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United States4883 Posts
On September 18 2014 19:35 Tzyx wrote: Heya folks. Is there a post somewhere detailing the economy difference between dropping a pool first at 15, or going hatch first?
Not that I know of, but the difference is fairly minimal, about 2-3 drones. You get a faster first inject with pool first, though, so you get ~half an inject ahead of hatch first builds, making it all even out pretty nicely. Personally, I say go hatch first almost every game and just get used to dealing with a lot of pressures.
Also, shoutout to Frankie Teardrop for being on point about defending Soultrain. You CAN defend that pressure with hydras, but you need up to 66 drones (full 3-base saturation) in order to make that work and you have to buy a lot of time.
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On September 17 2014 23:04 Frankie Teardrop wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2014 19:17 Awin wrote: Simple ZvP question (diamond league) :
Should I make hydras to defend an immortal all in (the also called 7 gates robo) ?
I constantly lose to this all in, no matter what I do. I am not a greedy player and I just played 2 games against some guy on ladder who does the same thing in every ZvP so I knew for sure what kind of all in arrived.
Both games I stop droning after 2 bases saturated (4 gas) and a third with a few drones (40/45 in total). I tried to mass lings and roaches in the first game, trying also to kill his pylones as long as possible but died any way. I asked him what should have I done, he told me hydras.
I met the same guy the same day and went for hydras with the same amount of drones, still lost.
I am pretty lost against this so any tips would be cool (same for 7 gates blink) Immortal/sentry can be held with just roach/ling or roach/hydra/ling. Both are equally viable. If you KNOW it's gonna be Immortal sentry, you can even go 2 roach warrens and research roach speed and burrow move at the same time. Burrow roaches are the easiest way to hold it, I find, but it's not practical to make 2 roach warrens unless you've already decided to go burrow-move cheese, or know the guy you're playing against is going to immo sentry before you even scout. Your problem is that you cut drones too soon. 40-45 drones is NOT 2 full base saturation plus some drones on the 3rd. 44 drones is 2 full base with all 4 gas. This is about how many probes the Protoss will have when he moves out. You need at least 10 more drones to be able to hold this all in. 55 seems to be the number most often flouted, but sometimes I even get away with 60 if I'm lucky. Once you identify it will be immortal sentry (your overlord should scout a finished robo facility + several gateways being built around 7:00) you should power drones until you have 2 full base saturation (44 drones) plus 8-12 drones mining minerals at your 3rd. Once you reach this drone count, your lair will be about halfway done. Start massing lings and rallying them to the Protoss natural in order to poke constantly. This will make the Protoss wary of runbys (perhaps even distracting him from his build if he has to constantly worry about force fielding his wall) as well as provide you with viable information such as sentry counts and the timing of the Protoss move out. As soon as your lair is done, start roach speed and begin massing roaches. If you like, you can drop a hydra den anytime between now and 10:00 as well. This is totally your call. You don't need hydras to hold the all in, but they can help, and they are fun to use. If you get a hydra den, research hydra range ASAP.
What do you think of the "see forge/nexus first" 15pool, Fast 3 hatch no gaz 2gaz at 5:45ish Lair at 7 ? (i think) Ling speed (will finish at 9) then double gaz make mass lings, hydra den when lair done and hydras.
Bench is 60drones, 50lings and 10hydras at 10" if i recall (i'm a naab so i'm sure i have half the hydra count and a litlle less lings). Apparently it can hold every 2base allin that are not gateway expand and deny third base if no allin. Easy to transition to what you want after that (you can fast hive, or drop a spire, or make infestors. Your choice). Seems kind of simalar to what you told him. but with hydras (oh you get range ofc)
But my post is invalid if the 7gate robo si a gatefirst build i don't remember.
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Northern Ireland280 Posts
On September 18 2014 20:15 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2014 19:35 Tzyx wrote: Heya folks. Is there a post somewhere detailing the economy difference between dropping a pool first at 15, or going hatch first? Not that I know of, but the difference is fairly minimal, about 2-3 drones. You get a faster first inject with pool first, though, so you get ~half an inject ahead of hatch first builds, making it all even out pretty nicely. Personally, I say go hatch first almost every game and just get used to dealing with a lot of pressures.
