Just sit and w8 for blizzard to do something.
on topic: you overmacro to much, why have 9 cc if u cant control the income?..
User was temp banned for this post.
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uTears
Venezuela19 Posts
Just sit and w8 for blizzard to do something. on topic: you overmacro to much, why have 9 cc if u cant control the income?.. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
guN-viCe
United States687 Posts
Go into a unit/micro simulator and keep practicing, in general you want your army to be like a wall, not a ball. You want your army to envelop the opponent's army. You want to spread/split/kite the units getting hit by splash. One trick is to use patrol to help spread your units, IIRC using Patrol instead of Move spreads units more efficiently. Another trick is to drop some MMM(1-2 dship) into your opponent's base, while you attack from the front. This can really mess even high level masters players, because a lot of protoss are used to the 1a mentality, they don't know how to properly split their army, and by the time they do, it's too late and the damage has been done(hopefully). | ||
Dan26
Australia239 Posts
On April 19 2014 00:49 MrInocence wrote: Show nested quote + On April 18 2014 19:38 Dan26 wrote: God everyone here is discussing your strategy, but noone realize just how irrelevant it all is, when the OP's basic fundamentals need serious work. I watched the first replay, and there so many things wrong that had NOTHING to do with your strategy. The major flaw in your play, was your macro. (a) You were unable to spend your money, due to late or insufficient infrastructure. (@ 13:00 you had 1.6k minerals and 600 gas). Instead of having 8 rax and 1-2 starports pumping out units constantly, you only just start adding your 4th, 5th and 6th Barracks; extremely late, which caused your money to climb. You had one base infrastructure with a 3 base economy. As a result of your money climbing, you expand into 4th and 5th bases when haven't properly setup 3 base infrastructure. (b) You were constantly supply blocked. (c) You were never really 'saturated' on any of your bases. Maybe for brief moments, but your were either under or over saturated, and you expanded way too quickly. The result being is you had a ludicrous amount of money later on in the game, and no real way to spend it. Macro is your ability to produce units, and keep all of your production buildings busy. The other element of macro is your ability to expand at the appropriate times to keep your production of units flowing. A good macro player is able to keep increasing his or her production capability while having the resources to support it. Now I'm going to tell you what to do, and if you hear me out, I promise you, your TvP will be much easier. Get a build from imbabuilds.com. Practice it over and over against AI until you can do it without thinking. Learn to take your infrastructure at the right time. Don't get supply blocked, properly saturate your bases, and as you take your 3rd base, ensure you get up 8/1/1 infrastructure in preparation for the influx of money. If you can do all the above, WHILE having ALL of your building producing units WITHOUT QUEUING, you have gold in your hands. Getting this right is so vital, and needs to be looked at first before you look at anything else. What's the right amount of barracks? I've noticed the pros usually go from 2 -> 3 -> 5 -> 8 -> 11 and sometimes -> 14 Also I watched the replays from the Toss perspective, he can usually cast a few spells and then look away from his main army to macro, or warp in dt/zealots to defend drops and then look away to macro, something I can't really do as terran... CAN'T REALLY DO THIS AS TERRAN? You're kidding right? What you have described is not race dependent, but SKILL dependent. The ability to go through macro cycles and control your army is up to you. Practice. Now to answer your question. Ok so it's important to understand different build orders get infrastructure at different times e.g. Most Terran FE builds will either get 3 or 2 rax, depending on how soon Terran wants to get medivacs, or if he wants more bio units sooner to feel safer against aggression, or perhaps be more aggressive. I go for this build: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-bombers-reaper-fe/ (While you are at this site, I highly recommend studying the other build orders, and reading through the scouting, transitions and tips sections as well) Study the above build closely and practice it against AI. That will give you a good feel of how to get up to 2 base infrastructure in a timely fashion. Optionally however, you can start building your 3rd Command Centre BEFORE adding +3 rax for a more economical opening. There are many different build orders/openers for Terran, and they all generally marry up to the same 3 base infrastructure, given the Terran is playing bio. Think about opening 1-1-1 for early widow mine drops etc; +2 rax are added not much later to make 3/1/1, then as money allows, and as 2 base economy kicks in, either a 3rd CC is built first, or, another 2 rax are added to make 5/1/1. Understand that if you choose to build your 3rd CC first, you will get up to 3 base infrastructure faster, while having a smaller army for a somewhat short amount of time, leaving you a little vulnerable, should your opponent choose to do a timing attack. Here is the specific set of macro steps I take against protoss: 10 – Supply Depot 12 – Barracks 12 – Refinery 15 – Reaper 16 – Orbital Command 17 – After first 100 Gas is mined, stop mining all gas 17 – @100% Reaper, start Reactor on Barracks 17 – @400 Mins, start 2nd Command Center 18 – Supply Depot 19 – 2nd Barracks 20 – Bunker, and put 3 SCVs back in the Refinery @100% 2nd Barracks, start Tech lab @100% Tech lab, start Stimpack Research @100 Gas, start Factory, Engineering Bay, and 2nd Refinery @100% Engineering Bay, start +1 Infantry Attack and 3rd Refinery @100% Factory, start Starport, Reactor on Factory, and 4th Refinery Benchmark: When you start your Starport (@7:50ish), you should be at 35 SCVs and around 60 supply. @100% Starport, swap off onto Factory’s Reactor, start 3 more Barracks, and start double Medivac production **The above step is important, this ensures that as your natural starts to saturate, and your money climbs, your able to spend your money. @100% Stimpack, start Combat Shields Research and begin Marauder production @100% 3rd Barracks, start Tech lab @100% 4th/5th Barracks, start Tech lab and Reactor @100% +1 Infantry Attack, start +1 Infantry Armor Push out when your first 2 Medivacs pop (@9:45ish) with 2 Medivacs, 2 Marauders, around 28 Marines, Stimpack, Combat Shields, and +1 Attack. (The above is Bombers Reaper FE, straight from the website, below is what I have added myself) Build a 3rd CC @50% +1 Armor, throw down Ebay and Armory. @100% 3rd CC, add + 3 more barracks (8/1/1) (or when money allows) @100% Ebay and Armory, research 2/2 and +1 ship weapons. Get saturated on 3 bases with 60 SCV's Build your 4th CC near your 3rd, to be floated to 4th location later.