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Hello TL! I was recently participating in a discussion about the Oracle when I began to think of the PvZ matchup in regards the air play... And I'm actually now convinced that air is going to be completely revolutionized for Protoss in particular to the PvZ matchup. To start, I'm going to list out a few key notes regarding the proposed new Protoss units and some new abilities for HotS:
+ Show Spoiler [The Oracle] + Apparent Cost: 150Minerals/200 Gas, Stargate Speed/HP/Shields: 4.25 Speed (Phoenix/Hellion speed), 20HP, 80 Shields Abilties: Entomb (an AOE spell cast on mineral patches that cover them with a 75HP shield for 45 seconds that denies mining), cost unknown to me See enemy upgrades/production (I don't know if this is a casted spell or if you see whatever the Oracle floats over, but it does as the name implies) Warp Building? (a spell which apparently removes targeted building from play for 45 seconds, which halts research, production, or ability to produce any tech that structure would provide, as well as stop static defense from functioning) The Oracle has no attack
So basically the Oracle is a very fragile but incredibly fast (faster than Mutas) harass unit that can have a number of roles. Not only does it make for a very fast scout to see what the Zerg is up to, it is able to delay tech if they are teching, or delay economy if they are droning REALLY hard. You can halt production on some units but not slow it, as the larva mechanic means that the moment the spell wears off you can build those pretty much anyway. Could be useful for stalling, but not avoidance altogether.
+ Show Spoiler [Tempest] +Apparent Cost: 300Min/300Gas, Stargate + Fleet Beacon Speed/HP/Shields: Appears to be medium speed, probably 2.25 like Voidray/ground infantry, I don't know shields or HP but I thought I read somewhere that they had something like 300 Shields and I don't know the life of the unit Abilities/Attacks: No abilities as far as I'm aware, but the ground attack is something like 25 damage a shot, and the air attack is a massive AOE vs light attack. EDIT: On October 24 2011 11:19 rpgalon wrote: tempest AtA attack is AoE, 22, 3s cooldawn, 6 range AtG is single hit, 35, 2.2s cooldawn, 6 range
300 hp 150 shield
don't know movement speed
Basically the Tempest is a unit that does solid ground damage, and a LOT of anti-light damage in the air. It takes time to build them but they appear to be very durable ships that can go toe to toe in most fights.
+ Show Spoiler [Arc Shield Nexus Ability] + Ability Cost: 25 Energy Duration: 20 Seconds Effect: Friendly Structure gains anti-light weapon. (I think I read somewhere it's 20 damage to light units, don't know for other units)
So basically the Arc Shield allows for the entire Protoss base itself to be protected vs small hordes of units. If you're on two bases and maxed nexus energy, you could turn 8 of your buildings into Zergling slayers for 20 seconds, or 4 of your buildings for 40 seconds... Making Zergling runbys an absolute no-go.
+ Show Spoiler [Nexus Mass Recall Ability] + Ability Cost: 75 Energy Effect: As per the Mothership's ability, you can call units back home to the nexus. Units that are recalled this way are unable to move for a short period of time.
This ability itself gives Protoss almost infinite mobility when going for an air army in conjunction with Warp Gate. You can deploy ground reinforcements wherever you choose, and get the fleet back home if you find that you're in trouble (How often have you had that happen where you go for Void Ray harass and the roaches arrive at your door when you're out across the map harassing).
The great synergy that makes Colossus look weak and air play amazing in HotS for PvZ: Phoenix/Tempest.
The usual response by Zerg to air play is pretty simple. Get some extra queens and spores for defense to handle the Phoenix/Void Harass for a bit, and tech to Hydras... At which point you mass up Hydras and the Phoenix just can't kill them quickly enough.
The problem has always been that even if you have a TON of phoenix, the fact is if you lift up all those Hydras you need something to be able to dispatch them quickly... And that unit is really the Colossus. But with the introduction of the Tempest being good against light air, you can now actually be able to mass-lift Hydras and the Tempest will clear them out in no time.
