|
On July 16 2012 17:16 pOnarreT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:00 IntoTheheart wrote:On July 16 2012 16:59 Zrana wrote:On July 16 2012 16:55 IntoTheheart wrote:On July 16 2012 16:54 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 16 2012 16:50 Megaliskuu wrote: Don't see how this is a big deal at all, let the morons get their account leveled, most pros arent paid very well..they need to make money somehow right? If they can't make enough money doing legitimate stuff like streaming/winning/salary/coaching, then maybe they should consider a different career. It ruins the integrity of the ladder. Any pro that would do this would lose my support. I think that we'll need a confirmation from a pro in NA/EU/KOR/etc to see whether or not it's possible to sustain oneself reasonably without having some extra money injections. Some pros (like Nestea) are good enough to win tournaments on their own, and have a salary. I don't know what it's like for other pros though. Well that draws an interesting question; if a player can't win enough to sustain themselves are they actually a pro? Where do you draw the line between a pro player and someone who just plays a lot of starcraft? To me a pro is someone sponsored by a team or sponsor. But I don't know how much money is in a sponsorship. That's why I wanted a pro to respond to whether or not it's possible to sustain themselves as a gamer easily (without getting an additional day job to keep food on the table, or having to stream about 12 hours a day to get the ad revenue money up). If it's enough that one can easily survive and live decently, I'll agree that it's not the right decision to make. What about grubby? I think he is not sponsored by anyone
Grubby isn't a great example I feel, because he is a WC3 legend. He is mildly successful at SC2, but he's already created a legacy for himself, and whenever he goes to nations like China, he is treated like a celebrity. It's kind of like Boxer. Boxer's achievements in SC2 by themselves are not that impressive, and can be seen as just another Korean Terran. But Boxer has that "legend" status, and he doesn't worry about money.
|
On July 16 2012 17:42 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:38 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: The fact that anyone gives a shit about this astounds me. You just play the game if that guy got an account leveled to GM he is obviously not a GM player and will be kicked out eventually that is how the ladder system works. If he chooses not to play he will be dropped from GM for having a high Bonus pool it's not a big deal it doesn't matter this thread is kind of pointless. The apathy towards it astounds me. People saying ladder doesn't matter anyway, well it certainly won't if we let stuff like this slide.
Ladder matter for people that play the game, and if you are "Robbed" of playing against a Weak person posing as GM than I am truly sorry.
The fact is Pros should be able to support themselves by their ability to play the game. How many other people "account share" and this isn't being brought up about them.
Pros use to advertise for this when the game first came out but since it breaks the EULA that was shut down. I am just shocked that someone would care and go through the effort to expose something so unimportant.
|
On July 16 2012 17:03 KawaiiRice wrote: the problems are that ppl are clogging up gm slots and also ppl that got their accs leveled can use gm as credential to sell coaching to those that don't know any better. its a big issue if you think about that ...
that's actually so true
|
for me it is funny, because this is also (amongst others) a side-effect of the elitist behaviour on TL when you are bronze-platinum, basically the only thing you are allowed to post on the strategy forum is a thread "help me i don't know why i'm losing" with added replays, and you will always hear that your macro sucks whenever you want to join in on a discussion you get shut down cold because only masters++ are said to have enough game knowledge to be accepted in any way. Thus making it all the way more appealing to get your account leveled to high masters/GM, so you can start your post with "GM on NA server here". And suddenly people will take your statement seriously
(of course this is not always the case, but most of the time i feel like this)
|
On July 16 2012 17:47 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:42 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On July 16 2012 17:38 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: The fact that anyone gives a shit about this astounds me. You just play the game if that guy got an account leveled to GM he is obviously not a GM player and will be kicked out eventually that is how the ladder system works. If he chooses not to play he will be dropped from GM for having a high Bonus pool it's not a big deal it doesn't matter this thread is kind of pointless. The apathy towards it astounds me. People saying ladder doesn't matter anyway, well it certainly won't if we let stuff like this slide. Ladder matter for people that play the game, and if you are "Robbed" of playing against a Weak person posing as GM than I am truly sorry. The fact is Pros should be able to support themselves by their ability to play the game. How many other people "account share" and this isn't being brought up about them. Pros use to advertise for this when the game first came out but since it breaks the EULA that was shut down. I am just shocked that someone would care and go through the effort to expose something so unimportant.
