I try pushing if he is going ling muta and I scouted it soon enough to have an army which is mainly thor hellbat (which tbh can't be the case if we are talking about a fast third), and possibly when his creep spread is non-existent + no map pressence at all for the zerg, so you can directly walk to his base and siege up.
That leaves the vast majority of games, where I feel it is really dangerous to try to move anywhere with mech in the mid game.
Depending on which playstyle you have you can try to harras him with hellions (assuming he has no roaches) or things like thor drops, but again, in general I would advice to also get your third up.
On February 09 2016 02:21 MockHamill wrote: When going mech is it worth it to try to punish a Zerg from taking a greedy third?
Intuitively the answer should be yes since if Zerg build drones uncontested his economy grows too strong.
But my win rate is actually much higher if I do not attack at all and instead try to match his greed by building a third immediately inside my main and then go up to 4 gases as fast as possible.
This is only Diamond level though so I am not sure if it will work higher up.
So which of these responses is actually correct one, pressure Zergs third or match greed with greed?
Mech is the one build that can't punish fast thirds in the main. You can hellion drop, hellbat drop, mine drop, lib harass, tankivac harass, hellion harass. These can all even up economy or put you in the lead. Actually killing a fast third is out of the reach of TvZ mech for all but the greediest of zergs droning.
I should add the builds designed to kill fast thirds right now are basically bio allins of various flavors. I don't mean to suggest that everybody but mech has an easy time of it.
On February 09 2016 02:21 MockHamill wrote: When going mech is it worth it to try to punish a Zerg from taking a greedy third?
Intuitively the answer should be yes since if Zerg build drones uncontested his economy grows too strong.
But my win rate is actually much higher if I do not attack at all and instead try to match his greed by building a third immediately inside my main and then go up to 4 gases as fast as possible.
This is only Diamond level though so I am not sure if it will work higher up.
So which of these responses is actually correct one, pressure Zergs third or match greed with greed?
You can't kill the third but you can absolutely put on aggressive pressure to kill drones--banshees, liberators, threaten hellion runbys. And you should be very greedy behind it. Although that's only applicable if zerg is absurdly greedy, like hatch-pool-hatch no gas or something like that. If they get a "fast" third at 3:00 then you should play normally, cutting corners if possible. If you are using a good build then you won't fall behind against any remotely safe zerg build.
Side note: push up the timing of your third as much as possible; if you can afford it earlier, than build it then. You don't ever gain that much by delaying it, since you should be able to afford everything you are getting anyway, even with the third. If you can't, then you should refine your build.
Has anyone had any luck dealing with the warp prism+disruptor opening? I find I can usually react quickly enough to save most of my scvs but it seems inevitable that it does some damage. But it totally removes the possibility of doing any damage with a pre-stim ground army, so Protoss always seems to get their third base up insanely early and I can't do anything about it, because i just get picked apart if I move across the map.
On February 11 2016 15:11 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: Has anyone had any luck dealing with the warp prism+disruptor opening? I find I can usually react quickly enough to save most of my scvs but it seems inevitable that it does some damage. But it totally removes the possibility of doing any damage with a pre-stim ground army, so Protoss always seems to get their third base up insanely early and I can't do anything about it, because i just get picked apart if I move across the map.
I think Stimpack timings are highly effective against such a build. Protoss invested a large amount of resources (and time)/ into building that Disruptor and Warp Prism, while the searching Prism speed. Thus, he should not have a large amount of Stalkers/Adepts/Sentries that can easily deflect your push. Assuming a 3 Barracks/2-1-1 opening, you should hit him with a large amount of bio troops while his Prism is out on the map.
I am very interested in if there are many T out there who are sucsessful in the MU right now?! I was a Hots Master and i am right now a LoTV Dia player. The most Terran i check in a few diamondleauges have a below 40% winrate in tvp (this was yesterday).
