First of all, let me preface that this isn't a bash of the persons involved in the examples. It's something prevalent in SC2 content and I could have easily chosen many others that fall into the same kind of trap. I am grateful that we have all the content producers in the scene. But I feel some things need to improve to move content quality forward.
In order to get hyped up for the WCS Season 1 Finals, I thought "hey, Blizzard has a team in San Francisco now, might check out what they are doing". After having somewhat problems even finding that channel, this is what I found.
Transcript: "JangBi coming in first in the group, playing extremely well. Really showing some fantastic play. Game 1... I believe this was, versus Swagger (?). Craaaazy impressive set, normally, you know, we are not the greatest fans of PvP, but wow, this... errr some incredible matches in last night's up and downs. And then, YugiOh, actually, making it out as well, going 3:1, really solid play out of him and I can't just believe that Gumiho went out 0:3. That absolutely blew me away."
It's the transcript of the first part of the show and is characteristic for the rest of it and also the sequel of the video. Look at the following problems:
Problem 1: Telling me about stats and results instead of telling me about the games Problem 2: Buzzwords, meaningless compliments and cliches about players Problem 3: Confuse giving information with creating hype, resulting in having none of both
Problem 1
It could have been easily written by someone that didn't watch the games at all. Check the live report thread for a minute, then think of something, write it down and then present it. I am not saying that this is the case, I am saying that it appears like this outputwise. If I cared about the result, I wouldn't be watching the video, I would have looked the results up on Liquipedia, the live report thread, on Reddit, on the WCS page, on my local esports website, ... What I want to know when I watch a video about it is a summary of what happened in the games.
And talking about race winrates of a player still doesn't mean you are talking about the game. Stats are nice accompanying information to games, but not more. You are still talking about stats. You know who is the best about giving meaningful information purely with statistical information without knowing one bit about the game? Monsieur Aligulac.
It is not only boring for the viewers, it is also damaging for the players. To a lot of people, "faceless Koreans" are just some numbers, their race winrates, because nobody bothers to talk about their play. The SC2 talk is superficial most of the time compared to the talk in other games while it is (in my opinion) a more complex game. Unfortunately, so complex that many just opt to drop the intracacies of strategies completely. Don't forget that the best way to have people watch the next tournament, the tournament after that etc. is to have them hooked on the game and players, not numbers.
Problem 2
What have we learned about JangBi? He is good, he plays well - nay, his place is fantastic. The set he plays in is impressive and he is the reason why I overcame my dislike for PvPs. His matches were incredible!
Yes, it does happen in normal sports coverage that the commentator says: "Robben plays well today...". But he doesn't say it again and again with the same breath. And more importantly: He says why he thinks he plays well today. "...he is very visible, running up and down the pitch. He helps in the defense which isn't very typical of him"-
Saying it like in the video makes you really wonder if JangBi played well after all. Did he play that well or are you just hyping the game because Blizzard pays you for it? A sports commentator doing the same in normal sports would make a parody out of his job.
I think the origin of Problem 2 is that casters, commentators and presenters are very afraid to say something substantial with the risk of being bashed because of it. Instead they fallback to meaningless compliments. I show how well I know the players by complimenting those that are hyped up right now. And conversely, we dislike PvP normally because this is the mainstream consensus.
Then, there are buzzwords. The video says YugiOh is showing solid play. Somewhere else in the video you will find that Soulkey plays aggressively. Buzzwords always somehow hit the mark. They sound like the speaker knows his stuff. But on closer inspection, they leave you unsatisfied. Someone that knows SC2 will want to know: What exactly did YugiOh do to classify him as solid in the series? And it will take some time to realize that aggressive is the codeword for roach baneling all-ins. Someone that doesn't know SC2 too well will think "What does solid play mean? And why is that good? It sounds boring and uneventful" whereas aggressive signalizes high-paced and action packed play. Again, explain what is happening instead of hiding behind words.
In the same category fall cliches about players. Best example, how often have you heard TLO being labeled as creative or Ret being labeled as greedy? Sometimes casters hold on so much to their preconceived opinions that they completely ignore what is happening on the map. For example in the WCS EU Challenger match between KrasS and Harstem, Harstem was seen as the overwhelming favorite against KrasS despite losing to KrasS only very recently on two separate occasions. Later the caster admitted he didn't know much about the EU scene at all and just assumed Harstem was the favorite because he just won a tournament and was on top of Reddit.
Problem 3 Watch this video:
Which video hypes you up more? Which one should you show a friend to convince him to watch the event? The video produced by the former IPL staff or this fanmade video. For me, it is the low-end fanmade and somewhat cheesy trailer and the conservative formula: Players' faces, ingame clips and dramatic music. "But you said you wanted more information about game" - Yes, I want both. But more importantly, mixing these things up isn't fun. Either the information is hyping things up by itself - or it doesn't. The weather forecast isn't going to get more interesting by speaking it with a dramatic voice.
In fact, most sports coverage you get on TV is hype. You rarely find the tactics table taken out. There needs to be separate hype videos for WCS. Hype leads to more live viewers, more than "high level of play" (how do you even know you get high level of play until the games are over?).
Yes, talking about the games alone creates hype - but don't expect it to do it as well as a hype video. And don't mix these things up. Who exactly is attracted by results spoken out in a dramatic voice? Tell me why I should watch the next games, not why I should have watched the past ones! If you make a recap, give me a summary of the games rather than trying to sell them to me.
Solving the problems
An example how good a informational show around the games can be, I would like to give NASL's The Pulse as an example. They talk about the games themselves, the players and the teams, not only report stats and results. The recaps (often) summarize the games well and yet are still brief. And the recaps are actually only a small part of the content! After the show, you feel you got more value than skimming over Liquipedia.
How to get more expertise into esports talk? In sports in TV, there are pundits. We have such a diverse and big pool of players that this shouldn't be a problem. Why do casters and commentators make predictions who make it out of the group. Ask players who they think will advance and put it on screen. What do they think about the games, who do they cheer for etc, etc.
Hype videos: It should be a priority for tournament organizers to make them. I regularly find hype videos for Dreamhack on Reddit. There is even a hype video for the Homestory Cup (one guy in an apartment and capable helpers) on top of Reddit on the weekend of the WCS Season 1 Finals (Blizzard)! And yes, Blizzard, you are a tournament organizer now as well!
Of course, one could always say, it doesn't fit the show's format. And I wouldn't blame for example LiveOnThree for how they do things. But those that focus on SC2, why should your show exist in the first place if you get more information in five minutes on Liquipedia?
You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.
I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.
I know some Korean commentators face some pros on the KR ladder. Don't you think the Korean commentators are going to be able to give insightful information when they are playing the pros. Yes.
The english casters need to get better at SC2. I am tired of stats and random hype words. I want to know build order counters, scouting information, ordinary builds vs cheesey builds. I have seen some english commentators cast a game where a Terran goes 11 rax 11 gas vs a zerg and he explains that the Terran will do a reaper expand. Yeah.. But he is going to be putting a lot of aggression on with faster reapers..
I actually would enjoy some personalized stats regarding specific players. Too many times do casters just speak of the "race win rate," I would much rather hear about how player X does on map Y or in tournament Z.
Casting has been much improved since the beta, but I still think it would be cool to have stats either before/after (in game there is plenty to look at). I just feel like it would be interesting to note that player X has a 61% WR on map Y even though his race averages 46% in major tournaments (for example).
I thoroughly agree with the rest though. Recaps are DEFINITELY needed, I'm tired of hearing about "nerd chills because their play was AMAZING" 40x per tournament...
On June 08 2013 02:32 Reflexz wrote: You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.
I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.
I think a bigger problem is that a lot of them aren't trained as casters per-say. It's probably pretty easy to fall into the habit of saying "good" to refer to a lot of different kinds of play even if you know other ways of describing them.
What have we learned about JangBi? He is good, he plays well - nay, his place is fantastic. The set he plays in is impressive and he is the reason why I overcame my dislike for PvPs. His matches were incredible!
This is so true, they just hype everything and don't even talk about the actual games or what players did.
Nice write up, I can't bring myself to watch any of the content surrounding the wcs finals, and I mostly agree with you and the reason their coverage feels so subpar.
Yea there are casters who are successful because of entertainment value alone, some are just really fun to listen to due to their voice/cadence/humour etc when in reality they can't contribute high level insight because they simply don't have the capacity to.
I agree with hype/buzzwords. It find it really displeasing when (for example) when the casters for WCS EU are calling mid-tier EU players among the best in the world. Sure, if you're referring to the entire sc2 player population, Socke is really fucking good. Among the best in the world? There are dozens of players much better than him (I'm not picking on Socke, can replace his name with just about anybody). I feel like "best in the world" gets thrown around too often, and should be reserved for the TRULY best in the world (where is mostly applicable to 5-10 players).
Same with players like Jaedong, they talk about him as if he's the same in sc2 as he was in bw. He has not been impressive at all in sc2, yet they say things like "If they lose this match they have to then face off against JAEDONG, THE TYRANT HIMSELF, NOBODY WANTS TO PLAY VS HIM, HE'LL RIP YOUR ARMS OFF, CHEW THEM AND SPIT THEM RIGHT BACK OUT". It's very unnecessary and inaccurate.
On June 08 2013 02:47 Zenbrez wrote: I agree with hype/buzzwords. It find it really displeasing when (for example) when the casters for WCS EU are calling mid-tier EU players among the best in the world. Sure, if you're referring to the entire sc2 player population, Socke is really fucking good. Among the best in the world? There are dozens of players much better than him (I'm not picking on Socke, can replace his name with just about anybody). I feel like "best in the world" gets thrown around too often, and should be reserved for the TRULY best in the world (where is mostly applicable to 5-10 players).
Same with players like Jaedong, they talk about him as if he's the same in sc2 as he was in bw. He has not been impressive at all in sc2, yet they say things like "If they lose this match they have to then face off against JAEDONG, THE TYRANT HIMSELF, NOBODY WANTS TO PLAY VS HIM, HE'LL RIP YOUR ARMS OFF, CHEW THEM AND SPIT THEM RIGHT BACK OUT". It's very unnecessary and inaccurate.
Idra is one of my favorite casters due to these problems in OP. It also why I enjoy Artosis and Tasteless.
And this goes back to bringing in E-Sports personalities who know nothing about the game. How many times have we seen "pretty" female hosts do interviews that are totally devoid of substance simply because they know nothing about SC2?
It is sad that the major organizations choose to hire from outside of the SC2 scene just for good looks or a nice voice.
On June 08 2013 02:32 Reflexz wrote: You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.
I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.
I think a bigger problem is that a lot of them aren't trained as casters per-say. It's probably pretty easy to fall into the habit of saying "good" to refer to a lot of different kinds of play even if you know other ways of describing them.
Most of the casters dont play enough and in their defense SC 2 isnt as mapped out as BW yet and you can't analyze play as much right now.
In BW you could critique a players sim city and building placement let alone his choice of tech and strategy. That right there gives alot to talk about. SC 2 on the other hand you usually see builds for the first time so you kind of are waiting to see what happens and casters fill that time with useless buzzwords.
But I agree with the OP instead of useless buzzwords and stats and wild opinions of the casters, if you have nothing to talk about strategy wise, then give a play by play and use voice inflection. They do it in hockey and the Tampa Bay Lightning play by play caster is emotional enough to get me hyped even if Im watching it live the voicing of what Im watching adds to the effect.
So rather than this: MVP is dominating so far he is moving his army in and attacking, he has won every TvP this tournament, oh here it goes!
I would like this: MVP is moving his army up to the middle of the map, taking the highground spot near the zel naga tower. This spot is a good place for his marine marauder medivac army to defend against Rains zealots. At this stage in the game kiting the zealots dead is the key to any terran victory and this highground will offer his army some few extra shots before he has to kite back.
This would be if both players are not moving around and there is a lull period. In an actual fight just make it quicker and call out big plays.
ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE.
lol sorry about the caps but seriously, most casters cant predict the outcome of a fight to save their lives let alone build up suspense by doing so. Just call out what you see and not what you think will happen.
I've been saying for years how easily they could up the way content is produced and delivered to the SC2 viewer audience. For various reasons it just doesn't seem to get there. OP is good and brings up valid points that hopefully get fixed if esports in general will ever make the leap for a niche interest to main stream media.
For the people going on a caster rant, I present you this problem and if you can solve it then by all means you'll see headway. You have casters who carry a lot of weight in the industry, many of which to a tune sponsors for instance can put a face to a name to.
So even if there were commentators out there who can do a better job, how do you get them that job in the first place? Having run the caster gauntlet myself there is a billion and 2 hurdles to get over to even get a half way decent gig. It's a lot of time and sacrifice that most people either can't or are not willing to forgo family/career responsibilities to make. Speaking from personal experience there is no good way to usurp a name with recognition except by slowly building your own which takes a lot of time, hence why you see new faces only every so often.
TLDR: the only way casters with potential gets thrust forward is if a league grabs random people with potential and gives them enough financial incentive to focus on it.
ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE.
Actually, you do.
Besides that it is also kinda stupid to have people again complaining that SC2 casters aren't good enough players and don't play enough, and at the same time we are again comparing it with regular sport announcers now. Most of them really won't be any good at the games they cover.
Not to mention I believe most casters are fairly good players also.
It's simply impossible to take seriously casters who always act as if every player is playing well. Even the best players won't perform at their top every single match, and yet, the only casters I've heard say "X v Y was a terrible game" in the past three months are the P&T casters. Artosis and ToD do it in a more subdued way sometimes, but that's it.
You points you brought up are the exact problems I have been having with SC2 coverage as of recently (mainly in the WCS). The biggest annoyance to me is the use of buzzwords from casters. I understand at times it might be the best thing to say, but for the WCS Korean Recap video I expect much more. When they consistently use them it gives me the sense that they don't feel like giving a better description, or that they just really don't know what else to say.
Could not agree more with your criticism. Casting in SC2 has been my biggest disappointment with the game. I enjoy Idra's casting. I like Artosis. And....that's it.
Hyperbole, carnival barking, childish/poor humor, lack of game knowledge -- one or more of these creeps in to almost every "popular" caster we have in this community. It has bothered me from the start.
ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE.
Actually, you do.
Besides that it is also kinda stupid to have people again complaining that SC2 casters aren't good enough players and don't play enough, and at the same time we are again comparing it with regular sport announcers now. Most of them really won't be any good at the games they cover.
Not to mention I believe most casters are fairly good players also.
