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The TSL 2nd Christoph 'Mondragon' Semke talks for the first time about his impressions about the Starcraft 2-Beta. He explains why he thinks that Protoss is imbalanced and what he would like to change. He also tells about his future and the Templars of Twilight.
Interview with Mondragon at fragster.de
Why do you think that Protoss is better than Zerg?
Mondragon: Mostly it´s because the Protoss have a lot of strategies to cope with. In the early game you can do a lot with Zealots because the Zerglings are weaker than the Broodwar ones. Also I think that the Protoss can surprise Zerg with way too strong Warpgates or you can just rush with them. And the Protoss have the most awesome unit of the whole game – the Colossus.
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hm everyone else has been saying its Z>P
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
has he played the beta since the first week?
A LOT of what he is complaining about has been fixed.. and if he is still complaining about it he has unreal expectations hehe
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Yeah i'm curious what this guys is smoking and why isn't he sharing?
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The moment I saw the topic name I understood what this is about. Someone who has become top player lately and played sc2 so little that he says what everybody whined about from the start. Does he even know that warps got nerfed?
Anyways, nice interview
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All of this stuff is VERY subjective. From my experiences, Zerg pretty much stomps P unless you let them tech up to late game.
Especially on maps that have extra wide ramps... zergling rushes are pretty much impossible to stop without, at minimum, losing the majority of your probes in the process.
I don't think I've lost a single ZvP yet, mostly because mass Roaches rarely ever fails to take them out at the start, and if by some chance it does a few mutas does the cleanup.
I haven't played any top 8 P users yet, but this works against pretty much any 9+.
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There's the good people and then there's "everyone"
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Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf
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France1916 Posts
Mondragon: Yeah, I think our good old Broodwar is going to die and everybody is going to switch and concentrate on Starcraft 2.
Mondragon himself said it ! R.I.P BroodWar, i'm already feeling nostalgic... :tears:
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The problem with people playing aganist zerg is they let them expand don't take up another base until zerg has like 3 bases and get out macroed and just get rolled.
I think this mostly has to do with zerg encouraged to fast expands due to the nature of how they get units and expanding gets you minerals and map control. Along with the almost free scouting of overlords and zerglings, zerg tend to get a ton of map control early on while the other races don't take the map back. I've been some what successful pvz going fast expand relaying on cannons and sacrificing probes to check for muta timing and roach timing.
But i'm not a protoss main so it's been pretty much a 50/50 dealing with plat players.
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Holy crap a zerg player who thinks toss is imbalanced? That is super duper surprising good lord, would have expected different from a genius bw player like mondi
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If Zerg players are claiming that Protoss is imba, and that Protoss players are saying the contrary, it means that the game is not too far from being well balanced.
It's when x players are claiming that y is imbalanced, and that y players simply deny it that something is most likely fucked up.
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yeah, like InControl said, this interview was not conduced yesterday for sure. fragster.de probably made a series of sc:bw player interviews and publishes them in some specific time order.
It's good to know Mondie will keep up, i hope ToT will also keep up too
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I think mondie is trying to FE too aggressively. I had a week where I stubbornly tried to get my expansion up at the same timing no matter what the toss was doing, but it simply wasn't working.
At times if you scout a shitload of gates you gotta 1base (and suddenly the matchup becomes Z>P again).
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United States4991 Posts
On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol.
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This is probably old or he hasnt played much.. Zerg is more powerfull.
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People need to remember that even though you have an extremely good knowledge of the game, or a lot of experience in pro-gaming, it doesn't make your opinion on balance perfect.
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I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly.
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On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly. going to assume you're trolling hard here, or you're just terrible...
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Well I guess that either this interview was made before the last patch or he just hasnt played much since then cause of his studying, but oh well what do I know i dont have a key
btw. theres a translation error, it says "in zerg-vs-protoss, the heaviest one" its of course meant to say "in zerg vs protoss, the most difficult one" (same word in german,sort of)
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On March 17 2010 05:39 Irrelevant wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly. going to assume you're trolling hard here, or you're just terrible...
eepy.bendez
check out my stats then.
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On March 17 2010 05:41 bendez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:39 Irrelevant wrote:On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly. going to assume you're trolling hard here, or you're just terrible... eepy.bendez check out my stats then. or you could have just posted your stats instead of being a douche
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I would be surprised if collosus didn't get toned down, like movement speed decrease or something, but other than that toss seems to be in a good place from my point of view, which is mostly terran.
