On December 18 2012 04:01 BeyondCtrL wrote:
Recall would have to be removed or redesigned in that case.
Recall would have to be removed or redesigned in that case.
Global cast range, teleports units in the radius to the mothership core?
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nomyx
United States2205 Posts
On December 18 2012 04:01 BeyondCtrL wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2012 03:34 Steglich wrote: On December 18 2012 03:13 Dvriel wrote: MScore should only move into the Ps base and not used as attacking unit I agree. the MS core should be entirely a defensive unit. Recall would have to be removed or redesigned in that case. Global cast range, teleports units in the radius to the mothership core? | ||
Stunergy
United States41 Posts
On December 18 2012 09:50 nomyx wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2012 04:01 BeyondCtrL wrote: On December 18 2012 03:34 Steglich wrote: On December 18 2012 03:13 Dvriel wrote: MScore should only move into the Ps base and not used as attacking unit I agree. the MS core should be entirely a defensive unit. Recall would have to be removed or redesigned in that case. Global cast range, teleports units in the radius to the mothership core? Why not make recall like a nydus network, The mothership core transforms into a "teleporter" , the units have to run through the teleporter, after the selected units go through the mothership core, it gets destroyed. So it cost the mothership core to use, and if you snipe the core before all the units are through, you lose your units. And no matter what protoss loses mothership core, and the units have to be micro'd into the ms core. Takes more skill than hitting a recall key and a nexus. You have to do that now, and have all your units make it to the core. For envision, make the mother ship core plant into the ground as a detection tower, after the detection runs out either have the mothership auto explode or just resume to normal, and for the nexus cannon, make it get implanted on the nexus like it was before. Their for abilities cant be stacked, and you have to make wiser decisions when to use your spells. This would fix everyones problem with blink stalker all ins, if you force an envision, he loses high ground vision, and a mobile dectector, If you force a recall, he loses mothership and will lose more units trying to get them to the teleporter. | ||
Sated
England4983 Posts
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Belisarius
Australia6178 Posts
Recall would need to go back to the old-school method, but I'd kind of like that anyway. | ||
Arco
United States2090 Posts
On December 18 2012 04:43 -MoOsE- wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2012 04:21 Hider wrote: According to Dustin Browder they are lookng at blink allins, so expect them to get nerfed. I honestly wouldn't use this build as protoss if you want to get better. Well in pvp you don't really have a choice You can actually defend the PvP version quite fine, but Terran doesn't have a Mothership Core of their own... | ||
Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 18 2012 10:01 Sated wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers? Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. It's actually really easy to deal with a Blink Stalker all-in if you scout it and respond properly. The reason it is so strong in WoL is because Terran players are so unwilling to waste MULEs on scans, and are so unwilling to abandon their natural expansion even though a 1 Base Terran > 1 Base Protoss... ... Same applies to this, although it is slightly harder to scout now that only one tech building is required to pull it off. Are you seriously implying that scans are a reliable way to scout your opponents tech? In WoL it largely boils down to control and the map. If you open 1rax FE, you can't just float back to your main and assume you are ahead, your opener already puts you in a bad spot to defend the all-in. Stuff like observer snipes can be crucial in successfully defending. If you think its just a matter of floating your natural back to your base in HOTS too, you are completely ignoring how the strat got buffed in pretty much every aspect, not just the scouting. | ||
weikor
Austria580 Posts
This also works well with the concept of the MSC beeing a defensive unit mostly, becaue your buildings give you vision anyway, | ||
madals
United Kingdom624 Posts
Should the terran be able to hold though, the protoss player will obviously be in a very strong position due to the advantage economically. | ||
Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On December 18 2012 04:06 Markwerf wrote: Removing detection might fix PvP a little too since blink stalker opening would at least be countered by DT again That's a point of detail, but sorry, DTs does not counter blink. All the blink player has to do is to ruin your economy while dropping a proxy robo somewhere he has a pylon, make an obs, and base trade. He can easily win. | ||
