Hello TL! I was recently participating in a discussion about the Oracle when I began to think of the PvZ matchup in regards the air play... And I'm actually now convinced that air is going to be completely revolutionized for Protoss in particular to the PvZ matchup. To start, I'm going to list out a few key notes regarding the proposed new Protoss units and some new abilities for HotS:
Apparent Cost: 150Minerals/200 Gas, Stargate Speed/HP/Shields: 4.25 Speed (Phoenix/Hellion speed), 20HP, 80 Shields Abilties: Entomb (an AOE spell cast on mineral patches that cover them with a 75HP shield for 45 seconds that denies mining), cost unknown to me See enemy upgrades/production (I don't know if this is a casted spell or if you see whatever the Oracle floats over, but it does as the name implies) Warp Building? (a spell which apparently removes targeted building from play for 45 seconds, which halts research, production, or ability to produce any tech that structure would provide, as well as stop static defense from functioning) The Oracle has no attack
So basically the Oracle is a very fragile but incredibly fast (faster than Mutas) harass unit that can have a number of roles. Not only does it make for a very fast scout to see what the Zerg is up to, it is able to delay tech if they are teching, or delay economy if they are droning REALLY hard. You can halt production on some units but not slow it, as the larva mechanic means that the moment the spell wears off you can build those pretty much anyway. Could be useful for stalling, but not avoidance altogether.
Apparent Cost: 300Min/300Gas, Stargate + Fleet Beacon Speed/HP/Shields: Appears to be medium speed, probably 2.25 like Voidray/ground infantry, I don't know shields or HP but I thought I read somewhere that they had something like 300 Shields and I don't know the life of the unit Abilities/Attacks: No abilities as far as I'm aware, but the ground attack is something like 25 damage a shot, and the air attack is a massive AOE vs light attack.
EDIT:
On October 24 2011 11:19 rpgalon wrote: tempest AtA attack is AoE, 22, 3s cooldawn, 6 range AtG is single hit, 35, 2.2s cooldawn, 6 range
300 hp 150 shield
don't know movement speed
Basically the Tempest is a unit that does solid ground damage, and a LOT of anti-light damage in the air. It takes time to build them but they appear to be very durable ships that can go toe to toe in most fights.
Ability Cost: 25 Energy Duration: 20 Seconds Effect: Friendly Structure gains anti-light weapon. (I think I read somewhere it's 20 damage to light units, don't know for other units)
So basically the Arc Shield allows for the entire Protoss base itself to be protected vs small hordes of units. If you're on two bases and maxed nexus energy, you could turn 8 of your buildings into Zergling slayers for 20 seconds, or 4 of your buildings for 40 seconds... Making Zergling runbys an absolute no-go.
Ability Cost: 75 Energy Effect: As per the Mothership's ability, you can call units back home to the nexus. Units that are recalled this way are unable to move for a short period of time.
This ability itself gives Protoss almost infinite mobility when going for an air army in conjunction with Warp Gate. You can deploy ground reinforcements wherever you choose, and get the fleet back home if you find that you're in trouble (How often have you had that happen where you go for Void Ray harass and the roaches arrive at your door when you're out across the map harassing).
The great synergy that makes Colossus look weak and air play amazing in HotS for PvZ: Phoenix/Tempest.
The usual response by Zerg to air play is pretty simple. Get some extra queens and spores for defense to handle the Phoenix/Void Harass for a bit, and tech to Hydras... At which point you mass up Hydras and the Phoenix just can't kill them quickly enough.
The problem has always been that even if you have a TON of phoenix, the fact is if you lift up all those Hydras you need something to be able to dispatch them quickly... And that unit is really the Colossus. But with the introduction of the Tempest being good against light air, you can now actually be able to mass-lift Hydras and the Tempest will clear them out in no time.
That and the fact that the initial Phoenix/Void harass will become more potent as well, as a result of the Oracle being able to scout out quickly exactly what kind of route the Zerg is going and what the timings are like. Not only that, but you'll also be able to shut down Spore Crawler based defenses... And with Nexus energy saved you can protect your base from a LOT of stuff if you use a lot of Arc Shields and have a number of cannons, you'll be MUCH safer against early aggression.
Later on when you start getting the big guns in the air, the Oracle will stop being a support unit and will take on the role of harass unit... As you'll be able to disrupt, delay and throw off Zerg production. Even a player who deals with the harass extremely well is going to be slowed down. Later game you can't cover your bases perfectly from having Oracles run in and throw down some Entombs or the phase building... Especially since their speed is so great.
I really think the interaction between Phoenix/Tempest is going to be super key. If the Zerg responds by going Corrupters, instead of Tempest you build up more Voids... You would probably only need a handful of Tempests in that army to keep it really strong.
Since you're going Fleet Beacon anyway, you'll be able to easily upgrade your air attack/air armor. Getting Shield upgrades a little more slowly but somewhat in tandem would be very strong as well, since it would bulk up your buildings a little bit making them able to benefit from Arc Shield much more. I imagine using Arc Shield on cannons would be exceptionally effective base defense. Having a few sentries stay at home to guard the fort (like their name implies is their task) will keep your expos pretty well locked up and secure at home.
So I was wondering what you guys think about this. Balance is something that should definitely be reserved for now, as these are the initial prototypes and may not function quite the same way as it appears to be for now. But as a good bit of theorycraft if these units still retain their "core purpose" and the abilities of the nexus remain relatively unchanged... I can see the PvZ matchup looking very ugly for the Zerg... As at this point I'm trying to think of a reasonable way to stop this. It seems really strong and really exciting for me as a Protoss, since I have loved air play vs Zerg since day 1. I have explored air vs Zerg pretty deeply, and I can see these new Stargate units being incredibly potent in this matchup. As said, balance aside because there are a lot of Zerg factors to take into consideration to as well (such as Hydra speed upgrade for instance). But regardless of how balanced the matchup would be, I feel like it would be revolutionized bigtime.