Thanks John (again ^^). I found that, going hatch first was fine for my vT and vP games, i found that holding most of that pressure with 4+ queens was ok. I had problems with it in ZvZ though. Mostly just getting ling'd to death. That's probably my bad scouting though rather than the build
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In ZvZ, when do you go for your 3rd hatch and 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gas if you went +1 missile before lair? So far, what I've been doing is after starting +1 missile, I get my third at around 6:30~ and then my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gas are taken all at once when I start lair which is when I get my next 100 gas. Is that correct?
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United States4883 Posts
On September 19 2014 08:30 learning88 wrote: In ZvZ, when do you go for your 3rd hatch and 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gas if you went +1 missile before lair? So far, what I've been doing is after starting +1 missile, I get my third at around 6:30~ and then my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gas are taken all at once when I start lair which is when I get my next 100 gas. Is that correct?
JOWJ I SUMMON THEE.
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United States248 Posts
So the way I see pros doing this is:
Evo chamber + second geyser @5:30-5:45 (it varies depending on their opening build) Lair @ 6:00-6:15(sometimes 3rd gas) RW @ 6:20 + 3rd gas (latest timing)
3rd as you can afford it after this. Its hard to nail down a concrete timing since zergling pressure and zergling defense is SO common. You'll defend your 3rd base with ling/bling until your RW pops (right as your lair finishes hopefully) and then you can get 6-8 roaches right away for safety if they are being aggressive.
Here's the build stub for what I'm doing currently, based on Violet/Hyun's safe ZvZ (not their gasless stuff):
15p 16h 17g @5 min baneling nest @5:30 second gas @5:45 evo ~@6:10ish Lair (depends on how many defensive banelings made) + 3rd geyser @6:30 rw (20-seconds after lair basically)
3rd as possible.
Your 4th gas you don't actually need for a while since 2base saturation on minerals + 3 on gas is perfect saturation for roaches.
Also, WOO i'm blue now!
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Nice. Thank you guys for the quick response. Off to laddering I go!!
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Northern Ireland280 Posts
Are there any hydra based builds for the ZvT matchup? I had a play around with going massqueen into mass hydra today and did surprisingly well against bio balls. I love using hydras but I was under the impression that they wern't really useable as the mainstay of your army vT. Is there a reason for this? Is it just that they're kinda slow? Thaught they'd get slaughtered by a decent amount of bio, but every time i tried it, they traded out really well. Had a look around, but i can't find anything.. which leads me to believe that there must be a reason that they don't get used in this way much. My terrible plat opponents aren't really a good litmus test i think
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On September 19 2014 23:08 Tzyx wrote:Are there any hydra based builds for the ZvT matchup? I had a play around with going massqueen into mass hydra today and did surprisingly well against bio balls. I love using hydras but I was under the impression that they wern't really useable as the mainstay of your army vT. Is there a reason for this? Is it just that they're kinda slow? Thaught they'd get slaughtered by a decent amount of bio, but every time i tried it, they traded out really well. Had a look around, but i can't find anything.. which leads me to believe that there must be a reason that they don't get used in this way much. My terrible plat opponents aren't really a good litmus test i think
Hydras on their own are pretty terrible against bio. Supported with ling/bling, ultras or roaches they can however be quite strong. If a more or less pure hydrastyle worked for you, then you probably just had quite an army advantage. Additionally, they are really terrible when the opponent reacts with siege tanks (marine/medivac/tank) and it is much harder to defend really good drop play than when going mutalisks.
Basically, an equal supply of stim/shield marines beats range/speed hydralisks, but the marines don't cost gas and additionally have medivac support. Marauders cost 25 gas less and - though they lose supply for supply against hydras - aren't terrible.
