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So I have been messing around on HotS as random for a while now and have stumbled upon something that seems incredibly strong - I do apologise if this has been discussed before btw!
So basically when playing PvT you build as if you are going for a 3gate blink stalker + obs 1 base play, but rather than going for the robo + obs you just get a mothership core. Now, the reason I feel this is so strong with the current set up is that the mothership core not only grants vision of the high ground allowing you to blink up but ALSO attacks and ALSO allows you to mass recall should the Terran be in a strong defensive position (the recall can occur obviously before you would be able to blink away).
In terms of defending this, obviously the terran can just keep a few marines by the cliff to his main but vs a 1rax CC or any early expand build I can foresee this being incredibly strong.
Key disadvantage: Core is not invis, therefore can be snipped.
Key advantages: Core can attack, mass recall. Core only takes 30s to build compared to 95seconds for obs (inc robo) Core 125 mineral / 75 gas cheaper than robo + obs.
What are your thoughts on this?
Madals
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MScore should only move into the Ps base and not used as attacking unit
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Widow mines are pretty good at stopping mothership cores from getting close to ledges, maybe try to utilize them.
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Love this dynamic, will keep terrans honest
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On December 18 2012 03:13 Dvriel wrote: MScore should only move into the Ps base and not used as attacking unit
I agree. the MS core should be entirely a defensive unit.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 18 2012 03:31 Whiplash wrote: Widow mines are pretty good at stopping mothership cores from getting close to ledges, maybe try to utilize them.
They shouldn't be, unless supported by Siege Tanks. MSC has vision+detection of 14, so the only reason for them to be in range of Widow Mines is a huge, huge blunder by the Protoss.
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On December 18 2012 03:34 Steglich wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 03:13 Dvriel wrote: MScore should only move into the Ps base and not used as attacking unit I agree. the MS core should be entirely a defensive unit.
Recall would have to be removed or redesigned in that case.
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This tactic is too good and ruining two matchups in HotS at the moment, PvT but also PvP.
Terran can stop this with bio though they often still take damage but this opening or variants of it a big reason mech is a complete joke. Terran can't really scout this coming easily and this attack can just as well come with 5 gates on 2 bases.
Widow mines are supposed to useful for stopping attacks like this but the MsC also happens to a super awesome detector while those same stalkers conviently outrange mines.. If you rely on widow mines to stop this you just spend 50 energy and kill those mines for free.. Even if you were uncareful and blinked on top of the widow mines you end up trading 1 stalker per widow mine which isn't such a blowout..
In PvP this tactic is so good that I feel you should never do something else.. DT? No problem, msc provides detection FE? blink stalker harass hopping between the bases and you lose, cannon from msc can only prevent one base afterall.. Robo? sure, blink stalker just expands earlier and can still try all sorts of harass. Robo feels pointless in PvP anyway since the colossus transition is easily stopped with tempests now. The ultimate composition seems to be just chargelot/archon, if they go colossi you respond with tempests, if they go air you respond with some stalkers... Stargate? Blink stalkers are pretty good against that
The MsC as it is right now is too good. The best fix probably is just to revert it to it's original form, being an add-on for the nexus. If they really want to insist on keeping it a flying unit they should at least remove the detection and change widow mines so those would actually be effective at stopping this..Removing detection might fix PvP a little too since blink stalker opening would at least be countered by DT again then and a slight rock/paper/scissors strategy returns instead of one tactic just trumping all... Just give back detection to the oracle which makes that unit more interesting as well.
This issue really deserves more attention because the current MsC design is really the biggest problem in HotS at the moment. Most matchups feel allright but PvP and PvT are slightly broken by this design..
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Thor opening is the only way ive been able to stop this with a mech build, Thors and make marauders off of a tech labebd barracks, only like two are needed.
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You should also add that you can use the detection to see if the Terran has widow mines, and kill them if he has any, a major advantage, while not having a robo makes defending cloak banshees counter attacks much harder. Overall the Terran will have a harder time defending this then the WOL version, but not by far.
Right now blink + obs pushes are very strong in WOL as well, but Terran players have found a way to stop this - lift the expansion to the main and build the barracks in the back of the base so the Protoss can't snipe add-on's while having bunkers at key locations. I am not sure exactly how having a MSC instead of an obs will change since I haven't tried it yet, but I don't think it will make a major difference, even though it might make the build better overall I doubt it will make it imbalanced.
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According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better.
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On December 18 2012 04:21 Hider wrote: According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better.
Well in pvp you don't really have a choice
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The problem is the all in itself, not the Msc.
Msc gave P what they never had: non-all-inish map roam in early-mid game. Also the unit itself is pretty vulnerable.
And for a T, taking damage aganist an all-in should be standard, once you stop the all-in, you win the game.
Still, I agree that the build is too strong right now, cose the same 1base build should not be as strong and viable for 2 match ups. There must be a form of rebalance.
But, removing the Msc core as a roam form would be a big lose to an interesting new dynamic.
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On December 18 2012 04:46 Krychek wrote: The problem is the all in itself, not the Msc.
Msc gave P what they never had: non-all-inish map roam in early-mid game. Also the unit itself is pretty vulnerable.
And for a T, taking damage aganist an all-in should be standard, once you stop the all-in, you win the game.
Still, I agree that the build is too strong right now, cose the same 1base build should not be as strong and viable for 2 match ups. There must be a form of rebalance.
But, removing the Msc core as a roam form would be a big lose to an interesting new dynamic.
Blink play is by no means an all-in though. You can easily expand before or after executing this pressure and it easily transitions into ht (PvT) or chargelot/archon(PvP).
A robo often feels completely unneccesary until late in PvT and PvP now. You can scout with hallucination and you have detection anyway. Colossi are not really great in PvP anymore it seems and I prefer HT before colossi in PvT too. Blink stalkers are ideal to transition from if you prefer robo-less play, with the harass capabilities of oracle and new medivac I really like having the tech ready just in case anyway
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On December 18 2012 04:21 Hider wrote: According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better.
Source?
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On December 18 2012 05:49 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 04:46 Krychek wrote: The problem is the all in itself, not the Msc.
Msc gave P what they never had: non-all-inish map roam in early-mid game. Also the unit itself is pretty vulnerable.
And for a T, taking damage aganist an all-in should be standard, once you stop the all-in, you win the game.
Still, I agree that the build is too strong right now, cose the same 1base build should not be as strong and viable for 2 match ups. There must be a form of rebalance.
But, removing the Msc core as a roam form would be a big lose to an interesting new dynamic.
Blink play is by no means an all-in though. You can easily expand before or after executing this pressure and it easily transitions into ht (PvT) or chargelot/archon(PvP). A robo often feels completely unneccesary until late in PvT and PvP now. You can scout with hallucination and you have detection anyway. Colossi are not really great in PvP anymore it seems and I prefer HT before colossi in PvT too. Blink stalkers are ideal to transition from if you prefer robo-less play, with the harass capabilities of oracle and new medivac I really like having the tech ready just in case anyway You can expand after any "all-in" indeed. But your expo will be extremely late, same your tech and upgrades compared to the opponent. That is my concept for all-in, I may be wrong ofc.
And, I guess you are not a P, but Collosi are still the tech of choice for any even PvP in hots, and you need to start to build those collosi numbers as soon as you can.
