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On December 22 2012 03:14 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly. Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2.
I assume you didn't read the OP, or the first sentence of my second paragraph, because what I typed is literally a restatement and then a rebuttle+reasoning. Feel free to quote something to prove otherwise.
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On December 22 2012 03:14 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly. Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2.
Well he is top 100 GM and in the Complexity Academy, so I am going to assume is his kinda good as SC2 and knows what he is talking about. Much like the Zerg QQ of early SC2, I think some people are annoyed with the Terran QQ of 2012.
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On December 22 2012 03:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:14 Hider wrote:On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly. Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2. Well he is top 100 GM and in the Complexity Academy, so I am going to assume is his kinda good as SC2 and knows what he is talking about. Much like the Zerg QQ of early SC2, I think some people are annoyed with the Terran QQ of 2012.
Thread is not about me, don't let kyo try to derail it. Thread is about widow mine efficiency, especially post-patch 10 where it has gotten progressively worse in TvP.
+ Show Spoiler +I may start posting anonymously on TL with analysis threads/feedback for beta, because everytime i do there are some idiots that like to derail the thread with their own 12 yr old high school girl hate bullshit.
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On December 22 2012 03:22 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:21 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 03:14 Hider wrote:On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly. Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2. Well he is top 100 GM and in the Complexity Academy, so I am going to assume is his kinda good as SC2 and knows what he is talking about. Much like the Zerg QQ of early SC2, I think some people are annoyed with the Terran QQ of 2012. Thread is not about me, don't let kyo try to derail it. Thread is about widow mine efficiency.
To which I replied I disagree(about mines), and many others pro players do as well. Every time I've played you in HotS you've never once utilized widow mines correctly as other players such as Morrow have. In fact, I still have not seen another play Mech as well as he has and that was nearly a month ago :/
So the point I'm making here is: If you actually know how to use the unit correctly, and at the right timings it's incredibly good.
I do suggest, similarly, that mines shouldn't have a supply cost. Honestly, I think they should just use BW mines... @_@
Edit: I think you're missing my point. I only called you out specifically because.. again... the information you bring to the community is incredibly skewed. Essentially, your argument is valid, but not sound. @_@ + Show Spoiler +http://www.iep.utm.edu/val-snd/ here is some simple logical reasoning you can reference if you'd like to understand the above
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On December 22 2012 03:14 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 02:56 Big J wrote: Stopped reading after avilo - "mines that cost supply cannot be balanced to be good" - wrote that they were getting reasonable in the lategame. Everything I believed in is in shambles... Time to rethink my life. Well, the last drilling claw upgrade that was added started to allow them to pay themselves off slightly more often. It's still debatable if they're good lategame haha. But you know of course, anytime Terran gets anything that's looking to be remotely viable lategame it's AXED immediately, we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we? At least not on fair terms, they have to work for it through 10 range fungals. The mine itself still has the same design flaw that it's had since the beginning of the beta - it's supply inefficient, and easy to handle by high calibre players. It can either be really strong vs noobs, or extremely weak vs pros. As the game gets more figured out, a 2 supply mine is going to end up sucking, and Terran gets none the better for it in the expansion. But yeh, i said when they first started the beta that it was ridiculous to have a mine be any supply cost, it should have been live tested at 0 supply, and 2 supply, with other changes. It never was for some reason, which i mostly think is because they refused to have something so similar to the brood war spider mine, a tried and tested unit for over 12 years. We all know this isn't brood war, and nor should it be. But come on. You have to be a fool to not live test a 0 supply version of the mine that adds depth to SC2. -_-
The spider mine was on a really crappy unit and in the game from the get-go. If you wanted mines, you had to go for vultures, which weren't all that useful (in later stages of the game) after putting down mines - at least compared to something like a hellion. I think 0 supply units have been proven to be very problematic in WoL by the IT. And that is still limited to 8/infestor. Imagine any ~200/200 stalematesituation and then tell me that the ability to add mines (if built straight by the factory) wouldn't be extremly problematic. And if not built from the factory, which unit to put it on? It would have to be a kind of crappy unit, to balance out the mine-ability - something that isn't in the game currently, as any unit is being designed to work without mines.
