the time depending if he tries stargate play or not (some tosses try blind 2 stargate play to try and hard counter muta, so make sure you have an overseer scout).
I also do roach/hydra into ultralisk/ling/bane/viper as well zvp.
zvt I still think mutas suck really bad thanks to widow mines so I don't really make them, I might make a few but mainly as an anti drop then anything else.
zvz I have been messing around with going muta into swarmhost if they go infestors, but so far most people are still going mutas for the most part which works for me :D.
So let me try to summarize all the great inputs. ZvP you can go muta in some scenarios, but not all (e.g. vs stargate builds). You can go roach/hydra in any case, so if I want a similar build/plan for the entire MU, this is the best option. Ultra/bane/viper is a good lategame composition in either case. Question: if I you go roach/hydra should I get any range upgrades?
ZvT roach/hydra vs mech adding viper later. Vs bio I suppose ling/bane->infestor/ultra?
ZvZ muta rules atm.
I allways get 3/3 for my roaches and Hydras in ZvP because i like to have some (especially) Hydras in my composition and Roach hydra is allways a good remax composition if you managed to kill all the high tech Protoss units and he is flooding you with stalkers. Thats also my way to go vs Skytoss if i didnt manage to kill kim inbefore. Max on Corrupters and kill off all the Air and colossi (while loosing my corrupters) and then remax with roach hydra while spines hold mach his stalkers.
For ZvT i feel like you really NEED to go muta first, if not you get demolished by Drops with the new medivac. Its really unlikely to catch a medivac with fungal nowadays, if the Terran player pays attention. Same for Hydras. If you fear widdow mines, thats what doggy tought me ^^, keep a overseer with your mutas and 10 mutas can kill the mine before it shoots. The rest about ZvT what you summarized is correct. Muta ling bane into Ultra ling bane viper is my way to go (with the leftover mutas to kill off medivacs and vikings)
how can zerg beat reapers + mines? terran just opens with 1 rax reaper + factory and 2nd gas, then he adds 2 more rax, making speed for reapers and +2 CC so he have like 8-10 speed reapers and some mines, and zerg must build 3-4 roaches per base and 1 spine, or he will lose tons of workers, cuz reapers are really fast + they have heal, but when you build 8 early roaches and don't attack with them, you already economically behind and finally mines don't let you take 3rd, cuz you can't move out of natural, so there is no way to allin him, and mutas also doesn't work, because if you will go mutas, you should skip roaches and then reapers will kill a lot of workers, and mines can counter muta really easy
On December 28 2012 23:09 everdrone wrote: how can zerg beat reapers + mines? terran just opens with 1 rax reaper + factory and 2nd gas, then he adds 2 more rax, making speed for reapers and +2 CC so he have like 8-10 speed reapers and some mines, and zerg must build 3-4 roaches per base and 1 spine, or he will lose tons of workers, cuz reapers are really fast + they have heal, but when you build 8 early roaches and don't attack with them, you already economically behind and finally mines don't let you take 3rd, cuz you can't move out of natural, so there is no way to allin him, and mutas also doesn't work, because if you will go mutas, you should skip roaches and then reapers will kill a lot of workers, and mines can counter muta really easy
Its easier said then done but you could try to go for some 2 base muta with a lot of queens(6-8 i guess). Queens do very well against that push, especially with transfuse, and you can also use them for creep spread. Muta would punish this really hard, mines dont do well against them. You just need to scout the front with an overseer and either snipe or if you dont have enough mutas you fly around them.
I think the same should work with 4-6 Queens and 2-4 roaches and a faster third instead of fast lair. You really need to have good overlord spread for map vision to not lose tons of drones, so its always very tricky to deal with. The sooner you go for three base, the easier you missposition your few units
Sentry Immortal All-In. Dumber and more powerful than ever. How do you beat it now?
Before i'd do a 7min macro hatch, make many many lings and force forcefield waste at his base. Although it seems now no matter what I do i end up loosing, again. Lings? herpaderp more zealots. Roaches? Not enough to even force anything at his base at that time.
Is it still the same counter as in WoL, or something completely diffrent
On December 29 2012 05:54 tehcaekftw wrote: Sentry Immortal All-In. Dumber and more powerful than ever. How do you beat it now?
Before i'd do a 7min macro hatch, make many many lings and force forcefield waste at his base. Although it seems now no matter what I do i end up loosing, again. Lings? herpaderp more zealots. Roaches? Not enough to even force anything at his base at that time.
Is it still the same counter as in WoL, or something completely diffrent
Sentry immortal all in is actually easier to beat in hots then wol. Make swarmhosts with roach/ling support and your golden. I haven't lost to immortal all in yet cause everytime i see it coming I make swarmhosts and beat it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
How many, and when to get Lair and such? Do you just burrow them at your ramp or something? I could imagine protoss would just go kill your Third and then..
Why would you use swarm hosts.. If you identify immortal allin, get lair before ling speed, then get hydra den and range upgrade asap. Then hydraling it to the easiest win ever.
Speaking of the devil, has anyone figured a legit way to use swarm hosts yet?
On December 29 2012 06:20 tehcaekftw wrote: How many, and when to get Lair and such? Do you just burrow them at your ramp or something? I could imagine protoss would just go kill your Third and then..
Just make as many as possible, and your third should be close so if he keeps trying to jump around you just go to the base burrow - repeat - etc. He'll have to waste FF as well as again it's never a good idea to trade units for free units.
On December 29 2012 06:28 Atthasit wrote: Why would you use swarm hosts.. If you identify immortal allin, get lair before ling speed, then get hydra den and range upgrade asap. Then hydraling it to the easiest win ever.
Speaking of the devil, has anyone figured a legit way to use swarm hosts yet?
Even going hydra/ling immortal/sentry can still beat it if they use FF's good. Swarmhosts I have never lost to an immortal all in using swarmhosts. Then after you hold it you can go counter aggression and pretty much win right there (although you can also with hydra/ling if you hold with it).
Also swarmhosts can be pretty good zvp, swarmhost/corruptor is actually pretty strong, but you probably won't win the game it will just be a contain while you tech and expand. Think lurker contain in bw if you ever played that.
I think swarmhosts have potential to be decent in zvz, but I need more testing in that department vs good players, I rarely lose when i go muta - swarmhost zvz if they go infestor first, but I am not playing to many pro zergs so it's hard to say.
It has all my hots replays from beginning of beta to december 20'th. 234 reps, I don't feel like looking through them all to try and find an immortal all in as I can't remember the last time I played vs one, early in hots I faced it and I have faced it a few times past 2 months but can't remember when or anything sorry xD.
I can tell you the maps to look for.
Daybreak and Akilon wastes (the desert 2 player map). I know I got immo sentry all ind there.
Is there any way for a late game zerg to beat a max supply Toss Carrier/Void/HT army?
If there is not, (as I've heard that the only way is to not let them get that) what exactly is the timing to attack protoss when they are going for that and what unit comp should I have?
blade, if the toss camps on 3 bases and gets lets say collosi, tempest, voids, oracles, stalker they will just crush ur contain.... so what do u do to prevent this? Do u pull back ur swarm hosts when u see him pushing out, and what should be ur later transition to defeat sky toss death ball??
On December 29 2012 22:14 Siggeh wrote: blade, if the toss camps on 3 bases and gets lets say collosi, tempest, voids, oracles, stalker they will just crush ur contain.... so what do u do to prevent this? Do u pull back ur swarm hosts when u see him pushing out, and what should be ur later transition to defeat sky toss death ball??
but that tactic is to beat sentry immortal allin
protoss dosnt go tempest/void/oracle/stalker/collosus when they do a sentry immortal allin
Obviously your transition is going to be somewhere like attack him and win with whatever you have while maxing out on roachhydra
On December 29 2012 21:33 Disastorm wrote: Is there any way for a late game zerg to beat a max supply Toss Carrier/Void/HT army?
If there is not, (as I've heard that the only way is to not let them get that) what exactly is the timing to attack protoss when they are going for that and what unit comp should I have?
If the toss controls correctly no there isn't. You as a zerg need to be aggressive and prevent giving him the time necessary to get that composition.
On December 29 2012 22:14 Siggeh wrote: blade, if the toss camps on 3 bases and gets lets say collosi, tempest, voids, oracles, stalker they will just crush ur contain.... so what do u do to prevent this? Do u pull back ur swarm hosts when u see him pushing out, and what should be ur later transition to defeat sky toss death ball??
Well like I said you should be teching, expanding while the contain happens. You won't be able to kill him (if he plays smart) with the swarmhosts, but you should be able to contain him for a decent amount of time. Then once he starts breaking out you should be remaxing on another composition aka like ultra/hydra if you go fast hive like I do and stuff.
But I don't normally play swarmhosts because I find them not the best and roach/hydra into fast hive into ultra/hydra/ling/bane/viper to be stronger imo.
Standard colossus stalker sentry deathball + a lot of tempest. What's the proper way to play against this? Up until 21st minute I was convinced he only had a few tempest to support his ball, snipe my vipers and such, but even if I knew he was this tempest heavy I'm still unsure what to do. Unit tester doesn't work for some reason so I really don't know how corruptors fare against them, like how many I would need. Help please
hey, i'm sorry, but does the skytoss really works in pvz on master+ level? maybe i'm executing it badly, but i die to roach/hydra pushes every time or at least i fall really behind.
pvz was always my favourite matchup but i'm out of ideas in hots.
could you upload some pvz replays from high level play?
--- wrong topic, but it is regarding your race at least :p
I've been vs. someone who opened Phoenixes, then started making voidrays or carriers or whatever other air units, i just pushed them with hydra/ling, maybe roaches too and pretty much win the game at that point.
I just dont think you can OPEN air only, you're going to die to anything that can shoot up in the early midgame.
A lategame transition would probably work though, heard carrier tempest or something should be quite strong.
tehcaekftw Denmark. December 29 2012 22:27. Posts 117 PM Profile Quote # On December 29 2012 22:14 Siggeh wrote: blade, if the toss camps on 3 bases and gets lets say collosi, tempest, voids, oracles, stalker they will just crush ur contain.... so what do u do to prevent this? Do u pull back ur swarm hosts when u see him pushing out, and what should be ur later transition to defeat sky toss death ball??
but that tactic is to beat sentry immortal allin
protoss dosnt go tempest/void/oracle/stalker/collosus when they do a sentry immortal allin
Obviously your transition is going to be somewhere like attack him and win with whatever you have while maxing out on roachhydra
I was asking a different question about a different scenario... immortal sentry allin is pretty much the easiest thing to play against ZvP in Hots. Skytoss is not, and it seems like all protosses transition into skytoss or some kind of hybrid skytoss composition when moving into the late game which I have huuge problems dealing with.
On December 31 2012 05:51 tehcaekftw wrote: I've been vs. someone who opened Phoenixes, then started making voidrays or carriers or whatever other air units, i just pushed them with hydra/ling, maybe roaches too and pretty much win the game at that point.
I just dont think you can OPEN air only, you're going to die to anything that can shoot up in the early midgame.
A lategame transition would probably work though, heard carrier tempest or something should be quite strong.
Yeah they can't go air all game. They need to get colossi and a ground army and when it hits late game they can start transitioning into pure air.
What might be more efficient...vs (HOTS MMM/Marine Tank/MMM Tank
Old style, Ling/Bane/Infestor/ultra
Ultra/Ling/Hydra/Viper Ultra/Ling/Muta
What im trying to get at here...is can the Ultra be the new substitute for banes (in the late game)? Cleave does essentially the same dmg as a bane, and essentially they can get more shots off since its an attack not a suicidal unit. With the lack of banes, and possibly infestors you can supplement your army with more vipers and hydras/muta (to focus down dropships).
I think for zvp roach hydra with drops early-ish is really strong in what I've seen so far. I usually get +1 ranged then add a second evo and get +2/+1 ranged/carapace and go ling/roach/hydra for quite a while and then slowly tech up to some vipers + broodlords if necessary. It seems like a good way to prevent the protoss from getting to the really strong lategame that they are capable of.
On December 31 2012 15:47 Voodoo[z] wrote: I think for zvp roach hydra with drops early-ish is really strong in what I've seen so far. I usually get +1 ranged then add a second evo and get +2/+1 ranged/carapace and go ling/roach/hydra for quite a while and then slowly tech up to some vipers + broodlords if necessary. It seems like a good way to prevent the protoss from getting to the really strong lategame that they are capable of.
That only really works if the protoss stays on classic crappy Gateway units+colosi tech, HOTS most top toss go right for sky toss.
It's not like WOL where toss has to "transition" into sky toss for late game, HOTS makes it so toss can open double stargate off a FFE and be safe from early attacks via msc/oracle worker harassment/voids ect. Broodlords near useless vs protoss in Hots 100% wast.
Ultras are decent if the protoss stays on weak gateway units all game, (most wont ) You would need to do large amounts of dmg with your drops, or you will lose.
A standard roach/hydra/viper vs a colosi based army, and standard Infestor/hydra/corrupter vs the popular skytoss+storm/zealot armies. Been watching alot of Pro HOTS matches , rootcatz ect who steam often and thats exactly what they been doing as far as standard macro games go.
On December 31 2012 12:01 RimJaynor wrote: Just a thought....
What might be more efficient...vs (HOTS MMM/Marine Tank/MMM Tank
Old style, Ling/Bane/Infestor/ultra
Ultra/Ling/Hydra/Viper Ultra/Ling/Muta
What im trying to get at here...is can the Ultra be the new substitute for banes (in the late game)? Cleave does essentially the same dmg as a bane, and essentially they can get more shots off since its an attack not a suicidal unit. With the lack of banes, and possibly infestors you can supplement your army with more vipers and hydras/muta (to focus down dropships).
Is this viable?
In WoL banelings are generally used as stepping stones to higher tech as opposed to part of the main composition. Once hive tech is up, you could use the gas you didn't spend on banelings elsewhere. I see them with the same role in HotS. Ultras come out too late to defend pre-hive timing attacks so you need either banelings or infestors.
What do you think about skipping roach warren in ZvP until much later and get a faster lair + hydra den? My reasoning is: - hydras are better against immortal/sentry and obviously air - roaches also require lair speed, so not very different timings for both units to be 100% effective, which is compensated by earlier lair.
Problem would be holding 8min pushes like 7gate, but you can make the roach warren at 6:30 as usual if you scout that, otherwise go lair with first 100 gas. Am I missing any obvious reason to build a roach warren other than holding these earlier pushes like 7gate?
On January 06 2013 02:39 tehcaekftw wrote: Someone explain muta vs muta zvz
is fucking retarded, no amtter what i do i loose it
If i upgrade lings to get that advantage, i loose. Double spire upgrades, i loose. No ling ups, single spire, i loose. Fast gasses, i loose.
i just dont know how to play this fucking retarded matchup anymore
Well don't get ling upgrades and don't double spire.
Get your 2nd gas at 5:50 and then at 6:30 go lair and take your 3rd and 4'th gas. Then once you drone up a bit make mass ling/bane and do some pressure while taking a third and starting your spire. Then after this period if both get mutas out then try to be aggressive, but not to aggressive.
Send some lings for a counter attack while attacking another point if possible.
Make sure you don't miss to many injects and you are always macroing.
For muta upgrades get + 1 armor first, then +1 attack, then +2 armor if the game is still going.
Just started playing the beta, wondering how much defense do you really need against the 2 port skytoss harassment? I think i've been either overdefending then getting crushed lategame, or underdefending and just losing all my drones to oracle/pheonix.
On January 06 2013 13:38 cerebralz wrote: Just started playing the beta, wondering how much defense do you really need against the 2 port skytoss harassment? I think i've been either overdefending then getting crushed lategame, or underdefending and just losing all my drones to oracle/pheonix.
too vague a question depends on how much of waht they make
a couple spores should be enough to scare them off and then you can get hydras and either go for a counter or use them to help defend the more oracls and phoenixs the worse there army will be
On January 06 2013 02:39 tehcaekftw wrote: Someone explain muta vs muta zvz
is fucking retarded, no amtter what i do i loose it
If i upgrade lings to get that advantage, i loose. Double spire upgrades, i loose. No ling ups, single spire, i loose. Fast gasses, i loose.
i just dont know how to play this fucking retarded matchup anymore
You basically want to take a fast expansion and get really fast banelings to either be aggressive with or defend against a ling swell. Take a fast lair and begin to save up on gas and drop a spire. Stock up as much gas as you can without dying and as soon as spire pops, make sure you have gas/min and supply saved up so you can make 5-8 mutas right away. As soon as they pop go do damage with them and just spend as much gas on muta as you can. get +1 armor for the mutas and keep making them.
If he is going roach he will try to counter you with a big roach swell, but spines and muta/ling defend this really well. I also like trying to snipe his hydra den if he is going that route
dont upgrade zerglings or double spire. Dont transition out of muta/ling. Make a couple banes if you have to, but the rest of your gas goes mutas
How are you guys handling ZvP? It's a very tough match up for me right now. Using in-game stastistics, my ZvZ is 50% exactly, my ZvT is 67% (ultras are good) and my ZvP is 34%
I open 3hatch gasless against FFE, but most of my wins are when they 1gate expand since you can kill them with early game compositions like roach/ling or roach/hydra before they get colossi out
but as soon as the mid-game starts and everyone's on 3 bases I have no idea how to kill them. Mutas are worthless since they don't stop you from dying. Roach/Hydra/Viper doesn't work if they hit a critical mass of colossi. You can't get ultras out fast enough to not die to a timing and even if you do get them out, voidrays and storm are pretty fucking good.
Really need some help here. Alternatively, if anyone has been experimenting with good all-in/cheese in ZvP that would be good too. I just want to win
On January 07 2013 11:52 RedZ wrote: Now, I have my own question
How are you guys handling ZvP? It's a very tough match up for me right now. Using in-game stastistics, my ZvZ is 50% exactly, my ZvT is 67% (ultras are good) and my ZvP is 34%
I open 3hatch gasless against FFE, but most of my wins are when they 1gate expand since you can kill them with early game compositions like roach/ling or roach/hydra before they get colossi out
but as soon as the mid-game starts and everyone's on 3 bases I have no idea how to kill them. Mutas are worthless since they don't stop you from dying. Roach/Hydra/Viper doesn't work if they hit a critical mass of colossi. You can't get ultras out fast enough to not die to a timing and even if you do get them out, voidrays and storm are pretty fucking good.
Really need some help here. Alternatively, if anyone has been experimenting with good all-in/cheese in ZvP that would be good too. I just want to win
Hm roach/hydra aggression with vipers while you say vipers are useless I heavily disagree. Doing a roach/hydra/corruptor timing then adding vipers is pretty strong to but you do have to transition out of it.
You should be adding infestors at some point as well.
I saw idra doing a ling double upgrade into very fast hive into ultra/ling/bane/infestor with corruptors if the toss is going heavy air. He beat seed with it.
I just started playing Heart of the Swarm, and while I've been playing (I'm Zerg, by the way), I've noticed a few standards throughout my game, i.e. Protoss gets Mothership Core, Terran sends two Widow Mines to my base at a consistent time, etc. I would just like to know, what have the standards for ZvP, ZvT, and ZvZ developed to up to this point, and what sort of opening and mid-game should I go with? Thanks.
I don't know where to post it, so I will try here. What do you guys think about idea of changing banelings, so if you detonate them manually (by pressing hotkey), they will hit air above them? And this is why it would be good: In ZvT it won't change that much. But, there is a little problem right now. Mutas are not longer a good option, due to widow mines. So zerg doesn't have any good AA to deal with new faster medivacs, banshee etc. Baneling won't kill, won't even take 50% of its HP but still, it will be always an option, and it might help. In ZvP Protoss is often going for stargate, or even double stargate. Zerg needs to go either hydra, or spire, as I feel infestors won't be enough. So banelings might help a bit, and maybe won't force tech swich. (For example I enjoy playing ling/bling/ultra in both ZvT and ZvP, and I have no AA at all there).
But here is the real thing. ZvZ. Right now it's in 95% muta vs muta. Hydras just don't do their job against mutas. Infestors are still good but it's not game ending when you see those. As long as I like muta vs muta, I feel that there should be more options. My little change could add a lot of them. It will add some more micro, you will need to watch not to detonate blings on lings under mutas etc. And most important, one hit won't end the game, and kill all mutas, like fungal does.
On January 07 2013 14:30 MuffinCookie wrote: Greetings everyone.
I just started playing Heart of the Swarm, and while I've been playing (I'm Zerg, by the way), I've noticed a few standards throughout my game, i.e. Protoss gets Mothership Core, Terran sends two Widow Mines to my base at a consistent time, etc. I would just like to know, what have the standards for ZvP, ZvT, and ZvZ developed to up to this point, and what sort of opening and mid-game should I go with? Thanks.
I'm about platinum/diamond and while I see lots of different stuff (especially cheese) there are a few trends I've noticed
ZvT - I open hatch first, 3-4 queen with a relatively fast gas around 20 supply and then I stay on line/bane and take a fast third and get a really fast hive into ultralisks. Does well against everything except a thor ball with a lot of tanks. Against bio, Ultra/ling/bling/viper is really, really good and it'll work against mech too, but not quite as well depending on how many thors to tanks he has. If he is going mech, I favor an ultra/hydra style leaning more towards ultras.
ZvP - I struggle here so I really can't comment, sorry. But I was watching Idra play today and he won a couple games off Seed with ling/bling/muta and ling/bling/infestor/ultra, neither of which I have tried. (thanks blade for the suggestion). But your opener is still 3hatch gasless against FFE. You'll see some 1gate expands, however, that's pretty easy to respond to. Just 15pool/16hatch and take a fast gas and check if he is cheesing you or just expanding. I feel like you can punish him if he expands with roach/ling and definitely with roach/hydra
ZvZ - Mutas are the game here. If you do anything else, you basically lose. I like a safe opener of either speedling expand or 14p/16h and fast speed and banelings. Either defend or be aggressive from here, but ultimately you want to get into mutas and never stop. Even if he goes roach/hydra, the upgraded mutalisks are tough enough to snipe the hydra den and assist in a fight.
I always build a few vipers when I get hive, too, but the effectiveness varies. I might not be that good with them. Blade or someone more educated, feel free to correct this write up
On November 11 2012 08:14 gCgCrypto wrote: hey, i need help beating Terran in ZvT ... Terran just goes Viking and Widdow mine, Tons and tons of widdow mines. Because of the Vikings i have no detection eccept for sporecrawlers and the widdow mines kil EVERYTHING... I played a 1 hour long game in wich i tried Broodlord corruptor infestor, wich got obliterated, i tried ultras, swarm hosts, Zergling Baneling, Roaches, all got obliterated. Hydras seemed to work best but his vikings picking off my Overseers made this fail aswell.
I feel like there is literaly nothing, no unit compositon, that can beat this simple midgame composition. Enyone having to deal with this aswell? Help?
Edit: After more games vs this i found my Misstake, I opened Mutas vs this and thus his Widdow mine numbers got out of hand. Should´ve just started with Swarm hosts to slowly push hi back and use spores for detection.
The solution is simple. INFESTOR. If u see that comp, just max out on hydra infestors. Why do you ask? Fungal REVEALS mines and that is the only detection that cannot be sniped by vikings. If vikings land, well, your hydras will make mince meat out of them while they're transforming for them to be even close to being cost efficient. If you haven't noticed, mass mines are the clear answer to attack move units. But when infestors are in play, they won't even touch your army.
On January 07 2013 18:09 RedZ wrote: ZvP - I struggle here so I really can't comment, sorry. But I was watching Idra play today and he won a couple games off Seed with ling/bling/muta and ling/bling/infestor/ultra, neither of which I have tried. (thanks blade for the suggestion). But your opener is still 3hatch gasless against FFE. You'll see some 1gate expands, however, that's pretty easy to respond to. Just 15pool/16hatch and take a fast gas and check if he is cheesing you or just expanding. I feel like you can punish him if he expands with roach/ling and definitely with roach/hydra
I'm about the same lv as you are on the beta (which mean not much right? :p) but I feel very confident in ZvP, especially against any ground army. My general game-plan is Ling/Hydra (with range upgrade) pressure (which is safe until AOE are out and very efficient at dealing damage and pressuring the third) into roach/hydra/viper (I out-right kill the protoss with this or contain him on 3-Bases while trading very efficiently with his high gaz units, building lots of static defenses and teching to everything I want) into Ultra and everything else. A mid-game with Mutas or infestors (with transitions into Ultra) is also good but I feel weaker with this against everything the protoss can throw at me on three bases. In general, I feel like the ultimate composition a zerg army has to reach against a ground protoss is something like ling/bling/infestor/ultra.
Against skytoss I try to kill him with ling/hydra and if I'm not able to, mix in corruptors and infestors but it's a bit hard if it gets out of hand.
What I find hard is to do early damage to the toss with something like fast roaches or baneling bust. I feel like with the MSC it's near impossible to pull out these kind of agression.
For muta upgrades get + 1 armor first, then +1 attack, then +2 armor if the game is still going.
I never understood why get +1 attack over +2 armor. Is it "only" because +2 armor take longer and cost more ressources, so that if one player go attack and the other armor, the player going attack upgrade can hit a timing with 1-1 against 0-1?
On January 07 2013 14:30 MuffinCookie wrote: Greetings everyone.
I just started playing Heart of the Swarm, and while I've been playing (I'm Zerg, by the way), I've noticed a few standards throughout my game, i.e. Protoss gets Mothership Core, Terran sends two Widow Mines to my base at a consistent time, etc. I would just like to know, what have the standards for ZvP, ZvT, and ZvZ developed to up to this point, and what sort of opening and mid-game should I go with? Thanks.
I'm about platinum/diamond and while I see lots of different stuff (especially cheese) there are a few trends I've noticed
ZvT - I open hatch first, 3-4 queen with a relatively fast gas around 20 supply and then I stay on line/bane and take a fast third and get a really fast hive into ultralisks. Does well against everything except a thor ball with a lot of tanks. Against bio, Ultra/ling/bling/viper is really, really good and it'll work against mech too, but not quite as well depending on how many thors to tanks he has. If he is going mech, I favor an ultra/hydra style leaning more towards ultras.
I've heard of this 3-4 queen style before, I think from Wings of the Liberty too. What are the timings for the 3rd and 4th queen? Do you just make them right after the 1st and 2nd queens? What I have been doing so far is just a 14hatch/15pool with two queens almost immediately after the pool pops (preferably producing simultaneously). And then I just wing it. Which is terrible, because it works in the Bronze League. My placement matches went pretty badly.
And for ZvP, I played against someone who didn't do the usual FFE, and went for a Mothership Core/Gateway push which basically killed me. In this case, I wouldn't take a third, right? Thanks.
*Edit: I have one more question. I really like using the Swarm Host, it seems to just kill things really well. Even if it feels like I have a smaller/weaker army, everything on the ground just dies to Locusts. What goes well with Swarm Hosts? Thanks again.
Muta/Ling(/bling) midgame vs Protoss is pretty good. Of course, as it has always been, you cannot engage protoss' army directly with that combo if they do decide to move out. Mutas should be flying around, harrassing stuff, picking off workers and pylons and critical tech buildings, maybe even army units. Mutas are supposed ot keep a protoss in their bases, until you can get out Hive tech, namely transition into ling/bling/ultra/viper, and at this point he is probably just gonna have a big army of stalkers and collosus, which is really easy for that combo to beat.
If he DOES move out, you simply basetrade him. Your army, his base. Mutas kill stuff really really fast, so does zerglings. You will most of the time win a basetrade if you react fast enough and dont loose your army while moving across the map.
I've heard of this 3-4 queen style before, I think from Wings of the Liberty too. What are the timings for the 3rd and 4th queen? Do you just make them right after the 1st and 2nd queens? What I have been doing so far is just a 14hatch/15pool with two queens almost immediately after the pool pops (preferably producing simultaneously). And then I just wing it. Which is terrible, because it works in the Bronze League. My placement matches went pretty badly.
And for ZvP, I played against someone who didn't do the usual FFE, and went for a Mothership Core/Gateway push which basically killed me. In this case, I wouldn't take a third, right? Thanks.
*Edit: I have one more question. I really like using the Swarm Host, it seems to just kill things really well. Even if it feels like I have a smaller/weaker army, everything on the ground just dies to Locusts. What goes well with Swarm Hosts? Thanks again.
Yes, 3rd and 4th queen almost immediatly after your first two pop. 15hatch/16pool is a bit better though since you will be able to start your first two queens at the same time
and if they open gate expand or basically anything except FFE, you need to send an overlord in their base at 5:30 to try and see their tech (dark shrine, stargate, a shit ton of warp gates). If that happens, no third until they expand
re: swarm hosts - I dont use swarm hosts, but i imagine corruptors and/or hydralisks as they will cover the air while swarm hosts handle the ground
On January 09 2013 08:58 raybasto wrote: I'm starting to get into HotS. What are the standard strategies and unit compositions for each match up?
From what I read, Roach/Hydra/Viper for ZvT and Muta/Ling/Bane for ZvZ? Is that correct? What about ZvP?
Where can I find good vods/reps?
Um roach/hydra/viper is good vs mech not good vs bio zvt.
Not sure but I think the best composition late game zvt that isn't bl/corr/infestor is ultra/ling/bane/viper/infestor.
I would watch idra vods and you will see what he does in all the match ups so far.
zvz is muta for the most part.
zvp is roach/hydra/viper, muta/ling/bane - ultra.
So still Ling/Bane/Infestor midgame into Broodlord/Infestor/Ling/Bane late game ZvT?
How is ZvZ late game? Just upgraded Muta/Ling/Bane?
um zvt it might be the best not sure I go fast ultra with ling/bane/ultra/infestor/viper. But that's a lot harder to use then bl/corr/infestor so not sure. I honestly have no idea if terran can beat bl/corr/infestor or not in hots.
zvz late game its only muta if both players go muta.
I am only in gold league (in hots) but I have been doing fine in ZvZ without going muta (I think I'm 7 wins 2 losses).
I start building roaches once I'm saturated on 2 bases. 2-3 spores at each base ~8 minutes. I throw down a nydus before I get infesters. When they start harassing with mutas, I drop a nydus worm near their base (usually in their third) and I'm almost always able to do some nice damage, maybe even snipe their natural if they invested too much in mutas. I also drop a third while I'm doing this. The nydus removes a lot of the mutas map control, and the roaches will usually be able to do more damage then the mutas will. (Edit: If you have burrow you can even snipe their spire or spawning pool or roach warren if they forget detection)
Usually they will have some defenses so the roaches won't be enough to win, so I just start getting some infestors (4-6) and then start getting hydras. Once the infestors are out you are in a very good position. They should be behind economically (can snipe third with nydus if they try to take it) and infestors are no where near as bad against mutas in HoTs as people are making them out to be (once you get the timing down).
Anyone else refusing to go muta vs muta and getting away with it at a higher level? Or is this only working because I'm in gold?
On January 09 2013 11:22 ghost_face wrote: I am only in gold league (in hots) but I have been doing fine in ZvZ without going muta (I think I'm 7 wins 2 losses).
I start building roaches once I'm saturated on 2 bases. 2-3 spores at each base ~8 minutes. I throw down a nydus before I get infesters. When they start harassing with mutas, I drop a nydus worm near their base (usually in their third) and I'm almost always able to do some nice damage, maybe even snipe their natural if they invested too much in mutas. I also drop a third while I'm doing this. The nydus removes a lot of the mutas map control, and the roaches will usually be able to do more damage then the mutas will. (Edit: If you have burrow you can even snipe their spire or spawning pool or roach warren if they forget detection)
Usually they will have some defenses so the roaches won't be enough to win, so I just start getting some infestors (4-6) and then start getting hydras. Once the infestors are out you are in a very good position. They should be behind economically (can snipe third with nydus if they try to take it) and infestors are no where near as bad against mutas in HoTs as people are making them out to be (once you get the timing down).
Anyone else refusing to go muta vs muta and getting away with it at a higher level? Or is this only working because I'm in gold?
that third should never go up agaisnt a competent muta player until you have hydras or infesters to babysit it and should have there third up around the time the mutas start popping
On January 09 2013 11:22 ghost_face wrote: I am only in gold league (in hots) but I have been doing fine in ZvZ without going muta (I think I'm 7 wins 2 losses).
I start building roaches once I'm saturated on 2 bases. 2-3 spores at each base ~8 minutes. I throw down a nydus before I get infesters. When they start harassing with mutas, I drop a nydus worm near their base (usually in their third) and I'm almost always able to do some nice damage, maybe even snipe their natural if they invested too much in mutas. I also drop a third while I'm doing this. The nydus removes a lot of the mutas map control, and the roaches will usually be able to do more damage then the mutas will. (Edit: If you have burrow you can even snipe their spire or spawning pool or roach warren if they forget detection)
Usually they will have some defenses so the roaches won't be enough to win, so I just start getting some infestors (4-6) and then start getting hydras. Once the infestors are out you are in a very good position. They should be behind economically (can snipe third with nydus if they try to take it) and infestors are no where near as bad against mutas in HoTs as people are making them out to be (once you get the timing down).
Anyone else refusing to go muta vs muta and getting away with it at a higher level? Or is this only working because I'm in gold?
that third should never go up agaisnt a competent muta player until you have hydras or infesters to babysit it and should have there third up around the time the mutas start popping
What usually happens is that I nydus into their third when their mutas hit my base, so I can force a cancel on the third/snipe it and then start to damage the nat.
The mutas may be able to delay my third, you're right, but it depends on whether they want to bring them back to defend or not. The lack of mid game map control is definitely the biggest weakness.
On January 09 2013 11:22 ghost_face wrote: I am only in gold league (in hots) but I have been doing fine in ZvZ without going muta (I think I'm 7 wins 2 losses).
I start building roaches once I'm saturated on 2 bases. 2-3 spores at each base ~8 minutes. I throw down a nydus before I get infesters. When they start harassing with mutas, I drop a nydus worm near their base (usually in their third) and I'm almost always able to do some nice damage, maybe even snipe their natural if they invested too much in mutas. I also drop a third while I'm doing this. The nydus removes a lot of the mutas map control, and the roaches will usually be able to do more damage then the mutas will. (Edit: If you have burrow you can even snipe their spire or spawning pool or roach warren if they forget detection)
Usually they will have some defenses so the roaches won't be enough to win, so I just start getting some infestors (4-6) and then start getting hydras. Once the infestors are out you are in a very good position. They should be behind economically (can snipe third with nydus if they try to take it) and infestors are no where near as bad against mutas in HoTs as people are making them out to be (once you get the timing down).
