Its gone from 0 - obnoxious in 3 days and the macthup is not fun anymore . .fuck terran splits its all been a big ball forthe last week with mines absolutely everywhere.
[D] New Widow Mine - Page 5
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
Its gone from 0 - obnoxious in 3 days and the macthup is not fun anymore . .fuck terran splits its all been a big ball forthe last week with mines absolutely everywhere. | ||
LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
On August 19 2014 12:05 StatixEx wrote: im having problems as well. im zerg and its forcing me to play a herp derp roach hydra style as my mechanics and multitask arent there yet, all im seeing is in excess of 8- 12 mines just rally in arcs and burrow (rightclick, shift and x) and then watch as it makes great trades and they too pull their army back avoiding the splash. I try to do all the facy micro but its too much cos hes gone and shift clicked 2 drops into my lines. Its gone from 0 - obnoxious in 3 days and the macthup is not fun anymore . .fuck terran splits its all been a big ball forthe last week with mines absolutely everywhere. Obviously if you're not going banelings the terran won't need to split (until you get to fungals) | ||
Magnet
United States77 Posts
On August 16 2014 01:54 Shaoer wrote: I agree with you that Templar opening was less common than Colossus openings, but that doesn't mean its under-developed. But let's take what you said into account, and work with the assumption that it is under-developed. Now lets examine why it's not going to be developed. Pre-Widow Mine Patch : Colossus openings and templar openings wield about the same strength and viability against Terran. Templar opening may be a little bit less aggressive, and probably costs a bit more because it needs a robo for detection. But the difference in openings is not significant. So there will be equal amount of players dedicating time into practicing and enhancing templar openings and templar play in general. Post-Widow Mine Patch : Colossus openings are much much better because zealots die like flies in this match up now. So as a pro-player, why would you spend time enhancing your templar play, when now its obviously a worse choice. There's no reason for them to waste time practicing a certain macro opening that can just be countered easily by a unit on the terran tech path (without even any addons!). Logically, there would be less players dedicating time into practicing templar openings, and thus less templar opening growth will happen. TL;DR Adaption comes usually when a race has no better options(see adaptation of Air Toss + Vortex vs BL/Corruptor/Infestor, see adaptation of Soul Train (8:50 version?) vs 12 min Roach max). When there is a better obvious choice already available rather than adapt, the obvious choice will be chosen instead. I am not arguing the balance, just simplying stating that this change won't help Templar openings grow and adapt as you stated. I totally agree with your flow of reasoning, and that is the reason certain things get developed and become standard. I'm saying it will be developed by a more unusual Protoss, the same way things like DT openers and usage in PvZ is being more developed by Avenge, or the way Phoenix Colossus has been used very sparingly in PvT, and now it is becoming more common as it becomes more developed just by a few people (Myungsik for example). I think Templar play in PvT is going to become that next type of basement build that comes out mutated and very powerful in the right hands. As I stated, it will just take a progamer that dedicates time to it in order for it to start surfacing. I don't know if it will ever become as standard as Storm openers were in the beginning of HoTS (literally everyone was doing it), but it will come back in a form where people are like "wow, X player makes this look really good even though we haven't seen it often/enough". The simple fact that there is so much more potential for the way Storm operates than how it has been used in PvT (honestly quite lazily in the past) tells me that there's definitely room for development, and somebody will pick up on it. | ||
Don Jimbo
70 Posts
On August 26 2014 03:56 Magnet wrote: I totally agree with your flow of reasoning, and that is the reason certain things get developed and become standard. I'm saying it will be developed by a more unusual Protoss, the same way things like DT openers and usage in PvZ is being more developed by Avenge, or the way Phoenix Colossus has been used very sparingly in PvT, and now it is becoming more common as it becomes more developed just by a few people (Myungsik for example). I think Templar play in PvT is going to become that next type of basement build that comes out mutated and very powerful in the right hands. As I stated, it will just take a progamer that dedicates time to it in order for it to start surfacing. I don't know if it will ever become as standard as Storm openers were in the beginning of HoTS (literally everyone was doing it), but it will come back in a form where people are like "wow, X player makes this look really good even though we haven't seen it often/enough". The simple fact that there is so much more potential for the way Storm operates than how it has been used in PvT (honestly quite lazily in the past) tells me that there's definitely room for development, and somebody will pick up on it. Maybe in LoTV if Protoss gets something like a shield battery to help deal with all the mass splash damage versus shields. We can't heal the health on our units, unlike the other races. So shields are really an integral part of Toss. I really don't like the splash damage versus shields for that reason. EMP was already more than enough as far as that goes so I don't know why Blizzard decided to tack it on to the WM. | ||
Magnet
United States77 Posts
On August 26 2014 04:25 Don Jimbo wrote: Maybe in LoTV if Protoss gets something like a shield battery to help deal with all the mass splash damage versus shields. We can't heal the health on our units, unlike the other races. So shields are really an integral part of Toss. I really don't like the splash damage versus shields for that reason. EMP was already more than enough as far as that goes so I don't know why Blizzard decided to tack it on to the WM. I still open Templar and my winrates didn't change at all during the new WM patch. I don't understand why people are having so much trouble - you just simply have to slowly push out against them with Immortals or Blink Stalkers. Being able to randomly a-move and control the battle with no effort shouldn't exist with any race, which is why I say that people have been using Templar openers pretty lazily in the past since they've been able to get away with stuff like that. I also maintain that Storm is about holding your position and using Storms to dictate what position is yours. If you get to good position before widow mines can burrow, then why would you want to a-move over the top of them? Terran and Zerg have always had to put effort into setting up good engagements since Starcraft 2 came out. Why should Protoss be able to have openers and builds where you just take position anytime you want? I think the Widow Mine change is for the best in TvP, people just have to start integrating positioning and setting up engagements with thought and tact in PvT now rather than being like "there's a Terran army, I'll just attack at it haphazardly and it's on him to make the best of it". | ||
