Corupptors also own colossi if they have no support. Why exactly would a toss mass out Tempest with no phoenix or void ray or stalker support if enemy builds corruptors? Stalkers and/or Voids+tempest will probably do extremely well against corruptors, same for big balls of mutas, you will probably need to have phoenix support to shoot while they run away and with tempest chasing in the back it prevents the mutas from turning back and shooting at the phoenixes and risk taking damage from the tempest AoE.
[D] HotS Discussion and Theory Crafting PvZ - Page 2
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DaRKMaTT3r
Brazil553 Posts
Corupptors also own colossi if they have no support. Why exactly would a toss mass out Tempest with no phoenix or void ray or stalker support if enemy builds corruptors? Stalkers and/or Voids+tempest will probably do extremely well against corruptors, same for big balls of mutas, you will probably need to have phoenix support to shoot while they run away and with tempest chasing in the back it prevents the mutas from turning back and shooting at the phoenixes and risk taking damage from the tempest AoE. | ||
Dox
Australia1199 Posts
On October 24 2011 11:25 kKagari wrote: The Tempest does not sufficiently fulfill a role by itself that cannot be replicated by the Carrier. By itself its anti air attack is like the thor's, .'. suffers from the same problems of magic box. Dustin Browder mentioned during the HotS Q&A session at Blizzcon that the Tempest splash is much higher than the Thors, so Magic Box isn't an issue. The Zerg player needs to literally spread their units out around the Tempests and isolate the Mutalisk being targeted. | ||
Daralii
United States16991 Posts
On October 24 2011 13:10 Dox wrote: Dustin Browder mentioned during the HotS Q&A session at Blizzcon that the Tempest splash is much higher than the Thors, so Magic Box isn't an issue. The Zerg player needs to literally spread their units out around the Tempests and isolate the Mutalisk being targeted. The radius is about the same as EMP or storm, I think. | ||
PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
also people entirely think mutalisks are good vs toss since they dont' really counter them with pheonix like they should | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
That's absolutely terrible. | ||
usethis2
2164 Posts
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
I have a theory where it might turn into today's ZvT. Except Zerg will be Terran and Protoss will be Zerg. Protoss will be massing air and harassing a bunch of base while Zerg will be trying to defend and macro up to a death ball with Infestors/Vipers/Combat Units, but they'll be doing Hydralisks drops and stuff to keep the Protoss macro in check. We'll have to wait and see for the exact values because a lot of unit's success will depend on energy cost/price/ect. imo On October 24 2011 13:38 usethis2 wrote: Wait for the massive amount of QQ on nexus recall, especially from zergs. It's the single best ability/unit in HotS in my eyes and I hope at least it stays, but not holding my breath. Just think of how expensive/precious the scroll of town portal was in WC3 and how it went through nerfs despite being available to every race. I think they should tweak Chronoboost and Recall to make it an important choice between stockpiling energy for a Recall or consistently using Chronoboost for a decently stronger army/faster tech/faster upgrades. How to do that? I'll leave it up to you guys cause I have no clue | ||
ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On October 24 2011 11:50 Feartheguru wrote: There's gonna be huge changes to the proposals cause if they go through, zerg is gonna completely slaughter protoss. Zerg basically received huge buffs and protoss got a couple of gimmicky units. If they do let all that go through without any changes. We are going to see a whole new meaning to "OP." I actually feel sorry for both Terran and Protoss. Whatever happened to zerg just massing up units and literally swarming their opponent? Now toss and terran need to deal with the swarm PLUS zerg units with all these abilities. Not only that, but they now have 2 siege units; 1 air siege unit and 1 ground siege unit. The have fungal, that hook ability, an aoe ability to reduce ranged attacks to 1, and an air unit which pretty much has free range over the sky (Mutalisk)....... oh and burrowed banelings that can move now. We practically have a race now that can not only mass on the fly, but has all these rediculous abilites. Sorry if this is coming accross as a whine, but I really hope alot of that dosen't pass the beta phase. I just think the expansion is distasteful atm. P.S. The replicator is just stupid. It's like they ran out of ideas for protoss units and said "hmmmm, screw it... we need a unit for toss and we are on a schedule, just put a unit it that can replicate others for now." I also remember at the blizzcon they said that they didn't want to increase the already strong "deathball".... thats not so strong anymore due to getting fungled + that cloud thing that reduces ranged attack." EDIT: It's like they are incorporating HON into SC2.... I think I will just call the Viper the "Devourer." | ||