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On March 17 2010 05:46 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:41 bendez wrote:On March 17 2010 05:39 Irrelevant wrote:On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly. going to assume you're trolling hard here, or you're just terrible... eepy.bendez check out my stats then. or you could have just posted your stats instead of being a douche
the guy called me a troll, so I gave him my ID so that he can check my stats for credibility.
I'm a douche because you don't have a beta?
you know what? i'll just quote that guy.
"i'm going to assume you're trolling hard here".
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If Zerg players are claiming that Protoss is imba, and that Protoss players are saying the contrary, it means that the game is not too far from being well balanced.
It's when x players are claiming that y is imbalanced, and that y players simply deny it that something is most likely fucked up.
i play zerg.. zerg poops on protoss in sc2. I can expand when I want and they can't do shit to stop it. If they try to expand i'll take a 3rd. zerg can out supply and out expo a protoss in sc2 thanks to queens.
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On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly.
what about mass speedlings i hear thats pretty damn hard to stop... specially on maps with very wide ramps
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I think storm is to good, desimates everything in its path!
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On March 17 2010 05:56 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly. what about mass speedlings i hear thats pretty damn hard to stop... specially on maps with very wide ramps not just wide ramps Mass speedlings is always hard to stop i've won tons of game as zerg taking expos and just out macro and rolling people, i sacrifice overlords to scout tech and army composition keep taking expos and use mass speed lings to contain.
zvp and zvt Speed lings and upgrades is all i go if terran has a planetary defense or goes air i get corrupter kill the air and then corrupt the planetary fortress and kill that sucker.
The only prob with lings is that they start off pretty dam good early and mid game but by late game when they catch up in upgrades and mass units they just get rolled so hard. Ionno what they need to do but they need to nerf mid ish game zerg and buff late game zerg if that's possible
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On March 17 2010 05:51 bendez wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:46 TheAntZ wrote:On March 17 2010 05:41 bendez wrote:On March 17 2010 05:39 Irrelevant wrote:On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly. going to assume you're trolling hard here, or you're just terrible... eepy.bendez check out my stats then. or you could have just posted your stats instead of being a douche the guy called me a troll, so I gave him my ID so that he can check my stats for credibility. I'm a douche because you don't have a beta? you know what? i'll just quote that guy. "i'm going to assume you're trolling hard here".
if your not trolling then its the latter of what he said about you being just terrible. mutas is not the ONLY way to go against toss like u said... l2p
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On March 17 2010 06:08 Virtue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:56 StorrZerg wrote:On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly. what about mass speedlings i hear thats pretty damn hard to stop... specially on maps with very wide ramps not just wide ramps Mass speedlings is always hard to stop i've won tons of game as zerg taking expos and just out macro and rolling people, i sacrifice overlords to scout tech and army composition keep taking expos and use mass speed lings to contain. zvp and zvt Speed lings and upgrades is all i go if terran has a planetary defense or goes air i get corrupter kill the air and then corrupt the planetary fortress and kill that sucker. The only prob with lings is that they start off pretty dam good early and mid game but by late game when they catch up in upgrades and mass units they just get rolled so hard. Ionno what they need to do but they need to nerf mid ish game zerg and buff late game zerg if that's possible
*cough* Adrenal Glands that don't suck. That +20% just does not cut it for late game.
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mondragon is imba. not the protoss.
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On March 17 2010 06:11 Sere wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 06:08 Virtue wrote:On March 17 2010 05:56 StorrZerg wrote:On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly. what about mass speedlings i hear thats pretty damn hard to stop... specially on maps with very wide ramps not just wide ramps Mass speedlings is always hard to stop i've won tons of game as zerg taking expos and just out macro and rolling people, i sacrifice overlords to scout tech and army composition keep taking expos and use mass speed lings to contain. zvp and zvt Speed lings and upgrades is all i go if terran has a planetary defense or goes air i get corrupter kill the air and then corrupt the planetary fortress and kill that sucker. The only prob with lings is that they start off pretty dam good early and mid game but by late game when they catch up in upgrades and mass units they just get rolled so hard. Ionno what they need to do but they need to nerf mid ish game zerg and buff late game zerg if that's possible *cough* Adrenal Glands that don't suck. That +20% just does not cut it for late game. a few zealots and colossus = tons of dead lings maybe 1 2 dead protoss units, mnmnm ball upgraded again. It's not a damage thing so much as an hp thing, units do more damage in this game and zerglings hp hasn't changed sense bw they don't last that long late game when terran has a great healer that doesn't have to deal with shitty ai, better ai that clumps units together and toss has stronger splash units.
