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[G] TangSC's Drop-Style ZvP

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TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1852 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 22:22:54
December 22 2012 20:11 GMT
#1
TangSC's Drop-Style ZvP

[image loading]

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen of Team Liquid! I'd like to welcome you to a guide on an alternative style of ZvP called Drop-Style.

I've had a lot of fun writing guides since the release of SC2, focusing on a wide-range of styles. But of all the styles and all the guides, this one is easily the one that I'm most excited to release. I actually feel contained using only words to describe how excited I am about this, I need balloons and trumpets and shit. It may sound extremely nerdy, but I'm passionately invested in this style of play - it has been my pet project for over two years and I absolutely love playing and teaching it.

The basic concept behind Drop-Style is a multi-pronged Zergling/Baneling drop at 8:15 that allows you to be the first aggressor against Protoss who Nexus-First, FFE, or 1-Gate Expand. I will freely admit that years ago when I first devised this build, it was intended to be an all-in and I used to go for the jugular by streaming Lings and Banelings relentlessly. But as I practiced more, I gradually refined the timings, and found that the initial investment of the drop only delays macro by about 2 minutes. That means you can still max out with roaches by 13 minutes! It can absolutely be a stepping-stone into the midgame, because you can use that aggression, scouting information, and map-control to transition in a number of ways (Mutalisks, Hydralisk Doom-Drops, Roach Max-Outs).

Now to the supporters and upholders of true and genuine macro-Zerg: Do not come at me with pitch-forks and torches. I'm not here to step on your toes. I'm not arguing that Drop-Style is better than pure macro styles, or that it should replace 3-Hatch openings. But I think we can agree that it has value for Zerg players, and I encourage readers to keep an open mind and incorporate this style and here's why. . .

Reasons to use Drop-Style:
.
+ Show Spoiler +
It's fun. It's my favourite style of play, and I know you will enjoy it too. It will put a smile on your face and most of us could use that.

It's challenging. This style will not be easy for new players, and I expect even some highly skilled players will struggle a bit at first. Multi-tasking and decision-making are constantly taxed, because you're always out on the map. There is no "sitting time" where APM isn't important, even in the early stages you must be active to deny scouting while optimizing your economy. You can't focus only on the execution of your drop and transition, you have to continue droning and injecting - something I seem to forget in the tutorial replays -_-

It's effective. We're not exactly fitting the mould of standard ZvP, but that's not always a bad thing! Well-timed builds can be very effective even if they are unusual. I'm sure some will be quick to judge this as a gimmicky or cheesy strategy, and we could argue all day about whether that's true without getting anywhere. Let's skip that argument, because whether drop-style is a viable long-term build or simply an unorthodox all-in, you should try it.

It's adaptable. I've had a lot of fun experimenting with variations and transitions (can't wait for Swarm Hosts), but I've only scratched the surface in terms of potential. You guys all play Zerg - or at least you should! - and you all have unique takes on the game. I think some of you will have brilliant ideas on how to adapt and transition in response to what your opponent does, and I really hope that those who don't often use aggressive openings will mix it up and try it anyway. It is natural to be a little hesitant about using low-economy tech builds, but you'll find that the early Overlord drop presents unique opportunities and advantages. So let's find out how to make the best use of them. I'll tell you what I already know, but I need to hear about what you find out too.


Stream Tutorials:

+ Show Spoiler +
The best way to learn this style and get a feel for the variations and transitions is to watch the following tutorial videos. They focus on the timings of the first drop, denying scouting, and transitioning, but each video has general, helpful tips and tricks that apply to any style.

Drop-Style ZvP Tutorial 1 (Featured Game vs LiquidHero) (Links to Part 2 and 3 can be found in the comments)

Drop-Style ZvP Tutorial 2 (Featured Game vs EGiNcontroLRC)

Drop-Style ZvP Tutorial 3 (Featured Games vs Daisy/Sase)


Replays:

+ Show Spoiler +
Massive Drop-Style ZvP Replay Pack
http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/c/1790707Anko (Drop-Style + Mutalisk)
http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/c/1616654 Placid (Drop Style + Hydra/Creep Highway)
http://www.twitch.tv/tangsc/c/1616648# uGpFabled (Drop-Style against Gateway All-In)
http://drop.sc/284621 EGiNcontrLRC (Drop-Style + Mutalisk + Roach-Max)
http://drop.sc/284622Daisy ESCDaisy (Drop-Style + Hydra/Creep Highway)
http://drop.sc/284619 LiquidHerO (Drop-Style against Gateway All-In)
http://drop.sc/284620 KingSaSe (Drop-Style + Mutalisk + Roach-Max)


The Core Build Order:

+ Show Spoiler +
The core build order up can stay the same up until 40 supply regardless of what your opponent does (assuming he doesn't go early 2-Gate Zealot). I've included screenshots for all you visual learners, though all of this is covered in more detail in the tutorial videos.

9 Overlord
15 Gas
14 Pool
16 Overlord
16 Queen/Speed (First 100 Gas)
18-20 Zerglings (Do not remove Drones from Geyser

[image loading]

20-21 Drone
21 Expansion Hatchery (~3:50)
20 Lair (~4:15)

[image loading]

20-24 Drones (Fully Saturate Main + 1 Drone for Second Geyser)
24 Second Geyser
23 Overlord
23-26 Drones rallied into Second Geyser (use first inject). You should have 16 Drones mining Minerals 2/per patch with both Geysers filled by 5:15. Once you do, rally to the expansion minerals.

[image loading]

26-29 Drones rallied to expansion
29 Queen (Expansion)
31 Overlord Drop (~5:50 when Lair is done)

[image loading]

31-34 Drones (Optional Zerglings if he's pushing out with 1 Zealot 1 Stalker)
34 Overlord (Overlord Speed queued up at expansion so it starts when Queen finishes)
34-40 Drones
40 Baneling Nest (Replace Drone)

[image loading]


Transition 1 - "Light" Pressure into Quick Roach-Max (13 Minute Max-Out):

+ Show Spoiler +
There are endless variations available for the first drop, you can do anywhere from 16-30 Zerglings and 4-12 Banelings. I've provided a few options an overview to the style. "Light" pressure is 4 Banelings and 16 Speedlings (3 Overlords total) while "Heavy" pressure is 4 Banelings and 24 Speedlings (4 Overlords total). Believe me when I say there are "Super-Heavy" variations as well, but the focus of this guide is not to win with the first drop. Keep in mind these options can be mixed and matched, and adjusted to suit your personal play style.

To execute "Light" pressure for the earliest max-out transition, remove one Drone from each Geyser after Overlord drop. This way you can start an earlier third and you won't bank gas (remember to fill it back up once you saturate your expansion, though!). Continue droning to 44, then produce two Overlords.
[image loading]

Go from 44-52 with Speedlings (16 Zerglings, 2 Overlords full). Immediately start your third base (7:45).
[image loading]

Morph 4 Banelings and execute the multi-pronged drop at 8:15.
[image loading]

As you're dropping, your goal is to fully saturate your natural and third base so keep droning and producing Overlords.
[image loading]

Start your Roach Warren + Evolution Chamber, and get up to 4 Gas.
[image loading]

Get Roach +1/Speed with a total of 4-Geysers and 4-Hatcheries (Should sound very much like the Stephano-Style Roach Max).
[image loading]

By 12:45-13:00 you should be maxed with Roaches, +1, Speed, and with your Overlord upgrades ready to put on more multi-pronged aggression.
[image loading]


Transition 2 - "Heavy" Pressure into Mutalisk Harass (14 Minute Max-Out):

+ Show Spoiler +
See Replays against iNcontroL and KingSaSe.

Heavy pressure is 3 Overlords full of Speedlings instead of two. Cut Drones at 40 Supply and produce 1 Overlord. Go from 40-52 with Zerglings to do execute "heavy" drop pressure (24 Zerglings, 3 Overlords full). Execute the multi-pronged drop at 8:15:[image loading]

As you drop, you can continue droning, adding 2 Geysers, and building a Spire:[image loading]

Make sure you have supply when the Spire finishes, and start the +1 Air Attack (approx. 9:30). You should be fully saturated at your main/natural before producing any Mutalisks:
[image loading]

Once you've created 6-10 Mutalisks, start your third and start droning (if you're on top of your macro/multitasking, you can start the third before the Mutalisks:
[image loading]