Anyone else refusing to go muta vs muta and getting away with it at a higher level? Or is this only working because I'm in gold?
that third should never go up agaisnt a competent muta player until you have hydras or infesters to babysit it and should have there third up around the time the mutas start popping
What usually happens is that I nydus into their third when their mutas hit my base, so I can force a cancel on the third/snipe it and then start to damage the nat.
The mutas may be able to delay my third, you're right, but it depends on whether they want to bring them back to defend or not. The lack of mid game map control is definitely the biggest weakness.
your relying on them not noticing the nydus, if they do you just lose immediately
also yhey should have cleaned up any OLs near the third
On January 07 2013 14:30 MuffinCookie wrote: Greetings everyone.
I just started playing Heart of the Swarm, and while I've been playing (I'm Zerg, by the way), I've noticed a few standards throughout my game, i.e. Protoss gets Mothership Core, Terran sends two Widow Mines to my base at a consistent time, etc. I would just like to know, what have the standards for ZvP, ZvT, and ZvZ developed to up to this point, and what sort of opening and mid-game should I go with? Thanks.
I'm about platinum/diamond and while I see lots of different stuff (especially cheese) there are a few trends I've noticed
ZvT - I open hatch first, 3-4 queen with a relatively fast gas around 20 supply and then I stay on line/bane and take a fast third and get a really fast hive into ultralisks. Does well against everything except a thor ball with a lot of tanks. Against bio, Ultra/ling/bling/viper is really, really good and it'll work against mech too, but not quite as well depending on how many thors to tanks he has. If he is going mech, I favor an ultra/hydra style leaning more towards ultras.
I've heard of this 3-4 queen style before, I think from Wings of the Liberty too. What are the timings for the 3rd and 4th queen? Do you just make them right after the 1st and 2nd queens? What I have been doing so far is just a 14hatch/15pool with two queens almost immediately after the pool pops (preferably producing simultaneously). And then I just wing it. Which is terrible, because it works in the Bronze League. My placement matches went pretty badly.
And for ZvP, I played against someone who didn't do the usual FFE, and went for a Mothership Core/Gateway push which basically killed me. In this case, I wouldn't take a third, right? Thanks.
*Edit: I have one more question. I really like using the Swarm Host, it seems to just kill things really well. Even if it feels like I have a smaller/weaker army, everything on the ground just dies to Locusts. What goes well with Swarm Hosts? Thanks again.
4 queen build is basically an economic hatch first (typically a 15h/16p). Then build two queens as soon as your pool finishes. Build two more queens immediately after the first 2 finish. Finally you take either double gas at 30ish supply or 3-4 gas at 40ish supply.
Ok so.. I'm a "midmaster" Zerg (WOL), and i simply cannot deal with these new reapers once they commit to them(more than 3-4)
I open 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas and then i get 2 queens as soon as my spawning pool finishes, and i make a spine at my natural right away after that (If i scout reaper opening) so that it will be completed before there is 2 or 3 reapers attacking me, and as soon as my 2 queens finish i build a third one, and then i get speed at 100 gas.
I've tried rushing for roaches as soon as i see it coming, and it doesn't work, because not only do they get perfect scouting once they get to my base, they are also alot more mobile, and they can kill my whole mineral line before i'm halfway across map, and they already got techlabs for fast marauders to hold any roach push.
I've tried sitting on 2base gettings a ton of lings trying to chase them away while teching for mutas -> Wont ever be able to catch them, because they are so fast and can see up cliffs - so i just end up losing tons and tons of lings, so eventually they just get to my mineral line anyway, because the opponent gets a bigger and bigger army, while mine just keeps dieing, no matter how good i micro.
I've heard people say 4-6 queen openers, i've tried that, and it just dies if the terran micros properly i feel, it's not like i can chase them offcreep, and once they are offcreep it doesn't take that long until their health is good enough to join the battle again.
Maybe there is a good way to defend vs them, i dont know of any as of yet tho I just know that i get incredibly angry when i play against this, so much that i just stop enjoying the game for hours after it has happened... and i am being incredibly rude to my opponents..
So my question is more or less; how am i supposed to deal with more then 1-3 reapers, how i do i deal with for example 3rax reaper?
Just need to make this clear: I do not have any problems vs 1-3 reapers, normal reaper openings i can deal with 100% fine, it's the additional reapers that make it impossible to hold off with queens/lings for me.
On January 10 2013 01:09 Mephtral wrote: Ok so.. I'm a "midmaster" Zerg (WOL), and i simply cannot deal with these new reapers once they commit to them(more than 3-4)
I open 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas and then i get 2 queens as soon as my spawning pool finishes, and i make a spine at my natural right away after that (If i scout reaper opening) so that it will be completed before there is 2 or 3 reapers attacking me, and as soon as my 2 queens finish i build a third one, and then i get speed at 100 gas.
I've tried rushing for roaches as soon as i see it coming, and it doesn't work, because not only do they get perfect scouting once they get to my base, they are also alot more mobile, and they can kill my whole mineral line before i'm halfway across map, and they already got techlabs for fast marauders to hold any roach push.
I've tried sitting on 2base gettings a ton of lings trying to chase them away while teching for mutas -> Wont ever be able to catch them, because they are so fast and can see up cliffs - so i just end up losing tons and tons of lings, so eventually they just get to my mineral line anyway, because the opponent gets a bigger and bigger army, while mine just keeps dieing, no matter how good i micro.
I've heard people say 4-6 queen openers, i've tried that, and it just dies if the terran micros properly i feel, it's not like i can chase them offcreep, and once they are offcreep it doesn't take that long until their health is good enough to join the battle again.
Maybe there is a good way to defend vs them, i dont know of any as of yet tho I just know that i get incredibly angry when i play against this, so much that i just stop enjoying the game for hours after it has happened... and i am being incredibly rude to my opponents..
So my question is more or less; how am i supposed to deal with more then 1-3 reapers, how i do i deal with for example 3rax reaper?
Just need to make this clear: I do not have any problems vs 1-3 reapers, normal reaper openings i can deal with 100% fine, it's the additional reapers that make it impossible to hold off with queens/lings for me.
What about making roachs and instead of walking across the map just leave them near your mineral lines to kill the reapers....?
On January 10 2013 01:09 Mephtral wrote: Ok so.. I'm a "midmaster" Zerg (WOL), and i simply cannot deal with these new reapers once they commit to them(more than 3-4)
I open 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas and then i get 2 queens as soon as my spawning pool finishes, and i make a spine at my natural right away after that (If i scout reaper opening) so that it will be completed before there is 2 or 3 reapers attacking me, and as soon as my 2 queens finish i build a third one, and then i get speed at 100 gas.
I've tried rushing for roaches as soon as i see it coming, and it doesn't work, because not only do they get perfect scouting once they get to my base, they are also alot more mobile, and they can kill my whole mineral line before i'm halfway across map, and they already got techlabs for fast marauders to hold any roach push.
I've tried sitting on 2base gettings a ton of lings trying to chase them away while teching for mutas -> Wont ever be able to catch them, because they are so fast and can see up cliffs - so i just end up losing tons and tons of lings, so eventually they just get to my mineral line anyway, because the opponent gets a bigger and bigger army, while mine just keeps dieing, no matter how good i micro.
I've heard people say 4-6 queen openers, i've tried that, and it just dies if the terran micros properly i feel, it's not like i can chase them offcreep, and once they are offcreep it doesn't take that long until their health is good enough to join the battle again.
Maybe there is a good way to defend vs them, i dont know of any as of yet tho I just know that i get incredibly angry when i play against this, so much that i just stop enjoying the game for hours after it has happened... and i am being incredibly rude to my opponents..
So my question is more or less; how am i supposed to deal with more then 1-3 reapers, how i do i deal with for example 3rax reaper?
Just need to make this clear: I do not have any problems vs 1-3 reapers, normal reaper openings i can deal with 100% fine, it's the additional reapers that make it impossible to hold off with queens/lings for me.
What about making roachs and instead of walking across the map just leave them near your mineral lines to kill the reapers....?
Sorry should've mentioned why i dont do that; it requires quite a few roaches to hold off mass reapers, because of how much more mobility they have
For example on cloud kingdom i cant defend my main and my natural with roaches unless i make an actual army, because its impossible to position myself above cliffs to catch him or gain a advantage over him, because he can see up cliffs and got same range(actually 0,5 more someone told me, dont know if it matters tho) + shoots and heals faster.
And sure it's true i could do something like, take double gas and go mass roach, and THEN drone.. but during that he still got a good eco behind it if he just makes a 2nd cc by delaying 1 round of reapers during his harass. And as i said, he already got techlabs, so if he wants to do a marauder heavy push when he sees i'm commiting to roaches, he can easily do so, so i want to avoid that if at all possible
/Edit: I'm not saying it wont work, i'll continue trying roaches to defend, and combine it with better building placement and overall better army control, but i would personally prefer not to rely on roaches vs a terran with 3+ techlabs when i i'm barely on 2 base eco.
On January 10 2013 01:09 Mephtral wrote: Ok so.. I'm a "midmaster" Zerg (WOL), and i simply cannot deal with these new reapers once they commit to them(more than 3-4)
I open 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas and then i get 2 queens as soon as my spawning pool finishes, and i make a spine at my natural right away after that (If i scout reaper opening) so that it will be completed before there is 2 or 3 reapers attacking me, and as soon as my 2 queens finish i build a third one, and then i get speed at 100 gas.
I've tried rushing for roaches as soon as i see it coming, and it doesn't work, because not only do they get perfect scouting once they get to my base, they are also alot more mobile, and they can kill my whole mineral line before i'm halfway across map, and they already got techlabs for fast marauders to hold any roach push.
I've tried sitting on 2base gettings a ton of lings trying to chase them away while teching for mutas -> Wont ever be able to catch them, because they are so fast and can see up cliffs - so i just end up losing tons and tons of lings, so eventually they just get to my mineral line anyway, because the opponent gets a bigger and bigger army, while mine just keeps dieing, no matter how good i micro.
I've heard people say 4-6 queen openers, i've tried that, and it just dies if the terran micros properly i feel, it's not like i can chase them offcreep, and once they are offcreep it doesn't take that long until their health is good enough to join the battle again.
Maybe there is a good way to defend vs them, i dont know of any as of yet tho I just know that i get incredibly angry when i play against this, so much that i just stop enjoying the game for hours after it has happened... and i am being incredibly rude to my opponents..
So my question is more or less; how am i supposed to deal with more then 1-3 reapers, how i do i deal with for example 3rax reaper?
Just need to make this clear: I do not have any problems vs 1-3 reapers, normal reaper openings i can deal with 100% fine, it's the additional reapers that make it impossible to hold off with queens/lings for me.
What about making roachs and instead of walking across the map just leave them near your mineral lines to kill the reapers....?
Sorry should've mentioned why i dont do that; it requires quite a few roaches to hold off mass reapers, because of how much more mobility they have
For example on cloud kingdom i cant defend my main and my natural with roaches unless i make an actual army, because its impossible to position myself above cliffs to catch him or gain a advantage over him, because he can see up cliffs and got same range(actually 0,5 more someone told me, dont know if it matters tho) + shoots and heals faster.
And sure it's true i could do something like, take double gas and go mass roach, and THEN drone.. but during that he still got a good eco behind it if he just makes a 2nd cc by delaying 1 round of reapers during his harass. And as i said, he already got techlabs, so if he wants to do a marauder heavy push when he sees i'm commiting to roaches, he can easily do so, so i want to avoid that if at all possible
you dont need mass reapers just enough to zone him out of the mineral line marauder pushs are easy enough to hold with spine/ling/roach
it may suck having to go so far to defend reapers but theres no other way really im prettty sure blizz said reaper nerfs incoming to just wait it out i guess
On January 10 2013 01:09 Mephtral wrote: Ok so.. I'm a "midmaster" Zerg (WOL), and i simply cannot deal with these new reapers once they commit to them(more than 3-4)
I open 15 hatch, 16 pool, 17 gas and then i get 2 queens as soon as my spawning pool finishes, and i make a spine at my natural right away after that (If i scout reaper opening) so that it will be completed before there is 2 or 3 reapers attacking me, and as soon as my 2 queens finish i build a third one, and then i get speed at 100 gas.
I've tried rushing for roaches as soon as i see it coming, and it doesn't work, because not only do they get perfect scouting once they get to my base, they are also alot more mobile, and they can kill my whole mineral line before i'm halfway across map, and they already got techlabs for fast marauders to hold any roach push.
I've tried sitting on 2base gettings a ton of lings trying to chase them away while teching for mutas -> Wont ever be able to catch them, because they are so fast and can see up cliffs - so i just end up losing tons and tons of lings, so eventually they just get to my mineral line anyway, because the opponent gets a bigger and bigger army, while mine just keeps dieing, no matter how good i micro.
I've heard people say 4-6 queen openers, i've tried that, and it just dies if the terran micros properly i feel, it's not like i can chase them offcreep, and once they are offcreep it doesn't take that long until their health is good enough to join the battle again.
Maybe there is a good way to defend vs them, i dont know of any as of yet tho I just know that i get incredibly angry when i play against this, so much that i just stop enjoying the game for hours after it has happened... and i am being incredibly rude to my opponents..
So my question is more or less; how am i supposed to deal with more then 1-3 reapers, how i do i deal with for example 3rax reaper?
Just need to make this clear: I do not have any problems vs 1-3 reapers, normal reaper openings i can deal with 100% fine, it's the additional reapers that make it impossible to hold off with queens/lings for me.
What about making roachs and instead of walking across the map just leave them near your mineral lines to kill the reapers....?
Sorry should've mentioned why i dont do that; it requires quite a few roaches to hold off mass reapers, because of how much more mobility they have
For example on cloud kingdom i cant defend my main and my natural with roaches unless i make an actual army, because its impossible to position myself above cliffs to catch him or gain a advantage over him, because he can see up cliffs and got same range(actually 0,5 more someone told me, dont know if it matters tho) + shoots and heals faster.
And sure it's true i could do something like, take double gas and go mass roach, and THEN drone.. but during that he still got a good eco behind it if he just makes a 2nd cc by delaying 1 round of reapers during his harass. And as i said, he already got techlabs, so if he wants to do a marauder heavy push when he sees i'm commiting to roaches, he can easily do so, so i want to avoid that if at all possible
/Edit: I'm not saying it wont work, i'll continue trying roaches to defend, and combine it with better building placement and overall better army control, but i would personally prefer not to rely on roaches vs a terran with 3+ techlabs when i i'm barely on 2 base eco.
Earlier gas is better when you see a 13 gas from a T player. A 15 pool 17 gas would be quite strong. From there you'd just follow Stephano's 7-8 roach opening off 2 bases (6-7 min warren). THese roaches are used defensively against those incoming reapers. The one big advantage Z has against reapers is overlords. At that point you will have enough to position along vulnerable cliffs to see reapers coming from a mile away. This makes roach positioning alot easier which culminates to 0 losses. Try to fight on creep since roaches move faster than reapers and focus fire (4 to 1 shot 1). Each reaper is costly to the terran.
Also, try transitioning to 2 base muta with this build. If they 3-4 rax reaper, they can only pump so many marines and the mutas could usually 1) End the game if he over commits to reapers, go for banshee tech. 2) Forces more raxes, turrets and turtling to occur. For result 2, this is where the zerg shines, because of the constant muta threat, u can keep harassing them and keep T contained to 2 bases, while you freely DOUBLE expand, with enough resources to build a medium sized ling/bling army and transition to hive as your 4th is saturated properly. Just don't lose those mutas early on and slowly replace them as your upgrades and eco becomes strong (the ideal comp i'd go for is typically ultra/viper and infestor). That should end the game with good flanks in place or even an attack move if the T has too many rines. This is a good day to be a zerg my friend.
On January 11 2013 19:50 raybasto wrote: How do you stop the 1 Gate Cyber Expand with Zealot/Stalker/MSC pressure?
What opening should I be doing against Toss? 3 hatch into 5:45 gas like in WoL?
Whenever you see 1 gate play you should be getting a gas asap and I always make a third queen as well since you shouldn't take your third for a little bit (you want to make sure he expands and isn't doing the expand into 5 gate).
Vs Gate-Expand you shouldn't really open 3 hatch, especially not with the new MSC along side Zealot and Stalker. You should just go 2 base Lair and Then expand. So basically either muta-expand (not if stargate probably), infestor-expand, swarmhost-expand or something like that.
Even Hydra-expand can be ok if you opt for fast Hive into Vipers afterwards.
On January 11 2013 20:06 _indigo_ wrote: Vs Gate-Expand you shouldn't really open 3 hatch, especially not with the new MSC along side Zealot and Stalker. You should just go 2 base Lair and Then expand. So basically either muta-expand (not if stargate probably), infestor-expand, swarmhost-expand or something like that.
Even Hydra-expand can be ok if you opt for fast Hive into Vipers afterwards.
way mroe careful then you need to be, as soon as they expand your safe to take your third
ZvP has become so depressing on the zerg side of things. When will blizzard take a look at zerg? Protoss has got so much buffs and technics on how to make pressure (with MSC) and they also have an easier time dealing with runbys because of planetaries nexusus. Protoss AA has been buffed substantially, and the zerg's AA has been nerfed to the ground --> infestors with their IT + fungal was the old way zergs dealt with mass air, yes I have to agree that it was kinda joke how infestors was the counter to everything in WoL but just nerfing the unit without buffing other units leaves the zerg all completely helpeless when defending for example mass air. --> at the current stage of the beta u can't beat the protoss if they're getting their deathball out (This deathball should consist of mass air with mainly void rays in it, u will add tempests to the composition later on AND high templars with storms and feedbacks is crucial as this is how they easily deals with hydras, the protoss will use mainly gas on his comp and the huge mineral bank will go to mass cannon, he will then further camp, and attacking into mass void with a lot of cannons and HT with storm is usually not a good idea). --> I know it's beta and a lot of new changes will probably come in the future, but it's just depressing how every game pans out like this.
Edit: Oh and if u got any good suggestion on how this can be dealt with I'm open for suggestions. I'm currently GM in hots... but GM in hots is more so irrelevant, master in WoL tho.
Edit2: I know IdrA is complaining a lot about this issue. CatZ started to play protoss because of exactly this. I know FXOLucky makes a lot of cheeses in ZvP and transition into hydra timing (basically every option to end the game fast).
On January 12 2013 20:30 Siggeh wrote: ZvP has become so depressing on the zerg side of things. When will blizzard take a look at zerg? Protoss has got so much buffs and technics on how to make pressure (with MSC) and they also have an easier time dealing with runbys because of planetaries nexusus. Protoss AA has been buffed substantially, and the zerg's AA has been nerfed to the ground --> infestors with their IT + fungal was the old way zergs dealt with mass air, yes I have to agree that it was kinda joke how infestors was the counter to everything in WoL but just nerfing the unit without buffing other units leaves the zerg all completely helpeless when defending for example mass air. --> at the current stage of the beta u can't beat the protoss if they're getting their deathball out (This deathball should consist of mass air with mainly void rays in it, u will add tempests to the composition later on AND high templars with storms and feedbacks is crucial as this is how they easily deals with hydras, the protoss will use mainly gas on his comp and the huge mineral bank will go to mass cannon, he will then further camp, and attacking into mass void with a lot of cannons and HT with storm is usually not a good idea). --> I know it's beta and a lot of new changes will probably come in the future, but it's just depressing how every game pans out like this.
Edit: Oh and if u got any good suggestion on how this can be dealt with I'm open for suggestions. I'm currently GM in hots... but GM in hots is more so irrelevant, master in WoL tho.
Edit2: I know IdrA is complaining a lot about this issue. CatZ started to play protoss because of exactly this. I know FXOLucky makes a lot of cheeses in ZvP and transition into hydra timing (basically every option to end the game fast).
just go for a "stephano raoch push" but add more gases and mix in hydras and keep up the agression if there constantly building units to kill your roach hydra there not making skytoss
What do you do against the sentry/immortal all-in in the beta? Seems like HotS have oppened up for some new responses to it, since there is no longer any "deadend" tech. I'm thinking that the choice must be between hydra's, hosts or mutas? Of course the old "counter", roach/ling and try to hold until infestors, is still viable, but it never really worked well to be honest. The toss would often kill the third base before infestors were out.
So, what do you do when you scout those sentries and a robobay?
On January 13 2013 09:04 sweetbabyjesus wrote: I have a question, beta zergs of the world!
What do you do against the sentry/immortal all-in in the beta? Seems like HotS have oppened up for some new responses to it, since there is no longer any "deadend" tech. I'm thinking that the choice must be between hydra's, hosts or mutas? Of course the old "counter", roach/ling and try to hold until infestors, is still viable, but it never really worked well to be honest. The toss would often kill the third base before infestors were out.
So, what do you do when you scout those sentries and a robobay?
I still think Roach/Ling is the best way to stop these attacks. You just gotta fake engagements in the middle of the map so by the time he actually hits your base, he won't have infinite force fields. I find this style to be best because once you stop it, you can take a 4th and tech to Hive with a good amount of gas saved for Ultras. I try to squeeze a macro hatch in before the 8 minute mark and Ling upgrades (Carapace) before the attack hits me. I'm not a big fan of Hydras because I'd rather save the gas for Infestors and Ultras
Question: In ZvT, with the new Siege Tank buff, a lot of people have been going Mech by going Reapers into Spider mines into Siege Hellion with Thors and Vikings mixed in for Vipers. I know the counter to mech is Roach/Hydra/Viper, how are you supposed to beat Mech when they go heavy Vikings with Thors to stop Vipers? Should I be attacking at multiple fronts to force him to surrender his position? What ratio of Roach to Hydra should I do, heavy Roach with Hydra support?
On January 13 2013 12:34 Dynamitekid wrote: What do you guys think is a better combination versus Terran Bio? Lings+ultras+vipers or Lings+ultras+infestors?
I would say Ling/Ultra/Infestor with 2-3 Vipers to Blinding Cloud Tanks. Should try to mix in a couple Banes in there too
What do you do against the sentry/immortal all-in in the beta? Seems like HotS have oppened up for some new responses to it, since there is no longer any "deadend" tech. I'm thinking that the choice must be between hydra's, hosts or mutas? Of course the old "counter", roach/ling and try to hold until infestors, is still viable, but it never really worked well to be honest. The toss would often kill the third base before infestors were out.
So, what do you do when you scout those sentries and a robobay?
the counter in WoL was never infesters because of what you said, they got out too late the counter in woL was to cath them before they got to your base in a scenario where they ahve to expend tons of FFs to survive and still lose sentries so that when they do get to your base a good engagements wins it for you
that said in HoTS id suggest Hydras because A) there range makes them not really care about FFs B) there fast attack speed makes them good agaisnt immortals and C) you want hydras in the MU anyway and it gives you a good offensive army to prevent them from taking a 3rd
Question: In ZvT, with the new Siege Tank buff, a lot of people have been going Mech by going Reapers into Spider mines into Siege Hellion with Thors and Vikings mixed in for Vipers. I know the counter to mech is Roach/Hydra/Viper, how are you supposed to beat Mech when they go heavy Vikings with Thors to stop Vipers? Should I be attacking at multiple fronts to force him to surrender his position? What ratio of Roach to Hydra should I do, heavy Roach with Hydra support?
if he has vikings just make sure that your vipers are hiding behind your Hydras as much as possible the vikings are going to cut into his ground army so you could even go a bit lighter on roachs since he has less stuff on the ground killing your stuff on the ground
if you have the spire (like if your planning a BL transition then a couple corrupters to scare the viks away wouldnt hurt
Im struggling hard against Protoss Air, maybe im just bad, is there any chance to win against phoenix/carrier/oracle? I feel like phoenix are lifting my infestors and the rest of the air army just gets aclicked and melt everything t.t
On January 14 2013 17:49 rMo wrote: Im struggling hard against Protoss Air, maybe im just bad, is there any chance to win against phoenix/carrier/oracle? I feel like phoenix are lifting my infestors and the rest of the air army just gets aclicked and melt everything t.t
If they are only going phoenix/carrier/oracle just corruptors beats that.
Ok I'm having a helluva time vs protoss, especially mixed air/ground. Played a game against void/collo/stlker and i just couldnt trade efficiently. I made roach/hydra corrupter with better upgrades, way better economy but just got wrecked in every engagement. void rays destroy corrupters with their bonus vs armored attack and the collo zone out my hydra. What to do vs. Collo/void/stalker? heres the rep: http://drop.sc/294928 I'm low master/dia in WOL
On January 15 2013 09:23 Logsaysned wrote: Ok I'm having a helluva time vs protoss, especially mixed air/ground. Played a game against void/collo/stlker and i just couldnt trade efficiently. I made roach/hydra corrupter with better upgrades, way better economy but just got wrecked in every engagement. void rays destroy corrupters with their bonus vs armored attack and the collo zone out my hydra. What to do vs. Collo/void/stalker? heres the rep: http://drop.sc/294928 I'm low master/dia in WOL
wait for inc void ray nerf
id suggest roach/hydra/viper and focus on abducting the collisi and killing them ASAP then its jsut gateway units and VRs vs roach hydra
I find Zerg weak in the early/mid game. I mostly want to rush to lategame where I can use Viper or ultralisk. Can anyone give some advice in how to rush to hive tech but still being safe in zvp and zvt?
On January 11 2013 19:50 raybasto wrote: How do you stop the 1 Gate Cyber Expand with Zealot/Stalker/MSC pressure?
What opening should I be doing against Toss? 3 hatch into 5:45 gas like in WoL?
Whenever you see 1 gate play you should be getting a gas asap and I always make a third queen as well since you shouldn't take your third for a little bit (you want to make sure he expands and isn't doing the expand into 5 gate).
Hm i have a different opinion on that. If they go for a quite fast expansion after gate cyber i stay on 2 base and get 4-6 queens, 2gases at 44 and a third shorty after. I only get the gas when i scout that there may will be a nexuscancle incoming. I will still have enough time to get enough gas for 2-3 roaches when the push occures, combined with the queens and creep, its enough to hold. Its also quite good to time the RW with their nexus that you can cancle it just in case.
On January 11 2013 19:50 raybasto wrote: How do you stop the 1 Gate Cyber Expand with Zealot/Stalker/MSC pressure?
What opening should I be doing against Toss? 3 hatch into 5:45 gas like in WoL?
Whenever you see 1 gate play you should be getting a gas asap and I always make a third queen as well since you shouldn't take your third for a little bit (you want to make sure he expands and isn't doing the expand into 5 gate).
Hm i have a different opinion on that. If they go for a quite fast expansion after gate cyber i stay on 2 base and get 4-6 queens, 2gases at 44 and a third shorty after. I only get the gas when i scout that there may will be a nexuscancle incoming. I will still have enough time to get enough gas for 2-3 roaches when the push occures, combined with the queens and creep, its enough to hold. Its also quite good to time the RW with their nexus that you can cancle it just in case.
I don't know man. I feel like Zerg has to play greedy and get a relative early fourth, thus I can't effort to delay my third. The reason why I think this, is that Protoss is being so damn greedy in hots - they tend to take their third extremely early - earlier than you have time to get hydras out, which means if they have the mothershipcore, a VR and some sentries, you can't deny his third with roaches. What's your solution on this?
On January 17 2013 17:15 Rallerbabz wrote: Hey guys.
I find Zerg weak in the early/mid game. I mostly want to rush to lategame where I can use Viper or ultralisk. Can anyone give some advice in how to rush to hive tech but still being safe in zvp and zvt?
In ZvT if your opponent is somewhat mech/turtley, staying on roach hydra on 2 bases can still get you a pretty early hive. Since after hive you most often only get vipers it's not really more expensive then, say, upgraded infestors. Try to plant the third asap though. vs Bio a MutaLing/Bling style would accomplish the same, although you'd need a macro hatch if you stay on 2 bases! In ZvP you can get hive right after you planted your infestation pit. Both plays(in ZvT and ZvP) result in a hive at the 11th to 13th minute mark which should still give you a solid enough lategame and a really good composition to fight.
But keep in mind that rushing to hive is not always the best idea!
EDIT: About the other issue above: I find that a greedy toss that goes for a ground robo-based army is best punished with swarm host play. You stay on 2 or 3 bases, mass up hosts with corruptor support and when they think they got their deathball up you're prepared to be aggressive vs them since they can't attack into that (and with the new ultras a techswitch into ultra is possible if they go for high templars for example. you just have to prepare that in advance, getting +1 melee ugprade as soon as you sense templars coming up. that style also really transitions nicely into broodlords if they focus on stalkers too much. swarm host/broodlord with corruptor support is just terrific.) Other stuff like airplay is best answered with a fast third and aggressive muta ling bling resulting in ultralisk infestor/viper shenanigans. But I'm still very much experimenting with that.
Because both playstyles want a relatively early lair, I prefer the 1 gas asap vs gate openings. vs forge first or nexus first everything is kinda delayed for toss, so the 2 gas at 44 are preferable then.
On January 11 2013 19:50 raybasto wrote: How do you stop the 1 Gate Cyber Expand with Zealot/Stalker/MSC pressure?
What opening should I be doing against Toss? 3 hatch into 5:45 gas like in WoL?
Whenever you see 1 gate play you should be getting a gas asap and I always make a third queen as well since you shouldn't take your third for a little bit (you want to make sure he expands and isn't doing the expand into 5 gate).
Hm i have a different opinion on that. If they go for a quite fast expansion after gate cyber i stay on 2 base and get 4-6 queens, 2gases at 44 and a third shorty after. I only get the gas when i scout that there may will be a nexuscancle incoming. I will still have enough time to get enough gas for 2-3 roaches when the push occures, combined with the queens and creep, its enough to hold. Its also quite good to time the RW with their nexus that you can cancle it just in case.
I don't know man. I feel like Zerg has to play greedy and get a relative early fourth, thus I can't effort to delay my third. The reason why I think this, is that Protoss is being so damn greedy in hots - they tend to take their third extremely early - earlier than you have time to get hydras out, which means if they have the mothershipcore, a VR and some sentries, you can't deny his third with roaches. What's your solution on this?
Thats exactly what i was refering to :-) vs 3 base P/T i feel like i need to get asap 10 gases for not getting behind. That being said i cannot afford a early gas just because protoss opened gateway instead of forge. Its the same in zvt, i dont get early gases against gas builds of terran either, simply because i need to play as much on the edge as humanly possible to not get behind. In hots i feel like zerg has to play even more greedy than in wol. still, against gateway builds u cant get ur third before 6mins safely, at least in the most of situations.
I do have more problems in ZvT though regards not getting behind. If a terran opens 1 rax expand into 4min dbl gas, i cannot scout what hes doing (heavy aggression or just slight aggression into early third). The scout will just get denied by 1-3 marines patrolling. Which means i have to prepair for the hardest pressure which can come at me (mostly heavy helion banshee commitment or/and widow mines). That leads to situations where i start my third when the one of my opponent is already done. I couldnt figure out so far what i need to mix up to change that
On January 11 2013 19:50 raybasto wrote: How do you stop the 1 Gate Cyber Expand with Zealot/Stalker/MSC pressure?
What opening should I be doing against Toss? 3 hatch into 5:45 gas like in WoL?
Whenever you see 1 gate play you should be getting a gas asap and I always make a third queen as well since you shouldn't take your third for a little bit (you want to make sure he expands and isn't doing the expand into 5 gate).
Hm i have a different opinion on that. If they go for a quite fast expansion after gate cyber i stay on 2 base and get 4-6 queens, 2gases at 44 and a third shorty after. I only get the gas when i scout that there may will be a nexuscancle incoming. I will still have enough time to get enough gas for 2-3 roaches when the push occures, combined with the queens and creep, its enough to hold. Its also quite good to time the RW with their nexus that you can cancle it just in case.
I don't know man. I feel like Zerg has to play greedy and get a relative early fourth, thus I can't effort to delay my third. The reason why I think this, is that Protoss is being so damn greedy in hots - they tend to take their third extremely early - earlier than you have time to get hydras out, which means if they have the mothershipcore, a VR and some sentries, you can't deny his third with roaches. What's your solution on this?
Thats exactly what i was refering to :-) vs 3 base P/T i feel like i need to get asap 10 gases for not getting behind. That being said i cannot afford a early gas just because protoss opened gateway instead of forge. Its the same in zvt, i dont get early gases against gas builds of terran either, simply because i need to play as much on the edge as humanly possible to not get behind. In hots i feel like zerg has to play even more greedy than in wol. still, against gateway builds u cant get ur third before 6mins safely, at least in the most of situations.
I do have more problems in ZvT though regards not getting behind. If a terran opens 1 rax expand into 4min dbl gas, i cannot scout what hes doing (heavy aggression or just slight aggression into early third). The scout will just get denied by 1-3 marines patrolling. Which means i have to prepair for the hardest pressure which can come at me (mostly heavy helion banshee commitment or/and widow mines). That leads to situations where i start my third when the one of my opponent is already done. I couldnt figure out so far what i need to mix up to change that
Most 2 base Terran attacks come around 10 minutes, so you're pretty much free to take your third and drone up until around 8:30 ~9:00 minutes.
But if you don't feel comfortable, you could stay on 2 base, get faster lair, and check with your overseer what he's doing. If you are indeed still on 2 base, 2 base push from a Terran should be real easy to deal with.
I didnt mean pushes, at 10 minute mark im more than comfortable holding everything when i dont take dmg before. I meant heavy harass which hits u at around 8min mark or even shortly before. i might should post some reps too explain my difficulties better, its quite hard to find the right words
I feel like Zerg is just unplayable right now in HotS.
ZvP is unwinnable if the protoss is half competent and knows how to build void rays. I just had a game where the opponent was on 4 base and I was on 8 base and he won easy.
ZvT is unwinnable if terran half knows what he's doing. Widow mines shut down any attack at all early game and widow mines used correct make mutas useless. With the new medivac speed and the inability to use mutas, this match up is impossible.
ZvZ is completely stale with the only possible viable option muta v. muta.
I'm really really starting to lose hope in Blizzard, especially when DB goes and makes jokes about how his stalker army lost to a bunch of void rays. This VR issue is so clear and Blizzard has been silent on it.
On January 18 2013 04:01 Papulatus wrote: I feel like Zerg is just unplayable right now in HotS.
ZvP is unwinnable if the protoss is half competent and knows how to build void rays. I just had a game where the opponent was on 4 base and I was on 8 base and he won easy.
ZvT is unwinnable if terran half knows what he's doing. Widow mines shut down any attack at all early game and widow mines used correct make mutas useless. With the new medivac speed and the inability to use mutas, this match up is impossible.
ZvZ is completely stale with the only possible viable option muta v. muta.
I'm really really starting to lose hope in Blizzard, especially when DB goes and makes jokes about how his stalker army lost to a bunch of void rays. This VR issue is so clear and Blizzard has been silent on it.