(Planetary fortress) Start 3-3 as soon as 2-2 finishes. And get +2 ship weapons. Later, ensure you start +3 on ship weapons as well. This is a general guide to how I macro up to a maxed out Terran army, leaving out for simplicity, my army composition, tech, and adjustments to scouting etc etc. I generally get a ghost academy later on on 3 base or sooner on 2 base depending on what Protoss is doing. I have also left out when and why I get a second starport. This is something I almost always do on 3 base, or sooner, if the colossus count has swelled early on. Lastly, as a rule of thumb, this is what your infrastructure will be as a bio player: 1base: 3/1/1 2base: 5/1/1 3base: 8/1/2 Of course if you don't expand and sit on one base, adding up to 5 total barracks will help you spend your money. Understand that it's only 3/1/1, because the other money is tied up in expanding/tech and upgrades :D. That is why one base plays can go heavier on infrastructure. Getting 5 rax on one base is generally bad, unless your going all-in. If the protoss defends and he has an expansion, it's pretty much game over, all things being equal of course. I command you to also read the below linked thread. : ) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/433514-sc2-notes-how-to-plan-a-strategy[/i] Very important to have a well thought out plan. On April 19 2014 03:05 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: I watched the 1st 3 games, the 4th one u wrote like u won this game so I didn't watch. I'll try to help from my Protoss perspective, my points are common for all the 3 games I watched. Watched all the games from the Protoss perspective, and I thought to myself: Why is your army is always so small? -Is it the macro? while your macro isn't perfect (few saturation problems, late production, etc) i'll have to disagree here with Dan. the macro isn't the problem here. Every game you heavily outmacroed your opponent and took over half the map while the opponent was struggling to keep the 4th alive. While I do think you had little too many SCV's, I don't think it's the issue here. -Is it the control? Didn't see any glaring errors in your control, unless it is an all in scenario which non of the games are, a marine here or there won't change the outcome. -Is it the decision making? Well, you seem to harass, drop, split your army for the sake of harassing, without real target. The 2 main issues here are: 1. You will have to sooner or later face the Protoss army, and you DO NOT want it to be maxed with 5 Colossi and 10 HT when he will be looking for a fight, so you must work towards a finishing blow that will come before that. Look to snipe opponent tech, economy, upgrades and try to strike before he has the chance to rebuild it with a massive army. What happens in your games is that every time the Protoss goes on an attack, 2 thirds of your army is running around fighting cannons, and before that, you just throw bunch of drops which don't even put a dent on his army, which leads me to point number 2. 2. You treat your units as crap. I would hate to be a marine in your army. Treat every drop as a little Sparta squad that will give you profit as long as they alive. Don't throw them all at the meat grinder as soon as you think they served their purpose. The threat of a full double Medivacs that can any second drop you is sometimes stronger than the drop itself. So in conclusion, what happens here is that you work so much on spreading the Protoss thin that you spread yourself thinner, and when the untouched Protoss army finally moves out, a large chunk of your army is out of position and the Protoss can happily march into your production. What? "Heavily outmacroed your opponent"? If that Protoss player was any good, he would have denied all of those expansions with some basic map presence and zealot warp-ins or some similar harassing options. Mass expanding without a well built army, nor the means to properly produce and reproduce it is not "outmacroing". Don't be stupid. I do however ApocAlypsE007, agree with your point about his army composition, size and movements lacking finesse or good decision making. I agree there wholeheartedly. But having massive income with no means in which to effectively spend it is not good macro at all. | ||
ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
On April 19 2014 04:29 Dan26 wrote: What? "Heavily outmacroed your opponent"? If that Protoss player was any good, he would have denied all of those expansions with some basic map presence and zealot warp-ins or some similar harassing options. Mass expanding without a well built army, nor the means to properly produce and reproduce it is not "outmacroing". Don't be stupid. I do however ApocAlypsE007, agree with your point about his army composition, size and movements lacking finesse or good decision making. I agree there wholeheartedly. But having massive income with no means in which to effectively spend it is not good macro at all. He was ahead in supply all game long against all his opponents, most of the time 30, if not 50 at times. He pretty much kept up with the Protoss upgrades, he kept his money low as much as the opponents. He could at points just take his entire army and blast the Protoss front door. His macro needs work and so is the opponents (and I am a Protoss player so I can't advice much on that), but even with great macro with that form of play he wont achieve much. As for the expansions, let the problems come to him when he reaches a higher level of play. I think it is better to over expand than under expand. | ||
Emporium
England162 Posts