Also, the current rocket-launcher design makes any form of 0supply completly impossible
Also, from someone who I see telling opponents to "get out" if he reaches mass Air armies on his stream, I don't really accept comments like "we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we". The transition into mass hightier T might be questionable in WoL. But it's being adressed with Raven, Upgrade, Thor changes.
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I was originally very excited about the widow mine. Now, however, I'm of the opinion that it needs to be a mine laying caster and that it should have a synergy with the siege tank.
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On December 22 2012 03:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:14 avilo wrote:On December 22 2012 02:56 Big J wrote: Stopped reading after avilo - "mines that cost supply cannot be balanced to be good" - wrote that they were getting reasonable in the lategame. Everything I believed in is in shambles... Time to rethink my life. Well, the last drilling claw upgrade that was added started to allow them to pay themselves off slightly more often. It's still debatable if they're good lategame haha. But you know of course, anytime Terran gets anything that's looking to be remotely viable lategame it's AXED immediately, we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we? At least not on fair terms, they have to work for it through 10 range fungals. The mine itself still has the same design flaw that it's had since the beginning of the beta - it's supply inefficient, and easy to handle by high calibre players. It can either be really strong vs noobs, or extremely weak vs pros. As the game gets more figured out, a 2 supply mine is going to end up sucking, and Terran gets none the better for it in the expansion. But yeh, i said when they first started the beta that it was ridiculous to have a mine be any supply cost, it should have been live tested at 0 supply, and 2 supply, with other changes. It never was for some reason, which i mostly think is because they refused to have something so similar to the brood war spider mine, a tried and tested unit for over 12 years. We all know this isn't brood war, and nor should it be. But come on. You have to be a fool to not live test a 0 supply version of the mine that adds depth to SC2. -_- The spider mine was on a really crappy unit and in the game from the get-go. If you wanted mines, you had to go for vultures, which weren't all that useful (in later stages of the game) after putting down mines - at least compared to something like a hellion. I think 0 supply units have been proven to be very problematic in WoL by the IT. And that is still limited to 8/infestor. Imagine any ~200/200 stalematesituation and then tell me that the ability to add mines (if built straight by the factory) wouldn't be extremly problematic. And if not built from the factory, which unit to put it on? It would have to be a kind of crappy unit, to balance out the mine-ability - something that isn't in the game currently, as any unit is being designed to work without mines. Also, the current rocket-launcher design makes any form of 0supply completly impossible Also, from someone who I see telling opponents to "get out" if he reaches mass Air armies on his stream, I don't really accept comments like "we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we". The transition into mass hightier T might be questionable in WoL. But it's being adressed with Raven, Upgrade, Thor changes.
I don't really want to join in this argument your having about the Mine--but the Vulture did not ever stop being useful throughout the entire game no matter how long. The only thing they did bad at was killing buildings, the rest of the time they were amazing.
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On December 22 2012 02:18 Insoleet wrote:Good news, Dustin Browder read this topic. He like the 'mammoth tank" idea. Let's see how it goes.
Oh come on. The man is clearly trolling those people who think he's a dumb C&C developer.