Well I have no idea if I've ever played against someone being levelled. If so, I wouldn't care about that singular match. What I do care about is my rank. I want my rank to mean something, even if I am just a lowly Diamond.
I play Starcraft to have fun and to improve. My rank is a reflection of my improvement. If the ladder is compromised in this way, my rank is meaningless. Now I lose motivation to play.
I like people to earn their way, both in life, and in Starcraft. Paying your way into advantageous positions in any aspect of life is frankly disgusting to me.
|
I don't see the point for the buyers, this happens in other games aswell, however then there is usually something to show for it (WoW Gladiator title). I doubt the buyers would be able to keep up with the league they are boosted to, I guess they have their reasons though.
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
On July 16 2012 17:52 Cirqueenflex wrote: for me it is funny, because this is also (amongst others) a side-effect of the elitist behaviour on TL when you are bronze-platinum, basically the only thing you are allowed to post on the strategy forum is a thread "help me i don't know why i'm losing" with added replays, and you will always hear that your macro sucks whenever you want to join in on a discussion you get shut down cold because only masters++ are said to have enough game knowledge to be accepted in any way. Thus making it all the way more appealing to get your account leveled to high masters/GM, so you can start your post with "GM on NA server here". And suddenly people will take your statement seriously
(of course this is not always the case, but most of the time i feel like this)
When you see polls on TL about ladder rank, it almost seems like 75% of the world's Masters and GM players post here regularly. Almost everyone that posts on the Strategy forum also claim to be Diamond or up.
Obviously I find that a liiiiiiiiitle suspicious. :p
|
On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:Who cares?Now you might say, what's the big deal? After all, account leveling is not actually hurting anyone other than the person buying the leveling, because he won't really be able to play 1v1 again or else he'd get stomped. However I do think this is a "big deal", for the following reasons: - It's against the EULA. - It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM. - The people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites. These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling. I believe the IMMvp account owner hacks in team games and plays with other hackers. Replay evidence here: + Show Spoiler +http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260581/ - His team is ready and waiting for the attack that comes at 9:30. - karaNICOLE looks through the fog of war at my drop at 16:50, and then Mvp is ready and waiting at his expansion and even moves SCVs away pre-emptively. - One of his teammates here, FFSentries, has an account on a prominent hacking site where he asks for SC2 loss bots (revealed by Google search). http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260996/ (very damning evidence here for IMMvp) - Suspicious fog of war peaking by "skrillex", which the website can see is his the account's former name, @ ~2:30-3:30, 8:00-8:15 (VERY suspect, including looking @ hidden expo), 10:30-10:35, 15:13, - The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it. NMxBlazinT, for example, is notorious for having his account leveled each season, and he has an account on a prominent hacking site where he has advertised coaching. - It's possible that the people acting as intermediaries between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further.
- Who cares about the EULA?
- Nothing stops GM players from maintaining multiple accounts in GM, whether it's a smurf account, a shared account, or an account they've been paid to level. What GM signifies to a semi-pro other than recognition is fairly irrelevant when the only tournament GM gets you into are blizzard tournaments. There are tons of problems with GM that supersede the very, very few accounts that people pay hundreds of dollars to get leveled. And I doubt it's what holds back semi-pros from stardom.
- Where do you suggest they advertise their services where they won't be banned/censored? And why do you assume ALL people who pay for/sell account leveling services are hackers? Those sites aren't the only avenue of business, just the most well advertised.
- Go ahead and name the people doing it.
If Naama IS actually leveling accounts for money, who the fuck cares? He wouldn't be the first, he won't be the last. What hes doing is between him, the account owner, and Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to ban him for it, so be it. Don't start another fucking witch hunt. Especially over something as stupid, trivial, and irrelevant as this.
|
The reason you'd buy GM is so that you can tell people how good you used to be
|
Nuked
User was warned for this post
Not sure if I'm allowed to nuke the warning as well, anyone?