Cool C
United States69 Posts
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
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buchaa
Pakistan77 Posts
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buchaa
Pakistan77 Posts
On August 26 2014 06:09 Magnet wrote: I still open Templar and my winrates didn't change at all during the new WM patch. I don't understand why people are having so much trouble - you just simply have to slowly push out against them with Immortals or Blink Stalkers. Being able to randomly a-move and control the battle with no effort shouldn't exist with any race, which is why I say that people have been using Templar openers pretty lazily in the past since they've been able to get away with stuff like that. I also maintain that Storm is about holding your position and using Storms to dictate what position is yours. If you get to good position before widow mines can burrow, then why would you want to a-move over the top of them? Terran and Zerg have always had to put effort into setting up good engagements since Starcraft 2 came out. Why should Protoss be able to have openers and builds where you just take position anytime you want? I think the Widow Mine change is for the best in TvP, people just have to start integrating positioning and setting up engagements with thought and tact in PvT now rather than being like "there's a Terran army, I'll just attack at it haphazardly and it's on him to make the best of it". You sir are a noble man... | ||
Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
On September 27 2014 03:41 buchaa wrote: I don't know why no one's mentioned this, but hallucinated units bate out widow mine shots... just use something with ample hp dude... Building 1 hallucination costs more then a mine. since a sentry will have no purpose besides that hallucination since it literally takes out all the energy and Dps wise sentries are useless. Also getting enough energy for 1 hallucination costs more time then widow mines recharge. Not viable. cost 50-100 gas vs 75-25. aka cost innefficient. Energy is a resource of a protoss aswell. never forget that. HT without energy as just as usefull as hallucinated phoenix. same goes for sentry. Problem with the new widow mine is that you cant take a decent timed 3rd without getting punished. There is no composition in the protoss arsenal that can safely defend 2 locations at once at that time with the sheer cost of protoss units without falling behind or losing too much army. Getting baited into widow mines is the worst one of all. its literally freekills. viking marauder ghost mine = the new OP deathball. | ||
Entropy137
Canada215 Posts
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Entropy137
Canada215 Posts
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Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
On October 05 2014 04:47 Entropy137 wrote: How about this EZ fix to make templar openings viable again. Nerf widowmines health from 90 to 80. This will allow burrowed mines to be killed by a storm, rather than surviving with 10 hp (mines with any health are arguably just as good, so long as they get their shots off). It will give the toss an extra tool to reach out and kill mines from range, apart from the collosus. You can only have so many storms, especially in the midgame, so in many instances it may not be worth it to storm 1 mine over trying to hit some bio. I dont see a 10 hp nerf affecting TvZ that much either, apart from the fact that they will be cleaned up slightly faster by units than before. Maybe this is too much and or not needed, but I think it could be a reasonable option. Curious what you guys think. This still gives the problem of energy. mine spread = 1 mine per storm I feel the best solution isnt to directly nerf or buff anything closely related to mines. Its to buff cannons. give them more dps vs air. This way mine zoning can increase attentionspan allot more. since you wont have to worry about split army drops wich allows for a better focusfire of mines and actually forces the terran to be more attentive of his drops when trying a split army instead of Drop click in main and kite around a bit near 3rd with zoning mines. Templar openers get stronger with this due to slow movement speed in defending. wich can actually punish terrans with less stalkers dedicated for defence to snipe incoming medivacs. Its an allround buff that shouldve been in the game since the start of hots movement speed of medivacs. I feel a medivac shouldnt hit 50% hp if it flies over a set of 3 cannons. if someone dedicates 550 minerals it should stop a medivac or atleast give it close to 10/20% health so 3 stalkers can actually finish the job. Let terrans get punished for flying in cannons even with early mine dropplay. | ||
AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On October 05 2014 04:47 Entropy137 wrote: How about this EZ fix to make templar openings viable again. Nerf widowmines health from 90 to 80. This will allow burrowed mines to be killed by a storm, rather than surviving with 10 hp (mines with any health are arguably just as good, so long as they get their shots off). It will give the toss an extra tool to reach out and kill mines from range, apart from the collosus. You can only have so many storms, especially in the midgame, so in many instances it may not be worth it to storm 1 mine over trying to hit some bio. I dont see a 10 hp nerf affecting TvZ that much either, apart from the fact that they will be cleaned up slightly faster by units than before. Maybe this is too much and or not needed, but I think it could be a reasonable option. Curious what you guys think. I really like this suggestion vs the new widow mine. However, I don't like to nerf things without trying to keep balance. So along with this nerf, I would suggest a slight movement speed increase to the widow mine say, + .05/.1 base speed so if Terran is paying attention to his mine, he could get it out underneath a storm with a little hp remaining. | ||
mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
I feel this would add more diversity in how to get to the mid-game for Protoss, while giving the Terran more options in building an army, perhaps this would help to make mech a real threat in TvP, which in turn would impact how Protoss plays the match-up. Protoss vs Mech would be almost like watching Bio vs Protoss, lots of action, multiprong and positioning. I feel this would benefit the match up for both the players and the spectators, as the match-up is probably one of the most unchanged from WoL. | ||
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