That and the fact that the initial Phoenix/Void harass will become more potent as well, as a result of the Oracle being able to scout out quickly exactly what kind of route the Zerg is going and what the timings are like. Not only that, but you'll also be able to shut down Spore Crawler based defenses... And with Nexus energy saved you can protect your base from a LOT of stuff if you use a lot of Arc Shields and have a number of cannons, you'll be MUCH safer against early aggression.
Later on when you start getting the big guns in the air, the Oracle will stop being a support unit and will take on the role of harass unit... As you'll be able to disrupt, delay and throw off Zerg production. Even a player who deals with the harass extremely well is going to be slowed down. Later game you can't cover your bases perfectly from having Oracles run in and throw down some Entombs or the phase building... Especially since their speed is so great.
I really think the interaction between Phoenix/Tempest is going to be super key. If the Zerg responds by going Corrupters, instead of Tempest you build up more Voids... You would probably only need a handful of Tempests in that army to keep it really strong.
Since you're going Fleet Beacon anyway, you'll be able to easily upgrade your air attack/air armor. Getting Shield upgrades a little more slowly but somewhat in tandem would be very strong as well, since it would bulk up your buildings a little bit making them able to benefit from Arc Shield much more. I imagine using Arc Shield on cannons would be exceptionally effective base defense. Having a few sentries stay at home to guard the fort (like their name implies is their task) will keep your expos pretty well locked up and secure at home.
So I was wondering what you guys think about this. Balance is something that should definitely be reserved for now, as these are the initial prototypes and may not function quite the same way as it appears to be for now. But as a good bit of theorycraft if these units still retain their "core purpose" and the abilities of the nexus remain relatively unchanged... I can see the PvZ matchup looking very ugly for the Zerg... As at this point I'm trying to think of a reasonable way to stop this. It seems really strong and really exciting for me as a Protoss, since I have loved air play vs Zerg since day 1. I have explored air vs Zerg pretty deeply, and I can see these new Stargate units being incredibly potent in this matchup. As said, balance aside because there are a lot of Zerg factors to take into consideration to as well (such as Hydra speed upgrade for instance). But regardless of how balanced the matchup would be, I feel like it would be revolutionized bigtime.
So, please discuss! The information on the new units is to the best of my knowledge, and I would welcome "fact" checks or aditional information on the units and abilities I mentioned. But I gotta say it... I saw these units for Protoss and I smiled. I am really excited for the new Protoss and I think we've got some good times ahead of us.
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I think it's gonna be hard to really discuss anything as we haven't had any time to play around with these units. I like how positive you are but I fear it might turn into another balance whine/complain thread based on 30 second clips.
That said, I feel that Toss air might be the key to HoTS.
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Hadn't even thought of the Phoenix/Tempest synergy! That seems like it'd be viciously powerful. As a late-game composition you'll still have to deal with infestors, but by going mass air you make BLs useless...corruptors+infestors would still be a powerful combo, and you'll need some ground force to deal with zergling attacks, but the idea is interesting at least.
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Well, if Zerg get Vipers then we have a decent way of picking off Colossus and that plus the Hydra speed upgrade means we can use Hydralisks now. Even if we don't use the Viper Pull to snipe colossus we still have Dark Swarm meaning we can shorten Colossus range to 1 and let Hydras actually do work for a change. I'm excited about the Viper if you can't tell.
Also Ultralisks will be more viable in ZvP because Blink Stalkers and Colossus won't be able to endlessly kite them now with Charge, I would half expect Ultras to be the dominant late game choice against Protoss.
I really envision ZvP turning into a situation where Zerg has a semi-Hydra based army in the mid-late game and eventually works to Ultras, meanwhile Protoss tries to use it's Stargate units to pick apart Vipers and keep the Colossus alive.