I never said adrenal glands suck, i'm just saying lings need a small hp boost late game so that so many things late game when upgrades are done by both sides don't just melt them
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I think title is too misleading, Mondragon merely says that protoss is stronger than zerg, not that protoss is too strong. It's not like he's complaining about it, if you read the interview he says he enjoys zerg vs protoss.
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On March 17 2010 06:10 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:51 bendez wrote:On March 17 2010 05:46 TheAntZ wrote:On March 17 2010 05:41 bendez wrote:On March 17 2010 05:39 Irrelevant wrote:On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly. going to assume you're trolling hard here, or you're just terrible... eepy.bendez check out my stats then. or you could have just posted your stats instead of being a douche the guy called me a troll, so I gave him my ID so that he can check my stats for credibility. I'm a douche because you don't have a beta? you know what? i'll just quote that guy. "i'm going to assume you're trolling hard here". if your not trolling then its the latter of what he said about you being just terrible. mutas is not the ONLY way to go against toss like u said... l2p
i'm going to assume you're trolling hard here or you don't know anything about current state of the beta.
see what i did there?
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On March 17 2010 05:30 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol.
I feel like Z is completely broken in general. Queens break the game. Zerg's responsiveness is too fast and too overwhelming. The extra larva make it impossible to punish zerg for early greed - they can drone away and then instantly make 30 lings when you leave your base with a fast zealot immortal attack, for example - while still rushing lair units, with an expansion up. I also have to complain about the fact that Z units are retardedly cost effective. Roach, Hydra, Muta - INSANELY cost efficient units in small numbers and very difficult to deal with if you aren't VERY well prepared. It's frustrating that Z can make endless ling/baneling swarms to complement small groups of Protoss-like cost effective units, when the other races have no such combinations, or production advantages.
It's similarly difficult as Terran, since z can make enough lings that you just can't attack at all with barracks units, and hydra are the only ground unit that shit on banshees so rushing air isn't always good - plus you have to deal with banelings.
We've been bitching about Z being broken as fuck for a while on vent. The infestor nerf helped, but it's not nearly enough - or rather, it doesn't address the right problem at all.
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On March 17 2010 05:56 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:37 bendez wrote: I've played over 350 games in the beta as a zerg, and Protoss is op.
Our ONLY option is to mass muta, anything else does not work. That is if the Protoss does not do a timing push with immortals to destroy the base in 5 sec.
Roaches/Hydra/Infestors USED to work somewhat, but now infestors can't mind control collossus without getting killed instantly. what about mass speedlings i hear thats pretty damn hard to stop... specially on maps with very wide ramps
speedlings are a bit hit and miss. It is hard to pull off against zealots + sentries blocking the ramp.
So what do you do when you can't do enough damage with speedlings?
muta muta and more mutas.
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On March 17 2010 06:24 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:30 Insane wrote:On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol. I feel like Z is completely broken in general. Queens break the game. Zerg's responsiveness is too fast and too overwhelming. The extra larva make it impossible to punish zerg for early greed - they can drone away and then instantly make 30 lings when you leave your base with a fast zealot immortal attack, for example - while still rushing lair units, with an expansion up. I also have to complain about the fact that Z units are retardedly cost effective. Roach, Hydra, Muta - INSANELY cost efficient units in small numbers and very difficult to deal with if you aren't VERY well prepared. It's frustrating that Z can make endless ling/baneling swarms to complement small groups of Protoss-like cost effective units, when the other races have no such combinations, or production advantages. It's similarly difficult as Terran, since z can make enough lings that you just can't attack at all with barracks units, and hydra are the only ground unit that shit on banshees so rushing air isn't always good - plus you have to deal with banelings. We've been bitching about Z being broken as fuck for a while on vent. The infestor nerf helped, but it's not nearly enough - or rather, it doesn't address the right problem at all.
I know you were telling me this same stuff yesterday. I think this deserves its own thread at this point. It needs to be fixed. Zerg honestly should never lose past earlygame, and even then mass speedlings is completely broken because you can make so freaking many while teching, and with autosurround they are completely ridiculous. Zerg needs nerfs so badly. I can beat them with protoss, but that's only because of storm. Zergs that learn to use infestors/mutas to negate templar are going to be unstoppable ZvP. ZvT is completely broken. Terran can't answer all of zerg's possibilities with only mech or only bio, and going a mix means if they commit hard to one combo you can't stop it.