I think people are too quick to criticize what blizzard is doing. Some things just take time to develop. Maybe if player x does y build, then z build can kill it. At the moment there are not enough consistent builds to be able to determine things. Each player is kinda doing his/her own thing and that is why sometimes it is hard to adjust.
Personally in ZvP i go ling/hydra (some roaches) if they open stargate and pressure with that and get a spire behind it. If they over prepare for the spire by making loads of pheonix then I just continue on with ling/hydra and maybe add some corrupters and transition into late game. However if they go robo or open robo then I like going mutas. Again this is how I play and what works for me might now work for you but currently I have roughly 65~70% winrate vs Protoss at GM level.
Against Terran I have had much success with ling/bane/muta into ultra/infestor/viper/bane. I think mutas are very useful to stop and more importantly discourage drop play. If facing widow mines, getting ovie speed and using a speed overlord with a pack of mutas is helpful (ie. run in a muta to tank the widow shot, then kill it with the rest of the mutas while sending the injured muta home until it regens). Speed overlords are also useful since it takes 2 widow mines (150/50) which is 4 supply worth to take out a no supply (100/0) unit. Sending in a group of speed ovies ahead of your army will help tank the widow mine shots. Late game I believe zerg is at an advantage since ultras are much better.
ZvZ is very versatile I think nowadays. Most people have trouble defending mass muta which is why they tend to go mutas themselves, however it is not impossible to hold. Also +1 ling infestors are strong currently. With games I have played it seems that it is possible to play ZvZ in 3 ways. Old roach/infestor/hydra, ling/infestor/ultra, and mass muta. This seems to give more flexibility to the match up where in my opinion roach>ling>muta>roach. By greater than I just mean that with the games I have played and seen that the person that counters the other persons build is slightly ahead or has an easier time. This could also make scouting more important and seeing clues with what their composition in the mid and late game will be.
Obviously this is all my opinion so if any of you disagree then obviously you are eligible to have your own opinion on things. However I think that we as a community are too quick to criticize some things. If you could travel back in time to early WoL and play somebody that was slightly better then you, you would still probably win since your understanding of the game is greater, and that's what I think the greatest problem in HotS is. It is too short of time to get used to how to play with patches coming every 2 weeks or so and with each player having their own style some builds that might be terrible in 2 years time will beat you now since we do not know how to react properly.
On January 18 2013 04:01 Papulatus wrote: I feel like Zerg is just unplayable right now in HotS.
ZvP is unwinnable if the protoss is half competent and knows how to build void rays. I just had a game where the opponent was on 4 base and I was on 8 base and he won easy.
ZvT is unwinnable if terran half knows what he's doing. Widow mines shut down any attack at all early game and widow mines used correct make mutas useless. With the new medivac speed and the inability to use mutas, this match up is impossible.
ZvZ is completely stale with the only possible viable option muta v. muta.
I'm really really starting to lose hope in Blizzard, especially when DB goes and makes jokes about how his stalker army lost to a bunch of void rays. This VR issue is so clear and Blizzard has been silent on it.
I think people are too quick to criticize what blizzard is doing. Some things just take time to develop. Maybe if player x does y build, then z build can kill it. At the moment there are not enough consistent builds to be able to determine things. Each player is kinda doing his/her own thing and that is why sometimes it is hard to adjust.
Personally in ZvP i go ling/hydra (some roaches) if they open stargate and pressure with that and get a spire behind it. If they over prepare for the spire by making loads of pheonix then I just continue on with ling/hydra and maybe add some corrupters and transition into late game. However if they go robo or open robo then I like going mutas. Again this is how I play and what works for me might now work for you but currently I have roughly 65~70% winrate vs Protoss at GM level.
Against Terran I have had much success with ling/bane/muta into ultra/infestor/viper/bane. I think mutas are very useful to stop and more importantly discourage drop play. If facing widow mines, getting ovie speed and using a speed overlord with a pack of mutas is helpful (ie. run in a muta to tank the widow shot, then kill it with the rest of the mutas while sending the injured muta home until it regens). Speed overlords are also useful since it takes 2 widow mines (150/50) which is 4 supply worth to take out a no supply (100/0) unit. Sending in a group of speed ovies ahead of your army will help tank the widow mine shots. Late game I believe zerg is at an advantage since ultras are much better.
ZvZ is very versatile I think nowadays. Most people have trouble defending mass muta which is why they tend to go mutas themselves, however it is not impossible to hold. Also +1 ling infestors are strong currently. With games I have played it seems that it is possible to play ZvZ in 3 ways. Old roach/infestor/hydra, ling/infestor/ultra, and mass muta. This seems to give more flexibility to the match up where in my opinion roach>ling>muta>roach. By greater than I just mean that with the games I have played and seen that the person that counters the other persons build is slightly ahead or has an easier time. This could also make scouting more important and seeing clues with what their composition in the mid and late game will be.
Obviously this is all my opinion so if any of you disagree then obviously you are eligible to have your own opinion on things. However I think that we as a community are too quick to criticize some things. If you could travel back in time to early WoL and play somebody that was slightly better then you, you would still probably win since your understanding of the game is greater, and that's what I think the greatest problem in HotS is. It is too short of time to get used to how to play with patches coming every 2 weeks or so and with each player having their own style some builds that might be terrible in 2 years time will beat you now since we do not know how to react properly.
I have very similiar experiences and ideas, respect sir. VS toss I think that 3 base Hydra ling Corruptor timing attacks are deadly vs protoss, if he goes old collosus route just snipe collosi(once u run out of lings, u retreat) and go back, expand and tech to BL's or vipers. If he goes air heavy style just go allin with this composition and keep sending waves of lings (3 base + macro hatch, 4th on the way) to tank cannons and ground army while corruptors and hydras deal with air somewhat well. Corruptor hydra seems like the best things that currently has zerg vs toss air. In this timing toss won't have storms yet so hydras will still deal huge dmg while corruptors are good meatshield + corruption + not that bad damage + are more mobile. Once you let toss build huge deatbhall then you are probably fucked but let's hope blizz will fix this somehow. (i predict voidray nerf) The key is to balance composition correctly vs what u face
Vs Terran i think 3 base muta ling bane with big emphasis on creep spread and flanking(this!) basically makes your economy and bases untouchable if you macro and engage correctly. Then big switch to ultra infestor bane ling (vipers are okay too i guess) once you have your 5 bases established. The key here is to make just 8-12 mutas and just deny drops and gain total map control and focus on lings and banelings and teching and ecoing. Pretty much old style of WoL but polished; flanking, ovie speed (gain full map vision, all ovies spreaded) to snipe mines, burrow mines yourself, creep spread etc. Mutas dont even need to deal huge damage, they just are good map control tool
Vs zerg i basically totally agree. In current metagame mass +1+1 lings are especially powerful
On January 18 2013 04:01 Papulatus wrote: I feel like Zerg is just unplayable right now in HotS.
ZvP is unwinnable if the protoss is half competent and knows how to build void rays. I just had a game where the opponent was on 4 base and I was on 8 base and he won easy.
ZvT is unwinnable if terran half knows what he's doing. Widow mines shut down any attack at all early game and widow mines used correct make mutas useless. With the new medivac speed and the inability to use mutas, this match up is impossible.
ZvZ is completely stale with the only possible viable option muta v. muta.
I'm really really starting to lose hope in Blizzard, especially when DB goes and makes jokes about how his stalker army lost to a bunch of void rays. This VR issue is so clear and Blizzard has been silent on it.
Zerg isn't unplayable in hots. Luckily most protoss players aren't competent or are very kind not go do mass void rays. In my high GM level I play tosses who add in void rays, but they don't add in like a ton or go full out. But yeah I agree with you if the toss knows how to turtle while getting his mass air army you can't win it's over if your aggression doesn't break him at all.
zvt while I think widow mines are incredibly powerful tvz, I would not say they are imba (at least not yet). If you see a player going mass widow mine, going swarmhost probably isn't an awful idea unless they have a ton of tanks with it. From what I have been doing if terran player goes lots of widow mines I end up going bl/corr/infestor and will switch back to ultras if he ends up killing the army (ravens are really good and viable now terrans finally started using them now).
zvz is awesome cause muta vs muta is actually fun unlike the mass infestor play that is used 99.9% of the time in WoL.
zvt while I think widow mines are incredibly powerful tvz, I would not say they are imba (at least not yet). If you see a player going mass widow mine, going swarmhost probably isn't an awful idea unless they have a ton of tanks with it. From what I have been doing if terran player goes lots of widow mines I end up going bl/corr/infestor and will switch back to ultras if he ends up killing the army (ravens are really good and viable now terrans finally started using them now).
Have u ever played late game vs a terran turtling with mass siege tank / widow mines / vikings/ a few thors behind his planetaries + turrets, cutting the map in half (what mech did in old days on maps like shakuras)
That was the most frustrating 1 hour long game vs terran I've had which I lost... and yes this is in GM. I got every upgrade there is in the game, I guess I maxed on fully upgraded t3 armies like 4 times and ended up losing. Tried max ultra / ling / queen, then broods / corruptors / queens / festors, then ultra / hydra / viper.... I just maxed with every comp I thought would be good vs his style but eventually got broke on resourses lol. The thing with ultras was that they got like 1 shooted if u came too close to the widow mines, thought hydras would be good to clean them up, but siege tanks with vikings granting vision for his tanks and microing back widow mines .. T_T
Got any suggestions on what to do next time I meet a turtle terran like that??
zvt while I think widow mines are incredibly powerful tvz, I would not say they are imba (at least not yet). If you see a player going mass widow mine, going swarmhost probably isn't an awful idea unless they have a ton of tanks with it. From what I have been doing if terran player goes lots of widow mines I end up going bl/corr/infestor and will switch back to ultras if he ends up killing the army (ravens are really good and viable now terrans finally started using them now).
Have u ever played late game vs a terran turtling with mass siege tank / widow mines / vikings/ a few thors behind his planetaries + turrets, cutting the map in half (what mech did in old days on maps like shakuras)
That was the most frustrating 1 hour long game vs terran I've had which I lost... and yes this is in GM. I got every upgrade there is in the game, I guess I maxed on fully upgraded t3 armies like 4 times and ended up losing. Tried max ultra / ling / queen, then broods / corruptors / queens / festors, then ultra / hydra / viper.... I just maxed with every comp I thought would be good vs his style but eventually got broke on resourses lol. The thing with ultras was that they got like 1 shooted if u came too close to the widow mines, thought hydras would be good to clean them up, but siege tanks with vikings granting vision for his tanks and microing back widow mines .. T_T
Got any suggestions on what to do next time I meet a turtle terran like that??
I would recommend thinking about widow mines late game as similar to tanks, where they do splash damage to friendly units. So along with tanks and widow mines, either swarm hosts or broodlords (because of free units) would be a good idea. A few vipers are also handy for the planetaries and because mech is slow, blinding cloud is very effective. You could also add in a few swarm hosts since they are more mobile then broodlords. The good thing is if they make lots of vikings just switch to more swarm host heavy. Having some ultras/infestors/queens is also great just so they cant run their thors under you. I'm assuming you can get all of this since it seems like it was more or less a split map game.
zvt while I think widow mines are incredibly powerful tvz, I would not say they are imba (at least not yet). If you see a player going mass widow mine, going swarmhost probably isn't an awful idea unless they have a ton of tanks with it. From what I have been doing if terran player goes lots of widow mines I end up going bl/corr/infestor and will switch back to ultras if he ends up killing the army (ravens are really good and viable now terrans finally started using them now).
Have u ever played late game vs a terran turtling with mass siege tank / widow mines / vikings/ a few thors behind his planetaries + turrets, cutting the map in half (what mech did in old days on maps like shakuras)
That was the most frustrating 1 hour long game vs terran I've had which I lost... and yes this is in GM. I got every upgrade there is in the game, I guess I maxed on fully upgraded t3 armies like 4 times and ended up losing. Tried max ultra / ling / queen, then broods / corruptors / queens / festors, then ultra / hydra / viper.... I just maxed with every comp I thought would be good vs his style but eventually got broke on resourses lol. The thing with ultras was that they got like 1 shooted if u came too close to the widow mines, thought hydras would be good to clean them up, but siege tanks with vikings granting vision for his tanks and microing back widow mines .. T_T
Got any suggestions on what to do next time I meet a turtle terran like that??
Yeah well if you maxed out on bl/corr/infestor with 3-3 upgrades I can't see a viking/widow mine army beating that unless you didn't have detection.
It is really powerful, widow mines are really frustrating to play against when the terran uses them correctly. But in general I still rarely lose to mech cause vipers are still good
Hey guys, WoL-silver Zerg here Due to my lack of time in the past for WoL I decided to switch to HotS as soon as it's out. So I got my Beta-Key last week and now I want to train to get a feeling for the game again and to have a very good start after it's officially released.
I haven't played WoL for a very long time so I'm not used to common BOs anymore, so here are some questions for HotS:
Does anyone have some good BOs to start with for every match-up and some decent over-all plans? In ZvT I used to start 14/14 get my expansion at 21 and tried to get Ling/bling/muta, is this still viable in HotS? Furthermore I have no plan what to do in ZvP and ZvZ. I've read some threads here in the forums but didn't find any useful hints. I used to play very defensively vs Zerg in WoL, staying on 1-base for some time and insta-tech to Mutas which was back then a very good tactic in my league as I experienced, but how do I play ZvZ in general nowadays in HotS? Last but not least how do I play vs Protoss...I'm really clueless in this match-up.
So thanks for reading and it would be really awesome if you guys could help me out, because I want to get higher than silverleague this time
On January 21 2013 03:57 Tampuk wrote: Hey guys, WoL-silver Zerg here Due to my lack of time in the past for WoL I decided to switch to HotS as soon as it's out. So I got my Beta-Key last week and now I want to train to get a feeling for the game again and to have a very good start after it's officially released.
I haven't played WoL for a very long time so I'm not used to common BOs anymore, so here are some questions for HotS:
Does anyone have some good BOs to start with for every match-up and some decent over-all plans? In ZvT I used to start 14/14 get my expansion at 21 and tried to get Ling/bling/muta, is this still viable in HotS? Furthermore I have no plan what to do in ZvP and ZvZ. I've read some threads here in the forums but didn't find any useful hints. I used to play very defensively vs Zerg in WoL, staying on 1-base for some time and insta-tech to Mutas which was back then a very good tactic in my league as I experienced, but how do I play ZvZ in general nowadays in HotS? Last but not least how do I play vs Protoss...I'm really clueless in this match-up.
So thanks for reading and it would be really awesome if you guys could help me out, because I want to get higher than silverleague this time
in ZvZ and ZvT go 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas as you start getting better in ZvT you can skp the gas and get gas after you ahve 4 queens
in ZvP go 14 pool, 15 hatch (assuming theres no pylon block) and if they FFE (thats frogefast expand) then take a third at 4:30 and double gas at 6:00
ZvT: I'm not sure I understand the match up correctly. So I usually go Muta/Ling/Bane and do incredibly well against Bio or even MarineTank but when I go up against Mech, it can get a little shaky. I tend to go double upgrade (Melee/Carapace) before Lair but when I actually end up scounting Mech, my Melee upgrades are about halfway done. Should I Carapace/Lair first and upgrade attack a little later? You can't really scout multiple Factories until much later anyways. Also army composition wise, should I be going Muta/Ling/Bane or go WoL style with Ling/Bane/Infestors?
On January 22 2013 14:24 raybasto wrote: ZvT: I'm not sure I understand the match up correctly. So I usually go Muta/Ling/Bane and do incredibly well against Bio or even MarineTank but when I go up against Mech, it can get a little shaky. I tend to go double upgrade (Melee/Carapace) before Lair but when I actually end up scounting Mech, my Melee upgrades are about halfway done. Should I Carapace/Lair first and upgrade attack a little later? You can't really scout multiple Factories until much later anyways. Also army composition wise, should I be going Muta/Ling/Bane or go WoL style with Ling/Bane/Infestors?
against mech you want raoch/hydra/viper dont know why you think ling/bane wold work well against mech
On January 22 2013 14:24 raybasto wrote: ZvT: I'm not sure I understand the match up correctly. So I usually go Muta/Ling/Bane and do incredibly well against Bio or even MarineTank but when I go up against Mech, it can get a little shaky. I tend to go double upgrade (Melee/Carapace) before Lair but when I actually end up scounting Mech, my Melee upgrades are about halfway done. Should I Carapace/Lair first and upgrade attack a little later? You can't really scout multiple Factories until much later anyways. Also army composition wise, should I be going Muta/Ling/Bane or go WoL style with Ling/Bane/Infestors?
Just keep the melee upgrades going.
Best way to fight mech that I have been doing personally (well even easier then roach/hydra/viper) is going roach/hydra - fast hive - vipers - add in ultra/ling after initial vipers. That's what I do, so I get melee/carapace no matter what and go fast hive and once I get ultra/viper out easy peasy :p.
Thanks for the advice. Couple more questions. ZvT: Against Battle Hellions/Marine and going Ling/Bane, do you just make a bunch of Banes to combat this? Obviously going mass Ling, like what I used to do against Hellions in WoL, don't work anymore and going reactive Roach den when you see Battle Hellion don't come out fast enough
ZvZ: I've been going +1 Carapace over Banes in ZvZ and have been seeing some success, but by the time they get Mutas out, I don't get out as many as they do. Anyone else go +1 Carapace and know how to make this work out?
On January 22 2013 15:05 raybasto wrote: Thanks for the advice. Couple more questions. ZvT: Against Battle Hellions/Marine and going Ling/Bane, do you just make a bunch of Banes to combat this? Obviously going mass Ling, like what I used to do against Hellions in WoL, don't work anymore and going reactive Roach den when you see Battle Hellion don't come out fast enough
ZvZ: I've been going +1 Carapace over Banes in ZvZ and have been seeing some success, but by the time they get Mutas out, I don't get out as many as they do. Anyone else go +1 Carapace and know how to make this work out?
ZvT: might be a good idea to jsut always get an early roach warren and get a few roachs out to help against stuff like that but otherwise you would want banelings and stry to jsut blow up as much as you can as fast as you can also if you can lure him into spines would help you immensly
ZvZ: if you skip the baneling nest you shouldnt be that far behind him gas wise, your spending 150 gas on the +1 carapace and hes spending 50 gas on the nest and probably another 50 on safety banelings so youd only wind up max 100 gas behind so sounds like a macro problem on your end, maybe not getting gas fast enough or something
if you do go for +1 carapace you should be suing your lings to counter when his mutas move out since there more durable and more reliable then his lings (probably) are
On January 22 2013 15:05 raybasto wrote: Thanks for the advice. Couple more questions. ZvT: Against Battle Hellions/Marine and going Ling/Bane, do you just make a bunch of Banes to combat this? Obviously going mass Ling, like what I used to do against Hellions in WoL, don't work anymore and going reactive Roach den when you see Battle Hellion don't come out fast enough
ZvZ: I've been going +1 Carapace over Banes in ZvZ and have been seeing some success, but by the time they get Mutas out, I don't get out as many as they do. Anyone else go +1 Carapace and know how to make this work out?
ZvT I feel you have to have a roach warren at minimum as battle hellions eat lings alive. This is personal opinion but I do think you have to have a roach warren and just make roaches if you see battle hellions.
For zvz I never go +1 carapace and would pick banelings over that everytime especially when going muta play personally. But it sounds like you may be getting your gases later if you are always behind on muta count starting out.
On January 22 2013 15:41 raybasto wrote: ZvZ gas timings is first gas at 17 supply (If 15 Hatch 16 Pool), second gas at 5:30, and 3rd/4th gas when you start Lair?
ZvT I'll try to make a preemptive Roach den when I see the Battle Hellions then.
Thanks for the help!
2 timings you can do zvz.
Can get 2nd gas at 6, start lair 6:30 and get 3rd/4'th at same time or at 6:30 start lair and get 2nd,3rd,4'th gas at same time. I think most zergs do 6:30 lair + 2nd, third and 4'th gas.
On January 18 2013 04:01 Papulatus wrote: I feel like Zerg is just unplayable right now in HotS.
ZvP is unwinnable if the protoss is half competent and knows how to build void rays. I just had a game where the opponent was on 4 base and I was on 8 base and he won easy.
ZvT is unwinnable if terran half knows what he's doing. Widow mines shut down any attack at all early game and widow mines used correct make mutas useless. With the new medivac speed and the inability to use mutas, this match up is impossible.
ZvZ is completely stale with the only possible viable option muta v. muta.
I'm really really starting to lose hope in Blizzard, especially when DB goes and makes jokes about how his stalker army lost to a bunch of void rays. This VR issue is so clear and Blizzard has been silent on it.
I think people are too quick to criticize what blizzard is doing. Some things just take time to develop. Maybe if player x does y build, then z build can kill it. At the moment there are not enough consistent builds to be able to determine things. Each player is kinda doing his/her own thing and that is why sometimes it is hard to adjust.
Personally in ZvP i go ling/hydra (some roaches) if they open stargate and pressure with that and get a spire behind it. If they over prepare for the spire by making loads of pheonix then I just continue on with ling/hydra and maybe add some corrupters and transition into late game. However if they go robo or open robo then I like going mutas. Again this is how I play and what works for me might now work for you but currently I have roughly 65~70% winrate vs Protoss at GM level.
Against Terran I have had much success with ling/bane/muta into ultra/infestor/viper/bane. I think mutas are very useful to stop and more importantly discourage drop play. If facing widow mines, getting ovie speed and using a speed overlord with a pack of mutas is helpful (ie. run in a muta to tank the widow shot, then kill it with the rest of the mutas while sending the injured muta home until it regens). Speed overlords are also useful since it takes 2 widow mines (150/50) which is 4 supply worth to take out a no supply (100/0) unit. Sending in a group of speed ovies ahead of your army will help tank the widow mine shots. Late game I believe zerg is at an advantage since ultras are much better.
ZvZ is very versatile I think nowadays. Most people have trouble defending mass muta which is why they tend to go mutas themselves, however it is not impossible to hold. Also +1 ling infestors are strong currently. With games I have played it seems that it is possible to play ZvZ in 3 ways. Old roach/infestor/hydra, ling/infestor/ultra, and mass muta. This seems to give more flexibility to the match up where in my opinion roach>ling>muta>roach. By greater than I just mean that with the games I have played and seen that the person that counters the other persons build is slightly ahead or has an easier time. This could also make scouting more important and seeing clues with what their composition in the mid and late game will be.
Obviously this is all my opinion so if any of you disagree then obviously you are eligible to have your own opinion on things. However I think that we as a community are too quick to criticize some things. If you could travel back in time to early WoL and play somebody that was slightly better then you, you would still probably win since your understanding of the game is greater, and that's what I think the greatest problem in HotS is. It is too short of time to get used to how to play with patches coming every 2 weeks or so and with each player having their own style some builds that might be terrible in 2 years time will beat you now since we do not know how to react properly.
Thanks for the post. Those are very helpful suggestions, I never thought of using speed overlords to clear widow mines. If these strategies become standard in HotS, I will be much happier with HotS than WoL as a zerg.
Hello I need some advice. I just meet someone in ZvZ instead of mass Muta he mix in some corruptor and it's quite annoying to kill him. The map is Could Kingdom and it's quite small and he got third earlier than me so it's hard for me to find a good angle to attack
On January 22 2013 23:18 BlueKatz wrote: Hello I need some advice. I just meet someone in ZvZ instead of mass Muta he mix in some corruptor and it's quite annoying to kill him. The map is Could Kingdom and it's quite small and he got third earlier than me so it's hard for me to find a good angle to attack
So what should I do in that case?
abuse his lack of mobility
also you should have been trying to kill the third
On January 23 2013 15:02 IronyDK wrote: I havent won a single ZvP/T the last 3 days except against bio. Protoss players just seem to turtle then 1a and especially on certain maps it's really hard for me to find anywhere to attack. And lategame, they just have a million voidrays with some hightemplars and colossus or carriers, any amount of corrupters just dies to it, and hydras get owned by storms really hard.
vs terran I just find it hard to get a 3rd if they open with agressive widow mines that just contains me for way too long, and if their follow up is a mech timing I'm going to be DOWN on bases AND supply and just get owned by their timing. And since they have widow mines with them roaches also die like flies so it's really hard to even engage the timing without some hive tech units, OR a supply advantage.
Any help?
not really
ZvP the best you can do is stephano style aggression with hydras and jsut try to keep him on 3 bases at least and not making stargate units
ZvT widow mines are so hard to deal with since even with detection we have no choice but to face tank the damage
On January 23 2013 15:02 IronyDK wrote: I havent won a single ZvP/T the last 3 days except against bio. Protoss players just seem to turtle then 1a and especially on certain maps it's really hard for me to find anywhere to attack. And lategame, they just have a million voidrays with some hightemplars and colossus or carriers, any amount of corrupters just dies to it, and hydras get owned by storms really hard.
vs terran I just find it hard to get a 3rd if they open with agressive widow mines that just contains me for way too long, and if their follow up is a mech timing I'm going to be DOWN on bases AND supply and just get owned by their timing. And since they have widow mines with them roaches also die like flies so it's really hard to even engage the timing without some hive tech units, OR a supply advantage.
Any help?
not really
ZvP the best you can do is stephano style aggression with hydras and jsut try to keep him on 3 bases at least and not making stargate units
ZvT widow mines are so hard to deal with since even with detection we have no choice but to face tank the damage
Is it better to go Roach/Ling/Infestor just because of the threat of Widow Mines then? I've been having trouble against this as well. Usually I just try defend everything and try to rush Ultras and kill them that way but if I don't kill them with Ultras, it gets a little sketchy. Widow mines deflect runbys and its hard to get the Terran to give up their position without any sort of runby
Another question regarding ZvT: What's the safest opening now? I used to go 4 Queens double gas at 36, 1/1 Lings and then Lair. Take Third right after you Lair. The thing is there are so many potent openings that Terrans have now a days (Hellbats, Hellbats drop, Hellion Banshee, and Widow Mine opening) that its hard to safety tech and take a third. Are Roaches the answer?
On January 23 2013 15:02 IronyDK wrote: I havent won a single ZvP/T the last 3 days except against bio. Protoss players just seem to turtle then 1a and especially on certain maps it's really hard for me to find anywhere to attack. And lategame, they just have a million voidrays with some hightemplars and colossus or carriers, any amount of corrupters just dies to it, and hydras get owned by storms really hard.
vs terran I just find it hard to get a 3rd if they open with agressive widow mines that just contains me for way too long, and if their follow up is a mech timing I'm going to be DOWN on bases AND supply and just get owned by their timing. And since they have widow mines with them roaches also die like flies so it's really hard to even engage the timing without some hive tech units, OR a supply advantage.
Any help?
Zvp is hard you have to try and kill them before they get critical sky toss up. If they get sky toss up you lose unfortunately not much you can do about it if they get it up.
For zvt vs mech you should make a spore crawler and move it so that you can kill the mines or get a third at least if he has a widow mine at the third base.
Mech is actually not that hard to beat all you need to do is once you hit lair - get infestation pit - start hive asap as soon as hive finishes get vipers immediately. You will use roach/hydra/ling to hold off any mech timings (there shouldn't be if he is doing widow mines aggressively early in the game, most mech timings hit later and you should have vipers out + energy for blinding cloud by the time they attack).
I rarely lose vs mech and this is what I do every time I face mech. I do add in ultralisks as well after initial vipers.
On January 23 2013 15:02 IronyDK wrote: I havent won a single ZvP/T the last 3 days except against bio. Protoss players just seem to turtle then 1a and especially on certain maps it's really hard for me to find anywhere to attack. And lategame, they just have a million voidrays with some hightemplars and colossus or carriers, any amount of corrupters just dies to it, and hydras get owned by storms really hard.
vs terran I just find it hard to get a 3rd if they open with agressive widow mines that just contains me for way too long, and if their follow up is a mech timing I'm going to be DOWN on bases AND supply and just get owned by their timing. And since they have widow mines with them roaches also die like flies so it's really hard to even engage the timing without some hive tech units, OR a supply advantage.
Any help?
not really
ZvP the best you can do is stephano style aggression with hydras and jsut try to keep him on 3 bases at least and not making stargate units
ZvT widow mines are so hard to deal with since even with detection we have no choice but to face tank the damage
Is it better to go Roach/Ling/Infestor just because of the threat of Widow Mines then? I've been having trouble against this as well. Usually I just try defend everything and try to rush Ultras and kill them that way but if I don't kill them with Ultras, it gets a little sketchy. Widow mines deflect runbys and its hard to get the Terran to give up their position without any sort of runby
Another question regarding ZvT: What's the safest opening now? I used to go 4 Queens double gas at 36, 1/1 Lings and then Lair. Take Third right after you Lair. The thing is there are so many potent openings that Terrans have now a days (Hellbats, Hellbats drop, Hellion Banshee, and Widow Mine opening) that its hard to safety tech and take a third. Are Roaches the answer?
Yes I think roaches are the way to go, roach hydra in the mid game, play aggressive and expand a lot, then add Vipers and Ultras on Hive. No attack upgrades on ultras don't matter, they do tons of damage either way and you can get them for the super lategame. Mix in banes against heavy bio with good upgrades to survive the mid game.
Against Bio or bio tank ling/bling/muta into ultras is super good now I think. Don't know about roach into muta against mech, didn't try yet.
Just my thoughts from diamond level games and Idra's stream :D.
On January 23 2013 15:02 IronyDK wrote: I havent won a single ZvP/T the last 3 days except against bio. Protoss players just seem to turtle then 1a and especially on certain maps it's really hard for me to find anywhere to attack. And lategame, they just have a million voidrays with some hightemplars and colossus or carriers, any amount of corrupters just dies to it, and hydras get owned by storms really hard.
vs terran I just find it hard to get a 3rd if they open with agressive widow mines that just contains me for way too long, and if their follow up is a mech timing I'm going to be DOWN on bases AND supply and just get owned by their timing. And since they have widow mines with them roaches also die like flies so it's really hard to even engage the timing without some hive tech units, OR a supply advantage.
Any help?
not really
ZvP the best you can do is stephano style aggression with hydras and jsut try to keep him on 3 bases at least and not making stargate units
ZvT widow mines are so hard to deal with since even with detection we have no choice but to face tank the damage
Is it better to go Roach/Ling/Infestor just because of the threat of Widow Mines then? I've been having trouble against this as well. Usually I just try defend everything and try to rush Ultras and kill them that way but if I don't kill them with Ultras, it gets a little sketchy. Widow mines deflect runbys and its hard to get the Terran to give up their position without any sort of runby
Another question regarding ZvT: What's the safest opening now? I used to go 4 Queens double gas at 36, 1/1 Lings and then Lair. Take Third right after you Lair. The thing is there are so many potent openings that Terrans have now a days (Hellbats, Hellbats drop, Hellion Banshee, and Widow Mine opening) that its hard to safety tech and take a third. Are Roaches the answer?
if they have widow mines then there probably going mech in which case you want roach/hydra/viper (hydras thankfully outrange the mines) if there going bio/tank and have some mines then best thing you can do is to use lings/overlord to bait out the mines and make sure you kill the mines, if there not going mech they dont have the factory power to keep producing mines
id say 4 queen is still the best opening get a fast-ish evo chamber and put a spine at your front and he wont be able to easily sneak in widow mines and when they do have an overlrod eat the shot, burrow a spore near it and kill it (overlrods can tank 2 shots and widow mines reload ridic slow)
im starting to experiment with jsut opening 8~ roachs and just sending them to pressure makes him less likely to want to put pressure back and if they do something like hellion/banshee into 3 CC you can pretty much kill them there
On January 23 2013 15:02 IronyDK wrote: I havent won a single ZvP/T the last 3 days except against bio. Protoss players just seem to turtle then 1a and especially on certain maps it's really hard for me to find anywhere to attack. And lategame, they just have a million voidrays with some hightemplars and colossus or carriers, any amount of corrupters just dies to it, and hydras get owned by storms really hard.
vs terran I just find it hard to get a 3rd if they open with agressive widow mines that just contains me for way too long, and if their follow up is a mech timing I'm going to be DOWN on bases AND supply and just get owned by their timing. And since they have widow mines with them roaches also die like flies so it's really hard to even engage the timing without some hive tech units, OR a supply advantage.
Any help?
not really
ZvP the best you can do is stephano style aggression with hydras and jsut try to keep him on 3 bases at least and not making stargate units
ZvT widow mines are so hard to deal with since even with detection we have no choice but to face tank the damage
Is it better to go Roach/Ling/Infestor just because of the threat of Widow Mines then? I've been having trouble against this as well. Usually I just try defend everything and try to rush Ultras and kill them that way but if I don't kill them with Ultras, it gets a little sketchy. Widow mines deflect runbys and its hard to get the Terran to give up their position without any sort of runby
Another question regarding ZvT: What's the safest opening now? I used to go 4 Queens double gas at 36, 1/1 Lings and then Lair. Take Third right after you Lair. The thing is there are so many potent openings that Terrans have now a days (Hellbats, Hellbats drop, Hellion Banshee, and Widow Mine opening) that its hard to safety tech and take a third. Are Roaches the answer?
if they have widow mines then there probably going mech in which case you want roach/hydra/viper (hydras thankfully outrange the mines) if there going bio/tank and have some mines then best thing you can do is to use lings/overlord to bait out the mines and make sure you kill the mines, if there not going mech they dont have the factory power to keep producing mines
id say 4 queen is still the best opening get a fast-ish evo chamber and put a spine at your front and he wont be able to easily sneak in widow mines and when they do have an overlrod eat the shot, burrow a spore near it and kill it (overlrods can tank 2 shots and widow mines reload ridic slow)
im starting to experiment with jsut opening 8~ roachs and just sending them to pressure makes him less likely to want to put pressure back and if they do something like hellion/banshee into 3 CC you can pretty much kill them there
I just want to state something you said that is incorrect. Bio + widow mines is actually really powerful and very viable. Widow mines does not mean mech at all. I am seeing more and more terrans (although really only a select few are using them good) going widow mine + bio.
It is very powerful and can be a good replacement for tanks (at least for now). It's hard to trigger it with a ling or 2 cause their bio kills the lings before the mine can activate. So when you engage you are almost forced to be hit by the mines which means as a zerg you are going to need to split army before engaging so you don't take to much splash damage.
On January 23 2013 15:02 IronyDK wrote: I havent won a single ZvP/T the last 3 days except against bio. Protoss players just seem to turtle then 1a and especially on certain maps it's really hard for me to find anywhere to attack. And lategame, they just have a million voidrays with some hightemplars and colossus or carriers, any amount of corrupters just dies to it, and hydras get owned by storms really hard.
vs terran I just find it hard to get a 3rd if they open with agressive widow mines that just contains me for way too long, and if their follow up is a mech timing I'm going to be DOWN on bases AND supply and just get owned by their timing. And since they have widow mines with them roaches also die like flies so it's really hard to even engage the timing without some hive tech units, OR a supply advantage.