Whole
United States6046 Posts
On October 24 2011 13:44 ZorBa.G wrote: If they do let all that go through without any changes. We are going to see a whole new meaning to "OP." I actually feel sorry for both Terran and Protoss. Whatever happened to zerg just massing up units and literally swarming their opponent? Now toss and terran need to deal with the swarm PLUS zerg units with all these abilities. Not only that, but they now have 2 siege units; 1 air siege unit and 1 ground siege unit. The have fungal, that hook ability, an aoe ability to reduce ranged attacks to 1, and an air unit which pretty much has free range over the sky (Mutalisk)....... oh and burrowed banelings that can move now. We practically have a race now that can not only mass on the fly, but has all these rediculous abilites. Sorry if this is coming accross as a whine, but I really hope alot of that dosen't pass the beta phase. I just think the expansion is distasteful atm. I also remember at the blizzcon they said that they didn't want to increase the already strong "deathball".... thats not so strong anymore due to getting fungled + that cloud thing that reduces ranged attack." Although I agree that the pulling spell is kind of silly, I think the Dark Swarm thing is kind of needed. It takes way too long for a Zerg to kill a turtling Protoss or Terran. I don't have a problem with that, but sometimes Zergs stop an all-in, but they still have to wait for Hive just to finish them off. If we get really ahead in a game, we should be able to attempt to end the game before Hive. I won't comment on the Swarm Hosts because that unit will all depend on the cost and rate of production to see if it will be bad, balanced, or OP. edit: I agree that burrowed banelings is stupid too lol. and maybe the ultralisks charge was a little too much considering all of the other things they're adding. I have a feeling blizzard threw in a lot of things, but didn't consider the overlapping roles and how the new units would all interact with each other and change the metagame for all matchups. | ||
Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
The Replicant This unit has been getting a decent amount of criticism, and while I think that this unit is kind of lame, it does have the ability to be extremely useful, given the current stats (which are subject to change). Massive theory crafting incoming. The replicant builds in 30 seconds and combined with the ability to copy your own units, complete with abilities/energy, it could allow for some nasty tech-switches late game. Cost of 1 replicant: 200/200/4pop 30sec build time Scenario 1: You have 2 robos already and scout your opponent going for broodlords. Step 1: Throw down stargate, start making replicants 1 stargate = 150/150/60sec 4 replicants = 800/800/ 60 sec (30sec*2=60, and with 2 robos, thats 4 per minute) Step 2: 1 voidray: 250/150/60sec 4 replicants = 800/800/ 60 sec Total: 8 replicants, 1 VR Step 3: 1 voidray: 250/150/60sec 4 replicants = 800/800/ 60 sec Total: 12 replicants, 2 VR Step 4: 1 voidray: 250/150/60sec 4 replicants = 800/800/ 60 sec Total: 16 replicants, 3 VR (19 “Voidrays” total) Subtotal: 1 Stargate: 150/150 16 replicants 3200/3200/64 population 3 VR: 750/450/9 population Total Resource Cost: 4100/3800/73 population Total time cost: 240 seconds (4 minutes) Scenario 2: You already have 2 robos and scout your opponent going for broodlords, but you don't like the replicant. You throw down brand-new stargates instead. Step 1: Throw down 3 stargates 3 stargates = 450/450/60sec Step 2: 3 voidrays: 750/450/60sec Total: 3 VR Step 3: 3 voidrays: 750/450/60sec Total: 6 VR Step 4: 3 voidrays: 750/450/60sec Total: 9 VR Step 5: 3 voidrays: 750/450/60sec Total: 12 Voidrays Step 6: 3 voidrays: 750/450/60sec Total: 15 Voidrays Step 7: 3 voidrays: 750/450/60sec Total: 18 Voidrays Subtotal: 3 Stargate: 450/450 18 VR: 4500/2700/54 population Total Resource Cost: 4950/3150/54 population Total resource cost with 19 Voidrays: 5200/3300/57population Total time cost: 420 seconds (7 minutes) Conclusion: Making replicants as a tech switch to voidrays from robo tech is not that effective in resource cost, but very effective in terms of time. The strength of replicants is that you can effectively turn your robos into stargates, allowing you to begin constructing “voidrays” immediately upon scouting broodlords rather than having to wait a minute before production begins (stargates take 60 seconds to build during which time you are building no voidrays). Replicants are a good stopgap measure to begin producing voidrays or immortals or high-templar quickly so that you can mass