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On July 10 2015 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote: 11/11 is still a strong cheese TvP. While a protoss that isn't too greedy and is reacting perfectly will be able to hold it every time, it is still a hard hold and a simple misstake can cost you the game.
I don't think its like that, a MsC in time is all thats needed to stop a 2 rax
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On July 10 2015 10:08 Lexender wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote: 11/11 is still a strong cheese TvP. While a protoss that isn't too greedy and is reacting perfectly will be able to hold it every time, it is still a hard hold and a simple misstake can cost you the game. I don't think its like that, a MsC in time is all thats needed to stop a 2 rax
While the MsC helps a lot, it still needs to survive till photon overcharge is ready. However, in some way the MsC makes 11/11 even a bit easier to pull off: a lot of ppl 1 gate expand with the MsC beeing the first unit. If the 11/11 is not scouted in time toss actually ends up in a worse position since you cannot fight with the MsC alone while the 1st stalker is delayed.
Thus, Lazermonkey is absolutely right when he says that it's a hard hold. There are many mistakes that can instantly cost you the game (think a gate and gas built towards the ramp or a reaper wall-off that prevents the first stalkers to kite the marines behind the mineral line)!
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On July 10 2015 17:28 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 10:08 Lexender wrote:On July 10 2015 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote: 11/11 is still a strong cheese TvP. While a protoss that isn't too greedy and is reacting perfectly will be able to hold it every time, it is still a hard hold and a simple misstake can cost you the game. I don't think its like that, a MsC in time is all thats needed to stop a 2 rax While the MsC helps a lot, it still needs to survive till photon overcharge is ready. However, in some way the MsC makes 11/11 even a bit easier to pull off: a lot of ppl 1 gate expand with the MsC beeing the first unit. If the 11/11 is not scouted in time toss actually ends up in a worse position since you cannot fight with the MsC alone while the 1st stalker is delayed. Thus, Lazermonkey is absolutely right when he says that it's a hard hold. There are many mistakes that can instantly cost you the game (think a gate and gas built towards the ramp or a reaper wall-off that prevents the first stalkers to kite the marines behind the mineral line)!
If proxy 11/11 was a "hard hold" for the P, terrans would do it way more often. In a TvP where both players are on the same skill level, 11/11 simply does not work. Unless maybe if it's used on a 2 player map where you know the P will open greedy and not scout.
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I play at masters level EU and I face 11/11 somewhat often.
I think your argument is kinda flawed anyway. Proxy gate is still a very good strat to use if you just consider win-%. And you regularly see it being used even at the highest level of play. Yet, i don't see it THAT often ladder. I think this is because its a quite boring strat and pretty luck dependent also because som openers will stomp it while others will be borderline build order loss.
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On July 03 2015 14:16 Damien wrote: Hey guys, can you please help me about it? I just know proxy rax marines 8-8-8 and proxy reaper 11-11. Maybe a factory landing on the enemy base can be utile to produce widow mines, but do exists another terran cheese.
I have another question too, Idk if my topic is correct, I am trying to put so much information about the question to make it valid. I always play macro as terran and I want to know how can I do to play bio on two bases only. Can you help me please?
Thank you guys for your time. If my topic is invalid, please tell me why, I already read the topic about how to create topic.
There is only one true cheese.
Early block of ramp with a "spotted" SCV running in an odd direction.
You automatically know the toss player is going robo for detection and can play accordingly.
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It's not considered typical cheese, but I play reaper FE into mine drop, into 5 racks double medi drops on 2 saturated bases, and it's REALLY strong. Especially against Protoss or a greedy mech terran. It can work against Zerg too though.
You can transition to a 3rd base and upgrades, but you can go all in with it too.
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On July 10 2015 17:28 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 10:08 Lexender wrote:On July 10 2015 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote: 11/11 is still a strong cheese TvP. While a protoss that isn't too greedy and is reacting perfectly will be able to hold it every time, it is still a hard hold and a simple misstake can cost you the game. I don't think its like that, a MsC in time is all thats needed to stop a 2 rax While the MsC helps a lot, it still needs to survive till photon overcharge is ready. However, in some way the MsC makes 11/11 even a bit easier to pull off: a lot of ppl 1 gate expand with the MsC beeing the first unit. If the 11/11 is not scouted in time toss actually ends up in a worse position since you cannot fight with the MsC alone while the 1st stalker is delayed. Thus, Lazermonkey is absolutely right when he says that it's a hard hold. There are many mistakes that can instantly cost you the game (think a gate and gas built towards the ramp or a reaper wall-off that prevents the first stalkers to kite the marines behind the mineral line)!