So, please discuss! The information on the new units is to the best of my knowledge, and I would welcome "fact" checks or aditional information on the units and abilities I mentioned. But I gotta say it... I saw these units for Protoss and I smiled. I am really excited for the new Protoss and I think we've got some good times ahead of us.
I think it's gonna be hard to really discuss anything as we haven't had any time to play around with these units. I like how positive you are but I fear it might turn into another balance whine/complain thread based on 30 second clips.
That said, I feel that Toss air might be the key to HoTS.
Hadn't even thought of the Phoenix/Tempest synergy! That seems like it'd be viciously powerful. As a late-game composition you'll still have to deal with infestors, but by going mass air you make BLs useless...corruptors+infestors would still be a powerful combo, and you'll need some ground force to deal with zergling attacks, but the idea is interesting at least.
Well, if Zerg get Vipers then we have a decent way of picking off Colossus and that plus the Hydra speed upgrade means we can use Hydralisks now. Even if we don't use the Viper Pull to snipe colossus we still have Dark Swarm meaning we can shorten Colossus range to 1 and let Hydras actually do work for a change. I'm excited about the Viper if you can't tell.
Also Ultralisks will be more viable in ZvP because Blink Stalkers and Colossus won't be able to endlessly kite them now with Charge, I would half expect Ultras to be the dominant late game choice against Protoss.
I really envision ZvP turning into a situation where Zerg has a semi-Hydra based army in the mid-late game and eventually works to Ultras, meanwhile Protoss tries to use it's Stargate units to pick apart Vipers and keep the Colossus alive.
I really have no clue how Swarm Hosts are supposed to be useful for anything especially in ZvP, so far I can't really think of any decent role for them that people don't already just use Infested Terrans for.
Infestors would still be a problem yes, but keep in mind you'll also know that Infestors are coming thanks to Oracle... Plus you could delay the hell out of them... And delaying Infestor production essentially robs them of a lot of energy. If you delay an infestor from being produced (by phasing out the pit) you in turn buy yourself 45 seconds where that otherwise spawned infestor would be building energy.
Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
On October 24 2011 11:03 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: Infestors would still be a problem yes, but keep in mind you'll also know that Infestors are coming thanks to Oracle... Plus you could delay the hell out of them... And delaying Infestor production essentially robs them of a lot of energy. If you delay an infestor from being produced (by phasing out the pit) you in turn buy yourself 45 seconds where that otherwise spawned infestor would be building energy.
While delaying them will be useful, I'm talking about in a true late-game scenario where both players presumably have reached their ideal tech. Even with infestors though, the mobility of an air army will give you some advantages which might be enough...it'll be a ton of fun to see, definitely going to try this style out
On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
"If the Protoss sees a spire he will just phase it out"
I am sick of the oracle. If this is how the oracle works, then it will be stupidly OP, and will break the game, but if the oracle gets nerfed and doesn't work like this, then it will be just about worthless. In my opinion, the game shouldn't be decided on whether or not the protoss is able to phase out the opponents tech.
On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
i believe the swarm host will be a powerful ZvP tool and will easily force toss to invest in robotics tech to get both observers for detection and colossus for splash. because of this, i'm not sure how easily toss will be able to invest in stargate tech for their new toys without being vulnerable to a hard contain from zerg.
it will also be very important for toss to prevent zerg from getting to viper tech, as dark swarm is such a powerful ability. in combination with the swarm host and their already powerful roaches and lings, toss will have a difficult time dealing with those armies with just zealots. because of this, i'm sure that templar are going to be required in PvZ thanks to both feedback and psi storm to deal with those powerful viper spells.
in general, i think PvZ is likely to look a lot like it did back in broodwar from the zerg's pov, however i'm not sure what the standard will be for protoss. i believe a templar oriented end-game will be the best response to viper play, but i think that a robotics oriented mid-game will be key to fending off the swarm host.
On October 24 2011 11:02 BeeNu wrote: Well, if Zerg get Vipers then we have a decent way of picking off Colossus and that plus the Hydra speed upgrade means we can use Hydralisks now. Even if we don't use the Viper Pull to snipe colossus we still have Dark Swarm meaning we can shorten Colossus range to 1 and let Hydras actually do work for a change. I'm excited about the Viper if you can't tell.
Also Ultralisks will be more viable in ZvP because Blink Stalkers and Colossus won't be able to endlessly kite them now with Charge, I would half expect Ultras to be the dominant late game choice against Protoss.
I really envision ZvP turning into a situation where Zerg has a semi-Hydra based army in the mid-late game and eventually works to Ultras, meanwhile Protoss tries to use it's Stargate units to pick apart Vipers and keep the Colossus alive.
I really have no clue how Swarm Hosts are supposed to be useful for anything especially in ZvP, so far I can't really think of any decent role for them that people don't already just use Infested Terrans for.
I don't know if the blinding cloud will have a effect on the colossis since it don't hit air and collosis is consider ground AND air
On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
It's much harder to magic box an air unit as it is easily able to move back and avoid a surround in the first place. I think I read somewhere that Blizzard was "looking into this problem" for the Tempest. I also edited my post to include a quote from someone regarding Tempest damage:
On October 24 2011 11:19 rpgalon wrote: tempest AtA attack is AoE, 22, 3s cooldawn, 6 range AtG is single hit, 35, 2.2s cooldawn, 6 range
300 hp 150 shield
don't know movement speed
corruptors are going to rape tempest, unless you let then reach a fucking critical nunber like 6-8 tempest
If the AtA attack is just a flat 22 damage and no bonus to light, it might not be AS effective against Hydras as I originally thought it might be... But they will hold their own much better against a lot of Corrupters as well.