The patch really helped me to survive the earlygame better, but my winrate is still suffering very bad (around 35-40%, vs T 55%, vs z 75%)!
Due to the patch very few P are now allining. Its the other way around, P is playing super greedy, but i dont know how to punish it. Any suggestions?
So i go greedy myself, but it feels like toss can react faster to that. Put 5 more gates down and pressure the Terran hard. I can barely hold my 3rd, than comes a warp prism in my base and does more damage and brings me even more behind. It feels like pressuring the toss with drops is not worth it anymore. There are expecting it and they have most of the time 1 cannon and photon overcharge to buy enough time to react to my drop. I normally start dropping when is gets his fourth base.
But my biggest problem is, how hard the late game is for me. How do u guys do it? Is focusing on liberator still the way to go? I am not sure? There are so many SG-builds out there, that it feels like liberator are not the best solution anymore. I try to get earlier ghost and if i have around 4-5 ghost i go into liberator production.
So most of my games i get to the 200 vs 200 fights. But man its hard. My mechanics suck. Most of the time emp lands and than i get impatient and attack. The P often has 1-2 storms left, which is enough to win him the fight. Same is with disrupter shots. One mistake and i lose 20-30 supply and he wins the fight.
So are there any good new builds out there? The streams i see, the T is having the same problems (uthermal, HTOmario). I would love to see some replays how u guys deal with P.
So this was a purely theorycrafted thought I had the other day but in HotS the three barracks opening was pretty common and now with the adept nerf it is beginning to gain some more traction in LotV.
My thought is this: why base the opener around what used to be done when the economy is just so different? With how crazy early mineral income is compared to HotS wouldn't something a little more like a four rax opener be more equivalent to the hots three rax opener? I don't know Protoss build orders but I assume people are throwing down more early gates when they want to really pump out units and be aggressive than they did in HotS simply because the economy is exceptionally different. Yes you delay tech but in reality the real work force of our army is the actual bio. When you get the starport tech up it doesn't really take too much time to get the medivac count up than later Liberators. Of course we like to be able to do things such as drop but if our goal was an army able to engage head on very earlyish ala a stim timing that could roll the opponent like an older 3 rax timing why not go for something that makes a little more sense given the entirely different game.
@Grizvok There is a fundamental difference why 3 rax is rarely played in TvP in LotV compared to HotS I think. There are a lot of protoss styles where they get greedy very early after doing some initial harass (Oracle, Warpprism, Stalkers, etc). Going for a 3 rax might enable you to have more bio but if you want medvacs and/or liberators in the near future you have to place them after the 3 rax you placed before. This will delay your own third base a lot while the protoss gains another economic advantage very early (unless he plays a 2 base all-in). This means going for a 3 rax can only work if you want to do some sort of 2 base timing push which either allows you to win the game or kills the third of the protoss which still is a risk because loosing too much in the push in combination with having only a 2 base economy might result in being equal at best here. Remember that you, while having a higher worker count at the start, also mine out the bases a lot faster than we were used to in HotS.
At least that's what I experienced so far.
Edit: Here is a game of Polt playing a 3 rax opener:
everyone here seems to be having issues with toss, and since i've been doing well against them recently(like 9-1 today), ill share what i do, but i play only around 2k+ masters so take it for what its worth compared to progames.
i like going reaper expand into 2-1-1 vs protoss. widow mine drop into 1 liberator into stim timing forces alot of proper reactions from the protoss. they need an obs for detection, an effective way to deal with the liberator (blink, well placed pylons or stargate), and a bunch of units to defend the stim timing, especially with the nerfed PO spam.
the build is not yet refined, i was tired and played like shit. Lots of supply blocks and was like 10 secs afk at start in one of the games lol. So there is alot of room for improvement, but just to give you a general idea.
Top masters atm have 900 points, what do you mean 2k+?