I really have no clue how Swarm Hosts are supposed to be useful for anything especially in ZvP, so far I can't really think of any decent role for them that people don't already just use Infested Terrans for.
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Infestors would still be a problem yes, but keep in mind you'll also know that Infestors are coming thanks to Oracle... Plus you could delay the hell out of them... And delaying Infestor production essentially robs them of a lot of energy. If you delay an infestor from being produced (by phasing out the pit) you in turn buy yourself 45 seconds where that otherwise spawned infestor would be building energy.
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Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
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On October 24 2011 11:03 CrAzEdMiKe wrote: Infestors would still be a problem yes, but keep in mind you'll also know that Infestors are coming thanks to Oracle... Plus you could delay the hell out of them... And delaying Infestor production essentially robs them of a lot of energy. If you delay an infestor from being produced (by phasing out the pit) you in turn buy yourself 45 seconds where that otherwise spawned infestor would be building energy.
While delaying them will be useful, I'm talking about in a true late-game scenario where both players presumably have reached their ideal tech. Even with infestors though, the mobility of an air army will give you some advantages which might be enough...it'll be a ton of fun to see, definitely going to try this style out
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On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
"If the Protoss sees a spire he will just phase it out"
I am sick of the oracle. If this is how the oracle works, then it will be stupidly OP, and will break the game, but if the oracle gets nerfed and doesn't work like this, then it will be just about worthless. In my opinion, the game shouldn't be decided on whether or not the protoss is able to phase out the opponents tech.
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On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
Did you forget about those phoenixes?
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On October 24 2011 11:14 Zennith wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ Did you forget about those phoenixes?
So why do we need a Tempest again?
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tempest AtA attack is AoE, 22, 3s cooldawn, 6 range AtG is single hit, 35, 2.2s cooldawn, 6 range
300 hp 150 shield
don't know movement speed
corruptors are going to rape tempest, unless you let then reach a fucking critical nunber like 6-8 tempest
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The Tempest does not sufficiently fulfill a role by itself that cannot be replicated by the Carrier.
By itself its anti air attack is like the thor's, .'. suffers from the same problems of magic box.
If supported by phoenixes against mass mutalisks, it will not perform as well as carrier + phoenix (in terms of ground dps)
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i believe the swarm host will be a powerful ZvP tool and will easily force toss to invest in robotics tech to get both observers for detection and colossus for splash. because of this, i'm not sure how easily toss will be able to invest in stargate tech for their new toys without being vulnerable to a hard contain from zerg.
it will also be very important for toss to prevent zerg from getting to viper tech, as dark swarm is such a powerful ability. in combination with the swarm host and their already powerful roaches and lings, toss will have a difficult time dealing with those armies with just zealots. because of this, i'm sure that templar are going to be required in PvZ thanks to both feedback and psi storm to deal with those powerful viper spells.
in general, i think PvZ is likely to look a lot like it did back in broodwar from the zerg's pov, however i'm not sure what the standard will be for protoss. i believe a templar oriented end-game will be the best response to viper play, but i think that a robotics oriented mid-game will be key to fending off the swarm host.
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On October 24 2011 11:02 BeeNu wrote: Well, if Zerg get Vipers then we have a decent way of picking off Colossus and that plus the Hydra speed upgrade means we can use Hydralisks now. Even if we don't use the Viper Pull to snipe colossus we still have Dark Swarm meaning we can shorten Colossus range to 1 and let Hydras actually do work for a change. I'm excited about the Viper if you can't tell.
Also Ultralisks will be more viable in ZvP because Blink Stalkers and Colossus won't be able to endlessly kite them now with Charge, I would half expect Ultras to be the dominant late game choice against Protoss.
I really envision ZvP turning into a situation where Zerg has a semi-Hydra based army in the mid-late game and eventually works to Ultras, meanwhile Protoss tries to use it's Stargate units to pick apart Vipers and keep the Colossus alive.