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22271 Posts
I would also like to add that I find it curious that there are so many people who think this is fine (as long as some pros make money, for esports!). I bet if you changed the circumstances from Starcraft to some other real life scenario/sport/game/whatever, there'd be millions of keyboard warriors sermoning about morals and integrity and character and justice and lawfulness and.... you get my point.
Not that I think this is particularly bad (already gave my opinion a few pages ago), I just find it funny how everything is suddenly okay as long as it "supports esports".
|
On July 16 2012 17:41 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:51 alderamin wrote: You guys are denying it is manipulating the ladder unfairly and denying it is against Blizzard's rules?
How is it different from makhacking? Ladder abuse in the past in TSL ladder resulted in several people getting banned for a year or so for cheating just 1 game. This is about many many games. Well it's a lot different from maphacking in the sense that nobody is getting cheated out of a match unfairly. The pro's still have to play legit to beat all those players.
Everybody gets cheated a tiny bit.
It's spread out. I can steal a 100 euro bill from you and I gan 100 and you lose 100. Or I can print a new 100 euro bill. Then I gain 100 euro. Say there'e 100 million people using the euro then I stole 100/1 000 000 from everyone. It is still theft. And it is actually theft of the same magnitude.
What does it matter if I win a game I shouldn't win through maphacking or through letting someone else play for me who will automatically win because of his skill? What is the difference?
The GM and masters that do this know it's cheating and they know it's immoral and weak character of them to do it. They must be laughing their ass off seeing people try to defend them.
|
Many pros have smurf accounts in GM (especially KR) so I don't really care. You can't get to GM? You are simply not good enough, that's all. You want recognition? Win online cups.
|
Wasnt it general knowledge that Immvp is Naama's smurf? Didnt think it was a secret.
Oh well, I dont get what the deal here is anyway.
|
I remember ShowTime.WeRRa doing this 10 years ago in WC3 ROC. Not much drama going around if people seriously care about something trivial like this.
|
On July 16 2012 17:58 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:Who cares?Now you might say, what's the big deal? After all, account leveling is not actually hurting anyone other than the person buying the leveling, because he won't really be able to play 1v1 again or else he'd get stomped. However I do think this is a "big deal", for the following reasons: - It's against the EULA. - It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM. - The people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites. These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling. I believe the IMMvp account owner hacks in team games and plays with other hackers. Replay evidence here: + Show Spoiler +http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260581/ - His team is ready and waiting for the attack that comes at 9:30. - karaNICOLE looks through the fog of war at my drop at 16:50, and then Mvp is ready and waiting at his expansion and even moves SCVs away pre-emptively. - One of his teammates here, FFSentries, has an account on a prominent hacking site where he asks for SC2 loss bots (revealed by Google search). http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260996/ (very damning evidence here for IMMvp) - Suspicious fog of war peaking by "skrillex", which the website can see is his the account's former name, @ ~2:30-3:30, 8:00-8:15 (VERY suspect, including looking @ hidden expo), 10:30-10:35, 15:13, - The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it. NMxBlazinT, for example, is notorious for having his account leveled each season, and he has an account on a prominent hacking site where he has advertised coaching. - It's possible that the people acting as intermediaries between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further. - Who cares about the EULA? - Nothing stops GM players from maintaining multiple accounts in GM, whether it's a smurf account, a shared account, or an account they've been paid to level. What GM signifies to a semi-pro other than recognition is fairly irrelevant when the only tournament GM gets you into are blizzard tournaments. There are tons of problems with GM that supersede the very, very few accounts that people pay hundreds of dollars to get leveled. And I doubt it's what holds back semi-pros from stardom. - Where do you suggest they advertise their services where they won't be banned/censored? And why do you assume ALL people who pay for/sell account leveling services are hackers? Those sites aren't the only avenue of business, just the most well advertised. - Go ahead and name the people doing it.If Naama IS actually leveling accounts for money, who the fuck cares? He wouldn't be the first, he won't be the last. What hes doing is between him, the account owner, and Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to ban him for it, so be it. Don't start another fucking witch hunt. Especially over something as stupid, trivial, and irrelevant as this.
