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On June 12 2011 20:29 m0ck wrote: Thanks for a good post, I think it needs more attention that blizzard's design team for SC2 are somewhat incompetent and not worthy of the engagement and dedication that the game receives from the community. Sad, but true.
they MADE the game ...they are incompetent?...you must be kidding.
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On June 12 2011 20:17 {ToT}ColmA wrote: hm, what the players want is not always good for a game. i feel if they would do something against close spawn on their laddermaps and some tweak for infestor / marauder / ultra i would be totally happy :3
who do you trust more when it comes to starcraft game design? the "players" which dedicated the last 10 years of their lifes to starcraft and know/understand the game at its deepest levels or some random command & conquer dev that just wants some "cool" (cnc units,war of the worlds tripod..) stuff ?
for me sc2 is already getting somewhat boring. i havent playd a ladder game in 2 months and i just watch the big events more for the community then for the actual games instead of soaking evrything up sc related like some months ago. and at this point i dont have much hope for the addons. dont get me wrong, i still love starcraft and will 100% buy both of them but i doubt that team can get sc2 even close to the brilliance of broodwar.
i think broodwar was more of a really lucky shot anyways but they could atleast try to learn from their legacy and the best mulitplayer rts ever made.
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Feels like people in the poll are voting for 'most hated' rather than 'most uninteresting.' Democracy doesn't work!
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Nice thread. Evidently there is something wrong with this design team compared to the one from bw. Check this new units: -Roach -Marauder -Collosi Those are the most boring units of all, also prolly the most powerful ones, and all are 1a unit style.
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On June 12 2011 19:53 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 19:19 decaf wrote:On June 12 2011 19:17 SEANSYE wrote:On June 12 2011 19:07 decaf wrote:On June 12 2011 19:04 SEANSYE wrote:On June 12 2011 19:02 decaf wrote: If they'd stream IdrA talking to Dustin Browder I'm sure 50k people would tune it to watch it. If they took IdrA's advice I would have to go shoot Dustin Browder. Can you elaborate on that a bit more? IdrA's advice isn't in favor of Zerg, he seeks for overall balance - it was him suggesting nerfing the roach during the beta so I'd like to see you backing that statement up. The same guy who prematurely leaves games? or doesn't even give an effort when he is a little bit behind. Like InControl said, "he plays like a robot". Can you elaborate on how this makes him any less credible? IdrA did not know about MMA blowing up his own CC and for him it was the perfect reaction to someone not "sucking". IdrA still gives the best advice. idra thinks he should win every single game not to mention he always whined about terran being weak in bw and now flash is just dominating everyone
Using Flash to indicate how strong terrans are in BW? I hope you realize how wrong and stupid you sound, right ?
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Given that the community is a bunch of clueless whiners, I sure hope Blizzard ignores them completely.
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On June 12 2011 20:32 Huragius wrote: Actually Banelings are a really boring units too, well at least in ZvT. Making tons of them (like 80) and a-moving them to PF/Bunkers/Tank lines followed with Mutas is not the game I want to play. Their splash radius and damage to buildings are just ridiculous. And the amount of micro Terrans has to put in this matchup because of banelings is quite unfair.
It is boring cause you think it is too strong?..prove of exactly what I said. Have you played bw? How many times have you lost units to lurkers for example..you think the micro/scannning etc is unfair there aswell? Hopefully Blizzard wont listen to people such as you..learn to play first.
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On June 12 2011 15:05 Lovedrop wrote: Blizzard employees and community managers are extremely aware at both the state of the game and its players. They read almost every popular community website on a day-to-day basis, and while fans may find their resolution lacking, it is without a doubt that they try their best to find a compromise between their vision of the game and our own.
This actually changed my mind since my post. Quality reposne from Lovedrop.
On June 12 2011 16:18 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +dude changing the speed of the hydras would have a dramatic effect...we can finally freaking stutter micro them and run away when off creep. currently, if you commit in an engagement with hydras off creep, you are forced to fight to the death because they can't run at all.
They're the same speed as terran infantry. Yes, we have stim, but you can't constantly stim. You have creep. Which is just LIKE having stim movement speed for hydras. Just saying. I agree they're under used, but nothing drastic like a speed change.
