+ u can find plenty of stuff related to MLG winter arena here on TL.
There is enough advertisement here on liquid for free atm.
TL doing there best to support MLG as best as they can in my opinion. 100% MLG 'Fault' with this drama.
Credits to TL!
Forum Index > SC2 General |
Gumbotwins
Netherlands256 Posts
+ u can find plenty of stuff related to MLG winter arena here on TL. There is enough advertisement here on liquid for free atm. TL doing there best to support MLG as best as they can in my opinion. 100% MLG 'Fault' with this drama. Credits to TL! | ||
00Visor
4337 Posts
On February 23 2012 23:18 Gumbotwins wrote: I honestly think ROG will have more viewers then MLG, Maybe its time for another "foreign" tourny to get there deserved attention. ROG is free. They will easily have a multiple amount of viewers. Thats not a bold statement . | ||
pbkim
United States24 Posts
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
Also, TL is clearly trying to pander to its users while being diplomatic when it simultaneously says that "we had reservations with a PPV model with no free stream option" and "[t]his doesn't mean we disagree with MLG trying this PPV model out." TL is trying to have its cake and eat it too with that contradiction. TL's admins no doubt took note of the results of their poll on the home page and made this decision accordingly. | ||
werynais
Germany1780 Posts
That's ridiculous. Good decision from TL | ||
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On February 23 2012 23:32 pbkim wrote: + Show Spoiler + There has been a lot of controversy in regard to the new PPV model that MLG, for the first time, attemtped to apply into a 2-day internet streaming only tournament. I think that this will be a very high quality in terms of its content, as MLG is flying out the top class players around the world and casters, especially when MLG had run some awesome events in the last season. However, it is a bad business attempt in my opinion for the following reasons: 1. Price 20$. Okay. People pay more than 100$ a year to watch NBA on its internet stream. People pay about the same price as Winter Arena for GSL/month. Then why is MLG Winter Arena over-priced? This tournament is just freaking 2-day tournament and its not even the main event like NBA Playoffs, for example. It is basically like a qualifier with high prize pool for its next actual event; MLG Winter Championship Ohio. Also, MLG Winter Arena is not a open live-event where they have spectators and journalists, who make the event more exciting and more respectable. While I fully understand that small MLG office can't accomodate people else than the players, and that they have to develop some sort of profitable business models to keep their investors interested, but eSports simply isn't big enough to charge 20$ for such small amount of contents, but not the actual quality. 2. Publicity MLG scheduled the event on the same date as the Winter Assembly in Paris. Although it might be that MLG already had this in plan, the date for the Winter Assembly had been announced long time ago even the MLG season 2011 has ended. If MLG wants makes the new PPV model to work as a valid business model, the tournament has to be the time when people have no other option but MLG Winter Arena. I'm sure MLG had a chance to reschedule things especially since the tournament is happening in their own office anyway. I'm a eSports fanatic, and may be a MLG ass-kisser like someone have described people like me as. I'm planning on watching both of the tournaments eventhough it would cost me the unreasonable amount because I'm a no-life, and need-to-get-laid pethetic as described by other fellow TL member for people watching multiple video game streams at a time over the weekends. However, I'm not happy how MLG approached to us, the fans, as to announce the stream will cost 20$ to watch just two-weeks before the events. I mean, as many other eSports fans here, I have my own stuffs to do and some friends to hang-out with, and I put off my other plans to watch "Supposed-to-be Free" MLG stream. All the sudden MLG says okay now we have to charge you 20$. I'm still going to watch it, duh, but I can't be too happy with they've made me pay now when its just 2 weeks before the event. Conclusion: Please, don't say stuffs like, "if you support eSports, put your money into this" when you're making a highly unfavorable business model for customers. I understand there are many reasons behind in the course of launching this tournament, but come on. You could have at least give us the explanations for these seemingly unreasonable way of running a tournament. That's what SNS is for. While it is inevitable to make profitable business model to get investors's interests, failing to do so will investors rather withdraw their money from the industry. I hope to MLG undestands this and improves on their business model in next tournaments to come You do realize this post has nothing to do with the OP, right? There are other threads for this discussion. | ||
ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On February 23 2012 23:35 Doodsmack wrote: Strongly disagree with this decision. If TL wants its calendar to be an "information source" to TL users, it makes no sense to not include information about a major SC2 event that's going on. In fact TL is doing its users a disservice by not providing as much notification of the event as possible. The idea that the lack of an embedded free stream means that a calendar link would lack utility for TL users is trivial in my eyes. Simply putting a link to MLG's site would be very simple...it's not direct advertising and again, the purpose of a calendar is to notify people of what events are going on. Also, TL is clearly trying to pander to its users while being diplomatic when it simultaneously says that "we had reservations with a PPV model with no free stream option" and "[t]his doesn't mean we disagree with MLG trying this PPV model out." TL is trying to have its cake and eat it too with that contradiction. TL's admins no doubt took note of the results of their poll on the home page and made this decision accordingly. It's exactly direct advertising since other than letting people know that there is an event MLG going on the users gain nothing. And the purpose of the calendar is to see what events are happening at any moment, events that have a free stream so that everybody on TL can watch. TL calendar is for everyone not for the ones that can actually buy passes. And MLG Adams and Sundances declarations that they have already reaches their expectations have a big smell of bullshit. "Let's make it sound successful so people can still come and we don't have to sell our homes" | ||
Gumbotwins
Netherlands256 Posts
On February 23 2012 23:35 Doodsmack wrote: Strongly disagree with this decision. If TL wants its calendar to be an "information source" to TL users, it makes no sense to not include information about a major SC2 event that's going on. In fact TL is doing its users a disservice by not providing as much notification of the event as possible. The idea that the lack of an embedded free stream means that a calendar link would lack utility for TL users is trivial in my eyes. Simply putting a link to MLG's site would be very simple...it's not direct advertising and again, the purpose of a calendar is to notify people of what events are going on. Also, TL is clearly trying to pander to its users while being diplomatic when it simultaneously says that "we had reservations with a PPV model with no free stream option" and "[t]his doesn't mean we disagree with MLG trying this PPV model out." TL is trying to have its cake and eat it too with that contradiction. TL's admins no doubt took note of the results of their poll on the home page and made this decision accordingly. TL has a link describiding the actual time/date @ TeamliquidPro. U can even click the link and get into the calender and see the actual event + information. Though they dont have a link to there stream, which is more they ok to do since they didn't pay. | ||
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On February 23 2012 23:38 ceaRshaf wrote: Show nested quote + On February 23 2012 23:35 Doodsmack wrote: Strongly disagree with this decision. If TL wants its calendar to be an "information source" to TL users, it makes no sense to not include information about a major SC2 event that's going on. In fact TL is doing its users a disservice by not providing as much notification of the event as possible. The idea that the lack of an embedded free stream means that a calendar link would lack utility for TL users is trivial in my eyes. Simply putting a link to MLG's site would be very simple...it's not direct advertising and again, the purpose of a calendar is to notify people of what events are going on. Also, TL is clearly trying to pander to its users while being diplomatic when it simultaneously says that "we had reservations with a PPV model with no free stream option" and "[t]his doesn't mean we disagree with MLG trying this PPV model out." TL is trying to have its cake and eat it too with that contradiction. TL's admins no doubt took note of the results of their poll on the home page and made this decision accordingly. It's exactly direct advertising since other than letting people know that there is an event MLG going on the users gain nothing. And the purpose of the calendar is to see what events are happening at any moment, events that have a free stream so that everybody on TL can watch. TL calendar is for everyone not for the ones that can actually buy passes. And MLG Adams and Sundances declarations that they have already reaches their expectations have a big smell of bullshit. "Let's make it sound successful so people can still come and we don't have to sell our homes" The purpose of calendars is to provide information about what's going on. TL users gain information by knowing that the Arena is going on. That's not direct advertising, it's just putting information on a calendar. | ||
Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On February 23 2012 23:38 ceaRshaf wrote: And MLG Adams and Sundances declarations that they have already reaches their expectations have a big smell of bullshit. "Let's make it sound successful so people can still come and we don't have to sell our homes" As mentioned earlier, it is advertisement. He would most likely post something similar no matter how the sales went. Maybe he would use actual numbers if they had actually sold a lot though? Who knows... | ||
ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On February 23 2012 23:43 Doodsmack wrote: Show nested quote + On February 23 2012 23:38 ceaRshaf wrote: On February 23 2012 23:35 Doodsmack wrote: Strongly disagree with this decision. If TL wants its calendar to be an "information source" to TL users, it makes no sense to not include information about a major SC2 event that's going on. In fact TL is doing its users a disservice by not providing as much notification of the event as possible. The idea that the lack of an embedded free stream means that a calendar link would lack utility for TL users is trivial in my eyes. Simply putting a link to MLG's site would be very simple...it's not direct advertising and again, the purpose of a calendar is to notify people of what events are going on. Also, TL is clearly trying to pander to its users while being diplomatic when it simultaneously says that "we had reservations with a PPV model with no free stream option" and "[t]his doesn't mean we disagree with MLG trying this PPV model out." TL is trying to have its cake and eat it too with that contradiction. TL's admins no doubt took note of the results of their poll on the home page and made this decision accordingly. It's exactly direct advertising since other than letting people know that there is an event MLG going on the users gain nothing. And the purpose of the calendar is to see what events are happening at any moment, events that have a free stream so that everybody on TL can watch. TL calendar is for everyone not for the ones that can actually buy passes. And MLG Adams and Sundances declarations that they have already reaches their expectations have a big smell of bullshit. "Let's make it sound successful so people can still come and we don't have to sell our homes" The purpose of calendars is to provide information about what's going on. TL users gain information by knowing that the Arena is going on. That's not direct advertising, it's just putting information on a calendar. That's the news sections and Tournament forum. The calendar tells you what events happen, that are accessible for everyone. That's how it's at the moment. | ||
Iyerbeth
England2410 Posts
On February 23 2012 19:25 syllogism wrote: Show nested quote + On February 23 2012 19:17 Plexa wrote: On February 23 2012 19:11 mr_tolkien wrote: On February 23 2012 18:08 archonOOid wrote: why are tl taking a political stance? i can't really comprehend the reasoning behind the decision. ppv streams are a part of the future streaming landscape but tl thinks otherwise. however tl isn't equal to all of the sc2 community and mlg.tv is a well known website. TL is a website ruled by Nazgul and he does what he wants. And he's pretty right on that one, this MLG even sounds like an utter failure. TL is a website run by the admin and reds. This was not a decision taken lightly; the reds had a very long discussion about it. On February 23 2012 19:11 syllogism wrote: On February 23 2012 19:05 ceaRshaf wrote: On February 23 2012 18:49 syllogism wrote: On February 23 2012 18:24 ceaRshaf wrote: On February 23 2012 18:23 rasnj wrote: I strongly disagree with this. This is a community site and from a community point of view it seems clear that there are practically no cons (slight clutter of calendar, nothing compared to daily showmatches, EU rebroadcasts and daily tournaments) even for non-viewers, but plenty of pros for viewers. Obviously TL can do whatever they want and do not need to succumb to popular opinion, but I really feel they are doing themselves and the community a disservice by refusing to act as an ultimate portal of MLG activity like it is with all other tournaments. You don't get it. Teamliquid puts your name on that list and you get people and they get free stream. For MLG, they put you on that list, you get people and they get..... Teamliquid doesn't have to "get" anything. The only issue here is, besides TL potentially taking a political stance, whether the calendar better serves users by not including a very major event. If the answer is yes, then the decision is correct. If TL thinks the main purpose of the calendar is to inform the community when events are being streamed for free, then again that is correct. However, if the calendar aims to be informative and TL is more about starcraft news in general than just free streams, the decision is wrong. I believe any reasonable person would conclude the latter is more reasonable. First of all "they" was referring to the people/members not TL organization. Second, hearing about a product is what advertising means. TL is not obligated to share your product to the rest of the community since the majority of the community may not benefit from hearing the news. So they can't do MLG a free service that is not a direct benefit to the community (indirectly it is, if you pay for MLG). And if you include "any reasonable person would think like me" is not helping you argument. You are just trying to force an argument win. An event being on calendar offers a direct benefit: information. Moreover, knowing that an event is taking place does not harm anyone and it doesn't make the calendar any less useful overall. The fact informing TL users also provides some free advertising is not harming anyone and informing is better than not informing. As Hot_bid explained, we realise that the calendar is a very useful source of information for our users. But not only is it informative, but it also is a very effective form of advertising - particularly when on air or leading up to the event. Having a constant display reminding everyone about an event is a very useful tool for tournament organisers to gain more viewers. In this situation, and after a lot of discussion, we decided that it is more of an advertising tool than it is an informative tool. And as such, we have made the decision you read in the OP. While I actually read the OP, I actually admit that I came into it expecting it to be about the utility vs information, but I now see that it is more about the fact that TL needs to sustain itself and therefore does not want to provide free advertising. This is a reasonable position and I withdraw my complaints. It is, however, perplexing how many people are thanking TL for the decision. I know that many people are thanking them because they see it as a blow to the PPV model they don't like. I personally thanked them for taking the time to come up with a policy that directly means it's more likely that as time goes on TL will stay as a great resource site for Starcraft without becoming overburdened with advertisements, especially while not benefitting from them. It was a well thought out policy which was well communicated to us and thus, thanks were in order. | ||