Idn if its this way in Europe or the rest of the world. But in American sports almost always one of the casters is a well known former player/coach. Usually accompanied by 1/2 communication professionals (Reggie miller, charles barkley, john madden, coach lou, Dick Vitel, van gundy, Jay Bilas, I could go on). So looking to traditional professional sports, I don't think you can really say the commentators "really won't be good at the games at all." Most of those people I name are hall of fame level.
"Robben plays well today..." stopped reading your post after this. :p Robben never plays well.
And duh, the recaps are marketed towards casual players and Blizzard thinks they are brain damaged and need to be spoken down to. (see WoW) It's not meant to be useful, they just want some people to be able to recognize terms they are using and then mentally file WCS as a professional e-sports thing which has ESPN like coverage.
On June 08 2013 03:49 Grumbels wrote: "Robben plays well today..." stopped reading your post after this. :p Robben never plays well.
And duh, the recaps are marketed towards casual players and Blizzard thinks they are brain damaged and need to be spoken down to. (see WoW) It's not meant to be useful, they just want some people to be able to recognize terms they are using and then mentally file WCS as a professional e-sports thing which has ESPN like coverage.
Even SportCenter which does pretty watered down recaps of games uses proper terminology and details the important events of the game. Currently, WCS Today recaps show highlights and generically talks about how the winner is good at SC2 while using match history as their explanation.
I'd like to see some casters who have been labelled as "Youtube Casters" or really anyone who can't enhance a cast with in depth game knowledge to be phased out from major live events. These type of casters are great for attracting new players to the game and have their own following of fans, but are out of their element at an MLG or Dreamhack.
Just because someone has a large following doesn't mean they're entitled to cast a major event.
Yeah, I agree with everything you've said and it was eloquently stated. The first example had me laughing because it's disappointingly typical. The strange thing is that some of the casters are genuinely excited about sc2 so it's a mystery why they don't go into more detail when they're talking about the games after they've been played.
It must be very difficult and time consuming to stay on top of the pro scene, especially when it comes to tournaments that regularly have players from EU, KOR and NA but it makes an enormous difference to the viewing experience.
My ideal casting combination is a play-by-play (who doesn't try to analyse/guess) and an analytical caster who's either a current pro, a highly-ranked player or a specialist analyst whose studied a lot of recent matches. Do one job well, rather than two poorly. When Totalbiscuit and Day[9] cast together, for example, I don't want Day[9] edging into the play-by-play because that pushes Tb into the analytical role just so he has something to say.
On June 08 2013 04:00 Zoygot wrote: I'd like to see some casters who have been labelled as "Youtube Casters" or really anyone who can't enhance a cast with in depth game knowledge to be phased out from major live events. These type of casters are great for attracting new players to the game and have their own following of fans, but are out of their element at an MLG or Dreamhack.
Just because someone has a large following doesn't mean they're entitled to cast a major event.
Completely agree with you, but I wonder how would you gather a talent pool if you were MLG then? You would just look 100% to former players? Even then you have to consider the communication ability of the person in addition to simply their game knowledge.
I imagine their logic is, if this guy can cast youtube games for 100 people without a bunch of dead air, he's probably going to do a fine job at our event. Also, you probably need to submit previous work to MLG for the position-- how does a player who only analyzes team replays privately going to have a comparable application?
I just wonder how we can foster a more knowledgeable caster base beyond the 1 in a 100 former player turned caster (every caster we as the community view as "good" is a former player I'm pretty sure- at least from BW era.) Guess all us "higher level" players need to start backing some high level youtube casters so they get comparable views
I completely agree. I hate watching WCS NA completely and Eu was just as bad with the "Next up we have a TvZ with 2 of [insert NA or EU] highest tier players!" As a viewer I sit here and I watch the game and I am like. This is not top tier. I leave the cast feeling like I just watched a game whos quality was that of a foreigner vs. Korean in code A qualifier. I want truth in my casts. Dont hype up a player who has been completely underperforming. tell me they have been sucking completely and that you would be suprised if they pulled out a win. That hypes up their win more than anything. We watch tournies. We see through the bullshit when you hype up a lower tier player. Its not needed and doesnt make anyone excited about them.
On 'the state' of SC2 coverage? I think this has been the state for so long that everyone just got used to it. Occasionally a commentator will say something meaningful before a match, but I've gotten used to those being rare, unexpected moments.
nowadays its more important for casters to have matching outfits and sit behind some fancy broadcasting desk.
It's really time to get back to the basics, get some fundamentally solid people that don't promote their own brand while also casting a starcraft game.
Hey everyone! This is actually really great feedback for us. I'd like to talk a little about the process here and let you know how we're incorporating the feedback:
1.) WCS Today started as a quick recap show, meant to show you everything you missed from the day before and get you ready for the upcoming matches. However, since the launch of our new WCS Portal, that focus mostly changes now as you can go to a site and catch up on everything you've missed.
2.) Going forward, we're going to evaluate all the comments and criticism here to implement into future episodes. We definitely feel the focus should steer more towards telling the story of the players, and we'll work to improve.
I've passed on the criticism to the entire core team here and we're reviewing to see how we can improve.
Great post and very well put. Some things about the professional side of sc2 are too friendly and not efficient enough. We have a surfeit of casters but not necessarily casting talent.
The one critique that particularly hit home though was problem 1. I think it's weirdly striking how youtube casters who knew little to nothing about the game itself did a better job creating a narrative surrounding players. Dinotoss who never wins. Evil pikachu kwanro. Mr 14CC. Chintoss! The guy who ended flash's tvt spree.
They weren't great but I feel in hind sight like they made more faceless stars into someone or a narrative.
I think this is a reasonable, thoughtful, and good criticism of a lot of sc2 casting and announcing. I certainly would enjoy more if casters talked about games the way I did with my friends-- specific references to tactics, big plays that happened, why you feel a certain way, and so on. That being said, I do understand why things are they way they are. Rarely is the choice (in life or in industry) between what is right and what is wrong-- it is between what is right and what is easy. It's easy to pick someone who talks a lot and fills silence with unmeaningful words. It might seem obvious to us that fan blogs and videos are of higher quality and are cooler, and hiring someone like that, or commissioning a work like that, would be a better strategy, but that doesn't mean it's something that's considered doable by those who organize tournaments.
There are legitimate fears about being wrong, or perceived as wrong, and in a lot of ways it's easier to go with what you're doing, even if it's worse, than try to change something and potentially make a mistake. It's easy to be safe, and it's easy to justify being safe. That being said, I'm glad that this article was written, and I enjoyed reading it. Putting to words what a lot of us think but haven't really articulated is valuable, and if there will be a change, it starts with something like this.
A lot of brutal truths about casting atm. The only bit I can offer is that as someone who literally only consumes SC2 Content (no TV, books, other games, etc) 24/7, we are expected to know a ridiculous amount of information off-hand at any given moment, and although I can read into a TvP and tell you all about the little things the players do its frustratingly difficult to stay on top of things like go4sc2cup results when it comes to the aforementioned Krass vs Harstem match. Keep in mind the only people who are paid to cast are the ones you see at live events 99% of the time, or if they have a studio like MLG or ESL.
I think another hindrance is that while I don't mind doing research, almost none of us have production like GOM that will feed us those interesting per map/race stats. Even if I'm busy casting another part of an event, and miss a series where Vibe does a new ZvP build, suddenly I'm a terrible caster for not knowing this was the game 3 all-in he did at the last dream hack.
It's not easy for anyone and while we certainly are aware of your problems, there are many pieces of production that are missing where the tournament organisers can make that information so much more accessibl
I tried not to make this a rant but I just want to agree with you while also making it known that we aren't just ignoring you while counting stacks of bills.
I want to contribute to this thread by saying what many have said before me, the OP is really well put. I guess it's part of the ongoing professionalisation of our scene and I think there's many that should read this and act upon it. Thanks!
But I like stats Usually when they are talking about statistics and results, it's at the beginning of the game anyway. Would you prefer Tasteless make some stupid comment during that time instead? When they mention that Innovation has an insane win-rate against zerg, I think "Oh man, he's in a group of 3 zergs, and THAT'S his winrate?! GG Zergs." I don't think you credit statistics nearly enough. The biggest problem is when they give stats (like for maps) when there have only been 1-5 games played on the map against miscellaneous opponents. Those are actually meaningless statistics. The sample size is too small. Shit, even Innovation's win-rate vs zerg has a small sample size, but it's enough to get something out of it.
Agree completely with Point 2 and 3 though. It's like that one video from Dustin Browder where he says "terrible terrible damage." Another thread covered this humorously a while back. Too lazy to find though. I'm sure if you searched terrible terrible damage you could find it. Link to infamous video.
When looking at tennis, both/all (usually) the commentators are ex-pros who both know plenty about the sport. Which is what every sport should try and do. With SC2, Idra is the best commentator ever. Whenever there is a HSC, the only thing I'm really interested in is actually seeing good players commentate. I usually only listen to the casts for the game sounds otherwise, indirectly listening to the casters. I don't mind Artosis or Khaldor/Wolf, though.
I wish they would play up the rivalry between regions more (or at all). I had to keep checking online to remember which Korean came out of which region. I feel like they could build up rivalries out of that.
ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE.
Actually, you do.
Besides that it is also kinda stupid to have people again complaining that SC2 casters aren't good enough players and don't play enough, and at the same time we are again comparing it with regular sport announcers now. Most of them really won't be any good at the games they cover.
Not to mention I believe most casters are fairly good players also.
It's not so much ability as it is depth of knowledge. Almost all sports casters are retired athletes or broadcasters who have tons of experience covering their sports, so there is a lot of knowledge there. Doesn't matter if McEnroe can play tennis very well anymore, but he did once and he knows the game well.
Edit: What we have now is a number of casters who just speak very very generically and just tell you what's happening. If it were radio, great, but we need casters to guide us through the game and to tell us things we don', but might want to know, not what we can see for ourselves.
I'm planning to do some analysis of some good casting and some bad (for both SC2 and more established entertainment), and i think that could be interesting.
As i see it, there are the starcraft players and fans who understand the game and want deeper analysis and the complete noobs who see a link on twitter and click it. I think major tournaments would rather have a more wide audience than only starcraft fans. At first, it was a good idea because nobody really understood this game but now, it may be the time to move on and speak more about the game itself. Sometimes, too easy is way worst than a bit difficult.
I agree with the OP in most of the points, though i really enjoy watching streams as it is.
On June 08 2013 04:36 Vestige wrote: I was watching the WCS finals with my roommate who is just getting into the starcraft scene.
"It's like the casters are trying to be sports casters...but aren't really doing a good job of it"
pretty much sums it all up
It's because they aren't sports casters. Technically anyone can cast a SC2/LoL/Dota2 game. We sort of have our own standards when it comes to this shit, but overall.. eek.
On June 08 2013 04:23 JP Dayne wrote: I feel sad that I have to agree with the OP.
It seems the "industry" is trying to milk the money in a forced kinda way with how they present the content.
Their editorial settings should definetly be reviewed.
I don't think you can really call that a criticism of the industry-- obviously they want to make money. I think actually bringing in a different style of casting or commentating would in fact align with the industry making money. I suspect it's more a problem of identifying and deciding to solve the problem than whether or not anyone actually wants to solve it. I'm pretty sure everyone involved wants a good cast.
Personal preference, so I don't really agree with you. I feel like some people like those things and I don't mind.
The biggest turnoff for me is long waiting times between games and sets, that really turns me off, but other than that I'm fine with most of the stuff.
On June 08 2013 04:40 Vestige wrote: why not have them act as sports casters? that would essentially fix all of the above issues.
Sports casting isn't an easy trade to get into. I only know of a few guys who are in the industry who have any experience in radio/broadcasting/communications like TB. Rest were hobbyists with a passion for the game.
On June 08 2013 03:04 LuisFrost wrote: I agree 100% with the over use of buzzwords. It makes me feel like the casters have no idea about what they're talking about.
That's what I was going to write. Good criticism OP!
On June 08 2013 02:32 Reflexz wrote: You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.
I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.
I know some Korean commentators face some pros on the KR ladder. Don't you think the Korean commentators are going to be able to give insightful information when they are playing the pros. Yes.
The english casters need to get better at SC2. I am tired of stats and random hype words. I want to know build order counters, scouting information, ordinary builds vs cheesey builds. I have seen some english commentators cast a game where a Terran goes 11 rax 11 gas vs a zerg and he explains that the Terran will do a reaper expand. Yeah.. But he is going to be putting a lot of aggression on with faster reapers..
Artosis/Wolf are Masters level on the korean ladder, I think that is good enough. Khaldor is also qutie a good caster even though he isn't quite as skilled (I think)
On June 08 2013 02:32 Reflexz wrote: You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.
I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.
I know some Korean commentators face some pros on the KR ladder. Don't you think the Korean commentators are going to be able to give insightful information when they are playing the pros. Yes.
The english casters need to get better at SC2. I am tired of stats and random hype words. I want to know build order counters, scouting information, ordinary builds vs cheesey builds. I have seen some english commentators cast a game where a Terran goes 11 rax 11 gas vs a zerg and he explains that the Terran will do a reaper expand. Yeah.. But he is going to be putting a lot of aggression on with faster reapers..
Artosis/Wolf are Masters level on the korean ladder, I think that is good enough. Khaldor is also qutie a good caster even though he isn't quite as skilled (I think)
I actually don't really think it's a matter of skill level. I mean, yes, I like the fact that Artosis, Wolf, and Khaldor are excellent players, but what I think is more of an issue is a decision to engage or not engage the game on a more intellectual level. I think some casters, especially the english-language casters working for Gom, do this quite well, but that's about it. I don't think the other casters are incapable of doing it at all, either. I think it's more that what makes you popular and what gets you hired by tourneys or organizations isn't just your ability/willingness to analyze, it's your ability/willingness to fill airspace and hype. It's pretty hard to talk for 30 solid minutes about a game, and it's still hard even with a co-caster. To do so intelligently (with the depth of say, someone talking about the game after the fact for just 5 minutes) is difficult and is also not what people are looking for a lot of the time. It's not like anyone is TRYING to not give analysis, it's just that we haven't done a good job of showing that it's what we want.
On June 08 2013 02:32 Reflexz wrote: You just put everything I have been thinking about SC2 casters over the past few months in perfect words.