As you pressure with Mutalisks, continue droning and start a Roach Warren + Evolution Chamber:
[image loading]

Once you've fully saturated the third base, start Roaches and Upgrades:[image loading]

Continue producing Roaches/Overlords until 200/200 - Then start the mayhem multipronged Roach pushes and drops. Make sure you have a 4th Hatchery:
[image loading]


Transition 3 - "Light" Pressure into Hydralisk Timing Attack (13:30 Max-Out):

+ Show Spoiler +
Execute the "Light Pressure" drop - See Transition 1, and replay against ESCDaisy.
[image loading]

Drone to Full-Saturation at expansion then start third hatchery and Hydralisk Den.
While Hydra Den builds, produce 6-8 Drones for your third and a couple of Overlords.
[image loading]

As the Den finishes, produce 8 Hydralisks (Optional to produce more if you want to all-in, but you'll need 3-4 Geysers if so.)
[image loading]

Produce as many Zerglings/Hydras as you like (Lots if he's attacking you or if you're doing a doom drop or creep highway timing).
[image loading]

Start a Roach Warren and Evolution chamber, and drone your third to full mineral saturation.
[image loading]

Once you reach 60-66 Drones, make sure you have a 4th or a macro hatch, make sure that you have a 4th or a macro hatch and that you're mining from 4-5 Geysers before starting Roach production.
[image loading]

13:30 - Roach/Hydra Max-Out
[image loading]


Scouting/Responding:

+ Show Spoiler +
You only need your first Overlord to scout Nexus-first or Forge FE to choose Drop-Style, and it works on any map. The timing of the drop (approx. 8:15) almost guarantees you'll be the first aggressor - even if he goes for a super-early Gateway all-in, he'll likely just be pushing as you drop his main/expansion. You don't need to scout his Gateway count or tech choice before the first drop.

As you drop, it's important to figure out your opponent's tech choice, with planned responses to each possibility. For example, you will always start droning at 52 with the goal of transitioning into some form of tech, but you may cut your droning or teching short if he's preparing to all-in you. On the other hand, if you suspect he plans to take a third after your drop, you may decide to drone harder. Sometimes, you may even find yourself extremely behind after the first drop, and in need of some desperation tactics.

Below I've outlined a few of my responses/options based on my own personal preference of relentless aggression with Roaches, Mutalisks, and/or Hydralisks, but I hope others will dabble in Late-Game transitions (Infestors, Macro, Upgrades, Spines, Broodlords). These are merely suggestions.

Generally speaking, if your first drop scouts that your opponent has . . .

Only Gateways (6+), you're in panic mode. If you execute the drop as soon as possible, worst case scenario you'll do some economic damage and force warp-ins at home - the goal is to delay their push as long as you can so that you can get a decent drone count before building defenses/units. You should have already been very active scouting for Proxy-Pylons in the early game with your first 4 Speedlings, and you should try maintain the Xel-Nagas and deny Proxy Pylons. You can't expect to hold a third, and it's actually best to put down 3-4 Spinecrawlers as you drop, and consider putting down a few more with Evolution Chambers in front of them. Both 2-base Hydralisk/Mutalisk transitions are effective, though you'll likely delay their production to get additional Spinecrawlers/Speedlings if he pushes out right away. (3rd/4th Gases shouldn't be rushed). His build is pretty all-in, and as long as you reach full 2-base saturation and still hold his timing, your tech-advantage should allow you to take a third and win the game.

Robo + Gateways, you are very fortunate and should do a lot of damage. You should also feel pretty safe, Immortal timings are delayed compared to Gateway all-ins, which gives you time to drone a bit harder while you drop and get your Mutalisks/third started at a reasonable time. His counter-attack options are limited, and you'll have more opportunities to keep contain and pressure with Mutalisks. Just keep an Overlord spewing creep at his third, and try to reach full 3-Base saturation before producing Roaches. Once you reach 60 Drones (fully saturated 3-Base Minerals / 4 Geysers), max-out on Roaches and trade armies constantly.