Any help?
not really
ZvP the best you can do is stephano style aggression with hydras and jsut try to keep him on 3 bases at least and not making stargate units
ZvT widow mines are so hard to deal with since even with detection we have no choice but to face tank the damage
Is it better to go Roach/Ling/Infestor just because of the threat of Widow Mines then? I've been having trouble against this as well. Usually I just try defend everything and try to rush Ultras and kill them that way but if I don't kill them with Ultras, it gets a little sketchy. Widow mines deflect runbys and its hard to get the Terran to give up their position without any sort of runby
Another question regarding ZvT: What's the safest opening now? I used to go 4 Queens double gas at 36, 1/1 Lings and then Lair. Take Third right after you Lair. The thing is there are so many potent openings that Terrans have now a days (Hellbats, Hellbats drop, Hellion Banshee, and Widow Mine opening) that its hard to safety tech and take a third. Are Roaches the answer?
if they have widow mines then there probably going mech in which case you want roach/hydra/viper (hydras thankfully outrange the mines) if there going bio/tank and have some mines then best thing you can do is to use lings/overlord to bait out the mines and make sure you kill the mines, if there not going mech they dont have the factory power to keep producing mines
id say 4 queen is still the best opening get a fast-ish evo chamber and put a spine at your front and he wont be able to easily sneak in widow mines and when they do have an overlrod eat the shot, burrow a spore near it and kill it (overlrods can tank 2 shots and widow mines reload ridic slow)
im starting to experiment with jsut opening 8~ roachs and just sending them to pressure makes him less likely to want to put pressure back and if they do something like hellion/banshee into 3 CC you can pretty much kill them there
I just want to state something you said that is incorrect. Bio + widow mines is actually really powerful and very viable. Widow mines does not mean mech at all. I am seeing more and more terrans (although really only a select few are using them good) going widow mine + bio.
It is very powerful and can be a good replacement for tanks (at least for now). It's hard to trigger it with a ling or 2 cause their bio kills the lings before the mine can activate. So when you engage you are almost forced to be hit by the mines which means as a zerg you are going to need to split army before engaging so you don't take to much splash damage.
i think i remember a terran doing that once on IdrAs stream, are widow mines really an effective replacement of siege tanks?
seems like you can fly a few dummy overlords in with your army, youll take some of the forward mines hits on your lings but the marines wont autotarget the OLs down before the widow mines attack them
how i see it is run in with your ling army while flying overlords above so the marines are busy engaging the zergligns and the OLs can soak mines
On January 23 2013 15:02 IronyDK wrote: I havent won a single ZvP/T the last 3 days except against bio. Protoss players just seem to turtle then 1a and especially on certain maps it's really hard for me to find anywhere to attack. And lategame, they just have a million voidrays with some hightemplars and colossus or carriers, any amount of corrupters just dies to it, and hydras get owned by storms really hard.
vs terran I just find it hard to get a 3rd if they open with agressive widow mines that just contains me for way too long, and if their follow up is a mech timing I'm going to be DOWN on bases AND supply and just get owned by their timing. And since they have widow mines with them roaches also die like flies so it's really hard to even engage the timing without some hive tech units, OR a supply advantage.
Any help?
not really
ZvP the best you can do is stephano style aggression with hydras and jsut try to keep him on 3 bases at least and not making stargate units
ZvT widow mines are so hard to deal with since even with detection we have no choice but to face tank the damage
Is it better to go Roach/Ling/Infestor just because of the threat of Widow Mines then? I've been having trouble against this as well. Usually I just try defend everything and try to rush Ultras and kill them that way but if I don't kill them with Ultras, it gets a little sketchy. Widow mines deflect runbys and its hard to get the Terran to give up their position without any sort of runby
Another question regarding ZvT: What's the safest opening now? I used to go 4 Queens double gas at 36, 1/1 Lings and then Lair. Take Third right after you Lair. The thing is there are so many potent openings that Terrans have now a days (Hellbats, Hellbats drop, Hellion Banshee, and Widow Mine opening) that its hard to safety tech and take a third. Are Roaches the answer?
if they have widow mines then there probably going mech in which case you want roach/hydra/viper (hydras thankfully outrange the mines) if there going bio/tank and have some mines then best thing you can do is to use lings/overlord to bait out the mines and make sure you kill the mines, if there not going mech they dont have the factory power to keep producing mines
id say 4 queen is still the best opening get a fast-ish evo chamber and put a spine at your front and he wont be able to easily sneak in widow mines and when they do have an overlrod eat the shot, burrow a spore near it and kill it (overlrods can tank 2 shots and widow mines reload ridic slow)
im starting to experiment with jsut opening 8~ roachs and just sending them to pressure makes him less likely to want to put pressure back and if they do something like hellion/banshee into 3 CC you can pretty much kill them there
I just want to state something you said that is incorrect. Bio + widow mines is actually really powerful and very viable. Widow mines does not mean mech at all. I am seeing more and more terrans (although really only a select few are using them good) going widow mine + bio.
It is very powerful and can be a good replacement for tanks (at least for now). It's hard to trigger it with a ling or 2 cause their bio kills the lings before the mine can activate. So when you engage you are almost forced to be hit by the mines which means as a zerg you are going to need to split army before engaging so you don't take to much splash damage.
i think i remember a terran doing that once on IdrAs stream, are widow mines really an effective replacement of siege tanks?
seems like you can fly a few dummy overlords in with your army, youll take some of the forward mines hits on your lings but the marines wont autotarget the OLs down before the widow mines attack them
how i see it is run in with your ling army while flying overlords above so the marines are busy engaging the zergligns and the OLs can soak mines
Well splash damage would still hit lings still. Overlords going over might help buffer damage but then you have to realize you better be remaking overlords as throwing away 5 or so overlords everytime to try and get rid of 10 mine detonations is expensive that is 500 minerals.
I imagine that is going to be good in theory, but even then it's still strong even if you can get some of the mines to hit overlords.
On January 23 2013 15:02 IronyDK wrote: I havent won a single ZvP/T the last 3 days except against bio. Protoss players just seem to turtle then 1a and especially on certain maps it's really hard for me to find anywhere to attack. And lategame, they just have a million voidrays with some hightemplars and colossus or carriers, any amount of corrupters just dies to it, and hydras get owned by storms really hard.
vs terran I just find it hard to get a 3rd if they open with agressive widow mines that just contains me for way too long, and if their follow up is a mech timing I'm going to be DOWN on bases AND supply and just get owned by their timing. And since they have widow mines with them roaches also die like flies so it's really hard to even engage the timing without some hive tech units, OR a supply advantage.
Any help?
not really
ZvP the best you can do is stephano style aggression with hydras and jsut try to keep him on 3 bases at least and not making stargate units
ZvT widow mines are so hard to deal with since even with detection we have no choice but to face tank the damage
Is it better to go Roach/Ling/Infestor just because of the threat of Widow Mines then? I've been having trouble against this as well. Usually I just try defend everything and try to rush Ultras and kill them that way but if I don't kill them with Ultras, it gets a little sketchy. Widow mines deflect runbys and its hard to get the Terran to give up their position without any sort of runby
Another question regarding ZvT: What's the safest opening now? I used to go 4 Queens double gas at 36, 1/1 Lings and then Lair. Take Third right after you Lair. The thing is there are so many potent openings that Terrans have now a days (Hellbats, Hellbats drop, Hellion Banshee, and Widow Mine opening) that its hard to safety tech and take a third. Are Roaches the answer?
if they have widow mines then there probably going mech in which case you want roach/hydra/viper (hydras thankfully outrange the mines) if there going bio/tank and have some mines then best thing you can do is to use lings/overlord to bait out the mines and make sure you kill the mines, if there not going mech they dont have the factory power to keep producing mines
id say 4 queen is still the best opening get a fast-ish evo chamber and put a spine at your front and he wont be able to easily sneak in widow mines and when they do have an overlrod eat the shot, burrow a spore near it and kill it (overlrods can tank 2 shots and widow mines reload ridic slow)
im starting to experiment with jsut opening 8~ roachs and just sending them to pressure makes him less likely to want to put pressure back and if they do something like hellion/banshee into 3 CC you can pretty much kill them there
I just want to state something you said that is incorrect. Bio + widow mines is actually really powerful and very viable. Widow mines does not mean mech at all. I am seeing more and more terrans (although really only a select few are using them good) going widow mine + bio.
It is very powerful and can be a good replacement for tanks (at least for now). It's hard to trigger it with a ling or 2 cause their bio kills the lings before the mine can activate. So when you engage you are almost forced to be hit by the mines which means as a zerg you are going to need to split army before engaging so you don't take to much splash damage.
i think i remember a terran doing that once on IdrAs stream, are widow mines really an effective replacement of siege tanks?
seems like you can fly a few dummy overlords in with your army, youll take some of the forward mines hits on your lings but the marines wont autotarget the OLs down before the widow mines attack them
how i see it is run in with your ling army while flying overlords above so the marines are busy engaging the zergligns and the OLs can soak mines
Well splash damage would still hit lings still. Overlords going over might help buffer damage but then you have to realize you better be remaking overlords as throwing away 5 or so overlords everytime to try and get rid of 10 mine detonations is expensive that is 500 minerals.
I imagine that is going to be good in theory, but even then it's still strong even if you can get some of the mines to hit overlords.
wait if they ahve no siege tanks cant you jsut 10 range fungal them to death?
On January 23 2013 15:02 IronyDK wrote: I havent won a single ZvP/T the last 3 days except against bio. Protoss players just seem to turtle then 1a and especially on certain maps it's really hard for me to find anywhere to attack. And lategame, they just have a million voidrays with some hightemplars and colossus or carriers, any amount of corrupters just dies to it, and hydras get owned by storms really hard.
vs terran I just find it hard to get a 3rd if they open with agressive widow mines that just contains me for way too long, and if their follow up is a mech timing I'm going to be DOWN on bases AND supply and just get owned by their timing. And since they have widow mines with them roaches also die like flies so it's really hard to even engage the timing without some hive tech units, OR a supply advantage.
Any help?
not really
ZvP the best you can do is stephano style aggression with hydras and jsut try to keep him on 3 bases at least and not making stargate units
ZvT widow mines are so hard to deal with since even with detection we have no choice but to face tank the damage
Is it better to go Roach/Ling/Infestor just because of the threat of Widow Mines then? I've been having trouble against this as well. Usually I just try defend everything and try to rush Ultras and kill them that way but if I don't kill them with Ultras, it gets a little sketchy. Widow mines deflect runbys and its hard to get the Terran to give up their position without any sort of runby
Another question regarding ZvT: What's the safest opening now? I used to go 4 Queens double gas at 36, 1/1 Lings and then Lair. Take Third right after you Lair. The thing is there are so many potent openings that Terrans have now a days (Hellbats, Hellbats drop, Hellion Banshee, and Widow Mine opening) that its hard to safety tech and take a third. Are Roaches the answer?
if they have widow mines then there probably going mech in which case you want roach/hydra/viper (hydras thankfully outrange the mines) if there going bio/tank and have some mines then best thing you can do is to use lings/overlord to bait out the mines and make sure you kill the mines, if there not going mech they dont have the factory power to keep producing mines
id say 4 queen is still the best opening get a fast-ish evo chamber and put a spine at your front and he wont be able to easily sneak in widow mines and when they do have an overlrod eat the shot, burrow a spore near it and kill it (overlrods can tank 2 shots and widow mines reload ridic slow)
im starting to experiment with jsut opening 8~ roachs and just sending them to pressure makes him less likely to want to put pressure back and if they do something like hellion/banshee into 3 CC you can pretty much kill them there
I just want to state something you said that is incorrect. Bio + widow mines is actually really powerful and very viable. Widow mines does not mean mech at all. I am seeing more and more terrans (although really only a select few are using them good) going widow mine + bio.
It is very powerful and can be a good replacement for tanks (at least for now). It's hard to trigger it with a ling or 2 cause their bio kills the lings before the mine can activate. So when you engage you are almost forced to be hit by the mines which means as a zerg you are going to need to split army before engaging so you don't take to much splash damage.
i think i remember a terran doing that once on IdrAs stream, are widow mines really an effective replacement of siege tanks?
seems like you can fly a few dummy overlords in with your army, youll take some of the forward mines hits on your lings but the marines wont autotarget the OLs down before the widow mines attack them
how i see it is run in with your ling army while flying overlords above so the marines are busy engaging the zergligns and the OLs can soak mines
Well splash damage would still hit lings still. Overlords going over might help buffer damage but then you have to realize you better be remaking overlords as throwing away 5 or so overlords everytime to try and get rid of 10 mine detonations is expensive that is 500 minerals.
I imagine that is going to be good in theory, but even then it's still strong even if you can get some of the mines to hit overlords.
wait if they ahve no siege tanks cant you jsut 10 range fungal them to death?
Yeah you can fungal, but you still have to be careful when moving in with infestors or pop goes the infestor when a widow mine hits. I am not saying bio + widow mines is OP, it is counterable and everything, but it's strong as well at least at higher levels of play. At lower levels bio + widow mine I am not sure how good/bad it is, but for example watch thorzain do his widow mine + bio play. It's really strong ^^.
On January 28 2013 15:20 IronyDK wrote: How am I supposed to beat a critical mass of tempest with a few archons and rest is chargelots? they kill everything before it gets in range. 6bases vs 3, and I can't kill him because whenever I move close to his base his tempest destroy everything. Eventually he just 1a's into my 36 corrupters, with his 13 tempest and 2 archons. 9 tempest and 2archons remain after. splitting my corrupters didnt do anything,
sounds like roach/hydra would jsut shit all over that
On January 29 2013 01:30 IronyDK wrote: Except it didn't. You know, I had 6bases and about 5k5 when I started smacking one army after the other against him. Tempest just completely OWN everything I have.
how about you jsut post a replay instead of having the people helping you try a guessing game to figure out what happened?
cant seem to win against this.. toss opens up with ffe goes into 1sg 5phoenix, then takes 3rd, and sits on 3 bases making voids+carriers.. what do i do in this sittuation?
On January 29 2013 03:23 -iNko wrote: cant seem to win against this.. toss opens up with ffe goes into 1sg 5phoenix, then takes 3rd, and sits on 3 bases making voids+carriers.. what do i do in this sittuation?
Same problem I would love to hear some advice, pushes are hard against VRs and cannons.
On January 28 2013 15:20 IronyDK wrote: How am I supposed to beat a critical mass of tempest with a few archons and rest is chargelots? they kill everything before it gets in range. 6bases vs 3, and I can't kill him because whenever I move close to his base his tempest destroy everything. Eventually he just 1a's into my 36 corrupters, with his 13 tempest and 2 archons. 9 tempest and 2archons remain after. splitting my corrupters didnt do anything,
13 tempest + 2 archons, you just need 15 infestator and do 15 Neural parasite :D
On January 28 2013 15:20 IronyDK wrote: How am I supposed to beat a critical mass of tempest with a few archons and rest is chargelots? they kill everything before it gets in range. 6bases vs 3, and I can't kill him because whenever I move close to his base his tempest destroy everything. Eventually he just 1a's into my 36 corrupters, with his 13 tempest and 2 archons. 9 tempest and 2archons remain after. splitting my corrupters didnt do anything,
13 tempest + 2 archons, you just need 15 infestator and do 15 Neural parasite :D
That would never work lol. Unless the toss had a mental breakdown he would be focusing the infestors...
Anyway if he's just going tempest/archon/chargelot roach/hydra/corruptor will beat that very handily. Roach/hydra/viper as well but roach/hydra/corruptor would be better vs that composition imo.
No templar/colossi makes that easy. Wait until you play a player who turtles on 3 base with mass voidray/templar or voidray/colossi
On January 29 2013 03:23 -iNko wrote: cant seem to win against this.. toss opens up with ffe goes into 1sg 5phoenix, then takes 3rd, and sits on 3 bases making voids+carriers.. what do i do in this sittuation?
all you can do is try to ram roach/hydra/corrupter down his throat enough that you can prevent him from ever getting the deathball
it requires you to be able to macro, expand properly keep up the attack in an effective way and ensure it comes in never ending waves
it requires him to sit at his third keep warping shit in :/
What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
you cannot hatch first an expect to survive 10 pool baneling without life level micro
there is no safe and economical opening in all of starcraft you can either open safe and have less economy or open economy and be less safe
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
you cannot hatch first an expect to survive 10 pool baneling without life level micro
there is no safe and economical opening in all of starcraft you can either open safe and have less economy or open economy and be less safe
i like to do a 15h 16p 17g with a 9 dronescout (obv adjust vs early pools). its safe vs everything and very economically. just send a drone after you build your 9 overlord. that will give you enough time to scout main AND block his natural vs hatch first of your opponent meaning you will have your hatch sooner than him and get the extra economy you need to be even (since you lose some eco with dronescouting).
after blocking hatch just scout his main once again to scout his gas timings if you want to be extra safe or want to play extra greedy.
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
you cannot hatch first an expect to survive 10 pool baneling without life level micro
there is no safe and economical opening in all of starcraft you can either open safe and have less economy or open economy and be less safe
i like to do a 15h 16p 17g with a 9 dronescout (obv adjust vs early pools). its safe vs everything and very economically. just send a drone after you build your 9 overlord. that will give you enough time to scout main AND block his natural vs hatch first of your opponent meaning you will have your hatch sooner than him and get the extra economy you need to be even (since you lose some eco with dronescouting).
after blocking hatch just scout his main once again to scout his gas timings if you want to be extra safe or want to play extra greedy.
even if you get the faster hatch you have one less drone in the most critical time so hes still ahead economically.... especially if there smart enough to just drop the pool as soon as he sees the drone hanging at his nat, 15 pool 16 hatch is jsut barely less econimcal then 15 hatch and since he has one more drone all game he has the ecenomic lead
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
you cannot hatch first an expect to survive 10 pool baneling without life level micro
there is no safe and economical opening in all of starcraft you can either open safe and have less economy or open economy and be less safe
i like to do a 15h 16p 17g with a 9 dronescout (obv adjust vs early pools). its safe vs everything and very economically. just send a drone after you build your 9 overlord. that will give you enough time to scout main AND block his natural vs hatch first of your opponent meaning you will have your hatch sooner than him and get the extra economy you need to be even (since you lose some eco with dronescouting).
after blocking hatch just scout his main once again to scout his gas timings if you want to be extra safe or want to play extra greedy.
even if you get the faster hatch you have one less drone in the most critical time so hes still ahead economically.... especially if there smart enough to just drop the pool as soon as he sees the drone hanging at his nat, 15 pool 16 hatch is jsut barely less econimcal then 15 hatch and since he has one more drone all game he has the ecenomic lead
says who? you have any numbers for that? faster hatch = faster queens = better eco. i think you will be pretty even to a hatch first no dronescout that gets blocked or 15 pool 16 hatch but you have all information like gas and pool timings.
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
you cannot hatch first an expect to survive 10 pool baneling without life level micro
there is no safe and economical opening in all of starcraft you can either open safe and have less economy or open economy and be less safe
i like to do a 15h 16p 17g with a 9 dronescout (obv adjust vs early pools). its safe vs everything and very economically. just send a drone after you build your 9 overlord. that will give you enough time to scout main AND block his natural vs hatch first of your opponent meaning you will have your hatch sooner than him and get the extra economy you need to be even (since you lose some eco with dronescouting).
after blocking hatch just scout his main once again to scout his gas timings if you want to be extra safe or want to play extra greedy.
even if you get the faster hatch you have one less drone in the most critical time so hes still ahead economically.... especially if there smart enough to just drop the pool as soon as he sees the drone hanging at his nat, 15 pool 16 hatch is jsut barely less econimcal then 15 hatch and since he has one more drone all game he has the ecenomic lead
says who? you have any numbers for that? faster hatch = faster queens = better eco. i think you will be pretty even to a hatch first no dronescout that gets blocked or 15 pool 16 hatch but you have all information like gas and pool timings.
how about watch any professional game where one palyer 15 hatchs and the other 14 pools youll see that there supplys remain pretty much dead even and they still throw stuff down at around the same time except 15 hatch slightly faster
if you 14 pool your second queen pops at the same time that 15 hatchs 2 queens pop and you got one extra inject from your first queen so unless your opponent gets there hatch up a full minute sooner then you do you have around the same larvae (1 larvae every 15 seconds so 4 larvae (the same as the extra inject 14 pool gets) = 60 seconds)
in short drone scouting is resigning yourself to be behind economically
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
you cannot hatch first an expect to survive 10 pool baneling without life level micro
there is no safe and economical opening in all of starcraft you can either open safe and have less economy or open economy and be less safe
i like to do a 15h 16p 17g with a 9 dronescout (obv adjust vs early pools). its safe vs everything and very economically. just send a drone after you build your 9 overlord. that will give you enough time to scout main AND block his natural vs hatch first of your opponent meaning you will have your hatch sooner than him and get the extra economy you need to be even (since you lose some eco with dronescouting).
after blocking hatch just scout his main once again to scout his gas timings if you want to be extra safe or want to play extra greedy.
even if you get the faster hatch you have one less drone in the most critical time so hes still ahead economically.... especially if there smart enough to just drop the pool as soon as he sees the drone hanging at his nat, 15 pool 16 hatch is jsut barely less econimcal then 15 hatch and since he has one more drone all game he has the ecenomic lead
says who? you have any numbers for that? faster hatch = faster queens = better eco. i think you will be pretty even to a hatch first no dronescout that gets blocked or 15 pool 16 hatch but you have all information like gas and pool timings.
Faster hatch doesn't = faster queens, faster pool = faster queen. You might get your 2nd queen faster with hatch first (anyone know about this?) but your first queen is coming out faster with 15p/16h.
It's general knowledge that 15p/16h no scout is just as eco and slightly safer than 15h/16p with scout.
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
you cannot hatch first an expect to survive 10 pool baneling without life level micro
there is no safe and economical opening in all of starcraft you can either open safe and have less economy or open economy and be less safe
i like to do a 15h 16p 17g with a 9 dronescout (obv adjust vs early pools). its safe vs everything and very economically. just send a drone after you build your 9 overlord. that will give you enough time to scout main AND block his natural vs hatch first of your opponent meaning you will have your hatch sooner than him and get the extra economy you need to be even (since you lose some eco with dronescouting).
after blocking hatch just scout his main once again to scout his gas timings if you want to be extra safe or want to play extra greedy.
even if you get the faster hatch you have one less drone in the most critical time so hes still ahead economically.... especially if there smart enough to just drop the pool as soon as he sees the drone hanging at his nat, 15 pool 16 hatch is jsut barely less econimcal then 15 hatch and since he has one more drone all game he has the ecenomic lead
says who? you have any numbers for that? faster hatch = faster queens = better eco. i think you will be pretty even to a hatch first no dronescout that gets blocked or 15 pool 16 hatch but you have all information like gas and pool timings.
Faster hatch doesn't = faster queens, faster pool = faster queen. You might get your 2nd queen faster with hatch first (anyone know about this?) but your first queen is coming out faster with 15p/16h.
It's general knowledge that 15p/16h no scout is just as eco and slightly safer than 15h/16p with scout.
if you 14 pool your 2nd queen comes out about the same time there double queen comes out so you get one inject then your 2nd and 3rd inject comes out slightly slower then there 1st and 2nd
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
you cannot hatch first an expect to survive 10 pool baneling without life level micro
there is no safe and economical opening in all of starcraft you can either open safe and have less economy or open economy and be less safe
i like to do a 15h 16p 17g with a 9 dronescout (obv adjust vs early pools). its safe vs everything and very economically. just send a drone after you build your 9 overlord. that will give you enough time to scout main AND block his natural vs hatch first of your opponent meaning you will have your hatch sooner than him and get the extra economy you need to be even (since you lose some eco with dronescouting).
after blocking hatch just scout his main once again to scout his gas timings if you want to be extra safe or want to play extra greedy.
even if you get the faster hatch you have one less drone in the most critical time so hes still ahead economically.... especially if there smart enough to just drop the pool as soon as he sees the drone hanging at his nat, 15 pool 16 hatch is jsut barely less econimcal then 15 hatch and since he has one more drone all game he has the ecenomic lead
says who? you have any numbers for that? faster hatch = faster queens = better eco. i think you will be pretty even to a hatch first no dronescout that gets blocked or 15 pool 16 hatch but you have all information like gas and pool timings.
Faster hatch doesn't = faster queens, faster pool = faster queen. You might get your 2nd queen faster with hatch first (anyone know about this?) but your first queen is coming out faster with 15p/16h.
It's general knowledge that 15p/16h no scout is just as eco and slightly safer than 15h/16p with scout.
I disagree with you. A 15 hatch 16 pool is better economically then 15P. I definitely disagree heavily with you thinking it's just as eco and slightly safer. It is safer but not as economical as 15 hatch.
If this was true that 15P = same economy as 15H then nobody would 15 hatch ever. Now is it enough to mean 15 hatch player wins? No of course not, not even close but he does get a slight economic lead early.
How do you play a ZvZ where you go Mutas and the other person goes roaches? they seem to be able to stall by attacking and that gives them enough time to build enough spores/hydras. Do you have to transition back to roaches or is there a way to win with just muta? How many mutas is enough to fight of a hydra pack cost effectively?
You utilize Ling/Bane mobility If they are turtle with spore hydra, u should have faster 3rd -> better economy. Pressure with muta/ling/bane while teching
On January 30 2013 18:27 Nyctophobia wrote: Is there a reliable way to repel a hellion-drop rush off of a standard opening? They melt all my units so fast and it just hits so quickly
You have to have roaches.hell bats are way way to good vs lings to make those and survive. If you make a roach warren and get those you should be able to survive any fast hellbat drop.
Seriously though I think hellbat drops are to strong, I don't think medivacs should be able to hold hellions in hellbat form imo.
On January 30 2013 17:52 JackRipper wrote: How do you play a ZvZ where you go Mutas and the other person goes roaches? they seem to be able to stall by attacking and that gives them enough time to build enough spores/hydras. Do you have to transition back to roaches or is there a way to win with just muta? How many mutas is enough to fight of a hydra pack cost effectively?
Due to the fungal change and the new regeneration from mutas you dont have to transition out of muta. I like to stick to muta ling bane, its very important that you get baneling speed if your opponent goes ground based. Creep spread and attacking from all possible angles while not clumping any of your ling bling muta squads is very important to do that. If your opponent goes for hydras before infestors you most likely can kill him straight away. However, most people tend to get infestors first (which is correct). To play against this style, you should get dropupgrades right after your baneling speed. Drops are a really strong followup to mutaplay, because your opponent wont have any overlord vision on the map, and you dont risk your muta flock while harassing, banes can do that job far more efficient. Furthermore, overlords save your banelings from fungals/roach snipes, so you will get connections with them. I try to split up my mutas in 3 squads when i try to kill my opponents army, same goes for bane bombs, its best to attack from all angles possible. Furthermore you also want to go for banedrops in the minerallines and lingrunbys to every expo of your opponent while the engagement happens. Your opponent wont ever be able to fend of everything, its way too micro intensive, even vs high apm gm players. That being said, you should also consider that this style requires a absurdly high amount of apm from yourself. But its very funny You also should never overcommit to muta, 11-14 in the early midgame and ~20 in the later stages of the game are more than enough. If youre capable of microing more than 3 mutaflocks at the same time, you could theoretically go for more. Ground attack upgrades are also very important, it makes the runbys, counterattacks and banebombs much more stronger it works same as oldschool zvt when you wanna engage, kill the hydras with the banes, snipe the infestors with ling muta and let the mutas kill the rest once there isnt any more anti air.
Thats just my personal preference tho, muta into roach infestor still works pretty well too.
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
If you dont wanna 9 scout into hatch first you can also go for 15p/16h. You can snipe the banes with your queen and kill the lings with lings/drones.
I just hope more terrans use marine, marauder, hellbat + 1/2 medivacs. So this can be adjusted asap. Its a free win for terrans right now. But i should say its my fault for losing.
On January 30 2013 18:27 Nyctophobia wrote: Is there a reliable way to repel a hellion-drop rush off of a standard opening? They melt all my units so fast and it just hits so quickly
You have to have roaches.hell bats are way way to good vs lings to make those and survive. If you make a roach warren and get those you should be able to survive any fast hellbat drop.
Seriously though I think hellbat drops are to strong, I don't think medivacs should be able to hold hellions in hellbat form imo.
Kind of what I was thinking. I'm not sure of the time the drop can hit at, but I'm skeptical that it's always possible to react to it fast enough after scouting it by starting a warren. I almost feel like I'd need to tech into roaches beforehand just in case that's what they're doing. But of course it could be that I suck.
On January 30 2013 18:27 Nyctophobia wrote: Is there a reliable way to repel a hellion-drop rush off of a standard opening? They melt all my units so fast and it just hits so quickly
You have to have roaches.hell bats are way way to good vs lings to make those and survive. If you make a roach warren and get those you should be able to survive any fast hellbat drop.
Seriously though I think hellbat drops are to strong, I don't think medivacs should be able to hold hellions in hellbat form imo.
Kind of what I was thinking. I'm not sure of the time the drop can hit at, but I'm skeptical that it's always possible to react to it fast enough after scouting it by starting a warren. I almost feel like I'd need to tech into roaches beforehand just in case that's what they're doing. But of course it could be that I suck.
imo in ZvT dropping a warren is neccesary now every game
I've been struggling lately versus mutalisks ZvZ. Hydras don't seem to work, roach/infestor seems to be a gamble, and obviously things that don't hit air get stomped. All I've found so far is that more mutas beat mutas, or a pre-lair timing. This seems like an awfully boring way for ZvZ to be.
That said I'm only playing at a low-masters level so I might just be missing something. Please help!
On January 30 2013 18:27 Nyctophobia wrote: Is there a reliable way to repel a hellion-drop rush off of a standard opening? They melt all my units so fast and it just hits so quickly
You have to have roaches.hell bats are way way to good vs lings to make those and survive. If you make a roach warren and get those you should be able to survive any fast hellbat drop.
Seriously though I think hellbat drops are to strong, I don't think medivacs should be able to hold hellions in hellbat form imo.
Kind of what I was thinking. I'm not sure of the time the drop can hit at, but I'm skeptical that it's always possible to react to it fast enough after scouting it by starting a warren. I almost feel like I'd need to tech into roaches beforehand just in case that's what they're doing. But of course it could be that I suck.
imo in ZvT dropping a warren is neccesary now every game
Agreed. I think it's a must. If you don't you are goign to take immense damage or straight out die to those fast 1 medivac battle hellion drops or bio + battle hellion timing attacks.
On January 31 2013 09:35 foutre wrote: I've been struggling lately versus mutalisks ZvZ. Hydras don't seem to work, roach/infestor seems to be a gamble, and obviously things that don't hit air get stomped. All I've found so far is that more mutas beat mutas, or a pre-lair timing. This seems like an awfully boring way for ZvZ to be.
That said I'm only playing at a low-masters level so I might just be missing something. Please help!
your not its muta wars instead of infester wars
ZvZ will always be about one unit, at first it was pure roach and tahts all that mattered then it was about infesters and now its about mutas
In this game he went mass tempest so I counter with mass corruptor... which forced me to lose all my bases to ground while I waited for my greater spire then he killed my broodlords with archon-stalker
no clue how to beat protoss anymore. I literally have a 30% win rate in the match-up
On January 31 2013 13:38 Ancamdrew wrote: In this game he went mass tempest so I counter with mass corruptor... which forced me to lose all my bases to ground while I waited for my greater spire then he killed my broodlords with archon-stalker
no clue how to beat protoss anymore. I literally have a 30% win rate in the match-up
On January 31 2013 13:38 Ancamdrew wrote: In this game he went mass tempest so I counter with mass corruptor... which forced me to lose all my bases to ground while I waited for my greater spire then he killed my broodlords with archon-stalker
no clue how to beat protoss anymore. I literally have a 30% win rate in the match-up
dont counter mass tempest with corrupter the tempest is pretty much only good against air go hydra
id be more specific but cant find the folder i need to put the replay in to view it
I actually think going corruptor vs tempest is a fine decision. But you shouldn't be going only corruptor, should have other tech like ultras or something on the ground to.
On January 31 2013 13:38 Ancamdrew wrote: In this game he went mass tempest so I counter with mass corruptor... which forced me to lose all my bases to ground while I waited for my greater spire then he killed my broodlords with archon-stalker
no clue how to beat protoss anymore. I literally have a 30% win rate in the match-up
dont counter mass tempest with corrupter the tempest is pretty much only good against air go hydra
id be more specific but cant find the folder i need to put the replay in to view it
I actually think going corruptor vs tempest is a fine decision. But you shouldn't be going only corruptor, should have other tech like ultras or something on the ground to.
I was trying to get a large amount of lings with all my minerals but zealots crush them. Was going hydras but in my oppinion they dont stand a chance late game against air-toss
On January 31 2013 13:38 Ancamdrew wrote: In this game he went mass tempest so I counter with mass corruptor... which forced me to lose all my bases to ground while I waited for my greater spire then he killed my broodlords with archon-stalker
no clue how to beat protoss anymore. I literally have a 30% win rate in the match-up
dont counter mass tempest with corrupter the tempest is pretty much only good against air go hydra
id be more specific but cant find the folder i need to put the replay in to view it
I actually think going corruptor vs tempest is a fine decision. But you shouldn't be going only corruptor, should have other tech like ultras or something on the ground to.
I was trying to get a large amount of lings with all my minerals but zealots crush them. Was going hydras but in my oppinion they dont stand a chance late game against air-toss
its HTs that hydras cant handle, if it doesnt AoE then Hydras eat them
Hey guys, I am currently clueless regarding ZvP. If the Protoss does a 2-base-allin then i most likely will win the game otherwise i just lose. I dont know what to do in lategame zvp. my usual plan is like:
3 hatch before gas into roach ling --> if he takes a third i will take my fourth and adding a hydra den. with hydras arriving i will pressure him a bit and tech to hive to get vipers. my final composition is ultra hydra viper (2-3 infestors). But i just lose the game (wasnt different in WOL, dia zerg with like 80-85% win ratio in ZvZ, 70% in ZvT and 50% ZvP... :/).
I havent tried spire for corruptors yet. maybe i should give roach hydra viper corrupter a try? What do you think?
On January 30 2013 18:27 Nyctophobia wrote: Is there a reliable way to repel a hellion-drop rush off of a standard opening? They melt all my units so fast and it just hits so quickly
You have to have roaches.hell bats are way way to good vs lings to make those and survive. If you make a roach warren and get those you should be able to survive any fast hellbat drop.