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On December 22 2012 03:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:30 Big J wrote:On December 22 2012 03:14 avilo wrote:On December 22 2012 02:56 Big J wrote: Stopped reading after avilo - "mines that cost supply cannot be balanced to be good" - wrote that they were getting reasonable in the lategame. Everything I believed in is in shambles... Time to rethink my life. Well, the last drilling claw upgrade that was added started to allow them to pay themselves off slightly more often. It's still debatable if they're good lategame haha. But you know of course, anytime Terran gets anything that's looking to be remotely viable lategame it's AXED immediately, we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we? At least not on fair terms, they have to work for it through 10 range fungals. The mine itself still has the same design flaw that it's had since the beginning of the beta - it's supply inefficient, and easy to handle by high calibre players. It can either be really strong vs noobs, or extremely weak vs pros. As the game gets more figured out, a 2 supply mine is going to end up sucking, and Terran gets none the better for it in the expansion. But yeh, i said when they first started the beta that it was ridiculous to have a mine be any supply cost, it should have been live tested at 0 supply, and 2 supply, with other changes. It never was for some reason, which i mostly think is because they refused to have something so similar to the brood war spider mine, a tried and tested unit for over 12 years. We all know this isn't brood war, and nor should it be. But come on. You have to be a fool to not live test a 0 supply version of the mine that adds depth to SC2. -_- The spider mine was on a really crappy unit and in the game from the get-go. If you wanted mines, you had to go for vultures, which weren't all that useful (in later stages of the game) after putting down mines - at least compared to something like a hellion. I think 0 supply units have been proven to be very problematic in WoL by the IT. And that is still limited to 8/infestor. Imagine any ~200/200 stalematesituation and then tell me that the ability to add mines (if built straight by the factory) wouldn't be extremly problematic. And if not built from the factory, which unit to put it on? It would have to be a kind of crappy unit, to balance out the mine-ability - something that isn't in the game currently, as any unit is being designed to work without mines. Also, the current rocket-launcher design makes any form of 0supply completly impossible Also, from someone who I see telling opponents to "get out" if he reaches mass Air armies on his stream, I don't really accept comments like "we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we". The transition into mass hightier T might be questionable in WoL. But it's being adressed with Raven, Upgrade, Thor changes. I don't really want to join in this argument your having about the Mine--but the Vulture did not ever stop being useful throughout the entire game no matter how long. The only thing they did bad at was killing buildings, the rest of the time they were amazing.
I'm not a BW specialist, but from what I have seen, they were mostly used to put down mines and then sacrifice them trying to take out as many workers as you could. But might be wrong. Still don't see a unit on which to put a mine.
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On December 22 2012 03:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:14 avilo wrote:On December 22 2012 02:56 Big J wrote: Stopped reading after avilo - "mines that cost supply cannot be balanced to be good" - wrote that they were getting reasonable in the lategame. Everything I believed in is in shambles... Time to rethink my life. Well, the last drilling claw upgrade that was added started to allow them to pay themselves off slightly more often. It's still debatable if they're good lategame haha. But you know of course, anytime Terran gets anything that's looking to be remotely viable lategame it's AXED immediately, we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we? At least not on fair terms, they have to work for it through 10 range fungals. The mine itself still has the same design flaw that it's had since the beginning of the beta - it's supply inefficient, and easy to handle by high calibre players. It can either be really strong vs noobs, or extremely weak vs pros. As the game gets more figured out, a 2 supply mine is going to end up sucking, and Terran gets none the better for it in the expansion. But yeh, i said when they first started the beta that it was ridiculous to have a mine be any supply cost, it should have been live tested at 0 supply, and 2 supply, with other changes. It never was for some reason, which i mostly think is because they refused to have something so similar to the brood war spider mine, a tried and tested unit for over 12 years. We all know this isn't brood war, and nor should it be. But come on. You have to be a fool to not live test a 0 supply version of the mine that adds depth to SC2. -_- The spider mine was on a really crappy unit and in the game from the get-go. If you wanted mines, you had to go for vultures, which weren't all that useful (in later stages of the game) after putting down mines - at least compared to something like a hellion. I think 0 supply units have been proven to be very problematic in WoL by the IT. And that is still limited to 8/infestor. Imagine any ~200/200 stalematesituation and then tell me that the ability to add mines (if built straight by the factory) wouldn't be extremly problematic. And if not built from the factory, which unit to put it on? It would have to be a kind of crappy unit, to balance out the mine-ability - something that isn't in the game currently, as any unit is being designed to work without mines. Also, the current rocket-launcher design makes any form of 0supply completly impossible Also, from someone who I see telling opponents to "get out" if he reaches mass Air armies on his stream, I don't really accept comments like "we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we". The transition into mass hightier T might be questionable in WoL. But it's being adressed with Raven, Upgrade, Thor changes.