On April 19 2014 06:43 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Show nested quote + On April 19 2014 04:29 Dan26 wrote: What? "Heavily outmacroed your opponent"? If that Protoss player was any good, he would have denied all of those expansions with some basic map presence and zealot warp-ins or some similar harassing options. Mass expanding without a well built army, nor the means to properly produce and reproduce it is not "outmacroing". Don't be stupid. I do however ApocAlypsE007, agree with your point about his army composition, size and movements lacking finesse or good decision making. I agree there wholeheartedly. But having massive income with no means in which to effectively spend it is not good macro at all. He was ahead in supply all game long against all his opponents, most of the time 30, if not 50 at times. He pretty much kept up with the Protoss upgrades, he kept his money low as much as the opponents. He could at points just take his entire army and blast the Protoss front door. His macro needs work and so is the opponents (and I am a Protoss player so I can't advice much on that), but even with great macro with that form of play he wont achieve much. As for the expansions, let the problems come to him when he reaches a higher level of play. I think it is better to over expand than under expand. That's incorrect; At its very basic point, he is at a level where he isn't spending the money he is earning and when he is ahead he doesn't scout well enough to punish. So he has 2 options either suddenly gain a shitton of experience and knowhow as to when he can hit timings and keep his money low, or he has to go into each and every game he plays with a build order that is suitable for his skill. This will mean he will then naturally progress to a higher level when he can execute this well and gain an understanding of when to push (which only comes with experience) from that build. And then move to build orders that will better suit his level as he progresses. I am now low masters, and all I have done his understand a build or 2/3. Until i get to a level where it didn't work as effectively and then move onto a build which better suited the meta and level i was at. Its tough to know what is best at the start, its why lots of streams and guys will suggest builds that just keep your money low and make you build units, i would just add another element to that, knowing what your good at and try and incorporate this in as well. | ||
Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
"-If i harass successfully and do damage he will start SPAMMING CANNONS to negate drops and then get a late game army and a-move and kill me" pm me if you want to discuss this topic, because this is the most important part of losing PvT and always will be In SC1 it was vultures, because the maps dictated that Terran was capable of going mech from the high ground in their main or TvP became really hard due to 10/15 1 pylon goon range In SC2 it really went more towards medivac drops where the dropship and medivac were brought into one unit, and capable of killing Marauders which I HATE seeing as protoss, because I want to make stalkers, and before Twilight tech it is fucking impossible to deal with concussive shells for me | ||
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On April 19 2014 08:02 Emporium wrote: Show nested quote + On April 19 2014 06:43 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: On April 19 2014 04:29 Dan26 wrote: What? "Heavily outmacroed your opponent"? If that Protoss player was any good, he would have denied all of those expansions with some basic map presence and zealot warp-ins or some similar harassing options. Mass expanding without a well built army, nor the means to properly produce and reproduce it is not "outmacroing". Don't be stupid. I do however ApocAlypsE007, agree with your point about his army composition, size and movements lacking finesse or good decision making. I agree there wholeheartedly. But having massive income with no means in which to effectively spend it is not good macro at all. He was ahead in supply all game long against all his opponents, most of the time 30, if not 50 at times. He pretty much kept up with the Protoss upgrades, he kept his money low as much as the opponents. He could at points just take his entire army and blast the Protoss front door. His macro needs work and so is the opponents (and I am a Protoss player so I can't advice much on that), but even with great macro with that form of play he wont achieve much. As for the expansions, let the problems come to him when he reaches a higher level of play. I think it is better to over expand than under expand. That's incorrect; At its very basic point, he is at a level where he isn't spending the money he is earning and when he is ahead he doesn't scout well enough to punish. So he has 2 options either suddenly gain a shitton of experience and knowhow as to when he can hit timings and keep his money low, or he has to go into each and every game he plays with a build order that is suitable for his skill. This will mean he will then naturally progress to a higher level when he can execute this well and gain an understanding of when to push (which only comes with experience) from that build. And then move to build orders that will better suit his level as he progresses. I am now low masters, and all I have done his understand a build or 2/3. Until i get to a level where it didn't work as effectively and then move onto a build which better suited the meta and level i was at. Its tough to know what is best at the start, its why lots of streams and guys will suggest builds that just keep your money low and make you build units, i would just add another element to that, knowing what your good at and try and incorporate this in as well. I'm honestly playing TvP with a scared mentality-> If i don't have greater economy than him he will just streamroll me... | ||
vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On April 19 2014 15:56 MrInocence wrote: Show nested quote + On April 19 2014 08:02 Emporium wrote: On April 19 2014 06:43 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: On April 19 2014 04:29 Dan26 wrote: What? "Heavily outmacroed your opponent"? If that Protoss player was any good, he would have denied all of those expansions with some basic map presence and zealot warp-ins or some similar harassing options. Mass expanding without a well built army, nor the means to properly produce and reproduce it is not "outmacroing". Don't be stupid. I do however ApocAlypsE007, agree with your point about his army composition, size and movements lacking finesse or good decision making. I agree there wholeheartedly. But having massive income with no means in which to effectively spend it is not good macro at all. He was ahead in supply all game long against all his opponents, most of the time 30, if not 50 at times. He pretty much kept up with the Protoss upgrades, he kept his money low as much as the opponents. He could at points just take his entire army and blast the Protoss front door. His macro needs work and so is the opponents (and I am a Protoss player so I can't advice much on that), but even with great macro with that form of play he wont achieve much. As for the expansions, let the problems come to him when he reaches a higher level of play. I think it is better to over expand than under expand. That's incorrect; At its very basic point, he is at a level where he isn't spending the money he is earning and when he is ahead he doesn't scout well enough