He did already name one and I personally have two guys on spec in the EU ladder. But I won't tell you the names until I know more about it. I don't want to start a witch hunt like in the maphacker thread.
Edit: Also quoting Kawaii on this because he is right
On July 16 2012 17:03 KawaiiRice wrote: the problems are that ppl are clogging up gm slots and also ppl that got their accs leveled can use gm as credential to sell coaching to those that don't know any better. its a big issue if you think about that ...
|
On July 16 2012 17:44 Aterons_toss wrote: Oky, let me put it to you this way: - The only reason why this happens is because some pros make very little money - The only reason why this hurt someone is because some people that wish to be pros will be discouraged
So isn't this... good ? If the low tier pros don't make enough money and have to do this kinda of stuff to make more than its obviously not a very good thing to aspire to, thus by doing this the guys are helping some kids that want to get into something they don't know enough about to realize it won't yelled them enough money AND are helping themselves. They are also taking away money from stupid people that want those accounts, which is a good thing in terms of "morale".
Considering the above, without saying any information in your post is false, I don't believe this is a problem but rather something good. What about the hundreds of high level masters that can compete with GM players? They would like a spot in GM. It's hard enough to get into GM league already, and if GM league starts getting filled with noob accounts that were levelled by players like Naama, I believe that's very unfair on the high-masters players who are trying to make a name for themselves.
Like it or not, being in GM definitely does have advantages to an aspiring player like that. For instance - if you stream, people are going to want to watch a "Grandmaster zerg" over a "High masters zerg", it's just natural. Teams/clans are more likely to take note of you. People will naturally want to be coached by someone in GM over someone in master's.
In short, there are most definitely benefits in getting into Grandmaster's as an unestablished/aspiring pro. It won't make you a better player - but it raises your profile, which IS a big deal.
This is essentially just ladder abuse. GSL banned choya for ladder abuse, and all he did was play rock-paper-scissors for points. It breaks the rules you agreed on with Blizzard when you bought the game. If GM has accounts in it that are actually silver level players (and they can stay there for the WHOLE season), it completely delegitimizes the ladder. It blows my mind that you think this is a good thing.
|
On July 16 2012 18:06 Yello wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 17:58 rd wrote:On July 16 2012 16:29 Doodsmack wrote:Who cares?Now you might say, what's the big deal? After all, account leveling is not actually hurting anyone other than the person buying the leveling, because he won't really be able to play 1v1 again or else he'd get stomped. However I do think this is a "big deal", for the following reasons: - It's against the EULA. - It IS hurting other people. The semi-pros in high master who are struggling to break into GM, because GM does in fact provide recognition to players. Ideally GM should be the top 200 ladder players, and not littered with leveled accounts. Aspiring semi-pros are being cheated out of potential opportunities by the people selling these leveling services. Moreover, these leveled accounts basically go inactive save for some occasional playing by the leveler to keep the account from falling out of GM. - The people most likely to buy leveling services are associated with hacking and botting communities. Indeed, many of the ads I mentioned are on hacking sites. These people are already willing to hack and buy new accounts to hack with, so it makes sense that they would pay for leveling. I believe the IMMvp account owner hacks in team games and plays with other hackers. Replay evidence here: + Show Spoiler +http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260581/ - His team is ready and waiting for the attack that comes at 9:30. - karaNICOLE looks through the fog of war at my drop at 16:50, and then Mvp is ready and waiting at his expansion and even moves SCVs away pre-emptively. - One of his teammates here, FFSentries, has an account on a prominent hacking site where he asks for SC2 loss bots (revealed by Google search). http://www.sctemple.com/replay/260996/ (very damning evidence here for IMMvp) - Suspicious fog of war peaking by "skrillex", which the website can see is his the account's former name, @ ~2:30-3:30, 8:00-8:15 (VERY suspect, including looking @ hidden expo), 10:30-10:35, 