Twilight + Gateways, you should do some damage with your first drop because his blink won't quite be done. It's crucial to scout his Gateway count, but unfortunately it will usually be 4, which doesn't give you a clear read - he could take a third, or he could put down 3 more Gateways after your drop and go for a Blink Stalker all-in (See game against LiquidHerO). The best thing to do is plant an Overlord at his third, and make an educated guess. If you think he's going for a third, fully-saturate your third before producing Roaches. If you think he's going to all-in you, partially saturate your third and build Roaches/Speedlings earlier. It's a bit of a coinflip going Mutalisks against this build, but I'm starting to think earlier Roaches would work better against this particular Protoss opening. Hydralisks aren't very effective.

Single-Stargate + Gateways, you're in a bit of trouble but you're not hopeless. He's probably going to get out enough Zealots/Sentries to hold his main Nexus, and he's going to punish you by killing some of your Overlords. You may end up a bit behind, but even if you are, pull back your remaining Overlords and attempt a Spire and/or Hydralisk follow-up. It sounds bizaare, but 2-base Mutalisk/Hydralisk/Speedling with a creep-highway can be very effective (see game vs ESCDaisy). The most passive way to play this out would be to get either 6-8 Hydras or Corruptors out to defend Stargate pressure then power workers to full 3-base saturation, aiming for a reasonably timed Roach/Hydra or Roach/Corruptor maxout to kill his third. High-Risk, High-Reward strategies like Hydra Doom-Drops can pay off when you're very behind (i.e. minimal damage done with drop, 3-4 Overlords lost).

Double-Stargate, your drops should kill his main Nexus putting you way ahead. Then it's just a matter of getting enough Hydras to hold his counter all-in. Just keep tabs on whether he rebuilds the main Nexus, because if he does you'll need a third. Usually it's best to cancel Spire in this case, Hydralisks are where it's at.

Early Third, Late Gateways, you should kill your greedy opponent. Most Protoss aren't bold enough to blindly take a super-early third base against a Zerg with Speedlings and a late third, but it does happen. Any Nexus before 8:00 will severely delay Gateways, making it almost impossible to hold the drop. Still, you must kill a Nexus, not just a handful of Probes, so you're a bit more committed than usual to doing damage. It's the kind of situation that you should win as long as continue the aggression, because he won't have a lot of units, but if you back off without doing enough damage you could lose. Immediately responding with a 2-Base Hydralisk/Speedling doom drop in the main is very effective.

Dark Shrine + Gateways, build Overseers while you drop. He'll probably hold off without losing too much, but if his DTs don't do damage, you're ahead. Follow-up with Mutalisks (optional) and an eventual Roach-Max to deny his third base/hold any 2-base all-ins. Hydralisks not recommended.


Scout Denial:

+ Show Spoiler +
Protoss hate playing blind. If you can deny their Probes/Zealots from getting any meaningful scouting, you can keep them in the dark with your early Zergling speed. They may misread you based on your early gas, and build extra cannons in case you all-in. In the early game, there are two essential times to deny scouting:

1) As soon as your first 4 Zerglings spawn (18-20 supply). By this point you'll have mined more than 100 Gas and it's fine if Protoss scouts that, but obviously you need to chase him away before your Lair is started. Once his Probe is out of your main, keep 2 Zerglings on the ramp to your main so that he cna't scout your Lair, and use the remaining 2 to take a Xel-Naga and scout for hidden Probes/Pylons by your third/fourth base locations. Be prepared to bring your Queen to the ramp if a Probe tries to sneak his way into your main. With the 2 ramp-Zerglings and the Queen, you can always deny scouting of the Lair.

2) Speed finishes approximate 5:05-5:15 with this build. Once speed is done, there is no excuse for letting a Probe scout your lack of a third Hatchery. Position 1 Zergling on each Xel-Naga, and 1 Zergling in the path to your 3rd. Make sure there's nowhere he could have hid a Probe on your side of the map (through Overlords and shift-rallied Zerglings). With good positioning and micro, your initial 4 Speedlings should be enough to shut down a single-Zealot scout as well as any Probes, but if you're uncomfortable, you can build another couple sets of Speedlings around 30 supply (after Overlord Drop and 2nd Queen). 8 Speedlings can shut down a Zealot/Stalker poke as long as you engage at once. With speed you should completely own your side of the map.


