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On October 29 2012 14:41 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 14:39 DeCoup wrote:On October 29 2012 14:15 mishimaBeef wrote:On October 29 2012 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote: The problem with the Tempest in PvP is the same problem the Phoenix has in PvZ. Sure the Phoenix is great against Mutalisks, but it has limited roles beyond that. And that is why you see pro players simply not using the Phoenix vs Mutalisks, they use Blink Stalkers, Archons and High Templar, because they are useful in many roles beyond killing Mutalisks.
If the Tempest is one dimensional like the Phoenix, then it just won't work. What will happen is both players will build Colossus, realize the other is building Colossus and build Tempests, then realize the other is building Tempests and build more Tempests since they counter themselves (mass Voids could be an option, but Archons and Stalkers are great vs Void Rays). Then someone will realize that if someone invests in Tempests, just make more Colossus and kill off their ground support, then do a mass Warp in of Blink Stalkers and laugh at the Tempests left over. This is exactly what people do in PvZ. Force your opponent to overmake Corrupters, then roll over them with Blink Stalkers.
A good Zerg limits his Corrupters and use Infestors well, but Corrupters can change into Broodlords and end up in a ground attack role. The Tempest however, like the Phoenix, has no role to transition to. tempest hits ground, phoenix doesn't... to me this makes them worlds apart He is not comparing the units, he is comparing the utility of the units. Both these units become almost useless and actually detriment your army once their hard counter victim is gone. The same can (and is) said of Vikings in TvP. Once the colossus are gone the entire supply of Vikings is a detriment to the rest of your composition because they become useless. It is a problem with their design. This is why soft counters are generally the better choice (eg using Blink Stalkers/High Templar/Archons vs Mutalisk) because they still retain usefulness once the threat is dealt with. Choosing a soft counter over a hard counter is not always so easy tho, as in the case of Vikings. Because if you don't use Vikings what else can you use? For the Vikings vs Colossus case solutions could include either altering another units role to alllow it to be an additional option to use against Colossus, Design a new unit which could help against Colossus or to Modify the Viking itself to give it utility once the colossus is gone (Eg make its ground form more useful). The Tempest has been slowly tuned in role to become a hard counter to massive units, but in more recent patches they have begun trying to broaden its uses more (eg more base damage, less +massive damage so it does the same vs massive but a bit more than it did vs non massive) to elevate some of the issues hard counter units have and to open up more uses to the unit. This is exactly what needs to be done. Not only to this unit, but to many of the hard counter units in the game which fall too deeply into niche uses. I wish I could have stated it so eloquently. And it is what I try to do here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378373 regarding units like the Immortal and Tempest. I feel like I need to rewrite sections and plagiarize what you wrote... I won't do it though. However, the Viking is better vs ground units than Tempest is. A single Viking at less than half the cost of a Tempest does 12 DPS to ground units. Copy away
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On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF...
Yeah well, as hard as you pray, not gonna happen.
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On October 29 2012 22:07 iNbluE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... Yeah well, as hard as you pray, not gonna happen. People said the same thing about Vortex. ^.^
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On October 29 2012 06:10 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: it would also add a dynamic to TvP where the more mobile Stargate play harasses/forces Mech to engage, but that would mean that Mech has to be much stronger (because right now it's fine defensively but its very hard to pressure/punish some things since u have to have perfect engagements)
also i don't understand, why can't they just buff Void rays to do more damage vs Massive units? And then Tempest can still force engagements with its long range and harass, but it would be weaker since it doesn't also counter Colossi/BL. Void rays already do bonus vs massive. They are still useless in both pvp and pvz. I can see people harassing with void rays and oracle. Time Warp would do well combined with void rays.
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So far I have better luck with Tempest vs Terran than I do vs zerg.... No one will upgrade MsC to MS if they get rid of vortex. Fungal is the biggest reason that Toss has a hard time vs late game zerg, not broodlords in and of themselves. Unless fungal gets changed, Protoss needs vortex to stand a chance. Lets be honest the game hinges on whether or not the Protoss gets off a good vortex. Its imbalanced either way you look at it.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On October 30 2012 00:19 StreetWise wrote: So far I have better luck with Tempest vs Terran than I do vs zerg.... No one will upgrade MsC to MS if they get rid of vortex. Fungal is the biggest reason that Toss has a hard time vs late game zerg, not broodlords in and of themselves. Unless fungal gets changed, Protoss needs vortex to stand a chance. Lets be honest the game hinges on whether or not the Protoss gets off a good vortex. Its imbalanced either way you look at it.
Actually, I think the main issue isn't fungal, it's infested terrans.