Seriously though I think hellbat drops are to strong, I don't think medivacs should be able to hold hellions in hellbat form imo.
Kind of what I was thinking. I'm not sure of the time the drop can hit at, but I'm skeptical that it's always possible to react to it fast enough after scouting it by starting a warren. I almost feel like I'd need to tech into roaches beforehand just in case that's what they're doing. But of course it could be that I suck.
imo in ZvT dropping a warren is neccesary now every game
Agreed. I think it's a must. If you don't you are goign to take immense damage or straight out die to those fast 1 medivac battle hellion drops or bio + battle hellion timing attacks.
Even though i know that most pro players feel like a RW is nessecary in every game, i dont really feel that way. Ive been facing that early push almost every game without taking at least too much damage from it. 4 Queens can deal with those relatively easily (well not easy, theyre strong as hell, but they can deal with it). Atm im trying to hold that push just with 3 Queens since im trying to rush out a big mutaflock as soon as possible (which can punish this push quite well). I also need a good handfull lings with my Queens against it, but honestly im considering getting a spine in each mineralline to use less lings, 3 queens + 1 spine each each base should be enough(maybe spores are better, dunno yet tbh). You just gotta watch to never clumb ur drones while splitting that he cant ninjadrop into them. I do agree that roaches deal with them better, but just getting 3 roaches out costs a ton of money and doesnt allow you to rush to mutalisks that quickly. Ive also started to get just 2 tumors in earlygame zvt, one in my main and one in my natural and save the other energy for transfuse, which is nessecary if you dont wanna lose all your queens.
On January 31 2013 17:13 aidosae wrote: Hey guys, I am currently clueless regarding ZvP. If the Protoss does a 2-base-allin then i most likely will win the game otherwise i just lose. I dont know what to do in lategame zvp. my usual plan is like:
3 hatch before gas into roach ling --> if he takes a third i will take my fourth and adding a hydra den. with hydras arriving i will pressure him a bit and tech to hive to get vipers. my final composition is ultra hydra viper (2-3 infestors). But i just lose the game (wasnt different in WOL, dia zerg with like 80-85% win ratio in ZvZ, 70% in ZvT and 50% ZvP... :/).
I havent tried spire for corruptors yet. maybe i should give roach hydra viper corrupter a try? What do you think?
Ret does a really strong 2-2 timing with roach hydra. For doing that you gotta get a early read on your opponent tho because its quite greedy. He goes for standard dbl gas at 44 supply, first 100 ling speed, next 250 in 1-1 missles/carapace before (!) lair while droning heavily. Fourth is taken by around 9.00 min. When his fourth pops he saturates it immediately. Doing that allows you to hit a maxed 2-2 roach hydra (with both hydraupgrades and roach speed) which hits protoss between 12.30-13.00 (just right before 3 base production really starts kicking in for protoss).
Since the protoss army is solid but quite small at that stage, you wanna use 2 army hotkeys to attack the natural and the third to force a decision from protoss (1 colossi cant defend 2 locations at once ). If you dont kill or heavily cripple the protoss you will get some decent trades for sure. While doing that you wanna tech to vipers or spire and get your fifth
i just started doing ladder on beta and im wondering what the deal with these widowmines are. they seem to be straight amazing vs zerg especially with drop ships or all ins. is the answer to terran atm early roach aggression?
On January 31 2013 20:23 sunglasseson wrote: i just started doing ladder on beta and im wondering what the deal with these widowmines are. they seem to be straight amazing vs zerg especially with drop ships or all ins. is the answer to terran atm early roach aggression?
I dont think so, zerg is forced more than ever to defend in the earlygame. By the time slow roaches walk across the map terran can make like 4 widow mines to shred everything you throw at them
On January 30 2013 17:52 JackRipper wrote: How do you play a ZvZ where you go Mutas and the other person goes roaches? they seem to be able to stall by attacking and that gives them enough time to build enough spores/hydras. Do you have to transition back to roaches or is there a way to win with just muta? How many mutas is enough to fight of a hydra pack cost effectively?
Due to the fungal change and the new regeneration from mutas you dont have to transition out of muta. I like to stick to muta ling bane, its very important that you get baneling speed if your opponent goes ground based. Creep spread and attacking from all possible angles while not clumping any of your ling bling muta squads is very important to do that. If your opponent goes for hydras before infestors you most likely can kill him straight away. However, most people tend to get infestors first (which is correct). To play against this style, you should get dropupgrades right after your baneling speed. Drops are a really strong followup to mutaplay, because your opponent wont have any overlord vision on the map, and you dont risk your muta flock while harassing, banes can do that job far more efficient. Furthermore, overlords save your banelings from fungals/roach snipes, so you will get connections with them. I try to split up my mutas in 3 squads when i try to kill my opponents army, same goes for bane bombs, its best to attack from all angles possible. Furthermore you also want to go for banedrops in the minerallines and lingrunbys to every expo of your opponent while the engagement happens. Your opponent wont ever be able to fend of everything, its way too micro intensive, even vs high apm gm players. That being said, you should also consider that this style requires a absurdly high amount of apm from yourself. But its very funny You also should never overcommit to muta, 11-14 in the early midgame and ~20 in the later stages of the game are more than enough. If youre capable of microing more than 3 mutaflocks at the same time, you could theoretically go for more. Ground attack upgrades are also very important, it makes the runbys, counterattacks and banebombs much more stronger it works same as oldschool zvt when you wanna engage, kill the hydras with the banes, snipe the infestors with ling muta and let the mutas kill the rest once there isnt any more anti air.
Thats just my personal preference tho, muta into roach infestor still works pretty well too.
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
If you dont wanna 9 scout into hatch first you can also go for 15p/16h. You can snipe the banes with your queen and kill the lings with lings/drones.
Your muta bane drop strat looks really interesting, do you have any replays of this vs pro players? What about if he goes ~170 food attack with ~8-10 infestors and a bunch of hydras and roaches outta 3 bases? Does it really hold it? I feel like fungal is still pretty powerful option, and dodging it in such a huge battle (Overlord drops, microing lings, 3 flocks of mutas) can be damn hard to execute. Also fungaling overlords seems powerful too? Since it can divide army at allow to deal with it part by part. I'm theorycrafting here, would love some reps to prove me wrong
What's current metagame for ZvT? I see a lot of 2 base muta from Ret and i hear roaches are must (i assume it's with 3 base build?), can't really decide what to use. I've had quite a lot of success with roach ling bane on 3 bases into drops.
On January 30 2013 17:52 JackRipper wrote: How do you play a ZvZ where you go Mutas and the other person goes roaches? they seem to be able to stall by attacking and that gives them enough time to build enough spores/hydras. Do you have to transition back to roaches or is there a way to win with just muta? How many mutas is enough to fight of a hydra pack cost effectively?
Due to the fungal change and the new regeneration from mutas you dont have to transition out of muta. I like to stick to muta ling bane, its very important that you get baneling speed if your opponent goes ground based. Creep spread and attacking from all possible angles while not clumping any of your ling bling muta squads is very important to do that. If your opponent goes for hydras before infestors you most likely can kill him straight away. However, most people tend to get infestors first (which is correct). To play against this style, you should get dropupgrades right after your baneling speed. Drops are a really strong followup to mutaplay, because your opponent wont have any overlord vision on the map, and you dont risk your muta flock while harassing, banes can do that job far more efficient. Furthermore, overlords save your banelings from fungals/roach snipes, so you will get connections with them. I try to split up my mutas in 3 squads when i try to kill my opponents army, same goes for bane bombs, its best to attack from all angles possible. Furthermore you also want to go for banedrops in the minerallines and lingrunbys to every expo of your opponent while the engagement happens. Your opponent wont ever be able to fend of everything, its way too micro intensive, even vs high apm gm players. That being said, you should also consider that this style requires a absurdly high amount of apm from yourself. But its very funny You also should never overcommit to muta, 11-14 in the early midgame and ~20 in the later stages of the game are more than enough. If youre capable of microing more than 3 mutaflocks at the same time, you could theoretically go for more. Ground attack upgrades are also very important, it makes the runbys, counterattacks and banebombs much more stronger it works same as oldschool zvt when you wanna engage, kill the hydras with the banes, snipe the infestors with ling muta and let the mutas kill the rest once there isnt any more anti air.
Thats just my personal preference tho, muta into roach infestor still works pretty well too.
On January 30 2013 01:50 Alpina wrote: What are some good safe and decent economy ZvZ openings?
I usually go to 15H 15P, but it dies horribly for 10 pool baneling bust which comes even before any of my units spawn. Now i don't want to do 14/14 cause it's so bad economically vs. 15/15. What about 14H 14P or something like that?
If you dont wanna 9 scout into hatch first you can also go for 15p/16h. You can snipe the banes with your queen and kill the lings with lings/drones.
Your muta bane drop strat looks really interesting, do you have any replays of this vs pro players? What about if he goes ~170 food attack with ~8-10 infestors and a bunch of hydras and roaches outta 3 bases? Does it really hold it? I feel like fungal is still pretty powerful option, and dodging it in such a huge battle (Overlord drops, microing lings, 3 flocks of mutas) can be damn hard to execute. Also fungaling overlords seems powerful too? Since it can divide army at allow to deal with it part by part. I'm theorycrafting here, would love some reps to prove me wrong
What's current metagame for ZvT? I see a lot of 2 base muta from Ret and i hear roaches are must (i assume it's with 3 base build?), can't really decide what to use. I've had quite a lot of success with roach ling bane on 3 bases into drops.
A teammate of me will cast some zvzs from that strategy really soon. I do have a lot of replays, unfortunately most of them dont work because theyre pre-patch :-( Originally i went for that strat without banedrops until i had a really intense game vs TLO (he went queen infestor hydra bane vs that) where i didnt go for drops, just for very good spread and multiple angles - still it was very very close despite perfect fungals, and still i survived the 170 food push without problems, but i died later because i overcommited doing the counterattack. I havent lost so far to any pushes when i wasnt behind all game long since i go for the dropupgrade as a followup. 170 Food attacks dont seem like a problem to me as long as you dont clumb any of your mutas/lings/overlords too much. Microing is not as hard as you think it is, or i should rather say its even more harder for the infestor going zerg to micro. Its very important to get a really good creapspread and pre-split your units to all possible angles. You also want to stream your groundforce (tons of lings with very few banes split in) instead of clumbed attacking from multiple angles, it negates any efficient use of fungal.
In zvt i like 2 base muta more, even tho i dont recommend using roaches when you wanna go for mutas as i mentioned in one of my posts above.
Sounds really good, what about ultra switch out of this? Should be really powerful, i assume once you survive big moveout you spine up and go hive and basically win the game?
What are the different compositions you want throughout the game for each matchup? For example, in ZvP in WoL it would be roach -> roach infestor -> infestor ling -> infestor broodlord or something along those lines. However, having just switched to zerg I don't know the HotS equivalents so help would be appreciated.
On February 03 2013 03:59 kollin wrote: What are the different compositions you want throughout the game for each matchup? For example, in ZvP in WoL it would be roach -> roach infestor -> infestor ling -> infestor broodlord or something along those lines. However, having just switched to zerg I don't know the HotS equivalents so help would be appreciated.
ZvZ is mainly Muta wars, if one player doesn't the muta player normally wins if he plays it correctly.
ZvP I think most zergs are going roach/hydra or mutalisks, personally I go either mutalisks or swarmhost heavy play with corruptor support and late game normally involves ling/bane/ultra/infestor.
ZvT some zergs go muta some go fast hive into ultralisks. Not sure what the strongest composition is as of yet.
On February 03 2013 04:12 kollin wrote: Thanks, what sort of openers should I be looking at? Have they changed much since WoL or are they mostly similar?
Yeah until lair tech kicks in everything is the same opener wise.
I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case
On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote: I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case
I did not know that but I am not sure. I thought he normally went armor first, maybe he thought I wasn't going to go mutalisks so he got +1 attack and then i did go mutas which there is no point in canceling it as he would already be behind in upgrades then.
Uhm, this might be a very stupid question, but how do I approach ZvP? I feel that in a macro game I get absolutely smashed by voidray colossi, especially since stargate and mshipcore are so effective at holding back attempts at denying an early third, which means they get that economy so quickly.
I have plenty of 2base allins that are effective, but I always prefer the long macro games. Is there a composition to deal with voidray colossi, or am I stuck doing extremely agressive play in the early-mid game? I've tried opening spire, but stargate openers are so common that it almost always gets shut down by pheonix :/
On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote: I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case
I did not know that but I am not sure. I thought he normally went armor first, maybe he thought I wasn't going to go mutalisks so he got +1 attack and then i did go mutas which there is no point in canceling it as he would already be behind in upgrades then.
The first attack upgrade gives each glaive bounce 1 extra damage, so it goes like this: 9+3+1 ----> 10+4+2. So it basically negates plus one armor and is slightly cheaper, which is why he got it I imagine. The next attack upgrade does not improve the bounce damage so armor is preferable after that. It is stupid and unintuitive, but it is what it is. Test it for yourself.
On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote: I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case
I did not know that but I am not sure. I thought he normally went armor first, maybe he thought I wasn't going to go mutalisks so he got +1 attack and then i did go mutas which there is no point in canceling it as he would already be behind in upgrades then.
The first attack upgrade gives each glaive bounce 1 extra damage, so it goes like this: 9+3+1 ----> 10+4+2. So it basically negates plus one armor and is slightly cheaper, which is why he got it I imagine. The next attack upgrade does not improve the bounce damage so armor is preferable after that. It is stupid and unintuitive, but it is what it is. Test it for yourself.
Holy shit is this really true? I was sure + 1 attack only influenced the first target and not the bounce damage, isn't that why everyone gets armor first?
On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote: I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case
I did not know that but I am not sure. I thought he normally went armor first, maybe he thought I wasn't going to go mutalisks so he got +1 attack and then i did go mutas which there is no point in canceling it as he would already be behind in upgrades then.
The first attack upgrade gives each glaive bounce 1 extra damage, so it goes like this: 9+3+1 ----> 10+4+2. So it basically negates plus one armor and is slightly cheaper, which is why he got it I imagine. The next attack upgrade does not improve the bounce damage so armor is preferable after that. It is stupid and unintuitive, but it is what it is. Test it for yourself.
Holy shit is this really true? I was sure + 1 attack only influenced the first target and not the bounce damage, isn't that why everyone gets armor first?
I don't think it's common knowledge. As said, it is pretty unintuitive. Don't know if it's been changed, it wasn't a few weeks ago.
On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote: I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case
I did not know that but I am not sure. I thought he normally went armor first, maybe he thought I wasn't going to go mutalisks so he got +1 attack and then i did go mutas which there is no point in canceling it as he would already be behind in upgrades then.
The first attack upgrade gives each glaive bounce 1 extra damage, so it goes like this: 9+3+1 ----> 10+4+2. So it basically negates plus one armor and is slightly cheaper, which is why he got it I imagine. The next attack upgrade does not improve the bounce damage so armor is preferable after that. It is stupid and unintuitive, but it is what it is. Test it for yourself.
Holy shit is this really true? I was sure + 1 attack only influenced the first target and not the bounce damage, isn't that why everyone gets armor first?
I don't think it's common knowledge. As said, it is pretty unintuitive. Don't know if it's been changed, it wasn't a few weeks ago.
Hm i just tested it in the Hots unit tester, and at least numberwise you are correct. Bounce damage is affected by the +1 attack upgrade. Also in 3vs3 muta fights it was an even fight between +1 carapace and +1 attack, 1 muta would survive with 1-4hp on either side, that's due to the random delay factor in the attack animations.
However in larger fights the muta flock with the carapace upgrade always won. I can't explain it.
On February 03 2013 07:53 kollin wrote: I was just watching Idra's stream and he played a ZvZ against you I believe it was Blade. Both of you went for mutas, but Idra got attack for them over armor? Now correct me if I'm wrong but I'd always thought armor was favored over attack for muta wars. What's the reasoning behind Idra getting attack if this is the case
Just watched the replay me and idra played and he got +1 carapace first.
Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
So is there any way to beat muta without going muta?
I feel like infestors don't quite cut it as much anymore, and Hydras are pretty lulz worthy against them due to speed. I'd love to go Roach Hydra Swarm host, but it's just insanely weak if the other player goes muta
On February 04 2013 20:08 OptimusYale wrote: So is there any way to beat muta without going muta?
I feel like infestors don't quite cut it as much anymore, and Hydras are pretty lulz worthy against them due to speed. I'd love to go Roach Hydra Swarm host, but it's just insanely weak if the other player goes muta
Out of curiosity when you don't go mutas what are they doing to kill you? I haven't really faced non mutas for a long time so I almost don't know except if they go hydra muta/ling/bane if they go infestors muta/ling/bane aggression?
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
how amny hellbats? how many medivacs? what were the upgrades? how many roachs? how many spineS? how many spores? how much drop micro did he do? was he moving between 2 bases or three? did he have other units helping?
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
how amny hellbats? how many medivacs? what were the upgrades? how many roachs? how many spineS? how many spores? how much drop micro did he do? was he moving between 2 bases or three? did he have other units helping?
Well i am just saying, that i scout terran completely, get 1 spine per base + 3 roaches and ofc queen. He comes with 4 hellbats and still kills tons of drones. I mean ain't that supposed to be super hard counter already?
And it's not just this game, every time i am preparing for hellbat drop i still lose drones, because if you won't move them then they obviously will kill drones, and if you move them then speed medivac just catches all that pack of drones and drops on top of them.
What about if i don't have spine + roaches per base? I mean it's quite normal to not to have spines and roaches. That way is pretty much impossible to kill those hellbats at all.
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
how amny hellbats? how many medivacs? what were the upgrades? how many roachs? how many spineS? how many spores? how much drop micro did he do? was he moving between 2 bases or three? did he have other units helping?
Well i am just saying, that i scout terran completely, get 1 spine per base + 3 roaches and ofc queen. He comes with 4 hellbats and still kills tons of drones. I mean ain't that supposed to be super hard counter already?
And it's not just this game, every time i am preparing for hellbat drop i still lose drones, because if you won't move them then they obviously will kill drones, and if you move them then speed medivac just catches all that pack of drones and drops on top of them.
What about if i don't have spine + roaches per base? I mean it's quite normal to not to have spines and roaches. That way is pretty much impossible to kill those hellbats at all.
have you considered that its now not normal to not have raochs?
sounds like you jsut didnt have enough, only one spine and only 3 roachs he made a bigger investment with the 4 hellbats and the medivac so obviously he came out ahead
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
how amny hellbats? how many medivacs? what were the upgrades? how many roachs? how many spineS? how many spores? how much drop micro did he do? was he moving between 2 bases or three? did he have other units helping?
Well i am just saying, that i scout terran completely, get 1 spine per base + 3 roaches and ofc queen. He comes with 4 hellbats and still kills tons of drones. I mean ain't that supposed to be super hard counter already?
And it's not just this game, every time i am preparing for hellbat drop i still lose drones, because if you won't move them then they obviously will kill drones, and if you move them then speed medivac just catches all that pack of drones and drops on top of them.
What about if i don't have spine + roaches per base? I mean it's quite normal to not to have spines and roaches. That way is pretty much impossible to kill those hellbats at all.
have you considered that its now not normal to not have raochs?
sounds like you jsut didnt have enough, only one spine and only 3 roachs he made a bigger investment with the 4 hellbats and the medivac so obviously he came out ahead
Are you serious?
It's a simple 4 hellion drop, which is NOT even supposed to be scouted if terran does not want that. I had spine + roaches which is perfect case scenario aka hard counter. Your ignorance or terran bias are ridiculous
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
how amny hellbats? how many medivacs? what were the upgrades? how many roachs? how many spineS? how many spores? how much drop micro did he do? was he moving between 2 bases or three? did he have other units helping?
Well i am just saying, that i scout terran completely, get 1 spine per base + 3 roaches and ofc queen. He comes with 4 hellbats and still kills tons of drones. I mean ain't that supposed to be super hard counter already?
And it's not just this game, every time i am preparing for hellbat drop i still lose drones, because if you won't move them then they obviously will kill drones, and if you move them then speed medivac just catches all that pack of drones and drops on top of them.
What about if i don't have spine + roaches per base? I mean it's quite normal to not to have spines and roaches. That way is pretty much impossible to kill those hellbats at all.
have you considered that its now not normal to not have raochs?
sounds like you jsut didnt have enough, only one spine and only 3 roachs he made a bigger investment with the 4 hellbats and the medivac so obviously he came out ahead
Are you serious?
It's a simple 4 hellion drop, which is NOT even supposed to be scouted if terran does not want that. I had spine + roaches which is perfect case scenario aka hard counter. Your ignorance or terran bias are ridiculous
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
how amny hellbats? how many medivacs? what were the upgrades? how many roachs? how many spineS? how many spores? how much drop micro did he do? was he moving between 2 bases or three? did he have other units helping?
Well i am just saying, that i scout terran completely, get 1 spine per base + 3 roaches and ofc queen. He comes with 4 hellbats and still kills tons of drones. I mean ain't that supposed to be super hard counter already?
And it's not just this game, every time i am preparing for hellbat drop i still lose drones, because if you won't move them then they obviously will kill drones, and if you move them then speed medivac just catches all that pack of drones and drops on top of them.
What about if i don't have spine + roaches per base? I mean it's quite normal to not to have spines and roaches. That way is pretty much impossible to kill those hellbats at all.
have you considered that its now not normal to not have raochs?
sounds like you jsut didnt have enough, only one spine and only 3 roachs he made a bigger investment with the 4 hellbats and the medivac so obviously he came out ahead
Are you serious?
It's a simple 4 hellion drop, which is NOT even supposed to be scouted if terran does not want that. I had spine + roaches which is perfect case scenario aka hard counter. Your ignorance or terran bias are ridiculous
Not really sure how to tackle this question so I'll just pose it generally then break it down if needed. To anyone who watched CatZ, or has experimented with the build following, what are the benefits/reasonings behind going 4 hatch as opposed to the normal 3?
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
how amny hellbats? how many medivacs? what were the upgrades? how many roachs? how many spineS? how many spores? how much drop micro did he do? was he moving between 2 bases or three? did he have other units helping?
Well i am just saying, that i scout terran completely, get 1 spine per base + 3 roaches and ofc queen. He comes with 4 hellbats and still kills tons of drones. I mean ain't that supposed to be super hard counter already?
And it's not just this game, every time i am preparing for hellbat drop i still lose drones, because if you won't move them then they obviously will kill drones, and if you move them then speed medivac just catches all that pack of drones and drops on top of them.
What about if i don't have spine + roaches per base? I mean it's quite normal to not to have spines and roaches. That way is pretty much impossible to kill those hellbats at all.
have you considered that its now not normal to not have raochs?
sounds like you jsut didnt have enough, only one spine and only 3 roachs he made a bigger investment with the 4 hellbats and the medivac so obviously he came out ahead
Are you serious?
It's a simple 4 hellion drop, which is NOT even supposed to be scouted if terran does not want that. I had spine + roaches which is perfect case scenario aka hard counter. Your ignorance or terran bias are ridiculous
I hope someone with at least some knowledge could answer here.
i like to play gas into aggression vs gasless openings and the other way around.
so if i scout gas i go 4 queen opening and add roach warren. if he stays 1 base for a longer time i add 1 spore per mineral line + 2 spines natural and continue to build queens and drones and obv sac ovi to scout (which you did).
so once you confirmed he is doing helion drop you should build 1 spore per mineral line (this is very important!) and build a 5th + 6th queen + 4 roaches or so. once he attacks pull drones + focus fire medivac. either he runs away instantly or loses medivac. medivac dead = you shouldnt lose a single drone.
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
how amny hellbats? how many medivacs? what were the upgrades? how many roachs? how many spineS? how many spores? how much drop micro did he do? was he moving between 2 bases or three? did he have other units helping?
Well i am just saying, that i scout terran completely, get 1 spine per base + 3 roaches and ofc queen. He comes with 4 hellbats and still kills tons of drones. I mean ain't that supposed to be super hard counter already?
And it's not just this game, every time i am preparing for hellbat drop i still lose drones, because if you won't move them then they obviously will kill drones, and if you move them then speed medivac just catches all that pack of drones and drops on top of them.
What about if i don't have spine + roaches per base? I mean it's quite normal to not to have spines and roaches. That way is pretty much impossible to kill those hellbats at all.
have you considered that its now not normal to not have raochs?
sounds like you jsut didnt have enough, only one spine and only 3 roachs he made a bigger investment with the 4 hellbats and the medivac so obviously he came out ahead
Are you serious?
It's a simple 4 hellion drop, which is NOT even supposed to be scouted if terran does not want that. I had spine + roaches which is perfect case scenario aka hard counter. Your ignorance or terran bias are ridiculous
I hope someone with at least some knowledge could answer here.
i like to play gas into aggression vs gasless openings and the other way around.
so if i scout gas i go 4 queen opening and add roach warren. if he stays 1 base for a longer time i add 1 spore per mineral line + 2 spines natural and continue to build queens and drones and obv sac ovi to scout (which you did).
so once you confirmed he is doing helion drop you should build 1 spore per mineral line (this is very important!) and build a 5th + 6th queen + 4 roaches or so. once he attacks pull drones + focus fire medivac. either he runs away instantly or loses medivac. medivac dead = you shouldnt lose a single drone.
Thanks, so it appears it's more important to kill medivac than hellbats themselves, and build more queens ^^ ok!
On February 05 2013 01:50 Mortal wrote: Not really sure how to tackle this question so I'll just pose it generally then break it down if needed. To anyone who watched CatZ, or has experimented with the build following, what are the benefits/reasonings behind going 4 hatch as opposed to the normal 3?
Huge early mid-game unit swell, you can check out Day9's video on the subject in the archives.
On February 05 2013 01:50 Mortal wrote: Not really sure how to tackle this question so I'll just pose it generally then break it down if needed. To anyone who watched CatZ, or has experimented with the build following, what are the benefits/reasonings behind going 4 hatch as opposed to the normal 3?
Huge early mid-game unit swell, you can check out Day9's video on the subject in the archives.
Any chance for more specifics? Both on how that unit swell is any more impressive than and earlier queen for inject and more creep, and on which video specifically? His archive is a fucking nightmare.
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
how amny hellbats? how many medivacs? what were the upgrades? how many roachs? how many spineS? how many spores? how much drop micro did he do? was he moving between 2 bases or three? did he have other units helping?
Well i am just saying, that i scout terran completely, get 1 spine per base + 3 roaches and ofc queen. He comes with 4 hellbats and still kills tons of drones. I mean ain't that supposed to be super hard counter already?
And it's not just this game, every time i am preparing for hellbat drop i still lose drones, because if you won't move them then they obviously will kill drones, and if you move them then speed medivac just catches all that pack of drones and drops on top of them.
What about if i don't have spine + roaches per base? I mean it's quite normal to not to have spines and roaches. That way is pretty much impossible to kill those hellbats at all.
have you considered that its now not normal to not have raochs?
sounds like you jsut didnt have enough, only one spine and only 3 roachs he made a bigger investment with the 4 hellbats and the medivac so obviously he came out ahead
Are you serious?
It's a simple 4 hellion drop, which is NOT even supposed to be scouted if terran does not want that. I had spine + roaches which is perfect case scenario aka hard counter. Your ignorance or terran bias are ridiculous
On February 04 2013 06:29 Alpina wrote: Is it only me or hellbats are ridiculously overpowered?
I play vs. gold league guy who is getting very late natural and I scout him building hellbats. Awesome, i know what he is doing! So get roaches and a spine in each natural. So each base is protected by roaches, queen, and a spine. I even move my drones but still he manages to kill half of my drones, because super speed medivacs just catches drones and drops hellbats on them.
I mean roaches melt vs. hellbats, they don't even stand a chance if they drop 4 hellbats, hellbats even killed a spine lol.. What i am supposed to do, 3 spines per base? :o
There is just not enough DPS at zerg arsenal to kill healed hellbats.
Sorry for rant but i find it ridiculous to have such a strong unit so early and just for 100 minerals.
hellbats arent early they actually come out almost as fast as a Thor
we cant really give you any advice unless you post the replay or a more detailed analysis of what happened
I think i explained quite clearly everything.
how amny hellbats? how many medivacs? what were the upgrades? how many roachs? how many spineS? how many spores? how much drop micro did he do? was he moving between 2 bases or three? did he have other units helping?
Well i am just saying, that i scout terran completely, get 1 spine per base + 3 roaches and ofc queen. He comes with 4 hellbats and still kills tons of drones. I mean ain't that supposed to be super hard counter already?
And it's not just this game, every time i am preparing for hellbat drop i still lose drones, because if you won't move them then they obviously will kill drones, and if you move them then speed medivac just catches all that pack of drones and drops on top of them.
What about if i don't have spine + roaches per base? I mean it's quite normal to not to have spines and roaches. That way is pretty much impossible to kill those hellbats at all.
have you considered that its now not normal to not have raochs?
sounds like you jsut didnt have enough, only one spine and only 3 roachs he made a bigger investment with the 4 hellbats and the medivac so obviously he came out ahead
Are you serious?
It's a simple 4 hellion drop, which is NOT even supposed to be scouted if terran does not want that. I had spine + roaches which is perfect case scenario aka hard counter. Your ignorance or terran bias are ridiculous
I hope someone with at least some knowledge could answer here.
Just saying, Hellbats require an armoy and medivacs are 100/100(and also require a starport which is pretty high in tech, too.). You're only counting 400 minerals for 4 hellbats but thats wrong. Terran invests a whole lot more into this than 400 minerals, so it's okay to build more units(either roaches or as already suggested just more queens)
hey guys, how do i engage a skyterran? my infestors and corruptors just get blown to pieces against hunter seeker and i lack the skill to split my stuff in more than 3 groups (which still means that half of my "air force" gets blown up).
guess the easiest way to "counter" it would be to not let T get that skydeathball, but how do i do that? it is so insanely easy to get 3 bases on the new maps. all T needs is a couple of siegetanks. and i seem to be unable to beat T once he IS on three bases. i can prevent that he takes a 4th but thats about it...
On February 05 2013 03:46 looken wrote: hey guys, how do i engage a skyterran? my infestors and corruptors just get blown to pieces against hunter seeker and i lack the skill to split my stuff in more than 3 groups (which still means that half of my "air force" gets blown up).
guess the easiest way to "counter" it would be to not let T get that skydeathball, but how do i do that? it is so insanely easy to get 3 bases on the new maps. all T needs is a couple of siegetanks. and i seem to be unable to beat T once he IS on three bases. i can prevent that he takes a 4th but thats about it...
if seekers still keel over and die after X distance, try forcing him to burn them as he moves out so his energy is low when the time to engage actually comes (similar to forcing ff's before you want to engage a protoss directly). i haven't had much practice with this, but it seems like a sound theory. or just kill him earlier than the time at which his air army reaches a critical mass (see day9's daily about why roach/hydra works against T).
On February 05 2013 03:46 looken wrote: hey guys, how do i engage a skyterran? my infestors and corruptors just get blown to pieces against hunter seeker and i lack the skill to split my stuff in more than 3 groups (which still means that half of my "air force" gets blown up).
guess the easiest way to "counter" it would be to not let T get that skydeathball, but how do i do that? it is so insanely easy to get 3 bases on the new maps. all T needs is a couple of siegetanks. and i seem to be unable to beat T once he IS on three bases. i can prevent that he takes a 4th but thats about it...
There is no way to kill it at the late game. Zerg has just too weak AA. Sure you can try with some upgraded corruptors, or hydras with infestors, but raven + BC combo won't let you do anything. So yes, you need to kill him in early/mid game.
Honestly, I feel that even ultralisks are better against sky-terran, than zerg's aa. At leasy it will kill some builds before it blows.
Maybe we can try with neural parasite, but good terran shouldn't let it happen. (Often even 1a terran).
On February 05 2013 03:46 looken wrote: hey guys, how do i engage a skyterran? my infestors and corruptors just get blown to pieces against hunter seeker and i lack the skill to split my stuff in more than 3 groups (which still means that half of my "air force" gets blown up).
guess the easiest way to "counter" it would be to not let T get that skydeathball, but how do i do that? it is so insanely easy to get 3 bases on the new maps. all T needs is a couple of siegetanks. and i seem to be unable to beat T once he IS on three bases. i can prevent that he takes a 4th but thats about it...
they shouldnt be able to get a dangerous sky-terran ball out on 3 bases jsut deny there 4th and win
ZvZ is mainly Muta wars, if one player doesn't the muta player normally wins if he plays it correctly.
ZvP I think most zergs are going roach/hydra or mutalisks, personally I go either mutalisks or swarmhost heavy play with corruptor support and late game normally involves ling/bane/ultra/infestor.
ZvT some zergs go muta some go fast hive into ultralisks. Not sure what the strongest composition is as of yet.
Unless a race goes for super hard counter I'd bet Muta is the safe bet 90% of the time. Muta feels strongest to me in the majority of situations when played like a terran would use reaper. Harass and don't worry about letting the mutas get some damage just don't let them die. With regen they'll be ready to do more harass quickly while building up critical mass. I really hope blizz doesn't nerf muta. They gotta leave us something that's fun to play with!
On February 05 2013 03:46 looken wrote: hey guys, how do i engage a skyterran? my infestors and corruptors just get blown to pieces against hunter seeker and i lack the skill to split my stuff in more than 3 groups (which still means that half of my "air force" gets blown up).
guess the easiest way to "counter" it would be to not let T get that skydeathball, but how do i do that? it is so insanely easy to get 3 bases on the new maps. all T needs is a couple of siegetanks. and i seem to be unable to beat T once he IS on three bases. i can prevent that he takes a 4th but thats about it...
they shouldnt be able to get a dangerous sky-terran ball out on 3 bases jsut deny there 4th and win
thx alot for the feedback so far guys. can you be a bit more specific with this? what should my unit composition look like, if T goes for siege tank with bio or siege tank with thor and just turtles? i tried to rush to ultras, but by the time they come out in sufficient numbers, T can have a huge defensive set up. so i figured i have to pressure him before that. but with what? roach hydra just seems to die against siege tanks (in defensive positions). if i wait for vipers its the same problem as with ultras, it takes quite a while to get them. muta doesnt do much better. if he scouts them and just builds a shit load of turrets they do nothing except keep him in his base, which is what he wants to do anyway. so again, what should be my unitcomposition to prevent T from getting that 4th and how do i push into his base even if i can prevent him from taking that 4th?