The thing I think it key as Protoss is if they are going to go Hydra to deal with your air, then you should tech to tempest... If they go Corrupter, you go heavier on the Void Rays.
The thing about going either tech path is that you're still able to fly around the map and try and snipe expansions... And if your base comes under attack you mass recall home and be able to defend. The nexus abilities are what make it possible I feel, as early on you can save the energy for Arc Shield to defend counterattacks, and later when you have the air fleet up you can mass recall home for defense.
A lot also hinges on the Oracle performing as it should I feel. If the Oracle is reliably able to do what I think it will do, it will be much more difficult for a zerg to get mass mass corrupter or hydra in the first place. If you can phase out geysers you can REALLY cut into gas production for the zerg, and both hydras and corrupters are pretty gas heavy.
EDIT:
On October 24 2011 11:25 kKagari wrote: The Tempest does not sufficiently fulfill a role by itself that cannot be replicated by the Carrier.
By itself its anti air attack is like the thor's, .'. suffers from the same problems of magic box.
If supported by phoenixes against mass mutalisks, it will not perform as well as carrier + phoenix (in terms of ground dps)
The thing about tempest is that it's not going to suffer as heavily from armor upgrades as the Carrier. the reason Corrupters are largely so effective against carriers is that the armor on Corrupters make interceptors do squat for damage. Having the Tempest do "one shot" kind of damage will make them more effective vs Corrupters than Carriers would ever be.
Plus it's like I said, if you see a lot of corrupters, build void rays... The tempest is mainly the method to try and deal with hydras, as you can lift a bunch and nuke the hydras pretty quickly... And I don't know what the upgrade bonuses will be like, but 35 damage a shot to ground is still pretty decent regardless.
To be honest I think the recall ability was an amazing ability for the mothership, and now that the nexus has it I am really afraid for zergs early game vs protoss.
Generally in early game ZvP (as it is now) Z tries to get an economic lead by droning and expanding while poking with one or two lings and leaving them out side the toss's base to watch for him to push out.
If the protoss does push out the zerg must determine if they think it is an attack or just toss going in shark mode, and then the zerg must make units to attack/defend, or more drones.
With recall on the nexus (assuming they can use it earlish game), A toss can be constantly pushing all the way towards the zerg punishing them any time the zerg doesnt have enough units, and the second they look like they might be over run you simply recall without or any loss, and if the zerg over produced defenses, the protoss ought to be economically ahead now and can continue this process until they can simply go crush the zerg.
This is a worry of mine atm about recall being on the nexus (teir 0) instead of the mothership the highest teir unit
There's gonna be huge changes to the proposals cause if they go through, zerg is gonna completely slaughter protoss. Zerg basically received huge buffs and protoss got a couple of gimmicky units.
On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
It's much harder to magic box an air unit as it is easily able to move back and avoid a surround in the first place. I think I read somewhere that Blizzard was "looking into this problem" for the Tempest. I also edited my post to include a quote from someone regarding Tempest damage:
On October 24 2011 11:19 rpgalon wrote: tempest AtA attack is AoE, 22, 3s cooldawn, 6 range AtG is single hit, 35, 2.2s cooldawn, 6 range
300 hp 150 shield
don't know movement speed
corruptors are going to rape tempest, unless you let then reach a fucking critical nunber like 6-8 tempest
If the AtA attack is just a flat 22 damage and no bonus to light, it might not be AS effective against Hydras as I originally thought it might be... But they will hold their own much better against a lot of Corrupters as well.
The thing I think it key as Protoss is if they are going to go Hydra to deal with your air, then you should tech to tempest... If they go Corrupter, you go heavier on the Void Rays.
The thing about going either tech path is that you're still able to fly around the map and try and snipe expansions... And if your base comes under attack you mass recall home and be able to defend. The nexus abilities are what make it possible I feel, as early on you can save the energy for Arc Shield to defend counterattacks, and later when you have the air fleet up you can mass recall home for defense.
A lot also hinges on the Oracle performing as it should I feel. If the Oracle is reliably able to do what I think it will do, it will be much more difficult for a zerg to get mass mass corrupter or hydra in the first place. If you can phase out geysers you can REALLY cut into gas production for the zerg, and both hydras and corrupters are pretty gas heavy.
On October 24 2011 11:25 kKagari wrote: The Tempest does not sufficiently fulfill a role by itself that cannot be replicated by the Carrier.
By itself its anti air attack is like the thor's, .'. suffers from the same problems of magic box.
If supported by phoenixes against mass mutalisks, it will not perform as well as carrier + phoenix (in terms of ground dps)
The thing about tempest is that it's not going to suffer as heavily from armor upgrades as the Carrier. the reason Corrupters are largely so effective against carriers is that the armor on Corrupters make interceptors do squat for damage. Having the Tempest do "one shot" kind of damage will make them more effective vs Corrupters than Carriers would ever be.
Plus it's like I said, if you see a lot of corrupters, build void rays... The tempest is mainly the method to try and deal with hydras, as you can lift a bunch and nuke the hydras pretty quickly... And I don't know what the upgrade bonuses will be like, but 35 damage a shot to ground is still pretty decent regardless.
Theres nothing wrong with the Carrier performing poorly against the corruptor though, corruptors are supposed to hunt capital ships. Its like buffing the roach to penetrate hardened shields because immortals rape them. I just think that carriers will out perform the Tempest in actual play rather than on paper.