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The mothership core was fine as an attachment to the Nexus IMO. Hell, even the model looked better. Recall would be reverted to what it once was (i.e. target the units to be recalled rather than the Nexus to recall to), and teleporting the core between Nexi would either be a cooldown or cost very little energy. Detection would work around the core, making it purely defensive. Increase its life and shields, too. Voilà, all problems fixed.
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On December 18 2012 05:56 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 04:21 Hider wrote: According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better. Source?
Too lazy to find it, but you can search on the battlenet forums on the username Rock and find his most recent posts.
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Except that the mothership core as a unit opens up a higher skill ceiling and a lot more micro opportunities. It's a much more interesting unit in it's current form.
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As a terran the detection just feels like too much. The MSC already grants extra dps, vision and the ability to recall back to base for a price cheaper than the observer. The detection however pretty much nullifies defensive widow mines, which makes all mech openers utter garbage against blink stalker openers.
Its gotten to a point where if I scout a toss taking 2 early gas, I blindly prepare for blink stalkers. Just ridiculous buffs to a strategy that was already very strong on maps like CK and antiga.
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Maybe they should nerf blink research time again.
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I don't get what the big deal about Blink all-ins? Every match up has its form of all-ins...and most all-ins are designed to be hard to hold. Every race, P and T have MANY TOOLS than can use to defend against blink stalker MSC core all ins. I open up Blink MS core against protoss on "good blink" maps, and I would say that the photo cannon on the nexus and good unit positioning prevents blink stalker from being "too" effective. Yes if you snipe your opp. MSC than unless they got immortals its gg for them. And I only open msc blink against a Terran who goes early gas since blink helps with hellions, banshee, sometimes widow mines, reapers, and all the other "new" options terran got for early game openings. If terrans are so scared of the openings, maybe scan the main of the protoss? Cant tell you how many games on the ladder I've played where a terran would've held it off if he just used one scan. (Too know its coming). Openings 1 gate robo in pvp shuts down blink stalker play, and Oracles win games if you have your stalkers and msc going across map when his oracle pops in your mineral line (say good bye to all your probes). Dt rushes pop out as soon as my blink finishes, so 1 dt for defense and another at my base wins him the game. They are many many options players can do to hold off Blink stalker play.
edit: and to think about, hasnt the meta game for toss been about playing defensive all game till they can "a" move your army? Now that toss can be aggressive early game, everyone QQ's about it?
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I'm ok with Toss having early detection, but for the sake of sanity, don't let him abuse it to make offensive pushes. That is just too much. It's like, I don't even know. I see TC, so I have to make ebay + turret and then I lose to Blink allin or the other way around.. I can't open economy game, while Toss can open whatever he wants due to MsC makimg Planetary Nexus. How the fuck is this not obviously wrong?
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On December 18 2012 07:15 Stunergy wrote: I don't get what the big deal about Blink all-ins? Every match up has its form of all-ins...and most all-ins are designed to be hard to hold. Every race, P and T have MANY TOOLS than can use to defend against blink stalker MSC core all ins. I open up Blink MS core against protoss on "good blink" maps, and I would say that the photo cannon on the nexus and good unit positioning prevents blink stalker from being "too" effective. Yes if you snipe your opp. MSC than unless they got immortals its gg for them. And I only open msc blink against a Terran who goes early gas since blink helps with hellions, banshee, sometimes widow mines, reapers, and all the other "new" options terran got for early game openings. If terrans are so scared of the openings, maybe scan the main of the protoss? Cant tell you how many games on the ladder I've played where a terran would've held it off if he just used one scan. (Too know its coming). Openings 1 gate robo in pvp shuts down blink stalker play, and Oracles win games if you have your stalkers and msc going across map when his oracle pops in your mineral line (say good bye to all your probes). Dt rushes pop out as soon as my blink finishes, so 1 dt for defense and another at my base wins him the game. They are many many options players can do to hold off Blink stalker play.
Yes and therefor we see so many allins by Terrans and barely any Blink allin from Protoss.. Yes?
You can't possibly rely on scan. You won't see everything all the time. So you can't act like you are safe while you of course are not. What if anything is proxied? You just wasted Mule to make sure, you are safe, while you are not.. Well, gg, next time I try to hit my scan maybe a little bit to the left?
"And I only open msc blink against a Terran who goes early gas since blink helps with hellions, banshee, sometimes widow mines, reapers, and all the other "new" options terran got for early game openings."
You know, that is not a bad feeling to open with Blink Stalkers against Terran ho takes early gas. You know what? It's basically impossible to hold Blink allin with 1rax FE, so I guess all opening are covered now with Blink Stalkers. :D
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On December 18 2012 07:22 Everlong wrote:
Yes and therefor we see so many allins by Terrans and barely any Blink allin from Protoss.. Yes?
You can't possibly rely on scan. You won't see everything all the time. So you can't act like you are safe while you of course are not. What if anything is proxied? You just wasted Mule to make sure, you are safe, while you are not.. Well, gg, next time I try to hit my scan maybe a little bit to the left?
"And I only open msc blink against a Terran who goes early gas since blink helps with hellions, banshee, sometimes widow mines, reapers, and all the other "new" options terran got for early game openings."
You know, that is not a bad feeling to open with Blink Stalkers against Terran ho takes early gas. You know what? It's basically impossible to hold Blink allin with 1rax FE, so I guess all opening are covered now with Blink Stalkers. :D
Hellions and widow mines do wonders to a player who is saving gas and minerals to tech to a quick blink. I've lost games against T who open for a quick widow mine play, they spread their widow mines out. Once my MSC core has ran out of energy (after about 2 envisions) my stalkers cant kill the terran quick enough to win the game before the widow mines, and marines handle my stalkers. Do I agree with you that Blink stalkers are good early game? YES. Do I agree that they are overpowering...NO. Each race has so many more options now early and mid game, that Crying about the beta (when the meta game isnt even figured out) is utterly pointless. Now maybe I'm being arrogant, because I dont know the build timings for other players, but my build hits at 7:30 with 9 blink stalkers, and my msc core will have almost 100 energy when it arrives. So if others are hitting hard and faster than mine...than I could see it being "strong" if not a little overpowered.
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In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off.
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On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. Wait Maruaders dont counter stalkers? Terran doesnt have bunkers? Terran cant build walls?
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You just said marines handle your stalkers. Your words, not mine.
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On December 18 2012 07:43 Bagi wrote: You just said marines handle your stalkers. Your words, not mine. I said marines and widow mines. My words. Your words "marines handle blink stalkers?"
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On December 18 2012 07:42 Stunergy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. Wait Maruaders dont counter stalkers? Terran doesnt have bunkers? Terran cant build walls?
Well, do you really think that wall is going to stop blink Stalkers? Bunkers? Great, let's build 4 of them and place them randomly around by base so I have everything covered..
