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You like a zersg being destroyed in Korea?
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On August 01 2013 09:55 VVeForever wrote: You like a zersg being destroyed in Korea?
It's out of 100 game. If you take out Symbol/Maru and Soulkey/Innovation, it's 50/50 TvZ
And PvZ just blame on PvProLeague lol
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On August 01 2013 09:56 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:55 VVeForever wrote: You like a zersg being destroyed in Korea? It's out of 100 game. If you take out Symbol/Maru and Soulkey/Innovation, it's 50/50 TvZ And PvZ just blame on PvProLeague lol
The image displaying games played per MU shows at least 150 games played, and Symbol/Maru + Innovation/ Soulkey are only T and Z....so that doesn't address the protoss romping everybody.
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On August 01 2013 10:01 Sephiren wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 09:56 ragz_gt wrote:On August 01 2013 09:55 VVeForever wrote: You like a zersg being destroyed in Korea? It's out of 100 game. If you take out Symbol/Maru and Soulkey/Innovation, it's 50/50 TvZ And PvZ just blame on PvProLeague lol The image displaying games played per MU shows at least 150 games played, and Symbol/Maru + Innovation/ Soulkey are only T and Z....so that doesn't address the protoss romping everybody.
How? You can clearly see all 3 matchup are below 100 line... With about 65~ ZvP played
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I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from.
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On August 01 2013 10:03 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:01 Sephiren wrote:On August 01 2013 09:56 ragz_gt wrote:On August 01 2013 09:55 VVeForever wrote: You like a zersg being destroyed in Korea? It's out of 100 game. If you take out Symbol/Maru and Soulkey/Innovation, it's 50/50 TvZ And PvZ just blame on PvProLeague lol The image displaying games played per MU shows at least 150 games played, and Symbol/Maru + Innovation/ Soulkey are only T and Z....so that doesn't address the protoss romping everybody. How? You can clearly see all 3 matchup are below 100 line... With about 65~ ZvP played
The lowest of 3 MU's is ZvP which is clearly greater than half of 100 (looks about 60). So even if the others were as low as that, we have 60 + 60 + 60 = 180. Obviously you can eyeball that it's probably more like 200-210.
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Since there are so few games played for korean match ups, if there are no patches for august can we take the results from august and july to get a better sample size? Or does it become invalid because of the time difference between the months?
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Mothership core needs minor nerf so zerg can counter attack in early game. Terran has a unit for everything. Hydra really needs a buff.
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On August 01 2013 10:08 reps)squishy wrote: Mothership core needs minor nerf so zerg can counter attack in early game. Terran has a unit for everything. Hydra really needs a buff. Give it a good bit longer first lol
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On August 01 2013 10:06 Sephiren wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:03 ragz_gt wrote:On August 01 2013 10:01 Sephiren wrote:On August 01 2013 09:56 ragz_gt wrote:On August 01 2013 09:55 VVeForever wrote: You like a zersg being destroyed in Korea? It's out of 100 game. If you take out Symbol/Maru and Soulkey/Innovation, it's 50/50 TvZ And PvZ just blame on PvProLeague lol The image displaying games played per MU shows at least 150 games played, and Symbol/Maru + Innovation/ Soulkey are only T and Z....so that doesn't address the protoss romping everybody. How? You can clearly see all 3 matchup are below 100 line... With about 65~ ZvP played The lowest of 3 MU's is ZvP which is clearly greater than half of 100 (looks about 60). So even if the others were as low as that, we have 60 + 60 + 60 = 180. Obviously you can eyeball that it's probably more like 200-210.
Obviously I meant per matchup, not total, as the TvZ calculation suggest.
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On August 01 2013 10:07 bo1b wrote: Since there are so few games played for korean match ups, if there are no patches for august can we take the results from august and july to get a better sample size? Or does it become invalid because of the time difference between the months?
You can do whatever you want, it's just numbers, it can't be invalid.
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On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from.
It's most likely due to Zergs being able to take maps against Terrans, but not series. I don't honestly remember the last time in the GSL/OSL a Zerg beat a Terran in a best of series where the Terran wasn't completely outmatched. Like Life vs. jjakji, Life will win that every time unless the game is terribly imbalanced. But it's not. I feel like there's just the slightest advantage for Terran right now, and that's all you really need at that level of play.
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Zerg, according to that graph, isn't doing well, but I think it's definitely an overstatement. We had some really good TvZ series this month, and it's [the poor percentage of wins] not gone on long enough to warrant any freak outs. Though it undoubtedly will.
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Wow! Can't wait to see all those protoss champions!! .................................
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not sure if trolling or.... OP has no source, a single post with 2 pictures which anyone can make, plus this
David Kim: I don't think there is balance problem right now, and I don't think Zerg is weak at the moment. For example, the recent Dreamhack had a ZvZ finals. Also, WCS S1 Korea Regional Final had a ZvT finals and the Zerg won (Soulkey vs Innovation). In terms of ladder's data, Zerg actually has a little advantage right now.