U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On December 18 2012 10:01 Sated wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers? Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. It's actually really easy to deal with a Blink Stalker all-in if you scout it and respond properly. The reason it is so strong in WoL is because Terran players are so unwilling to waste MULEs on scans, and are so unwilling to abandon their natural expansion even though a 1 Base Terran > 1 Base Protoss... ... Same applies to this, although it is slightly harder to scout now that only one tech building is required to pull it off. Right, like when Taeja scouted Heros blink at dream hack, he held it with ease.... Show me a pro game where Terran wins with 1 rax fe into 3 rax and I will show you three more of them losing. Sated believes it is "really easy" if you know it is coming. If you abandon your natural. Again, Taeja did lift his natural. Also, Gumiho vs MC. I can find a dozen more where codes S terrans lifted their natural and lost. The statement that "1 base terran is greater than 1 base Protoss is not correct. | ||
Stunergy
United States41 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:57 U_G_L_Y wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2012 10:01 Sated wrote: On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers? Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. It's actually really easy to deal with a Blink Stalker all-in if you scout it and respond properly. The reason it is so strong in WoL is because Terran players are so unwilling to waste MULEs on scans, and are so unwilling to abandon their natural expansion even though a 1 Base Terran > 1 Base Protoss... ... Same applies to this, although it is slightly harder to scout now that only one tech building is required to pull it off. Right, like when Taeja scouted Heros blink at dream hack, he held it with ease.... Show me a pro game where Terran wins with 1 rax fe into 3 rax and I will show you three more of them losing. Sated believes it is "really easy" if you know it is coming. If you abandon your natural. Again, Taeja did lift his natural. Also, Gumiho vs MC. I can find a dozen more where codes S terrans lifted their natural and lost. The statement that "1 base terran is greater than 1 base Protoss is not correct. 1 gate fe isn't suppose to hold blink all in, blink all in is suppose to punish standard meta game play. | ||
awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:05 Stunergy wrote: Show nested quote + On December 19 2012 00:57 U_G_L_Y wrote: On December 18 2012 10:01 Sated wrote: On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers? Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. It's actually really easy to deal with a Blink Stalker all-in if you scout it and respond properly. The reason it is so strong in WoL is because Terran players are so unwilling to waste MULEs on scans, and are so unwilling to abandon their natural expansion even though a 1 Base Terran > 1 Base Protoss... ... Same applies to this, although it is slightly harder to scout now that only one tech building is required to pull it off. Right, like when Taeja scouted Heros blink at dream hack, he held it with ease.... Show me a pro game where Terran wins with 1 rax fe into 3 rax and I will show you three more of them losing. Sated believes it is "really easy" if you know it is coming. If you abandon your natural. Again, Taeja did lift his natural. Also, Gumiho vs MC. I can find a dozen more where codes S terrans lifted their natural and lost. The statement that "1 base terran is greater than 1 base Protoss is not correct. 1 gate fe isn't suppose to hold blink all in, blink all in is suppose to punish standard meta game play. It is "supposed" to? Why would a build be "standard" if it can be easily and reactively punished unless the alternatives put you behind in most cases? First you say it can be easily held with marines and hellions and widow mines, then you say marauders in bunkers, now you say Terran is supposed to lose? ??? | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:43 U_G_L_Y wrote: Show nested quote + On December 19 2012 01:05 Stunergy wrote: On December 19 2012 00:57 U_G_L_Y wrote: On December 18 2012 10:01 Sated wrote: On December 18 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: In what league does pure unupgraded marine handle blink stalkers? Its actually very easy to see that the strategy is problematic, all you have to look at how it performs in WoL and what HoTS has brought to the table for both sides. For protoss the buffs are obvious, for terrans the only possible new counter that early in the game is widow mines, and the MSC directly counters them. Doesn't take a genius to see something is off. It's actually really easy to deal with a Blink Stalker all-in if you scout it and respond properly. The reason it is so strong in WoL is because Terran players are so unwilling to waste MULEs on scans, and are so unwilling to abandon their natural expansion even though a 1 Base Terran > 1 Base Protoss... ... Same applies to this, although it is slightly harder to scout now that only one tech building is required to pull it off. Right, like when Taeja scouted Heros blink at dream hack, he held it with ease.... Show me a pro game where Terran wins with 1 rax fe into 3 rax and I will show you three more of them losing. Sated believes it is "really easy" if you know it is coming. If you abandon your natural. Again, Taeja did lift his natural. Also, Gumiho vs MC. I can find a dozen more where codes S terrans lifted their natural and lost. The statement that "1 base terran is greater than 1 base Protoss is not correct. 