It's definitely a good build vs Protoss. I win with it a fair amount when I try it at Masters level.
If you pull like 4-6 SCV's auto repairing correctly, it's hard for toss to stop bunkers from going up, and then they're done. Period. Mothership Core doesn't even help really. Another Stalker is better.
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On July 10 2015 23:35 LoneYoShi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 17:28 tar wrote:On July 10 2015 10:08 Lexender wrote:On July 10 2015 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote: 11/11 is still a strong cheese TvP. While a protoss that isn't too greedy and is reacting perfectly will be able to hold it every time, it is still a hard hold and a simple misstake can cost you the game. I don't think its like that, a MsC in time is all thats needed to stop a 2 rax While the MsC helps a lot, it still needs to survive till photon overcharge is ready. However, in some way the MsC makes 11/11 even a bit easier to pull off: a lot of ppl 1 gate expand with the MsC beeing the first unit. If the 11/11 is not scouted in time toss actually ends up in a worse position since you cannot fight with the MsC alone while the 1st stalker is delayed. Thus, Lazermonkey is absolutely right when he says that it's a hard hold. There are many mistakes that can instantly cost you the game (think a gate and gas built towards the ramp or a reaper wall-off that prevents the first stalkers to kite the marines behind the mineral line)! If proxy 11/11 was a "hard hold" for the P, terrans would do it way more often. In a TvP where both players are on the same skill level, 11/11 simply does not work. Unless maybe if it's used on a 2 player map where you know the P will open greedy and not scout.
Well, all cheese depends on your opponent not to scout (properly) and or be greedy, otherwise it wouldn't be cheese to begin with! Anyway, we see 11/11 being successful even on the highest level of play (recently, Maru/Zest comes to mind or Fantasy/Rain). The fact that 11/11 is not that common on ladder only makes it much easier to outplay your Protoss opponent since you have more "training" in this situation.
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On July 11 2015 02:47 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2015 23:35 LoneYoShi wrote:On July 10 2015 17:28 tar wrote:On July 10 2015 10:08 Lexender wrote:On July 10 2015 03:28 Lazermonkey wrote: 11/11 is still a strong cheese TvP. While a protoss that isn't too greedy and is reacting perfectly will be able to hold it every time, it is still a hard hold and a simple misstake can cost you the game. I don't think its like that, a MsC in time is all thats needed to stop a 2 rax While the MsC helps a lot, it still needs to survive till photon overcharge is ready. However, in some way the MsC makes 11/11 even a bit easier to pull off: a lot of ppl 1 gate expand with the MsC beeing the first unit. If the 11/11 is not scouted in time toss actually ends up in a worse position since you cannot fight with the MsC alone while the 1st stalker is delayed. Thus, Lazermonkey is absolutely right when he says that it's a hard hold. There are many mistakes that can instantly cost you the game (think a gate and gas built towards the ramp or a reaper wall-off that prevents the first stalkers to kite the marines behind the mineral line)! If proxy 11/11 was a "hard hold" for the P, terrans would do it way more often. In a TvP where both players are on the same skill level, 11/11 simply does not work. Unless maybe if it's used on a 2 player map where you know the P will open greedy and not scout. Well, all cheese depends on your opponent not to scout (properly) and or be greedy, otherwise it wouldn't be cheese to begin with! Anyway, we see 11/11 being successful even on the highest level of play (recently, Maru/Zest comes to mind or Fantasy/Rain). The fact that 11/11 is not that common on ladder only makes it much easier to outplay your Protoss opponent since you have more "training" in this situation.
It should also be pointed out that the point of cheese is not to beat the opponent in that specific game--but as a long term strategy to prevent other players (or the opponent) from cutting too many corners when wanting to do greedy play. How effective a cheese is in any one game is not as important as when it works on the games where they were too greedy.
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i had 90% winrate with my proxy hellion build in wings of liberty.. now the damn mothership core doesn't enable me to get the free win with this build.