I agree that all zero supply units cause problems in the game. The infested terran has been nothing but trouble since people started using them and adding any other zero supply units would only open up more balance nightmares. Even a mine, which is single use, would still be a problem. Even if the unit costs no supply, it has to be put down by some thing else, which causes that unit to have to be balanced around the zero supply mine.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 22 2012 03:28 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:22 avilo wrote:On December 22 2012 03:21 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 03:14 Hider wrote:On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly. Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2. Well he is top 100 GM and in the Complexity Academy, so I am going to assume is his kinda good as SC2 and knows what he is talking about. Much like the Zerg QQ of early SC2, I think some people are annoyed with the Terran QQ of 2012. Thread is not about me, don't let kyo try to derail it. Thread is about widow mine efficiency. To which I replied I disagree(about mines), and many others pro players do as well. Every time I've played you in HotS you've never once utilized widow mines correctly as other players such as Morrow have. In fact, I still have not seen another play Mech as well as he has and that was nearly a month ago :/ So the point I'm making here is: If you actually know how to use the unit correctly, and at the right timings it's incredibly good. I do suggest, similarly, that mines shouldn't have a supply cost. Honestly, I think they should just use BW mines... @_@ Edit: I think you're missing my point. I only called you out specifically because.. again... the information you bring to the community is incredibly skewed. Essentially, your argument is valid, but not sound. @_@ + Show Spoiler +http://www.iep.utm.edu/val-snd/ here is some simple logical reasoning you can reference if you'd like to understand the above
Then describe how to use them correctly and the correct timings to use them. Just because your are a good player doesn't mean you don't have to support your arguments. Nobody can respond to an argument of "you just aren't using them well enough!".
Saying nobody played Mech vs P as good as Morrow is really a dumb thing to say. He gave it up because he didn't think it was good, so copying how he played it is a recipe for failure. I'm sure Morrow played well because he was far and away the best player consistently playing the Beta, but that doesn't mean HOW he played Mech vs P was solid or a good style to replicate. Morrow beat most players by just being better than them, you are confusing that with his style being solid in and of itself.
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just go into unit tester and watch widow mines take on tier3 with great cost efficiency.
you would completely agree with this change.
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On December 22 2012 03:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 22 2012 03:30 Big J wrote:On December 22 2012 03:14 avilo wrote:On December 22 2012 02:56 Big J wrote: Stopped reading after avilo - "mines that cost supply cannot be balanced to be good" - wrote that they were getting reasonable in the lategame. Everything I believed in is in shambles... Time to rethink my life. Well, the last drilling claw upgrade that was added started to allow them to pay themselves off slightly more often. It's still debatable if they're good lategame haha. But you know of course, anytime Terran gets anything that's looking to be remotely viable lategame it's AXED immediately, we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we? At least not on fair terms, they have to work for it through 10 range fungals. The mine itself still has the same design flaw that it's had since the beginning of the beta - it's supply inefficient, and easy to handle by high calibre players. It can either be really strong vs noobs, or extremely weak vs pros. As the game gets more figured out, a 2 supply mine is going to end up sucking, and Terran gets none the better for it in the expansion. But yeh, i said when they first started the beta that it was ridiculous to have a mine be any supply cost, it should have been live tested at 0 supply, and 2 supply, with other changes. It never was for some reason, which i mostly think is because they refused to have something so similar to the brood war spider mine, a tried and tested unit for over 12 years. We all know this isn't brood war, and nor should it be. But come on. You have to be a fool to not live test a 0 supply version of the mine that adds depth to SC2. -_- The spider mine was on a really crappy unit and in the game from the get-go. If you wanted mines, you had to go for vultures, which weren't all that useful (in later stages of the game) after putting down mines - at least compared to something like a hellion. I think 0 supply units have been proven to be very problematic in WoL by the IT. And that is still limited to 8/infestor. Imagine any ~200/200 stalematesituation and then tell me that the ability to add mines (if built straight by the factory) wouldn't be extremly problematic. And if not built from the factory, which unit to put it on? It would have to be a kind of crappy unit, to balance out the mine-ability - something that isn't in the game currently, as any unit is being designed to work without mines. Also, the current rocket-launcher design makes any form of 0supply completly impossible Also, from someone who I see telling opponents to "get out" if he reaches mass Air armies on his stream, I don't really accept comments like "we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we". The transition into mass hightier T might be questionable in WoL. But it's being adressed with Raven, Upgrade, Thor changes. I don't really want to join in this argument your having about the Mine--but the Vulture did not ever stop being useful throughout the entire game no matter how long. The only thing they did bad at was killing buildings, the rest of the time they were amazing. I'm not a BW specialist, but from what I have seen, they were mostly used to put down mines and then sacrifice them trying to take out as many workers as you could. But might be wrong. Still don't see a unit on which to put a mine.