On February 05 2013 03:46 looken wrote: hey guys, how do i engage a skyterran? my infestors and corruptors just get blown to pieces against hunter seeker and i lack the skill to split my stuff in more than 3 groups (which still means that half of my "air force" gets blown up).
guess the easiest way to "counter" it would be to not let T get that skydeathball, but how do i do that? it is so insanely easy to get 3 bases on the new maps. all T needs is a couple of siegetanks. and i seem to be unable to beat T once he IS on three bases. i can prevent that he takes a 4th but thats about it...
they shouldnt be able to get a dangerous sky-terran ball out on 3 bases jsut deny there 4th and win
thx alot for the feedback so far guys. can you be a bit more specific with this? what should my unit composition look like, if T goes for siege tank with bio or siege tank with thor and just turtles? i tried to rush to ultras, but by the time they come out in sufficient numbers, T can have a huge defensive set up. so i figured i have to pressure him before that. but with what? roach hydra just seems to die against siege tanks (in defensive positions). if i wait for vipers its the same problem as with ultras, it takes quite a while to get them. muta doesnt do much better. if he scouts them and just builds a shit load of turrets they do nothing except keep him in his base, which is what he wants to do anyway. so again, what should be my unitcomposition to prevent T from getting that 4th and how do i push into his base even if i can prevent him from taking that 4th?
vipers actually come out surprisingly fast, if you compare it to infesters you could say they come out only a minute or so later and you overall need less vipers then infesters, you only need about 6-8 vipers and with consume you can have vipers ready to go around the same time as infesters would be at full energy
the best way ive found to engage mech is roach/hydra/viper, try to split as much as possible and engage from as many fronts your main goal is to blinding cloud the siege tanks to prevent them from doing damage your real goal is to trade as much as possible while keeping your vipers alive, while your being cost effecient with your roach/hydra you can take your pick of T3 choices and take more bases making it impossible for them to pull off an effective sky-toss
you cant REALLY push into his base at first, but he has to move out to take his 4th so as long as you trade enough eventually hell jsut bleed dry enough that you can go and kill him
note that with this strat he may take his 4th but as long as you keep trading effeciently with him he cant transition out of mech so easily
so i should not try to engage into his defensive set up but wait untill he moves out to take his 4th?
how do i do this on a map like akilon wastes or korhal city? i dont know, maybe im just to bad at this game, but it feels frustrating hard to deal with a defensive set up while all my opponent does is "hide" in his bases an mass up units =/
I'm curious about everyone's uses of Swarm Hosts. I've had very limited success with them so far (only against Terran bio/tank comps T_T). I've figured out how to properly micro them at least but I'm not yet capable of doing it well. I need to know some other situations where they are actually good.
Secondly, large clumps of Widow Mines in mech armies seem ridiculously hard to deal with, how do you do it?
On February 04 2013 20:08 OptimusYale wrote: So is there any way to beat muta without going muta?
I feel like infestors don't quite cut it as much anymore, and Hydras are pretty lulz worthy against them due to speed. I'd love to go Roach Hydra Swarm host, but it's just insanely weak if the other player goes muta
Out of curiosity when you don't go mutas what are they doing to kill you? I haven't really faced non mutas for a long time so I almost don't know except if they go hydra muta/ling/bane if they go infestors muta/ling/bane aggression?
I usually win the game if there are no muta's and I survive the early game. If I lose it's either to muta play, or sometimes I get rolled by mass roach. Depends when they attack really. Played a ZvZ where I got my spire down later and still won after a 30 minute muta war. TBH muta wars are dull as shit.
On February 05 2013 16:22 looken wrote: so i should not try to engage into his defensive set up but wait untill he moves out to take his 4th?
how do i do this on a map like akilon wastes or korhal city? i dont know, maybe im just to bad at this game, but it feels frustrating hard to deal with a defensive set up while all my opponent does is "hide" in his bases an mass up units =/
you cant engage him straight up if hes in a good defensive positon around most thirds, there are some thirds that are open enough that you can more easily engage into but one like daybreak is jsut throwing units away
the best way to know when you can engage and when you cant is practice really just look at where his army is, see how much open space there is and take it from there
ok guys, new problem, or same problem but different
how do i survive the midgame push from T and P? i am at a loss here. it seems that on most maps 3 bases is a given. T and P turtle to their, lets call it "midgame deathball" and just a-move into me. if i try to tech to ultras or broods, i die because my opponent hits to fast. if i try to defend with roaches i die because... well yeah, it's roaches. infestors dont do shit anymore, or i just use them wrong, w/e. hydras dont seem to be working either.
the "midgame deathball" i'm talking about from T is tank+bio, from protoss it's the usual colo+gateway. my strat is get 3 bases, saturate them, try to figure out, what my opponent is doing, build units and... well die.
On February 04 2013 20:08 OptimusYale wrote: So is there any way to beat muta without going muta?
I feel like infestors don't quite cut it as much anymore, and Hydras are pretty lulz worthy against them due to speed. I'd love to go Roach Hydra Swarm host, but it's just insanely weak if the other player goes muta
Out of curiosity when you don't go mutas what are they doing to kill you? I haven't really faced non mutas for a long time so I almost don't know except if they go hydra muta/ling/bane if they go infestors muta/ling/bane aggression?
I usually win the game if there are no muta's and I survive the early game. If I lose it's either to muta play, or sometimes I get rolled by mass roach. Depends when they attack really. Played a ZvZ where I got my spire down later and still won after a 30 minute muta war. TBH muta wars are dull as shit.
I love muta wars a lot more fun and entertaining then mass infestor play imo. But my question was if you don't go mutalisks or if your opponent does are you just killing him with ling/bane/muta. I haven't really done a non muta build or faced a non muta build in awhile and I end up winning with just muta/ling/bane if they don't go muta as they always go hydra first.
On February 06 2013 20:04 looken wrote: ok guys, new problem, or same problem but different
how do i survive the midgame push from T and P? i am at a loss here. it seems that on most maps 3 bases is a given. T and P turtle to their, lets call it "midgame deathball" and just a-move into me. if i try to tech to ultras or broods, i die because my opponent hits to fast. if i try to defend with roaches i die because... well yeah, it's roaches. infestors dont do shit anymore, or i just use them wrong, w/e. hydras dont seem to be working either.
the "midgame deathball" i'm talking about from T is tank+bio, from protoss it's the usual colo+gateway. my strat is get 3 bases, saturate them, try to figure out, what my opponent is doing, build units and... well die.
tank bio is the exact same. ling/bane infester
agaisnt colo gateway you can use a WoL strat or roach/hydra/viper and abduct the collo and blinding cloud the stalkers
On February 05 2013 01:50 Mortal wrote: Not really sure how to tackle this question so I'll just pose it generally then break it down if needed. To anyone who watched CatZ, or has experimented with the build following, what are the benefits/reasonings behind going 4 hatch as opposed to the normal 3?
The only benefit by that is that your opponent most likely doesnt know how to react accordingly to it, and for that he gets far behind. However, correct reactions to that build do not lead in zerg being ahead. Protoss needs to skip the forge, go gateway first into faster zealot stalker pressure and 7min third. I did some testing with a friend. It is not really worth to do that besides you wanna do some "fun strats" or you wanna hope that your opponent doesnt know exactly what he needs to do.
14 pool 16 hatch 4.15 third is still the best way to approach that matchup
On February 04 2013 20:08 OptimusYale wrote: So is there any way to beat muta without going muta?
I feel like infestors don't quite cut it as much anymore, and Hydras are pretty lulz worthy against them due to speed. I'd love to go Roach Hydra Swarm host, but it's just insanely weak if the other player goes muta
I really don't think so. Ive tried it multiple times to beat muta without going muta and i failed with it when i didnt get a lucky fungal off my opponents muta flock or something else like that. The only time were i got beaten quite significantly while going muta myself against a no-muta opponent was in a game vs TLO. Instead for going to quick hydras (which is very vurneable to banes), he decided to go for Queen, Infestor, Roach, Bane while boosting his upgrades out. Hydras just were added in the very end once he had a high amount of infestors as well as very good upgrades. Still, i think, if i would be nearly as good as him, i dont know if he still would had won. Muta seems the best option to play zvz atm. I doubt the spore buff will change a lot, because its still ultra hard to hit fungals when you get engaged on creep from multiple angles, and nowadays if you dont kill a mutaball completly, they just regenerate after a bit. By nerfing fungal even more i feel like muta will even do better in zvz as they do now. Its really not about harassment damage but more about getting complete map dominance as well as attacking with a very deadly fast force from all angles, so i think the spore buff wont change a lot because it wont change anything in that scenario. Furthermore, in engagements, its even more important to kill the banes before they rape your anti-air.
I did face a "muta-kill" build one time too. The guy got 2 gases up relatively early, and hittet with roach ling bane in addition to 6-7 queens for transfuses before mutas were out. I did scout it in time and added like 6 spines as well as tons of lings and banes, still i was not even close to hold it. However, i think, if i would had gone for roaches with spines as a reaction i could have hold. I think this build with give players a lot of easy wins on ladder at the current metagame.
Hey guys, I'm looking to switch back to Zerg for HotS. My one question is, do they still revolve around broodlord infestor corrupter? I really am tired of the turtlefest to get those units, and would like to go back to zerg if that strategy isn't dominant in HotS.
On February 08 2013 07:27 Kezzer wrote: Hey guys, I'm looking to switch back to Zerg for HotS. My one question is, do they still revolve around broodlord infestor corrupter? I really am tired of the turtlefest to get those units, and would like to go back to zerg if that strategy isn't dominant in HotS.
no bl/corr/infestor is garbage in zvp now. Ultras are a great choice zvp, zvt it's viable but terran can counter it with ravens and I like ultras better anyway.
So in short no turtling to bl/corr/infestor isn't a smart idea anymore in hots ^_^
okay guys i need serious help. i am completely lost right now in pretty much each MU.
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
-ZvZ: well this is more of a thing getting bored by muta vs muta and not a "problem" like in the other 2 MU. i tried different things but hydras and SH just suck while infestor got also nerfed but might work. will try something like ling queen infestor with lot of upgrades...otherwise its mutas again i guess?
any help will be much appreciated, especially in ZvT i cant even imagine how to beat that comp in theory since zerg just has no units to attack protected widow mines expect BLs which come so late i am dead already.
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
your analysis of the effectiveness of Hydras is wrong, Hydras are awesome, go raoch/hydra/vi[er and blind the tanks and MMM as much as possible while being careful to clear the mines as cost effectively as possible
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
you cant is unkillable
-ZvZ: well this is more of a thing getting bored by muta vs muta and not a "problem" like in the other 2 MU. i tried different things but hydras and SH just suck while infestor got also nerfed but might work. will try something like ling queen infestor with lot of upgrades...otherwise its mutas again i guess?
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
your analysis of the effectiveness of Hydras is wrong, Hydras are awesome, go raoch/hydra/vi[er and blind the tanks and MMM as much as possible while being careful to clear the mines as cost effectively as possible
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
-ZvZ: well this is more of a thing getting bored by muta vs muta and not a "problem" like in the other 2 MU. i tried different things but hydras and SH just suck while infestor got also nerfed but might work. will try something like ling queen infestor with lot of upgrades...otherwise its mutas again i guess?
mutas ruke ZvZ
thanks for your input but roach hydra viper is only good vs mech. i have problems with bio + hellbats + mines. there arent any or only few tanks and cloud is very bad vs bio since bio is so fast it just moves out of it while mines arent affected.
just did some testing. something like roach hydra speedbane infestor in midgame might work.
and no dude...hydras are so retardedly bad. especially since you HAVE TO keep them in front of your army since they are the only f.ucking unit to attack mines. so they get killed insanely fast and there you are with nothing to hit his mines.
i am so mad on blizzard. "hydras are played a lot"....well guess what its because you have to play it since nothing else attacks mines and you have to play it vs stargate since nothing else is able to hit air. i am so annoyed by zerg in hots. nothing blizz promised like fixing T2 happened...its so sad to see zerg being at least as messed up as in wol.
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
your analysis of the effectiveness of Hydras is wrong, Hydras are awesome, go raoch/hydra/vi[er and blind the tanks and MMM as much as possible while being careful to clear the mines as cost effectively as possible
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
you cant is unkillable
-ZvZ: well this is more of a thing getting bored by muta vs muta and not a "problem" like in the other 2 MU. i tried different things but hydras and SH just suck while infestor got also nerfed but might work. will try something like ling queen infestor with lot of upgrades...otherwise its mutas again i guess?
mutas ruke ZvZ
thanks for your input but roach hydra viper is only good vs mech. i have problems with bio + hellbats + mines. there arent any or only few tanks and cloud is very bad vs bio since bio is so fast it just moves out of it while mines arent affected.
just did some testing. something like roach hydra speedbane infestor in midgame might work.
and no dude...hydras are so retardedly bad. especially since you HAVE TO keep them in front of your army since they are the only f.ucking unit to attack mines. so they get killed insanely fast and there you are with nothing to hit his mines.
i am so mad on blizzard. "hydras are played a lot"....well guess what its because you have to play it since nothing else attacks mines and you have to play it vs stargate since nothing else is good vs stargate. i am so annoyed by zerg in hots. nothing blizz promised like fixing T2 happened...its so sad to see zerg being at least as messed up as in wol.
just face tank the mine with a roach, yopur trying to kill all the mines without taking damage thats unfeasable assuming they make alot of them
also since you said Widow Mine, hellbat bio tank id assumed it was closer to mech then bio if its bio then ling/infester play defensively and use the long range of fungal at its best potential while teching to ultras/broodlords
or you could try and use ling/bane/muta and swoop in killa mine and swoop out could work but very risky
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
your analysis of the effectiveness of Hydras is wrong, Hydras are awesome, go raoch/hydra/vi[er and blind the tanks and MMM as much as possible while being careful to clear the mines as cost effectively as possible
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
you cant is unkillable
-ZvZ: well this is more of a thing getting bored by muta vs muta and not a "problem" like in the other 2 MU. i tried different things but hydras and SH just suck while infestor got also nerfed but might work. will try something like ling queen infestor with lot of upgrades...otherwise its mutas again i guess?
mutas ruke ZvZ
thanks for your input but roach hydra viper is only good vs mech. i have problems with bio + hellbats + mines. there arent any or only few tanks and cloud is very bad vs bio since bio is so fast it just moves out of it while mines arent affected.
just did some testing. something like roach hydra speedbane infestor in midgame might work.
and no dude...hydras are so retardedly bad. especially since you HAVE TO keep them in front of your army since they are the only f.ucking unit to attack mines. so they get killed insanely fast and there you are with nothing to hit his mines.
i am so mad on blizzard. "hydras are played a lot"....well guess what its because you have to play it since nothing else attacks mines and you have to play it vs stargate since nothing else is good vs stargate. i am so annoyed by zerg in hots. nothing blizz promised like fixing T2 happened...its so sad to see zerg being at least as messed up as in wol.
just face tank the mine with a roach, yopur trying to kill all the mines without taking damage thats unfeasable assuming they make alot of them
also since you said Widow Mine, hellbat bio tank id assumed it was closer to mech then bio if its bio then ling/infester play defensively and use the long range of fungal at its best potential while teching to ultras/broodlords
or you could try and use ling/bane/muta and swoop in killa mine and swoop out could work but very risky
its not "the mine" it is 8-10 so your army is gone if you just a-move into ^^ which is fine designwise, there just needs to be a counter and i think you need to send in speedovis. while this is very expensive in midgame it is still better than losing huge party of your army.
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
your analysis of the effectiveness of Hydras is wrong, Hydras are awesome, go raoch/hydra/vi[er and blind the tanks and MMM as much as possible while being careful to clear the mines as cost effectively as possible
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
you cant is unkillable
-ZvZ: well this is more of a thing getting bored by muta vs muta and not a "problem" like in the other 2 MU. i tried different things but hydras and SH just suck while infestor got also nerfed but might work. will try something like ling queen infestor with lot of upgrades...otherwise its mutas again i guess?
mutas ruke ZvZ
thanks for your input but roach hydra viper is only good vs mech. i have problems with bio + hellbats + mines. there arent any or only few tanks and cloud is very bad vs bio since bio is so fast it just moves out of it while mines arent affected.
just did some testing. something like roach hydra speedbane infestor in midgame might work.
and no dude...hydras are so retardedly bad. especially since you HAVE TO keep them in front of your army since they are the only f.ucking unit to attack mines. so they get killed insanely fast and there you are with nothing to hit his mines.
i am so mad on blizzard. "hydras are played a lot"....well guess what its because you have to play it since nothing else attacks mines and you have to play it vs stargate since nothing else is good vs stargate. i am so annoyed by zerg in hots. nothing blizz promised like fixing T2 happened...its so sad to see zerg being at least as messed up as in wol.
just face tank the mine with a roach, yopur trying to kill all the mines without taking damage thats unfeasable assuming they make alot of them
also since you said Widow Mine, hellbat bio tank id assumed it was closer to mech then bio if its bio then ling/infester play defensively and use the long range of fungal at its best potential while teching to ultras/broodlords
or you could try and use ling/bane/muta and swoop in killa mine and swoop out could work but very risky
its not "the mine" it is 8-10 so your army is gone if you just a-move into ^^ which is fine designwise, there just needs to be a counter and i think you need to send in speedovis. while this is very expensive in midgame it is still better than losing huge party of your army.
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
your analysis of the effectiveness of Hydras is wrong, Hydras are awesome, go raoch/hydra/vi[er and blind the tanks and MMM as much as possible while being careful to clear the mines as cost effectively as possible
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
you cant is unkillable
-ZvZ: well this is more of a thing getting bored by muta vs muta and not a "problem" like in the other 2 MU. i tried different things but hydras and SH just suck while infestor got also nerfed but might work. will try something like ling queen infestor with lot of upgrades...otherwise its mutas again i guess?
mutas ruke ZvZ
thanks for your input but roach hydra viper is only good vs mech. i have problems with bio + hellbats + mines. there arent any or only few tanks and cloud is very bad vs bio since bio is so fast it just moves out of it while mines arent affected.
just did some testing. something like roach hydra speedbane infestor in midgame might work.
and no dude...hydras are so retardedly bad. especially since you HAVE TO keep them in front of your army since they are the only f.ucking unit to attack mines. so they get killed insanely fast and there you are with nothing to hit his mines.
i am so mad on blizzard. "hydras are played a lot"....well guess what its because you have to play it since nothing else attacks mines and you have to play it vs stargate since nothing else is good vs stargate. i am so annoyed by zerg in hots. nothing blizz promised like fixing T2 happened...its so sad to see zerg being at least as messed up as in wol.
just face tank the mine with a roach, yopur trying to kill all the mines without taking damage thats unfeasable assuming they make alot of them
also since you said Widow Mine, hellbat bio tank id assumed it was closer to mech then bio if its bio then ling/infester play defensively and use the long range of fungal at its best potential while teching to ultras/broodlords
or you could try and use ling/bane/muta and swoop in killa mine and swoop out could work but very risky
its not "the mine" it is 8-10 so your army is gone if you just a-move into ^^ which is fine designwise, there just needs to be a counter and i think you need to send in speedovis. while this is very expensive in midgame it is still better than losing huge party of your army.
wow awesome idea, did not think of that, if they have more than 2-3 WMS just have like 6 speed OLs lead your army,pretty smart. whats giving me a ton of trouble are these marine/ heavy tank with a few maurauders sprinklled in with a hellbat wall in front, whats the way to go against this?
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
your analysis of the effectiveness of Hydras is wrong, Hydras are awesome, go raoch/hydra/vi[er and blind the tanks and MMM as much as possible while being careful to clear the mines as cost effectively as possible
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
you cant is unkillable
-ZvZ: well this is more of a thing getting bored by muta vs muta and not a "problem" like in the other 2 MU. i tried different things but hydras and SH just suck while infestor got also nerfed but might work. will try something like ling queen infestor with lot of upgrades...otherwise its mutas again i guess?
mutas ruke ZvZ
thanks for your input but roach hydra viper is only good vs mech. i have problems with bio + hellbats + mines. there arent any or only few tanks and cloud is very bad vs bio since bio is so fast it just moves out of it while mines arent affected.
just did some testing. something like roach hydra speedbane infestor in midgame might work.
and no dude...hydras are so retardedly bad. especially since you HAVE TO keep them in front of your army since they are the only f.ucking unit to attack mines. so they get killed insanely fast and there you are with nothing to hit his mines.
i am so mad on blizzard. "hydras are played a lot"....well guess what its because you have to play it since nothing else attacks mines and you have to play it vs stargate since nothing else is good vs stargate. i am so annoyed by zerg in hots. nothing blizz promised like fixing T2 happened...its so sad to see zerg being at least as messed up as in wol.
just face tank the mine with a roach, yopur trying to kill all the mines without taking damage thats unfeasable assuming they make alot of them
also since you said Widow Mine, hellbat bio tank id assumed it was closer to mech then bio if its bio then ling/infester play defensively and use the long range of fungal at its best potential while teching to ultras/broodlords
or you could try and use ling/bane/muta and swoop in killa mine and swoop out could work but very risky
its not "the mine" it is 8-10 so your army is gone if you just a-move into ^^ which is fine designwise, there just needs to be a counter and i think you need to send in speedovis. while this is very expensive in midgame it is still better than losing huge party of your army.
wow awesome idea, did not think of that, if they have more than 2-3 WMS just have like 6 speed OLs lead your army,pretty smart. whats giving me a ton of trouble are these marine/ heavy tank with a few maurauders sprinklled in with a hellbat wall in front, whats the way to go against this?
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
your analysis of the effectiveness of Hydras is wrong, Hydras are awesome, go raoch/hydra/vi[er and blind the tanks and MMM as much as possible while being careful to clear the mines as cost effectively as possible
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
you cant is unkillable
-ZvZ: well this is more of a thing getting bored by muta vs muta and not a "problem" like in the other 2 MU. i tried different things but hydras and SH just suck while infestor got also nerfed but might work. will try something like ling queen infestor with lot of upgrades...otherwise its mutas again i guess?
mutas ruke ZvZ
thanks for your input but roach hydra viper is only good vs mech. i have problems with bio + hellbats + mines. there arent any or only few tanks and cloud is very bad vs bio since bio is so fast it just moves out of it while mines arent affected.
just did some testing. something like roach hydra speedbane infestor in midgame might work.
and no dude...hydras are so retardedly bad. especially since you HAVE TO keep them in front of your army since they are the only f.ucking unit to attack mines. so they get killed insanely fast and there you are with nothing to hit his mines.
i am so mad on blizzard. "hydras are played a lot"....well guess what its because you have to play it since nothing else attacks mines and you have to play it vs stargate since nothing else is good vs stargate. i am so annoyed by zerg in hots. nothing blizz promised like fixing T2 happened...its so sad to see zerg being at least as messed up as in wol.
just face tank the mine with a roach, yopur trying to kill all the mines without taking damage thats unfeasable assuming they make alot of them
also since you said Widow Mine, hellbat bio tank id assumed it was closer to mech then bio if its bio then ling/infester play defensively and use the long range of fungal at its best potential while teching to ultras/broodlords
or you could try and use ling/bane/muta and swoop in killa mine and swoop out could work but very risky
its not "the mine" it is 8-10 so your army is gone if you just a-move into ^^ which is fine designwise, there just needs to be a counter and i think you need to send in speedovis. while this is very expensive in midgame it is still better than losing huge party of your army.
maybe dont Amove...?
i dont, but you told me to take mine hit with roach head on ^^ but yeah speedovis might give zerg a chance vs that comp. we´ll see ^^
Does anyone have experience with roach doom drops on top of Terran mech armies in HotS? Sort of like what Soulkey did on his recent GSL match? With hellbats and widow mines, I'm curious how effective that is.
On February 09 2013 03:18 MstrJinbo wrote: Does anyone have experience with roach doom drops on top of Terran mech armies in HotS? Sort of like what Soulkey did on his recent GSL match? With hellbats and widow mines, I'm curious how effective that is.
with the new Thors would be less effective since theyd actually shoot them down
On February 09 2013 03:18 MstrJinbo wrote: Does anyone have experience with roach doom drops on top of Terran mech armies in HotS? Sort of like what Soulkey did on his recent GSL match? With hellbats and widow mines, I'm curious how effective that is.
with the new Thors would be less effective since theyd actually shoot them down
On February 09 2013 03:18 MstrJinbo wrote: Does anyone have experience with roach doom drops on top of Terran mech armies in HotS? Sort of like what Soulkey did on his recent GSL match? With hellbats and widow mines, I'm curious how effective that is.
with the new Thors would be less effective since theyd actually shoot them down
plus widow mines would shoot them down
Hmmm, didn't even consider the thors.
imo with blinding cloud Mech isnt even an issue in HoTS
On February 09 2013 03:18 MstrJinbo wrote: Does anyone have experience with roach doom drops on top of Terran mech armies in HotS? Sort of like what Soulkey did on his recent GSL match? With hellbats and widow mines, I'm curious how effective that is.
with the new Thors would be less effective since theyd actually shoot them down
plus widow mines would shoot them down
Hmmm, didn't even consider the thors.
imo with blinding cloud Mech isnt even an issue in HoTS
Yeah have had some success with vipers, just moved over to 100% HotS so still getting used to them. When do you normally go for the hive?
On February 09 2013 03:18 MstrJinbo wrote: Does anyone have experience with roach doom drops on top of Terran mech armies in HotS? Sort of like what Soulkey did on his recent GSL match? With hellbats and widow mines, I'm curious how effective that is.
with the new Thors would be less effective since theyd actually shoot them down
plus widow mines would shoot them down
Hmmm, didn't even consider the thors.
imo with blinding cloud Mech isnt even an issue in HoTS
Yeah have had some success with vipers, just moved over to 100% HotS so still getting used to them. When do you normally go for the hive?
i rpetty mcuh drop my infestatiuon pit at same time as hydra pit and then hive as soon as infestation pit us up
What do you guys think about double spire mutas in zvt? Today i was on big hangover and accidentaly i made 2 spires as a mistake so i decided i would use them, I made shitton of 3-3 mutas and kept him in base it worked extremely well (he played marine tank medivac) since mutas are now faster and stronger
On February 08 2013 07:37 Decendos wrote: okay guys i need serious help. i am completely lost right now in pretty much each MU.
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
any help will be much appreciated, especially in ZvT i cant even imagine how to beat that comp in theory since zerg just has no units to attack protected widow mines expect BLs which come so late i am dead already.
I just laddered for few hours and had almost exactly the same trouble. Voidray/HT/Archon/Zealot just beats anything. Hydras are the only thing capable of killing voidrays but it takes just few storms to rape your whole even splitted 3/3!!!!!! hydra army. If you try to keep HT/Archon from you hydras with roaches they get you maybe 3seconds as voidrays melt EVERYTHING. Infestor is nerfed to oblivion so feedback /zealot kills them super fast. Remember roaches already melted.
Also WM/siege tank/hellbat timing on two bases just means i leave the game. No need to research siege mode allows them to siege you third really quickly while you pump roaches to defend possible hellbat BULLSHIT drops. And we all know how roaches deal with WM/siege tank. Hellbats just kill anything else. And I almost forgot, I cant do shit about it, because he has reaper in my from THE START of the game in my base just circling around. Queens on creep are like 10times slower.
I am so fucking angry right now. And to think they give us overlord speed on hatch tech to fix the game makes me want to not play this crap for few months.
On February 08 2013 07:37 Decendos wrote: okay guys i need serious help. i am completely lost right now in pretty much each MU.
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
any help will be much appreciated, especially in ZvT i cant even imagine how to beat that comp in theory since zerg just has no units to attack protected widow mines expect BLs which come so late i am dead already.
I just laddered for few hours and had almost exactly the same trouble. Voidray/HT/Archon/Zealot just beats anything. Hydras are the only thing capable of killing voidrays but it takes just few storms to rape your whole even splitted 3/3!!!!!! hydra army. If you try to keep HT/Archon from you hydras with roaches they get you maybe 3seconds as voidrays melt EVERYTHING. Infestor is nerfed to oblivion so feedback /zealot kills them super fast. Remember roaches already melted.
Also WM/siege tank/hellbat timing on two bases just means i leave the game. No need to research siege mode allows them to siege you third really quickly while you pump roaches to defend possible hellbat BULLSHIT drops. And we all know how roaches deal with WM/siege tank. Hellbats just kill anything else. And I almost forgot, I cant do shit about it, because he has reaper in my from THE START of the game in my base just circling around. Queens on creep are like 10times slower.
I am so fucking angry right now. And to think they give us overlord speed on hatch tech to fix the game makes me want to not play this crap for few months.
storm doesnt give a fuck about upgrades but yes a skytoss deathball is nearly unkillable
your rant on terran jsut makes no sense, just calm down take a deep breath and think about it rationally
On February 08 2013 07:37 Decendos wrote: okay guys i need serious help. i am completely lost right now in pretty much each MU.
- ZvT: how do you play against WM + MMM + hellbat with maybe 3-4 tanks? i found no way to be even closely cost efficient. basically zerg has no units (other than BL lol) to attack WM if it is protected. you cant send in single lings, hydras are the worst unit ever, SH are the 2nd worst unit ever, mutas are awesome but mines hit air + hellbats are sick vs ling bling that you have with your mutas, infestor...well...maybe but will get nerfed even more.
-ZvP: yeah just one word: skytoss + HT. absolutely no idea how to beat it. i had games where i was 8 vs 3 or 4 base and lost the game even with 10k spores since he had 8 tempest or so and killed them without taking damage. the best comp i tried so far is 6 ultras, 15 queen, 15 infestors and 30 corruptors (with spore cancel so 230/200 supply). that works halfway decent depending on his comp but still not cost efficient enough to win.
any help will be much appreciated, especially in ZvT i cant even imagine how to beat that comp in theory since zerg just has no units to attack protected widow mines expect BLs which come so late i am dead already.
I just laddered for few hours and had almost exactly the same trouble. Voidray/HT/Archon/Zealot just beats anything. Hydras are the only thing capable of killing voidrays but it takes just few storms to rape your whole even splitted 3/3!!!!!! hydra army. If you try to keep HT/Archon from you hydras with roaches they get you maybe 3seconds as voidrays melt EVERYTHING. Infestor is nerfed to oblivion so feedback /zealot kills them super fast. Remember roaches already melted.
Also WM/siege tank/hellbat timing on two bases just means i leave the game. No need to research siege mode allows them to siege you third really quickly while you pump roaches to defend possible hellbat BULLSHIT drops. And we all know how roaches deal with WM/siege tank. Hellbats just kill anything else. And I almost forgot, I cant do shit about it, because he has reaper in my from THE START of the game in my base just circling around. Queens on creep are like 10times slower.
I am so fucking angry right now. And to think they give us overlord speed on hatch tech to fix the game makes me want to not play this crap for few months.
Show me a replay of a game where the Terran makes 3 tanks, sieges up at your third, then kills everything you throw at him.
Ok so i just got into hots and this thing just hit me like a truck. You cannot click enemy gas .. How am I to find out his speed timing, or all timings... What if he goes 15p 14g 14h .. and I will go with ovie and see he got gas .. I will know nothing IF i dont know how much he mined ..
On February 13 2013 05:36 Veriol wrote: Ok so i just got into hots and this thing just hit me like a truck. You cannot click enemy gas .. How am I to find out his speed timing, or all timings... What if he goes 15p 14g 14h .. and I will go with ovie and see he got gas .. I will know nothing IF i dont know how much he mined ..
How do you play zvz in hots?
Go to options and uncheck that can't select enemy units and stuff.
On February 13 2013 05:36 Veriol wrote: Ok so i just got into hots and this thing just hit me like a truck. You cannot click enemy gas .. How am I to find out his speed timing, or all timings... What if he goes 15p 14g 14h .. and I will go with ovie and see he got gas .. I will know nothing IF i dont know how much he mined ..
How do you play zvz in hots?
Go to options and uncheck that can't select enemy units and stuff.
I completly unlearned how to Zerg in HotS ... While i play top 16 / top 8 Masters in WIngs i BEARLY hang on in low low diamond now in HotS after dropping down from Masters there. I feel like all that potential early pressure that simply kills you if you make one misstake (hellbats, proxy reapoer and what not) makes the midgame a incredibly hard phase to survive because i can´t get into it ahead, i´m even at best but 90% of the time i´m behind.
A lot of the buildorders i found in replays simply don´t work anymore because of said early game and when i watch Zerg pros stream i never see them win actually, eccept for when they hold a allin of the Terran / plays like WoL
Does anyone have a good replaypack which could provide me with up to date builds that are solid? Sorry for the whine but its upsetting when you get so terrible suddenly TT
hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
On February 13 2013 11:37 onyxAnubis wrote: hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
first of all pull like 8 drones as soon as you see the bunker and stop it from going up, as soon as your nat finishs start a spine crawler there and use your lings to zone out the enemy units long enough for it to go up then move it so its just BARELY in range of the bunker
also i kinda feel like your leaving out some important stuff, you go from unable to stop a bunker going up to nydusing his main with no info in between
On February 13 2013 06:31 gCgCrypto wrote: I completly unlearned how to Zerg in HotS ... While i play top 16 / top 8 Masters in WIngs i BEARLY hang on in low low diamond now in HotS after dropping down from Masters there. I feel like all that potential early pressure that simply kills you if you make one misstake (hellbats, proxy reapoer and what not) makes the midgame a incredibly hard phase to survive because i can´t get into it ahead, i´m even at best but 90% of the time i´m behind.
A lot of the buildorders i found in replays simply don´t work anymore because of said early game and when i watch Zerg pros stream i never see them win actually, eccept for when they hold a allin of the Terran / plays like WoL
Does anyone have a good replaypack which could provide me with up to date builds that are solid? Sorry for the whine but its upsetting when you get so terrible suddenly TT
While I don't have any advice, most people are a lower league in HoTS then in WoL. I think it's because mostly better players are in the beta, while casual bronze/silver players don't really care, so bronze HoTS is silver WoL, silver HoTS = gold WoL etc. So while you are in diamond, you are probably playing against mostly masters/high diamond WoL players. So don't feel too bad if you aren't able to get back into masters.
On February 09 2013 03:18 MstrJinbo wrote: Does anyone have experience with roach doom drops on top of Terran mech armies in HotS? Sort of like what Soulkey did on his recent GSL match? With hellbats and widow mines, I'm curious how effective that is.
The problem is if you drop on the mech it's like wol but way worse because hellbats tank really well and deal a lot of damage when units are right next to them. That being said mech is really tough to beat right now, so it might still be your best option.
On February 13 2013 22:54 Neverblink wrote: Vs Mech
Roach/Hydra/Viper. Seriously, Mech is very easy to defeat with Vipers blinding cloud ability. Drop the cloud on the tanks/thors.