I really have no clue how Swarm Hosts are supposed to be useful for anything especially in ZvP, so far I can't really think of any decent role for them that people don't already just use Infested Terrans for. I don't know if the blinding cloud will have a effect on the colossis since it don't hit air and collosis is consider ground AND air
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Viper Hooking observers into hydras or even queens would be nice :D
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On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ
It's much harder to magic box an air unit as it is easily able to move back and avoid a surround in the first place. I think I read somewhere that Blizzard was "looking into this problem" for the Tempest. I also edited my post to include a quote from someone regarding Tempest damage:
On October 24 2011 11:19 rpgalon wrote: tempest AtA attack is AoE, 22, 3s cooldawn, 6 range AtG is single hit, 35, 2.2s cooldawn, 6 range
300 hp 150 shield
don't know movement speed
corruptors are going to rape tempest, unless you let then reach a fucking critical nunber like 6-8 tempest
If the AtA attack is just a flat 22 damage and no bonus to light, it might not be AS effective against Hydras as I originally thought it might be... But they will hold their own much better against a lot of Corrupters as well.
The thing I think it key as Protoss is if they are going to go Hydra to deal with your air, then you should tech to tempest... If they go Corrupter, you go heavier on the Void Rays.
The thing about going either tech path is that you're still able to fly around the map and try and snipe expansions... And if your base comes under attack you mass recall home and be able to defend. The nexus abilities are what make it possible I feel, as early on you can save the energy for Arc Shield to defend counterattacks, and later when you have the air fleet up you can mass recall home for defense.
A lot also hinges on the Oracle performing as it should I feel. If the Oracle is reliably able to do what I think it will do, it will be much more difficult for a zerg to get mass mass corrupter or hydra in the first place. If you can phase out geysers you can REALLY cut into gas production for the zerg, and both hydras and corrupters are pretty gas heavy.
EDIT:
On October 24 2011 11:25 kKagari wrote: The Tempest does not sufficiently fulfill a role by itself that cannot be replicated by the Carrier.
By itself its anti air attack is like the thor's, .'. suffers from the same problems of magic box.
If supported by phoenixes against mass mutalisks, it will not perform as well as carrier + phoenix (in terms of ground dps)
The thing about tempest is that it's not going to suffer as heavily from armor upgrades as the Carrier. the reason Corrupters are largely so effective against carriers is that the armor on Corrupters make interceptors do squat for damage. Having the Tempest do "one shot" kind of damage will make them more effective vs Corrupters than Carriers would ever be.
Plus it's like I said, if you see a lot of corrupters, build void rays... The tempest is mainly the method to try and deal with hydras, as you can lift a bunch and nuke the hydras pretty quickly... And I don't know what the upgrade bonuses will be like, but 35 damage a shot to ground is still pretty decent regardless.
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To be honest I think the recall ability was an amazing ability for the mothership, and now that the nexus has it I am really afraid for zergs early game vs protoss.
Generally in early game ZvP (as it is now) Z tries to get an economic lead by droning and expanding while poking with one or two lings and leaving them out side the toss's base to watch for him to push out.
If the protoss does push out the zerg must determine if they think it is an attack or just toss going in shark mode, and then the zerg must make units to attack/defend, or more drones.
With recall on the nexus (assuming they can use it earlish game), A toss can be constantly pushing all the way towards the zerg punishing them any time the zerg doesnt have enough units, and the second they look like they might be over run you simply recall without or any loss, and if the zerg over produced defenses, the protoss ought to be economically ahead now and can continue this process until they can simply go crush the zerg.
This is a worry of mine atm about recall being on the nexus (teir 0) instead of the mothership the highest teir unit
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There's gonna be huge changes to the proposals cause if they go through, zerg is gonna completely slaughter protoss. Zerg basically received huge buffs and protoss got a couple of gimmicky units.