I feel as if the root of the problem is the casters we have today just aren't very good at SC2. If anyone watches the Korean GOM and even Proleague commentators you can tell. They call timings before they happen and even entire builds within 3 minutes into the game and then explain the significance of it. It's simply because the Korean commentators are actually good at the game.
I know some Korean commentators face some pros on the KR ladder. Don't you think the Korean commentators are going to be able to give insightful information when they are playing the pros. Yes.
The english casters need to get better at SC2. I am tired of stats and random hype words. I want to know build order counters, scouting information, ordinary builds vs cheesey builds. I have seen some english commentators cast a game where a Terran goes 11 rax 11 gas vs a zerg and he explains that the Terran will do a reaper expand. Yeah.. But he is going to be putting a lot of aggression on with faster reapers..
Artosis/Wolf are Masters level on the korean ladder, I think that is good enough. Khaldor is also qutie a good caster even though he isn't quite as skilled (I think)
On June 08 2013 04:19 Sabu113 wrote: Some things about the professional side of sc2 are too friendly and not efficient enough.
This is a big one for me. A recent example was WCS America. The community was crying out for Bitterdam to cast the finals, but it went to Axslav and Axeltoss instead. Mr Bitter's response to the issue was a great example of this "friendly" attitude we see in eSports.
"Dude, absolutely not. Ax and Ax carried this thing from day one. One of our conditions for being here was that we DON'T take their final.
Show those guys some love. They've been busting their asses for weeks, and deserve this final."
They deserve it? Maybe so but it's really not about what those two guys deserve. It's about putting out the best possible product and keeping your audience happy. The same thing happened at NASL, having Incontrol and Gretorp cast the finals with Tastosis sitting right there and the community begging for them to do it instead. Personal relationships getting in the way of making good business decisions. Tournament organizers would rather take a hit to their viewer count than face the uncomfortableness of giving their friends the hard truth. It's actually mind boggling that this can happen in an industry that is trying to get the world to take it seriously.
On June 08 2013 04:19 ROOTNathanias wrote: A lot of brutal truths about casting atm. The only bit I can offer is that as someone who literally only consumes SC2 Content (no TV, books, other games, etc) 24/7, we are expected to know a ridiculous amount of information off-hand at any given moment, and although I can read into a TvP and tell you all about the little things the players do its frustratingly difficult to stay on top of things like go4sc2cup results when it comes to the aforementioned Krass vs Harstem match. Keep in mind the only people who are paid to cast are the ones you see at live events 99% of the time, or if they have a studio like MLG or ESL.
I think another hindrance is that while I don't mind doing research, almost none of us have production like GOM that will feed us those interesting per map/race stats. Even if I'm busy casting another part of an event, and miss a series where Vibe does a new ZvP build, suddenly I'm a terrible caster for not knowing this was the game 3 all-in he did at the last dream hack.
It's not easy for anyone and while we certainly are aware of your problems, there are many pieces of production that are missing where the tournament organisers can make that information so much more accessibl
I tried not to make this a rant but I just want to agree with you while also making it known that we aren't just ignoring you while counting stacks of bills.
This article isn't saying you have to have encyclopedic knowledge of every tournament's statistics to be a good caster. It's saying you have to know what hell the players are doing and what the implications of those actions are.
You're also blaming the equipment for a lack of expertise in your position (you're a caster from what it sounds like). You could stream at 240p and have a fuzzy mic, but still feed people solid steaks as far as content goes about the game itself and not the salad of cliches and arbitrary, useless information that SinCitta is talking about.
I know, it's easy for all of us to sit from a far and criticize when we're not the ones actually doing the job. But success in professional positions have standards that need to be met and/or exceeded in order for you thrive in, and a huge percentage of casters simply fail to meet those standards.
On June 08 2013 04:19 ROOTNathanias wrote: A lot of brutal truths about casting atm. The only bit I can offer is that as someone who literally only consumes SC2 Content (no TV, books, other games, etc) 24/7, we are expected to know a ridiculous amount of information off-hand at any given moment, and although I can read into a TvP and tell you all about the little things the players do its frustratingly difficult to stay on top of things like go4sc2cup results when it comes to the aforementioned Krass vs Harstem match. Keep in mind the only people who are paid to cast are the ones you see at live events 99% of the time, or if they have a studio like MLG or ESL.
I think another hindrance is that while I don't mind doing research, almost none of us have production like GOM that will feed us those interesting per map/race stats. Even if I'm busy casting another part of an event, and miss a series where Vibe does a new ZvP build, suddenly I'm a terrible caster for not knowing this was the game 3 all-in he did at the last dream hack.
It's not easy for anyone and while we certainly are aware of your problems, there are many pieces of production that are missing where the tournament organisers can make that information so much more accessibl
I tried not to make this a rant but I just want to agree with you while also making it known that we aren't just ignoring you while counting stacks of bills.
This article isn't saying you have to have encyclopedic knowledge of every tournament's statistics to be a good caster. It's saying you have to know what hell the players are doing and what the implications of those actions are.
You're also blaming the equipment for a lack of expertise in your position (you're a caster from what it sounds like). You could stream at 240p and have a fuzzy mic, but still feed people solid steaks as far as content goes about the game itself and not the salad of cliches and arbitrary, useless information that SinCitta is talking about.
I know, it's easy for all of us to sit from a far and criticize when we're not the ones actually doing the job. But success in professional positions have standards that need to be met and/or exceeded in order for you thrive in, and a huge percentage of casters simply fail to meet those standards.
Indeed, look no one is safe when it comes to criticism of your ability to dissect a game. We do it to everyone regardless of the sport or how much time you served in the business. For instance we butcher the NHL analysts in the NHL thread all the time. This isn't what the OP is really aiming for though. He's looking at the blueprint in which we go about the process.
Yeah it bothers me when casters says both players are good/excellent every time. Most time most of the audience knows which one is the weaker player and casters should be more ruthless telling it openly.
For example, random european zerg faces Innovation: "This is going to be rough ride for our challenger (nick) to play vs top caliber zerg killer like Innovation." Random chatting how he got unlucky with bracket/groups to add hype. Giving slim hope for underdog. If Innovation loses first map then casters should start finding flaws from Innovations play to add more hype if he loses BO3 or praise well executed cheese etc. So on and so on.
Sometimes casters cant see who is weaker player and who is expected to win. Perhaps I have too much BW in my mind.
ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE.
Actually, you do.
Besides that it is also kinda stupid to have people again complaining that SC2 casters aren't good enough players and don't play enough, and at the same time we are again comparing it with regular sport announcers now. Most of them really won't be any good at the games they cover.
Not to mention I believe most casters are fairly good players also.
Idn if its this way in Europe or the rest of the world. But in American sports almost always one of the casters is a well known former player/coach. Usually accompanied by 1/2 communication professionals (Reggie miller, charles barkley, john madden, coach lou, Dick Vitel, van gundy, Jay Bilas, I could go on). So looking to traditional professional sports, I don't think you can really say the commentators "really won't be good at the games at all." Most of those people I name are hall of fame level.
They WERE good at the game, they aren't anymore. While I have no idea who those people are, I am fairly sure they are compared to the best simply horrible currently. And look at the SC2 casters, many of them play at a fairly high level, or have been playing at a fairly high/(almost) pro level.
What I like about SC2 casters compared to sport casters is that in general they are much more 'self-made' famous. There are a whole bunch of casters, and everyone can become one. Granted now it is a bit harder, but at the beginning of SC2 it really was a pretty level playing field (sure there was broodwar influence, but still). You can't just become a sport caster, that is much more about having the correct connections.
Then if I look at the sport casters in the Netherlands. Mart Smeets is well known here. Mainly casts speed skating and road bicycle racing. I think his former career as basketball player doesn't really help him that much with it. Then we have also Jack van Gelder, who does the football (the real football, not handegg) stuff. He has never played any sports at anywhere near professional level. And sure there are also those who do have a former profesional career in the sports they cast (usually they are co-casters of those without), but pretty much none of them will now be good (profesional good) at the sports they cast, and enough of them haven't ever been good at them.
Then add that stuff I reacted on that was capitalized how sport casters never predict what will happen, which is just incorrect, and I really think that people who say SC2 casters should behave more like sport casters will only say that when it suits them.
Something else, regarding the casters being too enthousiastic and not 'objective' enough. Thats their job. I agree sometimes they do it too much, but their job isn't too point out every mistake made and how every code A player is horrible compared to top of Code S, their job is to entertain. I am a masters player, and of course that isn't anything special. But it does mean I really will know myself that that early probe that is going the wrong direction will be making a proxystargate, I don't need the casters to explain that. So why don't I disable the sound? Because it is nice listening to comments from the casters.
It is not only boring for the viewers, it is also damaging for the players. To a lot of people, "faceless Koreans" are just some numbers, their race winrates, because nobody bothers to talk about their play.
Those Koreans will stay faceless unless there really is something special about them. Either out of game, or ingame, but since that isn't the case for the majority of them there is really no way a non-Korean generally will connect with them (with a few exceptions).
However what surprises me:
Then, there are buzzwords. The video says YugiOh is showing solid play. Somewhere else in the video you will find that Soulkey plays aggressively.
Huh? You just complained that they didn't talk about his play. Okay this is the play in this game and not in general, but I think their general play style will be really hard to quantify, since either it is just average or it varies alot.
But here they do give their playstyle in the game. Playing solid or aggressive aren't buzzwords, they are playstyles. I can agree that especially solid is probably overused, but still it has a pretty clear meaning, at least to me (a conventional strategy with few mistakes). And well aggressive looks really clear to me.
I turn off the sound sometimes or listen to the korean stream (a language I cant understand) because I find the casters exceptionally misleading with their analysis. I found myself developing a lot of bad habits and misunderstandings about how the game works by adopting their philosophies and advice.
On June 08 2013 02:50 BronzeKnee wrote: Idra is one of my favorite casters due to these problems in OP. It also why I enjoy Artosis and Tasteless.
And this goes back to bringing in E-Sports personalities who know nothing about the game. How many times have we seen "pretty" female hosts do interviews that are totally devoid of substance simply because they know nothing about SC2?
It is sad that the major organizations choose to hire from outside of the SC2 scene just for good looks or a nice voice.
A bit strange you mention Tasteless as someone you enjoy because you agree with the criticisms in the OP when he probably is the epitome of the examples listed in OP.
What a great problem to have. "Some of the massive amount of free content I get from this awesome game, and it's awesome competitive scene, doesn't measure up to my standards".
On June 08 2013 05:54 Reborn8u wrote: What a great problem to have. "Some of the massive amount of free content I get from this awesome game, and it's awesome competitive scene, doesn't measure up to my standards".
The pursuit of excellence is one of the few things in this world you can't denounce from any angle. And this criticism was written voluntarily and given freely, same as the content.
On June 08 2013 05:54 Reborn8u wrote: What a great problem to have. "Some of the massive amount of free content I get from this awesome game, and it's awesome competitive scene, doesn't measure up to my standards".
so your point is, if they're free, they should not be criticized? .... I hate when people play this card -_-'
and it's not MY standards. It's called being reasonable.
First of all, let me preface that this isn't a bash of the persons involved in the examples. It's something prevalent in SC2 content and I could have easily chosen many others that fall into the same kind of trap. I am grateful that we have all the content producers in the scene. But I feel some things need to improve to move content quality forward.
In order to get hyped up for the WCS Season 1 Finals, I thought "hey, Blizzard has a team in San Francisco now, might check out what they are doing". After having somewhat problems even finding that channel, this is what I found.
Transcript: "JangBi coming in first in the group, playing extremely well. Really showing some fantastic play. Game 1... I believe this was, versus Swagger (?). Craaaazy impressive set, normally, you know, we are not the greatest fans of PvP, but wow, this... errr some incredible matches in last night's up and downs. And then, YugiOh, actually, making it out as well, going 3:1, really solid play out of him and I can't just believe that Gumiho went out 0:3. That absolutely blew me away."
It's the transcript of the first part of the show and is characteristic for the rest of it and also the sequel of the video. Look at the following problems:
Problem 1: Telling me about stats and results instead of telling me about the games Problem 2: Buzzwords, meaningless compliments and cliches about players Problem 3: Confuse giving information with creating hype, resulting in having none of both
Problem 1
It could have been easily written by someone that didn't watch the games at all. Check the live report thread for a minute, then think of something, write it down and then present it. I am not saying that this is the case, I am saying that it appears like this outputwise. If I cared about the result, I wouldn't be watching the video, I would have looked the results up on Liquipedia, the live report thread, on Reddit, on the WCS page, on my local esports website, ... What I want to know when I watch a video about it is a summary of what happened in the games.
And talking about race winrates of a player still doesn't mean you are talking about the game. Stats are nice accompanying information to games, but not more. You are still talking about stats. You know who is the best about giving meaningful information purely with statistical information without knowing one bit about the game? Monsieur Aligulac.
It is not only boring for the viewers, it is also damaging for the players. To a lot of people, "faceless Koreans" are just some numbers, their race winrates, because nobody bothers to talk about their play. The SC2 talk is superficial most of the time compared to the talk in other games while it is (in my opinion) a more complex game. Unfortunately, so complex that many just opt to drop the intracacies of strategies completely. Don't forget that the best way to have people watch the next tournament, the tournament after that etc. is to have them hooked on the game and players, not numbers.
Problem 2
What have we learned about JangBi? He is good, he plays well - nay, his place is fantastic. The set he plays in is impressive and he is the reason why I overcame my dislike for PvPs. His matches were incredible!
Yes, it does happen in normal sports coverage that the commentator says: "Robben plays well today...". But he doesn't say it again and again with the same breath. And more importantly: He says why he thinks he plays well today. "...he is very visible, running up and down the pitch. He helps in the defense which isn't very typical of him"-
Saying it like in the video makes you really wonder if JangBi played well after all. Did he play that well or are you just hyping the game because Blizzard pays you for it? A sports commentator doing the same in normal sports would make a parody out of his job.
I think the origin of Problem 2 is that casters, commentators and presenters are very afraid to say something substantial with the risk of being bashed because of it. Instead they fallback to meaningless compliments. I show how well I know the players by complimenting those that are hyped up right now. And conversely, we dislike PvP normally because this is the mainstream consensus.