All-In (Or is it?):

+ Show Spoiler +
Poll: Do you think Drop-Style ZvP is an All-In?

Maybe, it's not necessarily all-in, but you have to do significant damage to stay even. (30)
 
43%

No, the drop is just a stepping stone into the midgame. (21)
 
30%

Yes, your economy is too low to transition if you don't do crippling damage. (19)
 
27%

70 total votes

Your vote: Do you think Drop-Style ZvP is an All-In?

(Vote): Yes, your economy is too low to transition if you don't do crippling damage.
(Vote): No, the drop is just a stepping stone into the midgame.
(Vote): Maybe, it's not necessarily all-in, but you have to do significant damage to stay even.



Contributing to the Guide:

+ Show Spoiler +
I mentioned earlier that I'm hoping others will offer their insights to help develop this style. As you practice with the build, save some replays, upload them to DropSC, and link them in your comments. Give us a bit of analysis on things that worked well or didn't work well. Explain some of the mistakes you made along the way (I've forgotten Overlord speed a hundred times), or the parts of the build that are most difficult to execute. I will continue producing videos to add to the guide, especially on Late-Game transitions (Broodlords, Infestors, ...Ultralisks!?) I'd be happy to use some of your replays for future tutorials

Also if you enjoyed the guide, please comment and show support on TL and Reddit


Thank you for reading, Happy Holidays!
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1852 Posts
December 22 2012 21:08 GMT
#2
Update - compiled a huge replay pack under the "replay" section, some of the games even have those "Broodlord" things!
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
D4V3Z02
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany646 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 21:30:39
December 22 2012 21:29 GMT
#3
You can stray this in as a cheese in a BO3 but you wont have a solid win rate, because when a protoss knows how to deal with that youll lose horribly.
http://www.twitch.tv/d4v3z02 all your base are belong to overlord
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1852 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 21:45:20
December 22 2012 21:34 GMT
#4
On December 23 2012 06:29 D4V3Z02 wrote:
You can stray this in as a cheese in a BO3 but you wont have a solid win rate, because when a protoss knows how to deal with that youll lose horribly.

First of all, I definitely agree with you that this is a great build to mix into a BO3 and not ideal to use every game of a BO7, however I have used it consistently in GM with a solid win-rate, even against players I've matched against several times in a row. It's not simply a matter of any Protoss scouting it and automatically defending it - it's tougher to deal with than you're giving credit. But you are right - if your opponent knows that it's coming, he will lose less to your initial drop, but that doesn't mean you're out of the game. You still have the advantage of keeping him contained, you have full scouting of his tech and Gateway count, and you can delay the Protoss third with overlord creep.

I'd actually like to avoid discussion on whether this is a cheese/all-in, because I don't think it will be very productive. I've posted an "All-In or Is It?" poll for people to give their two cents, and I'd rather focus instead on how to improve the timings, execution, and transitions.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
pAnatiC
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany123 Posts
December 22 2012 21:45 GMT
#5
Used his Guide/Playstyle for about 1 Month now.
Its really cool!

against the sentry-immortal Playstyle its like a freewin. You kill the nexus - he transfers all probes to natural - your bomb the natural - he goes all in..

But it really depends on denying the scouting of your not existing 3rd..
Against a reeeaally defensive blink/many Gate Player or mass phoenix style, its kinda gay :D

Looking forward for more Guides!
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1852 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-22 21:47:34
December 22 2012 21:47 GMT
#6
On December 23 2012 06:45 pAnatiC wrote:
against the sentry-immortal Playstyle its like a freewin.

I forgot to mention that it's incredibly strong against Sentry-Immortal styles, added bonus lol
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
CrazyF1r3f0x
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2106 Posts
December 22 2012 22:56 GMT
#7
On December 23 2012 06:47 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2012 06:45 pAnatiC wrote:
against the sentry-immortal Playstyle its like a freewin.

I forgot to mention that it's incredibly strong against Sentry-Immortal styles, added bonus lol

Maybe that's why you have a solid winrate with it
"Actual happiness always looks pretty squalid in comparison with the overcompensations for misery."
McTeazy
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada219 Posts
December 22 2012 23:59 GMT
#8
On December 23 2012 06:47 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2012 06:45 pAnatiC wrote:
against the sentry-immortal Playstyle its like a freewin.