a lot of them ASAP. However, it isn’t a replacement because generally, you end up with a lot more population going into replicants. You also spend more resources in the long run. But if you began using your robos to produce replicants while you made a few stargates, you could have 2 replicants per robo in the time that your stargates are building, and then 2 more replicants per robo per voidray (voidrays also take 60 seconds to build). After you make a few stargates, it is better to just go pure voidrays unless you have a lot of gas to spare, or really need extra units NOW. High Templar: In the case of high templar, you could get about 2 replicants per robo in the time that your templar archives is building (50 seconds), and then another 3-4 while the storm research finishes (110 seconds). This allows you to get full-energy high templar with the ability to storm right after your templar archives is finished. Might be useful: having "HT" with full energy and storm right as your templar archives finishes and not having to wait an extra 110 seconds for storm to finish researching. In general, the warp-in mechanic makes it more reasonable to just make templar after storm finishes though (unless you really need those storms quickly) since the cost for a replicant is so high (200/200/4pop vs 50/150/2pop). The warpgate mechanic means that the replicant's short build-time is not as effective as in the void-ray's case, because in addition to HTs "building" faster (5 sec with warp-in), you also can get them anywhere. Replicants only spawn at robos. Replicants allow you to decide if you want immediate storms for 150 more minerals, 50 gas and 2 pop per templar, or not. Immortal: you can get ~2 replicants in the time it takes to get one immortal (55sec build time), but it costs twice the gas. Dark templar: it's probably not that cost effective due to warp in. The key strength is the ability to trade money for time: building a 3 stargates and then 3 voidrays at a time is a lot slower than making 4 replicants per minute from 2 robos + 1 voidray per minute from a stargate. This allows a protoss who lacks enough production facilities to produce units he needs NOW (including the enemy’s) and gives him time to build up the infrastructure he really needs in the meantime. The downside is that you will pay a higher cost, especially gas and population. | ||
Dox
Australia1199 Posts
On October 24 2011 13:44 ZorBa.G wrote: EDIT: It's like they are incorporating HON into SC2.... I think I will just call the Viper the "Devourer." I definitely won't be the last one to tell you this, but the hook mechanic has been around a LOT longer than HoN has been. | ||
sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
compared to the rest of the new protoss stuff, that seems pretty mediocre, the recall could be extremely strong - makes playing protoss pretty much like playing warcraft 3 where you can portal back if things go badly; as of now, I can't imagine it's going to be implemented this way since it just seems way over the line powerful; why would you need phoenixes/oracles for harass....I'll harass you with colossi and recall back when your stuff arrives or I'll send my whole army to one of your expansions - if you come with a fraction of your army, I defeat it; if you come with your whole army I recall out; if you try to counter I scout it with my observers and recall back to where you are heading just in time (factoring in the time while I can't do damage) | ||
kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
1) If you start massing up phoenix early on, Zerg cannot combat it with either Hydras nor Mutas nor Queens nor Spores. The Zerg is forced t play very defensive on low econ with only 1 base up on the Toss and has to invest heavily in spores. 2) The only good counter nowadays against Mass-Phoenix is either corruptors or just massing speedlings+roaches and attack. Corruptors have no aggressive potential at all and are slower than phoenix and a speedling+roach attack can be dealt with by having good Building-placement, a few defensive structures and good FF's and a small backup-force of gateway-units. There really is no need for the Toss to get a third up early, just because of the constant harrass and the zerg being forced into all-inning or defending heavily on low econ. 3) If the Zerg goes for corruptors and stays defensive, you can easily take a third on the other hand and with corruptors, he has to stay very defensive, cuz phoenix are faster than them and until T3, where the corruptors can turn into BL's, they have no aggressive potential whatsoever. 4) You force the zerg into being very reactive and thats what the Protoss likes: He controls the game, he directs the techswitches and is able to scout them constantly, so you can easily spot opening to go for warpgate-allin's, to take a faster third and/or you see what Units you have to build. Now talking about HoTS, especially the oracle: The oracle will make phoenix play even more viable, by cutting hydra/corruptor/Muta production to completely ensure that the zerg won't ever have enough of them to combat the Phoenix (again, Phoenix can counter their counter, like hydras/queens, just if you have a big enough number of them). It also makes the zerg unable to do any sort of all-in's, by phasing out spawning pools and roach warrens and makes the phoenix-harrass better even against mass-spores heavy defensive-play by simply phasing them out. In Summary: FFE into 2star-phoenix is very viable and stable in WoL, but will get the standard go-to build with lots of more opportunities in HotS from what I was able to gather so far. | ||