On October 24 2011 11:57 kKagari wrote: Theres nothing wrong with the Carrier performing poorly against the corruptor though, corruptors are supposed to hunt capital ships. Its like buffing the roach to penetrate hardened shields because immortals rape them. I just think that carriers will out perform the Tempest in actual play rather than on paper.
Oh I agree and I'm not trying to suggest that the Tempest will be "amazing" against Corrupters. Even though the gas cost for going Tempest is a little higher, you don't have to research Graviton Catapult, you don't have to wait for Interceptors to build and you also don't lose on DPS when interceptors get shot down either.
Carriers are great against Hydras in relatively small numbers... But when you get into big fight scenarios what can often happen is having a bunch of your interceptors shot down and your carriers are instead doing 0 damage... Something the Tempest will not suffer from.
Plus it seems like the Tempest moves at approximately the same speed as a Void Ray... Which allows it to be more mobile and possibly escape if the battle starts going poorly (but then again, now we will pretty much have permanent mass recall going on).
On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
Did you forget about those phoenixes?
So why do we need a Tempest again?
Corupptors also own colossi if they have no support. Why exactly would a toss mass out Tempest with no phoenix or void ray or stalker support if enemy builds corruptors? Stalkers and/or Voids+tempest will probably do extremely well against corruptors, same for big balls of mutas, you will probably need to have phoenix support to shoot while they run away and with tempest chasing in the back it prevents the mutas from turning back and shooting at the phoenixes and risk taking damage from the tempest AoE.
On October 24 2011 11:25 kKagari wrote: The Tempest does not sufficiently fulfill a role by itself that cannot be replicated by the Carrier.
By itself its anti air attack is like the thor's, .'. suffers from the same problems of magic box.
Dustin Browder mentioned during the HotS Q&A session at Blizzcon that the Tempest splash is much higher than the Thors, so Magic Box isn't an issue. The Zerg player needs to literally spread their units out around the Tempests and isolate the Mutalisk being targeted.
On October 24 2011 11:25 kKagari wrote: The Tempest does not sufficiently fulfill a role by itself that cannot be replicated by the Carrier.
By itself its anti air attack is like the thor's, .'. suffers from the same problems of magic box.
Dustin Browder mentioned during the HotS Q&A session at Blizzcon that the Tempest splash is much higher than the Thors, so Magic Box isn't an issue. The Zerg player needs to literally spread their units out around the Tempests and isolate the Mutalisk being targeted.
The radius is about the same as EMP or storm, I think.
Wait for the massive amount of QQ on nexus recall, especially from zergs. It's the single best ability/unit in HotS in my eyes and I hope at least it stays, but not holding my breath. Just think of how expensive/precious the scroll of town portal was in WC3 and how it went through nerfs despite being available to every race.
To me it seems one of two things will happen. 1) The new protoss air will suck so the units will basically not be used (used in a strategy relying on them) unless Blizzard significantly changes them. 2) The new protoss air will be really good, so Zerg will have to mass Hydralisks or mass ?Corruptors?...if this happens, the ultimate outcome will be interesting.
I have a theory where it might turn into today's ZvT. Except Zerg will be Terran and Protoss will be Zerg. Protoss will be massing air and harassing a bunch of base while Zerg will be trying to defend and macro up to a death ball with Infestors/Vipers/Combat Units, but they'll be doing Hydralisks drops and stuff to keep the Protoss macro in check. We'll have to wait and see for the exact values because a lot of unit's success will depend on energy cost/price/ect. imo
On October 24 2011 13:38 usethis2 wrote: Wait for the massive amount of QQ on nexus recall, especially from zergs. It's the single best ability/unit in HotS in my eyes and I hope at least it stays, but not holding my breath. Just think of how expensive/precious the scroll of town portal was in WC3 and how it went through nerfs despite being available to every race.
I think they should tweak Chronoboost and Recall to make it an important choice between stockpiling energy for a Recall or consistently using Chronoboost for a decently stronger army/faster tech/faster upgrades. How to do that? I'll leave it up to you guys cause I have no clue
On October 24 2011 11:50 Feartheguru wrote: There's gonna be huge changes to the proposals cause if they go through, zerg is gonna completely slaughter protoss. Zerg basically received huge buffs and protoss got a couple of gimmicky units.
If they do let all that go through without any changes. We are going to see a whole new meaning to "OP." I actually feel sorry for both Terran and Protoss. Whatever happened to zerg just massing up units and literally swarming their opponent? Now toss and terran need to deal with the swarm PLUS zerg units with all these abilities. Not only that, but they now have 2 siege units; 1 air siege unit and 1 ground siege unit. The have fungal, that hook ability, an aoe ability to reduce ranged attacks to 1, and an air unit which pretty much has free range over the sky (Mutalisk)....... oh and burrowed banelings that can move now.
We practically have a race now that can not only mass on the fly, but has all these rediculous abilites. Sorry if this is coming accross as a whine, but I really hope alot of that dosen't pass the beta phase. I just think the expansion is distasteful atm.
P.S. The replicator is just stupid. It's like they ran out of ideas for protoss units and said "hmmmm, screw it... we need a unit for toss and we are on a schedule, just put a unit it that can replicate others for now."
I also remember at the blizzcon they said that they didn't want to increase the already strong "deathball".... thats not so strong anymore due to getting fungled + that cloud thing that reduces ranged attack."
EDIT: It's like they are incorporating HON into SC2.... I think I will just call the Viper the "Devourer."
On October 24 2011 11:50 Feartheguru wrote: There's gonna be huge changes to the proposals cause if they go through, zerg is gonna completely slaughter protoss. Zerg basically received huge buffs and protoss got a couple of gimmicky units.