This on the other hand is like a bad joke. Stutter stepping hydras on creep... yeah. Terrans can constantly stim and move faster than a hydra on creep (assuming medivacs are present) and stim can be used anywhere, including to kite around hydras.
On June 12 2011 16:30 Veritassong wrote: Bowder looks like a Marauder.. ooo their names rhyme too
Thats not a coincidence. He was plugged into the game left and right. From lines in the campaign to units, his face is everywhere. I'd play zerg just not to have to be reminded of it.
On June 12 2011 20:36 gentile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 20:32 Huragius wrote: Actually Banelings are a really boring units too, well at least in ZvT. Making tons of them (like 80) and a-moving them to PF/Bunkers/Tank lines followed with Mutas is not the game I want to play. Their splash radius and damage to buildings are just ridiculous. And the amount of micro Terrans has to put in this matchup because of banelings is quite unfair. It is boring cause you think it is too strong?..prove of exactly what I said. Have you played bw? How many times have you lost units to lurkers for example..you think the micro/scannning etc is unfair there aswell? Hopefully Blizzard wont listen to people such as you..learn to play first.
Please, please, please upload a replay of someone with 80 banelings that wins a game. I'd love to know how to spend 2000 gas and 4000 minerals on suicide units and have an army left over to hold off a counter attack.
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On June 12 2011 20:35 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 19:53 Itsmedudeman wrote:On June 12 2011 19:19 decaf wrote:On June 12 2011 19:17 SEANSYE wrote:On June 12 2011 19:07 decaf wrote:On June 12 2011 19:04 SEANSYE wrote:On June 12 2011 19:02 decaf wrote: If they'd stream IdrA talking to Dustin Browder I'm sure 50k people would tune it to watch it. If they took IdrA's advice I would have to go shoot Dustin Browder. Can you elaborate on that a bit more? IdrA's advice isn't in favor of Zerg, he seeks for overall balance - it was him suggesting nerfing the roach during the beta so I'd like to see you backing that statement up. The same guy who prematurely leaves games? or doesn't even give an effort when he is a little bit behind. Like InControl said, "he plays like a robot". Can you elaborate on how this makes him any less credible? IdrA did not know about MMA blowing up his own CC and for him it was the perfect reaction to someone not "sucking". IdrA still gives the best advice. idra thinks he should win every single game not to mention he always whined about terran being weak in bw and now flash is just dominating everyone Using Flash to indicate how strong terrans are in BW? I hope you realize how wrong and stupid you sound, right ? Boxer oov Nada Flash. It's pretty obvious Terran is the strongest race in BW. Props mostly go to Boxer for showing it when no one would've believed it.
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On June 12 2011 20:36 gentile wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 20:32 Huragius wrote: Actually Banelings are a really boring units too, well at least in ZvT. Making tons of them (like 80) and a-moving them to PF/Bunkers/Tank lines followed with Mutas is not the game I want to play. Their splash radius and damage to buildings are just ridiculous. And the amount of micro Terrans has to put in this matchup because of banelings is quite unfair. It is boring cause you think it is too strong?..prove of exactly what I said. Have you played bw? How many times have you lost units to lurkers for example..you think the micro/scannning etc is unfair there aswell? Hopefully Blizzard wont listen to people such as you.
Yes I did play BW. But did you ? Don't even try to compare cracklings/lurker micro to a-moving banelings into your PF.
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On June 12 2011 20:34 Zechs wrote: Feels like people in the poll are voting for 'most hated' rather than 'most uninteresting.' Democracy doesn't work!
Haha this reminds me of that Winston Churchill quote "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.'
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I did play BW, more and longer then you I am almost sure. And if you dont get what I meant, I simply cannot help you.
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On June 12 2011 14:22 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote + Dustin Browder:
This situation where one unit counters another unit is not as serious as it was in Starcraft 1. Let's say we have a templar fighting a zergling, and the templar always loses. That's a situation where we really see one unit countering another unit. As of now, the balance between unit-counters and micro is better than in Starcraft 1.
