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On December 14 2014 06:13 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 01:47 vhapter wrote:On December 14 2014 01:29 SatedSC2 wrote:On December 13 2014 13:26 digmouse wrote: Just skip this season, it's not worth playing solid style or try to practice on it at all. Bullshit. There are 4 very normal maps for Protoss this season (Ohana, CK, Akilon, Daybreak). If you can't play a normal style on those maps then you're just not good enough. Yeah, these maps are fine. Daybreak and CK drive me nuts with the poorly optimized mineral income you have at the start on them. In PvT, my robo bay and twilight are never as fast on these maps as they are on Overgrowth or King Sejong. Your first pylon and your msc are always a bit later than usual too... it feels so weird. But aside from that, these maps are fine. Damn, I wasn't being crazy with my 15 hatchery always coming out a bit later on daybreak after all. I usually open with 2 geysers in PvT now, but slowly put guys in each geyser to optimize my mineral/gas income. But guess what, if you do that on CK or Daybreak, the reaper gets a head start on your probes before your msc pops out. The build is supposed to optimize your income, but oddly enough it makes it actually worse since it takes longer to get back the minerals you spent on the extra geyser. It's really annoying, but there's not much you can do to be honest.
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If you wanna get past platinum you can just 2 gate proxy game to master with competent micro bt you wont learn much and will get crushed by players that yiu play 2x in a row. As protoss, it doesnt matter what your mindset of going macro or going all in vs your opponent because you have no idea what your opponents weaknesses are.
My advice is to select 1-3 macro builds for each matchup and master them completely. Pvz ffe into pheonix into blink stalker colossus. Pvp anything can work 1 gate fe into robo dt expo blink stalkers or stargate. Pvt 1 gate expo into blink colossus double forge. Just Know the foundations of how the each matchups work and plays by the maps.
For example always go blink on cloud kingdom in pvp and on daybreak go stargate or 1 gate expo into robo. Pvz always scout for 3rd and if he doesn't take 3rd then you should expect an all in or 2 base lair. Pvt take 3rd when you opponent takes and know the timingd of when medivacs hit ect..... knowledge like that really helps your gameplay to improve to the next step.
Ofcourse protoss has the strongest all ins and you can reach grandmaster league with the most unskilled and easy execute builds but you wont learn much on how to improve and why you lost. Your just banking on your opponent not being able to defend.
Just watch pro replays of the very best players like Rain sOs and herO and copy their builds completely. Anything pros can do can very very easily beat players at your level. Thats why you copy them completely.
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On December 14 2014 08:06 Rickyvalle21 wrote: (...) Just watch pro replays of the very best players like Rain sOs and herO and copy their builds completely. Anything pros can do can very very easily beat players at your level. Thats why you copy them completely.
that's terrible advise. Most things pros do only work in very particular situations or under daring assumptions. moreover, superb micro is usually required. If you want to adopt a pro style take a look at the TL Strat articles (or guides in general) since they provide more insights on how you should approach things as well as outline some reactions you need to consider based on your opponents moves. Just copying something completely only works for certain all-ins. However, Platinum and Diamond have become much stronger than they used to be. People usually have builds and game plans, which will screw your whole game if you just blindly replay a pro game.
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On December 14 2014 09:08 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 08:06 Rickyvalle21 wrote: (...) Just watch pro replays of the very best players like Rain sOs and herO and copy their builds completely. Anything pros can do can very very easily beat players at your level. Thats why you copy them completely. that's terrible advise. Most things pros do only work in very particular situations or under daring assumptions. moreover, superb micro is usually required. If you want to adopt a pro style take a look at the TL Strat articles (or guides in general) since they provide more insights on how you should approach things as well as outline some reactions you need to consider based on your opponents moves. Just copying something completely only works for certain all-ins. However, Platinum and Diamond have become much stronger than they used to be. People usually have builds and game plans, which will screw your whole game if you just blindly replay a pro game. Not at all. You can actually follow standard PvT builds blindly - that is to say, msc expands with a robo. PvT is very stable when it comes to standard builds. Of course, you may have to adapt the build in case something unusual happens - for example, the terran is going gas first -, but not much at all if your opponent is doing a standard as well - what do you need vs a stim timing at 9:00 if you already have a colossus out? just warp in a few ground units and delay your gates for the time being. Sticking to pro builds doesn't mean not thinking if you hit a wall.