smr
Germany4808 Posts
I hope that we're gonna have a small symbol similar to the race icons to identify ppv-only events IF some organizer is going to pay for the calendar spot. | ||
Magnious
United States68 Posts
On February 23 2012 23:23 nooboon wrote: Show nested quote + On February 23 2012 23:04 Magnious wrote: On February 23 2012 22:59 nooboon wrote: On February 23 2012 22:51 sansalvador wrote: On February 23 2012 22:48 Magnious wrote: Technically, aren't they already helping TeamLiquid by sending the TL players to NYC on their own dime? They are sending Haypro, Sheth, and Ret. They are helping TL by paying for their players. I think it would be nice to see TL give back to MLG by at least listing the event on their calendar. I guess TL doesn't only want to see them pay for their players, but also want extra $$$ for a link on their site. I get your rules..but I think this event should be an exception. That does not make any sense at all. You completely different things in relation which just are not. liquid (the team) and teamliquid.net (the site) are different things. Sure the site holds some bias for the team they share their name with, but the site has come a long way from the BW days (when liquid was a clan). This thread was more about the advertisement policy and to prevent organizations from using teamliquid.net and its users to benefit themselves, as well as add some guidelines for future events. It could also mean a subtle disapproval of MLG's PPV system as they will not show the stream. MLG paying for the players to fly to NYC is a different matter entirely. TLPro.net is fairly new. Teamliquid.net and the Pro version are still part of TeamLiquid and they share the same revenue. It's like saying EPSN and espn.go.com/nba are two different entities. They are not, they are the same entity with different content. The players are STILL a part of TL.net..so no...it is not a different matter. It is. TL was willing to put put the stream link and put the event in the calender but MLG did not want to be charged for it. So TL decided not to put up the stream listing. This is an issue of advertisement of free events vs PPV events. Tournament organizers decision to pay for their competitors flight and accommodations should have no effect on what gets advertised. Sure it would be nice if TL listed MLG's winter arena but TL are not bound to do so. I agree with everything that you stated here. Especially the last sentence. I just wish that they decided to do things differently, and helping this experiment go further to see if it can actually be a profitable venture for MLG, instead of sparking up more drama and debate. | ||
Xalorian
Canada433 Posts
On February 23 2012 23:35 Doodsmack wrote: Strongly disagree with this decision. If TL wants its calendar to be an "information source" to TL users, it makes no sense to not include information about a major SC2 event that's going on. In fact TL is doing its users a disservice by not providing as much notification of the event as possible. The idea that the lack of an embedded free stream means that a calendar link would lack utility for TL users is trivial in my eyes. Simply putting a link to MLG's site would be very simple...it's not direct advertising and again, the purpose of a calendar is to notify people of what events are going on. In fact, before reading this post I naturally assumed that every single SC2 event goes onto TL's calendar. Also, TL is clearly trying to pander to its users while being diplomatic when it simultaneously says that "we had reservations with a PPV model with no free stream option" and "[t]his doesn't mean we disagree with MLG trying this PPV model out." TL is trying to have its cake and eat it too with that contradiction. TL's admins no doubt took note of the results of their poll on the home page and made this decision accordingly. You don't understand or you just don't read properly? TL can't just give away free advertisement to event that force their viewers to pay, it's ridiculous. If MLG want to be advertised by TL, then they need to pay for it. It's just logical. TL is not a charity business. You talk about TL wanting to "have it's cake and eat it too", what about MLG that don't want to charge for ads then, when they charge their viewers? When you add a free event to a calendar, you are giving information to your users. If you add a PPV only event to your calendar, you are giving ads to the event. Basicaly, MLG wants free ads from TL. TL is a business too, you know. | ||
Deadstrider
Netherlands258 Posts
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Belgium4158 Posts
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United States178 Posts
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Ireland4123 Posts
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United States198 Posts
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