to punish. So he has 2 options either suddenly gain a shitton of experience and knowhow as to when he can hit timings and keep his money low, or he has to go into each and every game he plays with a build order that is suitable for his skill. This will mean he will then naturally progress to a higher level when he can execute this well and gain an understanding of when to push (which only comes with experience) from that build. And then move to build orders that will better suit his level as he progresses. I am now low masters, and all I have done his understand a build or 2/3. Until i get to a level where it didn't work as effectively and then move onto a build which better suited the meta and level i was at. Its tough to know what is best at the start, its why lots of streams and guys will suggest builds that just keep your money low and make you build units, i would just add another element to that, knowing what your good at and try and incorporate this in as well. I'm honestly playing TvP with a scared mentality-> If i don't have greater economy than him he will just streamroll me... That mentality is really poisonous. You should be able to do just fine with a regular build, but you seem to be struggling even after getting away with a greedy build. Greedy play is supposed to give you an advantage rather than patch one of your weaknesses. So what you should really be worried about is your poor economy management and resource allocation - start by fixing your scv count, building barracks at the right time so that you don't float at 1k minerals, and watching some replays or streams to improve your army composition as well. While I don't think you should completely ignore the late game, you could probably learn a lot by just working on a well-timed scv pull against colossi imo, | ||
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On April 19 2014 17:28 vhapter wrote: Show nested quote + On April 19 2014 15:56 MrInocence wrote: On April 19 2014 08:02 Emporium wrote: On April 19 2014 06:43 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: On April 19 2014 04:29 Dan26 wrote: What? "Heavily outmacroed your opponent"? If that Protoss player was any good, he would have denied all of those expansions with some basic map presence and zealot warp-ins or some similar harassing options. Mass expanding without a well built army, nor the means to properly produce and reproduce it is not "outmacroing". Don't be stupid. I do however ApocAlypsE007, agree with your point about his army composition, size and movements lacking finesse or good decision making. I agree there wholeheartedly. But having massive income with no means in which to effectively spend it is not good macro at all. He was ahead in supply all game long against all his opponents, most of the time 30, if not 50 at times. He pretty much kept up with the Protoss upgrades, he kept his money low as much as the opponents. He could at points just take his entire army and blast the Protoss front door. His macro needs work and so is the opponents (and I am a Protoss player so I can't advice much on that), but even with great macro with that form of play he wont achieve much. As for the expansions, let the problems come to him when he reaches a higher level of play. I think it is better to over expand than under expand. That's incorrect; At its very basic point, he is at a level where he isn't spending the money he is earning and when he is ahead he doesn't scout well enough to punish. So he has 2 options either suddenly gain a shitton of experience and knowhow as to when he can hit timings and keep his money low, or he has to go into each and every game he plays with a build order that is suitable for his skill. This will mean he will then naturally progress to a higher level when he can execute this well and gain an understanding of when to push (which only comes with experience) from that build. And then move to build orders that will better suit his level as he progresses. I am now low masters, and all I have done his understand a build or 2/3. Until i get to a level where it didn't work as effectively and then move onto a build which better suited the meta and level i was at. Its tough to know what is best at the start, its why lots of streams and guys will suggest builds that just keep your money low and make you build units, i would just add another element to that, knowing what your good at and try and incorporate this in as well. I'm honestly playing TvP with a scared mentality-> If i don't have greater economy than him he will just streamroll me... That mentality is really poisonous. You should be able to do just fine with a regular build, but you seem to be struggling even after getting away with a greedy build. Greedy play is supposed to give you an advantage rather than patch one of your weaknesses. So what you should really be worried about is your poor economy management and resource allocation - start by fixing your scv count, building barracks at the right time so that you don't float at 1k minerals, and watching some replays or streams to improve your army composition as well. While I don't think you should completely ignore the late game, you could probably learn a lot by just working on a well-timed scv pull against colossi imo, It feels like there's no way to "catch" protoss off guard and straight up win a game the way that protoss can catch a terran offguard and completely win a game. This can be done with dts (in various scenarios), storm, simply making colossi, etc. | ||
Dan26
Australia239 Posts
You would have at the 10:00 minute mark: 2 Medivacs, 2 Marauders, around 28 Marines, Stimpack, Combat Shields, and +1 Attack. Your build had: 7 Marauders, and 16 Marines with stim only just finishing. Get your head around a decent practiced build order, and stop doing shit on the fly, your factory was way way late, and your ebays just sat there for almost a full minute doing nothing. Every building must have a purpose, and there should be no redundancy in your build. Also: Your medivac count was way too low. You overmade vikings. You needed like 15+ ghosts in the mid game to deal with the amount of HT he had, you only had like 3-4. Having superior supply and upgrades means nothing if you can't properly deal with HT and colossus. Watch this video: TvP The importance of having Ghosts in a late-game Terran composition If you want help to trade better against a Protoss army, it all starts with your BUILD ORDER. Your army strength and composition largely relies on the efficiency of your opener, not getting every expansion on the map and dancing around the army because you can't fight it. And when you do finally decide to fight it, you get stormed to death. Please re-read my previous posts and take heed. Do your homework before your next ladder session and I promise you'll improve. | ||