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On December 14 2014 09:08 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 08:06 Rickyvalle21 wrote: (...) Just watch pro replays of the very best players like Rain sOs and herO and copy their builds completely. Anything pros can do can very very easily beat players at your level. Thats why you copy them completely. that's terrible advise. Most things pros do only work in very particular situations or under daring assumptions. moreover, superb micro is usually required. If you want to adopt a pro style take a look at the TL Strat articles (or guides in general) since they provide more insights on how you should approach things as well as outline some reactions you need to consider based on your opponents moves. Just copying something completely only works for certain all-ins. However, Platinum and Diamond have become much stronger than they used to be. People usually have builds and game plans, which will screw your whole game if you just blindly replay a pro game.
Depends on which build. For example a forge fast expand or a 1 gate expo into robo in PvT is something that doesn't require perfect micro nor perfect scouting, as they are pretty safe macro builds. A 2 base blink all in in PvT is an entirely different thing.
What I think is that if you execute a pro build properly you'll always have an edge towards your opponent, because they are builds designed to be superior to any random stuff that a clueless low league player can do.
More than BOs, though, you should be imitating the way progamers react to any situation that occurs in their games, so that you know how to behave when that happens to you.
EDIT: By the way, there's a huge difference between ' getting more wins now' and 'improving' . If you just want to get past platinum league, learn a strong all in per matchup and you can do it in no time.
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OK, aside from builds there s something important to be noticed :
- to be diamond+ in NA, according to sc2 ranks, you have to be in the top 5% of the players.
So it won't be just about finding a good build, but about being better than 95% of the sc2 players in NA.
That's why the gap between plat and diamond seems so big sometimes, you have to truely commit into getting better, raising your apm and decision making. It's not just casual play anymore, it's an achievement you have to work for.
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On December 14 2014 20:08 Gwavajuice wrote: OK, aside from builds there s something important to be noticed :
- to be diamond+ in NA, according to sc2 ranks, you have to be in the top 5% of the players.
So it won't be just about finding a good build, but about being better than 95% of the sc2 players in NA.
That's why the gap between plat and diamond seems so big sometimes, you have to truely commit into getting better, raising your apm and decision making. It's not just casual play anymore, it's an achievement you have to work for.
Sc2ranks isn't reliable anymore as it's not updated. Use nios.kr instead. Diamond is the top 10% of the players.
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On December 14 2014 20:08 Gwavajuice wrote: OK, aside from builds there s something important to be noticed :
- to be diamond+ in NA, according to sc2 ranks, you have to be in the top 5% of the players.
So it won't be just about finding a good build, but about being better than 95% of the sc2 players in NA.
That's why the gap between plat and diamond seems so big sometimes, you have to truely commit into getting better, raising your apm and decision making. It's not just casual play anymore, it's an achievement you have to work for.
Huh you weren't kidding: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league
Interesting though Diamond in EU is being in the top 10%.
But yea improvement does come from picking a safe economic build order because you have to scout, have map control and perhaps do some harassment all while getting your tech up and adapting to your opponent. So it's the best way to improve because it can really strain your multi-tasking if your opponent is aggressive/cheesing.
I struggle with late game TvP because my ghost/viking control in a battle while zealots doing runbys really make me buckle. Difficult situations such as this really push your resilience and control to new limits.
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On December 14 2014 09:31 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 09:08 tar wrote:On December 14 2014 08:06 Rickyvalle21 wrote: (...) Just watch pro replays of the very best players like Rain sOs and herO and copy their builds completely. Anything pros can do can very very easily beat players at your level. Thats why you copy them completely. that's terrible advise. Most things pros do only work in very particular situations or under daring assumptions. moreover, superb micro is usually required. If you want to adopt a pro style take a look at the TL Strat articles (or guides in general) since they provide more insights on how you should approach things as well as outline some reactions you need to consider based on your opponents moves. Just copying something completely only works for certain all-ins. However, Platinum and Diamond have become much stronger than they used to be. People usually have builds and game plans, which will screw your whole game if you just blindly replay a pro game. Not at all. You can actually follow standard PvT builds blindly - that is to say, msc expands with a robo. PvT is very stable when it comes to standard builds. Of course, you may have to adapt the build in case something unusual happens - for example, the terran is going gas first -, but not much at all if your opponent is doing a standard as well - what do you need vs a stim timing at 9:00 if you already have a colossus out? just warp in a few ground units and delay your gates for the time being. Sticking to pro builds doesn't mean not thinking if you hit a wall.