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On October 24 2011 11:45 CrAzEdMiKe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 11:06 kKagari wrote: Tempests will just get magic boxed by mutalisks. I don't imagine them to do well against corruptors either since corruptors are capital ship destroyers, .'. I think Tempests will be useless in PvZ It's much harder to magic box an air unit as it is easily able to move back and avoid a surround in the first place. I think I read somewhere that Blizzard was "looking into this problem" for the Tempest. I also edited my post to include a quote from someone regarding Tempest damage: Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 11:19 rpgalon wrote: tempest AtA attack is AoE, 22, 3s cooldawn, 6 range AtG is single hit, 35, 2.2s cooldawn, 6 range
300 hp 150 shield
don't know movement speed
corruptors are going to rape tempest, unless you let then reach a fucking critical nunber like 6-8 tempest If the AtA attack is just a flat 22 damage and no bonus to light, it might not be AS effective against Hydras as I originally thought it might be... But they will hold their own much better against a lot of Corrupters as well. The thing I think it key as Protoss is if they are going to go Hydra to deal with your air, then you should tech to tempest... If they go Corrupter, you go heavier on the Void Rays. The thing about going either tech path is that you're still able to fly around the map and try and snipe expansions... And if your base comes under attack you mass recall home and be able to defend. The nexus abilities are what make it possible I feel, as early on you can save the energy for Arc Shield to defend counterattacks, and later when you have the air fleet up you can mass recall home for defense. A lot also hinges on the Oracle performing as it should I feel. If the Oracle is reliably able to do what I think it will do, it will be much more difficult for a zerg to get mass mass corrupter or hydra in the first place. If you can phase out geysers you can REALLY cut into gas production for the zerg, and both hydras and corrupters are pretty gas heavy. EDIT: Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 11:25 kKagari wrote: The Tempest does not sufficiently fulfill a role by itself that cannot be replicated by the Carrier.
By itself its anti air attack is like the thor's, .'. suffers from the same problems of magic box.
If supported by phoenixes against mass mutalisks, it will not perform as well as carrier + phoenix (in terms of ground dps) The thing about tempest is that it's not going to suffer as heavily from armor upgrades as the Carrier. the reason Corrupters are largely so effective against carriers is that the armor on Corrupters make interceptors do squat for damage. Having the Tempest do "one shot" kind of damage will make them more effective vs Corrupters than Carriers would ever be. Plus it's like I said, if you see a lot of corrupters, build void rays... The tempest is mainly the method to try and deal with hydras, as you can lift a bunch and nuke the hydras pretty quickly... And I don't know what the upgrade bonuses will be like, but 35 damage a shot to ground is still pretty decent regardless.
Theres nothing wrong with the Carrier performing poorly against the corruptor though, corruptors are supposed to hunt capital ships. Its like buffing the roach to penetrate hardened shields because immortals rape them. I just think that carriers will out perform the Tempest in actual play rather than on paper.
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On October 24 2011 11:57 kKagari wrote: Theres nothing wrong with the Carrier performing poorly against the corruptor though, corruptors are supposed to hunt capital ships. Its like buffing the roach to penetrate hardened shields because immortals rape them. I just think that carriers will out perform the Tempest in actual play rather than on paper.
Oh I agree and I'm not trying to suggest that the Tempest will be "amazing" against Corrupters. Even though the gas cost for going Tempest is a little higher, you don't have to research Graviton Catapult, you don't have to wait for Interceptors to build and you also don't lose on DPS when interceptors get shot down either.
Carriers are great against Hydras in relatively small numbers... But when you get into big fight scenarios what can often happen is having a bunch of your interceptors shot down and your carriers are instead doing 0 damage... Something the Tempest will not suffer from.
Plus it seems like the Tempest moves at approximately the same speed as a Void Ray... Which allows it to be more mobile and possibly escape if the battle starts going poorly (but then again, now we will pretty much have permanent mass recall going on).
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