ondik
Czech Republic2908 Posts
On October 24 2011 13:58 Knee_of_Justice wrote: Wrote this in another thread, posting it here too. The Replicant This unit has been getting a decent amount of criticism, and while I think that this unit is kind of lame, it does have the ability to be extremely useful, given the current stats (which are subject to change). Massive theory crafting incoming. Can someone finally tell me, how the replication itself works? At first people were saying you needed to be in melee range with the replicated unit, what's not true according to videos. So how is it? Do you need to be in the attack/vision range of the replicated unit? | ||
kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On October 24 2011 17:51 ondik wrote: Can someone finally tell me, how the replication itself works? At first people were saying you needed to be in melee range with the replicated unit, what's not true according to videos. So how is it? Do you need to be in the attack/vision range of the replicated unit? In the vid with the tanks, you saw a dot or sth. over the tanks to see that they've been targeted by the replicant, was a very big range.... I guess you need vision to target it and it has a rather large range, probably larger than the range of tanks firing, cuz the tanks didn't attack the replicant although they had vision cuz of the marines a bit later after they got replicated and the marines attacked into the replicated tanks. | ||
CortoMontez
Australia608 Posts
On October 24 2011 18:04 kickinhead wrote: In the vid with the tanks, you saw a dot or sth. over the tanks to see that they've been targeted by the replicant, was a very big range.... I guess you need vision to target it and it has a rather large range, probably larger than the range of tanks firing, cuz the tanks didn't attack the replicant although they had vision cuz of the marines a bit later after they got replicated and the marines attacked into the replicated tanks. As far as I know, you just need vision of the unit you are replicating, regardless of how far away the replicant is. | ||
Champi
1422 Posts
"ok protoss is having a problem with mutas, so we are gonna make the carrier the counter" this unit will not be made by any protoss who wants to try to counter muta, it is too expensive, it will take too much time, and it is too slow. mutalisks are a fast harrasment unit that appear in the mid game to pin the protoss in their base and keep them on 2 base for as long as possible, and threaten to base race if they try to leave. if you think this unit will be the answer, just imagine in your head scouting a spire with an obs or halluc, and saying to yourself, ok hes going muta, time to make carriers. it just doesnt work, you need corairs to counter mutalisks, imo they should give phoenixes splash damage, or change the ground to air damage of stalkers to do bonus to light instead of armoured, that way they can effectively combat high numbers of mutas | ||
Twinmold
Sweden238 Posts
On October 24 2011 10:50 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: + Show Spoiler [Arc Shield Nexus Ability] + Ability Cost: 25 Energy Duration: 20 Seconds Effect: Friendly Structure gains anti-light weapon. (I think I read somewhere it's 20 damage to light units, don't know for other units) So basically the Arc Shield allows for the entire Protoss base itself to be protected vs small hordes of units. If you're on two bases and maxed nexus energy, you could turn 16 of your buildings into Zergling slayers for 20 seconds, or 8 of your buildings for 40 seconds... Making Zergling runbys an absolute no-go. The maximum amount of energy you can have on a nexus is 100 not 200. So at most 8 buildings for 20 seconds or 4 for 40 seconds if you're on two base. | ||
Basique
Korea (South)40 Posts
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CrAzEdMiKe
Canada151 Posts
On October 24 2011 21:57 Twinmold wrote: The maximum amount of energy you can have on a nexus is 100 not 200. So at most 8 buildings for 20 seconds or 4 for 40 seconds if you're on two base. Thanks for the correction, I modified the OP to reflect the accurate numbers (I was pretty tired when I wrote the OP lol). | ||
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