Then, there are buzzwords. The video says YugiOh is showing solid play. Somewhere else in the video you will find that Soulkey plays aggressively. Buzzwords always somehow hit the mark. They sound like the speaker knows his stuff. But on closer inspection, they leave you unsatisfied. Someone that knows SC2 will want to know: What exactly did YugiOh do to classify him as solid in the series? And it will take some time to realize that aggressive is the codeword for roach baneling all-ins. Someone that doesn't know SC2 too well will think "What does solid play mean? And why is that good? It sounds boring and uneventful" whereas aggressive signalizes high-paced and action packed play. Again, explain what is happening instead of hiding behind words.
In the same category fall cliches about players. Best example, how often have you heard TLO being labeled as creative or Ret being labeled as greedy? Sometimes casters hold on so much to their preconceived opinions that they completely ignore what is happening on the map. For example in the WCS EU Challenger match between KrasS and Harstem, Harstem was seen as the overwhelming favorite against KrasS despite losing to KrasS only very recently on two separate occasions. Later the caster admitted he didn't know much about the EU scene at all and just assumed Harstem was the favorite because he just won a tournament and was on top of Reddit.
Which video hypes you up more? Which one should you show a friend to convince him to watch the event? The video produced by the former IPL staff or this fanmade video. For me, it is the low-end fanmade and somewhat cheesy trailer and the conservative formula: Players' faces, ingame clips and dramatic music. "But you said you wanted more information about game" - Yes, I want both. But more importantly, mixing these things up isn't fun. Either the information is hyping things up by itself - or it doesn't. The weather forecast isn't going to get more interesting by speaking it with a dramatic voice.
In fact, most sports coverage you get on TV is hype. You rarely find the tactics table taken out. There needs to be separate hype videos for WCS. Hype leads to more live viewers, more than "high level of play" (how do you even know you get high level of play until the games are over?).
Yes, talking about the games alone creates hype - but don't expect it to do it as well as a hype video. And don't mix these things up. Who exactly is attracted by results spoken out in a dramatic voice? Tell me why I should watch the next games, not why I should have watched the past ones! If you make a recap, give me a summary of the games rather than trying to sell them to me.
Solving the problems
An example how good a informational show around the games can be, I would like to give NASL's The Pulse as an example. They talk about the games themselves, the players and the teams, not only report stats and results. The recaps (often) summarize the games well and yet are still brief. And the recaps are actually only a small part of the content! After the show, you feel you got more value than skimming over Liquipedia.
How to get more expertise into esports talk? In sports in TV, there are pundits. We have such a diverse and big pool of players that this shouldn't be a problem. Why do casters and commentators make predictions who make it out of the group. Ask players who they think will advance and put it on screen. What do they think about the games, who do they cheer for etc, etc.
Hype videos: It should be a priority for tournament organizers to make them. I regularly find hype videos for Dreamhack on Reddit. There is even a hype video for the Homestory Cup (one guy in an apartment and capable helpers) on top of Reddit on the weekend of the WCS Season 1 Finals (Blizzard)! And yes, Blizzard, you are a tournament organizer now as well!
Of course, one could always say, it doesn't fit the show's format. And I wouldn't blame for example LiveOnThree for how they do things. But those that focus on SC2, why should your show exist in the first place if you get more information in five minutes on Liquipedia?
Yeah, I have to agree with you on most of your post but you must have choosen the best example to do so. That recap is despicable I watch it and did not even knew what it was supposed to be. It was not a recap since they never talked about any key moments of the matches nor was it informative since they just put up some result but never talked about whom they played against and what that result meant, who will they play against next.
So that transcript should be more like:
"JangBi coming in first in group x with, [insert other players of the group], playing extremely well. Really showing some fantastic play. Game 1 versus Swagger, he played an impressive PvPs. And then, YugiOh making it out as well, going 3:1 in total. Showing some really solid play. (Make in-game clip and explain or show final battle) . I can't just believe that Gumiho beat (whom he played against) convincingly with a stunning 0:3. That absolutely blew me away."
Hey OP, hope you read this and add it to your list of problems, because this one pisses me off more than all the things you listed. I HATE it when after the final game of the grand finals of a tournament, the casters say (literally exactly this) "Well, that's it." They don't even sound excited or anything at all. And the majority of casters are guilty of this. I dislike Day9's entire casting style cuz he (nothing personal, just my opinion) has a too nerdy vibe and makes nerdy sound effects and squeals and other stuff, but he is really pumped after the championship has been won and appropriately, reflectively gives praise to the performance of the winner (and 2nd place finisher and others ofc) and does a great job transitioning from that point into the interview/award ceremony. Seriously, you other casters really need to take a lesson in showmanship from Day9. for real..."...Well... that's it. Thanks for tuning in, guys."... Are you fuckin kidding me?
Overall I agree with most of this article, in actual casts there tends to be a much heavier lean towards creating hype at the sake of analysis. Part of this comes down to it is the job of the casters to make the games exciting, and when the games being casted are anything but, it becomes rather difficult to do that, but the casters need to find another means of doing so away from just throwing out the same buzzwords and yelling really loudly.
I do however have an issue with the example used at the beginning. While the majority of the article covers issues with casts as well as some with hype surrounding events the clip that was shown from WCS Today has a completely separate purpose from anything discussed in the OP. It is supposed to be a quick clip news show to go over recent events and update viewers on what has been happening. The way that they do it, in fact, is almost identical to ESPN's sportscenter or similar shows. The OP then compares it to a pure hype video and asks which one is better for hyping, and of course the answer is going to be the HYPE video. WCS Today is used, as any media surrounding an event would be, to try and interest potential viewers in watching the event but more than that their main focus is giving a fast summary of what has happened, and a brief preview of what is to come. I really don't think you compare these very different styles as they are aiming for completely different things. The problem that I see is that in many live casts you see the same methodology used as in WCS Today, and that IS a problem, but shows like WCS Today and SportsCenter and the like have their own place.
This is a really good thread. Thanks, OP. As much as I agree with your criticism, we must remind ourselves that doing anything live, sometimes in front of a camera, can make people nervous, and such. Often these "performers" have a "comfort zone" in which they can always come back to a safe haven, leading them to cliches, etc. A caster can be enthusiastic, but lack the knowledge, and vice versa. I see your point but there are several casters around that posses a pretty strong knowledge of the game and call out strats ahead of time. Artosis, Apollo, Wolf, Khaldor, to name a few.
In my opinion it really depends on the experience of the caster. The more experienced (or just plain "the better") caster will often not ruin casts by overusing buzzwords.
I think some of the less known casters often fall back on the buzzwords, where the ones I really respect (e.g. Kaelaris, Artosis, Apollo) will often keep it clean.
+ hype can be a powerful tool. I know TL has a love/hate relationship with Tasteless, but I honestly think he's soooo good at hyping (remember the MVP v Squirtle battlecruiser/mamaship battle?!?)
Couldn't agree more. Casters really need to just... know what the hell they're talking about.
Some casters do though: Artosis and Tastless (the best), and it always seems like Day[9] knows his shit too. (and funnily enough, Idra is a great caster (in terms of analysis and actually knowing what's going on).
Personally I also have a major problem with casters who have heavy accents or slur words etc (annoying voices)... but whatever it's harsh to call them out on that
Well-played. The first goal of most casters is to "grow ESPORts," which is fine, but comes off as overeager and desperate a lot of the time. Obviously, sports coverage in general will involve a lot of hype and repetition, but in our community it seems like the proselytizing bent is especially obvious. I think all this "awesome," "amazing games," "I really hope this set goes to a third game because, these games HAVE BEEN BLOWING MY MIND" nonsense has a place, but seems to come out of insecurity. If heaven forbid, the PvP on offer is dreadful, most casters wouldn't dare to say so lest this niche pursuit seem unimportant.
I think the only way out of this particular rhetorical morass is to get specific about the game, to go into detail, to have more facts, more thoughts about the strategy. Real attention to the game's narrow timings and the bravery of player's strategic choices based on limited information will convey the what that makes the game good rather than the should.
Also: Casters have to immediately stop, at the penalty of a hefty fine say such and such is "really annoying." There are pesky occasions when annoyance is the right characterization (say probe on drone harass) but when a perfectly timed counter drop can only be talked about as an irritant, than the game is being sold short. It's almost as if the shininess of SC2's death ball battles is distracting the casters from the fact that it is the snowballing effect of those smaller moments that really decide a good game. And, if both players 1a into each other, than no matter how many laser effects we see on screen, the players involved should be made fun of.
Let's not forget either how descriptive making fun of bad players is--how important it is to our understanding of the game. Remember theBestFou or ActionJesuz or BitByBit? Remember InControl talking about Muta v Muta battles? You probably do. Whereas, the lies and the terrible, terrible damage and who won often recedes from memory.
Agree, great article. One other thing that casters do a lot that annoys the crap out of me is that too many of them ask questions of their cocasters, "What do you think, do you think he is doing for x?" In athletic sports coverage, you don't hear a play by play man asking a color guy "Do you think he is going to throw a strike now?" or "What do you think of the squeeze play here in this position?"
It makes them sound like they don't know what they are talking about. As professional casters they should be trying to emulate casters from other fields of play, other professionals.
all of you should stop with comparing sport commentators with sc2 commentators because level of organization is different, sports have more tradition, strategies and known informations than few months old hots.. and you are comparing team sports to 1v1 e-sport, cmon! you can't commentate 3-4-5-6 tennis matches in a day and there is only few big tournaments in a year with four (+/- one) players that will beat everyone... and it lasts for years, informations are more accessible etc, etc, etc.. during match there are breaks (rounds in MMA and other fighting sports) so you can watch replays and predict what will (maybe) happen next and what were mistakes. Most important thing is that they have time to get some air and find good words. In sc2 you have no time, you have to react in second and most of those guys aren't professionals
compare them with individual sports.. i mean, you can hear so much BS when you are watching UFC and those guys are paid much more money, they have months to prepare and less players (fighters) to analyze.. and in the end, it is individual sport so some individual could do something you saw for a first time.. try to guess what will dimaga do when you are watching him.. and AGAIN, hots is a few months old game, sc2 is less than 3yrs old game and every sport you are talking about is "here" for decades..
this is a good OP but it is a bit unfair, just like comments...
There can always be improvement. It's important threads like these remain constructive and not nitpicking or bashing. I think you bring up some fine points and second those. A lot of times I enjoy the useless banter and squeals and awkwardness in an ironic way, as in I'm laughing at it, or just get off on cringe-worthy humor. But all in all, that off-topic humming and hawing that some casters are guilty of has got to go. You never hear Korean casters do that stuff and they always have interesting/in-depth points to make on the game at hand. This is obviously a skill you earn that can take years of experience. I would like to see more professionalism and HYPE brought to the games, but even now I think the game itself is partially at fault too. But I digress. A lot of the casters work hard, are casting for many long hours in a row and are doing a good job so far. Here's to improvement along the way.
Yeah you are kind of right some of the casters just tell you what your watching on the screen and then yell really loud over the most insignificant things.
On June 08 2013 04:31 Blargh wrote: But I like stats Usually when they are talking about statistics and results, it's at the beginning of the game anyway. Would you prefer Tasteless make some stupid comment during that time instead? When they mention that Innovation has an insane win-rate against zerg, I think "Oh man, he's in a group of 3 zergs, and THAT'S his winrate?! GG Zergs." I don't think you credit statistics nearly enough. The biggest problem is when they give stats (like for maps) when there have only been 1-5 games played on the map against miscellaneous opponents. Those are actually meaningless statistics. The sample size is too small. Shit, even Innovation's win-rate vs zerg has a small sample size, but it's enough to get something out of it.
I don't want to get rid of stats. Stats are fun, Aligulac is fun! But if you hardly speak about the games and only about results and stats, you are not producing great content.
On June 08 2013 05:41 Sissors wrote: However what surprises me:
Then, there are buzzwords. The video says YugiOh is showing solid play. Somewhere else in the video you will find that Soulkey plays aggressively.
Huh? You just complained that they didn't talk about his play. Okay this is the play in this game and not in general, but I think their general play style will be really hard to quantify, since either it is just average or it varies alot.
But here they do give their playstyle in the game. Playing solid or aggressive aren't buzzwords, they are playstyles. I can agree that especially solid is probably overused, but still it has a pretty clear meaning, at least to me (a conventional strategy with few mistakes). And well aggressive looks really clear to me.
Yes, buzzwords are okay if they are followed up with something. But here, they are used as the opposite of an ice breaker (to start the conversation). They are used to avoid talking about the games in detail. It's this little "swindle" in our language, where we think we feel informed in the beginning and wonder what it actually entails afterwards.
--
And a lot of talk about casters in general. I guess this can't be avoided and admittedly, the boundaries are blurred. There are lots of things casters can do or should avoid, it is very hard to do and I didn't really want to go into it much. I was more talking about the content you have going into the tournament and after it. And I felt it left much to be desired. Not necessarily because the work is not done, but because sometimes not the right work is done.
I wish there was more efforts put towards content, analysis, OBJECTIVITY and professionalism.
I feel bad for the guys who cast from home and think this criticism is being directed towards them. I have deep respect for the efforts they put into it. It is the opposite for those who wear a tie and suit in front of the camera; you are not allowed to suck and use the vocabulary of a 15 yrs old teen ( -''those ff's were sickkkk mannn'' ).
Also when I watch the fuckin SC2 world championships and I have the impression that Madals has a mancrush on Johnny Recco it pisses me off. ( see the word in caps )
I liked Tod and Kaelaris from WCS EU for those reasons. TB+Idra is the shit as well (even though they are not wearing a tie in studio but meh ).
I am noticing that my favorite casting pairs are the ones who are made of a guy that does description that has more of a host/journalist role and a player that knows his shit and has good analysis skills.
anyways I think that the OP nailed it right on the head
Great post, hope some producers are reading this !
For me I think when you want to get professional and insightful casting you need to have ex-progamers doing the casting. If you don't play the game at a high enough level commentation on games is just drivel and I often find myself seeking out the mute button. I don't play anywhere close to a pro but if I pay for a subscription I want professional commentation on the mind games and strategies employed by each player in the games. Not play by play, it ain't fucking radio.
If your not Master League or higher (EU/KR) you should not be a professional caster.
On June 08 2013 04:13 CatsPajamas wrote: Hey everyone! This is actually really great feedback for us. I'd like to talk a little about the process here and let you know how we're incorporating the feedback:
1.) WCS Today started as a quick recap show, meant to show you everything you missed from the day before and get you ready for the upcoming matches. However, since the launch of our new WCS Portal, that focus mostly changes now as you can go to a site and catch up on everything you've missed.
2.) Going forward, we're going to evaluate all the comments and criticism here to implement into future episodes. We definitely feel the focus should steer more towards telling the story of the players, and we'll work to improve.