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On August 01 2013 10:54 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. It's most likely due to Zergs being able to take maps against Terrans, but not series. I don't honestly remember the last time in the GSL/OSL a Zerg beat a Terran in a best of series where the Terran wasn't completely outmatched. Like Life vs. jjakji, Life will win that every time unless the game is terribly imbalanced. But it's not. I feel like there's just the slightest advantage for Terran right now, and that's all you really need at that level of play.
The thing is speaking strictly about the OSL they won the exact same number of maps but a lot of those occurred in the early group stage. But then you see the massive effect that just 7 games can have on such a small sample size.
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On August 01 2013 11:10 Porishan wrote:not sure if trolling or.... OP has no source, a single post with 2 pictures which anyone can make, plus this Show nested quote +David Kim: I don't think there is balance problem right now, and I don't think Zerg is weak at the moment. For example, the recent Dreamhack had a ZvZ finals. Also, WCS S1 Korea Regional Final had a ZvT finals and the Zerg won (Soulkey vs Innovation). In terms of ladder's data, Zerg actually has a little advantage right now.
Apologies. Check the edit for the information. And no this isn't a troll :D
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This is about what it felt like watching the games. I know it's not a huge sample size, but as Terran's get better at holding All-ins, I think they will win even more and eventually Z will be buffed (instead of T nerfed).
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On August 01 2013 11:15 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 11:10 Porishan wrote:not sure if trolling or.... OP has no source, a single post with 2 pictures which anyone can make, plus this David Kim: I don't think there is balance problem right now, and I don't think Zerg is weak at the moment. For example, the recent Dreamhack had a ZvZ finals. Also, WCS S1 Korea Regional Final had a ZvT finals and the Zerg won (Soulkey vs Innovation). In terms of ladder's data, Zerg actually has a little advantage right now. Apologies. Check the edit for the information. And no this isn't a troll :D yay! get it now xD
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On August 01 2013 10:08 reps)squishy wrote: Mothership core needs minor nerf so zerg can counter attack in early game. Terran has a unit for everything. Hydra really needs a buff.
lol, this is just for July. Msc already moves too slow, and gaining 100 energy for a cannon is already slow too.
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I know there's small sample, but this poster thinks zerg are a little UP.
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On August 01 2013 11:38 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:08 reps)squishy wrote: Mothership core needs minor nerf so zerg can counter attack in early game. Terran has a unit for everything. Hydra really needs a buff. lol, this is just for July. Msc already moves too slow, and gaining 100 energy for a cannon is already slow too.
I hope thats some sort of sick joke
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On August 01 2013 11:38 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:08 reps)squishy wrote: Mothership core needs minor nerf so zerg can counter attack in early game. Terran has a unit for everything. Hydra really needs a buff. lol, this is just for July. Msc already moves too slow, and gaining 100 energy for a cannon is already slow too.
You make it sound like it's underpowered lol.
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On August 01 2013 11:38 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:08 reps)squishy wrote: Mothership core needs minor nerf so zerg can counter attack in early game. Terran has a unit for everything. Hydra really needs a buff. lol, this is just for July. Msc already moves too slow, and gaining 100 energy for a cannon is already slow too. Yea they should spawn with full energy, the speed of phoenix and have collosi lazors.
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On August 01 2013 12:14 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 11:38 shin_toss wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 reps)squishy wrote: Mothership core needs minor nerf so zerg can counter attack in early game. Terran has a unit for everything. Hydra really needs a buff. lol, this is just for July. Msc already moves too slow, and gaining 100 energy for a cannon is already slow too. Yea they should spawn with full energy, the speed of phoenix and have collosi lazors. also need the hp of a real mothership
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Ouch@Korean TvZ. Told you we should have asked for nerfs when we still had a say.
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On August 01 2013 12:15 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 12:14 Assirra wrote:On August 01 2013 11:38 shin_toss wrote:On August 01 2013 10:08 reps)squishy wrote: Mothership core needs minor nerf so zerg can counter attack in early game. Terran has a unit for everything. Hydra really needs a buff. lol, this is just for July. Msc already moves too slow, and gaining 100 energy for a cannon is already slow too. Yea they should spawn with full energy, the speed of phoenix and have collosi lazors. also need the hp of a real mothership & cloaking field
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On August 01 2013 12:31 pmp10 wrote: Ouch@Korean TvZ. Told you we should have asked for nerfs when we still had a say.
Damn it, sorry we should've listened to you when it was still time D:
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zerg hasnt the highest winrate, this threads gonna be 3 times longer than last months
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On August 01 2013 12:41 teddyoojo wrote: zerg hasnt the highest winrate, this threads gonna be 3 times longer than last months All the terrans are going "Wait, we are winning. I'm not winning. Quickly, team meeting folks, we need to develop a response to this. I think we go with the APM excuse, Innovation and build order wins. That should do it till next month"
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On August 01 2013 12:36 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 12:31 pmp10 wrote: Ouch@Korean TvZ. Told you we should have asked for nerfs when we still had a say. Damn it, sorry we should've listened to you when it was still time D: This isn't funny. If Blizzard and zergs get to fixing this we may lose another unit.