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Also, Protoss is now not afraid of cloak banshee and 2rax, because 1gate fe with canon on nexus holds anything, while Terran needs to take into account so many fucking allins. What was the last time you got killed by 1/1/1, 2rax, bunker rush? I was watching streams left and right and I didn't see single allin from Terran I swear. Everyone is trying new macro openings and economy focused gameplay, but guess what. It is actually worse than in WoL, so you need to play exactly the same or you just lose to some random shit like Zealot/Stalker/MsC poke, Blink, Void Ray proxy, DT.. Also, all gateways timings hit way faster, because you don't need now the freaking Robo to be safe.. It's ridiculous actually now that I think about it. :-(
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On December 18 2012 07:50 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:42 Stunergy wrote:On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. Wait Maruaders dont counter stalkers? Terran doesnt have bunkers? Terran cant build walls? Well, do you really think that wall is going to stop blink Stalkers? Bunkers? Great, let's build 4 of them and place them randomly around by base so I have everything covered.. Don't make excuses make improvements. You have the tools to defend it off. Its common sense as far as I am concerned. I maybe only be top diamond in the beta, but terrans and protoss players I play against seam to have the answers to defend against 3 gate blink with msc. You build a wall (like normal) at your main ramp it forces the protoss players to blink. Making them blink up leaves the stalkers vulnerable to attack due to cool down time. Bunkers give your units a place of "great" forititude. And you can salvage them, so lets be honest, your not losing much if you hold it off or it doesn't ever come". If you kill the mother ship core, his attack is a lot weaker specially if you have widow mines. Maruaders counter stalkers, Build them if you can. You can repair bunkers. Protoss player is also valnurable to counter attacks i.e Hellions. You can win base trades, you have flying buildings. If his MS core dies or is out of energy, he has no answer for widow mines. Killing his forward pylon(s) also makes reinforcement hard. If you hold off long enough for seige mode on tanks, than you prolly should come out on top. I dont know what to tell you, but all I see is excuses from players. I've seen it held off many times, and I'm trying to help you out here. Lets be honest, Banshee's also good if you can kill mothership core, and still have a few units on the ground. And my favorite hold of them all....a terran who builds a single viking to snipe msc.
Do i agree with the fact the protoss has more all ins and can now still play greedy if they want...yes. But the problem isn't blink, Maybe a fast moving ms core is the problem.
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Yes it's the MsC and not the Blink Stalkers..
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On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off.
The exact same argument holds for PvP, yet blizzard makes these kind of mistakes all the time... Sometimes I wonder what David Kim and co. actually think when they make certain changes..
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On December 18 2012 08:03 Stunergy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:50 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 07:42 Stunergy wrote:On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. Wait Maruaders dont counter stalkers? Terran doesnt have bunkers? Terran cant build walls? Well, do you really think that wall is going to stop blink Stalkers? Bunkers? Great, let's build 4 of them and place them randomly around by base so I have everything covered.. Don't make excuses make improvements. You have the tools to defend it off. Its common sense as far as I am concerned. I maybe only be top diamond in the beta, but terrans and protoss players I play against seam to have the answers to defend against 3 gate blink with msc. You build a wall (like normal) at your main ramp it forces the protoss players to blink. Making them blink up leaves the stalkers vulnerable to attack due to cool down time. Bunkers give your units a place of "great" forititude. And you can salvage them, so lets be honest, your not losing much if you hold it off or it doesn't ever come". If you kill the mother ship core, his attack is a lot weaker specially if you have widow mines. Maruaders counter stalkers, Build them if you can. You can repair bunkers. Protoss player is also valnurable to counter attacks i.e Hellions. You can win base trades, you have flying buildings. If his MS core dies or is out of energy, he has no answer for widow mines. Killing his forward pylon(s) also makes reinforcement hard. If you hold off long enough for seige mode on tanks, than you prolly should come out on top. I dont know what to tell you, but all I see is excuses from players. I've seen it held off many times, and I'm trying to help you out here. Lets be honest, Banshee's also good if you can kill mothership core, and still have a few units on the ground. And my favorite hold of them all....a terran who builds a single viking to snipe msc. Do i agree with the fact the protoss has more all ins and can now still play greedy if they want...yes. But the problem isn't blink, Maybe a fast moving ms core is the problem.
Lol not gonna break this down but I love the last sentence. A single viking to snipe the msc..... You must have the worst micro in the game. If a single viking can kill your msc when you are only making blink stalkers then it makes sense that you think this allin is balanced.
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Guess you never heard of sarcasm?
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On December 18 2012 06:53 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 05:56 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 04:21 Hider wrote: According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better. Source? Too lazy to find it, but you can search on the battlenet forums on the username Rock and find his most recent posts. Yeah I saw this post from DB as well.
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On December 18 2012 08:03 Stunergy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:50 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 07:42 Stunergy wrote:On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. Wait Maruaders dont counter stalkers? Terran doesnt have bunkers? Terran cant build walls? Well, do you really think that wall is going to stop blink Stalkers? Bunkers? Great, let's build 4 of them and place them randomly around by base so I have everything covered.. Don't make excuses make improvements. You have the tools to defend it off. Its common sense as far as I am concerned. I maybe only be top diamond in the beta, but terrans and protoss players I play against seam to have the answers to defend against 3 gate blink with msc. You build a wall (like normal) at your main ramp it forces the protoss players to blink. Making them blink up leaves the stalkers vulnerable to attack due to cool down time. Bunkers give your units a place of "great" forititude. And you can salvage them, so lets be honest, your not losing much if you hold it off or it doesn't ever come". If you kill the mother ship core, his attack is a lot weaker specially if you have widow mines. Maruaders counter stalkers, Build them if you can. You can repair bunkers. Protoss player is also valnurable to counter attacks i.e Hellions. You can win base trades, you have flying buildings. If his MS core dies or is out of energy, he has no answer for widow mines. Killing his forward pylon(s) also makes reinforcement hard. If you hold off long enough for seige mode on tanks, than you prolly should come out on top. I dont know what to tell you, but all I see is excuses from players. I've seen it held off many times, and I'm trying to help you out here. Lets be honest, Banshee's also good if you can kill mothership core, and still have a few units on the ground. And my favorite hold of them all....a terran who builds a single viking to snipe msc. Do i agree with the fact the protoss has more all ins and can now still play greedy if they want...yes. But the problem isn't blink, Maybe a fast moving ms core is the problem.
Not to be blunt but seeing it being held off at a lower level really doesn't mean much...
The arguments you provide are quite frankly extremely naïve. Bunkers are awful against this, making bunkers preemptively IS awful because it delays your other stuff, you'll never win a base race against this (hello recall!) and making a viking to stop this is borderline silly.. MsC has huge sight range and blink stalkers happen to be pretty good against vikings..
Sure this can be stopped but it requires quite a bit of blind specific defense which is not good for the game. Timings like these should not be so strong that games are completely focussed around the mere possibility of them happening. Opening without marauders and stopping this if it comes is practically impossible, you might not lose on the spot but protoss can get a free advantage way too easily. Note that doing this is completely risk free for protoss because blink and council are part of the standard tech you want anyway...
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United States4883 Posts
On December 18 2012 04:06 Markwerf wrote: This tactic is too good and ruining two matchups in HotS at the moment, PvT but also PvP.
Terran can stop this with bio though they often still take damage but this opening or variants of it a big reason mech is a complete joke. Terran can't really scout this coming easily and this attack can just as well come with 5 gates on 2 bases.
Widow mines are supposed to useful for stopping attacks like this but the MsC also happens to a super awesome detector while those same stalkers conviently outrange mines.. If you rely on widow mines to stop this you just spend 50 energy and kill those mines for free.. Even if you were uncareful and blinked on top of the widow mines you end up trading 1 stalker per widow mine which isn't such a blowout..