I've passed on the criticism to the entire core team here and we're reviewing to see how we can improve.
Thanks!
Kevin
Please come back to casting events Kevin. Really enjoyed your IPL work!
On June 08 2013 04:13 CatsPajamas wrote: Hey everyone! This is actually really great feedback for us. I'd like to talk a little about the process here and let you know how we're incorporating the feedback:
1.) WCS Today started as a quick recap show, meant to show you everything you missed from the day before and get you ready for the upcoming matches. However, since the launch of our new WCS Portal, that focus mostly changes now as you can go to a site and catch up on everything you've missed.
2.) Going forward, we're going to evaluate all the comments and criticism here to implement into future episodes. We definitely feel the focus should steer more towards telling the story of the players, and we'll work to improve.
I've passed on the criticism to the entire core team here and we're reviewing to see how we can improve.
Thanks!
Kevin
Great to see you casting again! I have to agree with everyone else here- patterning the WCS Today off of SportsCenter (which follows the "highlights until the end, then final score" formula for every single game) would totally work for SC2. That formula is pretty interesting and fun, as with games you missed (but don't plan to watch), you get a sort of 30-second synopsis that can be significantly more rewarding than just reading the scoreline. Showing the highlights and turning points of each game also facilitates "watercooler conversation", which has been a driving force in the popularity of mainstream sports for 50 years. With SC2 that isn't quite happening yet (though I do have some friends to talk pro SC2 with), but it would facilitate "TL cooler discussion" better.
Very good article. Maybe this time the community will not massively answer by "but they are doing their job!"... I think we can add the fact that foreigners casters are lacking of a kinda of energy/enthousiasm in their casting compare to KR. I already said it before but i think they should try the trio formula. It adds more rythm, u have less time to talk so u dont fill time with meaningless bs, etc.. It must be tested. We have some ersatz of it in HSC, wich is btw one of my favorite tournament because all said in the OP, and its pretty cool.
I watch PL and GSL mostly in KR language even if i dont understand it. But since 2000 ive been watching so many BW games casted with this language... it sounds very familiar. Its weird....
On June 08 2013 06:34 purgerinho wrote: all of you should stop with comparing sport commentators with sc2 commentators because level of organization is different, sports have more tradition, strategies and known informations than few months old hots.. and you are comparing team sports to 1v1 e-sport, cmon! you can't commentate 3-4-5-6 tennis matches in a day and there is only few big tournaments in a year with four (+/- one) players that will beat everyone... and it lasts for years, informations are more accessible etc, etc, etc.. during match there are breaks (rounds in MMA and other fighting sports) so you can watch replays and predict what will (maybe) happen next and what were mistakes. Most important thing is that they have time to get some air and find good words. In sc2 you have no time, you have to react in second and most of those guys aren't professionals
compare them with individual sports.. i mean, you can hear so much BS when you are watching UFC and those guys are paid much more money, they have months to prepare and less players (fighters) to analyze.. and in the end, it is individual sport so some individual could do something you saw for a first time.. try to guess what will dimaga do when you are watching him.. and AGAIN, hots is a few months old game, sc2 is less than 3yrs old game and every sport you are talking about is "here" for decades..
this is a good OP but it is a bit unfair, just like comments...
i agree with the op but this post has some merit to it, especially the point about ufc commentating being shit. there are actually a lot of similarities such as stating the obvious (gsp is better/stronger in x than some other guy, or that y is going to go for the take down while z is a striker and has to avoid it [no shit]) etc that gets ragged on the entire fight. what they do right though is using buzzwords + expectations = he's looking to be aggressive by striking x's lead foot to take him off balance etc. sc2 commentators should tell us how a player is looking to play if he's playing aggressively/passively. even better if they can tell us what a specific player likes to do (prefers to roach bling all in, prefers muta harass, prefers to 14cc)
God damn it Golem that Chance of Snow video has me crying tears right now it's so fucking epic and classy.
Why can't we have something like that? Nukethestars so amazing.
Oh my god Jaedong walking down the aisle to the stage literally shaking shit's too awesome.
Oh my god both those videos bring back so much holy shit...I think we've lost that sense of pure epicness in SCII right now. Ofc Nukethestars is just fucking amazing but still. We need to start glorifying the players way, way more.
Holy crap Chance of Snow is probably the most classy hype video I've ever seen. I've watched it 5 times now lol.
Problem 2: Buzzwords, meaningless compliments and cliches about players
This is actually a big problem about casters who do not know what they are talking about. They think too much about they hype, forgetting that it is the game that we want to watch and enjoy.
I imagine there is a positive correlation between the quality of the casts and the amount the casters are paid. Now imagine for a moment that casters are, by and large, paid the same amount as a home depot employee would you still be demanding high standards of them? Given this and the nature of what they are commentating on (huge down time, vast swathes of games in which nothing is happening, 20 minute long drawn out build order losses) I think that in most cases the casting is more than adequate.
To read this thread you would think that what people want is only technical information about builds and strategies. Having a good obs and an engaging play-by-play guy is important too.
On June 08 2013 05:28 Xahhk wrote: Speaking loudly and excitedly during every engagement is also counterproductive
I like it when they get excited at times when there's a lot going on or there's a big mistake. It reflects my own excitement.
On June 08 2013 04:19 ROOTNathanias wrote: The only bit I can offer is that as someone who literally only consumes SC2 Content (no TV, books, other games, etc) 24/7, we are expected to know a ridiculous amount of information off-hand at any given moment... its frustratingly difficult to stay on top of things like go4sc2cup results when it comes to the aforementioned Krass vs Harstem match. Keep in mind the only people who are paid to cast are the ones you see at live events 99% of the time, or if they have a studio like MLG or ESL.
I think another hindrance is that while I don't mind doing research, almost none of us have production like GOM that will feed us those interesting per map/race stats. Even if I'm busy casting another part of an event, and miss a series where Vibe does a new ZvP build, suddenly I'm a terrible caster for not knowing this was the game 3 all-in he did at the last dream hack.
Haha! you're totally right about the potential reaction to your missing that one build. That's an interesting post. It's easy to forget that the 'knowledgeable' television commentators have a team of researchers feeding them interesting information.
Consuming only sc2 content sounds like an unimaginable horror.
On June 08 2013 04:39 Blazinghand wrote: I think actually bringing in a different style of casting or commentating would in fact align with the industry making money. I suspect it's more a problem of identifying and deciding to solve the problem than whether or not anyone actually wants to solve it. I'm pretty sure everyone involved wants a good cast.
Imagine going up to DJWheat and Apollo before a cast and saying, 'ok, Marcus, I want you to stick to the play-by-play and keep an eye on Sean in case he wants to add some detail, Sean, just keep quiet and signal when you want to add something so that Marcus can bring you in. P.S. Try to make it seem natural and like you're having a friendly chat about the game'.That would be super awkward.
After you've seen a thousand games it must be difficult just to remember what happened in the last game you saw. Especially as for the first 2 minutes of every game you need to find something to say to fill the space.
Casters (mainly the non analytical ones) should work on actually being good at talking about the game and not saying "both players want to win this game", "he does not want to lose this game!" every minute of a game ;p Talk about the actual game or get some new interesting filler content for your casts. As it is now you can copy the cast of a game and replace the names, and you'd save money of having casters for every match.
On June 08 2013 04:13 CatsPajamas wrote: Hey everyone! This is actually really great feedback for us. I'd like to talk a little about the process here and let you know how we're incorporating the feedback:
1.) WCS Today started as a quick recap show, meant to show you everything you missed from the day before and get you ready for the upcoming matches. However, since the launch of our new WCS Portal, that focus mostly changes now as you can go to a site and catch up on everything you've missed.
2.) Going forward, we're going to evaluate all the comments and criticism here to implement into future episodes. We definitely feel the focus should steer more towards telling the story of the players, and we'll work to improve.
I've passed on the criticism to the entire core team here and we're reviewing to see how we can improve.
Thanks!
Kevin
Great to see you casting again! I have to agree with everyone else here- patterning the WCS Today off of SportsCenter (which follows the "highlights until the end, then final score" formula for every single game) would totally work for SC2. That formula is pretty interesting and fun, as with games you missed (but don't plan to watch), you get a sort of 30-second synopsis that can be significantly more rewarding than just reading the scoreline. Showing the highlights and turning points of each game also facilitates "watercooler conversation", which has been a driving force in the popularity of mainstream sports for 50 years. With SC2 that isn't quite happening yet (though I do have some friends to talk pro SC2 with), but it would facilitate "TL cooler discussion" better.
It's really difficult to give good recaps of SC2 games though. For many sports they can just show a mix of the best or most tense points, but in SC2 it's hard to pick out single instances in a game that are impressive or interesting to watch because it often seems meaningless when divorced from the context of the game. Highlight videos are especially handicapped for this reason, recaps/battle reports of games are still possible but run the risk of becoming either generic and uninformative or cynical and not suited for a mainstream audience (imagine idra doing the recaps).
Solid post. Hopefully your criticisms are already being considered by casters and content producers alike when trying to improve their respective products.
On June 08 2013 09:00 SnipedSoul wrote: I'm pretty tired of stuff being so overhyped. I don't need to hear that X player is "THE BEST IN THE WORLD!!!" every single minute of a cast.
Yes, I agree. People nowadays throw terms like "god" around so loosely, it's really trivializing the word.
OP makes a great point, we really need better English language casters. We hold our players to such a high standard, why don't we do the same for casters?
ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE.
Actually, you do.
Besides that it is also kinda stupid to have people again complaining that SC2 casters aren't good enough players and don't play enough, and at the same time we are again comparing it with regular sport announcers now. Most of them really won't be any good at the games they cover.
Not to mention I believe most casters are fairly good players also.
It's not that they aren't good enough players, it's that they don't know the game. It's like saying, I could beat my boxing coach in a match, doesn't change the fact that he's an amazing coach that has produced countless champions and has forgotten more about the sport than I'll probably ever learn.
It's a lack of knowledge, not skill that's keeping them from casting better and making them fall back on buzzwords and vague statements because they are worried about being called out for saying the wrong things.
Apart from a select few casters, the entire SC2 casting scene is a big joke. It's just a bunch of people that want recognition from the game but are not good enough, skillwise, to compete with the best (or to even compete within masters league for that matter). What ends up happening is that they turn to commentating as an avenue for their own fame and recognition with a severe lack of skill and/or personality.
I'd honestly rather read subtitles of the korean casters than have to listen to the junk that comes out of 95% of the english casters who just spit out buzzwords and have no idea of the depth of gameplay that is unfolding before them.
I'm glad someone voiced this issue in a coherent manner though. Great job OP!
I think you are totally en-point with this. Thank you for putting this into correct and polite words. Hopefully casters will understand and step it up.
what turns me off way more are the "analytical" casts for the sake of trying to say something clever because it is expected of you. Very often the casters that get classified are just trying way too hard and miss the point/read something wrong into a situation/point out the obvious and try to make it sound clever. You are not there to take 5 minutes to explain to me for the third time how a player won the game with a beautiful arc when you cannot even tell the other guy move commanded by accident, or how clever he is for using the manual attack of a colossus on his own zealot to get rid of burred zerglings in his base when there is an observer straight above and the zealot takes no damage. Stuff like that gets me quicker off the stream than if you were to have technical difficulties and the screen would die. You are there to tell me what that gas timing indicates, what would be the logical follow up to that opening, how a pro player evaluates the situation given his scouting and what a reasonable response will be, given the current meta game which you should be fully aware of (like ZvZ currently changes every week completely). Stuff like that requires you to play at the top level, otherwise you will not get that insight by braining hard alone. For example, I am really impressed by how knowledgable Khaelaris often times is, and I partially blame it on his excessive casting of pro games but also on him being quite high on the ladder as a random player. And if Artosis does not know what is going on he is honest enough to most of the time not make shit up, but to tell you outright that he has no clue what is going on. This is no problem for me. Just don't try to sell analysis by force, most games still get won by the other guy making a crucial mistake, not the winning guy playing a better strategy.
My biggest gripe with SC2 casters in general is their lack of vocabulary. They use certain words of terms over and over and over and over, sometimes 2 or 3 times in the same sentence! I know esports is still in its infancy and all but you'd never get that from the best of the best in traditional sports. Al Michael's isn't repeating the same word or phrase constantly during Sunday Night Football. I understand he's a thousand so he's wise and been doing this forever but it rubs me the wrong way to hear casters do it.
I'm not going to harp on anyone specifically since I don't want to come off as a twat. They all do it to some extent, and some are worse offenders than others. "Player X is massing up for an early aggressive push, BUT player Y is starting to make roaches to hold this off, BUT player X is teching into banshee to follow this up, But player Y is now starting his lair tech!" There are a million words you could have replaced those 4 buts with to make your run on breathless sentence less cringe worthy. That's just one minor example of a tiny 3 letter word being over used, but it happens all the damn time!
I know the main crop of casters aren't dumb people. I don't know exactly why they get stuck in this box but it happens to the best of them. They'll repeat a word when there are plenty of synonyms to change it up with. They'll repeat a silly catch phrase ad nauseum. Maybe I'm just picky but I expect the best commentators to be masters of the language and oration. You should be able to paint me a picture with only your words and you should be able to do it without repeating certain words too many times let alone in the same breath! Have you ever listened to a good sports caster calling a football game over the radio? He's able to describe everything in detail as if you were actually there and do so quite beautifully. It is possible to do, that's like another level of casting beyond what we actually need since we obviously have TVs and computers to view the games on. There's no reason our casters can't aspire to be like TV sports casters though.
I guess this can also be filed under "SC2 coverage":
Yearly tickets bought on gomtv.net apparently do no cover the WCS season finals. GOM expect us to buy yet another ticket for that. What you get for it? Artosis casting solo in an almost empty studio with a limited video feed from OGN.
Next to that there are now six WCS Twitch streams that you need to subscribe to in most cases to be able to see VODs:
I have to agree that the casters for WCS finals were absolutely disappointing. I constantly found myself thinking that they spoke very much but had very little to say. It felt very fake to me. And to the people who think it's not okay to criticize the casters, remember that just finding 3-4 good, professional casters on the level of Artosis and Tasteless would do wonders for the growth of Starcraft as a competitive sport.
On June 08 2013 05:54 Reborn8u wrote: What a great problem to have. "Some of the massive amount of free content I get from this awesome game, and it's awesome competitive scene, doesn't measure up to my standards".