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Innovation and Flash destroyed TvZ winrate lol
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On August 01 2013 14:42 tuho12345 wrote: Innovation and Flash destroyed TvZ winrate lol When the number of games is around 80, i guess they had something to do with it.
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Holy crap. That KR PvZ win % lol Wasn't expecting that.
Edit: 3333 posts!!!
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I feel like when professional level win rates are show people say "oh it's not a good representation because (insert gosu Koreans here) skew the statistics;" but then once they're shown statistics without the gosu Koreans they say they aren't relevant because they lack the best players. xP
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Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments.
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Game is pretty well balanced. Winrates fluctuates people, when it stays between 45-55 range, there's nothing to be alarmed off...
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On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac
On August 01 2013 15:05 Grovbolle wrote:For reference: TvZ: 51.5% (1394 games) PvT: 50.8% (1326 games) PvZ: 48.5% (1717 games) From http://aligulac.com/reports
I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more.
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Also, his data representation skills are pretty terrible. Leaves a lot to wish for.
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On August 01 2013 15:05 Grovbolle wrote:For reference: TvZ: 51.5% (1394 games) PvT: 50.8% (1326 games) PvZ: 48.5% (1717 games) From http://aligulac.com/reports This should be in the OP.
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Obviously Zerg hasn't been doing very well as of late but it's only a month we'll have to see if this keeps going. I think with the recent change given to terran the big concern is PvZ now. I think the new maps should help.
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On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. all the assets? yea what asset is available at lair tech to fight against bio terran? ZvP has utilize both swarmhosts and speed hydra and viper
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On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more.
A lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats because its the only thing available to them. You cannot expect zerg to go swarmhosts against a non-meching terran, or even ling/infestor with how many undeserved nerfs the infestor took.
All that is left is either muta/ling bane to stop these mass marine/widow mine pushes from terran and hope you can delay for ultra, or hydra/roach (which is terrible as it makes you weaker in the late game). You want zerg to move on from wol strats? Give zerg some better options.
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They should have left the baneling burrow move in! :D
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On August 01 2013 15:21 Za7oX wrote: They should have left the baneling burrow move in! :D
Oh god, don't even remind me this existed..
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On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more.
lol shows how much you pay attention to zerg. In zvt, I have tried swarmhosts a lot, and if you go swarmhosts drop play murders you. If you go ling/infestor you get crushed by bio/mine because infestors aren't as good as they used to be.
Like you act like we zergs are just sticking to wol strats, no if that were true we would be doing ling/infestor into bl/corr/infestor. No zergs are experimenting and trying other stuff, but non muta play in zvt makes zvt a lot harder.
zvp you see lots of zerg uses with vipers/swarmhosts/mutalisks/etc. Like I don't think you know what you are talkinga bout.
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On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more.
This is precisely the response I would expect from an ignorant non-Z-player. Your 'argument' is predictable; expected, really; lazy, grossly overused, and just plain wrong and, quite frankly, an insult to top-end KR Z-players.
Tell me, when was the last time a Z won a macro game vT in OSL/GS(T)L/SPL?
Spectators of top-end SC2 who've never played, must wonder why anyone in their right mind would ever want to play Z.
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Zerg being the "reactionary race atm.," will always result in Zerg being unfavoured whenever new strats come up and being favoured, when there's not. + Korean Zerg has never been the greatest of innovators except maybe Leenock and a few others, so might take them awhile to come up with new stuff, if it's even necessary.
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On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from.
I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread:
"Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1".
Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...).
You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced
Welcome to the zerg world
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On August 01 2013 15:39 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world because when fruitdealer won the first GSL the game was balanced.
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On August 01 2013 15:43 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:39 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world because when fruitdealer won the first GSL the game was balanced.
It is not about one player anymore, the last 4 tournaments I listed were won by Hyun, Revival, Snute and Life, that is four different guys.
Also, there are many ways to do stats, I like my own little ro8 premier tournaments participation summary: (foreiner number in the brackets).
Enjoy:
P T Z ------------------------------ WCS S1 KR 2(0) 2(0) 4(0) IEM 7 WC 4(1) 2(0) 2(1) MLG winter 3(0) 4(0) 1(0) WCS EU s1 3(1) 4(2) 1(3) DH STKHML 2(1) 1(0) 5(1) WCS US S1 3(0) 2(0) 3(2) WCS S1 F 2(0) 4(0) 2(0) DHS 1(0) 3(2) 4(1) HSC 2(0) 1(0) 5(3) MLG Spring 4(1) 2(0) 2(0) DHV 3(1) 1(1) 4(1) IEM SH 3(0) 2(0) 3(0) ------------------------------ total 32(5) 28(5) 36(12)
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On August 01 2013 15:39 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world
^ Welcome to ignorance.