If you want to play *something* including hydras, John's Notes on Hyun's Roach/Hydra style are probably a great starting point. To keep your expectations low: this is more a roach than a hydralisk style in my opinion but quite fun to throw in when you get bored of the 25min marine defense macro styles, as it is one of the best, solid Zerg aggressive styles in ZvT. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/445783-sc2-notes-hyuns-roach-hydra-zvt
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Northern Ireland280 Posts
On September 19 2014 23:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2014 23:08 Tzyx wrote:Are there any hydra based builds for the ZvT matchup? I had a play around with going massqueen into mass hydra today and did surprisingly well against bio balls. I love using hydras but I was under the impression that they wern't really useable as the mainstay of your army vT. Is there a reason for this? Is it just that they're kinda slow? Thaught they'd get slaughtered by a decent amount of bio, but every time i tried it, they traded out really well. Had a look around, but i can't find anything.. which leads me to believe that there must be a reason that they don't get used in this way much. My terrible plat opponents aren't really a good litmus test i think Hydras on their own are pretty terrible against bio. Supported with ling/bling, ultras or roaches they can however be quite strong. If a more or less pure hydrastyle worked for you, then you probably just had quite an army advantage. Additionally, they are really terrible when the opponent reacts with siege tanks (marine/medivac/tank) and it is much harder to defend really good drop play than when going mutalisks. Basically, an equal supply of stim/shield marines beats range/speed hydralisks, but the marines don't cost gas and additionally have medivac support. Marauders cost 25 gas less and - though they lose supply for supply against hydras - aren't terrible. If you want to play *something* including hydras, John's Notes on Hyun's Roach/Hydra style are probably a great starting point. To keep your expectations low: this is more a roach than a hydralisk style in my opinion but quite fun to throw in when you get bored of the 25min marine defense macro styles, as it is one of the best, solid Zerg aggressive styles in ZvT. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/445783-sc2-notes-hyuns-roach-hydra-zvt
Yeah figured this might be the case. I'm hoping when LoTV comes Hydras get scarier Thanks for your comments.
Off to practice my ZvP now. 15% winrate is a little shabby. Need to scratch 'BUILD CORRUPTORS' into my monitor hah.
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On September 19 2014 08:57 Jowj wrote: So the way I see pros doing this is:
Evo chamber + second geyser @5:30-5:45 (it varies depending on their opening build) Lair @ 6:00-6:15(sometimes 3rd gas) RW @ 6:20 + 3rd gas (latest timing)
3rd as you can afford it after this. Its hard to nail down a concrete timing since zergling pressure and zergling defense is SO common. You'll defend your 3rd base with ling/bling until your RW pops (right as your lair finishes hopefully) and then you can get 6-8 roaches right away for safety if they are being aggressive.
Here's the build stub for what I'm doing currently, based on Violet/Hyun's safe ZvZ (not their gasless stuff):
15p 16h 17g @5 min baneling nest @5:30 second gas @5:45 evo ~@6:10ish Lair (depends on how many defensive banelings made) + 3rd geyser @6:30 rw (20-seconds after lair basically)
3rd as possible.
Your 4th gas you don't actually need for a while since 2base saturation on minerals + 3 on gas is perfect saturation for roaches.
Also, WOO i'm blue now!
I'm fairly new and pretty lost in zvz (as well as the rest) What are the advantages/disadvantages of this vs the gasless openings? is it less vulnerable to super early pools?
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United States4883 Posts
On September 20 2014 04:33 Lethean wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2014 08:57 Jowj wrote: So the way I see pros doing this is:
Evo chamber + second geyser @5:30-5:45 (it varies depending on their opening build) Lair @ 6:00-6:15(sometimes 3rd gas) RW @ 6:20 + 3rd gas (latest timing)
3rd as you can afford it after this. Its hard to nail down a concrete timing since zergling pressure and zergling defense is SO common. You'll defend your 3rd base with ling/bling until your RW pops (right as your lair finishes hopefully) and then you can get 6-8 roaches right away for safety if they are being aggressive.
Here's the build stub for what I'm doing currently, based on Violet/Hyun's safe ZvZ (not their gasless stuff):
15p 16h 17g @5 min baneling nest @5:30 second gas @5:45 evo ~@6:10ish Lair (depends on how many defensive banelings made) + 3rd geyser @6:30 rw (20-seconds after lair basically)
3rd as possible.
Your 4th gas you don't actually need for a while since 2base saturation on minerals + 3 on gas is perfect saturation for roaches.
Also, WOO i'm blue now! I'm fairly new and pretty lost in zvz (as well as the rest) What are the advantages/disadvantages of this vs the gasless openings? is it less vulnerable to super early pools?
For beginners, I highly recommend gasless builds. They are fairly safe, structured, and lend themselves to pretty straightforward play. The downside to gasless builds is that they are exploitable by opponents who know what to look for and how to respond, which makes opening gas more appealing in the sense that you can "hide what you're doing" a bit better. Going gasless or not doesn't really affect your ability to hold early pools, but with gas openings, you have the opportunity for counter speedling pressure.
As a whole, gas openings are a bit more flexible, but gasless is much easier to execute and leads to stronger macro timings, so I generally recommend this to newer players. (And most players below masters don't know how to exploit it properly anyway). If you haven't seen Lowko's Gasless ZvZ Build Order video, I highly recommend it.