The pursuit of excellence is one of the few things in this world you can't denounce from any angle. And this criticism was written voluntarily and given freely, same as the content.
For the record, I love you and the free content you produce as well <3 Yes, we should continue to strive for excellence, but I stand by my point. What an awesome problem to have in light of how things were just a few short years ago!
Overall I have to say that I was kind of pleased with that recap. I mean it was fast and of course not in depth, but it gave me more than liquidpedia would have. So that was good.
Otherwise I agree with the hype thing. I have had some issues with IPL productions in the past, and to some extent the MLG ones, without really being able to explain why they annoyed me so much. This is probably an important reason why. It sounds like the casters on occasions are trying very hard to sound professional, and the whole flow of the words are nice sounding (even without listening to the buzzwords), but I can't help but think that this shallow beauty comes at the cost of substance.
I think the solution to this is to show more personality, by being more honest while casting by for example being excited when there is actually something to be excited about. When Artosis is really excited about something I believe him (overall), but that's also because he isn't super-excited about every single baneling that explodes. It can't always be 100% "AMAZING", and instead it should pick up and slow down much like the game itself does. I get that a caster needs to be more engaged than the casual viewer, but it can just become too much and obviously fake. Apart from that what I call "showing personality" would include basically anything that makes the cast less generic-smooth-sounding, and likely different from other casts. Like the dynamic and choice of subjects to discuss between some casters like Mr Bitter and Rotterdam.
So close to OP on this but a somewhat different take.
I feel like casting isn't bad with the exception of the fact that many of the analytical casters seem to be doing a poor job, and the exciting games just don't feel that way. The casters aren't getting into it in many cases. I see Tobi on Dota, the old BW casters, and LoL casters getting really excited when they cast, to the point where they are shouting. I don't mean to say that we need our ears blown off, but maybe a little more excitement? I was watching the WCS Korea stream and it was so monotonous. I just can't do that. I love sc2, and while I don't play very much anymore, I still watch, and I just wish that we could have casters that want to make me watch. Tastosis are said time and time again to be the best, and I think the reason why is that they show emotion or at least tasteless shows enough for 2 people.
Great points, agreed with a lot of them. The hype really seems hollow and ridiculous at times. Particularly the last GSL final with Soulkey vs Innovation. Tasteless was riding the hype train so hard in that one. So often I hear commentators talking about the game in terms of meaningless adjectives like sick, awesome, ridiculous etc. Maybe they cast too much and have just fallen into patterns of hyping without really feeling it, and discussing things without really saying anything. Basically it's become a stale job for them and they're just going through the motions. That's one thing I love about incontrol's casting. It's fresh, he always seems to be having fun, cracking jokes and telling it how it is. Khaldor's another who still seems to really enjoy what he's doing.
On June 08 2013 09:00 SnipedSoul wrote: I'm pretty tired of stuff being so overhyped. I don't need to hear that X player is "THE BEST IN THE WORLD!!!" every single minute of a cast.
I think we need to differentiate hype and excitement. Not ALL hype is false and phony some can make it very exciting like those hype videos posted. Excitement can be contagious, from the content, down to casters and then players. 2/3 ain't bad, lets face it not all players will be charismatic, can't change that. Callingsomeone the best can be true but I agree, why isn't being the best in Europe good enough to impress? I feel like everything has gotten blown out of proportion.
There are really good stories about farm boys who worked hard to go pro too, not every story has to be world dominance.
On June 08 2013 14:04 Scarecrow wrote: Great points, agreed with a lot of them. The hype really seems hollow and ridiculous at times. Particularly the last GSL final with Soulkey vs Innovation. Tasteless was riding the hype train so hard in that one. So often I hear commentators talking about the game in terms of meaningless adjectives like sick, awesome, ridiculous etc. Maybe they cast too much and have just fallen into patterns of hyping without really feeling it, and discussing things without really saying anything. Basically it's become a stale job for them and they're just going through the motions. That's one thing I love about incontrol's casting. It's fresh, he always seems to be having fun, cracking jokes and telling it how it is. Khaldor's another who still seems to really enjoy what he's doing.
I like Incontrol as well. I remember some tournament he casted a long time ago with Nada vs some terran. Incontrol was genuinely blown away by Nada's macro and how easily he rolled over his opponent. The excitement and awe was readily apparent in Incontrol's voice and manner, so it got me excited as well.
Repeatedly screaming about how perfect and godly someone is doesn't do it for me.
i absolutely loved this thread, very very well done I feel absolutely the same
I wanna write something ,things which have been said but just something i feel About almost every caster out there
So many words but so little in it Talking what is happening on the screen is pointless, I have eyes my own
I talk alot, therefore iam a good commentator, this is very false
Repeating words is really annoying, describing things with alot of words is also annoying. Dont drag out on things please
Explaining something with few words is Good But dont go in general things "he is so good" , the thread pointed this out very nicely So all i say is saying that sentence doesnt provide any information for me whatsoever
All it do is giving me " so you think he is good, ok" Sort of.
And also, many commentators they say things which the other commentator already said. Wtf? Thats absurd
And very many things get dragged on for a long time I see many faults with these commentators
General faults. You do not need to be excellent at the game or know very many details. You can still entertain
So instead of literally explaining what is going on and trying TO GUESS things "i think he is gonna win this" Just tell his next move or something i cant teach you everything.
I have a hard time with my emotions personal reasons, i have good things to say but i have a hard time saying it, but i tried i hope this gives something.
I think rather then people focusing on the casters being at fault when they don't know everything about everyone. People should start holding leagues more responsible to support the commentators with information.
Let me put it this way, how hard would it be for leagues to have 1 or 2 salaried employees who's only job is to do research on players coming to their events. Maybe in the case of an open bracket MLG at Anaheim not every single player, but at least the players most likely to be on the main stream.
These 1 or 2 people put together talking points for all the players. How they like to play, interesting background information, anything they can get directly from the players, recent results etc. You take those talking points put them in a giant packet and hand it to all your commentators. Now anytime anyone is playing it becomes as simple as flipping to a page in a booklet to have information at your fingertips.
I personally used to do some of the above when I did casting, but frankly it was way to much work to have more then a few key players for say a weekly tournament prepared to go. I can't tell you how much better I thought a commentary with that kind of information went compared to one with players where at best they had a liquipedia page to go off of.
ALSO STOP PREDICTING FIGHTS CASTERS. YOU NEVER HEAR A SPORTS ANNOUNCER PREDICT SOMEONE TO WIN WITH 30 SECONDS LEFT IN THE GAME WHEN THERE IS STILL ANY CHANCE.
Actually, you do.
Besides that it is also kinda stupid to have people again complaining that SC2 casters aren't good enough players and don't play enough, and at the same time we are again comparing it with regular sport announcers now. Most of them really won't be any good at the games they cover.
Not to mention I believe most casters are fairly good players also.
It's not that they aren't good enough players, it's that they don't know the game. It's like saying, I could beat my boxing coach in a match, doesn't change the fact that he's an amazing coach that has produced countless champions and has forgotten more about the sport than I'll probably ever learn.
If a caster comes by to check here how he could do better (by catering more to disgruntled TL'ers), he will leave really confused.
You say the issue isn't their skill. Literally the next poster claims the issue is their skill. Then the problem is they just give stats. But if they describe their playstyle the problem is that apparantly describing their playstyle is currently considered a buzzword. And they have to be purely objective. But not stats. And not 'screaming' when something exciting happens. But they also should be more enthousiastic, since that is the issue. Oh and not to mention they should be more like sport casters. Well they should be more like sport casters, when it suits the poster for his argument. Because half the other demands are completely the opposite of many sport casters.
And no personally I don't think the casters are perfect. I do think the issue is blown way out of porportions here, and considering that the problems people have here are often contradicting each other, and that is just from the people on TL, I do think they are doing quite well.
There's no solution because being good at or knowing anything about the game is not a prerequisite of being a caster. So long as casters gain nothing from actually doing their jobs well, since most viewers don't know the difference anyway, it's not going to get any better. And it hasn't.
On June 08 2013 14:51 Alejandrisha wrote: There's no solution because being good at or knowing anything about the game is not a prerequisite of being a caster. So long as casters gain nothing from actually doing their jobs well, since most viewers don't know the difference anyway, it's not going to get any better. And it hasn't.
They do gain something by doing their job well, more viewers. But if as you say the vast majority of the viewers are completely fine with the current casting, than maybe their simply isn't an issue.
On June 08 2013 04:13 CatsPajamas wrote: Hey everyone! This is actually really great feedback for us. I'd like to talk a little about the process here and let you know how we're incorporating the feedback:
1.) WCS Today started as a quick recap show, meant to show you everything you missed from the day before and get you ready for the upcoming matches. However, since the launch of our new WCS Portal, that focus mostly changes now as you can go to a site and catch up on everything you've missed.
2.) Going forward, we're going to evaluate all the comments and criticism here to implement into future episodes. We definitely feel the focus should steer more towards telling the story of the players, and we'll work to improve.
I've passed on the criticism to the entire core team here and we're reviewing to see how we can improve.
On June 08 2013 14:51 Alejandrisha wrote: There's no solution because being good at or knowing anything about the game is not a prerequisite of being a caster. So long as casters gain nothing from actually doing their jobs well, since most viewers don't know the difference anyway, it's not going to get any better. And it hasn't.
They do gain something by doing their job well, more viewers. But if as you say the vast majority of the viewers are completely fine with the current casting, than maybe their simply isn't an issue.
I don't think there is an issue because a caster making wrong calls will not necessarily make or break a tournament. The games and players are what is more important. The only time it becomes an issue is when the casters are way worse than the players, as it begins to feel kind of disrespectful to the players.
On June 08 2013 14:35 Nerski wrote: I think rather then people focusing on the casters being at fault when they don't know everything about everyone. People should start holding leagues more responsible to support the commentators with information.
Let me put it this way, how hard would it be for leagues to have 1 or 2 salaried employees who's only job is to do research on players coming to their events. Maybe in the case of an open bracket MLG at Anaheim not every single player, but at least the players most likely to be on the main stream.
These 1 or 2 people put together talking points for all the players. How they like to play, interesting background information, anything they can get directly from the players, recent results etc. You take those talking points put them in a giant packet and hand it to all your commentators. Now anytime anyone is playing it becomes as simple as flipping to a page in a booklet to have information at your fingertips.
I personally used to do some of the above when I did casting, but frankly it was way to much work to have more then a few key players for say a weekly tournament prepared to go. I can't tell you how much better I thought a commentary with that kind of information went compared to one with players where at best they had a liquipedia page to go off of.
This sounds nice, but quite possibly unrealistic. You can't just create jobs out of nowhere without having a foundation to pay these people. Casters should do a lot of their own research.
I think all casters could learn something from the OP. Very "well" written. "Solid" post. haha
I think casters, at least the play-by-play variety, need to take a lesson from announcers in other sports. A great example of how you can vary your language when going through the play-by-play of a game is in the NHL. Hockey announcers do a fantastic job of diversifying their syntax. A puck that's dumped into the other team's zone happens dozens of times a game, but they find unique verbiage to make it interesting.
On June 08 2013 15:26 MistaBlue wrote: I think casters, at least the play-by-play variety, need to take a lesson from announcers in other sports. A great example of how you can vary your language when going through the play-by-play of a game is in the NHL. Hockey announcers do a fantastic job of diversifying their syntax. A puck that's dumped into the other team's zone happens dozens of times a game, but they find unique verbiage to make it interesting.
Perhaps you give casters of sports too much credit. I'm sure they are good and bad ones, but in the rare occasion I watch a game on tv, I'm usually surprised how little the commentator actually says.
On June 08 2013 15:26 MistaBlue wrote: I think casters, at least the play-by-play variety, need to take a lesson from announcers in other sports. A great example of how you can vary your language when going through the play-by-play of a game is in the NHL. Hockey announcers do a fantastic job of diversifying their syntax. A puck that's dumped into the other team's zone happens dozens of times a game, but they find unique verbiage to make it interesting.
I agree with this. Mike "Doc" Emrick, for hockey, is the absolute gold standard of someone who has put in incredible effort and honed his craft. His game calls are never stale, never re-gifted terms of art. You will never hear "at what cost" equivalents 15 times in the span of 2 minutes...
This has been an issue since the beginning of SC2, and I'm glad someone has spoke up about it.
However looking at the comments, I don't think anything will change. 3/4 of the posts in this thread somehow came up with a completely wrong conclusion from the OP and used it as an excuse to bash casters.
Some casters instead of hyping up the players or the game they are casting, they like to call out mistakes(usually they aren't even mistakes) players made but not praise the other player for doing well. Made me feel like I am watching some bronze games, really demotivate me to keep watching the game when I hear the word "mistake" constantly whether it is true or not. :D
Most of the stats are pretty stupid anyways because the sample size is too small.
I do not agree with OP. One of the main reasons I like about watching SC II tournaments is that the casters are not boring professionals or lets say do things that other professional sports dont casters do. They are much more down to earth and much more individual and I like that. This is also one reason why WCS america fails because their casters seem to want to imitate other professional sport casters and this sucks. For the same reason NASL began to suck.
Your comments about summaries is also not really convincing. If you want so much information about the game, then go along and watch it. A summary should only include the few major points if there where any and the stats, otherwise just watch the vods ...
And interviewing the players all the time is difficult and the reasons are: * multiple languages and often players speak bad English * players are young and have no media training of course and this leads to stupid awkward interviews
Another thing for me is the quality on interviews, if you have a long drawn out interview, a normal talk where the player explains things thats okay. If you mean the interviews where players say 2-3 lines and then with a [woosssh] or other sound effect the next player talks and then the next. Every time I see this I want to punch the production guy in the face for stupidity.
So I think that the amount of interviews is okay, there are some short and some long but I dont need intervirews everygame and I certainly don't need that cheese filler intervies where players say one dumb line.
Well written. As to the point that casters compliment without giving reasons, SC2 has now developed to the stage where well-known pro's are retiring (think IdrA) and have a chance to continue as casters. This increases the number of people who understand the game at a profound level and can talk about the games themselves at length. If we look at sports casters, it's often the case that the best casters were previously professionals. Due to the technical nature of SC2, this is even more important for Starcraft casters.
This sounds nice, but quite possibly unrealistic. You can't just create jobs out of nowhere without having a foundation to pay these people. Casters should do a lot of their own research.