When will people realize that foreign tourneys with lackluster player pools are irrelevant (I suppose, unfortunately, not so long as the consideration of such frivolous stats favors their race because they're shamelessly biased)? Also, we shouldn't just be examining win/loss ratios superficially; but also the nature of said wins/losses. "Don't worry guys, ZvT is balanced, Z just have to Roach/Bling bust to win." Except, in this case, at the top-end, the winrates aren't even balanced, rendering your 'argument' as even more invalid.
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Not sure how to percieve these stats.
Korean stats, although a statistically acceptable numbet of games, its still too small and "corrupted" from individual results.
As for the international stats, i cant take them seriously as alot are simply complete mismatches or just evenly matched terible players (relative to the top performers) duking out ladder quality games.
Rather id like to see some analysis done on how often and to what success each race is utilising new mechanics and units from the expansion. Might shine some light as to what exactly has changed statistically from wol games
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On August 01 2013 15:53 F.O.A.D. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:39 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world ^ Welcome to ignorance. When will people realize that foreign tourneys with lackluster player pools are irrelevant (I suppose, unfortunately, not so long as the consideration of such frivolous stats favors their race because they're shamelessly biased)? Also, we shouldn't just be examining win/loss ratios superficially; but also the nature of said wins/losses. "Don't worry guys, ZvT is balanced, Z just have to Roach/Bling bust to win." Except, in this case, at the top-end, the winrates aren't even balanced, rendering your 'argument' as even more invalid.
Sorry, but I'm watching all these crap foreign premier tournaments as they are responsible for most of my SC2 spectator experience. So I'm going to leave them in.
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On August 01 2013 15:39 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world Erm, if top zerg outnumber top terran in the tournaments then to factor in the 4:1 ratio you would go the other way, no? So itd be more like: T:8 Z:2 P:2?
I am not saying I even come close to agreeing with you, but your method seems off.
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I think the game is very well balanced. Some timings are killing zergs, but as in WoL, its just a matter of time before zerg find a solution to most of Hots timings that could kill them.
Just look at the 3 Stargate voidray tactic. Do we see it often nowadays ? Not really.
As zerg, i'm find with the current state of the game (mmmmh... rr well, not with the 1gate expand into 4 gates MsC but its probably because i'm bad :D)
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On August 01 2013 16:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:39 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world Erm, if top zerg outnumber top terran in the tournaments then to factor in the 4:1 ratio you would go the other way, no? So itd be more like: T:8 Z:2 P:2? I am not saying I even come close to agreeing with you, but your method seems off.
Let's say there are 10 tournaments and the only good players participating in each of them are Soulkey, Hyun, Revival, Jeadong and Polt.
I would expect the zergs to take 8 of them and Polt taking 2 max. Otherwise the zerg is UP
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On August 01 2013 16:06 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 16:02 TheRabidDeer wrote:On August 01 2013 15:39 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world Erm, if top zerg outnumber top terran in the tournaments then to factor in the 4:1 ratio you would go the other way, no? So itd be more like: T:8 Z:2 P:2? I am not saying I even come close to agreeing with you, but your method seems off. Let's say there are 10 tournaments and the only good players participating in each of them are Soulkey, Hyun, Revival, Jeadong and Polt. I would expect the zergs to take 8 of them and Polt taking 2 max. Otherwise the zerg is UP I think I see what youre doing, and that seems hilariously wrong.
T:2 Z:8 P:2 is the expected result, but T:5, Z:5, P:2 is the actual result. The expected result assuming a 4:1 ratio would actually indicate "balance". Technically. There are 4 times as many top zergs, so their odds (feels like the wrong word to use here) are 4 times as high. Though there is a lot of stuff that mixes into it, like protoss and mirror matchups and all kinds of other stuff. The fact that terrans have indeed won as many as zerg is slightly alarming in truth, one would expect more protoss wins.
EDIT: It really is late :\
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On August 01 2013 10:54 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. It's most likely due to Zergs being able to take maps against Terrans, but not series. I don't honestly remember the last time in the GSL/OSL a Zerg beat a Terran in a best of series where the Terran wasn't completely outmatched. Like Life vs. jjakji, Life will win that every time unless the game is terribly imbalanced. But it's not. I feel like there's just the slightest advantage for Terran right now, and that's all you really need at that level of play.
Hyvaa > Fantasy 2-1 July 11th KangHo > Maru 2-0 July 18th
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On August 01 2013 15:05 Grovbolle wrote:For reference: TvZ: 51.5% (1394 games) PvT: 50.8% (1326 games) PvZ: 48.5% (1717 games) From http://aligulac.com/reports At least this contains a decent sample size. I'm no probability expert but around 100 games for a matchup like in the OP does not seem very reliable. Mind you it's games, not matches (at least in the OP, don't know about Aligulac). One guy can have a pretty decent influence if he plays a couple Best-of-X series. If INnoVation destroys a couple weak Zergs 3-0 / 3-1 then in no time he just contributed 10%+ to the TvZ number which will be skewed heavily in Terran's favor. Of course this can also happen the other way around (Zerg defeating inferior Terrans), both of which back up the claim that a low sample size is not stable or representative.