Quateras
Germany867 Posts
On April 19 2014 18:25 Dan26 wrote: I watched the game on Yeonsu. Wanted to point out something. If you did this build: http://imbabuilds.com/hots-terran/hots-tvp/tvp-bombers-reaper-fe/ You would have at the 10:00 minute mark: 2 Medivacs, 2 Marauders, around 28 Marines, Stimpack, Combat Shields, and +1 Attack. Your build had: 7 Marauders, and 16 Marines with stim only just finishing. Get your head around a decent practiced build order, and stop doing shit on the fly, your factory was way way late, and your ebays just sat there for almost a full minute doing nothing. Every building must have a purpose, and there should be no redundancy in your build. Also: Your medivac count was way too low. You overmade vikings. You needed like 15+ ghosts in the mid game to deal with the amount of HT he had, you only had like 3-4. Having superior supply and upgrades means nothing if you can't properly deal with HT and colossus. Watch this video: TvP The importance of having Ghosts in a late-game Terran composition https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iwSzDxCy1AE If you want help to trade better against a Protoss army, it all starts with your BUILD ORDER. Your army strength and composition largely relies on the efficiency of your opener, not getting every expansion on the map and dancing around the army because you can't fight it. And when you do finally decide to fight it, you get stormed to death. Please re-read my previous posts and take heed. Do your homework before your next ladder session and I promise you'll improve. Seriously this, a thousand times over. Reread Dan's posts(especially on page1) he seems to be the only poster in here that realises your actual flaws. Your basics are really bad, especially as Terran it is crucial to have your whole gameplan for the first 10 min set. If you dont add Rax 4#5 (2 base) , rax 6-8 (3base) at the right time, you screw yourself over.for the whole game. It is nice that you expand much, but that isnt a good thing in your case, since your Production doesnt justify the bases. If you trully want to win TvP and step up to the next level, you need to start following specific builds/timings and not freestyle. | ||
SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On April 19 2014 17:51 MrInocence wrote: Show nested quote + On April 19 2014 17:28 vhapter wrote: On April 19 2014 15:56 MrInocence wrote: On April 19 2014 08:02 Emporium wrote: On April 19 2014 06:43 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: On April 19 2014 04:29 Dan26 wrote: What? "Heavily outmacroed your opponent"? If that Protoss player was any good, he would have denied all of those expansions with some basic map presence and zealot warp-ins or some similar harassing options. Mass expanding without a well built army, nor the means to properly produce and reproduce it is not "outmacroing". Don't be stupid. I do however ApocAlypsE007, agree with your point about his army composition, size and movements lacking finesse or good decision making. I agree there wholeheartedly. But having massive income with no means in which to effectively spend it is not good macro at all. He was ahead in supply all game long against all his opponents, most of the time 30, if not 50 at times. He pretty much kept up with the Protoss upgrades, he kept his money low as much as the opponents. He could at points just take his entire army and blast the Protoss front door. His macro needs work and so is the opponents (and I am a Protoss player so I can't advice much on that), but even with great macro with that form of play he wont achieve much. As for the expansions, let the problems come to him when he reaches a higher level of play. I think it is better to over expand than under expand. That's incorrect; At its very basic point, he is at a level where he isn't spending the money he is earning and when he is ahead he doesn't scout well enough to punish. So he has 2 options either suddenly gain a shitton of experience and knowhow as to when he can hit timings and keep his money low, or he has to go into each and every game he plays with a build order that is suitable for his skill. This will mean he will then naturally progress to a higher level when he can execute this well and gain an understanding of when to push (which only comes with experience) from that build. And then move to build orders that will better suit his level as he progresses. I am now low masters, and all I have done his understand a build or 2/3. Until i get to a level where it didn't work as effectively and then move onto a build which better suited the meta and level i was at. Its tough to know what is best at the start, its why lots of streams and guys will suggest builds that just keep your money low and make you build units, i would just add another element to that, knowing what your good at and try and incorporate this in as well. I'm honestly playing TvP with a scared mentality-> If i don't have greater economy than him he will just streamroll me... That mentality is really poisonous. You should be able to do just fine with a regular build, but you seem to be struggling even after getting away with a greedy build. Greedy play is supposed to give you an advantage rather than patch one of your weaknesses. So what you should really be worried about is your poor economy management and resource allocation - start by fixing your scv count, building barracks at the right time so that you don't float at 1k minerals, and watching some replays or streams to improve your army composition as well. While I don't think you should completely ignore the late game, you could probably learn a lot by just working on a well-timed scv pull against colossi imo, It feels like there's no way to "catch" protoss off guard and straight up win a game the way that protoss can catch a terran offguard and completely win a game. This can be done with dts (in various scenarios), storm, simply making colossi, etc. What does this have to do with what I wrote? Wtf? Please be more considerate. Stop asking for advice on how to play a solid TvP only to complain about balance or not having an auto-win gimmick for cheap wins. People are giving you very good advice, but instead of saying thank you, you whine about balance like a spoiled brat and make them feel they've wasted their time. | ||
MrInocence
United States172 Posts