1 gate fe isn't suppose to hold blink all in, blink all in is suppose to punish standard meta game play. It is "supposed" to? Why would a build be "standard" if it can be easily and reactively punished unless the alternatives put you behind in most cases? First you say it can be easily held with marines and hellions and widow mines, then you say marauders in bunkers, now you say Terran is supposed to lose? ??? I think it is going to have to be accepted that 1 rax FE is super risky in HotS, which is not a problem in my book. Fast three hatch openings can be risky for zergs because of early widow mines. With the PvZ openings that rely on the MSC for defense, all of the zerg timings have been totally messed up, since FFE is not being used. I don't really feel safe going 1 gate FE in HotS against terran either, because I don't feel safe when working toward storm/colossi. All those these openings became "standard" late in WoL and are the product of professional working out really sharp timings over thousands of games. Adding any new units into the game messes with these super efficent macro openings and they are no longer standard. So don't open 1 rax FE any more and see how that works out for you. If it going to be months and month before we get a build that was that safe and efficent again. | ||
Ewok
United States26 Posts
On December 18 2012 07:05 Bagi wrote: As a terran the detection just feels like too much. The MSC already grants extra dps, vision and the ability to recall back to base for a price cheaper than the observer. The detection however pretty much nullifies defensive widow mines, which makes all mech openers utter garbage against blink stalker openers. Its gotten to a point where if I scout a toss taking 2 early gas, I blindly prepare for blink stalkers. Just ridiculous buffs to a strategy that was already very strong on maps like CK and antiga. Detection is too much? How else would mines be defended except by cannons? Without MSC detection toss would have to open robo vs T every single game, and that's no fun. Also, the dps is hardly that of a single marine so its a moot point. Recall is op but whatever im toss:D | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:12 Ewok wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2012 07:05 Bagi wrote: As a terran the detection just feels like too much. The MSC already grants extra dps, vision and the ability to recall back to base for a price cheaper than the observer. The detection however pretty much nullifies defensive widow mines, which makes all mech openers utter garbage against blink stalker openers. Its gotten to a point where if I scout a toss taking 2 early gas, I blindly prepare for blink stalkers. Just ridiculous buffs to a strategy that was already very strong on maps like CK and antiga. Detection is too much? How else would mines be defended except by cannons? Without MSC detection toss would have to open robo vs T every single game, and that's no fun. Also, the dps is hardly that of a single marine so its a moot point. Recall is op but whatever im toss:D Mothership Core = Rocked by a single queen. Can the set if units you are currently controling almost kill a queen and shoot at the sky? If the answer is "YES", then they can kill a mothership core. Its DPS is really unimpressive. | ||
Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:12 Ewok wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2012 07:05 Bagi wrote: As a terran the detection just feels like too much. The MSC already grants extra dps, vision and the ability to recall back to base for a price cheaper than the observer. The detection however pretty much nullifies defensive widow mines, which makes all mech openers utter garbage against blink stalker openers. Its gotten to a point where if I scout a toss taking 2 early gas, I blindly prepare for blink stalkers. Just ridiculous buffs to a strategy that was already very strong on maps like CK and antiga. Detection is too much? How else would mines be defended except by cannons? Without MSC detection toss would have to open robo vs T every single game, and that's no fun. Also, the dps is hardly that of a single marine so its a moot point. Recall is op but whatever im toss:D I'm fine with MSC providing defensive detection (against mines and cloak banshees for example), but the offensive detection means I can't rely on the one thing that is supposed to make mech builds safer in the early game. It pretty much kills mech openers. | ||
DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
It's the same way that a 2 Rax build punishes a 1 gate expand. I used to die to 2 Raxes all the time... now when I see the early gas, I know pressure is coming and I anticipate. Terran has the ability to see ANYWHERE ON THE MAP they want without even having units there... why not use that amazing ability to... check for an expansion? Scan the main for tech? TLDR I'm sorry that 1 Rax expand doesn't hold a build specifically designed to counter 1 Rax expand. Maybe you should be less greedy. | ||
Phoenix2003
126 Posts
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