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TvZ is so incredibly in T's favor that I expect the percentage to be even worse next month. But I am surprised about ZvP. All these issues could be resolved by making Hydralisk a decent unit.
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Not looking good for the zergs, not much of an surprise. What is kind of surprising that P does better against zerg than terran. I consider terran to be stronger in that matchup. Might just be the usual variance though.
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United Kingdom20159 Posts
A few players can influence results a lot, confidence intervals(?) are very important for even looking at stats i think
If you say Zerg has a 60% win ratio against terran for example with 100% confidence, it means they'd win 3 out of every 5 games and it would not be possible for them to lose a best of 5, likewise you only need 4/7 (57.14%) to be guaranteed to win a best of 7, and obviously that doesn't happen so unless there's a wild imbalance in overall ratio's, so much is down to individual players, and confidence intervals are pretty much everything
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korean zergs. what happened?
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I think when you talk about tournaments and stuff, you should point out that more people play zerg because as the defensive, late game oriented race, some might say it is "easier" to play. this means more people play zerg, but with the recent buffs to the other races (AKA HOTS) we are having the opposite of the "patchzerg" effect, or zerg winrates going down, even though at the highest level zergs are still preforming well. And as always zergs are winning more because there is more of them. I honestly think that there is at least 40% zerg players if not almost 50%
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well...as expected. even if you mix this winrates with aligulac you see something is very wrong with zerg in 5 months of HOTS now. many many people waited for zerg to finally get fixed in HOTS beta...they fixed T in a huge buff patch, fixed P continuously...zerg got nothing. after realizing that blizz introduced useless hatchtech burrow and ovispeed lol.
they seriously need to take a look at zerg. infestor was overnerfed, hydras just faster...still the 100% same bad unit oncreep, BLs now useless with bigger maps, worse infestors and new ravens/tempests, SHs really bad vs bio, viper blinding cloud bad vs mobile armies (so basically ever P army: stalker or air units or HT, abduct better for colossus, useless vs MMMM). even in ZvZ hydras suck and are only made viable with spores made into a superhardcounter to mutas.
that leaves zerg with roach ling bane muta....every game with obv some exceptions like roach hydra viper AI ZvP or outplaying T in midgame and be able to get ultras + infestors out somehow without losing mutas.
not to mention non-muta compositions arent able to harrass....at all. really hope DK ment ovidrop, nydus and burrow movement with "they take a look into zerg mechanics/stuff".
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On August 01 2013 16:25 dani` wrote:At least this contains a decent sample size. I'm no probability expert but around 100 games for a matchup like in the OP does not seem very reliable. Mind you it's games, not matches (at least in the OP, don't know about Aligulac). One guy can have a pretty decent influence if he plays a couple Best-of-X series. If INnoVation destroys a couple weak Zergs 3-0 / 3-1 then in no time he just contributed 10%+ to the TvZ number which will be skewed heavily in Terran's favor. Of course this can also happen the other way around (Zerg defeating inferior Terrans), both of which back up the claim that a low sample size is not stable or representative. In Aliguliac Games = One map in a BoX Matches = Series, Be it Bo1, Bo3, Bo5 etc.
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On August 01 2013 15:26 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote:On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac On August 01 2013 15:05 Grovbolle wrote:For reference: TvZ: 51.5% (1394 games) PvT: 50.8% (1326 games) PvZ: 48.5% (1717 games) From http://aligulac.com/reports I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. lol shows how much you pay attention to zerg. In zvt, I have tried swarmhosts a lot, and if you go swarmhosts drop play murders you. If you go ling/infestor you get crushed by bio/mine because infestors aren't as good as they used to be. Like you act like we zergs are just sticking to wol strats, no if that were true we would be doing ling/infestor into bl/corr/infestor. No zergs are experimenting and trying other stuff, but non muta play in zvt makes zvt a lot harder. This +99999999999.
You basically need to get mutas out in ZvT unless you're facing a more "traditional" mech (no hellbats, therefore, no medivacs). Otherwise, you just die to drops. Consequently, throwing down a spire and building mutas is almost like pressing the pause button on your build; the tech that you need to finish the game with is delayed.
Incidentally, vs mech is really the only scenario where zerg has the opportunity to depart from the norm, barring all-ins.
ZvT is a horrible MU to play.
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I don't really have anything to contribute to the thread itself, but it's turning out to be a pile of shit anyway! ;P
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I hate zerg...but It scares me when they get stomped this badly at the pro level. Any more buffs for zergies and us mere mortals in diamond and below will keep getting smashed!!
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Rofl I love all the people trying to defend zergs low winrate with "Oh just take out these two matches where zerg gets destroyed and it's fine!" as if that is okay.
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Before more Zerg whining, please look at the July Premier Tournament results:
IEM Shanghai - 1st Revival
DreamHack Valencia - 1st HyuN, 2nd Jaedong, 3rd Goswser.
Definitely reflected in these graphs.