"sacrifice" worker kills had a much larger effect on the game in BW than it does in SC2. Being that it takes so much effort to build, rally, then order units to mine. Even causing them to run away for a bit reduced mining time by a lot since simply box selecting them and right clicking on a mineral node would cause 12 to clump in front of a mineral as they waited for their turn to start mining as if there were no other mineral patches in the line.
It was also the main form of scouting, map awareness, and was able to snipe templars, fake attacks, and keep tab of unit movement across the map. Vultures were a pretty big deal for terran play in BW.
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On December 20 2012 14:12 codonbyte wrote: I agree, HotS is looking pretty grim for Terran.
You have the strongest early game units, and they got buffed for the late game, not only that going mech is now easier and stronger... how is that grim?
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On December 22 2012 03:18 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:14 Hider wrote:On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly. Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2. I assume you didn't read the OP, or the first sentence of my second paragraph, because what I typed is literally a restatement and then a rebuttle+reasoning. Feel free to quote something to prove otherwise.
You have a simplified understanding of the problems with the widow mine because this unit is a poorly designed unit which makes it becomes "overpowered" in some situations, but actually useless in other situations (which are those situations where it actually should be usefull as it this could create interesting games).
Also Avilo was talking about the widow mine, not about bio tvp.
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On December 22 2012 03:28 -Kyo- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:22 avilo wrote:On December 22 2012 03:21 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 03:14 Hider wrote:On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly. Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2. Well he is top 100 GM and in the Complexity Academy, so I am going to assume is his kinda good as SC2 and knows what he is talking about. Much like the Zerg QQ of early SC2, I think some people are annoyed with the Terran QQ of 2012. Thread is not about me, don't let kyo try to derail it. Thread is about widow mine efficiency. To which I replied I disagree(about mines), and many others pro players do as well. Every time I've played you in HotS you've never once utilized widow mines correctly as other players such as Morrow have. In fact, I still have not seen another play Mech as well as he has and that was nearly a month ago :/ So the point I'm making here is: If you actually know how to use the unit correctly, and at the right timings it's incredibly good. I do suggest, similarly, that mines shouldn't have a supply cost. Honestly, I think they should just use BW mines... @_@ Edit: I think you're missing my point. I only called you out specifically because.. again... the information you bring to the community is incredibly skewed. Essentially, your argument is valid, but not sound. @_@ + Show Spoiler +http://www.iep.utm.edu/val-snd/ here is some simple logical reasoning you can reference if you'd like to understand the above
Morrow didn't (when he played hots) use widow mines except for early games gimmicks.
Also Kyo have you even read the most recent patch notes?