If they do let all that go through without any changes. We are going to see a whole new meaning to "OP." I actually feel sorry for both Terran and Protoss. Whatever happened to zerg just massing up units and literally swarming their opponent? Now toss and terran need to deal with the swarm PLUS zerg units with all these abilities. Not only that, but they now have 2 siege units; 1 air siege unit and 1 ground siege unit. The have fungal, that hook ability, an aoe ability to reduce ranged attacks to 1, and an air unit which pretty much has free range over the sky (Mutalisk)....... oh and burrowed banelings that can move now.
We practically have a race now that can not only mass on the fly, but has all these rediculous abilites. Sorry if this is coming accross as a whine, but I really hope alot of that dosen't pass the beta phase. I just think the expansion is distasteful atm.
I also remember at the blizzcon they said that they didn't want to increase the already strong "deathball".... thats not so strong anymore due to getting fungled + that cloud thing that reduces ranged attack."
Although I agree that the pulling spell is kind of silly, I think the Dark Swarm thing is kind of needed. It takes way too long for a Zerg to kill a turtling Protoss or Terran. I don't have a problem with that, but sometimes Zergs stop an all-in, but they still have to wait for Hive just to finish them off. If we get really ahead in a game, we should be able to attempt to end the game before Hive. I won't comment on the Swarm Hosts because that unit will all depend on the cost and rate of production to see if it will be bad, balanced, or OP.
edit: I agree that burrowed banelings is stupid too lol. and maybe the ultralisks charge was a little too much considering all of the other things they're adding. I have a feeling blizzard threw in a lot of things, but didn't consider the overlapping roles and how the new units would all interact with each other and change the metagame for all matchups.
Wrote this in another thread, posting it here too.
The Replicant
This unit has been getting a decent amount of criticism, and while I think that this unit is kind of lame, it does have the ability to be extremely useful, given the current stats (which are subject to change). Massive theory crafting incoming.
The replicant builds in 30 seconds and combined with the ability to copy your own units, complete with abilities/energy, it could allow for some nasty tech-switches late game.
Cost of 1 replicant: 200/200/4pop 30sec build time
Scenario 1: You have 2 robos already and scout your opponent going for broodlords.
Step 1: Throw down stargate, start making replicants 1 stargate = 150/150/60sec 4 replicants = 800/800/ 60 sec (30sec*2=60, and with 2 robos, thats 4 per minute)
Subtotal: 1 Stargate: 150/150 16 replicants 3200/3200/64 population 3 VR: 750/450/9 population
Total Resource Cost: 4100/3800/73 population Total time cost: 240 seconds (4 minutes)
Scenario 2: You already have 2 robos and scout your opponent going for broodlords, but you don't like the replicant. You throw down brand-new stargates instead.
Step 1: Throw down 3 stargates 3 stargates = 450/450/60sec
Subtotal: 3 Stargate: 450/450 18 VR: 4500/2700/54 population
Total Resource Cost: 4950/3150/54 population Total resource cost with 19 Voidrays: 5200/3300/57population
Total time cost: 420 seconds (7 minutes)
Conclusion: Making replicants as a tech switch to voidrays from robo tech is not that effective in resource cost, but very effective in terms of time.
The strength of replicants is that you can effectively turn your robos into stargates, allowing you to begin constructing “voidrays” immediately upon scouting broodlords rather than having to wait a minute before production begins (stargates take 60 seconds to build during which time you are building no voidrays).
Replicants are a good stopgap measure to begin producing voidrays or immortals or high-templar quickly so that you can mass a lot of them ASAP. However, it isn’t a replacement because generally, you end up with a lot more population going into replicants. You also spend more resources in the long run. But if you began using your robos to produce replicants while you made a few stargates, you could have 2 replicants per robo in the time that your stargates are building, and then 2 more replicants per robo per voidray (voidrays also take 60 seconds to build). After you make a few stargates, it is better to just go pure voidrays unless you have a lot of gas to spare, or really need extra units NOW.
High Templar: In the case of high templar, you could get about 2 replicants per robo in the time that your templar archives is building (50 seconds), and then another 3-4 while the storm research finishes (110 seconds). This allows you to get full-energy high templar with the ability to storm right after your templar archives is finished. Might be useful: having "HT" with full energy and storm right as your templar archives finishes and not having to wait an extra 110 seconds for storm to finish researching.
In general, the warp-in mechanic makes it more reasonable to just make templar after storm finishes though (unless you really need those storms quickly) since the cost for a replicant is so high (200/200/4pop vs 50/150/2pop). The warpgate mechanic means that the replicant's short build-time is not as effective as in the void-ray's case, because in addition to HTs "building" faster (5 sec with warp-in), you also can get them anywhere. Replicants only spawn at robos.
Replicants allow you to decide if you want immediate storms for 150 more minerals, 50 gas and 2 pop per templar, or not.
Immortal: you can get ~2 replicants in the time it takes to get one immortal (55sec build time), but it costs twice the gas.
Dark templar: it's probably not that cost effective due to warp in.
The key strength is the ability to trade money for time: building a 3 stargates and then 3 voidrays at a time is a lot slower than making 4 replicants per minute from 2 robos + 1 voidray per minute from a stargate.