I'm sure Browder and the rest of the design team are very smart, but I can't help but feel that they are stuck in their own little world. For example I just don't understand Blizzards fascination with "meat shield units". I mean honestly, every meat shield unit in SC2 is almost universally hated. Thor, Marauder, Roach, Immortal. Blizzard unit design philosophy 101Every race must have a dragoon!A zerg dragoon!A dragoon with stim!Oh wait now protoss isn't as unique, we must make this meat-shield unit, more of a meat-shield!Issues on Unit DesignHeres a quote from their most recent interview on Heart of the Swarm. Show nested quote + David Kim:
As far as learning through the multiplayer, we learned that not everything works exactly as planned - the different roles for the units didn't work as well as we had planned. We planned to have the immortal be more of a meat shield, and have the hardened shield be one of the core mechanics; however, the burst damage ended up being the more important part of the unit.
Show nested quote +David Kim: For example, the Overseer is not a cool unit, it's basically a glorfied scout at this point. We're looking at either taking out or replacing these units that aren't as cool. The other thing that we need to watch out is how these units interact in combination. According to Blizzard the Overseer and Immortal are a high priority for redesign. However the community thinks otherwise (by a huge margin).Poll: Most uninteresting unit?Colossus (863) 56% Roach (216) 14% Corruptor (178) 12% Marauder (79) 5% Mothership (45) 3% Overseer (40) 3% Reaper (26) 2% (25) 2% Immortal (21) 1% (18) 1% Baneling (17) 1% Medivac (8) 1% 1536 total votes Your vote: Most uninteresting unit? (Vote): Colossus (Vote): Roach (Vote): Immortal (Vote): Marauder (Vote): Reaper (Vote): Mothership (Vote): Corruptor (Vote): Medivac (Vote): Overseer (Vote): Baneling (Vote): (Vote):
Second most uninteresting unit poll+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Second most uninteresting unit?Corruptor (344) 49% Roach (118) 17% Marauder (82) 12% Colossus (61) 9% Overseer (36) 5% Mothership (27) 4% Immortal (9) 1% Reaper (9) 1% Baneling (8) 1% Medivac (4) 1% 698 total votes Your vote: Second most uninteresting unit? (Vote): Colossus (Vote): Roach (Vote): Immortal (Vote): Marauder (Vote): Reaper (Vote): Mothership (Vote): Corruptor (Vote): Medivac (Vote): Overseer (Vote): Baneling
Third most uninteresting unit poll+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Third most uninteresting unit?Roach (239) 39% Marauder (112) 18% Overseer (65) 11% Colossus (63) 10% Corruptor (45) 7% Mothership (29) 5% Immortal (25) 4% Reaper (17) 3% Baneling (12) 2% Medivac (2) 0% 609 total votes Your vote: Third most uninteresting unit? (Vote): Colossus (Vote): Roach (Vote): Immortal (Vote): Marauder (Vote): Reaper (Vote): Mothership (Vote): Corruptor (Vote): Medivac (Vote): Overseer (Vote): Baneling
(Sorry if I left out any units in the vote, I can only list so many). ________________________________________ If you tally up the count. You would find that the most hated unit in SC2 (the Colossus) is 10.75 times more hated than the Overseer which Blizzard considers in dire need of redesign. Here is the total tally of the 3 most uninteresting units according to the community.Colossus: 43 Roach: 20 Marauder: 17 What Blizzard considers needs redesigning.Overseer: 4 Immortal: 2 However as this is a list of the most uninteresting units, it is suffice to say that a lot of these units probably need redesigning. ________________________________________ Heres the 3/4 translation from the recent Browder / Sen interview.Show nested quote +On June 09 2011 07:49 NB wrote:sum up for people lazy of loading the video: how do you balance the game: we use pro feedbacks, forums, and stat
Balance process: we have to make sure the balance problem is real, then the balance design team will suggest a fix, if the suggestion solve the problem (should be through test sever), we will apply it to the game
Stat are garther accross bnet and tournament around the world. Currently winrate of all match up are close to 50% so we are satisfied. There is no obvious problem but we are ready to deal with anything pop up. The only recent change is to the 4 gate nerf in PvP to create more play styles. Early indication show that it was a successful patch.
Sen asked: close spawn on maps are zerg imba, is ther solution? we will fix it in the "next season"(?) with half of the current ladder map will be replaced.
Zerg too passive due to design? there is no way for us to know how pros playing the game. there are cases pros fixed things b4 the patch came out. There will be no big change coming out, at least not until HoTS came out. If we find a race is broken, we will most likely to fix it in HoTS. The chance of it being fixed in wings is really small.