I forgot to mention that it's incredibly strong against Sentry-Immortal styles, added bonus lol


point is rather moot since even with the 1 probe scout to see the third he'll know you're not playing 3 hatch before gas. if he tries to immortal sentry against this he's made a terrible play.

that being said, my response to this would be stargate and extra cannons at the front, which i think is pretty bad against it.

let's not pull any punches though: this is an all in play. i think you're concealing the nature of the build calling it "drop-style". in my eyes drop style would be more like a tvp, where you attempt to abuse the fact that protoss units are weak in small numbers against masses of cheap units.

a play like dropping half your army in the main, then sniping the third with the other half would be "drop-style" zvp, though i would argue you were the first to do it.

also a word on scouting: protoss doesn't need to probe scout your third base if you deny it with speedlings. the speedlings tell you enough: there's aggression coming
a person is smart, people are stupid
Mavvie
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Canada923 Posts
December 23 2012 00:00 GMT
#9
Thanks for the guide, this actually looks like a ton of fun haha

I like the idea of faking/feinting a 1 base roach or bane all in by letting him scout quick gas and a late natural, but denying followup scouts of third and main. I'll be able to mindgame the fuck out of my opponents, so I'll probably start opening 14/14 in all BoX ZvP's.

Thanks again for the writeup, thorough as always Tang!
Getting back into sc2 O_o
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy11363 Posts
December 23 2012 00:08 GMT
#10
Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.

Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.

Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.

As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.


All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.

Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.
Mussolini ModProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
TheOnlyRedViper
Profile Joined September 2012
Norway20 Posts
December 23 2012 00:29 GMT
#11
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote:
Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.

Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.

Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.

As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.


All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.

Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.


you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas.
You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1852 Posts
December 23 2012 00:35 GMT
#12
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote:
Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.

Agreed, I think that the whole distinction between all-in vs not-all-in is silly. Everyone has a different definition of all-in, so it's a pointless argument to have. When I say that I don't think Drop-Style is all-in, I mean that you don't have to kill the Protoss with the first drop to win the game, you can (and should) transition - how can a build that plans to win with a transition be all-in? That's what I call a timing attack. There are 40-50 replays in the pack against top Masters/Grandmasters, 90% of games continue past the first drop. Zerg can open aggressively, like this, and still play out a macro game assuming good execution, well-planned transitions, and solid multitasking. But this is just my opinion based on my experience, and it's reasonable to think this style is just "putting all your eggs in one basket," but you cannot know until you've tried it.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
McTeazy
Profile Joined January 2012
Canada219 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-23 00:43:49
December 23 2012 00:36 GMT
#13
On December 23 2012 09:29 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote:
Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.

Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.

Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.

As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.


All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.

Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.


you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas.
You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!


what you most likely know is that some sort of aggression is coming. you see gas being mined, and as a protoss player the only thing you can do is try to cover all the bases. with what you have seen, you simply try to cover everything: extra cannon, a few sentries for bane/roach rushes. pylons around your base for nydus/drop. cannon in the mineral lines for nydus/drop.

it is a strong build, mostly because it's hard to determine exactly what he's doing and defend it perfectly. it's almost guaranteed to do damage in my opinion.

but zerg is taking a 4 minute natural and no early third against an ffe. it's very all in.

Agreed, I think that the whole distinction between all-in vs not-all-in is silly. Everyone has a different definition of all-in, so it's a pointless argument to have. When I say that I don't think Drop-Style is all-in, I mean that you don't have to kill the Protoss with the first drop to win the game, you can (and should) transition - how can a build that plans to win with a transition be all-in? That's what I call a timing attack. There are 40-50 replays in the pack against top Masters/Grandmasters, 90% of games continue past the first drop. Zerg can open aggressively, like this, and still play out a macro game assuming good execution, well-planned transitions, and solid multitasking. But this is just my opinion based on my experience, and it's reasonable to think this style is just "putting all your eggs in one basket," but you cannot know until you've tried it.


his point (i think) was more that playing various all ins does not make you a worse player than someone who plays a macro style. i don't think there's any debate that it's all in.
a person is smart, people are stupid
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1852 Posts
December 23 2012 00:38 GMT
#14
On December 23 2012 09:00 Mavvie wrote:
I like the idea of faking/feinting a 1 base roach or bane all in by letting him scout quick gas and a late natural, but denying followup scouts of third and main. I'll be able to mindgame the fuck out of my opponents, so I'll probably start opening 14/14 in all BoX ZvP's.