This allows a protoss who lacks enough production facilities to produce units he needs NOW (including the enemy’s) and gives him time to build up the infrastructure he really needs in the meantime. The downside is that you will pay a higher cost, especially gas and population.
even though I like your thoughts, very much will rely on the new nexus recall ability
compared to the rest of the new protoss stuff, that seems pretty mediocre, the recall could be extremely strong - makes playing protoss pretty much like playing warcraft 3 where you can portal back if things go badly; as of now, I can't imagine it's going to be implemented this way since it just seems way over the line powerful; why would you need phoenixes/oracles for harass....I'll harass you with colossi and recall back when your stuff arrives
or I'll send my whole army to one of your expansions - if you come with a fraction of your army, I defeat it; if you come with your whole army I recall out; if you try to counter I scout it with my observers and recall back to where you are heading just in time (factoring in the time while I can't do damage)
First of all, I think even in the current metagame, Mass Phoenix could very well be the best way to play against Zerg:
1) If you start massing up phoenix early on, Zerg cannot combat it with either Hydras nor Mutas nor Queens nor Spores. The Zerg is forced t play very defensive on low econ with only 1 base up on the Toss and has to invest heavily in spores. 2) The only good counter nowadays against Mass-Phoenix is either corruptors or just massing speedlings+roaches and attack. Corruptors have no aggressive potential at all and are slower than phoenix and a speedling+roach attack can be dealt with by having good Building-placement, a few defensive structures and good FF's and a small backup-force of gateway-units. There really is no need for the Toss to get a third up early, just because of the constant harrass and the zerg being forced into all-inning or defending heavily on low econ. 3) If the Zerg goes for corruptors and stays defensive, you can easily take a third on the other hand and with corruptors, he has to stay very defensive, cuz phoenix are faster than them and until T3, where the corruptors can turn into BL's, they have no aggressive potential whatsoever. 4) You force the zerg into being very reactive and thats what the Protoss likes: He controls the game, he directs the techswitches and is able to scout them constantly, so you can easily spot opening to go for warpgate-allin's, to take a faster third and/or you see what Units you have to build.
Now talking about HoTS, especially the oracle: The oracle will make phoenix play even more viable, by cutting hydra/corruptor/Muta production to completely ensure that the zerg won't ever have enough of them to combat the Phoenix (again, Phoenix can counter their counter, like hydras/queens, just if you have a big enough number of them). It also makes the zerg unable to do any sort of all-in's, by phasing out spawning pools and roach warrens and makes the phoenix-harrass better even against mass-spores heavy defensive-play by simply phasing them out.
In Summary: FFE into 2star-phoenix is very viable and stable in WoL, but will get the standard go-to build with lots of more opportunities in HotS from what I was able to gather so far.
On October 24 2011 13:58 Knee_of_Justice wrote: Wrote this in another thread, posting it here too.
The Replicant
This unit has been getting a decent amount of criticism, and while I think that this unit is kind of lame, it does have the ability to be extremely useful, given the current stats (which are subject to change). Massive theory crafting incoming.
Can someone finally tell me, how the replication itself works? At first people were saying you needed to be in melee range with the replicated unit, what's not true according to videos. So how is it? Do you need to be in the attack/vision range of the replicated unit?
On October 24 2011 13:58 Knee_of_Justice wrote: Wrote this in another thread, posting it here too.
The Replicant
This unit has been getting a decent amount of criticism, and while I think that this unit is kind of lame, it does have the ability to be extremely useful, given the current stats (which are subject to change). Massive theory crafting incoming.
Can someone finally tell me, how the replication itself works? At first people were saying you needed to be in melee range with the replicated unit, what's not true according to videos. So how is it? Do you need to be in the attack/vision range of the replicated unit?
In the vid with the tanks, you saw a dot or sth. over the tanks to see that they've been targeted by the replicant, was a very big range.... I guess you need vision to target it and it has a rather large range, probably larger than the range of tanks firing, cuz the tanks didn't attack the replicant although they had vision cuz of the marines a bit later after they got replicated and the marines attacked into the replicated tanks.
On October 24 2011 13:58 Knee_of_Justice wrote: Wrote this in another thread, posting it here too.
The Replicant
This unit has been getting a decent amount of criticism, and while I think that this unit is kind of lame, it does have the ability to be extremely useful, given the current stats (which are subject to change). Massive theory crafting incoming.
Can someone finally tell me, how the replication itself works? At first people were saying you needed to be in melee range with the replicated unit, what's not true according to videos. So how is it? Do you need to be in the attack/vision range of the replicated unit?
In the vid with the tanks, you saw a dot or sth. over the tanks to see that they've been targeted by the replicant, was a very big range.... I guess you need vision to target it and it has a rather large range, probably larger than the range of tanks firing, cuz the tanks didn't attack the replicant although they had vision cuz of the marines a bit later after they got replicated and the marines attacked into the replicated tanks.
As far as I know, you just need vision of the unit you are replicating, regardless of how far away the replicant is.
I can't see this unit ever being made, as far as i can tell it is the equivilent of blizzard saying:
"ok protoss is having a problem with mutas, so we are gonna make the carrier the counter"
this unit will not be made by any protoss who wants to try to counter muta, it is too expensive, it will take too much time, and it is too slow.
mutalisks are a fast harrasment unit that appear in the mid game to pin the protoss in their base and keep them on 2 base for as long as possible, and threaten to base race if they try to leave.
if you think this unit will be the answer, just imagine in your head scouting a spire with an obs or halluc, and saying to yourself, ok hes going muta, time to make carriers.
it just doesnt work, you need corairs to counter mutalisks, imo they should give phoenixes splash damage, or change the ground to air damage of stalkers to do bonus to light instead of armoured, that way they can effectively combat high numbers of mutas
Ability Cost: 25 Energy Duration: 20 Seconds Effect: Friendly Structure gains anti-light weapon. (I think I read somewhere it's 20 damage to light units, don't know for other units)
So basically the Arc Shield allows for the entire Protoss base itself to be protected vs small hordes of units. If you're on two bases and maxed nexus energy, you could turn 16 of your buildings into Zergling slayers for 20 seconds, or 8 of your buildings for 40 seconds... Making Zergling runbys an absolute no-go.