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On August 01 2013 16:27 ReMinD_ wrote: TvZ is so incredibly in T's favor that I expect the percentage to be even worse next month. But I am surprised about ZvP. All these issues could be resolved by making Hydralisk a decent unit.
If you take a bigger sample size you will notice how close the numbers are. Sorry, but you are not getting your 70% zvt WOL winrate back. Blizzard will NEVER make the same mistake.
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On August 01 2013 17:50 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 16:27 ReMinD_ wrote: TvZ is so incredibly in T's favor that I expect the percentage to be even worse next month. But I am surprised about ZvP. All these issues could be resolved by making Hydralisk a decent unit. If you take a bigger sample size you will notice how close the numbers are. Sorry, but you are not getting your 70% zvt WOL winrate back. Blizzard will NEVER make the same mistake.
you are embarrassing yourself with posting lies like zvt was 70% in wol. even last GSL in WoL was 61% while now we have over 70% in OSL for T (both very small sample sizes). just stop posting lies like this, its getting annoying.
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Where can I find the winrates since the release of hots?
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On August 01 2013 17:53 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 17:50 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 16:27 ReMinD_ wrote: TvZ is so incredibly in T's favor that I expect the percentage to be even worse next month. But I am surprised about ZvP. All these issues could be resolved by making Hydralisk a decent unit. If you take a bigger sample size you will notice how close the numbers are. Sorry, but you are not getting your 70% zvt WOL winrate back. Blizzard will NEVER make the same mistake. you are embarrassing yourself with posting lies like zvt was 70% in wol. even last GSL in WoL was 61% while now we have over 70% in OSL for T (both very small sample sizes). just stop posting lies like this, its getting annoying.
Stop acting like zvt is t favoured. You just want your 60% winrate back, and it's really not going to happen. Blizzard listened once to people like you (queenbuff) and we all knew what happened.
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On August 01 2013 18:13 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 17:53 Decendos wrote:On August 01 2013 17:50 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 16:27 ReMinD_ wrote: TvZ is so incredibly in T's favor that I expect the percentage to be even worse next month. But I am surprised about ZvP. All these issues could be resolved by making Hydralisk a decent unit. If you take a bigger sample size you will notice how close the numbers are. Sorry, but you are not getting your 70% zvt WOL winrate back. Blizzard will NEVER make the same mistake. you are embarrassing yourself with posting lies like zvt was 70% in wol. even last GSL in WoL was 61% while now we have over 70% in OSL for T (both very small sample sizes). just stop posting lies like this, its getting annoying. Stop acting like zvt is t favoured. You just want your 60% winrate back, and it's really not going to happen. Blizzard listened once to people like you (queenbuff) and we all knew what happened.
1 post later its 60%? we are getting there. in fact it was 55-58%. but you are getting closer.
and i dont act like ZvT is T favored. it is T favored since 5 months now. thats facts and those arent my facts but aligulac or just liquipedia facts which everybody can look up. i have a feeling you are still so mad at ZvT in the end of WoL (zergs arent mad at beginning of WoL with 60%+ winrates for T with supereasy strats like 2 rax or 5 rax reaper so maybe you should stop being mad too and acknowledge facts). HOTS is a completely new game and yes TvZ is T favored.
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On August 01 2013 18:19 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 18:13 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 17:53 Decendos wrote:On August 01 2013 17:50 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 16:27 ReMinD_ wrote: TvZ is so incredibly in T's favor that I expect the percentage to be even worse next month. But I am surprised about ZvP. All these issues could be resolved by making Hydralisk a decent unit. If you take a bigger sample size you will notice how close the numbers are. Sorry, but you are not getting your 70% zvt WOL winrate back. Blizzard will NEVER make the same mistake. you are embarrassing yourself with posting lies like zvt was 70% in wol. even last GSL in WoL was 61% while now we have over 70% in OSL for T (both very small sample sizes). just stop posting lies like this, its getting annoying. Stop acting like zvt is t favoured. You just want your 60% winrate back, and it's really not going to happen. Blizzard listened once to people like you (queenbuff) and we all knew what happened. 1 post later its 60%? we are getting there. in fact it was 55-58%. but you are getting closer. and i dont act like ZvT is T favored. it is T favored since 5 months now. thats facts and those arent my facts but aligulac or just liquipedia facts which everybody can look up. i have a feeling you are still so mad at ZvT in the end of WoL (zergs arent mad at beginning of WoL with 60%+ winrates for T with supereasy strats like 2 rax or 5 rax reaper so maybe you should stop being mad too and acknowledge facts). HOTS is a completely new game and yes TvZ is T favored.
I told 70%, then you replied that it was 61%, so I take over what you say --> you complain. TvZ is balanced as hell. The difference with WOL is that you now actually need to put the same effort in the game as the terran. And that hurts, I get that. But to cry that it's terran favoured because you can't 1a anymore, is just ridicilous.