In PvP this tactic is so good that I feel you should never do something else.. DT? No problem, msc provides detection FE? blink stalker harass hopping between the bases and you lose, cannon from msc can only prevent one base afterall.. Robo? sure, blink stalker just expands earlier and can still try all sorts of harass. Robo feels pointless in PvP anyway since the colossus transition is easily stopped with tempests now. The ultimate composition seems to be just chargelot/archon, if they go colossi you respond with tempests, if they go air you respond with some stalkers... Stargate? Blink stalkers are pretty good against that.
I honestly think oracle play shuts down this blink stalker pressure. Ironically, if the blink player tries to put pressure on, they lose; oracle player can run in, kill all the defenseless probes, and then just defend with gateway units + purify back at home. Ironically, if you try to account for this, you miss a timing window against the 1-gate MsC expands into robo and end up really far behind. I honestly think that, although protoss players haven't fully explored this yet, blink stalkers are kind of a dead opening in PvP because of the oracle changes.
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On December 18 2012 09:07 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 08:03 Stunergy wrote:On December 18 2012 07:50 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 07:42 Stunergy wrote:On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. Wait Maruaders dont counter stalkers? Terran doesnt have bunkers? Terran cant build walls? Well, do you really think that wall is going to stop blink Stalkers? Bunkers? Great, let's build 4 of them and place them randomly around by base so I have everything covered.. Don't make excuses make improvements. You have the tools to defend it off. Its common sense as far as I am concerned. I maybe only be top diamond in the beta, but terrans and protoss players I play against seam to have the answers to defend against 3 gate blink with msc. You build a wall (like normal) at your main ramp it forces the protoss players to blink. Making them blink up leaves the stalkers vulnerable to attack due to cool down time. Bunkers give your units a place of "great" forititude. And you can salvage them, so lets be honest, your not losing much if you hold it off or it doesn't ever come". If you kill the mother ship core, his attack is a lot weaker specially if you have widow mines. Maruaders counter stalkers, Build them if you can. You can repair bunkers. Protoss player is also valnurable to counter attacks i.e Hellions. You can win base trades, you have flying buildings. If his MS core dies or is out of energy, he has no answer for widow mines. Killing his forward pylon(s) also makes reinforcement hard. If you hold off long enough for seige mode on tanks, than you prolly should come out on top. I dont know what to tell you, but all I see is excuses from players. I've seen it held off many times, and I'm trying to help you out here. Lets be honest, Banshee's also good if you can kill mothership core, and still have a few units on the ground. And my favorite hold of them all....a terran who builds a single viking to snipe msc. Do i agree with the fact the protoss has more all ins and can now still play greedy if they want...yes. But the problem isn't blink, Maybe a fast moving ms core is the problem. Not to be blunt but seeing it being held off at a lower level really doesn't mean much... The arguments you provide are quite frankly extremely naïve. Bunkers are awful against this, making bunkers preemptively IS awful because it delays your other stuff, you'll never win a base race against this (hello recall!) and making a viking to stop this is borderline silly.. MsC has huge sight range and blink stalkers happen to be pretty good against vikings.. Sure this can be stopped but it requires quite a bit of blind specific defense which is not good for the game. Timings like these should not be so strong that games are completely focussed around the mere possibility of them happening. Opening without marauders and stopping this if it comes is practically impossible, you might not lose on the spot but protoss can get a free advantage way too easily. Note that doing this is completely risk free for protoss because blink and council are part of the standard tech you want anyway... Thank you Markwerf for having valid information instead of just flaming my arguements to the post. I do agree with everything you say except that it is "risk" free. Sure recall on the mothership does take away most of the risk, but it still requires good timing, and control for the protoss player to be effective. I agree match ups should'nt be built around timings but hasnt wol meta game for PVT been revolved around the stim/medivac push at 9:30? And lots of PVZ strategies revolve around holding off some sort of lair tech aggression around the 11-13 min mark? I think its impossible to remove all these "timings" from standard play. I never said its not a very strong all in as some people are claiming I have, I am stating that it is hold able, and nerfing blink isnt the problem. I think the mothership core is the problem behind this, because it is the whole reason why this build doesn't come with much risk (recall) and the fact the follow up of a darkshrine is very strong due to the low cost of the structure now.
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On December 18 2012 04:01 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 03:34 Steglich wrote:On December 18 2012 03:13 Dvriel wrote: MScore should only move into the Ps base and not used as attacking unit I agree. the MS core should be entirely a defensive unit. Recall would have to be removed or redesigned in that case.
Global cast range, teleports units in the radius to the mothership core?
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On December 18 2012 09:50 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 04:01 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 18 2012 03:34 Steglich wrote:On December 18 2012 03:13 Dvriel wrote: MScore should only move into the Ps base and not used as attacking unit I agree. the MS core should be entirely a defensive unit. Recall would have to be removed or redesigned in that case. Global cast range, teleports units in the radius to the mothership core? Why not make recall like a nydus network, The mothership core transforms into a "teleporter" , the units have to run through the teleporter, after the selected units go through the mothership core, it gets destroyed. So it cost the mothership core to use, and if you snipe the core before all the units are through, you lose your units. And no matter what protoss loses mothership core, and the units have to be micro'd into the ms core. Takes more skill than hitting a recall key and a nexus. You have to do that now, and have all your units make it to the core.
For envision, make the mother ship core plant into the ground as a detection tower, after the detection runs out either have the mothership auto explode or just resume to normal, and for the nexus cannon, make it get implanted on the nexus like it was before. Their for abilities cant be stacked, and you have to make wiser decisions when to use your spells.
This would fix everyones problem with blink stalker all ins, if you force an envision, he loses high ground vision, and a mobile dectector, If you force a recall, he loses mothership and will lose more units trying to get them to the teleporter.
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I really think the MSC should only be able to move within power radii.
Recall would need to go back to the old-school method, but I'd kind of like that anyway.
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On December 18 2012 04:43 -MoOsE- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 04:21 Hider wrote: According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better. Well in pvp you don't really have a choice You can actually defend the PvP version quite fine, but Terran doesn't have a Mothership Core of their own...
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On December 18 2012 10:01 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. It's actually really easy to deal with a Blink Stalker all-in if you scout it and respond properly. The reason it is so strong in WoL is because Terran players are so unwilling to waste MULEs on scans, and are so unwilling to abandon their natural expansion even though a 1 Base Terran > 1 Base Protoss... ... Same applies to this, although it is slightly harder to scout now that only one tech building is required to pull it off. Are you seriously implying that scans are a reliable way to scout your opponents tech?
In WoL it largely boils down to control and the map. If you open 1rax FE, you can't just float back to your main and assume you are ahead, your opener already puts you in a bad spot to defend the all-in. Stuff like observer snipes can be crucial in successfully defending.
If you think its just a matter of floating your natural back to your base in HOTS too, you are completely ignoring how the strat got buffed in pretty much every aspect, not just the scouting.
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Reduce the MsCs vision to 5 or 6, let it keep everything else. Now it would have to fly in WM range to spot.
This also works well with the concept of the MSC beeing a defensive unit mostly, becaue your buildings give you vision anyway,
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The biggest issue I see with the MsC over an observer is simple the lack of invisibility. This is the key area a terran player COULD utilise to deny the push by sniping it before the blink goes down. The problem with this though is the vision range of the MsC as it then becomes easy to avoid damage and to pull back if it doesn't look good.