I don't disagree , but that's not what he said. If you just take any replay of a pro and copy what he did you won't suddenly beat your opponent very easily, at least not if you expect to break into Diamond. Identifying what a standard pro opener is and how to execute it is very different from just copying something you see in a replay. Good guides are a great help because they spare you a lot of deduction work in order to identify what a standard msc expand (e.g) is in the first place.
edit: also, adapting your build to what your opponent is doing is kinda the opposite of following something completely/blindly.
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On December 14 2014 08:06 Rickyvalle21 wrote: If you wanna get past platinum you can just 2 gate proxy game to master with competent micro bt you wont learn much and will get crushed by players that yiu play 2x in a row. As protoss, it doesnt matter what your mindset of going macro or going all in vs your opponent because you have no idea what your opponents weaknesses are.
My advice is to select 1-3 macro builds for each matchup and master them completely. Pvz ffe into pheonix into blink stalker colossus. Pvp anything can work 1 gate fe into robo dt expo blink stalkers or stargate. Pvt 1 gate expo into blink colossus double forge. Just Know the foundations of how the each matchups work and plays by the maps.
For example always go blink on cloud kingdom in pvp and on daybreak go stargate or 1 gate expo into robo. Pvz always scout for 3rd and if he doesn't take 3rd then you should expect an all in or 2 base lair. Pvt take 3rd when you opponent takes and know the timingd of when medivacs hit ect..... knowledge like that really helps your gameplay to improve to the next step.
Ofcourse protoss has the strongest all ins and you can reach grandmaster league with the most unskilled and easy execute builds but you wont learn much on how to improve and why you lost. Your just banking on your opponent not being able to defend.
Just watch pro replays of the very best players like Rain sOs and herO and copy their builds completely. Anything pros can do can very very easily beat players at your level. Thats why you copy them completely.
I think sOs and herO aren't players you want to copy because they play rather unorthodox. Especially sOs is known for mindgames and outsmarting his opponents. He is very strategic. If you are at plat your weaknesses are mainly in execution and fundamentals, which strategic play doesn't improve. If you have more solid fundamentals you can improve other areas as strategy, decision making and tactics.
Rain and Zest are solid examples though. Zest is a player who has a wide variety of solid builds that have a big general impact such as 2 base timing attacks (+2 blink / colossus blink / immortal sentry etc.) and also strong macro openings.
Zest also shows that a solid warp network with pylons and prisms is a fundamental technique of good protoss play. Being able to spread out your warp field on the map and dumping minerals into zealot runbys is really big in mid to lategame PvX especially if you want to build up a supply efficient deathball.
I personally played actively at diamond level in the first 1-2 years of WoL but then got distracted with lesser games for a while only to find out that sc2 is still the best competitive online game in the world just since a month or two. Since I lost almost all my first matches I'am placed in gold atm. I find that my biggest weakness atm are fundamentals such as mechanics, scouting and Protoss specific techniques. I think that is true for most players who are not playing in the higher leagues because initially fundamentals have a bigger impact than strategy and decision making.
TLDR: Lower ranked players often have a good grasp at strategy but lack the ability to execute.
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just improve your mechanics. pylons and probes. all the time. you will be surprised, how big your army can become.
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(CJ)herO isn't unorthodox at all. I don't know where you got that idea at all clickrush, unless you're thinking of (Liquid)HerO, whose name is actually spelled with a capital "h".
On December 14 2014 22:11 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 09:31 vhapter wrote:On December 14 2014 09:08 tar wrote:On December 14 2014 08:06 Rickyvalle21 wrote: (...) Just watch pro replays of the very best players like Rain sOs and herO and copy their builds completely. Anything pros can do can very very easily beat players at your level. Thats why you copy them completely. that's terrible advise. Most things pros do only work in very particular situations or under daring assumptions. moreover, superb micro is usually required. If you want to adopt a pro style take a look at the TL Strat articles (or guides in general) since they provide more insights on how you should approach things as well as outline some reactions you need to consider based on your opponents moves. Just copying something completely only works for certain all-ins. However, Platinum and Diamond have become much stronger than they used to be. People usually have builds and game plans, which will screw your whole game if you just blindly replay a pro game. Not at all. You can actually follow standard PvT builds blindly - that is to say, msc expands with a robo. PvT is very stable when it comes to standard builds. Of course, you may have to adapt the build in case something unusual happens - for example, the terran is going gas first -, but not much at all if your opponent is doing a standard as well - what do you need vs a stim timing at 9:00 if you already have a colossus out? just warp in a few ground units and delay your gates for the time being. Sticking to pro builds doesn't mean not thinking if you hit a wall. I don't disagree , but that's not what he said. If you just take any replay of a pro and copy what he did you won't suddenly beat your opponent very easily, at least not if you expect to break into Diamond. Identifying what a standard pro opener is and how to execute it is very different from just copying something you see in a replay. Good guides are a great help because they spare you a lot of deduction work in order to identify what a standard msc expand (e.g) is in the first place. edit: also, adapting your build to what your opponent is doing is kinda the opposite of following something completely/blindly. If he doesn't have a good build, then he's just handicapping himself. Dying to things you don't know how to stop is a natural learning step, but attempting to learn these things when you have a bad build is like trying to recreate the meta from scratch in a lower league. And that's just wrong.