On April 20 2014 01:34 vhapter wrote: Show nested quote + On April 19 2014 17:51 MrInocence wrote: On April 19 2014 17:28 vhapter wrote: On April 19 2014 15:56 MrInocence wrote: On April 19 2014 08:02 Emporium wrote: On April 19 2014 06:43 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: On April 19 2014 04:29 Dan26 wrote: What? "Heavily outmacroed your opponent"? If that Protoss player was any good, he would have denied all of those expansions with some basic map presence and zealot warp-ins or some similar harassing options. Mass expanding without a well built army, nor the means to properly produce and reproduce it is not "outmacroing". Don't be stupid. I do however ApocAlypsE007, agree with your point about his army composition, size and movements lacking finesse or good decision making. I agree there wholeheartedly. But having massive income with no means in which to effectively spend it is not good macro at all. He was ahead in supply all game long against all his opponents, most of the time 30, if not 50 at times. He pretty much kept up with the Protoss upgrades, he kept his money low as much as the opponents. He could at points just take his entire army and blast the Protoss front door. His macro needs work and so is the opponents (and I am a Protoss player so I can't advice much on that), but even with great macro with that form of play he wont achieve much. As for the expansions, let the problems come to him when he reaches a higher level of play. I think it is better to over expand than under expand. That's incorrect; At its very basic point, he is at a level where he isn't spending the money he is earning and when he is ahead he doesn't scout well enough to punish. So he has 2 options either suddenly gain a shitton of experience and knowhow as to when he can hit timings and keep his money low, or he has to go into each and every game he plays with a build order that is suitable for his skill. This will mean he will then naturally progress to a higher level when he can execute this well and gain an understanding of when to push (which only comes with experience) from that build. And then move to build orders that will better suit his level as he progresses. I am now low masters, and all I have done his understand a build or 2/3. Until i get to a level where it didn't work as effectively and then move onto a build which better suited the meta and level i was at. Its tough to know what is best at the start, its why lots of streams and guys will suggest builds that just keep your money low and make you build units, i would just add another element to that, knowing what your good at and try and incorporate this in as well. I'm honestly playing TvP with a scared mentality-> If i don't have greater economy than him he will just streamroll me... That mentality is really poisonous. You should be able to do just fine with a regular build, but you seem to be struggling even after getting away with a greedy build. Greedy play is supposed to give you an advantage rather than patch one of your weaknesses. So what you should really be worried about is your poor economy management and resource allocation - start by fixing your scv count, building barracks at the right time so that you don't float at 1k minerals, and watching some replays or streams to improve your army composition as well. While I don't think you should completely ignore the late game, you could probably learn a lot by just working on a well-timed scv pull against colossi imo, It feels like there's no way to "catch" protoss off guard and straight up win a game the way that protoss can catch a terran offguard and completely win a game. This can be done with dts (in various scenarios), storm, simply making colossi, etc. What does this have to do with what I wrote? Wtf? Please be more considerate. Stop asking for advice on how to play a solid TvP only to complain about balance or not having an auto-win gimmick for cheap wins. People are giving you very good advice, but instead of saying thank you, you whine about balance like a spoiled brat and make them feel they've wasted their time. The advice from you, Dan, and the other posters is really good. Thanks for it, I realize that my weakness is keeping up production/adding production facilities while being aggressive or while scrambling to defend. This will improve my win/loss rate significantly. I appreciate all of you taking the time to help out the TL community. I'm just commenting that effort wise, protoss options are stronger at my level. Protoss makes specific units, and Terrans make counters. Protoss does specific builds, Terran needs to employ a very specific counter-build. However, the counters must be made in good ratio and timing or else the toss army is much much more cost efficient. Let's assume I've improved and am on top of adding production facilities and upgrades. I currently have 12 barracks, a ghost academy, two factories, and two starports with reactors. Since winning late game TvP is 80% unit ratios 20% control... (Admit it, a perfect unit composition and alright control is much stronger than perfect control and an alright unit composition) Again we see that a Terran can be bottlenecked into a poor composition if he doesn't have a good ratio of add-ons, but Protoss only needs to worry about gateway and robo count. It seems much easier for protoss to switch compositions than it is for terran to react to that switch in composition (late game after both the robo bay and templar archives are down). Is there really such a thing as over-making vikings? Ghosts? Should I reinforce after the clash with Ghosts/widowmines? How many reactored tax? How many tech lab rax? Do I make ghosts in waves of 5, or in 1-2 increments while keeping up other bio production? Assuming the standard late game toss has 4-6 colossi and 6-10 HT (trade-off). I'd sum up TvP with a crappy but accurate analogy-- The Protoss is a professor administering an exam and the Terran is a student taking that exam. Terran should have the absolute advantage when he has completed nearly every single practice problem available (experiencing every scenario possible such a korean Terran with years of day-to-night practice experience), and understanding the EXACT algorithm to solve every single question type. But before then it is a lot less effort for the Protoss. (And this is team liquid so I have to be extremely careful with my wording. One slip up and I'll get banned; it's almost like playing against protoss ^^) | ||
Dan26
Australia239 Posts