One more note: gasless openers rely on a walloff to hold of speedling/baneling pressure, so they're a bit harder to do on maps like Nimbus, King Sejong Station, or Foxtrot where the natural ramps are further away or quite a bit larger.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 20 2014 00:12 Tzyx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2014 23:23 Big J wrote:On September 19 2014 23:08 Tzyx wrote:Are there any hydra based builds for the ZvT matchup? I had a play around with going massqueen into mass hydra today and did surprisingly well against bio balls. I love using hydras but I was under the impression that they wern't really useable as the mainstay of your army vT. Is there a reason for this? Is it just that they're kinda slow? Thaught they'd get slaughtered by a decent amount of bio, but every time i tried it, they traded out really well. Had a look around, but i can't find anything.. which leads me to believe that there must be a reason that they don't get used in this way much. My terrible plat opponents aren't really a good litmus test i think Hydras on their own are pretty terrible against bio. Supported with ling/bling, ultras or roaches they can however be quite strong. If a more or less pure hydrastyle worked for you, then you probably just had quite an army advantage. Additionally, they are really terrible when the opponent reacts with siege tanks (marine/medivac/tank) and it is much harder to defend really good drop play than when going mutalisks. Basically, an equal supply of stim/shield marines beats range/speed hydralisks, but the marines don't cost gas and additionally have medivac support. Marauders cost 25 gas less and - though they lose supply for supply against hydras - aren't terrible. If you want to play *something* including hydras, John's Notes on Hyun's Roach/Hydra style are probably a great starting point. To keep your expectations low: this is more a roach than a hydralisk style in my opinion but quite fun to throw in when you get bored of the 25min marine defense macro styles, as it is one of the best, solid Zerg aggressive styles in ZvT. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/445783-sc2-notes-hyuns-roach-hydra-zvt Yeah figured this might be the case. I'm hoping when LoTV comes Hydras get scarier Thanks for your comments. Off to practice my ZvP now. 15% winrate is a little shabby. Need to scratch 'BUILD CORRUPTORS' into my monitor hah.
You need faster vipers, probably. Corruptors should only be used for sharp timings and emergency defense. In every other case, vipers provide more long-term stability and versatility while still serving about the same purpose. I highly suggest forcing yourself to start at 9:00-9:30 hive every game that the Protoss takes a 3rd base (go hydra den/infestor pit at the same time at lair).
Also, if you can get the timings for that roach/hydra ZvT down, it is a GOLDEN build on Merry Go Round because of the incredibly open 3rd base. I honestly don't think HyuN has lost a ZvT on that map while doing that strategy.
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On September 20 2014 05:10 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 04:33 Lethean wrote:On September 19 2014 08:57 Jowj wrote: So the way I see pros doing this is:
Evo chamber + second geyser @5:30-5:45 (it varies depending on their opening build) Lair @ 6:00-6:15(sometimes 3rd gas) RW @ 6:20 + 3rd gas (latest timing)
3rd as you can afford it after this. Its hard to nail down a concrete timing since zergling pressure and zergling defense is SO common. You'll defend your 3rd base with ling/bling until your RW pops (right as your lair finishes hopefully) and then you can get 6-8 roaches right away for safety if they are being aggressive.
Here's the build stub for what I'm doing currently, based on Violet/Hyun's safe ZvZ (not their gasless stuff):
15p 16h 17g @5 min baneling nest @5:30 second gas @5:45 evo ~@6:10ish Lair (depends on how many defensive banelings made) + 3rd geyser @6:30 rw (20-seconds after lair basically)
3rd as possible.
Your 4th gas you don't actually need for a while since 2base saturation on minerals + 3 on gas is perfect saturation for roaches.
Also, WOO i'm blue now! I'm fairly new and pretty lost in zvz (as well as the rest) What are the advantages/disadvantages of this vs the gasless openings? is it less vulnerable to super early pools? For beginners, I highly recommend gasless builds. They are fairly safe, structured, and lend themselves to pretty straightforward play. The downside to gasless builds is that they are exploitable by opponents who know what to look for and how to respond, which makes opening gas more appealing in the sense that you can "hide what you're doing" a bit better. Going gasless or not doesn't really affect your ability to hold early pools, but with gas openings, you have the opportunity for counter speedling pressure. As a whole, gas openings are a bit more flexible, but gasless is much easier to execute and leads to stronger macro timings, so I generally recommend this to newer players. (And most players below masters don't know how to exploit it properly anyway). If you haven't seen Lowko's Gasless ZvZ Build Order video, I highly recommend it. One more note: gasless openers rely on a walloff to hold of speedling/baneling pressure, so they're a bit harder to do on maps like Nimbus, King Sejong Station, or Foxtrot where the natural ramps are further away or quite a bit larger.