Thanks Mavvie. Gas-first is definitely viable in a BoX series ZvP with Leenock's 10Roach Rush and JulyZerg's oldschool 14/14 Baneling bust, I love where your head is at lol.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1852 Posts
December 23 2012 00:42 GMT
#15
On December 23 2012 09:36 McTeazy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2012 09:29 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote:
Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.

Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.

Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.

As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.


All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.

Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.


you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas.
You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!


what you most likely know is that some sort of aggression is coming. you see gas being mined, and as a protoss player the only thing you can do is try to cover all the bases. with what you have seen, you simply try to cover everything: extra cannon, a few sentries for bane/roach rushes. pylons around your base for nydus/drop. cannon in the mineral lines for nydus/drop.

it is a strong build, mostly because it's hard to determine exactly what he's doing and defend it perfectly. it's almost guaranteed to do damage in my opinion.

but zerg is taking a 4 minute natural and no early third against an ffe. it's very all in.

You make some great points about Protoss being suspicious and covering all the angles after scouting gas-first, McTeazy. I think we're splitting hairs here about what exactly is an "all-in", because while you're saying this build is almost guaranteed to do damage, you still call it an all-in. Is a build that is almost guaranteed to do damage (sometimes enough to put you ahead, sometimes not) an all-in?
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TheOnlyRedViper
Profile Joined September 2012
Norway20 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-12-23 00:59:42
December 23 2012 00:45 GMT
#16
On December 23 2012 09:36 McTeazy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2012 09:29 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote:
Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.

Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.

Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.

As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.


All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.

Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.


you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas.
You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!


what you most likely know is that some sort of aggression is coming. you see gas being mined, and as a protoss player the only thing you can do is try to cover all the bases. with what you have seen, you simply try to cover everything: extra cannon, a few sentries for bane/roach rushes. pylons around your base for nydus/drop. cannon in the mineral lines for nydus/drop.

it is a strong build, mostly because it's hard to determine exactly what he's doing and defend it perfectly. it's almost guaranteed to do damage in my opinion.

but zerg is taking a 4 minute natural and no early third against an ffe. it's very all in.



If i as a zerg player is forcing u as a toss player to take that kind of precautions, while beeing able to cause guaranteed dammage, I'm happy with that and can PLAN further transitions! Which makes the build imo a good one, with a calculates risk! Combined with solid transitions , this is a build you can use on ladder with a good win ratio and mix into a box with sucess.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1852 Posts
December 23 2012 00:46 GMT
#17
On December 23 2012 09:36 McTeazy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2012 09:29 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:
On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote:
Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.

Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.

Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.

As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.


All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.

Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.


you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas.
You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!


his point (i think) was more that playing various all ins does not make you a worse player than someone who plays a macro style. i don't think there's any debate that it's all in.

And I agree, though I think if you're doing the same all-in every game, every day, you may not develop some crucial mechanics.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
CCalms
Profile Joined November 2010
United States341 Posts
December 23 2012 03:33 GMT
#18
I hope zergs will start doing this more in NA grandmaster, I could use some free points. It was a strong all-in back when it was brand new, but if you can include it in your opponent's range of builds and they end up doing it, it is pretty much a free win, like other cheeses.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1852 Posts
December 23 2012 03:41 GMT
#19
On December 23 2012 12:33 CCalms wrote:
I hope zergs will start doing this more in NA grandmaster, I could use some free points. It was a strong all-in back when it was brand new, but if you can include it in your opponent's range of builds and they end up doing it, it is pretty much a free win, like other cheeses.

I don't think many Protoss will share your excitement.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
CajunMan
Profile Joined July 2010
United States811 Posts
December 23 2012 04:30 GMT
#20
Thank you for this build I have been looking for something to switch it up on Ohana against all the Sentry Immortal allins and this seems like just the thing. Your the man now dawg.
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