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Guys. TvP cheese is very possible. 4 prax (proxied barracks) marine rush is very strong against protoss.
"if youre not testing, youre guessing" -- Pobert, my sc2 coach
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On July 09 2015 23:10 Aocowns wrote: terran cheese is only limited by creativity, quite like protoss
I agree with this statement.
In fact, I find more Terran units accessible easily off a single base, and therefore you can get really creative. And best of all, if you can just keep your opponent stuck on one base, you can lift and move your CC when you run out minerals.
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Speaking as a zerg here are the ones I can think of:
- 3 rax reaper - proxy rax marines - proxy mine drop - proxy banshee - double port banshee - hellbat all-in - hellbat banshee all-in - any early attack with scv pull
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On July 11 2015 11:43 ImFromPortugal wrote: i had 90% winrate with my proxy hellion build in wings of liberty.. now the damn mothership core doesn't enable me to get the free win with this build.
On October 07 2016 18:32 Skalinas wrote: Guys. TvP cheese is very possible. 4 prax (proxied barracks) marine rush is very strong against protoss.
"if youre not testing, youre guessing" -- Pobert, my sc2 coach
This necro though
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As a T cheeser who cheeses against everyone except opponents who are high masters+, I can say literally anybody can get to my rank with a decent level of mechanics and knowledge of cheese units (hellions, reapers, marines, etc.).
Here are my cheese builds: * 3 rax reaper * 4 rax marine all in (scv pull) * Mass widow mine drops (I do this as an opening whenever I want to go macro lmao) * Proxy reaper * Proxy factory, fly in base, produce widow mines * Proxy Factory and Starport for widow mine drops * Proxy Starport w/ Liberator harrass * Cloak Banshee * Proxy cloak banshee
Eh, these are just the ones off the top of my head. There are most likely more that I don't abuse.
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I don't see cheeses very often in ZvT but 3 rax reaper is still quite deadly and requires a precise response.
I'll see bunker rushes occasionally but they are rarely deadly.
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Depends on how wide your definition of cheese is. I'd say all of the above are good suggestions. Since I only play mech, I tend to watch RuFF's stream as most of his mech builds could be considered cheese.
https://www.twitch.tv/ruff13
(No insult intended, I'm actually a sub on his channel and watch it religiously). However, they require a lot of game knowledge to pull off. One of the nice one that comes to mind is his TvT proxy factory+Staport Thor rush with medivac micro. Anyway, check it out.
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What makes his TvZ mech cheesy? That's an interesting view of it. It's rare, but I get hit by mech with pressure/timing built into it now and again. It's usually very challenging because of how rare it is I play against it and how much the opposing player has practiced it.
The only Mechy builds in TvZ I feel are cheesy are ones that just go ham with planetary fortresses everywhere and force the game into a turtle state. I feel that way because I almost always win them so they're taking 10 minutes or 15 minutes more than it would have to normally finish the game.
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On October 21 2016 07:59 Probe1 wrote: What makes his TvZ mech cheesy? That's an interesting view of it. It's rare, but I get hit by mech with pressure/timing built into it now and again. It's usually very challenging because of how rare it is I play against it and how much the opposing player has practiced it.
The only Mechy builds in TvZ I feel are cheesy are ones that just go ham with planetary fortresses everywhere and force the game into a turtle state. I feel that way because I almost always win them so they're taking 10 minutes or 15 minutes more than it would have to normally finish the game.
I have seen him go for proxy cloak banshee and Cyclone and stay on 1 base forever. Saw proxy battlecruiser with hellions. Medivac+ Mines and hellions and even more. He manages to keep a decent win rate in Grandmasters with those build but I think it's a combination of factor:
1- His unique style forces players to react (mostly terribly) to stuff he does that they never encounter on ladder 2- He has great unit control and micro which helps improve strength of low squad/army pressure and pushes 3- He's had years of game experience playing unorthodox stuff which gives him an edge on his opponent in weird game situation vreated by such a style.
Check the stream. It's honestly very nice. He rages sometimes and supply blocks himself quite a bit. But he's a VERY interesting player giving mech (and sometimes bio) a more fun twist.
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Righ now in TvZ he just did a proxy tank+Thor with medivac vs Z :-)
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