Actually, King Sejong and Deadwing are the only maps in the map pool where you can wall off early with just a RW and 2 evos and have a one hex space open to fit a queen in. On Overgrowth you can also wall early but need 3 evos and a RW or use double queen in the hole which can be a bit unreliable. On Catallena and Merry Go Round you can wall with 2 evos and a RW but you'll have to wait for creep from tumor to get there which means the wall will be quite late. Foxtrot is just horrible no matter what you do and on Nimbus you'll also have to wait for creep from tumor, but you can use double queen to block the ramp to both of your bases.
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United States4883 Posts
On September 20 2014 11:29 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 05:10 SC2John wrote:On September 20 2014 04:33 Lethean wrote:On September 19 2014 08:57 Jowj wrote: So the way I see pros doing this is:
Evo chamber + second geyser @5:30-5:45 (it varies depending on their opening build) Lair @ 6:00-6:15(sometimes 3rd gas) RW @ 6:20 + 3rd gas (latest timing)
3rd as you can afford it after this. Its hard to nail down a concrete timing since zergling pressure and zergling defense is SO common. You'll defend your 3rd base with ling/bling until your RW pops (right as your lair finishes hopefully) and then you can get 6-8 roaches right away for safety if they are being aggressive.
Here's the build stub for what I'm doing currently, based on Violet/Hyun's safe ZvZ (not their gasless stuff):
15p 16h 17g @5 min baneling nest @5:30 second gas @5:45 evo ~@6:10ish Lair (depends on how many defensive banelings made) + 3rd geyser @6:30 rw (20-seconds after lair basically)
3rd as possible.
Your 4th gas you don't actually need for a while since 2base saturation on minerals + 3 on gas is perfect saturation for roaches.
Also, WOO i'm blue now! I'm fairly new and pretty lost in zvz (as well as the rest) What are the advantages/disadvantages of this vs the gasless openings? is it less vulnerable to super early pools? For beginners, I highly recommend gasless builds. They are fairly safe, structured, and lend themselves to pretty straightforward play. The downside to gasless builds is that they are exploitable by opponents who know what to look for and how to respond, which makes opening gas more appealing in the sense that you can "hide what you're doing" a bit better. Going gasless or not doesn't really affect your ability to hold early pools, but with gas openings, you have the opportunity for counter speedling pressure. As a whole, gas openings are a bit more flexible, but gasless is much easier to execute and leads to stronger macro timings, so I generally recommend this to newer players. (And most players below masters don't know how to exploit it properly anyway). If you haven't seen Lowko's Gasless ZvZ Build Order video, I highly recommend it. One more note: gasless openers rely on a walloff to hold of speedling/baneling pressure, so they're a bit harder to do on maps like Nimbus, King Sejong Station, or Foxtrot where the natural ramps are further away or quite a bit larger. Actually, King Sejong and Deadwing are the only maps in the map pool where you can wall off early with just a RW and 2 evos and have a one hex space open to fit a queen in. On Overgrowth you can also wall early but need 3 evos and a RW or use double queen in the hole which can be a bit unreliable. On Catallena and Merry Go Round you can wall with 2 evos and a RW but you'll have to wait for creep from tumor to get there which means the wall will be quite late. Foxtrot is just horrible no matter what you do and on Nimbus you'll also have to wait for creep from tumor, but you can use double queen to block the ramp to both of your bases.
So after you posted this, I went on a quest to prove you wrong and found a few cool things along the way that I'll share. First of all, though, you were right about all of this. However, I disagree a BIT on Sejong Station and Overgrowth, and here's why:
You're right, this IS a two hex choke, but you can block if you have a queen perfectly in the center, and the double queen block is really not that much harder to make work. For all intents and purposes, this is enough to deal with any kind of speedling pressure and even some light baneling pressure; even if you have to double queen block, the second queen gets so little surface area to lings that it's fairly negligible. Against dedicated baneling busts or early ling all-ins, just wall with an extra evo (providing you don't place a creep tumor where I placed it lol).