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I had the feeling zvp was the most balanced match up atm =/
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On March 17 2010 07:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: german doobie Some reason i would think if i said yes i wanted one they would give me a german car that's tiny.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On March 17 2010 06:24 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:30 Insane wrote:On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol. I feel like Z is completely broken in general. Queens break the game. Zerg's responsiveness is too fast and too overwhelming. The extra larva make it impossible to punish zerg for early greed - they can drone away and then instantly make 30 lings when you leave your base with a fast zealot immortal attack, for example - while still rushing lair units, with an expansion up. I also have to complain about the fact that Z units are retardedly cost effective. Roach, Hydra, Muta - INSANELY cost efficient units in small numbers and very difficult to deal with if you aren't VERY well prepared. It's frustrating that Z can make endless ling/baneling swarms to complement small groups of Protoss-like cost effective units, when the other races have no such combinations, or production advantages. It's similarly difficult as Terran, since z can make enough lings that you just can't attack at all with barracks units, and hydra are the only ground unit that shit on banshees so rushing air isn't always good - plus you have to deal with banelings. We've been bitching about Z being broken as fuck for a while on vent. The infestor nerf helped, but it's not nearly enough - or rather, it doesn't address the right problem at all.
Don't worry david, browder has said in his latest commentaries that he will BUFF the z to make em more playable.. it's ok. They got our back <3
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hmm, you know these interviews can sometimes take days/weeks to be "finalized" or what ever, so alot of what he said is due to it being abit late :D.
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protoss are imba but they cant even reach top 10 in zotac cup... why? ;D
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On March 17 2010 07:27 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 06:24 Louder wrote:On March 17 2010 05:30 Insane wrote:On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol. I feel like Z is completely broken in general. Queens break the game. Zerg's responsiveness is too fast and too overwhelming. The extra larva make it impossible to punish zerg for early greed - they can drone away and then instantly make 30 lings when you leave your base with a fast zealot immortal attack, for example - while still rushing lair units, with an expansion up. I also have to complain about the fact that Z units are retardedly cost effective. Roach, Hydra, Muta - INSANELY cost efficient units in small numbers and very difficult to deal with if you aren't VERY well prepared. It's frustrating that Z can make endless ling/baneling swarms to complement small groups of Protoss-like cost effective units, when the other races have no such combinations, or production advantages. It's similarly difficult as Terran, since z can make enough lings that you just can't attack at all with barracks units, and hydra are the only ground unit that shit on banshees so rushing air isn't always good - plus you have to deal with banelings. We've been bitching about Z being broken as fuck for a while on vent. The infestor nerf helped, but it's not nearly enough - or rather, it doesn't address the right problem at all. Don't worry david, browder has said in his latest commentaries that he will BUFF the z to make em more playable.. it's ok. They got our back <3 Well it's about perspective i think zerg looks imba becuase of a vastly different play style that occurs with a fast expanding and queen heavy play style it's about macro. While most toss and terran still run off that 1 base build which worked fine in sc1 when mining speeds and saturation worked differently but now with queens and better ai it doesn't work out so well anymore.
Really the issue is earily game expansion is easy to hold due to zerg units being pretty even earily game but production for zerg being much higher then toss or terran so early game rushes don't work too well, although before the warpgate nerf 3warpgate zealot was ffs hard aganist someone that microed.
It's about balancing the ability to punish early game expansion which i think terran and toss lack compared to zerg.
What i'm thinking is that they can lower the cost of command centers and nexus by like 50 and give a small buff to cannons for toss along with a 50 gas cost reduction to planetary fortress.
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Moondragons says there isn't enough micro, but anything that doesn't involve zerg has seemed very micro intensive to me. I don't see a lack of micro being a problem in the future of SC2.
I have to concur with him on the Roach comment though; they're everywhere and the answer to almost everything.
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On March 17 2010 06:24 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 05:30 Insane wrote:On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol. I feel like Z is completely broken in general. Queens break the game. Zerg's responsiveness is too fast and too overwhelming. The extra larva make it impossible to punish zerg for early greed - they can drone away and then instantly make 30 lings when you leave your base with a fast zealot immortal attack, for example - while still rushing lair units, with an expansion up. I also have to complain about the fact that Z units are retardedly cost effective. Roach, Hydra, Muta - INSANELY cost efficient units in small numbers and very difficult to deal with if you aren't VERY well prepared. It's frustrating that Z can make endless ling/baneling swarms to complement small groups of Protoss-like cost effective units, when the other races have no such combinations, or production advantages. It's similarly difficult as Terran, since z can make enough lings that you just can't attack at all with barracks units, and hydra are the only ground unit that shit on banshees so rushing air isn't always good - plus you have to deal with banelings. We've been bitching about Z being broken as fuck for a while on vent. The infestor nerf helped, but it's not nearly enough - or rather, it doesn't address the right problem at all.