Ladder maps are for all players so we intentionally have rush maps in ladder pool. So people in lower league can learn the game. We aware that this will cause pros wont have as much fun on ladder as casual gamers but we have confident that the community wont use the maps that dont work for them in tournaments play.
a lots of pros chinese dont think the game is closed to balanced. Comparing rush in BW and sc2, rushing in sc2 are much powerful and have follow up to them, unlike BW they are heavily punished. (dustin troll the chinese trans at this part, i skip) is it intentionally in design?
no, we just make the game and the pros decided how they will play the game. i dont believe rush are that strong, i dont really agree with the question so i will talk to the balance designed team about that problem (he answered this like trying to dodge the question, press skill lol)
but the rush are stronger than BW we dont make the game based on BW: new engine, new system, 2 games are not the same.
(i cant really hear the question here, the woman speak in low voice =_=) something about HoTS we dont know yet, we are trying to make something that is worthy with this name and to last many years to come...
(they tried some kinda trick questions to make dustin reveal new units in HoTS multi) no we have no idea, we had some horrible stupid units in the pass like the Soul Hunter for example. We still discussing about it.
do you have a timetable to anounce new units? we dont know yet, we will when we have a good idea. "its done when its done"
it is confirmed that we will have new units in multi players. yes
are they being added or replace we dont know yet
beside new units whats gona change in multi players dont know, sorry
are you know but you are just avoiding? no, im truely dont know. i have some personal idea but my team could think its stupid. We will reveal it in blizzcon.
about starcraft 2 dota... you mean blizzard dota
yes, people asking when is it gona be releash we are wasting time, when its ready!
is there anything speacial about this map u wana talk about? its gona be awesome. we are working on the shops. we are recreating the heros completely new from last blizzcon. new systems, new features, new gameplay. we are hoping a game will be 20-30 minutes long compare to normal dota 30-45 minutes so that you can play more games.
all heros from last year has changed? yes
will you borrow stuff from war3 to dota? no,we are trying to design something new completely. the inventory and shop system still there but will be different. We dont know yet but we still working on it.
will there a cross region feature for GM in different sever? our current technology does not allow us to do that just yet. We will look into it but unlikely.
do you think sc2 is harder to watch compare to BW? unit clumps and AoE spell... (they tried to link this to balance design) unit clums means not "horrible pathing". For mordern RTS we NEED good pathing and we think its the future. Its is true that its harder to see if unit clumps but we are trying our best to solve that with the UI. About the AoE, i feel like it makes the battle much more fun to watch (micro challenging). If you dont think Sc2 is a good game to watch, BW is still out there and a lots of people still watch it. SC2 is a different game and different people. Please go back to BW if you think sc2 is not suited for you.
for different players skill are different. in sc2 every units DPS are higher than BW. this make battle happen too fast for lower league. Why dont we adjust the game according to player players? We thought about this but its better to learn the game from the beginning. The exp could be accumulated over time. If you need to learn something, we want you to learn the game as what it is.
more newer player we have added stuff to help them in the single players as well as practice league. We tried to relies mostly on tool to help people improve quickly in lower league.
Some question about the percentage of zerg workers (drone) compare to BW... calculation no, its just what player doing and its not intentional design. infact we expect that question when we decided we will have 2 gas geyser instead of 1 but it turns out ok...
picture taking, hand shaking etc...
edit: im on part 3/4 right now.... gona watch live on three and comeback edit2: done! In the end its us who buys the games, and the pro-gamers who try to create interesting builds and fun games to watch that increases the longevity of the game. I believe the community should be listened to more, especially in interviews, rather than just refuting them with useless examples. I'm pretty sure after a year of constant complaining, when Blizzard caved in and decided to make better maps, that there was an improvement. I mean even back then, the community was given terrible reasons for small maps, I don't see how its any different now with things like dynamic pathing, map control, etc. It was just plain embarassing listening to the recent Browder / Sen interview, where every time some problematic issue was brought up, it was just ignored. I hope Blizzard will listen to the community once more and make the drastic changes that are fundamental to the games progress as both a fun game and an E-Sport.
Wow, I don't remember him saying the first bit. Was that in the Sen meets Blizzard video? Because I watched it, but I really don't remember him making that comment. That's really off putting considering units in SC2 are the opposite of that. There are more hard counters in this game than not. :/
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This game still have too many patches, it need a major change
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We have known this since the first Blizzard reactions after we knew the philosophy behind SC2. This we knew after the first Blizzcon where SC2 was playable. Especially the Testie interview.