It's free damage on top of the already powerful broodlings and it means toss gets slowed down too much killing the infested terrans meaning it's harder to even go to blink onto the broodlords (it's like a massive wall of stimmed marines for free in the way of you and killing anything). They basically stop you from being able to engage properly and although fungal is good (needs changing, to a slow maybe?), it's the infested terrans that really keep the broodlords alive.
Against Terran it's fungal though, since marines can't run past or jump past the fungals.
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On October 30 2012 01:25 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 00:19 StreetWise wrote: So far I have better luck with Tempest vs Terran than I do vs zerg.... No one will upgrade MsC to MS if they get rid of vortex. Fungal is the biggest reason that Toss has a hard time vs late game zerg, not broodlords in and of themselves. Unless fungal gets changed, Protoss needs vortex to stand a chance. Lets be honest the game hinges on whether or not the Protoss gets off a good vortex. Its imbalanced either way you look at it. Actually, I think the main issue isn't fungal, it's infested terrans. It's free damage on top of the already powerful broodlings and it means toss gets slowed down too much killing the infested terrans meaning it's harder to even go to blink onto the broodlords (it's like a massive wall of stimmed marines for free in the way of you and killing anything). They basically stop you from being able to engage properly and although fungal is good (needs changing, to a slow maybe?), it's the infested terrans that really keep the broodlords alive. Against Terran it's fungal though, since marines can't run past or jump past the fungals.
yes, I definatly agree that ITs are a huge problem. As I put it: BL+Infestor makes a Protoss commit heavily to antiair. Then a 200/200 stimmed marine army apears out of the Infestors body and kills everything.
Protoss can deal with Broodlord/Corruptor even without the mothership (Void Rays, Phoenix, Stalkers). Protoss can deal with stimmed Marines even without the mothership. (Colossus, HT, Archons) Protoss cannot do both at once.
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I think think they are going to slowly realize that vortex is a bad spell and having hero units is an unecessary limiting factor that can be just as well realized with super high supply and gas costs, while still giving the option to build 2-3 of those units if your strategy revolves around them.
Nobody ever used the mothership before protoss started losing to the zerg endgame combo. Only then they turned to their last hopes - Carriers and voids didn't work due to fungal and infested terrans and the mothership provided a final option in the form of vortex.
If vortex is removed or even if any other counter to brood/infestor/corruptor exists I am absolutely sure the mothership will be disused again.
Please David Kim, just let it die honorably, don't give it the slow painful death of negligence and disregard that the carrier is suffering since WoL!
And the voidray definitely needs a role change - maybe gibe it an ability, make it more of a capital ship or make it the new protoss antiair - since protoss is still lacking a good all purpose anti air unit ( currently that's the stalker ).
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Well...I'm hoping it will fix the broodlord corruptor infestor mix and mass Colossi...those are the most typical and feel so easy to just 1A...I like their ideas with the tempest and I'll definitely be trying it out, but for the most part, it might just do the same thing vortex would (starting a full on engagement).
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The issue with the Mothership, and also with the MsC, is that balancing with respect to "you can only have one" does not work. The unit needs to be balanced based on its cost and effect, and if it is balanced as such then you can get multiple of them and it remains fair. Limiting the player to only building one "so they can put stronger abilities on it" is stupid. What you're saying is that you can put an imbalanced ability into the game, just as long as the imbalance is limited in scope.
This is rather like saying "oh, you can have a Marauder that has 500 HP and deals 50 damage, but you can only have one." It's an imbalanced unit. But it won't have a tremendous effect on the game due to the limit. If you could build as many of that unit as you like, it becomes obviously imbalanced. And if a limit 1 unit is very expensive, and not strong enough to justify its cost, then it will never be built- much like a unit of which you may make many copies.
The fundamental idea of a unique unit is broken. It needs to be retired. Smaller units create more choices regarding how many you make, when you use their abilities, and have a higher skill requirement for using those abilities. If you are limited to having only one Mothership, then obviously it all comes down to one cast of one Vortex. It doesn't even have to be Vortex- ANY ability you put on that unique unit is going to be dispositive to the game, with very little choice ("to get or not to get") and with very little skill required (only controlling one unit, as opposed to many). The Mothership is fundamentally broken as a concept.
The Arbiter is an obviously superior unit to the Mothership in every imaginable way. You can have multiple of them, meaning you choose how many to build. They have separate abilities and energy counts, meaning more casts of smaller abilities, potentially in multiple locations. If you lose one, it's not such a big deal. If one gets neuraled, it's not such a big deal. Multiple Arbiters uses a great deal of skill to use well. One Mothership clicking a Vortex does not.
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Can it be that they only care of PvZ and forget about terran? I mean were they any changes, how Terran deals vs Zerg Hive with constant tech switch, or breaking a defens protoss, cause the hellbats and widowmines help in no case. So how about nerf Colossi and Infestors.