Hydra/Viper/Corrupter/Broodlord is ultimate group but gonna cost ya about 5 bases.
ling/bane/muta/infestor/viper/ultra is also really nice (not mutaheavy, just as an opening to put some pressure on). i didnt feel the need so far to add in neither hydras nor roaches, only adding hydras in the very end when there is a skytransition coming. However it feels most important to get vipers for tanks and neurals for thors. Cloud on thors doenst seem to be as good in a open are where terran is positioned well. that being said, neurals are kinda guaranteed to go off without tanks being able to focus the infestors down. its also really nice to move neuraled units into mine fields instead of ovis ^^
On February 13 2013 11:37 onyxAnubis wrote: hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
first of all pull like 8 drones as soon as you see the bunker and stop it from going up, as soon as your nat finishs start a spine crawler there and use your lings to zone out the enemy units long enough for it to go up then move it so its just BARELY in range of the bunker
also i kinda feel like your leaving out some important stuff, you go from unable to stop a bunker going up to nydusing his main with no info in between
i feel like pulling drones is kind of useless vs a reaper rush, as you shouldnt be able to kill them due to that retarded health regen, and if you try to focus the bunker, you'll lose too many drones and he can stop making reapers and transition. In regards to missing information, the general timeline of the game was once I saw the bunker at my nat, I sent ~6 drones to stop the bunker, then immediately retreated them upon seeing the reaper. I double gasses off 1 base and got lair immediately after my queen finished. I nydused him with about 3~ queens and ~10 roaches decently quickly but when i entered his base, the one tank that wouldnt not usually have been enough to stop such an attack crushed it because he had 2 tanks due to not having to buy siege mode.
Two seperate but questions, but has anyone had success with mutas or broodlords in ZvP? Most protoss opens up stargate (strongest tech path) so going straight for mutas is usually countered by mass phoenix.
Same for broodlords, if they scout the G spire morphing they'll start on the tempest production. Should I just save the guess and not go for G spire in ZvP?
Sorry if this was asked before...if so, please point me to the right thread. With HOTS, I am having trouble figuring out Terran's opening and setting up proper counters...
In terms of scouting, what do you look for and when? Send a zergling in front of their exp? Do you still sac OL at 6 min? Is there certain timings? Is there a standard play that you use? How should I not over worry about drops?
If I am against a one base, play...what should i do...(drop a spore, build roaches etc.)
I am learning lots by those that I lost...two rax + proxy factory play (reapers + widow mines)...marines/hellbats
On February 14 2013 05:26 nomyx wrote: Two seperate but questions, but has anyone had success with mutas or broodlords in ZvP? Most protoss opens up stargate (strongest tech path) so going straight for mutas is usually countered by mass phoenix.
Same for broodlords, if they scout the G spire morphing they'll start on the tempest production. Should I just save the guess and not go for G spire in ZvP?
I usually sac an overlord just before lair finishes. If I scout stargates I throw down a hydra den, if I see robo I throw down mutas. Mutas are really strong against robo/gateway toss, and are a good transition into ultras or even mutas into swarm hosts into ultras.
On February 13 2013 11:37 onyxAnubis wrote: hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
first of all pull like 8 drones as soon as you see the bunker and stop it from going up, as soon as your nat finishs start a spine crawler there and use your lings to zone out the enemy units long enough for it to go up then move it so its just BARELY in range of the bunker
also i kinda feel like your leaving out some important stuff, you go from unable to stop a bunker going up to nydusing his main with no info in between
i feel like pulling drones is kind of useless vs a reaper rush, as you shouldnt be able to kill them due to that retarded health regen, and if you try to focus the bunker, you'll lose too many drones and he can stop making reapers and transition. In regards to missing information, the general timeline of the game was once I saw the bunker at my nat, I sent ~6 drones to stop the bunker, then immediately retreated them upon seeing the reaper. I double gasses off 1 base and got lair immediately after my queen finished. I nydused him with about 3~ queens and ~10 roaches decently quickly but when i entered his base, the one tank that wouldnt not usually have been enough to stop such an attack crushed it because he had 2 tanks due to not having to buy siege mode.
reapers barely do more damage then a marine now so theres no reason to be scared of one reaper
i dont see how he managed to kill your natural with reapers and ahve enough gas to get 2 siege tanks
On February 13 2013 11:37 onyxAnubis wrote: hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
first of all pull like 8 drones as soon as you see the bunker and stop it from going up, as soon as your nat finishs start a spine crawler there and use your lings to zone out the enemy units long enough for it to go up then move it so its just BARELY in range of the bunker
also i kinda feel like your leaving out some important stuff, you go from unable to stop a bunker going up to nydusing his main with no info in between
i feel like pulling drones is kind of useless vs a reaper rush, as you shouldnt be able to kill them due to that retarded health regen, and if you try to focus the bunker, you'll lose too many drones and he can stop making reapers and transition. In regards to missing information, the general timeline of the game was once I saw the bunker at my nat, I sent ~6 drones to stop the bunker, then immediately retreated them upon seeing the reaper. I double gasses off 1 base and got lair immediately after my queen finished. I nydused him with about 3~ queens and ~10 roaches decently quickly but when i entered his base, the one tank that wouldnt not usually have been enough to stop such an attack crushed it because he had 2 tanks due to not having to buy siege mode.
reapers barely do more damage then a marine now so theres no reason to be scared of one reaper
i dont see how he managed to kill your natural with reapers and ahve enough gas to get 2 siege tanks
reapers are actually really really really really good now with their speed, fast hp regen, and buffed hp.
On February 13 2013 11:37 onyxAnubis wrote: hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
first of all pull like 8 drones as soon as you see the bunker and stop it from going up, as soon as your nat finishs start a spine crawler there and use your lings to zone out the enemy units long enough for it to go up then move it so its just BARELY in range of the bunker
also i kinda feel like your leaving out some important stuff, you go from unable to stop a bunker going up to nydusing his main with no info in between
i feel like pulling drones is kind of useless vs a reaper rush, as you shouldnt be able to kill them due to that retarded health regen, and if you try to focus the bunker, you'll lose too many drones and he can stop making reapers and transition. In regards to missing information, the general timeline of the game was once I saw the bunker at my nat, I sent ~6 drones to stop the bunker, then immediately retreated them upon seeing the reaper. I double gasses off 1 base and got lair immediately after my queen finished. I nydused him with about 3~ queens and ~10 roaches decently quickly but when i entered his base, the one tank that wouldnt not usually have been enough to stop such an attack crushed it because he had 2 tanks due to not having to buy siege mode.
reapers barely do more damage then a marine now so theres no reason to be scared of one reaper
i dont see how he managed to kill your natural with reapers and ahve enough gas to get 2 siege tanks
reapers are actually really really really really good now with their speed, fast hp regen, and buffed hp.
tehy used to be really good until tehy lost there +light damage
On February 13 2013 11:37 onyxAnubis wrote: hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
first of all pull like 8 drones as soon as you see the bunker and stop it from going up, as soon as your nat finishs start a spine crawler there and use your lings to zone out the enemy units long enough for it to go up then move it so its just BARELY in range of the bunker
also i kinda feel like your leaving out some important stuff, you go from unable to stop a bunker going up to nydusing his main with no info in between
i feel like pulling drones is kind of useless vs a reaper rush, as you shouldnt be able to kill them due to that retarded health regen, and if you try to focus the bunker, you'll lose too many drones and he can stop making reapers and transition. In regards to missing information, the general timeline of the game was once I saw the bunker at my nat, I sent ~6 drones to stop the bunker, then immediately retreated them upon seeing the reaper. I double gasses off 1 base and got lair immediately after my queen finished. I nydused him with about 3~ queens and ~10 roaches decently quickly but when i entered his base, the one tank that wouldnt not usually have been enough to stop such an attack crushed it because he had 2 tanks due to not having to buy siege mode.
reapers barely do more damage then a marine now so theres no reason to be scared of one reaper
i dont see how he managed to kill your natural with reapers and ahve enough gas to get 2 siege tanks
reapers are actually really really really really good now with their speed, fast hp regen, and buffed hp.
tehy used to be really good until tehy lost there +light damage
now there good scouts but crappy combat units
This is a common misconception it seems about hots reapers. Reapers are actually sick good now. 4-5 reapers still do a ton of damage if the zerg isn't prepared properly and the running away - healing - repeat.
Korean terrans have show cased how strong and annoying reapers can be since they can come out a lot faster and grow in numbers faster due to no tech lab requirement. If the zerg doesn't defend properly he will take immense amount of damage economically.
On February 13 2013 11:37 onyxAnubis wrote: hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
first of all pull like 8 drones as soon as you see the bunker and stop it from going up, as soon as your nat finishs start a spine crawler there and use your lings to zone out the enemy units long enough for it to go up then move it so its just BARELY in range of the bunker
also i kinda feel like your leaving out some important stuff, you go from unable to stop a bunker going up to nydusing his main with no info in between
i feel like pulling drones is kind of useless vs a reaper rush, as you shouldnt be able to kill them due to that retarded health regen, and if you try to focus the bunker, you'll lose too many drones and he can stop making reapers and transition. In regards to missing information, the general timeline of the game was once I saw the bunker at my nat, I sent ~6 drones to stop the bunker, then immediately retreated them upon seeing the reaper. I double gasses off 1 base and got lair immediately after my queen finished. I nydused him with about 3~ queens and ~10 roaches decently quickly but when i entered his base, the one tank that wouldnt not usually have been enough to stop such an attack crushed it because he had 2 tanks due to not having to buy siege mode.
reapers barely do more damage then a marine now so theres no reason to be scared of one reaper
i dont see how he managed to kill your natural with reapers and ahve enough gas to get 2 siege tanks
reapers are actually really really really really good now with their speed, fast hp regen, and buffed hp.
tehy used to be really good until tehy lost there +light damage
now there good scouts but crappy combat units
This is a common misconception it seems about hots reapers. Reapers are actually sick good now. 4-5 reapers still do a ton of damage if the zerg isn't prepared properly.
Korean terrans have show cased how strong and annoying reapers can be since they can come out a lot faster and grow in numbers faster due to no tech lab requirement. If the zerg doesn't defend properly he will take immense amount of damage economically.
but they dont do much more damage then a marines (not sure about attack speed but 8 damage to 6) and they cost double so id be more scared if there massing marines then reapers
at any rate were not talking about mass reaper, jsut one reaper guarding a building bunker
On February 13 2013 11:37 onyxAnubis wrote: hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
first of all pull like 8 drones as soon as you see the bunker and stop it from going up, as soon as your nat finishs start a spine crawler there and use your lings to zone out the enemy units long enough for it to go up then move it so its just BARELY in range of the bunker
also i kinda feel like your leaving out some important stuff, you go from unable to stop a bunker going up to nydusing his main with no info in between
i feel like pulling drones is kind of useless vs a reaper rush, as you shouldnt be able to kill them due to that retarded health regen, and if you try to focus the bunker, you'll lose too many drones and he can stop making reapers and transition. In regards to missing information, the general timeline of the game was once I saw the bunker at my nat, I sent ~6 drones to stop the bunker, then immediately retreated them upon seeing the reaper. I double gasses off 1 base and got lair immediately after my queen finished. I nydused him with about 3~ queens and ~10 roaches decently quickly but when i entered his base, the one tank that wouldnt not usually have been enough to stop such an attack crushed it because he had 2 tanks due to not having to buy siege mode.
reapers barely do more damage then a marine now so theres no reason to be scared of one reaper
i dont see how he managed to kill your natural with reapers and ahve enough gas to get 2 siege tanks
reapers are actually really really really really good now with their speed, fast hp regen, and buffed hp.
tehy used to be really good until tehy lost there +light damage
now there good scouts but crappy combat units
This is a common misconception it seems about hots reapers. Reapers are actually sick good now. 4-5 reapers still do a ton of damage if the zerg isn't prepared properly.
Korean terrans have show cased how strong and annoying reapers can be since they can come out a lot faster and grow in numbers faster due to no tech lab requirement. If the zerg doesn't defend properly he will take immense amount of damage economically.
but they dont do much more damage then a marines (not sure about attack speed but 8 damage to 6) and they cost double so id be more scared if there massing marines then reapers
at any rate were not talking about mass reaper, jsut one reaper guarding a building bunker
Well 1 reaper isn't scary sure, but you replied to his post and I am pretty sure he was talking about mass reapers. Trust me though if you played a terran that knows how to use reapers will you would find the new reapers scarier then early marines. Once ling speed finishes reapers are no longer scary :D
On February 13 2013 11:37 onyxAnubis wrote: hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
first of all pull like 8 drones as soon as you see the bunker and stop it from going up, as soon as your nat finishs start a spine crawler there and use your lings to zone out the enemy units long enough for it to go up then move it so its just BARELY in range of the bunker
also i kinda feel like your leaving out some important stuff, you go from unable to stop a bunker going up to nydusing his main with no info in between
i feel like pulling drones is kind of useless vs a reaper rush, as you shouldnt be able to kill them due to that retarded health regen, and if you try to focus the bunker, you'll lose too many drones and he can stop making reapers and transition. In regards to missing information, the general timeline of the game was once I saw the bunker at my nat, I sent ~6 drones to stop the bunker, then immediately retreated them upon seeing the reaper. I double gasses off 1 base and got lair immediately after my queen finished. I nydused him with about 3~ queens and ~10 roaches decently quickly but when i entered his base, the one tank that wouldnt not usually have been enough to stop such an attack crushed it because he had 2 tanks due to not having to buy siege mode.
reapers barely do more damage then a marine now so theres no reason to be scared of one reaper
i dont see how he managed to kill your natural with reapers and ahve enough gas to get 2 siege tanks
reapers are actually really really really really good now with their speed, fast hp regen, and buffed hp.
tehy used to be really good until tehy lost there +light damage
now there good scouts but crappy combat units
This is a common misconception it seems about hots reapers. Reapers are actually sick good now. 4-5 reapers still do a ton of damage if the zerg isn't prepared properly.
Korean terrans have show cased how strong and annoying reapers can be since they can come out a lot faster and grow in numbers faster due to no tech lab requirement. If the zerg doesn't defend properly he will take immense amount of damage economically.
but they dont do much more damage then a marines (not sure about attack speed but 8 damage to 6) and they cost double so id be more scared if there massing marines then reapers
at any rate were not talking about mass reaper, jsut one reaper guarding a building bunker
Well 1 reaper isn't scary sure, but you replied to his post and I am pretty sure he was talking about mass reapers. Trust me though if you played a terran that knows how to use reapers will you would find the new reapers scarier then early marines. Once ling speed finishes reapers are no longer scary :D
Yeah I wasn't referring to just 1 reaper, and honestly from what I've seen (I'm not the best player or anything) a well microd small pack of reapers can still fair quite well vs speed lings and slow roaches, as long as they don't get caught in a bad spot on creep.
when doing a swarm host contain against a Toss, if they dont go stargate at all and just get a bunch of collosi with a couple immortals should i be going mainly roach as backup or a roach/hydra mix? is it a good idea to get corrutpers in this scenario?
On February 14 2013 16:01 Forikorder wrote: when doing a swarm host contain against a Toss, if they dont go stargate at all and just get a bunch of collosi with a couple immortals should i be going mainly roach as backup or a roach/hydra mix? is it a good idea to get corrutpers in this scenario?
I think the best option here if you're on 6 gases is to tech vipers and pull he's colossi into your SH. In the mean time you can keep building SH and mix in ling/roach if hes army is looking scary.
On February 14 2013 16:01 Forikorder wrote: when doing a swarm host contain against a Toss, if they dont go stargate at all and just get a bunch of collosi with a couple immortals should i be going mainly roach as backup or a roach/hydra mix? is it a good idea to get corrutpers in this scenario?
I always get corruptors with hydra support then once you get hive add in vipers. I think swarmhost/hydra/corruptor/viper is very powerful.
Hey, i don't see any way to play ling bling mutalisks in zvt anymore and i hate it -.- Hellbat too strong :DD Do you guys have the same problem with playing ling heavy in zvt?
On February 13 2013 11:37 onyxAnubis wrote: hi, what is the best response to a terran who proxies reapers at you and bunkers your natural? i saw the whole thing with my 10 drone scout and went like 15 pool before hatch. i tried to stop his bunker from going up but there was a reaper already there so i couldnt take down the bunker. also, when i finally nydused his main, he had free siege mode, so.........need some help here.
One thing to keep in mind is that reaper damage against lings and drones is much smaller than it was in WoL, so a bunker with 1 reaper isn't that scary. It takes 6 shots to kill a drone and 5 shots to kill a ling, so you have more than enough time to pull the unit that is getting shot away from the bunker and not lose it.
On February 15 2013 01:56 OneObsession wrote: Hey, i don't see any way to play ling bling mutalisks in zvt anymore and i hate it -.- Hellbat too strong :DD Do you guys have the same problem with playing ling heavy in zvt?
if they have hellbats then there probably going mech in which case you want roach/hydra/viper
if thy go pure bio (imo the stronger army) then ling/bling/muta still works fine
On February 15 2013 01:56 OneObsession wrote: Hey, i don't see any way to play ling bling mutalisks in zvt anymore and i hate it -.- Hellbat too strong :DD Do you guys have the same problem with playing ling heavy in zvt?
if they have hellbats then there probably going mech in which case you want roach/hydra/viper
if thy go pure bio (imo the stronger army) then ling/bling/muta still works fine
Yes this is mostly the case. In WoL you used to be able to go for Muta fairly blindly, but I don't suggest this anymore. You should only go Muta on a tech switch after scouting the enemy to make sure they would work and don't have defenses setup, or that they are going heavy bio + hellbats. You know Hellbats are still light units, right? In this case you can blow them the hell up with Banelings, just make sure you get Baneling speed trained.
Otherwise go Roach/Hydra/Viper. Especially if you see they are mech you typically want Roach/Hydra/Viper.
If you see they start massing tanks instead of going tank heavy, you have two options. You can either get Overlord Drops if you have Overlord Speed researched already, and drop some blings/roaches on top of the tanks. Or if you have the time you can try to tech to Broodlords and it will become a micro battle where you have to make sure you blind all thors and focus fire them with ground units while taking out the Tanks with the BL.
But Roach/Hydra/Viper is a much stronger "base" composition in HotS than it was in WoL. Muta - while performed well can do some huge damage - has many more weaknesses and longer tech switches if you need to get out of it. You need to play a bit more wisely if you want to use Mutas now, even with their buffs.
On February 15 2013 01:56 OneObsession wrote: Hey, i don't see any way to play ling bling mutalisks in zvt anymore and i hate it -.- Hellbat too strong :DD Do you guys have the same problem with playing ling heavy in zvt?
if they have hellbats then there probably going mech in which case you want roach/hydra/viper
if thy go pure bio (imo the stronger army) then ling/bling/muta still works fine
Yes this is mostly the case. In WoL you used to be able to go for Muta fairly blindly, but I don't suggest this anymore. You should only go Muta on a tech switch after scouting the enemy to make sure they would work and don't have defenses setup, or that they are going heavy bio + hellbats. You know Hellbats are still light units, right? In this case you can blow them the hell up with Banelings, just make sure you get Baneling speed trained.
Otherwise go Roach/Hydra/Viper. Especially if you see they are mech you typically want Roach/Hydra/Viper.
If you see they start massing tanks instead of going tank heavy, you have two options. You can either get Overlord Drops if you have Overlord Speed researched already, and drop some blings/roaches on top of the tanks. Or if you have the time you can try to tech to Broodlords and it will become a micro battle where you have to make sure you blind all thors and focus fire them with ground units while taking out the Tanks with the BL.
But Roach/Hydra/Viper is a much stronger "base" composition in HotS than it was in WoL. Muta - while performed well can do some huge damage - has many more weaknesses and longer tech switches if you need to get out of it. You need to play a bit more wisely if you want to use Mutas now, even with their buffs.
so sad that lings are kinda useless in zvt T.T and i miss my muta ling bling play in wol i mean it was dynamic and mobil and more of a micro battle vs terran now it is just mass roach xD
On February 15 2013 01:56 OneObsession wrote: Hey, i don't see any way to play ling bling mutalisks in zvt anymore and i hate it -.- Hellbat too strong :DD Do you guys have the same problem with playing ling heavy in zvt?
if they have hellbats then there probably going mech in which case you want roach/hydra/viper
if thy go pure bio (imo the stronger army) then ling/bling/muta still works fine
Yes this is mostly the case. In WoL you used to be able to go for Muta fairly blindly, but I don't suggest this anymore. You should only go Muta on a tech switch after scouting the enemy to make sure they would work and don't have defenses setup, or that they are going heavy bio + hellbats. You know Hellbats are still light units, right? In this case you can blow them the hell up with Banelings, just make sure you get Baneling speed trained.
Otherwise go Roach/Hydra/Viper. Especially if you see they are mech you typically want Roach/Hydra/Viper.
If you see they start massing tanks instead of going tank heavy, you have two options. You can either get Overlord Drops if you have Overlord Speed researched already, and drop some blings/roaches on top of the tanks. Or if you have the time you can try to tech to Broodlords and it will become a micro battle where you have to make sure you blind all thors and focus fire them with ground units while taking out the Tanks with the BL.
But Roach/Hydra/Viper is a much stronger "base" composition in HotS than it was in WoL. Muta - while performed well can do some huge damage - has many more weaknesses and longer tech switches if you need to get out of it. You need to play a bit more wisely if you want to use Mutas now, even with their buffs.
so sad that lings are kinda useless in zvt T.T and i miss my muta ling bling play in wol i mean it was dynamic and mobil and more of a micro battle vs terran now it is just mass roach xD
They aren't useless, but they definitely arent the go-to unit at all times.
They are still really strong if you use them in the right situations. Even if they go Hellbats, remember they are some of the less mobile units, so that makes the enemy more vulnerable to runbys.
On February 15 2013 04:51 OneObsession wrote: it is not just that hellbats hard counter lings also the widow mines hard counter lings and perhaps mutas i dont know for sure
You are right. Going pure lings you will die to certain timings because lings absolutely blow zvt if there are hellbats/widow mines. You definitely need roaches out and what not or you will just die to simple bio + some hellbat pushes.
On February 15 2013 04:51 OneObsession wrote: it is not just that hellbats hard counter lings also the widow mines hard counter lings and perhaps mutas i dont know for sure
You are right. Going pure lings you will die to certain timings because lings absolutely blow zvt if there are hellbats/widow mines. You definitely need roaches out and what not or you will just die to simple bio + some hellbat pushes.
Banelings completely demolish both the units you mentioned, don't forget that, while Lings are weaker, Banelings are much more powerful if they are using the new units.
On February 15 2013 04:51 OneObsession wrote: it is not just that hellbats hard counter lings also the widow mines hard counter lings and perhaps mutas i dont know for sure
You are right. Going pure lings you will die to certain timings because lings absolutely blow zvt if there are hellbats/widow mines. You definitely need roaches out and what not or you will just die to simple bio + some hellbat pushes.
Banelings completely demolish both the units you mentioned, don't forget that, while Lings are weaker, Banelings are much more powerful if they are using the new units.
Banelings get 1 shot by widow mines dude, and hellbats have fairly big unit size and if the terran does some good splitting then banelings are EXTREMELY cost inefficient.
But you were probably being sarcastic, or you havent played HotS ZvT yet.
On February 15 2013 04:51 OneObsession wrote: it is not just that hellbats hard counter lings also the widow mines hard counter lings and perhaps mutas i dont know for sure
You are right. Going pure lings you will die to certain timings because lings absolutely blow zvt if there are hellbats/widow mines. You definitely need roaches out and what not or you will just die to simple bio + some hellbat pushes.
Banelings completely demolish both the units you mentioned, don't forget that, while Lings are weaker, Banelings are much more powerful if they are using the new units.
Banelings get 1 shot by widow mines dude, and hellbats have fairly big unit size and if the terran does some good splitting then banelings are EXTREMELY cost inefficient.
But you were probably being sarcastic, or you havent played HotS ZvT yet.
Not being sarcastic, and been playing HotS for awhile.
Banelings w/ speed blow up Widows (assuming you have detection) before they trigger, and they work very well on Hellbats. You just need bane speed and its a massacre.
I've been using Bane/Roach/Hydra as a core early-mid composition and It's not a problem until they start reaching critical mass of tanks.
is this true? if I have detection I can just roll banelings over the mines and they wont have time to detonate? Because I was having alot of trouble engaging a bio army with more than a handful of mines mixed in and was wondering what the correct response was.
On February 15 2013 10:33 ultrakiss wrote: is this true? if I have detection I can just roll banelings over the mines and they wont have time to detonate? Because I was having alot of trouble engaging a bio army with more than a handful of mines mixed in and was wondering what the correct response was.
Three banes kill a window mine. Off creep, a bane will touch a widow mine right as the mine fires its missile. You can get the mine before the missile fires if you manually detonate the bane. On creep, the bane will pop the widow mine before it can fire.
In practice, heavy bane play is nice in that even if the widow mine pops, you're at least guaranteed to kill the mines as the banes will get on top of them before they die.
Does anybody here scout the Terran's base to see if he's still running a reactor factory?
I can't count how many times I've seen zergs go pure roach / hydra vs bio and then die in a fire because they can't defend their creep and their base, and then can't fight the army because they have marauders. Honestly, you need gas units more than ever to defend against millennium medivacs, and mine splash works both ways if you flank instead of just a-moving a glob of lings head-on.
On February 15 2013 14:02 Ooshmagoosh wrote: Does anybody here scout the Terran's base to see if he's still running a reactor factory?
I can't count how many times I've seen zergs go pure roach / hydra vs bio and then die in a fire because they can't defend their creep and their base, and then can't fight the army because they have marauders. Honestly, you need gas units more than ever to defend against millennium medivacs, and mine splash works both ways if you flank instead of just a-moving a glob of lings head-on.
I've fit Overlord speed in my build order most the time lately, and it's actually working out quite a bit better than I expected. I end up going Roach/Hydra/Bane, and with that combo you have time to prepare and counter nearly any aggression that comes at you in the early game, as long as you don't let yourself get out macroed.
In HotS it seems I cant select my larvae individually, for instance to hotkey them before building something or do use the one closest to a mineral platch. I can only select eggs and hotkey them. This is different from in WoL. Have no idea why it was changed, it's annoying.
Does anybody know if I can turn this off?
I have already turned of "can't select enemy units" etc but it does not effect larvae selection.
On February 16 2013 04:10 LoveTool wrote: In HotS it seems I cant select my larvae individually, for instance to hotkey them before building something or do use the one closest to a mineral platch. I can only select eggs and hotkey them. This is different from in WoL. Have no idea why it was changed, it's annoying.
Does anybody know if I can turn this off?
I have already turned of "can't select enemy units" etc but it does not effect larvae selection.
Go to options there is one option about selecting individual larva or not.
Haven't tried using banes against mines but won't the splash make them really ineffective? Even I kill the mine and some marines or firebats won't the splash from the mines be even worse than tanks? banelings will probably still be a main unit in ZvT but good mine placement will make them hard to micro... Might be good in the end that Zerg gets more micro.
What is the Ideal late game (20min+) unit composition for ZvZ? I know it used to be Roach/ Hydra/ Infestor, but with the addition of the new units, would it affect it at all? I ask because I have started to use Catz's Queen + SH + Nydus push... But then i just have no clue where to go from there! Cheers TL! ~Dizzy
On February 17 2013 10:42 Dizzywitch wrote: What is the Ideal late game (20min+) unit composition for ZvZ? I know it used to be Roach/ Hydra/ Infestor, but with the addition of the new units, would it affect it at all? I ask because I have started to use Catz's Queen + SH + Nydus push... But then i just have no clue where to go from there! Cheers TL! ~Dizzy
I have only gotten to to super lategame in ZvZ once so far but I think you should aim ultra/queen/muta or brood. If you can get air superiority you can start getting some broods. The match up is very fragile right now, you can make huge swings in army composition after close battles and go at your opponent wit a air superiority or army superiority and just ignore the air for a short time. What I feel is the most important right now is to establish mapcontroll with multitasking no matter what army style you go for. keep your enemy contained and keep eyes all over the map so you don't miss any counter attacks as it will be a war for expansions. It is a very hard to straight up kill your opponent in ZvZ you have to out live him.
On February 17 2013 14:16 Zerum wrote: I have only gotten to to super lategame in ZvZ once so far but I think you should aim ultra/queen/muta or brood. If you can get air superiority you can start getting some broods. The match up is very fragile right now, you can make huge swings in army composition after close battles and go at your opponent wit a air superiority or army superiority and just ignore the air for a short time. What I feel is the most important right now is to establish mapcontroll with multitasking no matter what army style you go for. keep your enemy contained and keep eyes all over the map so you don't miss any counter attacks as it will be a war for expansions. It is a very hard to straight up kill your opponent in ZvZ you have to out live him.
The last 2 lategame ZvZ's I've had ended with my opponent going Ultras, and me getting Broodlords out just in the nick of time, at which he didn't have time to tech switch to take them out before they slowly moved over his base.
It does seem to get to late game easier though. Mutas haven't been as efficient either, 2 Spores cover the harass perfectly, and by the time they reach critical mass you can just push their base with Hydras and they will be forced to defend.
You are not supposed to go pure muta. Even more so if your opponent doesn't go muta. When I have been against a heavy ground army I have gone fore big ling/bling armies with my muta and I always get upgrades for melee/carapace. You also get the attack upgrade instead carapace on your mutas when against a ground army. It can be a bit hard to make sure your blings hit the hydras and you have to spread your mutas so not all get caught in a fungal. You must also play very aggressive when you go mutas. It is not that important that you do damage as long as you force spores and can expand behind it but you have to push his army back as son as he tries to move out or setup good flanks and burrows.
On February 17 2013 14:16 Zerum wrote: I have only gotten to to super lategame in ZvZ once so far but I think you should aim ultra/queen/muta or brood. If you can get air superiority you can start getting some broods. The match up is very fragile right now, you can make huge swings in army composition after close battles and go at your opponent wit a air superiority or army superiority and just ignore the air for a short time. What I feel is the most important right now is to establish mapcontroll with multitasking no matter what army style you go for. keep your enemy contained and keep eyes all over the map so you don't miss any counter attacks as it will be a war for expansions. It is a very hard to straight up kill your opponent in ZvZ you have to out live him.
The last 2 lategame ZvZ's I've had ended with my opponent going Ultras, and me getting Broodlords out just in the nick of time, at which he didn't have time to tech switch to take them out before they slowly moved over his base.
It does seem to get to late game easier though. Mutas haven't been as efficient either, 2 Spores cover the harass perfectly, and by the time they reach critical mass you can just push their base with Hydras and they will be forced to defend.
mutas are more to prevent them from getting 3 bases easily and stop temf rom ever taking a 4th plus the extra damage on spores isnt a big deal once your ball is big enough to make spores evaportate
On February 17 2013 14:16 Zerum wrote: I have only gotten to to super lategame in ZvZ once so far but I think you should aim ultra/queen/muta or brood. If you can get air superiority you can start getting some broods. The match up is very fragile right now, you can make huge swings in army composition after close battles and go at your opponent wit a air superiority or army superiority and just ignore the air for a short time. What I feel is the most important right now is to establish mapcontroll with multitasking no matter what army style you go for. keep your enemy contained and keep eyes all over the map so you don't miss any counter attacks as it will be a war for expansions. It is a very hard to straight up kill your opponent in ZvZ you have to out live him.
The last 2 lategame ZvZ's I've had ended with my opponent going Ultras, and me getting Broodlords out just in the nick of time, at which he didn't have time to tech switch to take them out before they slowly moved over his base.
It does seem to get to late game easier though. Mutas haven't been as efficient either, 2 Spores cover the harass perfectly, and by the time they reach critical mass you can just push their base with Hydras and they will be forced to defend.
mutas are more to prevent them from getting 3 bases easily and stop temf rom ever taking a 4th plus the extra damage on spores isnt a big deal once your ball is big enough to make spores evaportate
The timings on that is screwy now. By the time the Mutas are out you can easily have your bases ready, spores up, some Hydras as backup, and an upgrade lead on the Hydras at least 1/1 by then. Even if you stick to 2 bases instead of three (even though you can normally take 3 early safely) you can beat 3 bases of Mutas due to the gas difference. Just having Hydras usually discourage the Muta play and bring you ahead, and if not force an attack on the enemy and they HAVE to use the Mutas for defense, or else they lose.
Has anyone found a hellbat-safe opening that transitions well into 3base muta?
I either end up with way to many roaches from 2 bases, that delay my muta production waaay to much. So much that it isn't even worth going mutas at all.
Or i have a very weak zergling + spinecrawler defense, that can safe a lot of gas for sure, but is very risky to die against a hellbat+marine push (or drop).
On February 19 2013 20:07 reapsen wrote: Has anyone found a hellbat-safe opening that transitions well into 3base muta?
I either end up with way to many roaches from 2 bases, that delay my muta production waaay to much. So much that it isn't even worth going mutas at all.
Or i have a very weak zergling + spinecrawler defense, that can safe a lot of gas for sure, but is very risky to die against a hellbat+marine push (or drop).
Didn't try it, but maybe open with Banelings instead of Roaches? Hellbats still take extra damage from Banelings, same as Marines, since they are all light. So you can go as you described, Lings and Spine Crawlers, but add a bit of Banelings in the mix, and you can always add more if you scout the timing attack.
On February 19 2013 20:07 reapsen wrote: Has anyone found a hellbat-safe opening that transitions well into 3base muta?
I either end up with way to many roaches from 2 bases, that delay my muta production waaay to much. So much that it isn't even worth going mutas at all.
Or i have a very weak zergling + spinecrawler defense, that can safe a lot of gas for sure, but is very risky to die against a hellbat+marine push (or drop).
Didn't try it, but maybe open with Banelings instead of Roaches? Hellbats still take extra damage from Banelings, same as Marines, since they are all light. So you can go as you described, Lings and Spine Crawlers, but add a bit of Banelings in the mix, and you can always add more if you scout the timing attack.
I've managed to handle this with lings / banes / and spines with good creep spread. Also I've been setting up a trap where I leave enough space for their 6-8 hellions to run into my base just to get surrounded by lings / banes. Most Terran can't pass up this good opportunity and shoot for it. After the early stages I tech switch to muta to drop tank / hellbat numbers and horras as I secure a 4th and transition into swarm hosts. Swarm hosts can handle mech well as long as siege numbers are not in huge numbers. With the last transition into viper / Ultra to help pull thors and tank into locus. Its been working pretty well for the most part, still working out the exact timings tho.
I find this transition better for a few reasons.
1.) Roach hydra is very good and strong in the mid game, however you have little way to reduce tank numbers if the Terran are smart, and you have little to no way to horass other then drops. Without reduction of tank numbers the end game gets ugly as a good terran will mix in a few ravens and thors with 7+ seige. The Ravens prevent hydra's from shooting cutting out a LARGE number of your DPS while siege rape your roach hydra line.