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On December 22 2012 04:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:41 Big J wrote:On December 22 2012 03:36 Thieving Magpie wrote:On December 22 2012 03:30 Big J wrote:On December 22 2012 03:14 avilo wrote:On December 22 2012 02:56 Big J wrote: Stopped reading after avilo - "mines that cost supply cannot be balanced to be good" - wrote that they were getting reasonable in the lategame. Everything I believed in is in shambles... Time to rethink my life. Well, the last drilling claw upgrade that was added started to allow them to pay themselves off slightly more often. It's still debatable if they're good lategame haha. But you know of course, anytime Terran gets anything that's looking to be remotely viable lategame it's AXED immediately, we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we? At least not on fair terms, they have to work for it through 10 range fungals. The mine itself still has the same design flaw that it's had since the beginning of the beta - it's supply inefficient, and easy to handle by high calibre players. It can either be really strong vs noobs, or extremely weak vs pros. As the game gets more figured out, a 2 supply mine is going to end up sucking, and Terran gets none the better for it in the expansion. But yeh, i said when they first started the beta that it was ridiculous to have a mine be any supply cost, it should have been live tested at 0 supply, and 2 supply, with other changes. It never was for some reason, which i mostly think is because they refused to have something so similar to the brood war spider mine, a tried and tested unit for over 12 years. We all know this isn't brood war, and nor should it be. But come on. You have to be a fool to not live test a 0 supply version of the mine that adds depth to SC2. -_- The spider mine was on a really crappy unit and in the game from the get-go. If you wanted mines, you had to go for vultures, which weren't all that useful (in later stages of the game) after putting down mines - at least compared to something like a hellion. I think 0 supply units have been proven to be very problematic in WoL by the IT. And that is still limited to 8/infestor. Imagine any ~200/200 stalematesituation and then tell me that the ability to add mines (if built straight by the factory) wouldn't be extremly problematic. And if not built from the factory, which unit to put it on? It would have to be a kind of crappy unit, to balance out the mine-ability - something that isn't in the game currently, as any unit is being designed to work without mines. Also, the current rocket-launcher design makes any form of 0supply completly impossible Also, from someone who I see telling opponents to "get out" if he reaches mass Air armies on his stream, I don't really accept comments like "we can't have Terrans winning past the 15 minute mark, can we". The transition into mass hightier T might be questionable in WoL. But it's being adressed with Raven, Upgrade, Thor changes. I don't really want to join in this argument your having about the Mine--but the Vulture did not ever stop being useful throughout the entire game no matter how long. The only thing they did bad at was killing buildings, the rest of the time they were amazing. I'm not a BW specialist, but from what I have seen, they were mostly used to put down mines and then sacrifice them trying to take out as many workers as you could. But might be wrong. Still don't see a unit on which to put a mine. "sacrifice" worker kills had a much larger effect on the game in BW than it does in SC2. Being that it takes so much effort to build, rally, then order units to mine. Even causing them to run away for a bit reduced mining time by a lot since simply box selecting them and right clicking on a mineral node would cause 12 to clump in front of a mineral as they waited for their turn to start mining as if there were no other mineral patches in the line. It was also the main form of scouting, map awareness, and was able to snipe templars, fake attacks, and keep tab of unit movement across the map. Vultures were a pretty big deal for terran play in BW. Yeah. And now imagine a hellion, which does all of those things better +mines. Or a reaper that can hide mines in your base. Point is, that you would have to tune down any unit you put mines on. The vulture? Not so much. It's straigth up worse than similar sc2 units.
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On December 22 2012 03:21 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:14 Hider wrote:On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly. Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2. Well he is top 100 GM and in the Complexity Academy, so I am going to assume is his kinda good as SC2 and knows what he is talking about. Much like the Zerg QQ of early SC2, I think some people are annoyed with the Terran QQ of 2012.
Which wasn't justified?
Btw terrans don't really complain about balance, but mostly about design. There is a huge difference, and I critizesed Kyo for his simplified view which didn't seperate these 2 issues accordingly.