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On October 31 2012 06:39 WeRRa wrote: Can it be that they only care of PvZ and forget about terran? I mean were they any changes, how Terran deals vs Zerg Hive with constant tech switch, or breaking a defens protoss, cause the hellbats and widowmines help in no case. So how about nerf Colossi and Infestors. Changes to WoL units are coming, you just gotta wait a little longer.
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if they want to fix "colossi wars" then remove colossi or rework then to where they actually require micro instead of A-moving them which any one can do... srsly a horrible unit that shouldnt have made it past alpha.
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On October 31 2012 11:17 Ballistixz wrote: if they want to fix "colossi wars" then remove colossi or rework then to where they actually require micro instead of A-moving them which any one can do... srsly a horrible unit that shouldnt have made it past alpha. A rework is more realistic. Protoss needs a splash-damage unit from the Robo, so they'd need another unit lined up to replace it, complete with new design and art. And no, Reavers aren't the answer no matter how beloved they are.
Simply changing the attack could do so much to make the Colossus more interesting.
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On October 29 2012 08:58 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:43 rpgalon wrote:On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:On October 29 2012 04:48 murphs wrote: If they had any sense they would delete the mothership. This. So bad. And of course the mothership core with it. I'm in the beta and I hate the msc. It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Plus hero units have no place outside of the campaign. I disagree, the MsC allows for so much new stuff for protoss that makes me cry from joy, also, if there is one unit that can reduce the protoss need of sentries, it's the MsC. but it shouldn't be a unit! Just make it attached to nexus! It's so silly that PvP which should see more expansions now because of the MsC is basically just a blinkstalker fest now because MsC + blink is a super buff to the class blink + obs build. You don't need a robo anymore so you hit faster and still have detection plus you can even escape with recall.
The MsC fixes so many things in PvX, I think it should stay exactly as it is. PvP will just have to slowly evolve to find ways to deal with blink stalkers. It may take a year, but it'll be worth it in the long run.
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On October 29 2012 09:23 archonOOid wrote: I think that everything that encourages a dynamic game play is great. The current death march of the zerg is so far away from a dynamic battle. The vortex is either a success or miss.
The thing that makes Vortex boring and annoying for both sides is that the mothership is so slow moving. If it was fast moving, it'd be scary and all Zergs would go out of their way to split vs. it because it'd always be worth it to split. Instead, the mothership is just barely mobile enough to get a clutch Vortex off sometimes. Just enough for most Zergs to not bother splitting because it's time consuming and there is fear you'll lose the broodlords on the edges to stalkers, which leads to annoying losses.
And from the Protoss side, the mothership moves just slow enough to make one want to put hot pokers in his eyes. You have to be within a few millimeters of where you want to cast it Before you want to cast vortex, otherwise you have to wait too long for the acceleration/deceleration cycle. It's just not putting the RT in RTS.
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On October 29 2012 10:36 Masada714 wrote: As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower.
It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them.
I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors.
This has been my experience as well. I'm not positive, but tempests strangely seem better vs terran bio because of the defensive threat of storm preventing marines from running in to kill them. But Zerg can just always pop more corruptors than you can deal with if you went tempests, and Protoss will never have enough high templar presence [to deter corruptors near tempests] unless Z went mutas first (not making sense already).
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MS is a kick in the balls to e-sports. SC doesn't need hero units outside the campaign (where they are awesome ).
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On October 29 2012 23:36 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 22:07 iNbluE wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... Yeah well, as hard as you pray, not gonna happen. People said the same thing about Vortex. ^.^
I also do think that they may are not only working on Vortex, but also on Fungal and FF. At least i see a few indicators with the burrowcharge for ultras (theyre strong enough in WOL combined with infestors, no need for that otherise) and with the new supporter role of the oracle. I don't know but the fact that they rework vortex gives me some hope back :-)
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On November 01 2012 03:14 doggy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 23:36 Antylamon wrote:On October 29 2012 22:07 iNbluE wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... Yeah well, as hard as you pray, not gonna happen. People said the same thing about Vortex. ^.^ I also do think that they may are not only working on Vortex, but also on Fungal and FF. At least i see a few indicators with the burrowcharge for ultras (theyre strong enough in WOL combined with infestors, no need for that otherise) and with the new supporter role of the oracle. I don't know but the fact that they rework vortex gives me some hope back :-)
i really hope so. making fungal a slow and nerfing or removing FF while giving P and Z buffs on other units to compensate would be awesome. btw. ultras werent viable at all in ZvP so i think blizzard not only wants ultras be better with fungal nerfed but also be viable in ZvP.
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