i think u have the word
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On March 17 2010 07:39 Virtue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 07:27 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On March 17 2010 06:24 Louder wrote:On March 17 2010 05:30 Insane wrote:On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol. I feel like Z is completely broken in general. Queens break the game. Zerg's responsiveness is too fast and too overwhelming. The extra larva make it impossible to punish zerg for early greed - they can drone away and then instantly make 30 lings when you leave your base with a fast zealot immortal attack, for example - while still rushing lair units, with an expansion up. I also have to complain about the fact that Z units are retardedly cost effective. Roach, Hydra, Muta - INSANELY cost efficient units in small numbers and very difficult to deal with if you aren't VERY well prepared. It's frustrating that Z can make endless ling/baneling swarms to complement small groups of Protoss-like cost effective units, when the other races have no such combinations, or production advantages. It's similarly difficult as Terran, since z can make enough lings that you just can't attack at all with barracks units, and hydra are the only ground unit that shit on banshees so rushing air isn't always good - plus you have to deal with banelings. We've been bitching about Z being broken as fuck for a while on vent. The infestor nerf helped, but it's not nearly enough - or rather, it doesn't address the right problem at all. Don't worry david, browder has said in his latest commentaries that he will BUFF the z to make em more playable.. it's ok. They got our back <3 Well it's about perspective i think zerg looks imba becuase of a vastly different play style that occurs with a fast expanding and queen heavy play style it's about macro. While most toss and terran still run off that 1 base build which worked fine in sc1 when mining speeds and saturation worked differently but now with queens and better ai it doesn't work out so well anymore. Really the issue is earily game expansion is easy to hold due to zerg units being pretty even earily game but production for zerg being much higher then toss or terran so early game rushes don't work too well, although before the warpgate nerf 3warpgate zealot was ffs hard aganist someone that microed. It's about balancing the ability to punish early game expansion which i think terran and toss lack compared to zerg. What i'm thinking is that they can lower the cost of command centers and nexus by like 50 and give a small buff to cannons for toss along with a 50 gas cost reduction to planetary fortress.
Its still impossible on most maps to use cannons to expand, due to the nat being too open/having too many points of entry/ destructible rock back entrance. so it wouldnt solve the problem completely. And decrease in nexus/CC cost? really? Its not the fact that the expansion costs 400, its that its impossible to defend against a zerg who plays agressively when you expand, seeing as zerg can outproduce a terran/toss REALLY hard early on
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i see where mondragon is coming from. Mondragon is an aggro zerg used to press action, not a macro and defend zerg. and zerg doesnt have any effective offensive cop abilities right now.
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Tbh the only reason P can't compete early on is because of roaches, roaches are just awesome against anything, and if you do a zealot rush banelings will cream them.
All P is doing now is wall in and tech to immortal to have a roach counter, or attempt a FE.
Tbh, it doesn't seem like it's harder for one race to beat the other, allthough i'm slightly biased against Zerg, i'd just really like to see some way of competing against the zerg early on, could involve making stalkers actually beat Roaches - and to the people who say stalkers beat roaches with micro, hum, no not really, maybe in larger numbers, but early on - no.
So, why not make the stalker a more viable unit, and decrease damage of Immortals and have immortals keep their tank role.
Right now Immortals are not just insane tanks they also deal out SO much damage - 3 shots, GG Marauder.
Stalker really should be 10+10 as the marauder is, only thing is these units would seemingly mirror each other too much. Nerfing Immortals down a bit would also open up more tech choices, protoss seems forced into robotics in all matchups at the moment.
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Russian Federation132 Posts
for all who didnt get it, this interview was taken prepatch. All what mondi said about toss was right and was fixed in the next patch.