Just would respond with, in reality there is no foundation at least from a profit stand point to pay anyone in eSports. It's all investment at this point, so why not invest in something that makes sense for the overall production of your broadcast. That and honestly speaking they could probably get a few people more then willing to do something like this without paying them that much at all, if at all.
On June 08 2013 05:54 Reborn8u wrote: What a great problem to have. "Some of the massive amount of free content I get from this awesome game, and it's awesome competitive scene, doesn't measure up to my standards".
The pursuit of excellence is one of the few things in this world you can't denounce from any angle. And this criticism was written voluntarily and given freely, same as the content.
For the record, I love you and the free content you produce as well <3 Yes, we should continue to strive for excellence, but I stand by my point. What an awesome problem to have in light of how things were just a few short years ago!
Thanks. I think I've missed your point then. I'm not sure what "an awesome problem to have" is. It just seems like an oxymoron to me.
On June 08 2013 02:38 darthfoley wrote: I actually would enjoy some personalized stats regarding specific players. Too many times do casters just speak of the "race win rate," I would much rather hear about how player X does on map Y or in tournament Z.
Casting has been much improved since the beta, but I still think it would be cool to have stats either before/after (in game there is plenty to look at). I just feel like it would be interesting to note that player X has a 61% WR on map Y even though his race averages 46% in major tournaments (for example).
I thoroughly agree with the rest though. Recaps are DEFINITELY needed, I'm tired of hearing about "nerd chills because their play was AMAZING" 40x per tournament...
I think that SPL does this pretty well and maybe GSL.
I wanted to make this type of post (OP) for the past month. Very well done OP.
I feel that almost all casters nowadays are butchering the hype for the game and make it painfully boring. Same phrases thrown left and right, without anything interesting to say. To me they all sound the same, tell same boring facts and comment things that happen in the game which I can see with my own eyes. I want more. As a fan of SC2, I absolutely demand more, because I think this game is great as a spectacle and deserve better. Give me best observer (I know 3 of them, not more) and I don't need useless rambling of egomaniac caster-wannabes.
On June 08 2013 14:51 Alejandrisha wrote: There's no solution because being good at or knowing anything about the game is not a prerequisite of being a caster. So long as casters gain nothing from actually doing their jobs well, since most viewers don't know the difference anyway, it's not going to get any better. And it hasn't.
Hundred times this. Casters got no incentive at all to improve. They will keep their jobs anyway. At least that's what I think it is. Does not matter if they deliver sub-par experience to the viewer.
Rip a page out of ESPN's book: put the stats and results in a ticker along the bottom while voice is reserved for interesting and more thoughtful comments. This is already done (albeit very sparingly) during parts of some matches, but it works for recap and analysis type shows as well. Do some actual journalism to expose the human element of the games. Did player X go for that all in because he heard his opponent wouldn't be ready for it or was it deliberate misinformation, or even was it a lapse in judgement caused by breaking up with his girlfriend? At the end of the show spend 30 seconds showing the bracket or groups with results on the screen.
On June 11 2013 03:45 MrGh0st wrote: This is pretty much why I have all streams on "Mute" when it comes to watching tournaments.
Here's a few problems with SC2 Casters:
1.) Boy'ish tone
2.) Nasally accent/overhyper "I don't know what I'm talking about so I'll overcompensate with a loud personality" tone.
3.) Absolutely frightening outward appearance. The only exception is Day9.
There are a lot of professional casters in terms of appearance.
Kaldor, Appollo, Artosis, Tasteless etc. I don't think there are a lot of professional casters that look shoddy / unprofessional while casting.
The only place where that happens is probably with the smaller casters that get 100-500 views on their streams, they usually tend to not care about appearance as much.
On June 11 2013 03:45 MrGh0st wrote: This is pretty much why I have all streams on "Mute" when it comes to watching tournaments.
Here's a few problems with SC2 Casters:
1.) Boy'ish tone
2.) Nasally accent/overhyper "I don't know what I'm talking about so I'll overcompensate with a loud personality" tone.
3.) Absolutely frightening outward appearance. The only exception is Day9.
There are a lot of professional casters in terms of appearance.
Kaldor, Appollo, Artosis, Tasteless etc. I don't think there are a lot of professional casters that look shoddy / unprofessional while casting.
The only place where that happens is probably with the smaller casters that get 100-500 views on their streams, they usually tend to not care about appearance as much.
Tbh none of them should care about appearance too much, it's the not caring that makes esports great, stuff like the Artosis/Apollo pokemon collaboration makes my day.
This covers a lot of the complaints about casters and the like but i would also like to add that presentation is a big issue. Major tournament finals being played in what looks like an apartment building is a joke. Anyone tuning into that who is familiar with the scene probably thought it was some amateur tournament. Couple that with really poor sound quality and jut in general strange design choices and it doesn't look good. In some cases having bad and/or unknown casters also doesn't help.
I also hope that one day the scene can get past the whole thing of having massive breaks during tournaments. The 10,20 or 30 minute breaks are already unbearable enough but the massive 2+ hour breaks you see at some tournaments (like WCS) are just straight up hype killers. Who has the time to just sit there for 2 hours waiting for the next series?
It's kind of frustrating that despite the high quality of play in HOTS the quality of the tournaments hasn't really gotten any better.
Great thread. Glad people can put their bias aside and agree that the majority of SC2 casters are very hollow. Makes me wonder if they don't care about SC2 and are just using it as a trampoline to become LoL casters, some of them seem so indifferent to SC2.
I don't think there's a problem with WCS Today itself, as much as it's just a problem of variety. There is definitely a place for a show where you just reel off a string of results and show the key scenes - I mean that's why espn sportscenter is so successful (and it's what WCS today emulates). Sometimes you just wanna have a quick, very simple view of what happened in games and nothing deeper than that.
The problem might be that if that's the ONLY kind of content created, but as a frequent consumer of traditional sports media I don't have a problem with ONE show, WCS Today, being directed the way it is on a base level (of course there's room for more variety, features, and deep segments as time goes along).
Great Thread. I actually think that having the caster become more professional (I don't say "better casters" because it is not really the matter here), is one of the key elements for the Starcraft 2 to get a better audience and most generally speaking, for eSport to have a better credibility. Regarding the statistics, it is SO damn true, stop never ending talks about it. Yes they are important, but it is a minor part of your cast ; most statistics should actually be displayed on the some part of the screen. Actually, think about Tennis were statistic are so important, but are not that commented, just displayed a lot.
What i've been missing the past months is early game analysis. Sometimes i feel like if they switch the production tab to any other tab i'll just be completely lost.
And reading some posts i kinda realized it has to do with early game being the 'hype/stats stage' of the match, and the casters tend to forget about the match itself.
khaldor and wolf are the perfect template to improve when it comes to casters who produce terrible content. they began with the desire to cast at a high level, and improved very quickly after being hired by GOM. the reason for this rapid improvement is that they have an intrinsic motivation to improve. on the topic of a lack of extrinsic motivation being the culprit for terrible content (as the OP pointed out so accurately), even if it were true that your average sc2 watcher doesn't know the difference between a catzpajamas/SNM and an artosis/apollo, that is no justification for staying mediocre at one's craft, year after year. most top companies hire on a combination of personality and qualifications, and the intrinsic desire to better oneself at one's craft, which we see in people like wolfdor, tastosis, apobiscuit, etc.
You need to give examples of good hype when it comes to casting instead of just whining about the casting. Also the analytical casting is very good relative to what it's been in the past. The WCS casting teams each include one pro level player who tells you exactly what he likes about what a certain player just did and it's usually reasonably insightful. Axslav is very smart and EU WCS always has one GM level player or caster casting their events. Artosis when he's engaged is always fun to listen to even if he isn't the most accomplished player (although he's certainly competent).
Casters have hours and hours to fill so they have to use buzzwords and talk about things broadly. I agree some times they go overboard (tasteless is guilty of this -- every single person who loses is "outplayed badly") but what are they supposed to talk about? What suggestions do you have? Which caster does a good job at filling the time and what does he do that's right in your opinion?
I mildly agree on the data point. In some events, I would like a little more info about players -- Elo scores, map scores, their record the past few weeks, etc. To some degree, this sort of information is already provided in Proleague and WCS Korea events, although I would like even a bit more -- the % of builds where a player opens two gate - robo - expand and that build's overall record (e.g.), although I think most people can live without that level of detail so I'm not going to go around pouting and whining about its absence.
To build hype, more player backstories might be nice and WCS america and Europe have done a bunch of player interviews and posted them and proleague has amusing interviews with a bunch of different players, so this issue is being addressed to a certain degree.
Although there is perhaps a grain of truth in some of what you say, your post generally amounts to unjustified whining supported by cherry picked examples. It's also completely unconstructive and would thus seem to be an outlet for whining rather than anything that will ultimately prove helpful.
On June 12 2013 00:17 Sif_ wrote: What i've been missing the past months is early game analysis. Sometimes i feel like if they switch the production tab to any other tab i'll just be completely lost.
And reading some posts i kinda realized it has to do with early game being the 'hype/stats stage' of the match, and the casters tend to forget about the match itself.
Well i can only compare it to how soccer is casted here in Europe and would work in SC2 quite well.
Before the game: Talk about what happened prior to the game, who fought who etc. notable acievements, Players styles etc. (Hyping phase)
During the Game: Talk about the current game, why the Strategy works etc. or which it is not .... -Do not hype, -Do not talk about something is "good" or "bad" -Talk about why something is effective or not effective, working not working, -Do not tell the viewers what the player should do -Try to make cleary why the player tries what he tries -Be aware that you have a maphack, while the player does not!
During Break: Talk about what went wrong, what could have been better, actual situation, possible options and strategys with REAL PLAYERS (Hyping phase)
During the Game Talk about the current game, why the Strategy works etc. or which it is not .... (Do not hype)
End of the Game: Sum it up, finishing thoughts, review of what was said before the game, why it turned out how it turned out Outlook for the next games
Casting teams need to have a solid "casting plan" about how they are going to cast a game, when they can say what, and when they can't.
On June 12 2013 00:26 The_Darkness wrote: Although there is perhaps a grain of truth in some of what you say, your post generally amounts to unjustified whining supported by cherry picked examples.
You seem extremely mad. The OP is a forum poster with a solid opinion that many agree with. Not a scientific researcher paid millions of dollars to discuss the subject of quality casting....nor would this be the place for that anyway.
On June 12 2013 00:28 freetgy wrote: Casting teams need to have a solid "casting plan" about how they are going to cast a game, when they can say what, and when they can't.
Excellent idea, and it doesn't have to be mapped out for every game. A solid template like the one you mentioned would suffice.
Good interviewers/journalists are hard to come by, there are very few throughout any medium in my opinion. This is the easiest, least offensive style of doing an interview/cast/write up, so that's the style a lot of people use.
The bottom line is that if you stick your neck out and actually went about interviews/writeups or whatever with a real critical eye and got to the heart of things, you better be damn near untouchable in the coverage scene because you're going to burn bridges or be that guy people don't want to give an interview to because they're going to be forced to come up with some real shit on the spot and not the standard PR bullshit they get to give all the time. As a result, people will end up looking bad or give out info that the management didn't want out, or what have you.
As a good example I'd point to Joe Rogan of all people. Here's one of the more recent JRE's where he's talking to the guy who makes Bulletproof Coffee.
Skip to about 2:31. The bulletproof guy earlier talked about the unacceptable levels of microtoxins in commercially available coffees and how the EU have made sanctions about the levels of microtoxins in the coffees used there and as a result America gets all the lower quality coffee. Joe is hit with some stats which he kicks out at the guy and despite an attempted defelction of the question by the cohost, Joe goes after the guy and says he has to get his immediate response to those stats. While the Bulletproof guy did have a pretty good response, Joe goes after the issue and doesn't let him get away with PR bullshit and gets to the heart of the issue. Later he goes on to talk about the ethics of talking about his coffee versus other coffees based on lack of research on commercially available coffees. He does all of this while appearing entertaining, and without being outright offensive toward the interviewee.
The problem is, a guy like Joe is a big guy, you know? He's a major respected comedian, and UFC commentator. He doesn't get hurt that much of this guy doesn't really want to come on one of Joe's casts again, but if you're DarkxSlayerx291 or whatever and you're writing small editorials about starcraft, if you probe too deep onto an issue and make Artosis or Day9 or something give an answer that makes them sound bad and they freeze that reporter out, that is a huge blow to him/her (probably a career ending blow). You need to be somewhat established already if you want to be that interviewer (in real media, if you're representing TIME or the New Yorker or whatever, a lot of people can't afford to lose all the coverage that an editorial like that gives them by freezing them out).
I didn't know what I was missing until I read this. I completely agree with the criticism and wish that everybody casting tournament games would read this thread to see what they could improve on. I feel that current StarCraft II casters could learn a lot about what information to present by listening to radio announcers announcing sports games. They are doing the same thing the StarCraft casters are doing, just for a different sport.
I think as a Viewer I can agree that SC2 Casts are missing the criticism that other games might have, barely anyone ever says anything bad against a player, even if he messed up a lot.
On June 12 2013 01:06 domisama wrote: I think as a Viewer I can agree that SC2 Casts are missing the criticism that other games might have, barely anyone ever says anything bad against a player, even if he messed up a lot.
Actually you should never say something bad about a player, you should highlight the mistake and explain why it is. And it is exactly the same for brilliant actions, you absolutely must not tell "OMG HE IS SO AWESOME, he is the best [insert sport] player ever !", but once again highlight the performance itself and why it was brilliant, and maybe explain why other way of doing it would have failed. You have to remain absolutely neutral to either parts and focus on the game and its mechanism itself. You can however congratulate someone for its achievements because it is not judgement, just an assessment of what just happened.
On June 12 2013 00:26 The_Darkness wrote: Although there is perhaps a grain of truth in some of what you say, your post generally amounts to unjustified whining supported by cherry picked examples.
You seem extremely mad. The OP is a forum poster with a solid opinion that many agree with. Not a scientific researcher paid millions of dollars to discuss the subject of quality casting....nor would this be the place for that anyway.
On June 12 2013 00:28 freetgy wrote: Casting teams need to have a solid "casting plan" about how they are going to cast a game, when they can say what, and when they can't.
Excellent idea, and it doesn't have to be mapped out for every game. A solid template like the one you mentioned would suffice.