Should the terran be able to hold though, the protoss player will obviously be in a very strong position due to the advantage economically.
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On December 18 2012 04:06 Markwerf wrote: Removing detection might fix PvP a little too since blink stalker opening would at least be countered by DT again
That's a point of detail, but sorry, DTs does not counter blink. All the blink player has to do is to ruin your economy while dropping a proxy robo somewhere he has a pylon, make an obs, and base trade. He can easily win.
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On December 18 2012 10:01 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. It's actually really easy to deal with a Blink Stalker all-in if you scout it and respond properly. The reason it is so strong in WoL is because Terran players are so unwilling to waste MULEs on scans, and are so unwilling to abandon their natural expansion even though a 1 Base Terran > 1 Base Protoss... ... Same applies to this, although it is slightly harder to scout now that only one tech building is required to pull it off. Right, like when Taeja scouted Heros blink at dream hack, he held it with ease....
Show me a pro game where Terran wins with 1 rax fe into 3 rax and I will show you three more of them losing.
Sated believes it is "really easy" if you know it is coming. If you abandon your natural. Again, Taeja did lift his natural. Also, Gumiho vs MC. I can find a dozen more where codes S terrans lifted their natural and lost. The statement that "1 base terran is greater than 1 base Protoss is not correct.
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On December 19 2012 00:57 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 10:01 Sated wrote:On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. It's actually really easy to deal with a Blink Stalker all-in if you scout it and respond properly. The reason it is so strong in WoL is because Terran players are so unwilling to waste MULEs on scans, and are so unwilling to abandon their natural expansion even though a 1 Base Terran > 1 Base Protoss... ... Same applies to this, although it is slightly harder to scout now that only one tech building is required to pull it off. Right, like when Taeja scouted Heros blink at dream hack, he held it with ease.... Show me a pro game where Terran wins with 1 rax fe into 3 rax and I will show you three more of them losing. Sated believes it is "really easy" if you know it is coming. If you abandon your natural. Again, Taeja did lift his natural. Also, Gumiho vs MC. I can find a dozen more where codes S terrans lifted their natural and lost. The statement that "1 base terran is greater than 1 base Protoss is not correct. 1 gate fe isn't suppose to hold blink all in, blink all in is suppose to punish standard meta game play.
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just nerf the blink research timing so that it takes longer to research. not that hard a fix tbh.
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I find it hard to imagine that this can't be stopped efficiently in PvP. Just FE, use nexus cannon, and have more stuff than they do.
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On December 19 2012 01:05 Stunergy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 00:57 U_G_L_Y wrote:On December 18 2012 10:01 Sated wrote:On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. It's actually really easy to deal with a Blink Stalker all-in if you scout it and respond properly. The reason it is so strong in WoL is because Terran players are so unwilling to waste MULEs on scans, and are so unwilling to abandon their natural expansion even though a 1 Base Terran > 1 Base Protoss... ... Same applies to this, although it is slightly harder to scout now that only one tech building is required to pull it off. Right, like when Taeja scouted Heros blink at dream hack, he held it with ease.... Show me a pro game where Terran wins with 1 rax fe into 3 rax and I will show you three more of them losing. Sated believes it is "really easy" if you know it is coming. If you abandon your natural. Again, Taeja did lift his natural. Also, Gumiho vs MC. I can find a dozen more where codes S terrans lifted their natural and lost. The statement that "1 base terran is greater than 1 base Protoss is not correct. 1 gate fe isn't suppose to hold blink all in, blink all in is suppose to punish standard meta game play. It is "supposed" to? Why would a build be "standard" if it can be easily and reactively punished unless the alternatives put you behind in most cases?
First you say it can be easily held with marines and hellions and widow mines, then you say marauders in bunkers, now you say Terran is supposed to lose?
???
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On December 19 2012 01:43 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 01:05 Stunergy wrote:On December 19 2012 00:57 U_G_L_Y wrote:On December 18 2012 10:01 Sated wrote:On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers?
Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. It's actually really easy to deal with a Blink Stalker all-in if you scout it and respond properly. The reason it is so strong in WoL is because Terran players are so unwilling to waste MULEs on scans, and are so unwilling to abandon their natural expansion even though a 1 Base Terran > 1 Base Protoss... ... Same applies to this, although it is slightly harder to scout now that only one tech building is required to pull it off. Right, like when Taeja scouted Heros blink at dream hack, he held it with ease.... Show me a pro game where Terran wins with 1 rax fe into 3 rax and I will show you three more of them losing. Sated believes it is "really easy" if you know it is coming. If you abandon your natural. Again, Taeja did lift his natural. Also, Gumiho vs MC. I can find a dozen more where codes S terrans lifted their natural and lost. The statement that "1 base terran is greater than 1 base Protoss is not correct. 1 gate fe isn't suppose to hold blink all in, blink all in is suppose to punish standard meta game play. It is "supposed" to? Why would a build be "standard" if it can be easily and reactively punished unless the alternatives put you behind in most cases? First you say it can be easily held with marines and hellions and widow mines, then you say marauders in bunkers, now you say Terran is supposed to lose? ???
I think it is going to have to be accepted that 1 rax FE is super risky in HotS, which is not a problem in my book. Fast three hatch openings can be risky for zergs because of early widow mines. With the PvZ openings that rely on the MSC for defense, all of the zerg timings have been totally messed up, since FFE is not being used. I don't really feel safe going 1 gate FE in HotS against terran either, because I don't feel safe when working toward storm/colossi.
All those these openings became "standard" late in WoL and are the product of professional working out really sharp timings over thousands of games. Adding any new units into the game messes with these super efficent macro openings and they are no longer standard.
So don't open 1 rax FE any more and see how that works out for you. If it going to be months and month before we get a build that was that safe and efficent again.
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On December 18 2012 07:05 Bagi wrote: As a terran the detection just feels like too much. The MSC already grants extra dps, vision and the ability to recall back to base for a price cheaper than the observer. The detection however pretty much nullifies defensive widow mines, which makes all mech openers utter garbage against blink stalker openers.
Its gotten to a point where if I scout a toss taking 2 early gas, I blindly prepare for blink stalkers. Just ridiculous buffs to a strategy that was already very strong on maps like CK and antiga. Detection is too much? How else would mines be defended except by cannons? Without MSC detection toss would have to open robo vs T every single game, and that's no fun. Also, the dps is hardly that of a single marine so its a moot point. Recall is op but whatever im toss:D
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On December 19 2012 03:12 Ewok wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:05 Bagi wrote: As a terran the detection just feels like too much. The MSC already grants extra dps, vision and the ability to recall back to base for a price cheaper than the observer. The detection however pretty much nullifies defensive widow mines, which makes all mech openers utter garbage against blink stalker openers.
Its gotten to a point where if I scout a toss taking 2 early gas, I blindly prepare for blink stalkers. Just ridiculous buffs to a strategy that was already very strong on maps like CK and antiga. Detection is too much? How else would mines be defended except by cannons? Without MSC detection toss would have to open robo vs T every single game, and that's no fun. Also, the dps is hardly that of a single marine so its a moot point. Recall is op but whatever im toss:D
Mothership Core = Rocked by a single queen. Can the set if units you are currently controling almost kill a queen and shoot at the sky? If the answer is "YES", then they can kill a mothership core.