With this wall, your queen is blocking behind the geyser. However, this particular walloff makes it really really difficult to play into the later stages of the game, as your roaches will get choked up in the area behind the geyser. On another map, this might not be too much of a problem, but the fact that the natural has backdoor rocks makes much more relevant. One could make the argument that you can just kill the evo later and rebuild it, but in my experience, I've always needed both evos going constantly. Therefore, I propose this wall off:
If you do it like this, you don't run into the later problems of having to deal with the later hassle of trying to fit your roaches through a single hex hole. If you get linged, this will hold up fairly well, and you can always fully wall off with a 3rd evo chamber in an emergency:
Note the 1-hex space between the two evos next to the geyser. This is still a full wall, but it allows you to use one hex of the geyser in your wall, allowing you to wall with just 3 evos and a roach warren. All in all, I think this is the proper way to wall on Sejong because it's more versatile and flows into the mid game a lot better.
Anyways, this is just me being obsessive. Thanks for the input, though, it was very informational and helps a lot to narrow things down!
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On September 20 2014 13:37 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 11:29 Zheryn wrote:On September 20 2014 05:10 SC2John wrote:On September 20 2014 04:33 Lethean wrote:On September 19 2014 08:57 Jowj wrote: So the way I see pros doing this is:
Evo chamber + second geyser @5:30-5:45 (it varies depending on their opening build) Lair @ 6:00-6:15(sometimes 3rd gas) RW @ 6:20 + 3rd gas (latest timing)
3rd as you can afford it after this. Its hard to nail down a concrete timing since zergling pressure and zergling defense is SO common. You'll defend your 3rd base with ling/bling until your RW pops (right as your lair finishes hopefully) and then you can get 6-8 roaches right away for safety if they are being aggressive.
Here's the build stub for what I'm doing currently, based on Violet/Hyun's safe ZvZ (not their gasless stuff):
15p 16h 17g @5 min baneling nest @5:30 second gas @5:45 evo ~@6:10ish Lair (depends on how many defensive banelings made) + 3rd geyser @6:30 rw (20-seconds after lair basically)
3rd as possible.
Your 4th gas you don't actually need for a while since 2base saturation on minerals + 3 on gas is perfect saturation for roaches.
Also, WOO i'm blue now! I'm fairly new and pretty lost in zvz (as well as the rest) What are the advantages/disadvantages of this vs the gasless openings? is it less vulnerable to super early pools? For beginners, I highly recommend gasless builds. They are fairly safe, structured, and lend themselves to pretty straightforward play. The downside to gasless builds is that they are exploitable by opponents who know what to look for and how to respond, which makes opening gas more appealing in the sense that you can "hide what you're doing" a bit better. Going gasless or not doesn't really affect your ability to hold early pools, but with gas openings, you have the opportunity for counter speedling pressure. As a whole, gas openings are a bit more flexible, but gasless is much easier to execute and leads to stronger macro timings, so I generally recommend this to newer players. (And most players below masters don't know how to exploit it properly anyway). If you haven't seen Lowko's Gasless ZvZ Build Order video, I highly recommend it. One more note: gasless openers rely on a walloff to hold of speedling/baneling pressure, so they're a bit harder to do on maps like Nimbus, King Sejong Station, or Foxtrot where the natural ramps are further away or quite a bit larger. Actually, King Sejong and Deadwing are the only maps in the map pool where you can wall off early with just a RW and 2 evos and have a one hex space open to fit a queen in. On Overgrowth you can also wall early but need 3 evos and a RW or use double queen in the hole which can be a bit unreliable. On Catallena and Merry Go Round you can wall with 2 evos and a RW but you'll have to wait for creep from tumor to get there which means the wall will be quite late. Foxtrot is just horrible no matter what you do and on Nimbus you'll also have to wait for creep from tumor, but you can use double queen to block the ramp to both of your bases. So after you posted this, I went on a quest to prove you wrong and found a few cool things along the way that I'll share. First of all, though, you were right about all of this. However, I disagree a BIT on Sejong Station and Overgrowth, and here's why: You're right, this IS a two hex choke, but you can block if you have a queen perfectly in the center, and the double queen block is really not that much harder to make work. For all intents and purposes, this is enough to deal with any kind of speedling pressure and even some light baneling pressure; even if you have to double queen block, the second queen gets so little surface area to lings that it's fairly negligible. Against dedicated baneling busts or early ling all-ins, just wall with an extra evo (providing you don't place a creep tumor where I placed it lol). With this wall, your queen is blocking behind the geyser. However, this particular walloff makes it really really difficult to play into the later stages of the game, as your roaches will get choked up in the area behind the geyser. On another map, this might not be too much of a problem, but the fact that the natural has backdoor rocks makes much more relevant. One could make the argument that you can just kill the evo later and rebuild it, but in my experience, I've always needed both evos going constantly. Therefore, I propose this wall off: If you do it like this, you don't run into the later problems of having to deal with the later hassle of trying to fit your roaches through a single hex hole. If you get linged, this will hold up fairly well, and you can always fully wall off with a 3rd evo chamber in an emergency: Note the 1-hex space between the two evos next to the geyser. This is still a full wall, but it allows you to use one hex of the geyser in your wall, allowing you to wall with just 3 evos and a roach warren. All in all, I think this is the proper way to wall on Sejong because it's more versatile and flows into the mid game a lot better. Anyways, this is just me being obsessive. Thanks for the input, though, it was very informational and helps a lot to narrow things down!