15:13, - The people buying these services may even advertise coaching once they get into GM and make money off it. NMxBlazinT, for example, is notorious for having his account leveled each season, and he has an account on a prominent hacking site where he has advertised coaching. - It's possible that the people acting as intermediaries between the pros performing leveling and the people buying the leveling keep a portion of the proceeds, similar to something like Gosucoaching. If this is the case, the proceeds are likely contributing towards the hacking communities and sustaining them further. - Who cares about the EULA? - Nothing stops GM players from maintaining multiple accounts in GM, whether it's a smurf account, a shared account, or an account they've been paid to level. What GM signifies to a semi-pro other than recognition is fairly irrelevant when the only tournament GM gets you into are blizzard tournaments. There are tons of problems with GM that supersede the very, very few accounts that people pay hundreds of dollars to get leveled. And I doubt it's what holds back semi-pros from stardom. - Where do you suggest they advertise their services where they won't be banned/censored? And why do you assume ALL people who pay for/sell account leveling services are hackers? Those sites aren't the only avenue of business, just the most well advertised. - Go ahead and name the people doing it.If Naama IS actually leveling accounts for money, who the fuck cares? He wouldn't be the first, he won't be the last. What hes doing is between him, the account owner, and Blizzard. If Blizzard wants to ban him for it, so be it. Don't start another fucking witch hunt. Especially over something as stupid, trivial, and irrelevant as this. He did already name one and I personally have two guys on spec in the EU ladder. But I won't tell you the names until I know more about it. I don't want to start a witch hunt like in the maphacker thread.
Was referring to people who bought leveling services and then turned around and tried to use it as credentials to sell coaching. I could name several pros too who level/have levelled accounts. I'm indifferent, but if other people are gonna go apeshit then I'll just withhold them.
|
On July 16 2012 18:02 lichter wrote: I would also like to add that I find it curious that there are so many people who think this is fine (as long as some pros make money, for esports!). I bet if you changed the circumstances from Starcraft to some other real life scenario/sport/game/whatever, there'd be millions of keyboard warriors sermoning about morals and integrity and character and justice and lawfulness and.... you get my point.
Not that I think this is particularly bad (already gave my opinion a few pages ago), I just find it funny how everything is suddenly okay as long as it "supports esports". I dont give a shit about it "supports esports".
I just dont think its a big deal. When a GM player starts to play a low MMR account, the MMR climbs incredibly fast. I think after like 10-20 games he plays the same players as with his main account. Why should the GM players care if they play against the Immvp or the Naama account? The skill of the player they meet is the same.
|
On July 16 2012 18:06 xsksc wrote: What about the hundreds of high level masters that can compete with GM players? They would like a spot in GM. It's hard enough to get into GM league already, and if GM league starts getting filled with noob accounts that were levelled by players like Naama, I believe that's very unfair on the high-masters players who are trying to make a name for themselves.
Like it or not, being in GM definitely does have advantages to an aspiring player like that. For instance - if you stream, people are going to want to watch a "Grandmaster zerg" over a "High masters zerg", it's just natural. Teams/clans are more likely to take note of you. People will naturally want to be coached by someone in GM over someone in master's.
In short, there are most definitely benefits in getting into Grandmaster's as an unestablished/aspiring pro. It won't make you a better player - but it raises your profile, which IS a big deal.
This is essentially just ladder abuse. GSL banned choya for ladder abuse, and all he did was play rock-paper-scissors for points. It breaks the rules you agreed on with Blizzard when you bought the game. If GM has accounts in it that are actually silver level players (and they can stay there for the WHOLE season), it completely delegitimizes the ladder. It blows my mind that you think this is a good thing. It blows my mind that you think that anyone on a pro level care about ladder. If you stream, people are going to watch someone with a personality, not ladder points. Winning GO4SC2/Zotac > being GM.
|
|
|
|