Its DPS is really unimpressive.
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On December 19 2012 03:12 Ewok wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 07:05 Bagi wrote: As a terran the detection just feels like too much. The MSC already grants extra dps, vision and the ability to recall back to base for a price cheaper than the observer. The detection however pretty much nullifies defensive widow mines, which makes all mech openers utter garbage against blink stalker openers.
Its gotten to a point where if I scout a toss taking 2 early gas, I blindly prepare for blink stalkers. Just ridiculous buffs to a strategy that was already very strong on maps like CK and antiga. Detection is too much? How else would mines be defended except by cannons? Without MSC detection toss would have to open robo vs T every single game, and that's no fun. Also, the dps is hardly that of a single marine so its a moot point. Recall is op but whatever im toss:D I'm fine with MSC providing defensive detection (against mines and cloak banshees for example), but the offensive detection means I can't rely on the one thing that is supposed to make mech builds safer in the early game. It pretty much kills mech openers.
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Why is everyone insisting that a 1 Rax FE should be able hold a Blink all-in? The Blink all-in is a build that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to counter 1 Rax FE, and pretty much falls flat on its face if the Terran is a little less greedy. It keeps Terrans honest. I can't tell you how many Terrans I play on the ladder now (high Diamond/low Masters) who DON'T SCOUT AT ALL TvP.
It's the same way that a 2 Rax build punishes a 1 gate expand. I used to die to 2 Raxes all the time... now when I see the early gas, I know pressure is coming and I anticipate. Terran has the ability to see ANYWHERE ON THE MAP they want without even having units there... why not use that amazing ability to... check for an expansion? Scan the main for tech?
TLDR I'm sorry that 1 Rax expand doesn't hold a build specifically designed to counter 1 Rax expand. Maybe you should be less greedy.
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Terrans have a God given right to go 1 rax cc and hold all-in rushes.Because they're terran. *rollseyes*
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Before I say anymore I'd like to preface my statements with: I HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED HOTS IN ITS CURRENT FORM.
Anyone complaining about the ease of use of recall... I have played HotS and I think that in general my micro is pretty good (I'm Rank 1 Diamond playing Masters on the ladder): In order to recall, you need to select the MsC, then click R, then click on a Nexus. This sounds simple but obviously you will not be fighting near a Nexus. So you need to double tap your Nexus hotkey (assuming you have one) to jump to your Nexus, and THEN hit your MsC hotkey, tap R, and click on the Nexus. This means that WHILE YOU ARE RECALLING, YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY SEE YOUR ARMY. So when you initiate the recall, you need to right click move all of your units to the MsC, and while you are recalling you need to hope that they're all within range. Now think of how fast Banelings and Stimmed bio balls kill things and you'll realize how small the margin for error is. If you whiff your MsC hotkey.. well, now you're staring at your Nexus while your army is on move command getting torn to shreds half way across the map... Additionally, if you group your Nexus hotkeys together, then you'll just be taken to a random Nexus and not the one you want. So guess what, in order to actually teleport where you want, you need to keep a different hotkey for each Nexus or cycle through them with the space bar like Zerg (or set up location hotkeys for each Nexus location... which even at Diamond level most people don't do). All these things add to the skill requirement and expose your units to danger while you're looking away.
Also people complaining about the MsC's DPS... are you kidding me? A single Queen or Stalker easily holds off a MsC. It takes like 5 shots to kill a Zergling, and 7 to kill workers. The weapon is barely enough to keep it from dying to 1-2 marines... chill folks.
As someone said before... the MsC allows Protoss just a little ability to roam the map in the early game without being too committal. This means that instead of turtling up to 3 bases and moving out with deathballs like in WoL (which everyone complained about) Protoss can now be active around the map like the other races. Why is this suddenly an issue?
Also, let me remind you of the high cost of activating the MsC's abilities. Recall costs 100. If you recall back to base to fight a ling counterattack or whatever, you don't necessarily have enough to cast Purify on your Nexus.
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Less greedy = open stim and concussive every game just in case of a blink stalker rush? I just want to play mech and explore new playstyles in the beta, yet I cannot because of the huge commitments I'm forced to make just in case the 1 base protoss went blink stalkers. Do note that there are other one-base pushes too, proxy immortals/VRs/colossi might be heading your way too.
Also please stop saying that we should scout with scans, there's a reason tech-revealing scans are called "lucky". Scanning the nat might be an option if the toss is really good at denying worker scouts, but rarely necessary.
FWIW I'm high masters playing GMs regularly.
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On December 19 2012 03:52 Bagi wrote: Less greedy = open stim and concussive every game just in case of a blink stalker rush? I just want to play mech and explore new playstyles in the beta, yet I cannot because of the huge commitments I'm forced to make just in case the 1 base protoss went blink stalkers. Do note that there are other one-base pushes too, proxy immortals/VRs/colossi might be heading your way too.
Also please stop saying that we should scout with scans, there's a reason tech-revealing scans are called "lucky". Scanning the nat might be an option if the toss is really good at denying worker scouts, but rarely necessary.
FWIW I'm high masters playing GMs regularly.
How unfortunate that you need to research stim and combat shields :/ They're such terrible abilities (rollseyes). You can't expect to just make the highest end units and skip out on bio completely... Hell, I want to make a fleet of Carriers and Tempests... it's unfair that I have to research Warpgate.... :/ See how that sounds?
Since you're Masters... imagine playing PvT without knowing if your Terran opponent even has a natural expansion. How LUDICROUS does that sound? Yet somehow you're trying to imply that it's okay for TvP. Terrans have the best 1 base play in the game. By far. It's not even close. Guess what.. when I play vs. Terran, and I don't see a natural expansion. What do I do? It could be anything. It could be a Thor rush, it could be mass Banshees + Vikings + a Raven, it could be Hellion drops, hell.. it could even be a Battlecruiser rush with full SCV pull... As a Protoss I'm forced to make a robo, make an obs, and go scout your base. Say you went Banshees off more than one port... well now I get to BEGIN making a Stargate... But I'm okay with these things. Yes... if you can't do anything else you should sacrifice a scan to check for an expansion. Just like I sometimes have to sac a Zealot to check for the Terran expansion when there's a bunker in the way. It's part of good scouting. Losing to proxy Immortals is silly. You should check the areas outside your base with a worker or something. 33% of my games are PvP.. I've learned to do it. It's not hard.
TLDR Terrans complaining about 1 basing anything = LOLOLOLOLOLOL okay.
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Maybe you should up scrap the condescending tone, you don't see me pointing out how you lack the mechanics to use a simple recall.
Terrans could go 1-1-1 and 1-base every game, but that would set the metagame back 2 years. If you open 1-1-1 as a terran you have to be aggressive, do we really need to kill terran macro builds just to keep blink stalkers alive? You go tell MVP how losing to 1base immortals is silly, he just did in Blizzard cup. Proxy or not.
Carriers and tempests are in no way comparable to mech, mech is designed to be a separate tech path starting from the early game, protoss fleet beacon air is a late game transition like BCs and ravens. Going 3 rax with all the necessary upgrades and then switching to mech will never be effective, you've spent too much and are always better off sticking with bio.