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On March 17 2010 08:30 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 07:39 Virtue wrote:On March 17 2010 07:27 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On March 17 2010 06:24 Louder wrote:On March 17 2010 05:30 Insane wrote:On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol. I feel like Z is completely broken in general. Queens break the game. Zerg's responsiveness is too fast and too overwhelming. The extra larva make it impossible to punish zerg for early greed - they can drone away and then instantly make 30 lings when you leave your base with a fast zealot immortal attack, for example - while still rushing lair units, with an expansion up. I also have to complain about the fact that Z units are retardedly cost effective. Roach, Hydra, Muta - INSANELY cost efficient units in small numbers and very difficult to deal with if you aren't VERY well prepared. It's frustrating that Z can make endless ling/baneling swarms to complement small groups of Protoss-like cost effective units, when the other races have no such combinations, or production advantages. It's similarly difficult as Terran, since z can make enough lings that you just can't attack at all with barracks units, and hydra are the only ground unit that shit on banshees so rushing air isn't always good - plus you have to deal with banelings. We've been bitching about Z being broken as fuck for a while on vent. The infestor nerf helped, but it's not nearly enough - or rather, it doesn't address the right problem at all. Don't worry david, browder has said in his latest commentaries that he will BUFF the z to make em more playable.. it's ok. They got our back <3 Well it's about perspective i think zerg looks imba becuase of a vastly different play style that occurs with a fast expanding and queen heavy play style it's about macro. While most toss and terran still run off that 1 base build which worked fine in sc1 when mining speeds and saturation worked differently but now with queens and better ai it doesn't work out so well anymore. Really the issue is earily game expansion is easy to hold due to zerg units being pretty even earily game but production for zerg being much higher then toss or terran so early game rushes don't work too well, although before the warpgate nerf 3warpgate zealot was ffs hard aganist someone that microed. It's about balancing the ability to punish early game expansion which i think terran and toss lack compared to zerg. What i'm thinking is that they can lower the cost of command centers and nexus by like 50 and give a small buff to cannons for toss along with a 50 gas cost reduction to planetary fortress. Its still impossible on most maps to use cannons to expand, due to the nat being too open/having too many points of entry/ destructible rock back entrance. so it wouldnt solve the problem completely. And decrease in nexus/CC cost? really? Its not the fact that the expansion costs 400, its that its impossible to defend against a zerg who plays agressively when you expand, seeing as zerg can outproduce a terran/toss REALLY hard early on :p just because you can make scv doesn't mean you should i rather opt for a quick expo as terran followed up by a fast plat fortress and build up forces tvz rather then get some quick scv on my minerals. saving minerals counts early on just becuase most zerg go sdzzzzzzzzzzzz for their production either making all attack or all gathers doesn't mean you should produce one of each just because you could either.
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On March 17 2010 09:07 Sfydjklm wrote: i see where mondragon is coming from. Mondragon is an aggro zerg used to press action, not a macro and defend zerg. and zerg doesnt have any effective offensive cop abilities right now. 1 hatch roach is still pretty dam effective i don't use it but i've played aganist zergs who do.
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On March 17 2010 09:48 Virtue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 08:30 TheAntZ wrote:On March 17 2010 07:39 Virtue wrote:On March 17 2010 07:27 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On March 17 2010 06:24 Louder wrote:On March 17 2010 05:30 Insane wrote:On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol. I feel like Z is completely broken in general. Queens break the game. Zerg's responsiveness is too fast and too overwhelming. The extra larva make it impossible to punish zerg for early greed - they can drone away and then instantly make 30 lings when you leave your base with a fast zealot immortal attack, for example - while still rushing lair units, with an expansion up. I also have to complain about the fact that Z units are retardedly cost effective. Roach, Hydra, Muta - INSANELY cost efficient units in small numbers and very difficult to deal with if you aren't VERY well prepared. It's frustrating that Z can make endless ling/baneling swarms to complement small groups of Protoss-like cost effective units, when the other races have no such combinations, or production advantages. It's similarly difficult as Terran, since z can make enough lings that you just can't attack at all with barracks units, and hydra are the only ground unit that shit on banshees so rushing air isn't always good - plus you have to deal with banelings. We've been bitching about Z being broken as fuck for a while on vent. The infestor nerf helped, but it's not nearly enough - or rather, it doesn't address the right problem at all. Don't worry david, browder has said in his latest commentaries that he will BUFF the z to make em more playable.. it's ok. They got our back <3 Well it's about perspective i think zerg looks imba becuase of a vastly different play style that occurs with a fast expanding and queen heavy play style it's about macro. While most toss and terran still run off that 1 base build which worked fine in sc1 when mining speeds and saturation worked differently but now with queens and better ai it doesn't work out so well anymore. Really the issue is earily game expansion is easy to hold due to zerg units being pretty even earily game but production for zerg being much higher then toss or terran so early game rushes don't work too well, although before the warpgate nerf 3warpgate zealot was ffs hard aganist someone that microed. It's about balancing the ability to punish early game expansion which i think terran and toss lack compared to zerg. What i'm thinking is that they can lower the cost of command centers and nexus by like 50 and give a small buff to cannons for toss along with a 50 gas cost reduction to planetary fortress. Its still impossible on most maps to use cannons to expand, due to the nat being too open/having too many points of entry/ destructible rock back entrance. so it wouldnt solve the problem completely. And decrease in nexus/CC cost? really? Its not the fact that the expansion costs 400, its that its impossible to defend against a zerg who plays agressively when you expand, seeing as zerg can outproduce a terran/toss REALLY hard early on :p just because you can make scv doesn't mean you should i rather opt for a quick expo as terran followed up by a fast plat fortress and build up forces tvz rather then get some quick scv on my minerals. saving minerals counts early on just becuase most zerg go sdzzzzzzzzzzzz for their production either making all attack or all gathers doesn't mean you should produce one of each just because you could either.