The maximum amount of energy you can have on a nexus is 100 not 200. So at most 8 buildings for 20 seconds or 4 for 40 seconds if you're on two base.
I don't see people going for mass stargate, ie phoenix + Tempest. You need ground aoe against zerg sooner or later and it seems to big of an investment.
On October 24 2011 21:57 Twinmold wrote: The maximum amount of energy you can have on a nexus is 100 not 200. So at most 8 buildings for 20 seconds or 4 for 40 seconds if you're on two base.
Thanks for the correction, I modified the OP to reflect the accurate numbers (I was pretty tired when I wrote the OP lol).
On October 24 2011 21:47 Champi wrote: I can't see this unit ever being made, as far as i can tell it is the equivilent of blizzard saying:
"ok protoss is having a problem with mutas, so we are gonna make the carrier the counter"
this unit will not be made by any protoss who wants to try to counter muta, it is too expensive, it will take too much time, and it is too slow.
mutalisks are a fast harrasment unit that appear in the mid game to pin the protoss in their base and keep them on 2 base for as long as possible, and threaten to base race if they try to leave.
if you think this unit will be the answer, just imagine in your head scouting a spire with an obs or halluc, and saying to yourself, ok hes going muta, time to make carriers.
it just doesnt work, you need corairs to counter mutalisks, imo they should give phoenixes splash damage, or change the ground to air damage of stalkers to do bonus to light instead of armoured, that way they can effectively combat high numbers of mutas
There are a lot of problems with the way Protoss and the Mutalisk interact.
The Mutalisk is one of 5 Zerg units that can hit air, one of two that get utterly dominated boy phoenixes.
Due to the unreasonable cost of hydralisks, terrible mobility of queens, corruptors, infestors, and spores, mutalisks are generally the best option for fighting phoenix play, even though they get dominated.
It takes 7 phoenix shots to kill a muta.
It takes 20 muta shots to kill a phoenix.
Phoenixs are faster, deal more damage, have a faster firing rate, have longer range, have more hp, and shields regen faster than muta hp.
Buffing the phoenix is not the answer, it already dominates the mutalisk.
That being said, massing enough mutalisks turns the tables. With fights numbered like 24 mutas to 14 phoenixs, generally 1 of each unit will die per volley.
The Tempest is a good unit for eventually forcing Zerg off muta play, but then you are stuck with the other side of the problem.
How does Zerg deal with an air army from protoss when they can't shoot up and mutalisks aren't viable?
How do zergs deal with air protoss in HOTS? Like they did in WOL. The Infestor. Don't forget about your units in WOL.
Also,
The hydralisk? A mass air army's going to get wrecked by 100 food of hydras. Don't anticipate colossi because they're going mass air and you can change tech too.
Even the really late hive speed upgrade is viable because if they have a fleet beacon and a sizeable air army, I'm sure you can have a hive and an upgrade by then. This mass air army of phoenix+void+tempest will get absolutely shat on by just a mass of zerglings and some roaches. Tempest DPS as we've seen is slow and bad, void rays won't be able to deal with zerglings, and graviton lift against zerglings is just inefficient. A wall-off will be dealt with easy with banelings by the same concept. This is ridiculously cost efficient since these are generally mineral-favored units, though it is larva-heavy, so a macro hatch(or multiple on more than 2-3 bases... in the mid-late game... against mass air...) is pretty damn good. Also, fungal growth is a pretty good spell against the clump of units that will consist of 10 phoenixes. Essentially Free units. None of these units outrange neural either.
On October 25 2011 02:49 Ktk wrote: How do zergs deal with air protoss in HOTS? Like they did in WOL. The Infestor. Don't forget about your units in WOL.
Also,
The hydralisk? A mass air army's going to get wrecked by 100 food of hydras. Don't anticipate colossi because they're going mass air and you can change tech too.
Even the really late hive speed upgrade is viable because if they have a fleet beacon and a sizeable air army, I'm sure you can have a hive and an upgrade by then. This mass air army of phoenix+void+tempest will get absolutely shat on by just a mass of zerglings and some roaches. Tempest DPS as we've seen is slow and bad, void rays won't be able to deal with zerglings, and graviton lift against zerglings is just inefficient. A wall-off will be dealt with easy with banelings by the same concept. This is ridiculously cost efficient since these are generally mineral-favored units, though it is larva-heavy, so a macro hatch(or multiple on more than 2-3 bases... in the mid-late game... against mass air...) is pretty damn good. Also, fungal growth is a pretty good spell against the clump of units that will consist of 10 phoenixes. Essentially Free units. None of these units outrange neural either.
Hydras are very effective against air in it's current WoL form... But I honestly do feel that the Tempest will be much more effective than the Carrier ever was since it appears to be a little faster, and it also does actual splash. I've been able to mass lift hydras before but I haven't had anything to actually kill them off quickly... The tempest will be much better suited to accomplish this than the Carrier IMO.
As for Zergling Roach, keep in mind that ling runbys are not going to be AS problematic as you can transform your base into a bunch of photon cannons via Arc Shield. I could forsee banelings being more of a problem, but as you aptly noted you need a lot of larvae and bases to make that work effectively, and going heavy air as Protoss with the permanent option to mass recall will make it much more difficult to secure bases than in the past for Zerg.
As for Neural Parasite/Fungal... That would definitely be a big big problem for air as if they got off a neural on some Tempests they could shred the Phoenix support rather quickly. But also keep in mind that Phoenixes can lift the infestors to break the neural, and combined with a bit of Oracle harass (basically try and deny that infestation pit for as long as possible) you could keep the Zerg army from getting maxed out too quickly.