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On December 19 2012 04:10 Bagi wrote: Maybe you should up scrap the condescending tone, you don't see me pointing out how you lack the mechanics to use a simple recall.
Terrans could go 1-1-1 and 1-base every game, but that would set the metagame back 2 years. If you open 1-1-1 as a terran you have to be aggressive, do we really need to kill terran macro builds just to keep blink stalkers alive? You go tell MVP how losing to 1base immortals is silly, he just did in Blizzard cup. Proxy or not.
Carriers and tempests are in no way comparable to mech, mech is designed to be a separate tech path starting from the early game, protoss fleet beacon air is a late game transition like BCs and ravens. Going 3 rax with all the necessary upgrades and then switching to mech will never be effective, you've spent too much and are always better off sticking with bio.
Didn't mean to come off condescending. Sorry.
I do have the mechanics to execute a recall. Some people don't. I was only explaining that there IS a margin for error. It's not a simple "push 1 button and all your units are magically saved" thing - it takes some amount of skill to use effectively. Even pros slip up sometimes and mess up hotkeys.. (TaeJa accidentally lowers his depot vs. Life's 9 pool, etc..)
What makes the game interesting is that there are many different openers available to each race and that they all achieve something different. My point about the 1 Rax expand is that when a Terran does this, he's saying "I eventually want to win with a big army." Nerfing a Blink Stalker all-in simply because it derails that plan wouldn't add to the game.. it would only take away. Some builds force a reaction from the opponent. Like i was saying earlier, a 2 port build forces me to make Phoenix, which I really don't want to otherwise make versus Terran. So if a guy is Blink all-inning you, yeah I guess you have to scrap your plan to go Mech. At the pro level, seeing how fast someone can scout and react to a build is fun. It adds depth to the game. Nerfing every opening until Terrans can blindly go mech every game would be boring. Say you want to go Mech. Now I have to react to your Mech build. So I can't just go Zealot Templar, like I was planning to. But that's just part of the game.
TLDR build variety is what makes the game fun. Having a build that works against everything is boring. Sometimes your build forces a reaction, and sometimes you have to react to someone else's build. It's the same in every sport... if a football defense blitzes every down, then yeah, there will be some plays you can't execute. But there are others that punish that.
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New balance patch: Blink takes 170 (up from 140) to research. Personally, I don't think this will make a HUGE amount of difference but will help a bit.
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That will be huge. It is the difference between 1 marauder and 4 for the first blink in (using my build, anyway)
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On December 19 2012 03:32 DinoMight wrote: Why is everyone insisting that a 1 Rax FE should be able hold a Blink all-in? The Blink all-in is a build that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to counter 1 Rax FE, and pretty much falls flat on its face if the Terran is a little less greedy. It keeps Terrans honest. I can't tell you how many Terrans I play on the ladder now (high Diamond/low Masters) who DON'T SCOUT AT ALL TvP.
It's the same way that a 2 Rax build punishes a 1 gate expand. I used to die to 2 Raxes all the time... now when I see the early gas, I know pressure is coming and I anticipate. Terran has the ability to see ANYWHERE ON THE MAP they want without even having units there... why not use that amazing ability to... check for an expansion? Scan the main for tech?
TLDR I'm sorry that 1 Rax expand doesn't hold a build specifically designed to counter 1 Rax expand. Maybe you should be less greedy.
2 rax has to be done blindly. Blink doesn't. Blink can beat many 1 base builds straight up and should remain even with all others. If you spend a scan, everything in your build is late, which means if Protoss was just chronboosting probes, you have a mighty big hole to dig out of. You don't have enough units to delay Protoss third base. Guess who wins 3 base vs 3 base most of the time?
I don't think you appreciate just how expensive scans are or how far they put you behind. You lose the "midgame advantage" that Terran has.
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On December 19 2012 08:19 madals wrote: New balance patch: Blink takes 170 (up from 140) to research. Personally, I don't think this will make a HUGE amount of difference but will help a bit.
Are you kidding? People went apeshit when Protoss upgrades were cheapened by 25/25 on level 3. But 30 seconds later Blink won't make a huge difference.
That is almost a Bunker, that is a full production cycle. That will be the end of Blink all ins against good players -.-
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On December 19 2012 18:51 rEalGuapo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:19 madals wrote: New balance patch: Blink takes 170 (up from 140) to research. Personally, I don't think this will make a HUGE amount of difference but will help a bit. Are you kidding? People went apeshit when Protoss upgrades were cheapened by 25/25 on level 3. But 30 seconds later Blink won't make a huge difference. That is almost a Bunker, that is a full production cycle. That will be the end of Blink all ins against good players -.-
And that is good fucking thing.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:49 DinoMight wrote: Before I say anymore I'd like to preface my statements with: I HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED HOTS IN ITS CURRENT FORM.
Anyone complaining about the ease of use of recall... I have played HotS and I think that in general my micro is pretty good (I'm Rank 1 Diamond playing Masters on the ladder): In order to recall, you need to select the MsC, then click R, then click on a Nexus. This sounds simple but obviously you will not be fighting near a Nexus. So you need to double tap your Nexus hotkey (assuming you have one) to jump to your Nexus, and THEN hit your MsC hotkey, tap R, and click on the Nexus. This means that WHILE YOU ARE RECALLING, YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY SEE YOUR ARMY. So when you initiate the recall, you need to right click move all of your units to the MsC, and while you are recalling you need to hope that they're all within range. Now think of how fast Banelings and Stimmed bio balls kill things and you'll realize how small the margin for error is. If you whiff your MsC hotkey.. well, now you're staring at your Nexus while your army is on move command getting torn to shreds half way across the map... Additionally, if you group your Nexus hotkeys together, then you'll just be taken to a random Nexus and not the one you want. So guess what, in order to actually teleport where you want, you need to keep a different hotkey for each Nexus or cycle through them with the space bar like Zerg (or set up location hotkeys for each Nexus location... which even at Diamond level most people don't do). All these things add to the skill requirement and expose your units to danger while you're looking away.
Also people complaining about the MsC's DPS... are you kidding me? A single Queen or Stalker easily holds off a MsC. It takes like 5 shots to kill a Zergling, and 7 to kill workers. The weapon is barely enough to keep it from dying to 1-2 marines... chill folks.
As someone said before... the MsC allows Protoss just a little ability to roam the map in the early game without being too committal. This means that instead of turtling up to 3 bases and moving out with deathballs like in WoL (which everyone complained about) Protoss can now be active around the map like the other races. Why is this suddenly an issue?
Also, let me remind you of the high cost of activating the MsC's abilities. Recall costs 100. If you recall back to base to fight a ling counterattack or whatever, you don't necessarily have enough to cast Purify on your Nexus.
As I've been playing, I feel like there isn't a reason for MsC to have an attack? Just because it has an attack, it is necessary to make 5+ marines after a standard 1rax expand (2 to cover your mineral line, 3+ to guard the front), which necessarily slows down a lot of plays like thor rushes or reactor hellions, effectively shutting down mech. By the time you can get the tech you want (i.e. hellion/banshee to keep opponent pinned back or 1-2 thors), you are in danger of a plethora of all-in's, including blink, 6-gate, robo, and void ray all-in's. I'm not saying it's impossible to deal with, but it certainly makes things a lot harder for terran players and shuts down a lot of options after 1rax expand.