2.) If you upgrade your melee and carapace with the plan to finally transition into Ultra I find it gives more tech switch abilities. For instance since your muta will be forcing turrets and droping hellbat / tank numbers locus and ultra will be more effective in the final switch. Plus if you see the terran is going no vikings because he doesn't think a BL switch will happen you can quickly transition into Broodlords and your broodlings are 3-3 cracklings to help reduce tank numbers or break Terran defensive lines, then switch back to a ling bane ultra or whatever other composition is required. I've even had games where I had broodlord, swarmhost, ling ultra to clean up the last wave of terran units which worked out well because I was spawning a sick amount of free units
I find this effective because vs Mech there is no 1 unit composition answer per say, its about constant trading and tech switching to have the best unit composition to match his at the time. Hope this helps
On February 20 2013 07:35 SirPsychoMantis wrote: Has anyone tried using the pre-lair burrow for anything yet? Even cheesy, moderately effective builds I'd be interested to hear.
I have tried using it in ZvZ for a pretty lame trick -- get burrow, speedling run-by, burrow pairs of lings here and there in the corner of their base, then wait for a little bit, unburrow them, morph banelings, and blow up their drones.
I don't think it's actually a good tactic at all, but it also allows you to burrow a ling at their 3rd to deny that and use burrowed banelings to defend yourself against later ling aggression.
On February 19 2013 20:07 reapsen wrote: Has anyone found a hellbat-safe opening that transitions well into 3base muta?
I either end up with way to many roaches from 2 bases, that delay my muta production waaay to much. So much that it isn't even worth going mutas at all.
Or i have a very weak zergling + spinecrawler defense, that can safe a lot of gas for sure, but is very risky to die against a hellbat+marine push (or drop).
Didn't try it, but maybe open with Banelings instead of Roaches? Hellbats still take extra damage from Banelings, same as Marines, since they are all light. So you can go as you described, Lings and Spine Crawlers, but add a bit of Banelings in the mix, and you can always add more if you scout the timing attack.
I've managed to handle this with lings / banes / and spines with good creep spread. Also I've been setting up a trap where I leave enough space for their 6-8 hellions to run into my base just to get surrounded by lings / banes. Most Terran can't pass up this good opportunity and shoot for it. After the early stages I tech switch to muta to drop tank / hellbat numbers and horras as I secure a 4th and transition into swarm hosts. Swarm hosts can handle mech well as long as siege numbers are not in huge numbers. With the last transition into viper / Ultra to help pull thors and tank into locus. Its been working pretty well for the most part, still working out the exact timings tho.
I find this transition better for a few reasons.
1.) Roach hydra is very good and strong in the mid game, however you have little way to reduce tank numbers if the Terran are smart, and you have little to no way to horass other then drops. Without reduction of tank numbers the end game gets ugly as a good terran will mix in a few ravens and thors with 7+ seige. The Ravens prevent hydra's from shooting cutting out a LARGE number of your DPS while siege rape your roach hydra line.
2.) If you upgrade your melee and carapace with the plan to finally transition into Ultra I find it gives more tech switch abilities. For instance since your muta will be forcing turrets and droping hellbat / tank numbers locus and ultra will be more effective in the final switch. Plus if you see the terran is going no vikings because he doesn't think a BL switch will happen you can quickly transition into Broodlords and your broodlings are 3-3 cracklings to help reduce tank numbers or break Terran defensive lines, then switch back to a ling bane ultra or whatever other composition is required. I've even had games where I had broodlord, swarmhost, ling ultra to clean up the last wave of terran units which worked out well because I was spawning a sick amount of free units
I find this effective because vs Mech there is no 1 unit composition answer per say, its about constant trading and tech switching to have the best unit composition to match his at the time. Hope this helps
Would you mind sharing a replay? I need to completely relearn zvt and your style sounds very cool.
On February 20 2013 07:35 SirPsychoMantis wrote: Has anyone tried using the pre-lair burrow for anything yet? Even cheesy, moderately effective builds I'd be interested to hear.
If you delay a 7RR or 5RR cheese, you can boost with early burrow in ZvZ or ZvP. It gets micro intense, as you have to single burrow roaches, just like blink stalkers or in that micro trainers.
Oh my fucking GOD ! How the fuck do u finish obnoxius protosses who decides to camp with 200 maxed tempest / void ray / HT army behind one million cannons in a corner????? I was so far ahead... At the end I realized he was not going to quit, he said he could kill me after some time with his tempest.... what could I do to win??? He was slowly killing my spines / spores .. I had a bank of 8k and could make the game least for like 3 more hours but decided to suicide my army and lost.. (I would have lost anyway after about 3 hours as he would chop down my stuff with his tempests)
On February 19 2013 20:07 reapsen wrote: Has anyone found a hellbat-safe opening that transitions well into 3base muta?
I either end up with way to many roaches from 2 bases, that delay my muta production waaay to much. So much that it isn't even worth going mutas at all.
Or i have a very weak zergling + spinecrawler defense, that can safe a lot of gas for sure, but is very risky to die against a hellbat+marine push (or drop).
Didn't try it, but maybe open with Banelings instead of Roaches? Hellbats still take extra damage from Banelings, same as Marines, since they are all light. So you can go as you described, Lings and Spine Crawlers, but add a bit of Banelings in the mix, and you can always add more if you scout the timing attack.
I've managed to handle this with lings / banes / and spines with good creep spread. Also I've been setting up a trap where I leave enough space for their 6-8 hellions to run into my base just to get surrounded by lings / banes. Most Terran can't pass up this good opportunity and shoot for it. After the early stages I tech switch to muta to drop tank / hellbat numbers and horras as I secure a 4th and transition into swarm hosts. Swarm hosts can handle mech well as long as siege numbers are not in huge numbers. With the last transition into viper / Ultra to help pull thors and tank into locus. Its been working pretty well for the most part, still working out the exact timings tho.
I find this transition better for a few reasons.
1.) Roach hydra is very good and strong in the mid game, however you have little way to reduce tank numbers if the Terran are smart, and you have little to no way to horass other then drops. Without reduction of tank numbers the end game gets ugly as a good terran will mix in a few ravens and thors with 7+ seige. The Ravens prevent hydra's from shooting cutting out a LARGE number of your DPS while siege rape your roach hydra line.
2.) If you upgrade your melee and carapace with the plan to finally transition into Ultra I find it gives more tech switch abilities. For instance since your muta will be forcing turrets and droping hellbat / tank numbers locus and ultra will be more effective in the final switch. Plus if you see the terran is going no vikings because he doesn't think a BL switch will happen you can quickly transition into Broodlords and your broodlings are 3-3 cracklings to help reduce tank numbers or break Terran defensive lines, then switch back to a ling bane ultra or whatever other composition is required. I've even had games where I had broodlord, swarmhost, ling ultra to clean up the last wave of terran units which worked out well because I was spawning a sick amount of free units
I find this effective because vs Mech there is no 1 unit composition answer per say, its about constant trading and tech switching to have the best unit composition to match his at the time. Hope this helps
Would you mind sharing a replay? I need to completely relearn zvt and your style sounds very cool.
Sure thing, when I get home today I'll try and post a replay for you. If you play on the NA server at all let me know and I can do some custom games with people and show you.
I've also been playing around with Ling, Bane > into Swarm hosts > Into Ultra Viper or other transitions when facing mech. This was due to a game where the terran went heavy mines and kept killing all my muta / lings with them. The Swarm Hosts where used specifically to just contain while I took 4th/5th and teched to ultra and other transitions required to prevent his 4th.
On February 21 2013 04:52 Siggeh wrote: Oh my fucking GOD ! How the fuck do u finish obnoxius protosses who decides to camp with 200 maxed tempest / void ray / HT army behind one million cannons in a corner????? I was so far ahead... At the end I realized he was not going to quit, he said he could kill me after some time with his tempest.... what could I do to win??? He was slowly killing my spines / spores .. I had a bank of 8k and could make the game least for like 3 more hours but decided to suicide my army and lost.. (I would have lost anyway after about 3 hours as he would chop down my stuff with his tempests)
I'm GM in hots, this dude was top masters.....if it matters. (Master in WoL tho)
Edit: sorry if I'm being mean, but this was like the first time I was close to take down a skytoss player..... then he decides to do this shit T_T
Edit2: btw anyone who suggests brood lords deserves a kick in his butt.
I'm no pro, but why didn't you kill him at the 15 minute mark. Only had stalkers and a handful of phoenix. Felt like ling/bane/muta should have just destroyed him.
Edit: He had 4 phoenix, 21 stalkers. You had 2k minerals 1k gas. I think you could have took that. Edit: 25 minute mark he was focusing on pure tempest, you destroyede his collosus, i feel like hydra/viper/ultra should be able to deal w/ templar/stalker/tempest -> ultras to tank -> vipers to pull back tempest -> hydras clean up tempest and just keep replenishing from there. You had the bank.
Edit: You seemed like you tried to do that, but corruptors get destroyed by void rays now, try hydra instead of corruptor mixed with vipers in that ultra/swarm host composition and see if that helps.
On February 19 2013 20:07 reapsen wrote: Has anyone found a hellbat-safe opening that transitions well into 3base muta?
I either end up with way to many roaches from 2 bases, that delay my muta production waaay to much. So much that it isn't even worth going mutas at all.
Or i have a very weak zergling + spinecrawler defense, that can safe a lot of gas for sure, but is very risky to die against a hellbat+marine push (or drop).
Didn't try it, but maybe open with Banelings instead of Roaches? Hellbats still take extra damage from Banelings, same as Marines, since they are all light. So you can go as you described, Lings and Spine Crawlers, but add a bit of Banelings in the mix, and you can always add more if you scout the timing attack.
I've managed to handle this with lings / banes / and spines with good creep spread. Also I've been setting up a trap where I leave enough space for their 6-8 hellions to run into my base just to get surrounded by lings / banes. Most Terran can't pass up this good opportunity and shoot for it. After the early stages I tech switch to muta to drop tank / hellbat numbers and horras as I secure a 4th and transition into swarm hosts. Swarm hosts can handle mech well as long as siege numbers are not in huge numbers. With the last transition into viper / Ultra to help pull thors and tank into locus. Its been working pretty well for the most part, still working out the exact timings tho.
I find this transition better for a few reasons.
1.) Roach hydra is very good and strong in the mid game, however you have little way to reduce tank numbers if the Terran are smart, and you have little to no way to horass other then drops. Without reduction of tank numbers the end game gets ugly as a good terran will mix in a few ravens and thors with 7+ seige. The Ravens prevent hydra's from shooting cutting out a LARGE number of your DPS while siege rape your roach hydra line.
2.) If you upgrade your melee and carapace with the plan to finally transition into Ultra I find it gives more tech switch abilities. For instance since your muta will be forcing turrets and droping hellbat / tank numbers locus and ultra will be more effective in the final switch. Plus if you see the terran is going no vikings because he doesn't think a BL switch will happen you can quickly transition into Broodlords and your broodlings are 3-3 cracklings to help reduce tank numbers or break Terran defensive lines, then switch back to a ling bane ultra or whatever other composition is required. I've even had games where I had broodlord, swarmhost, ling ultra to clean up the last wave of terran units which worked out well because I was spawning a sick amount of free units
I find this effective because vs Mech there is no 1 unit composition answer per say, its about constant trading and tech switching to have the best unit composition to match his at the time. Hope this helps
Would you mind sharing a replay? I need to completely relearn zvt and your style sounds very cool.
Sure thing, when I get home today I'll try and post a replay for you. If you play on the NA server at all let me know and I can do some custom games with people and show you.
I've also been playing around with Ling, Bane > into Swarm hosts > Into Ultra Viper or other transitions when facing mech. This was due to a game where the terran went heavy mines and kept killing all my muta / lings with them. The Swarm Hosts where used specifically to just contain while I took 4th/5th and teched to ultra and other transitions required to prevent his 4th.
Sounds good, thanks. Doing games on NA should be no problem with global play too .
Alright I'm struggling, ZvT. Anyone have any replays of terrans going mech, taking little to no damage while taking their fourth and how to deal with that mid to late game situation as a zerg when they start transitioning into skyterran? Is there a way to deal with this before bc's?
The siege tanks and widow mines that support this makes it so difficult to engage. Vipers seem difficult to use when vikings are in play and PDD vs zerg is just .
I would love to check out some replays of Z v Mech where the game goes past 30 minutes.
On February 22 2013 18:55 Merikh wrote: Alright I'm struggling, ZvT. Anyone have any replays of terrans going mech, taking little to no damage while taking their fourth and how to deal with that mid to late game situation as a zerg when they start transitioning into skyterran? Is there a way to deal with this before bc's?
The siege tanks and widow mines that support this makes it so difficult to engage. Vipers seem difficult to use when vikings are in play and PDD vs zerg is just .
I would love to check out some replays of Z v Mech where the game goes past 30 minutes.
I have zero replays going past 30 minutes sorry, but I find the best plan is to kill them before they get to that death ball. Generally, when I see a meching player (which I scout with early O/l speed) I will drone like a beast up to 4 base saturation asap. Upgrading roach/hydra 1+/1+. Get drops and go for a huge drop if they don't move out. As soon as the drop finishes I remax on mutas, generally at this stage they are building zero thors because of all the ground force they are dealing with. When doing the drop make sure you try to target any thors you see. After muta ball switch back again into roach/hydra if needed but tbh, all of my mech games I destroy them with this tactic.
Here are two replays of me doing this strat, one of which is against a GM (if I remember correctly).
On February 22 2013 18:55 Merikh wrote: Alright I'm struggling, ZvT. Anyone have any replays of terrans going mech, taking little to no damage while taking their fourth and how to deal with that mid to late game situation as a zerg when they start transitioning into skyterran? Is there a way to deal with this before bc's?
The siege tanks and widow mines that support this makes it so difficult to engage. Vipers seem difficult to use when vikings are in play and PDD vs zerg is just .
I would love to check out some replays of Z v Mech where the game goes past 30 minutes.
Terran is played the same way throughout and I will not switch until a better method is found.
Vs. Mech Corrupter/Hydralisks/Oversteer will push the Viking's back and snipe mines (Hot key together, if you need to) Viper's move in with a quick blinding cloud on tanks Speed Banes vs Hellbats
When they get SkyTerran going..Corrupters with Infestors tends to work. Just make sure you position your battles well & his army is very immobile if it has Battle Cruisers. Ultralisks attacking his lines would delay his push.
What am i supposed to max out on vs very late game t or p? Anything i throw at lategame t or p just melts doing barely any damage. I end up leaving games with 10k or more resources banked, having all tech paths all upgrades but anything i build just gets destroyed.. I feel like i just have to do some lame aggression with t1/t2 units and end the game there before it gets to late game..
On February 23 2013 19:12 -iNko wrote: What am i supposed to max out on vs very late game t or p? Anything i throw at lategame t or p just melts doing barely any damage. I end up leaving games with 10k or more resources banked, having all tech paths all upgrades but anything i build just gets destroyed.. I feel like i just have to do some lame aggression with t1/t2 units and end the game there before it gets to late game..
Right now, every Zerg I see plays almost the same in the late game. 5-6 Ultras, a lot of Zerglings and Banelings, with few Vipers and ~10 Infestors. If he has committed a bit more to the Air(mixing Air and ground), you can add more Hydras and less Infestors. I barely see people using Brood Lords these days(to some effect), but you have to be able to re-max. Zerg is a lot more like in the Brood War days, where you aren't using the Deathball, but a tons of cheaper units(except the Ultras), where you throw them at the enemy to be able to deal damage, and then try to re-max.
Atm hots feels like playing wol against just better opponent races, cant realy allin them and they get insanely better lategame. Anyone figured how to use swarm host in macro game zvt or zvp (not allin)? And vipers seem to die ever time I engage to either feedbacks or thors. Other than viper's blight timing against mech it's hard to find anything new for zerg in hots.
It's hard to use lings at lategame or any point of game against T which kills me a lot inside.
On February 24 2013 03:53 Ryndika wrote: Atm hots feels like playing wol against just better opponent races, cant realy allin them and they get insanely better lategame. Anyone figured how to use swarm host in macro game zvt or zvp (not allin)? And vipers seem to die ever time I engage to either feedbacks or thors. Other than viper's blight timing against mech it's hard to find anything new for zerg in hots.
It's hard to use lings at lategame or any point of game against T which kills me a lot inside.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397186 You should check the VODs, those are Swarm Hosts games, where he use them as mid game army, and he is aggressive(or defensive) with them, while expanding and teching to Ultras/Brood Lords.
Blade also released like ~20 Replays against GM players, but they are from older versions, so I doubt that you will be able to see them.
I don't know, from what I've seen, Zerg is pretty different with the Infestor nerfs, and I like it a lot. I've seen a lot of strategies and unit compositions that you didn't see at all in the WoL.
8 out of 10 games i get rushed or cheezed, so now i prefer going speedling expand for better defenses. If i open with 14gas 14pool and expand at ~20supply, how behind will i end up against someone who takes fast expand? (for example zerg takes 15hatch 15pool, toss takes nexus first, terran takes cc first)
Is there someplace where I can find zerg build orders below 50 supply? Haven´t played sc2 for 7 months and I have no idea what im doing. Just throwing random stuff down and hoping for the best atm.
On February 24 2013 21:22 Altsa wrote: Is there someplace where I can find zerg build orders below 50 supply? Haven´t played sc2 for 7 months and I have no idea what im doing. Just throwing random stuff down and hoping for the best atm.
Stream vods are generally the best place to go.
Hyun streams (is listed right now), I stream (see signature if interested), Idra streams. Generally just go through the vods and write down the supply for build orders for a couple games in each matchup.
On February 24 2013 03:53 Ryndika wrote: Atm hots feels like playing wol against just better opponent races, cant realy allin them and they get insanely better lategame. Anyone figured how to use swarm host in macro game zvt or zvp (not allin)? And vipers seem to die ever time I engage to either feedbacks or thors. Other than viper's blight timing against mech it's hard to find anything new for zerg in hots.
It's hard to use lings at lategame or any point of game against T which kills me a lot inside.
Generally, swarm hosts are used as a gateway unit versus Protoss. They are the unit that allows zerg to constantly pressure protoss while expanding and teching up to hive tech.
That being said, I feel that versus non-stargate play Mutalisk is the better option. Map dependent, defending against swarm hosts with a sim city/3-4 collosus is too easy for the protoss player while he gets his air/collosus/gateway ball up on 3-4 bases. Mutalisks allow for the zerg to harass everywhere, whereas swarm hosts are concentrated in 1 area of assault. Additionally, mutalisks translate into the late game better than swarm hosts.
But remember: In games where the protoss player is all inning you, swarm hosts reign supreme. With their huge cost efficiency, swarm hosts are the way to go to defend gateway/gateway+robo all ins whereas the mutalisk player will struggle, a lot.
On February 20 2013 07:35 SirPsychoMantis wrote: Has anyone tried using the pre-lair burrow for anything yet? Even cheesy, moderately effective builds I'd be interested to hear.
Generally, a timing with burrow on hatchery is only used in ZvT (although sometimes in ZvP coupled with an early pool to further delay the expansion, but ussually not).
The build order: -15 hatchery -16 spawning pool -15 gas
2 queens upon the spawning pool completing. Start Roach warren when queens ~35% done. Begin burrow immediately after queens complete. Pre-prepare overlords for incoming 7-8 roaches. Remember, you're trying to force scans out of your opponent while harassing/attacking with roaches, so burrow micro weakened roaches (and move them back when the terran scans to prolong their lifespan as much as possible).
I don't really find burrow roach timings that effective - if the terran properly deals with them (widow mine + bunker or fast siege tank) it will place you very far behind. But then again, with how ridiculously hard ZvT is right now, it may be a good thing to try out.
ok guys how do you manage to not choke a kitten or even worse switch races going into hots? serious question, played 8 years of wc3 with undead and sticked to zerg through the darkest times of wol but hots is giving me serious nightmares in both zvp and zvt. dont even know where to start but honestly, current wol zerg seems stronger than hots zerg to me rofl
On February 26 2013 00:34 Tsubbi wrote: ok guys how do you manage to not choke a kitten or even worse switch races going into hots? serious question, played 8 years of wc3 with undead and sticked to zerg through the darkest times of wol but hots is giving me serious nightmares in both zvp and zvt. dont even know where to start but honestly, current wol zerg seems stronger than hots zerg to me rofl
Helps if you played WoL at release.
ZvT feels really hard, I have no idea what to do against many compositions. I'm going to have to relearn a lot of stuff. Bio+WM in particular feels really hard to beat for some reason.
ZvP late-game is really hard, but swarm hosts and speed hydras open up timings for zerg aggression so you can actually put some hurt on the protoss. It's definitively possible to prevent a skytoss ball from forming on many maps, and in general swarm hosts just make for interesting and fun play I feel.
Vipers are really key in ZvP/ZvT, so it makes a lot of sense to go for hive ASAP.
On February 26 2013 09:59 GGY0UMAKE wrote: What do you do vs Widows mines ???? they destory your economy and you cant have any early aggression need help
Basically have to blindly make roach defense and spores at this point vs terran,
Don't expect your roaches to even scare the terran though, it used to be that making roaches would force terran to worry about roach pressure but WM and siege tanks that start with siege remove any aggressive potential.
On February 26 2013 00:34 Tsubbi wrote: ok guys how do you manage to not choke a kitten or even worse switch races going into hots? serious question, played 8 years of wc3 with undead and sticked to zerg through the darkest times of wol but hots is giving me serious nightmares in both zvp and zvt. dont even know where to start but honestly, current wol zerg seems stronger than hots zerg to me rofl
Helps if you played WoL at release.
ZvT feels really hard, I have no idea what to do against many compositions. I'm going to have to relearn a lot of stuff. Bio+WM in particular feels really hard to beat for some reason.
ZvP late-game is really hard, but swarm hosts and speed hydras open up timings for zerg aggression so you can actually put some hurt on the protoss. It's definitively possible to prevent a skytoss ball from forming on many maps, and in general swarm hosts just make for interesting and fun play I feel.
Vipers are really key in ZvP/ZvT, so it makes a lot of sense to go for hive ASAP.
Roach hydra performs well against Bio compositions with widow mines. The general approach is to snipe the mines first as they try to burrow and obtain a good concave with your army while kiting hellbats if they're too close. Overall this comp trades well if T doesn't go tanks. As tanks start appearing on the field, start deploying vipers and build a couple of ultras to soak damage. As for ZvP, been running into a wall lately, so can't advise you there.
On February 26 2013 09:59 GGY0UMAKE wrote: What do you do vs Widows mines ???? they destory your economy and you cant have any early aggression need help
Hey can you provide a replay? I'm not sure what sort of problem you're having without analysing your build vs theirs. As for dealing with mine drops, the general approach is to obviously remove your workers from the site, send a ling to soak the shot, while you reposition your spore to detect it. You have a 40 second window to kill each mine. After the shot goes off, you should continue mining immediately. The 4 mines should have 4 kills in total if you did it right.
I've been playing a bit more and I've really taken a liking to the swarm host nidus attack. The holds I've seen against it are stargate openers, but I have started to incorporate more spores and queens in the build. Has anyone else been trying this out? What problems are you running in to?
Basic strategy I've been following is a regular 2 base opening with a tech to lair @100 gas and pump out swarm hosts and queens. Once you make the nidus, I'm not sure if you need both injecting queens, since swarm hosts are pretty expensive. Send the queens, SHs, and a few drones through and build the nidus in a safe place outside the enemy base. Follow up if you don't kill them is typically expand + spire since air and colo are the best ways to push back SHs.
On February 27 2013 03:22 SirPsychoMantis wrote: I've been playing a bit more and I've really taken a liking to the swarm host nidus attack. The holds I've seen against it are stargate openers, but I have started to incorporate more spores and queens in the build. Has anyone else been trying this out? What problems are you running in to?
Basic strategy I've been following is a regular 2 base opening with a tech to lair @100 gas and pump out swarm hosts and queens. Once you make the nidus, I'm not sure if you need both injecting queens, since swarm hosts are pretty expensive. Send the queens, SHs, and a few drones through and build the nidus in a safe place outside the enemy base. Follow up if you don't kill them is typically expand + spire since air and colo are the best ways to push back SHs.
So you're trying to go for a 2 base swarmhost/queen nydus allin?
Seems really fishy. I would think that off of 3 bases (it would hit ~ 2 minutes later) the attack would be much more powerful. I just don't see you having enough $$ (minerals and gas) to afford a good number of swarm hosts + constant queen production that are needed for such an attack.
On February 27 2013 03:22 SirPsychoMantis wrote: I've been playing a bit more and I've really taken a liking to the swarm host nidus attack. The holds I've seen against it are stargate openers, but I have started to incorporate more spores and queens in the build. Has anyone else been trying this out? What problems are you running in to?
Basic strategy I've been following is a regular 2 base opening with a tech to lair @100 gas and pump out swarm hosts and queens. Once you make the nidus, I'm not sure if you need both injecting queens, since swarm hosts are pretty expensive. Send the queens, SHs, and a few drones through and build the nidus in a safe place outside the enemy base. Follow up if you don't kill them is typically expand + spire since air and colo are the best ways to push back SHs.
So you're trying to go for a 2 base swarmhost/queen nydus allin?
Seems really fishy. I would think that off of 3 bases (it would hit ~ 2 minutes later) the attack would be much more powerful. I just don't see you having enough $$ (minerals and gas) to afford a good number of swarm hosts + constant queen production that are needed for such an attack.
Yeah I've been doing it as a 2 base all in to get a feel for the build, definitely feels a bit short on money but it has worked alright at a plat-diamond level. I think I may try a 3 base variant today with a better late game plan.
On February 26 2013 01:13 kmh wrote: Vipers are really key in ZvP/ZvT, so it makes a lot of sense to go for hive ASAP.
Would you compensate upgrades for Hive? Also what is the best compositions to stall until Hive, whenever I try Ling/Hydra into Swarm Hosts in ZvP I get hit with a timing Collosi Stalker Stargate timing and if I use Mutas to stall in ZvT, Widow Mines don't allow for harass/attacks which lets them build up for a strong midgame attack. Also tried mass Roach Hyun style ZvT and I get dropped to death even with units at each base What unit compositions are you guys using for each match up?
Unrelated question: In ZvZ Muta v Muta late game, is it better to mix in Corruptors for Corruption or just straight Muta?
On February 26 2013 01:13 kmh wrote: Vipers are really key in ZvP/ZvT, so it makes a lot of sense to go for hive ASAP.
Would you compensate upgrades for Hive? Also what is the best compositions to stall until Hive, whenever I try Ling/Hydra into Swarm Hosts in ZvP I get hit with a timing Collosi Stalker Stargate timing and if I use Mutas to stall in ZvT, Widow Mines don't allow for harass/attacks which lets them build up for a strong midgame attack. Also tried mass Roach Hyun style ZvT and I get dropped to death even with units at each base What unit compositions are you guys using for each match up?
Unrelated question: In ZvZ Muta v Muta late game, is it better to mix in Corruptors for Corruption or just straight Muta?
Right now, for Zvp Hydra ling Corruptor Swarm Host or Hydra Swarm Host ling is the best composition to stall until hive. Try not to make more than 20 hydras unless really needed to defend. Go hive after you have around 12--14 Swarm Hosts.
For ZvT, Ling Bling Hydra Roach or Ling Bling Mutalisks or Ling Roach Bling Swarm host or Ling Bling Roach Infestor is played often until hive. Try to use speedlings to stay under drops, keep your overlord spread to see incoming dropships if terran doesn't make vikings.
Zvz Muta late game, all your gas should be spent on muta and muta upgrades, unless you're both not engaging which is only if static defense is made. Ultralisks are the best late game units in ZvZ if mutalisks are excluded.
Just started playing HotS within the last week or so... I was masters in WoL and am currently Diamond in HotS as Z...
in my ZvT I've been playing around with a bo that can hold the reaper rush and applies some early pressure on the T if they didn't reaper rush. It does put you behind a bit in the early game but is an easy transition into meta-game.
Basic BO 9 Ovie 14 Gas (I wait until around 100 min) 13 Pool 15 Ovie 16 Queen 20 Roach Warren (when queen is about 60% done) 20 Ovie (Queue up burrow with first 100 gas) 20 7Roaches rallied to opponents base to pressure (burrow finishes as you make your way across the map) 34 ovie 34 expo
Note: Increase in number w/o explanation is drone build. Example: from 9 Ovie to 14 Gas you would build 5 drones. Don't forget to replace drone after dropping your Roach Warren.
Delaying the expo is the big concern with this build, but I've found that the pressure with burrow roaches seems to make up for the late expo. If T walls-in I focus the scvs down and burrow as needed (similar to blink stalkers where weak one is burrowed). If he expos and bunkers, walk past bunkers and force a lift (again focus fire scvs).
Against the 8/8reaper build, this bo will hold with an early queen and minimal non-mining time. The roach pressure afterward is solid, too and can often forces several scans.
Again, this isn't auto-win, but with the current state of ZvT I've had a lot of success with this build if microed properly.
I'd post some replays but I'm not at home currently, maybe I will post some later.
hi, im a platinum level zerg. and i had a question. so terrans like to get an early widow mine and place it at my possible expansions very early on. i then have to tech to lair in order to grab a third, so its super delayed. anyone have any experience with this? should i just blindly go 2 base muta or something?
On February 28 2013 23:49 partydude89 wrote: hi, im a platinum level zerg. and i had a question. so terrans like to get an early widow mine and place it at my possible expansions very early on. i then have to tech to lair in order to grab a third, so its super delayed. anyone have any experience with this? should i just blindly go 2 base muta or something?
Get a spore for widow mine detection near third and natural. Spread creep earlier, roaches or lings can take out the widow mines then. Lair timing should be in between 7-8min usually.
Just a quick question (sorry about putting it here, there doesn't seem to be a Simple Question Simple Answer thread for HotS), is there a compiled list of all WoL -> HotS changes, specifically the Zerg ones? I really haven't been keeping up with it, but am getting more hyped as we get closer to release, and while there's plenty of info on the new units, I can't seem to find a central location about the other changes (tech tree changes, upgrades, etc).
On March 02 2013 02:04 Requizen wrote: Just a quick question (sorry about putting it here, there doesn't seem to be a Simple Question Simple Answer thread for HotS), is there a compiled list of all WoL -> HotS changes, specifically the Zerg ones? I really haven't been keeping up with it, but am getting more hyped as we get closer to release, and while there's plenty of info on the new units, I can't seem to find a central location about the other changes (tech tree changes, upgrades, etc).
On March 02 2013 02:04 Requizen wrote: Just a quick question (sorry about putting it here, there doesn't seem to be a Simple Question Simple Answer thread for HotS), is there a compiled list of all WoL -> HotS changes, specifically the Zerg ones? I really haven't been keeping up with it, but am getting more hyped as we get closer to release, and while there's plenty of info on the new units, I can't seem to find a central location about the other changes (tech tree changes, upgrades, etc).
Hey guys, are HotS replays still watchable despite the beta being down? I'm trying to do some starcraft cramming before the game is launch just so I get a good idea of what people are doing. Gonna find all the VODs I can and review them, if anyones interested in watching them too let me know. I'll probably be able to point out some good key games to study after going through entire VODs lol.
Yo mates, havent been playing sc2 for nearly 2 years and coming back atm. Downside is that i have NO IDEA of HOTS buildorders so could someone of you link me some guides or BO's ? (Was random diamond and protoss master)
I have so much trouble with group hotkeys in Zerg. I generally follow this principle:
1 - generic ground army (lings, roaches, hydras, ultras) 2 - banelings or other specialty unit 3 - casters 4 - mutas 5 - overseer and/or corruptors 6 - hatcheries 7-9 ? 0 queens
My biggest issue is that when I get attacked at a certain base, I don't have a way to make a fast and smart response. Either I send all of one type of unit at them, or I have to go find my units and carve off a big enough piece to deal with it without committing my whole army.
I can never find a good way to manage the units in my hotkeys in order to keep: 1) a reasonable response to threats/harassment 2) the ability to micro if a major battle happens 3) the ability to scout effectively while macro'ing
On March 13 2013 02:51 fdsdfg wrote: I have so much trouble with group hotkeys in Zerg. I generally follow this principle:
1 - generic ground army (lings, roaches, hydras, ultras) 2 - banelings or other specialty unit 3 - casters 4 - mutas 5 - overseer and/or corruptors 6 - hatcheries 7-9 ? 0 queens
My biggest issue is that when I get attacked at a certain base, I don't have a way to make a fast and smart response. Either I send all of one type of unit at them, or I have to go find my units and carve off a big enough piece to deal with it without committing my whole army.
I can never find a good way to manage the units in my hotkeys in order to keep: 1) a reasonable response to threats/harassment 2) the ability to micro if a major battle happens 3) the ability to scout effectively while macro'ing
Any advice on some things I can try to implement?
I use
1- Main Ground Army 2- Mutas/Bnlings/Corruptors (But never mixed) + Overseers 3- Casters (Haven`t reached yet a game with Ifestors+Vypers, so i really have to fix that) 4-Army/Creep Queens (Hatch queens if no extra queens) 5-Hatcheries 6/7 - Tech Buildings or Specific buildings 8-OL/Oseers
I've realized that just a bunch of kings 6-8 in patrol mode in bases + SC it's enought for Harass drops. If a big drops comes, you should be able to spot it and anyway you should move part of your main army/queens
For early scouting i use 2 and 3 for early OL, and ind mid game/late game random OL Manually selected or Suicidal Lings/Changelings
Usually the only harass that needs units moving involves Warps Prisms and MedVacs, rest of Harassment should'nt go in your base if you have map control imo.
I aslo noticed that triying to too much control group sometimes makes it harder, so i just try to keep and eye on minimap to have time to select f/e a group of kings/queens/hydras to deny any drop.
Last thing, when in i big engagement i almost never use control groups. just manually positioning and control+click to select same type of units in case of retreate or a-move, i find it easier for me. ^^
Hey, I'm someone who played a few games of the HotS beta every now and then but never really got a grasp of the meta or how to play the matchups. I'm also out of practice as I didn't care to play WoL anymore and I'm only a platinum league player so I'm not that good to begin with (lol). Anyway, I was hoping someone could give me advice on basic safe builds/strategies/approaches to the game for each matchup before I really jump into the ladder, as I'm pretty intimidated by it at the moment.
Hey All! I'm a Zerg player and I'm struggling with early aggression from protoss. Zealot, stalker + mothership combo. Any buildorder or tips how I can fend that off?