Also, is there a way to make a comeback when behind vs a muta switch after a relatively successful ravager+lings allin/push? I didn't play much HotS with the muta buff so I'm not sure how to defend properly but they just feel unkillable with the regen :/.
2k+ last season, thought this was obvious. measuring your points right now is useless because your bonus pool isn't done growing yet.
and to your question, i think if you aren't terribly far behind anything is possible. with good micro, or finding an opening to his economy, or if you manage to max out while playing defensive. it's a bit hard to answer since its all situational.
If I scout early and find out that my opponent is going for 3-rax reapers (I play at mid-high master), what is generally the best way to counter this if I have opted for a 1-1-1 build?
Lets say I have build my barracks and I scout my opponent is doing 3-baracks. I assume I add my factory and start producing marines one at a time.
I usually opt to go for Marines + Hellions with Banshee tech and a delayed expansion. However I find that 3-rax reapers easily identifys the Banshee (and it comes quite late) I am very vurnearble for reapers (they have so many so fast).
Even if I take little damage, my banshee arrives to 3-4 turrets and an expo. My opponent have stim faster, and so on. I feel like I am doing something like.. Really wrong. Teching to banshee seems to be a bad way of punishing the 3-rax.
Anyone has suggestions on how they play vs higher ranked opponents with good controll? 2 Hellions and like 6 marines vs 6-8 reapers tend to be problematic for me atleast.
Depending on the map, you can build a bunker to make it really hard for them to push through. Dusk towers is good for this amd prion is alright. On these maps you can place the factory and other buildings in a wall around the cliff. I prefer to pull some scvs to keep my marines alive. With your scouting scv go and proxy the starport. He wont see it and it will hit faster anyway. Once you feel comfortable holding the reapers go into siege tank tech amd gear up for a 1 base tank push. He probably went triple CC or into a banshee or tank himself. You can scout this with your banhsee, remember without a raven there is always a hole to poke around the turrets.
Tank push hik and deny his expansions while you go triple CC yourself and get a better economy going. Banhsees and tanks work pretty well if he has no viking because anytime the marines run to youe banshee they will eat a tank shot.
If you scout and dont take alot of damage to at least keep it even then you can win the game with this push or at least make a game out of it. Remember you can wall the top of your ramp to force him to engage in one spot. I always open mine first in TvT so I use the mine to get the free shot off and then pull it back to safety behind the wall. Losing 3 scvs to keep your units alive is also fine.
What is the standard composition against Protoss in LotV?
I have experimented with lots of different styles including mech and air but it seems marine/tank or marine/liberator or marine/tank/liberator works best.
On February 16 2016 20:25 Poopi wrote: Marine/marau/medivacs/mines+liberators (+ghosts when needed)
how can you really controll MMM +liberators and also widowmines, seems like mass apm needed to reposition all of that. And if you can do it, why should the opponent let you do that. We are allready seeing that in action, while terran is moving you see stalkers coming from the side, picking off liberators/widowmines for example, forcing stims.
You only really want alot of mines if they are going for quite a few adepts. A few mines to help zone out blinks to protect the liberators is nice. And yes its a hard army to control. One misstep and you lose all your liberators or bio dies to disrupters. The game is crazy right now and the skill ceiling is higer tham ever.
You need to constantly leap frog forward with liberators and keep the bio underneath so he cant pick them off. Ghosts for High templar and archons aswell and its just a game of outplaying your opponent. Sending drops out helps divert their attention but bear in mind they probably have a warp prism flying to your base too.
In the early mid game marine tank medivac is quite good vs adepts if they have no support. A few tanks in general really help out vs most things for the whole game. Especially in securing your third base.
The gsl games Taeja had vs Blaze showcase good army compositions and how to engage effectively
Been switching it up in TvZ to a tank drop opener and I'm really liking it. Will eventually get a build order write up (rough outline) of Innovation's game vs Leenock during proleague last night if anyone is interested. It was an Ulrena game but in general I think the build seemed well rounded for any more standard type of map.