On a totally unrelated note, easiest way I've found to recall is:
1) select army, right-click on MsC 2) hold position 3) base camera (or screen save) 4) r + click
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On December 19 2012 19:09 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 18:51 rEalGuapo wrote:On December 19 2012 08:19 madals wrote: New balance patch: Blink takes 170 (up from 140) to research. Personally, I don't think this will make a HUGE amount of difference but will help a bit. Are you kidding? People went apeshit when Protoss upgrades were cheapened by 25/25 on level 3. But 30 seconds later Blink won't make a huge difference. That is almost a Bunker, that is a full production cycle. That will be the end of Blink all ins against good players -.- And that is good fucking thing.
If this were WoL, I would say that everyone needs a few all-ins. But protoss received some good defensive options that don't cut into our builds greatly, so I think terran can get a few breaks and not have to deal with such a sharp opening.
On a side note, getting blink quickly in any standard game will require SO much chrono.
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On December 19 2012 03:49 DinoMight wrote: Before I say anymore I'd like to preface my statements with: I HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED HOTS IN ITS CURRENT FORM.
Anyone complaining about the ease of use of recall... I have played HotS and I think that in general my micro is pretty good (I'm Rank 1 Diamond playing Masters on the ladder): In order to recall, you need to select the MsC, then click R, then click on a Nexus. This sounds simple but obviously you will not be fighting near a Nexus.
why not just use your camera save hotkey to go to you nexus so it would be selec msc press r, press F2(or whatever hotkey you put it on) click the nexus done this is not hard at all ans really fast
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On December 20 2012 03:09 Khalleb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:49 DinoMight wrote: Before I say anymore I'd like to preface my statements with: I HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED HOTS IN ITS CURRENT FORM.
Anyone complaining about the ease of use of recall... I have played HotS and I think that in general my micro is pretty good (I'm Rank 1 Diamond playing Masters on the ladder): In order to recall, you need to select the MsC, then click R, then click on a Nexus. This sounds simple but obviously you will not be fighting near a Nexus.
why not just use your camera save hotkey to go to you nexus so it would be selec msc press r, press F2(or whatever hotkey you put it on) click the nexus done this is not hard at all ans really fast
I have done that and it works as expected. I have had some dumb moments when the units I was trying to save wandered slightly out of the Baby-Core recall radius, but all and all, it works well. The ability is not "instant" protoss will still lose some units if they do it during a fight.
Also, people using it to defend a nexus will be very bummed out. The units recall around the nexus, in a totally random fashion and are stunned. There is more than enough time for any player to do some damage to the stunned units and then get out of there(if its a drop).
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United States4883 Posts
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Just curios, but I played a lot of HotS over a month ago and Blink+MSCore was pretty standard in PvP back then.
Why did people recently start complaining? In PvT almost nothing changed. In PvP it means that Phoenix are able to kill the unit used to get high ground vision.
What seemed to be the problem officer?
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Im so happy people have been trying to implement this build w msc. Ive been trying to do this but not sure how to implement thr msc with out delaying blink
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Im so happy people have been trying to implement this build w msc. Ive been trying to do this but not sure how to implement thr msc with out delaying blink
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On December 19 2012 03:32 DinoMight wrote: Why is everyone insisting that a 1 Rax FE should be able hold a Blink all-in? The Blink all-in is a build that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to counter 1 Rax FE, and pretty much falls flat on its face if the Terran is a little less greedy. It keeps Terrans honest. I can't tell you how many Terrans I play on the ladder now (high Diamond/low Masters) who DON'T SCOUT AT ALL TvP.
It's the same way that a 2 Rax build punishes a 1 gate expand. I used to die to 2 Raxes all the time... now when I see the early gas, I know pressure is coming and I anticipate. Terran has the ability to see ANYWHERE ON THE MAP they want without even having units there... why not use that amazing ability to... check for an expansion? Scan the main for tech?
TLDR I'm sorry that 1 Rax expand doesn't hold a build specifically designed to counter 1 Rax expand. Maybe you should be less greedy.
When do you cut probes, drop a forge at 13, and start massing cannons as well as producing stalkers when you can't find the Terran's rax?
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As protoss, id go msc first against zerg but terrian would be better to get the stalker first. Then continue with the build
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so how are the blink timings working post patch?
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Probably the most fun I've had with mother ship core occurs in the very early game. Where normally I would be poking with my Stalker/Zealot to see if they expanded to the natural, I now sneak the mothership core to their mineral line. At this point they have a few marines out, but they have to choose - either go defend their workers OR get their natural shut down. Usually it just ends up with me poking the front, then moving the core in... then when they turn around to defend from the core I run it out of the base and poke the front some more. Either way it effectively gets worker kills/delays the natural. Some games if you have done enough damage you can just 4 gate and win, but most times it just ends up delaying them while your're expanding. Lots of fun and a cool way to add some early game pressure to terran that we normally didn't have before.
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On December 19 2012 13:13 U_G_L_Y wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 03:32 DinoMight wrote: Why is everyone insisting that a 1 Rax FE should be able hold a Blink all-in? The Blink all-in is a build that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to counter 1 Rax FE, and pretty much falls flat on its face if the Terran is a little less greedy. It keeps Terrans honest. I can't tell you how many Terrans I play on the ladder now (high Diamond/low Masters) who DON'T SCOUT AT ALL TvP.
It's the same way that a 2 Rax build punishes a 1 gate expand. I used to die to 2 Raxes all the time... now when I see the early gas, I know pressure is coming and I anticipate. Terran has the ability to see ANYWHERE ON THE MAP they want without even having units there... why not use that amazing ability to... check for an expansion? Scan the main for tech?
TLDR I'm sorry that 1 Rax expand doesn't hold a build specifically designed to counter 1 Rax expand. Maybe you should be less greedy.
2 rax has to be done blindly. Blink doesn't. Blink can beat many 1 base builds straight up and should remain even with all others. If you spend a scan, everything in your build is late, which means if Protoss was just chronboosting probes, you have a mighty big hole to dig out of. You don't have enough units to delay Protoss third base. Guess who wins 3 base vs 3 base most of the time? I don't think you appreciate just how expensive scans are or how far they put you behind. You lose the "midgame advantage" that Terran has.
You can still scout though. You act like you can't just send a second SCV out at like 3:30 and scout for an expansion or even sack it so you can see what units he has. If you see an expansion or if you see a sentry then you know you aren't facing any pressure, if you don't see an expansion or you see 2-3 stalkers already then you will know that he's going for some sort of pressure and likely blink stalkers. I just don't get why so many Terrans find this to be a problem. So because you can't play completely greedy then blink openings are OP? That's like me or any other Protoss player complaining about 2 rax because we can't be greedy and go Nexus first every game.
You are more than capable of scouting and getting enough information to know that this could be coming and you can do this early enough to have around 3 minutes to prepare for it (blink builds hit around 7-7:30). I can't tell you how many times I've played Terrans who will send a second or even third SCV at times to scout what I'm doing or just to see my unit composition within the first 4-5 minutes of the game and they still were able to get their tech up at a good timing. So scout more or maybe you should open with gas more often and get a tech lab faster or do some sort of 2 rax expand. Just because you can't always be greedy doesn't mean something is imbalanced.
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