Very in depth post! =) You're right of course about the different walls, but I've never really liked the walls with 2 hex holes in them. It always felt really hard for me to defend properly if the opponent commited to killing off a queen there as several lings would get surface area, so I switched in to "1 hex hole walls" where only 1 or 2 lings can get surface area so that he basically has to have banelings to bring down the wall quick enough. Probably just me being bad not getting the other walls to work, but I think both are viable.
Edit: Oh, and about using double evos, I mostly use 1 evo as I like to be aggressive and I don't think double evo is very well suited for that. I might have to consider rethinking my walling and kill off one evo later on since I don't really use it anyway, thanks for the insight! :D
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United States4883 Posts
On September 20 2014 23:13 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2014 13:37 SC2John wrote:On September 20 2014 11:29 Zheryn wrote:On September 20 2014 05:10 SC2John wrote:On September 20 2014 04:33 Lethean wrote:On September 19 2014 08:57 Jowj wrote: So the way I see pros doing this is:
Evo chamber + second geyser @5:30-5:45 (it varies depending on their opening build) Lair @ 6:00-6:15(sometimes 3rd gas) RW @ 6:20 + 3rd gas (latest timing)
3rd as you can afford it after this. Its hard to nail down a concrete timing since zergling pressure and zergling defense is SO common. You'll defend your 3rd base with ling/bling until your RW pops (right as your lair finishes hopefully) and then you can get 6-8 roaches right away for safety if they are being aggressive.
Here's the build stub for what I'm doing currently, based on Violet/Hyun's safe ZvZ (not their gasless stuff):
15p 16h 17g @5 min baneling nest @5:30 second gas @5:45 evo ~@6:10ish Lair (depends on how many defensive banelings made) + 3rd geyser @6:30 rw (20-seconds after lair basically)
3rd as possible.
Your 4th gas you don't actually need for a while since 2base saturation on minerals + 3 on gas is perfect saturation for roaches.
Also, WOO i'm blue now! I'm fairly new and pretty lost in zvz (as well as the rest) What are the advantages/disadvantages of this vs the gasless openings? is it less vulnerable to super early pools? For beginners, I highly recommend gasless builds. They are fairly safe, structured, and lend themselves to pretty straightforward play. The downside to gasless builds is that they are exploitable by opponents who know what to look for and how to respond, which makes opening gas more appealing in the sense that you can "hide what you're doing" a bit better. Going gasless or not doesn't really affect your ability to hold early pools, but with gas openings, you have the opportunity for counter speedling pressure. As a whole, gas openings are a bit more flexible, but gasless is much easier to execute and leads to stronger macro timings, so I generally recommend this to newer players. (And most players below masters don't know how to exploit it properly anyway). If you haven't seen Lowko's Gasless ZvZ Build Order video, I highly recommend it. One more note: gasless openers rely on a walloff to hold of speedling/baneling pressure, so they're a bit harder to do on maps like Nimbus, King Sejong Station, or Foxtrot where the natural ramps are further away or quite a bit larger. Actually, King Sejong and Deadwing are the only maps in the map pool where you can wall off early with just a RW and 2 evos and have a one hex space open to fit a queen in. On Overgrowth you can also wall early but need 3 evos and a RW or use double queen in the hole which can be a bit unreliable. On Catallena and Merry Go Round you can wall with 2 evos and a RW but you'll have to wait for creep from tumor to get there which means the wall will be quite late. Foxtrot is just horrible no matter what you do and on Nimbus you'll also have to wait for creep from tumor, but you can use double queen to block the ramp to both of your bases. So after you posted this, I went on a quest to prove you wrong and found a few cool things along the way that I'll share. First of all, though, you were right about all of this. However, I disagree a BIT on Sejong Station and Overgrowth, and here's why: You're right, this IS a two hex choke, but you can block if you have a queen perfectly in the center, and the double queen block is really not that much harder to make work. For all intents and purposes, this is enough to deal with any kind of speedling pressure and even some light baneling pressure; even if you have to double queen block, the second queen gets so little surface area to lings that it's fairly negligible. Against dedicated baneling busts or early ling all-ins, just wall with an extra evo (providing you don't place a creep tumor where I placed it lol). With this wall, your queen is blocking behind the geyser. However, this particular walloff makes it really really difficult to play into the later stages of the game, as your roaches will get choked up in the area behind the geyser. On another map, this might not be too much of a problem, but the fact that the natural has backdoor rocks makes much more relevant. One could make the argument that you can just kill the evo later and rebuild it, but in my experience, I've always needed both evos going constantly. Therefore, I propose this wall off: If you do it like this, you don't run into the later problems of having to deal with the later hassle of trying to fit your roaches through a single hex hole. If you get linged, this will hold up fairly well, and you can always fully wall off with a 3rd evo chamber in an emergency: Note the 1-hex space between the two evos next to the geyser. This is still a full wall, but it allows you to use one hex of the geyser in your wall, allowing you to wall with just 3 evos and a roach warren. All in all, I think this is the proper way to wall on Sejong because it's more versatile and flows into the mid game a lot better. Anyways, this is just me being obsessive. Thanks for the input, though, it was very informational and helps a lot to narrow things down! Very in depth post! =) You're right of course about the different walls, but I've never really liked the walls with 2 hex holes in them. It always felt really hard for me to defend properly if the opponent commited to killing off a queen there as several lings would get surface area, so I switched in to "1 hex hole walls" where only 1 or 2 lings can get surface area so that he basically has to have banelings to bring down the wall quick enough. Probably just me being bad not getting the other walls to work, but I think both are viable. Edit: Oh, and about using double evos, I mostly use 1 evo as I like to be aggressive and I don't think double evo is very well suited for that. I might have to consider rethinking my walling and kill off one evo later on since I don't really use it anyway, thanks for the insight! :D
I'm a slight bit confused on going single evo because, at least in my experience, going gasless into single evo just doesn't make a lot of sense and is really awkward compared to a more streamlined gas opening. And I was under the impression that gas builds don't need to be so fully walled off unless it's an emergency (at least, according to Jowj), so I'm a little lost as to what you're referring to here.
Another thing to think about is, on MGR and Catallena (moreso Catallena), you can just drop a tumor with your first queen out (assuming you opened hatch first) and you'll have creep spread to the ramp by the time that you need it, even against 14/14 pressures.
Also, 4-6 slowling counterattacks will help a lot in dealing with that just because it buys you some time and/or it can snipe a queen.
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zvp 3 pylon block on the ramp on overgrowth, what did i do wrong? http://drop.sc/386337 not going to whine about the strategy, clearly there's a way to stop it, i just want to know where i messed up.
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On September 21 2014 03:43 brickrd wrote:zvp 3 pylon block on the ramp on overgrowth, what did i do wrong? http://drop.sc/386337 not going to whine about the strategy, clearly there's a way to stop it, i just want to know where i messed up. If you want to beat this rush (or any other cannon rush) straight-up, you must scout the ramp and the area around your hatch with a drone right after planting the hatch. If the block happens, pull six drones immediately to attack the middle pylon and only the middle pylon. While this is going on, you have to make lings just as your pool finishes. Every second matters. In the same vein, going 14 pool instead of 15 pool helps considerably against cannon rushes (but is slightly weaker in any other case).
I also strongly recommend hotkeying the mentioned six drones as a precaution in order to pull these immediately in case of a pylon block. The advantage of this is that your pull is quicker and that you always get the exact number of drones needed.
Here's a replay I already linked to someone on Reddit where I manage to defend this: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/5427012 It's on a different map though.
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thank you looks like i just need to a) focus the middle pylon and b) have really good timing, since scouting wasn't the problem for me. i suppose if i had left more drones mining my lings would have come out faster as well
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