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On August 01 2013 18:25 Snowbear wrote: The difference with WOL is that you now actually need to put the same effort in the game as the terran.
have you ever played tvz? Marine tank is much harder than MMMM
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On August 01 2013 18:25 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 18:19 Decendos wrote:On August 01 2013 18:13 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 17:53 Decendos wrote:On August 01 2013 17:50 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 16:27 ReMinD_ wrote: TvZ is so incredibly in T's favor that I expect the percentage to be even worse next month. But I am surprised about ZvP. All these issues could be resolved by making Hydralisk a decent unit. If you take a bigger sample size you will notice how close the numbers are. Sorry, but you are not getting your 70% zvt WOL winrate back. Blizzard will NEVER make the same mistake. you are embarrassing yourself with posting lies like zvt was 70% in wol. even last GSL in WoL was 61% while now we have over 70% in OSL for T (both very small sample sizes). just stop posting lies like this, its getting annoying. Stop acting like zvt is t favoured. You just want your 60% winrate back, and it's really not going to happen. Blizzard listened once to people like you (queenbuff) and we all knew what happened. 1 post later its 60%? we are getting there. in fact it was 55-58%. but you are getting closer. and i dont act like ZvT is T favored. it is T favored since 5 months now. thats facts and those arent my facts but aligulac or just liquipedia facts which everybody can look up. i have a feeling you are still so mad at ZvT in the end of WoL (zergs arent mad at beginning of WoL with 60%+ winrates for T with supereasy strats like 2 rax or 5 rax reaper so maybe you should stop being mad too and acknowledge facts). HOTS is a completely new game and yes TvZ is T favored. I told 70%, then you replied that it was 61%, so I take over what you say --> you complain. TvZ is balanced as hell. The difference with WOL is that you now actually need to put the same effort in the game as the terran. And that hurts, I get that. But to cry that it's terran favoured because you can't 1a anymore, is just ridicilous.
and again you are embarrassing yourself :D
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On August 01 2013 18:12 graNite wrote: Where can I find the winrates since the release of hots? Split up by month: http://aligulac.com/reports
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On August 01 2013 18:27 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 18:25 Snowbear wrote: The difference with WOL is that you now actually need to put the same effort in the game as the terran. have you ever played tvz? Marine tank is much harder than MMMM
Marine tank = siege, targetfire banelings, stim & split.
Marine mine = burrow, targetfire, make sure you don't hit own marines, split.
Marine tank is actually easier than marine mine. It's not like you just have to burrow and than watch everything blow up. You need good targetfires.
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On August 01 2013 18:33 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 18:27 graNite wrote:On August 01 2013 18:25 Snowbear wrote: The difference with WOL is that you now actually need to put the same effort in the game as the terran. have you ever played tvz? Marine tank is much harder than MMMM Marine tank = siege, targetfire banelings, stim & split. Marine mine = burrow, targetfire, make sure you don't hit own marines, split. Marine tank is actually easier than marine mine. It's not like you just have to burrow and than watch everything blow up. You need good targetfires. what?? getting out with a marine tank army to the opponent is already way harder to do. using drops to mislocate their army positioning etc. protecting the tanks against muta harass etc dealing with counter attacks was much harder as well
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On August 01 2013 18:39 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 18:33 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 18:27 graNite wrote:On August 01 2013 18:25 Snowbear wrote: The difference with WOL is that you now actually need to put the same effort in the game as the terran. have you ever played tvz? Marine tank is much harder than MMMM Marine tank = siege, targetfire banelings, stim & split. Marine mine = burrow, targetfire, make sure you don't hit own marines, split. Marine tank is actually easier than marine mine. It's not like you just have to burrow and than watch everything blow up. You need good targetfires. what?? getting out with a marine tank army to the opponent is already way harder to do. using drops to mislocate their army positioning etc. protecting the tanks against muta harass etc dealing with counter attacks was much harder as well
Mines run faster than your army, so you need to protect them vs muta's too. With tanks you select all your tanks, siege, then shift right click the banelings. That doesn't work with mines: you need to target fire with each of them.
About the counter attacks: that's true. But controlling marine mine is really not easier than controlling marine tank.
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On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. Mothership core is main thing people are complaining about in Korea right now (Z+T); I don't think any Zergs really feel there's an issue with ZvT
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I am actually surprised over the tvp winrate, I guess my experiences with tvp in diamond is nothing like how it is at pro level :p
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I must say, for myself I found ways to pressure protoss in a macro game enough, to get it to end in midgame often enough to have an okay winrate vs them at the moment. But the lategame issue remains (since the ghost nerf ^^) and I wonder how long it will take for protoss to adapt to this midgame agression. (and that's what we see in terran won pro TvPs too)
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At first I thought this thread was about July's win rates was disappointed
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On August 01 2013 19:25 Meatex wrote:At first I thought this thread was about July's win rates was disappointed
Nope just the usual balance whiners battling out in another thread instead of the designated thread assigned to them.