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On December 22 2012 04:23 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:28 -Kyo- wrote:On December 22 2012 03:22 avilo wrote:On December 22 2012 03:21 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 03:14 Hider wrote:On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly. Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2. Well he is top 100 GM and in the Complexity Academy, so I am going to assume is his kinda good as SC2 and knows what he is talking about. Much like the Zerg QQ of early SC2, I think some people are annoyed with the Terran QQ of 2012. Thread is not about me, don't let kyo try to derail it. Thread is about widow mine efficiency. To which I replied I disagree(about mines), and many others pro players do as well. Every time I've played you in HotS you've never once utilized widow mines correctly as other players such as Morrow have. In fact, I still have not seen another play Mech as well as he has and that was nearly a month ago :/ So the point I'm making here is: If you actually know how to use the unit correctly, and at the right timings it's incredibly good. I do suggest, similarly, that mines shouldn't have a supply cost. Honestly, I think they should just use BW mines... @_@ Edit: I think you're missing my point. I only called you out specifically because.. again... the information you bring to the community is incredibly skewed. Essentially, your argument is valid, but not sound. @_@ + Show Spoiler +http://www.iep.utm.edu/val-snd/ here is some simple logical reasoning you can reference if you'd like to understand the above Morrow didn't (when he played hots) use widow mines except for early games gimmicks. Also Kyo have you even read the most recent patch notes?
He is a GM Protoss player who stream says “Playing HotS” and is in the Complexity Academy, so we can safely assume he has read the patch notes. One might say he is better at the game than any of us.
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On December 22 2012 04:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 04:23 Hider wrote:On December 22 2012 03:28 -Kyo- wrote:On December 22 2012 03:22 avilo wrote:On December 22 2012 03:21 Plansix wrote:On December 22 2012 03:14 Hider wrote:On December 22 2012 03:07 -Kyo- wrote: You really need to stop posting these Avilo. Really, all you're doing is making yourself out to be a worse and worse player when I know you're at least pretty good, though your actual knowledge of the game seems to be quite far off.
I agree with the problem of consistency for sure, but attempting to say that mines are not good in TvP is just a complete lie to the community through your "popularity". If anyone actually plays beta they can tell you right now how FAVORED TvP is for TERRAN. I can say on the basis of quite a few pros, theognis, drewbie and others I have asked during games all think medivacs and mines are simply too strong right now. To say otherwise is just emotional QQ after losing when you played worse than another player.
Honestly, I wish either you'd stop making threads like this when you literally just don't know what you're talking about with balance or you'd just quit like I guess you're attempting to instigate in your thread? Quite depressing to see these so constantly. Wow impressive. You managed to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the problems Avilo adressed. Please dont make these post again, because you have simplified understand of Starcraft 2. Well he is top 100 GM and in the Complexity Academy, so I am going to assume is his kinda good as SC2 and knows what he is talking about. Much like the Zerg QQ of early SC2, I think some people are annoyed with the Terran QQ of 2012. Thread is not about me, don't let kyo try to derail it. Thread is about widow mine efficiency. To which I replied I disagree(about mines), and many others pro players do as well. Every time I've played you in HotS you've never once utilized widow mines correctly as other players such as Morrow have. In fact, I still have not seen another play Mech as well as he has and that was nearly a month ago :/ So the point I'm making here is: If you actually know how to use the unit correctly, and at the right timings it's incredibly good. I do suggest, similarly, that mines shouldn't have a supply cost. Honestly, I think they should just use BW mines... @_@ Edit: I think you're missing my point. I only called you out specifically because.. again... the information you bring to the community is incredibly skewed. Essentially, your argument is valid, but not sound. @_@ + Show Spoiler +http://www.iep.utm.edu/val-snd/ here is some simple logical reasoning you can reference if you'd like to understand the above Morrow didn't (when he played hots) use widow mines except for early games gimmicks. Also Kyo have you even read the most recent patch notes? He is a GM Protoss player who stream says “Playing HotS” and is in the Complexity Academy, so we can safely assume he has read the patch notes. One might say he is better at the game than any of us.
I am just shocked that one could think mines are OP against toss in the current state. I think anyone but Kyo acknowledged that they are useless vs toss. Especially when he references to Morrow (who barely used mines btw), who played HOTS pre-widow mine nerfs. Doesn't make a lot of sense to refer to prenerfs as a "proof" that mines are usefull.
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