You found me out. As an official employee of Blizzard (I am actually the COO of Blizzard's Antarctica operations) it is my duty to tell you that Blizzard does not care about the opinions of the great unwashed masses (of which you and the OP form a key part) regarding casters and organizations that are not owned or employed by Blizzard. Now that that is clarified -- if you want to effect change don't you think you should have some clue about what changes casters should make? The OP is just a rambling rant. Say what works. Say what doesn't work and propose a way to fix it, or if you're not sure how to do so, say that.
I had a very long elaborate post that would end our little game, but after reading it back I realized how dull it would make things. Victory, surprisingly can be quite boring.
On June 12 2013 03:32 The_Darkness wrote: Now that that is clarified -- if you want to effect change don't you think you should have some clue about what changes casters should make?
You can't expect the man to do everything alone, he set the mood, certainly a good start! Many posters in this thread have come up with examples and ideas. It's these many hands working together that solve a problem. Don't expect the magic man with the single magical post to reveal both problem and solution in one go. The uh, hmm, balance team knows this quite well, don't they friend.
These discussions come up a lot and seem way too nebulous. There are a lot of great casters, and a lot of great videos being made. But it seems like you'll get one tournament with a caster who people don't like and people act like the community is going to collapse because your brother who you were trying to get into Starcraft said "Boring".
When I watch a large tournament I don't even usually care who the caster is...I usually just care if it's an interesting game at that point. But at the same time, when I go to watch VODs on youtube or SC2Casts there are people who I'll always go back to (Crota, Psy, Madals).
I guess my point is that a lot of organizations seem to be hiring the same exact casters each time (because there are a lot of people casting on the internet, but only a few people doing it as a job where they can drop everything and fly out and cast somewhere). I think that the community needs to support up and coming casters and ask organizations to consider everyone...I'd love for someone to fly Psy out to an event and have him just make fun of some players and not take things too seriously. The key, is not to just cry out stuff like "Well, no Tastosis, who cares"
The OP was good. featuring constructive criticism of some specific videos. I just wish people wouldn't take the attitude of "Blizzard produced a lame video...heh, what idiots, why didn't they post on TL first asking for advice?" The attitude should be "Blizzard produced a lame video....let me take a few of the VODs and make my own that'll be better." or "I know what specifically can be improved upon here"
My last point....don't compare SC2 casters to professional sports casters. Sports casters have 3 producers helping them constantly and 1-2 spotters who are watching EVERYTHING and telling the commentators stuff that they missed. You can watch a cast from home and pick up stuff that the commentator missed, but that doesn't mean that the commentator suddenly sucks.
On June 12 2013 05:22 schmitty9800 wrote: These discussions come up a lot and seem way too nebulous. There are a lot of great casters, and a lot of great videos being made. But it seems like you'll get one tournament with a caster who people don't like and people act like the community is going to collapse because your brother who you were trying to get into Starcraft said "Boring". [...]
Well, if people have been talking about what was written in the op, it wasn't just one tournament and on caster, it was THE tournament and the official coverage video made by Blizzard.
On June 12 2013 05:22 schmitty9800 wrote: These discussions come up a lot and seem way too nebulous. There are a lot of great casters, and a lot of great videos being made. But it seems like you'll get one tournament with a caster who people don't like and people act like the community is going to collapse because your brother who you were trying to get into Starcraft said "Boring". [...]
Well, if people have been talking about what was written in the op, it wasn't just one tournament and on caster, it was THE tournament and the official coverage video made by Blizzard.
Don't get me wrong I liked the OP's criticism, but a lot of people commenting are saying "Well this is the reason I don't watch as much SC2." I really doubt that they were watching WCS, said "Ugh", and then they started watching LoL or Call of Duty.
Most casters don't know what they're doing because most likely none of them actually took a journalism course or whatever course it is that professional commentators take to be able to have such a profession in tv or radio.
I really dislike the fact that the three tournaments for season 2 seem to be "out of synch". Currently the only thing that is happening is WCS AM - challenger league. All three challenger leagues should be on at the same time IMO.
I really hope that season finals will be given to the region with the most sensible climate, i.e. NOT to Korea when they have their super sweaty summer time. That will affect performance of players unused to such extremes. Heating a room is simple, but getting rid of humidity and cooling it takes an effort (and lots of energy).
----------
On June 12 2013 05:49 Apolo wrote: Most casters don't know what they're doing because most likely none of them actually took a journalism course or whatever course it is that professional commentators take to be able to have such a profession in tv or radio.
That is part of the charm of some of them, because "professional journalism" might be lacking in enthusiasm and that would be bad for a cast. Since eSport is a "youth thing" a certain lack of conventions seems a good idea and the overly analytical statisticgathering of the american sports journalists would rather put me off ... because who is interested in the number of rebounds? The same could become true for covering Starcraft ...
On June 12 2013 01:06 domisama wrote: I think as a Viewer I can agree that SC2 Casts are missing the criticism that other games might have, barely anyone ever says anything bad against a player, even if he messed up a lot.
Actually you should never say something bad about a player, you should highlight the mistake and explain why it is. And it is exactly the same for brilliant actions, you absolutely must not tell "OMG HE IS SO AWESOME, he is the best [insert sport] player ever !", but once again highlight the performance itself and why it was brilliant, and maybe explain why other way of doing it would have failed. You have to remain absolutely neutral to either parts and focus on the game and its mechanism itself. You can however congratulate someone for its achievements because it is not judgement, just an assessment of what just happened.
You're absolutely right. A side effect of this is btw that the casters need to know a lot of the game or otherwise they wouldn't be able to do that.
This is one of the reasons why MLG, for example, is so tough to watch. The commentators actually kill it for me. Most of your criticisms have one thing in common: SEVERE INSINCERITY. Sometimes it's more fun to watch non-serious games (or even POOR quality games) when you have a caster that has both knowledge and light-hearted approach. This is why "la-la-la" things like IPL Fight Club were entertaining to me (and TLS Qualifiers... Too soon? D: )
Yeah it's clear that "hyping" should be done in collaboration with people that actually know something about the freaking players. But I don't really hate the emphasis of poor hyping. Did you watch the Eastern Conference Finals? They hyped the Pacers sooo freaking hard as both a method to create interest and the series and basically excuse the Heat for dragging their feet as always vs a grossly inferior opponent, and to not look like complete morons as analysts in the possible even that the Heat would actually lose the series. Going into the playoffs, not one soul picked the Pacers for reach the finals, so by the time the passed through and threatened, every heat fan and heat hater was like, "Oh. Yeah! The Pacer's are really good, guys. I'm serious! That's the ticket. The heat are still the team to beat, but oh man, watch out for this overachieving mediocre team!"
This is why when when a slaughter match is upon us (like, foreigner vs Bogus), they force themselves to say shit like, "Oh, so-and-so is the best zerg in all of Russia!"
On June 13 2013 05:02 Waxangel wrote: why is this thread about casting now
It has been about that since the beginning (problem #2 in the OP) ... and people have talked about their preferred casting style or caster behaviour.
I used one example from actual live casting. Everything else was about content around the games. The problems pertain casters as well, but most of the stuff is about content producers in general.
I never lost a word about whether play-by-play or analytical casting is the best or if casters must be good in the game or not. Most of that stuff has been talked to death already.
Why do we need Casters at all? I would like to think we're all intelligent enough to be able to look at a stream and go "Hey, that guy is building a barracks. Now he's building a Reaper. Heeeyyy he's going to open reaper harass!"
Why do we need vocally offensive manchildren to shout it into a Mic? I've never understood the concept. And, from what Iv'e gathered from everyone's posts here, these "Casters" don't even know the game, let alone understand it..
On June 14 2013 05:39 MrGh0st wrote: Why do we need Casters at all? I would like to think we're all intelligent enough to be able to look at a stream and go "Hey, that guy is building a barracks. Now he's building a Reaper. Heeeyyy he's going to open reaper harass!"
Why do we need vocally offensive manchildren to shout it into a Mic? I've never understood the concept. And, from what Iv'e gathered from everyone's posts here, these "Casters" don't even know the game, let alone understand it..
I just wasn't excited for WCS at all to be honest. I started watching it from the start, skipped the middle, except innovation,flash,parting,life group haha. And then I just sorta stopped caring as the season went on. I don't know why.
On June 14 2013 05:39 MrGh0st wrote: Why do we need Casters at all? I would like to think we're all intelligent enough to be able to look at a stream and go "Hey, that guy is building a barracks. Now he's building a Reaper. Heeeyyy he's going to open reaper harass!"
Why do we need vocally offensive manchildren to shout it into a Mic? I've never understood the concept. And, from what Iv'e gathered from everyone's posts here, these "Casters" don't even know the game, let alone understand it..
Truly magnificent.
The OP makes some excellent points about the scene over the last while.
I would agree that more information about the games would be nice in the coverage instead of just stats and saying "This guy is just SO good" but at the same time there are so many games in such a small amount of time that analyzing every single one of them wouldn't be very relevant because three days after it happened we don't really care so much. Goes back to the over saturation in the game's broadcasting.
It's funny. Ever since WCS took over I just haven't really cared to watch. Yes the players are still good and stuff, but for some reason, I don't feel like dedicating time to watch anymore. Maybe it's because the WCS was just so underwelming at least from the NA side of things.
On June 14 2013 05:39 MrGh0st wrote: Why do we need Casters at all? I would like to think we're all intelligent enough to be able to look at a stream and go "Hey, that guy is building a barracks. Now he's building a Reaper. Heeeyyy he's going to open reaper harass!"
Why do we need vocally offensive manchildren to shout it into a Mic? I've never understood the concept. And, from what Iv'e gathered from everyone's posts here, these "Casters" don't even know the game, let alone understand it..
Trolling at its finest
Actually I was being serious
I don't understand why these Casters have a place in competitive gaming. My question is along the lines of "Why do I need someone telling me whats happening on a screen when I'm clearly able to see it myself"?
On June 14 2013 05:39 MrGh0st wrote: Why do we need Casters at all? I would like to think we're all intelligent enough to be able to look at a stream and go "Hey, that guy is building a barracks. Now he's building a Reaper. Heeeyyy he's going to open reaper harass!"
Why do we need vocally offensive manchildren to shout it into a Mic? I've never understood the concept. And, from what Iv'e gathered from everyone's posts here, these "Casters" don't even know the game, let alone understand it..
Trolling at its finest
Actually I was being serious
I don't understand why these Casters have a place in competitive gaming. My question is along the lines of "Why do I need someone telling me whats happening on a screen when I'm clearly able to see it myself"?
I kind of agree actually. With the GSL i like artosis and tasteless because they spend very little time actually talking about the game, and to me the real caster is ST_Legend, who generally misses, like, nothing. Tastosis is just some mildy amusing background noise while the starcraft happens.
Lots of people really like it when an informed player like idra commentates a tournament, and (excuse my rampant elitism) i would love to see tournaments have a stream for the bronzies with the "fun" casters and a stream with a player who knows about the game, but doesnt do all the shouting and instead just provides some extra insight for the people who actually play the game on a regular basis.
On June 14 2013 05:39 MrGh0st wrote: Why do we need Casters at all? I would like to think we're all intelligent enough to be able to look at a stream and go "Hey, that guy is building a barracks. Now he's building a Reaper. Heeeyyy he's going to open reaper harass!"
Why do we need vocally offensive manchildren to shout it into a Mic? I've never understood the concept. And, from what Iv'e gathered from everyone's posts here, these "Casters" don't even know the game, let alone understand it..
When i listen to a caster i want to feel excitment when it is due (not a random storm / forcefield and call it "awesome" "soo good" etc. People are not that stupid, we can feel when it is insincere or forced) and also to have a deeper understanding of what is going on. My noob strategy and knowledge of starcraft is not enough to comprehend the deep levels of thinking these pros are using in the game, so i hope caster will shed a light on that. I also like to hear statistics about the player, the maps, information about the venue, predictions based on them, and so on.
We provide a service that some like, and some dislike. It is up to casters to make the stats relevant, although we try to help them out with good presentation, search options etc.
Thanks for taking a dump on the massive amount of work we do, free of charge with no ads on the site though.
Also lol at saying we know nothing about the game, I probably watch more starcraft after joining than I ever did before.
On June 15 2013 01:08 Grovbolle wrote: We provide a service that some like, and some dislike. It is up to casters to make the stats relevant, although we try to help them out with good presentation, search options etc.
Thanks for taking a dump on the massive amount of work we do, free of charge with no ads on the site though.
Also lol at saying we know nothing about the game, I probably watch more starcraft after joining than I ever did before.
This is absolutely not what I wanted to say. I love what you guys are doing. The criticism was on how the stats are used by content producers.
The "know nothing about the game" part isn't about you guys that are involved, it's about the statistical methodology. If I am not mistaken, your data points are only about who wins against who with what result on what map when. And you categorize the "who" in race and nationality. It doesn't argue about which build is best against a particular player, how the different styles of the players match up against another etc., which is way more faulty and subjective, but also more fun! This is nothing against the very powerful statistical approach you are taking. It is about that coverage should go beyond that.
On June 08 2013 02:50 BronzeKnee wrote: Idra is one of my favorite casters due to these problems in OP. It also why I enjoy Artosis and Tasteless.
And this goes back to bringing in E-Sports personalities who know nothing about the game. How many times have we seen "pretty" female hosts do interviews that are totally devoid of substance simply because they know nothing about SC2?
It is sad that the major organizations choose to hire from outside of the SC2 scene just for good looks or a nice voice.
A bit strange you mention Tasteless as someone you enjoy because you agree with the criticisms in the OP when he probably is the epitome of the examples listed in OP.
On June 14 2013 05:39 MrGh0st wrote: Why do we need Casters at all? I would like to think we're all intelligent enough to be able to look at a stream and go "Hey, that guy is building a barracks. Now he's building a Reaper. Heeeyyy he's going to open reaper harass!"
Why do we need vocally offensive manchildren to shout it into a Mic? I've never understood the concept. And, from what Iv'e gathered from everyone's posts here, these "Casters" don't even know the game, let alone understand it..
Trolling at its finest
Actually I was being serious
I don't understand why these Casters have a place in competitive gaming. My question is along the lines of "Why do I need someone telling me whats happening on a screen when I'm clearly able to see it myself"?
i've been thinking about this for a while. at least a cast with minimal talking. just a very good observer and some one to note any deviations from standard play.
like people have been saying, the casters will never improve because they have no incentive to. it wasn't more than a few months ago that jorosar yelled on stream because a player with carriers was 'wasting' his interceptors on larva. and people still hire him