On April 20 2014 05:37 MrInocence wrote: Show nested quote + On April 20 2014 01:34 vhapter wrote: On April 19 2014 17:51 MrInocence wrote: On April 19 2014 17:28 vhapter wrote: On April 19 2014 15:56 MrInocence wrote: On April 19 2014 08:02 Emporium wrote: On April 19 2014 06:43 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: On April 19 2014 04:29 Dan26 wrote: What? "Heavily outmacroed your opponent"? If that Protoss player was any good, he would have denied all of those expansions with some basic map presence and zealot warp-ins or some similar harassing options. Mass expanding without a well built army, nor the means to properly produce and reproduce it is not "outmacroing". Don't be stupid. I do however ApocAlypsE007, agree with your point about his army composition, size and movements lacking finesse or good decision making. I agree there wholeheartedly. But having massive income with no means in which to effectively spend it is not good macro at all. He was ahead in supply all game long against all his opponents, most of the time 30, if not 50 at times. He pretty much kept up with the Protoss upgrades, he kept his money low as much as the opponents. He could at points just take his entire army and blast the Protoss front door. His macro needs work and so is the opponents (and I am a Protoss player so I can't advice much on that), but even with great macro with that form of play he wont achieve much. As for the expansions, let the problems come to him when he reaches a higher level of play. I think it is better to over expand than under expand. That's incorrect; At its very basic point, he is at a level where he isn't spending the money he is earning and when he is ahead he doesn't scout well enough to punish. So he has 2 options either suddenly gain a shitton of experience and knowhow as to when he can hit timings and keep his money low, or he has to go into each and every game he plays with a build order that is suitable for his skill. This will mean he will then naturally progress to a higher level when he can execute this well and gain an understanding of when to push (which only comes with experience) from that build. And then move to build orders that will better suit his level as he progresses. I am now low masters, and all I have done his understand a build or 2/3. Until i get to a level where it didn't work as effectively and then move onto a build which better suited the meta and level i was at. Its tough to know what is best at the start, its why lots of streams and guys will suggest builds that just keep your money low and make you build units, i would just add another element to that, knowing what your good at and try and incorporate this in as well. I'm honestly playing TvP with a scared mentality-> If i don't have greater economy than him he will just streamroll me... That mentality is really poisonous. You should be able to do just fine with a regular build, but you seem to be struggling even after getting away with a greedy build. Greedy play is supposed to give you an advantage rather than patch one of your weaknesses. So what you should really be worried about is your poor economy management and resource allocation - start by fixing your scv count, building barracks at the right time so that you don't float at 1k minerals, and watching some replays or streams to improve your army composition as well. While I don't think you should completely ignore the late game, you could probably learn a lot by just working on a well-timed scv pull against colossi imo, It feels like there's no way to "catch" protoss off guard and straight up win a game the way that protoss can catch a terran offguard and completely win a game. This can be done with dts (in various scenarios), storm, simply making colossi, etc. What does this have to do with what I wrote? Wtf? Please be more considerate. Stop asking for advice on how to play a solid TvP only to complain about balance or not having an auto-win gimmick for cheap wins. People are giving you very good advice, but instead of saying thank you, you whine about balance like a spoiled brat and make them feel they've wasted their time. The advice from you, Dan, and the other posters is really good. Thanks for it, I realize that my weakness is keeping up production/adding production facilities while being aggressive or while scrambling to defend. This will improve my win/loss rate significantly. I appreciate all of you taking the time to help out the TL community. I'm just commenting that effort wise, protoss options are stronger at my level. Protoss makes specific units, and Terrans make counters. Protoss does specific builds, Terran needs to employ a very specific counter-build. However, the counters must be made in good ratio and timing or else the toss army is much much more cost efficient. Let's assume I've improved and am on top of adding production facilities and upgrades. I currently have 12 barracks, a ghost academy, two factories, and two starports with reactors. Since winning late game TvP is 80% unit ratios 20% control... (Admit it, a perfect unit composition and alright control is much stronger than perfect control and an alright unit composition) Again we see that a Terran can be bottlenecked into a poor composition if he doesn't have a good ratio of add-ons, but Protoss only needs to worry about gateway and robo count. It seems much easier for protoss to switch compositions than it is for terran to react to that switch in composition (late game after both the robo bay and templar archives are down). Is there really such a thing as over-making vikings? Ghosts? Should I reinforce after the clash with Ghosts/widowmines? How many reactored tax? How many tech lab rax? Do I make ghosts in waves of 5, or in 1-2 increments while keeping up other bio production? Assuming the standard late game toss has 4-6 colossi and 6-10 HT (trade-off). I'd sum up TvP with a crappy but accurate analogy-- The Protoss is a professor administering an exam and the Terran is a student taking that exam. Terran should have the absolute advantage when he has completed nearly every single practice problem available (experiencing every scenario possible such a korean Terran with years of day-to-night practice experience), and understanding the EXACT algorithm to solve every single question type. But before then it is a lot less effort for the Protoss. (And this is team liquid so I have to be extremely careful with my wording. One slip up and I'll get banned; it's almost like playing against protoss ^^) I don't know how else to help you, other than to perhaps watch the Pro's and try to emulate what they do. As for tech lab and reactors, with 5 Rax I'll have 2 Reactors, and 3 tech labs. On 8 Rax I'll have 3 Reactors and 5 tech labs. As for your overall mindset concerning the TvP matchup I'll advise you to listen to this podcast by Day 9 VERY closely: Before you do, understand some of the things he is talking about refer to Broodwar, but that is fine, because the mindset he describes is very relevant to modern Starcraft 2. Please listen to the WHOLE thing start to finish: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Day9/Day[9]0014-HOP3-AGoodMindset.mp3 One of the key statements in this podcast is this: Thinking of StarCraft in terms of responses and counters is actually this toxic mindset that completely polluted most forums on the internet. Thinking too much in this "if he does A, I'll do B" mindset can result in what I'll refer to as very bumpy or very choppy play. Even after listening to this, go watch Bomber, Taeja, DeMuslim, ByungPrime, MarineKing, ForGG or ANY of these players on a stream in a TvP match and get your head around what they do, how they do it and WHY they do it. A TvP matchup can be totally dictated by a Terran player. Saying that Protoss has an easier job in the matchup is extremely false. It's just a poor mindset to have. One more thing, you don't HAVE to play MMM-VG. You can do anything you want, as long as it's a well thought out plan, and has an objective to win the game at some time. I mean look at Dayshi, he opened mass hellions against protoss into mech. Have a look at this: Day9 is a god of Starcraft Strategy. Watch his dailies analyzing pros. He is really good. Hope this helps. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A 'COUNTER'. | ||