If i understand you correctly, you mean players should cut workers to get a faster expo, which doesnt work out because it doesnt give you the eco to make the army that you need to take a safe expo (as protoss at least, not really sure about terran)
On March 17 2010 11:41 MoMaN- wrote: t>z p>z you=useless your opinion=baseless your post=worthless
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On March 17 2010 12:48 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 09:48 Virtue wrote:On March 17 2010 08:30 TheAntZ wrote:On March 17 2010 07:39 Virtue wrote:On March 17 2010 07:27 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On March 17 2010 06:24 Louder wrote:On March 17 2010 05:30 Insane wrote:On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol. I feel like Z is completely broken in general. Queens break the game. Zerg's responsiveness is too fast and too overwhelming. The extra larva make it impossible to punish zerg for early greed - they can drone away and then instantly make 30 lings when you leave your base with a fast zealot immortal attack, for example - while still rushing lair units, with an expansion up. I also have to complain about the fact that Z units are retardedly cost effective. Roach, Hydra, Muta - INSANELY cost efficient units in small numbers and very difficult to deal with if you aren't VERY well prepared. It's frustrating that Z can make endless ling/baneling swarms to complement small groups of Protoss-like cost effective units, when the other races have no such combinations, or production advantages. It's similarly difficult as Terran, since z can make enough lings that you just can't attack at all with barracks units, and hydra are the only ground unit that shit on banshees so rushing air isn't always good - plus you have to deal with banelings. We've been bitching about Z being broken as fuck for a while on vent. The infestor nerf helped, but it's not nearly enough - or rather, it doesn't address the right problem at all. Don't worry david, browder has said in his latest commentaries that he will BUFF the z to make em more playable.. it's ok. They got our back <3 Well it's about perspective i think zerg looks imba becuase of a vastly different play style that occurs with a fast expanding and queen heavy play style it's about macro. While most toss and terran still run off that 1 base build which worked fine in sc1 when mining speeds and saturation worked differently but now with queens and better ai it doesn't work out so well anymore. Really the issue is earily game expansion is easy to hold due to zerg units being pretty even earily game but production for zerg being much higher then toss or terran so early game rushes don't work too well, although before the warpgate nerf 3warpgate zealot was ffs hard aganist someone that microed. It's about balancing the ability to punish early game expansion which i think terran and toss lack compared to zerg. What i'm thinking is that they can lower the cost of command centers and nexus by like 50 and give a small buff to cannons for toss along with a 50 gas cost reduction to planetary fortress. Its still impossible on most maps to use cannons to expand, due to the nat being too open/having too many points of entry/ destructible rock back entrance. so it wouldnt solve the problem completely. And decrease in nexus/CC cost? really? Its not the fact that the expansion costs 400, its that its impossible to defend against a zerg who plays agressively when you expand, seeing as zerg can outproduce a terran/toss REALLY hard early on :p just because you can make scv doesn't mean you should i rather opt for a quick expo as terran followed up by a fast plat fortress and build up forces tvz rather then get some quick scv on my minerals. saving minerals counts early on just becuase most zerg go sdzzzzzzzzzzzz for their production either making all attack or all gathers doesn't mean you should produce one of each just because you could either. If i understand you correctly, you mean players should cut workers to get a faster expo, which doesnt work out because it doesnt give you the eco to make the army that you need to take a safe expo (as protoss at least, not really sure about terran) you=useless your opinion=baseless your post=worthless tvz i've had limited success trying it haven't messed with toss as much but i'm sure i could get the sucess rate up higher if i played them more, I usually expo around 24 supply no matter what race.
I'm sure some sort of cannon and serenity build could show some promise.
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On March 17 2010 09:49 Virtue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 09:07 Sfydjklm wrote: i see where mondragon is coming from. Mondragon is an aggro zerg used to press action, not a macro and defend zerg. and zerg doesnt have any effective offensive cop abilities right now. 1 hatch roach is still pretty dam effective i don't use it but i've played aganist zergs who do. not anywhere near platinum level.