I've seen countless diamond league players who had absolutely horrible PvT builds - based on improvisation alone, no structure, no solid benchmarks, late expansion, late geysers, late msc, late robo, late colossus... everything was terrible. In fact, I think they're more common than the ones that have a decent build. I've even seen a master league protoss who'd take a fast third in PvZ, but he did it so poorly that he was always more than 10 probes behind my 3-base saturation benchmark.
Frankly, that sort of stuff is painful to watch. The very first thing these people should've done was to look at a pro build order and have clear benchmarks. If they were trying to follow a good build, they'd learn much more quickly - whether they did the thinking before or after losing to a whole bunch of random stuff. Many players in diamond still die to all sorts of random stuff because they don't have a good grasp of these things. It's ok to lose if you don't know what to do in a specific situation as long as work on it.
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On December 15 2014 01:27 vhapter wrote:(CJ)herO isn't unorthodox at all. I don't know where you got that idea at all clickrush, unless you're thinking of (Liquid)HerO, whose name is actually spelled with a capital "h". Show nested quote +On December 14 2014 22:11 tar wrote:On December 14 2014 09:31 vhapter wrote:On December 14 2014 09:08 tar wrote:On December 14 2014 08:06 Rickyvalle21 wrote: (...) Just watch pro replays of the very best players like Rain sOs and herO and copy their builds completely. Anything pros can do can very very easily beat players at your level. Thats why you copy them completely. that's terrible advise. Most things pros do only work in very particular situations or under daring assumptions. moreover, superb micro is usually required. If you want to adopt a pro style take a look at the TL Strat articles (or guides in general) since they provide more insights on how you should approach things as well as outline some reactions you need to consider based on your opponents moves. Just copying something completely only works for certain all-ins. However, Platinum and Diamond have become much stronger than they used to be. People usually have builds and game plans, which will screw your whole game if you just blindly replay a pro game. Not at all. You can actually follow standard PvT builds blindly - that is to say, msc expands with a robo. PvT is very stable when it comes to standard builds. Of course, you may have to adapt the build in case something unusual happens - for example, the terran is going gas first -, but not much at all if your opponent is doing a standard as well - what do you need vs a stim timing at 9:00 if you already have a colossus out? just warp in a few ground units and delay your gates for the time being. Sticking to pro builds doesn't mean not thinking if you hit a wall. I don't disagree , but that's not what he said. If you just take any replay of a pro and copy what he did you won't suddenly beat your opponent very easily, at least not if you expect to break into Diamond. Identifying what a standard pro opener is and how to execute it is very different from just copying something you see in a replay. Good guides are a great help because they spare you a lot of deduction work in order to identify what a standard msc expand (e.g) is in the first place. edit: also, adapting your build to what your opponent is doing is kinda the opposite of following something completely/blindly. If he doesn't have a good build, then he's just handicapping himself. Dying to things you don't know how to stop is a natural learning step, but attempting to learn these things when you have a bad build is like trying to recreate the meta from scratch in a lower league. And that's just wrong. I've seen countless diamond league players who had absolutely horrible PvT builds - based on improvisation alone, no structure, no solid benchmarks, late expansion, late geysers, late msc, late robo, late colossus... everything was terrible. In fact, I think they're more common than the ones that have a decent build. I've even seen a master league protoss who'd take a fast third in PvZ, but he did it so poorly that he was always more than 10 probes behind my 3-base saturation benchmark. Frankly, that sort of stuff is painful to watch. The very first thing these people should've done was to look at a pro build order and have clear benchmarks. If they were trying to follow a good build, they'd learn much more quickly - whether they did the thinking before or after losing to a whole bunch of random stuff. Many players in diamond still die to all sorts of random stuff because they don't have a good grasp of these things. It's ok to lose if you don't know what to do in a specific situation as long as work on it.