JessicaSc2
Poland123 Posts
barracks - reactor 2 helions, starport (run the helions into protoss main so he needs to reterat with any early agression or all probes are dead) 2 mines 2 mines, medivac drop the mines you need to save yout 2 initial helions so you can force attention of protoss at natural when u drop 4 mines in the main. If you scout stargate with your 2 helions just put one mine in the mineral line and drop 3 mines. If hes not reacting 20+ kills guaranteed. Works in diamond.No need to deal with bullshit protoss lategame and bullshit all ins. | ||
Dan26
Australia239 Posts
On April 20 2014 18:40 JessicaSc2 wrote: i have 90% tvp rate this season (diamond) and all I do is open 2 helions into widow mine drops. I played 10 tvps so far and almost all of them ended before 10 min mark. Sometimes protoss ggs after the first mine drop. Build looks like this; barracks - reactor 2 helions, starport (run the helions into protoss main so he needs to reterat with any early agression or all probes are dead) 2 mines 2 mines, medivac drop the mines you need to save yout 2 initial helions so you can force attention of protoss at natural when u drop 4 mines in the main. If you scout stargate with your 2 helions just put one mine in the mineral line and drop 3 mines. If hes not reacting 20+ kills guaranteed. Works in diamond.No need to deal with bullshit protoss lategame and bullshit all ins. At what supply do you get gas? And what's the timing on your second CC? Could you put this in a specific build order? It sounds really good I want to try it. Thanks in advance. | ||
Nimix
France1809 Posts
For one in high diamond I have little trouble winning mid game TvP because protoss players at my level are usually very slow and have pretty bad multitasking (I know this is kind of a cliché, but most of them have lower than 100 apm and don't use camera hotkeys, and spend most of the game staring at their base). So it's very easy to abuse that as soon as they try to take a 3rd or move out. Their templar micro is also inexistant. The key of any agressive style is having a good build designed for it and execute it well. You can't go 5 rax before 3rd mid game if your raxes are late, or your upgrades are late, or your initial pressure is late. The point of this build being to overwhelm your opponent with units, so if everything is delayed you simply have no edge over your opponent. So definitely follow Dan's advice and pick a good build, be it polt's or bomber's, and practice it against AI to get the timings right. I use polt's 12/12 reaper expand into 3 rax, push with a group of bio around 6/7mn to poke/force PO, then poke again with stim, then poke again with medivacs. My execution is far from flawless (I wouldn't be diamond otherwise), but it's usually enough to scare my opponent or to force mistakes (losing msc, losing units, panicking is he was going for blink etc). You can then follow up with a pretty early 3rd or 2 additional raxes depending on the damage you did and what you scouted. I like going 5 raxes and trading a lot to keep armies small, but you can as well go early 3rd and aim for a viking ghost composition. This is irrelevant anyway if your early macro isn't good. Oh and if you want to check how to play late game TvP, I definitely recommend qxc's stream, he plays that very well. | ||
Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On April 20 2014 18:40 JessicaSc2 wrote: i have 90% tvp rate this season (diamond) and all I do is open 2 helions into widow mine drops. I played 10 tvps so far and almost all of them ended before 10 min mark. Sometimes protoss ggs after the first mine drop. Build looks like this; barracks - reactor 2 helions, starport (run the helions into protoss main so he needs to reterat with any early agression or all probes are dead) 2 mines 2 mines, medivac drop the mines you need to save yout 2 initial helions so you can force attention of protoss at natural when u drop 4 mines in the main. If you scout stargate with your 2 helions just put one mine in the mineral line and drop 3 mines. If hes not reacting 20+ kills guaranteed. Works in diamond.No need to deal with bullshit protoss lategame and bullshit all ins. i'm in kr masters and i can confirm this is one of a few builds that have a high chance of success. on 2 player maps the hellions usually arrive at the time the toss sends MSC to terran base to scout. Toss also would have no more than 3 stalkers (usually just one) its guranteed at least 4 probe kills. Also the mine drop forces a robo which means macro play. If toss didn't sense the mine drop coming and made a twilight then its instant gg. | ||
JessicaSc2
Poland123 Posts
At what supply do you get gas? And what's the timing on your second CC? Could you put this in a specific build order? It sounds really good I want to try it. Thanks in advance. Here is the build: 12 rax (send one scv to scout) 12 gas (3 probes) when rax finishes - make one marine, make OC reactor on rax 17 factory When reactor on rax finishes make 2 marines when factory finishes switch fac on reactor, make 2 helions, start starport and take second gas, and make tech lab on barracks you should have - 2 helions leaving roughly at 5:10 after helions you make 4 widowmines and medivac (you have 4 mines when medivac fnishes - lines up perfectly) at 7 min you can start your second base. (when you have minerals floating) at 7:20 your first medivac with 4 mines should leave, you should also start stim on barracks (I usually play bio ) at this point i would recommend making another 2 mines and another medivac and from there play a regular game. throughout all this dont stop making scvs you should be fully saturated on one base at 7 min. | ||
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