Browder himself admitted they are out of touch with the TL community. It is not a problem for him. The game sells. Especially among TL members. Go look at the 'how many copies of HotS' will you buy. TL screamed about boycotting SC2. But in the end those who screamed the loudest bought the most copies of SC2.
On June 12 2011 19:53 Itsmedudeman wrote: not to mention he always whined about terran being weak in bw and now flash is just dominating everyone
Uuh, don't comment if you never played SC BW. Terran by far requires the most skill. This is also why Flash is so strong with Terran. This is also why protoss have so much problems. If Flash played Protoss he wouldn't have a way to be so skilled. SC BW isn't balanced either. People forget this. Blizzard never balanced SC BW. It was balanced through maps. This is why on progamer maps at low amateur skill PvT is incredibly imbalanced. P is just too easy to play and T just way way too hard. When both players get more skilled Terran becomes stronger. P hits the skill ceiling way early because there is little to do with the skill you have. Remember Kwark? He basically hits the mechanical ceiling with Protoss playing with 70 apm. Above his level there is just no way you can outmacro or outmicro an opponent. It has to come from strategy, mind games, etc.
Flash just is so skilled he can use almost all the potential of terran. This is why he is so strong. Because terran was so hard to play, their units could be stronger and have more potential. No one would ever make that potential. Because it is so easy to not make micro mistakes or have bad macro with Protoss, you can have weak units and they will appear to be strong.
Another thing here is zerg and how they make drones or attacking units. This is a very problematic mechanic. If both player agree it is kind of figured out how to play the game, zerg has a huge advantage. Zerg has to go pure drones for a long time and then go pure units with an exact timing. Zerg has to be vulnerable to a timing attack so it can actually have a timing itself. If zerg just makes drones and units at equal amounts he will never be strong and never be weak. If the game is new and the metagame is not fixed, zerg has a huge disadvantage because the enemy can attack at any moment. If there are known fixed and set timings, zerg this now becomes an advantage.
The more perfectly the game is played strategically, the stronger zerg becomes. There is no way for Blizzard to fix this unless they remove drones and larva.
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On June 12 2011 20:35 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 19:53 Itsmedudeman wrote:On June 12 2011 19:19 decaf wrote:On June 12 2011 19:17 SEANSYE wrote:On June 12 2011 19:07 decaf wrote:On June 12 2011 19:04 SEANSYE wrote:On June 12 2011 19:02 decaf wrote: If they'd stream IdrA talking to Dustin Browder I'm sure 50k people would tune it to watch it. If they took IdrA's advice I would have to go shoot Dustin Browder. Can you elaborate on that a bit more? IdrA's advice isn't in favor of Zerg, he seeks for overall balance - it was him suggesting nerfing the roach during the beta so I'd like to see you backing that statement up. The same guy who prematurely leaves games? or doesn't even give an effort when he is a little bit behind. Like InControl said, "he plays like a robot". Can you elaborate on how this makes him any less credible? IdrA did not know about MMA blowing up his own CC and for him it was the perfect reaction to someone not "sucking". IdrA still gives the best advice. idra thinks he should win every single game not to mention he always whined about terran being weak in bw and now flash is just dominating everyone Using Flash to indicate how strong terrans are in BW? I hope you realize how wrong and stupid you sound, right ?
how about boxer,nada,xellos,oov etc then? terran never was weak after boxer showed the world what a "micro" is
terran was hard to play but never weak. that said idra matured alot in the last 1-2 years and while he still likes to make super bold statements hes much more credible now then he was back then.
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"The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom to little souls and inferior intellect."
~Lord Jeffrey
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On June 12 2011 20:43 Cheebah wrote: "The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom to little souls and inferior intellect."
~Lord Jeffrey
Quotation is a far better sign..you see what I did there? ^^
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Lets let them live in their own little world and all go back to bw.... Yaaay. Their ignorance is ridiculous.
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On June 12 2011 20:43 Cheebah wrote: "The tendency to whining and complaining may be taken as the surest sign symptom to little souls and inferior intellect."
~Lord Jeffrey
"shut up and accept evrything shitty or you're stupid"
~Lord Jeffrey
in this context your precious quote is exactly this,great job.
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