Alright, I think we are talking at cross-purposes here. I am with you on the whole good build thing, I am just against the notion to just copy something blindly from a random pro replay and think that'll be enough.
edit: spelling...
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China6284 Posts
I'm stupid sorry for the low quality post.
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playing in between plat and diamond this season Yes, most of what has been said (elimate supply blocks as good as possible, constant worker prod etc). I kinda made it with macro (my micro sucks) and now I'm figuring out more and more where to engage, playing according to the maps. I play some plats who go with their build no matter what, even though a map doesn't favour a certain move at all. In case u already play a lot of games, I also strongly recommend watching ur replays often. Sometimes u think that u know y u lost, but then u watch the replay and realize the opponent was up with 5 workers for a long time, and u see the times when u should have build the robo, the twilight earlier when u had the money etc. etc. :-)
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I agree with many of the points here, I think it's probably worthwhile to decide what you really want. Do you a. want to make Diamond at the cost of improvement or b. want to improve? If you want the former, pick an extremely aggressive allin for each matchup and master the micro side of things. If you want to do b. pick builds that you can watch pro players do, see what they do to react to what they see on the map while doing those builds. For me personally I'm spending most of today researching PvP since I'm extremely uncomfortable in the matchup right now.
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First of all, how many games have you played this season? Sometime you can get stuck in a league lower than your skill level just because you haven’t played enough games. (One of my accounts is stuck in diamond with 90+ wins and 25 losses purely because I haven’t played enough games vs the ladder decay)
Second, play to your strengths. I play random but for me Protoss is strongest on 2 bases vs any other race imo. With this in mind, look at the map pool and remove any maps that may cause you problems achieving the goal of 2 bases, specifically vs Zerg. For myself the clear choices for elimination this season as a Protoss are as follows.
Xel’Naga Caverns – The natural is impossible to wall off effectively without being susceptible to an early pool
Metalopolis – Same issue as Xel’naga.. An early pool will cause you allot of trouble for you if you take an early expand. (also the gold base benefits Zerg and Terran allot more than it does Protoss due to the higher mineral yield vs gas.)
Daybreak LE – I simply do not like this map but also it is the 3rd hardest map to FFE or Nexus first on. (Xel and Metal being the other 2)
Now with your maps selected carefully. (they do not have to be the same as mine) Pick a build vs each race and stick to it. Do not worry about facing the same opponent twice for now as platinum is allot bigger than Diamond or Masters so the chances of this are smaller.
I would suggest the following builds if all you aim for is a promotion and nothing more.
PvP – 10gate. Into 4gate rush. It’s old but it works and in platinum if you can get this build right (it’s not hard) then you should win most games even if it is scouted.
PvT – Proxy stargate. (Oracle) with 3 gate followup for the kill. (again not hard and even if scouted you can still win allot of games with it)
PvZ – FFE into anything 2 base. I would recommend an 8 gate or an immortal allin. (with +2) there are so many 2 base PvZ builds that are ridiculously hard to stop if done correctly it is unbelievable. (Keep in mind I play random and see it from both sides of the race)
Once you have your maps selected and your builds perfected it’s just down to practice and pure amount of games. You will get promoted and you will improve, it’s just down to practice.
Sorry if this is poorly written, I’m just about to leave work and had to rush this. I hope it helps!
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Thanks everyone, I'll get back to you with some replays soon.
I just lost a 26 minute game on Ohana in which the Zerg never secured a fourth and just went Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. I really amaze myself sometimes.
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Executing a build efficiently is one thing...
Reading your opponent and reacting appropriately is infinitely more important. For example:
I'm a Terran, and in the TvT matchup, I do Innovations Marine Hellion Expand that gets a gas at 15. My plan is to react to my opponent off of a 1-1-1 opener:
I scout a reaper FE into bio play. ---> I make 6 hellions, 8 marines, 1 medivac and pressure. I scout gas first factory ---> I don't make any hellions, I get a raven and tank and vikings to deflect any pressure. I scout mech ---> I get a fast 3rd CC, get double upgrades, and focus on marauders, tanks and vikings.
So I do this build, and I do have a default pathway all the way up to 3 base. That is I have a plan to make 6 hellions, 8 marines and a medivac, and also a well practiced transition into marine tank up to 3 bases and beyond. But by sticking to this one build every matchup, my ability to adapt and transition gets better the more I play.
Basically the build can take different pathways from a certain point, but you've already planned and practiced in advance a 'default pathway'; in this case, having 3-3 marines, and tanks with +3 attack and playing the standard positional war if unable to kill opponent earlier.
Hope this helps you.
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