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On March 17 2010 07:39 Virtue wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 07:27 {88}iNcontroL wrote:On March 17 2010 06:24 Louder wrote:On March 17 2010 05:30 Insane wrote:On March 17 2010 05:18 -orb- wrote: Lol what?
Gonna have to agree with inc on this one...
Early zealot builds lol that will get stomped on by zerg with the warp gate nerf More like with the Gateway build time nerf, Zealot shield nerf, and warp gate nerf Playing aggressively early on against Zerg now feels so hard compared to when SC2 first came out, and it was like impossible for Zerg to stop lol. I feel like Z is completely broken in general. Queens break the game. Zerg's responsiveness is too fast and too overwhelming. The extra larva make it impossible to punish zerg for early greed - they can drone away and then instantly make 30 lings when you leave your base with a fast zealot immortal attack, for example - while still rushing lair units, with an expansion up. I also have to complain about the fact that Z units are retardedly cost effective. Roach, Hydra, Muta - INSANELY cost efficient units in small numbers and very difficult to deal with if you aren't VERY well prepared. It's frustrating that Z can make endless ling/baneling swarms to complement small groups of Protoss-like cost effective units, when the other races have no such combinations, or production advantages. It's similarly difficult as Terran, since z can make enough lings that you just can't attack at all with barracks units, and hydra are the only ground unit that shit on banshees so rushing air isn't always good - plus you have to deal with banelings. We've been bitching about Z being broken as fuck for a while on vent. The infestor nerf helped, but it's not nearly enough - or rather, it doesn't address the right problem at all. Don't worry david, browder has said in his latest commentaries that he will BUFF the z to make em more playable.. it's ok. They got our back <3 Well it's about perspective i think zerg looks imba becuase of a vastly different play style that occurs with a fast expanding and queen heavy play style it's about macro. While most toss and terran still run off that 1 base build which worked fine in sc1 when mining speeds and saturation worked differently but now with queens and better ai it doesn't work out so well anymore. Really the issue is earily game expansion is easy to hold due to zerg units being pretty even earily game but production for zerg being much higher then toss or terran so early game rushes don't work too well, although before the warpgate nerf 3warpgate zealot was ffs hard aganist someone that microed. It's about balancing the ability to punish early game expansion which i think terran and toss lack compared to zerg. What i'm thinking is that they can lower the cost of command centers and nexus by like 50 and give a small buff to cannons for toss along with a 50 gas cost reduction to planetary fortress. I like this guy. He's the only one so far that seems to notice this, too. Zerg is the only race that can FE and get away with it by keeping a formidable army against any T/P rush at the same pace. I've seen far too many Z players open up FE with roaches to defend, then mass lings to keep opponent occupied, and all the while using main and expo to hoard econ for at least a dozen mutalisks quick.
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response to up there ^ And zerg is able to do this because of the Queen. The queen just kills how zerg is played. Before larvae was a very key resource and spending it on a unit or a drone makes a huge difference. The abundance of larva by the queen's ability devalues this aspect of play. Before the larva is always used up, there is no such thing as i'll just store up larva and wait for enemy to push out before i mass with all my idle larva. idle larva did not exist.
From my previous post somewhere else: Think about this: In SC1 Z always had significantly less workers than T or P. Generally T/P has 2+ times min patches while Z has 1.5 or less times min patches (especially low econ zergs) Macro zerg has really been a fairly "new" trend in terms of 10 years. With this in mind, zerg units were cheaper than TorP units because that relatively low cost hurts or is felt by a zerg just as the much as a relatively higher cost is felt by a TorP. Producing a group of hydras that cost 75/25 felt like it took a lot of resources because zerg's resources comes in slowly. Now in SC2, producing 12 roaches of the same cost is nothing because zerg has just as much or MORE workers as the game progresses as TorP.
If Zerg had the same # of workers in sc1, zerg would also be extremely powerful. It is not that units in this game is that more powerful relative to sc1. In terms of strength a 75/25 hydra 80hp 10dmg is more cost efficient than a 100/50 hydra 90hp 12dmg. But the ability for zerg to create a high number of hydras in sc2 is easier than creating a high number of hydras in sc1. sc1 requires 7 minutes of macro on 3 bases before 5 hatch hydras start to pump. sc2 requires 2bases and2queens.
There should really be an analysis on how much a larvae is worth and what the queen's spawn 4 larvae ability is actually giving zerg. If a mule is worth 270minerals in 90 seconds, a single queen's vomit is worth more than that. The queen can vomit more often twice as often as one can mule.
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