The Oracle is the subtle key that I think will allow this all to work. Currently going air in protoss you tech straight to the colossus since you are anticipating hydras. Instead of teching completely differently, you're actually able to create your own timings by delaying that tech from being produced.
It's going to be very cat and mouse, and very exciting to play if you ask me.
If true I don't see ultras being very useful vs protoss anymore.
The big thing that I am interested in is the possibility of Oracles after some sort of forge expand. After a void ray you could make ~2 of them to first do some mineral harass since the zerg will not have many (if any) attacking units at all. Then as you go to push out, you can stasis their roach warren and they would have to hold some kind of 6 gate with +1 weapons with only lings. Stasis lasting 45 seconds is a long time.
Also given that zergs usually do not get much AA, you could harass with them all game for no additional cost.
On October 25 2011 03:17 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: As for Zergling Roach, keep in mind that ling runbys are not going to be AS problematic as you can transform your base into a bunch of photon cannons via Arc Shield.
I think you're overestimating the strength of cannons a little, bro
On the panel, they said the tempest is for 'those extreme late-game scenarios when zerg gets 50 mutalisks against protoss' because 'phoenixes are only good against mutas in small numbers'.
Now as for that statement.... it makes no sense imo. No one makes 40+ mutalisks against protoss. I guess maybe in like silver league there's a big problem where zerg will just suddenly make 40 mutalisks in ZvP, but at higher levels of play, no zerg ever makes mutalisks in zvp lategame. They are used in midgame, around 20-25 mutalisks, for a base trade scenario.
From what I played, it also seems ridiculously OP - but they already know that (they made comments saying that it's way too powerful right now, but it's just concept and they WILL nerf it from it's current incarnation). Not just for it's splash, but because it raped corruptors, and it's ground attack is stupidly strong. I think every other person at blizzcon tried out mass tempests, although most people at blizzcon were low level and probably couldn't use the mouse since they didn't have menu options (so if you were lefthanded, you were screwed, or if you played on less-than-insane-high sensitivity).
The swarm host seems kind of...useless, but I think they know that too. The whole point of the swarm host is when you are already way ahead in midgame, and someone is turtling on 2-3 bases as terran and you want to apply mild pressure on them. I don't think it'll have much use in ZvP?
Everyone thinks viper is op. Destiny said he thinks it's way op when asked.
All the new zerg stuff is hive tech - move banes, hydra speed. I think a lot of the new zerg stuff is mostly useless, with the exception of ultra charge.
I was dissapointed that zerg got new 'base' stuff like protoss got with their nexus.
Also, the "Arc" weapon that protoss nexus has, ONLY hurts light units. Meaning it won't do anything for roaches.
someone correct me if im wrong but the entomb ability of the oracle locks out mineral patches, and as a result, all of the drones move to a mineral patch that can be mined, hence stacking
which is potentially very dangerous in combination with any AoE damage dealer.
eg, cast entomb on 6 mineral patches all 16 (or so) drones stack on the remaining 2 mineral patches cast psi storm which would hit every drone OR colossus drop OR archon drop
anyway, this all depends on drones react when entomb is cast. if they still mill around the entombed patches, this obviously wont work.
If true I don't see ultras being very useful vs protoss anymore.
The big thing that I am interested in is the possibility of Oracles after some sort of forge expand. After a void ray you could make ~2 of them to first do some mineral harass since the zerg will not have many (if any) attacking units at all. Then as you go to push out, you can stasis their roach warren and they would have to hold some kind of 6 gate with +1 weapons with only lings. Stasis lasting 45 seconds is a long time.
Also given that zergs usually do not get much AA, you could harass with them all game for no additional cost.
when i first played sc2, this is how i thought the overseers contaminate ability worked. but i do think this ability could be much too powerful against zerg. as you outlined, protoss can basically control the zerg composition by targeting certain buildings at key times, like at the start of a big 200 v 200 battle. a big part of zerg is being able to tech switch after these large engagements, giving toss a means to influence that part of zerg is not necessarily bad, especially since doing so would require extremely fine control and multitasking, but with the current calibre of players, i definitely think it is possible for it to be used to such a degree that the zerg has very limited options.
but this is all theory, it could be balanced quite well by the time its released :D
^ Even after extensive internal testing and beta, the game likely won't be balanced until about a year after release, just like WoL. The hope is that it's at least 40-60 balance instead of 30-70, and that the game is interesting, rather than roach/hydra/corruptor > stalker/colossi like wol was at launch.
i predict lots of tunneling banelings shall be replicated, despite the steep price. if indeed they're fully upgraded, (buckets of) workers will still pop to a single one.
The coolest thing about new Protoss air is that you'll be ENCOURAGED to clump TONS of units, so that you can recall them all at once! Fungal is no longer the absolute bane to Protoss that it once was~!
On October 25 2011 07:05 Demizzle wrote: I think you're overestimating the strength of cannons a little, bro
Well, even if the Arc Shield ONLY attacks light units, at 20 damage a pop on most of the buildings being attacked, supplemented by some sentries i don't see how Roach/Ling is going to crack through that easily. Plus the fact of the matter is, you're going air... Neither Roaches or Lings shoot up which means one mass recall will allow you to defend outlying expansions in plenty of time.
Air play is already frequently used in PvZ and yes there are Roach/Ling counteraggressions, but most good Protoss players are able to handle it already, nevermind the fact that we might have some incredibly good defensive tools to help us out.
Who knows... maybe future Protoss players are going to make "macro Nexus" lol (not likely i know, but it would be funny nonetheless).