Interesting stats mind you, it will be intersting to see if Zergs can adapt or not
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On August 01 2013 15:26 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote:On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac On August 01 2013 15:05 Grovbolle wrote:For reference: TvZ: 51.5% (1394 games) PvT: 50.8% (1326 games) PvZ: 48.5% (1717 games) From http://aligulac.com/reports I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. lol shows how much you pay attention to zerg. In zvt, I have tried swarmhosts a lot, and if you go swarmhosts drop play murders you. If you go ling/infestor you get crushed by bio/mine because infestors aren't as good as they used to be. Like you act like we zergs are just sticking to wol strats, no if that were true we would be doing ling/infestor into bl/corr/infestor. No zergs are experimenting and trying other stuff, but non muta play in zvt makes zvt a lot harder. zvp you see lots of zerg uses with vipers/swarmhosts/mutalisks/etc. Like I don't think you know what you are talkinga bout.
Quick to get on with the balance whining aren't we? ^^ I can't help but notice when Zerg was overpowered for like the last 6-9 months of WoL or so that on your post signet you had something like "balance whining should not exist on team liquid". More like you do not want balance whining when its not in your favour. I only mention this as I see you posting in just about every thread in the last few years on tl..
Not that I have a problem with balance whining, every should feel free to express themselves, but hypocrites just annoy the fuck out of me.
On topic, looks pretty good apart from ZvT in Korea. Will be interesting to see how that match up devolpos over there in the next few months.
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On August 01 2013 19:51 Swift118 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:26 blade55555 wrote:On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote:On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac On August 01 2013 15:05 Grovbolle wrote:For reference: TvZ: 51.5% (1394 games) PvT: 50.8% (1326 games) PvZ: 48.5% (1717 games) From http://aligulac.com/reports I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. lol shows how much you pay attention to zerg. In zvt, I have tried swarmhosts a lot, and if you go swarmhosts drop play murders you. If you go ling/infestor you get crushed by bio/mine because infestors aren't as good as they used to be. Like you act like we zergs are just sticking to wol strats, no if that were true we would be doing ling/infestor into bl/corr/infestor. No zergs are experimenting and trying other stuff, but non muta play in zvt makes zvt a lot harder. zvp you see lots of zerg uses with vipers/swarmhosts/mutalisks/etc. Like I don't think you know what you are talkinga bout. Quick to get on with the balance whining aren't we? ^^ I can't help but notice when Zerg was overpowered for like the last 6-9 months of WoL or so that on your post signet you had something like "balance whining should not exist on team liquid". More like you do not want balance whining when its not in your favour. I only mention this as I see you posting in just about every thread in the last few years on tl.. Not that I have a problem with balance whining, every should feel free to express themselves, but hypocrites just annoy the fuck out of me. On topic, looks pretty good apart from ZvT in Korea. Will be interesting to see how that match up devolpos over there in the next few months. Might want to read the quote before you accuse someone of balance whining
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On August 01 2013 18:58 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 18:39 ETisME wrote:On August 01 2013 18:33 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 18:27 graNite wrote:On August 01 2013 18:25 Snowbear wrote: The difference with WOL is that you now actually need to put the same effort in the game as the terran. have you ever played tvz? Marine tank is much harder than MMMM Marine tank = siege, targetfire banelings, stim & split. Marine mine = burrow, targetfire, make sure you don't hit own marines, split. Marine tank is actually easier than marine mine. It's not like you just have to burrow and than watch everything blow up. You need good targetfires. what?? getting out with a marine tank army to the opponent is already way harder to do. using drops to mislocate their army positioning etc. protecting the tanks against muta harass etc dealing with counter attacks was much harder as well Mines run faster than your army, so you need to protect them vs muta's too. With tanks you select all your tanks, siege, then shift right click the banelings. That doesn't work with mines: you need to target fire with each of them. About the counter attacks: that's true. But controlling marine mine is really not easier than controlling marine tank.
naw dog using tanks was insanely hard, if you lost your tanks, you where just fucked for the rest of the game, so you always had to make battle plans and position your army well, with mines its just like yolo to their third base.
Tank play was always about drawing the army away, getting into the right spot, kiting marines while targeting banes, and then once things got really close, you had to decide to use your tanks as meat shields for your marines or just fight it out and let the tanks do the damage.
mines are just so much easier when it comes into battle, as long as you have them spread a little you just have to burrow, they do the rest by just zoning.
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On August 01 2013 19:54 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 19:51 Swift118 wrote:On August 01 2013 15:26 blade55555 wrote:On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote:On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac On August 01 2013 15:05 Grovbolle wrote:For reference: TvZ: 51.5% (1394 games) PvT: 50.8% (1326 games) PvZ: 48.5% (1717 games) From http://aligulac.com/reports I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. lol shows how much you pay attention to zerg. In zvt, I have tried swarmhosts a lot, and if you go swarmhosts drop play murders you. If you go ling/infestor you get crushed by bio/mine because infestors aren't as good as they used to be. Like you act like we zergs are just sticking to wol strats, no if that were true we would be doing ling/infestor into bl/corr/infestor. No zergs are experimenting and trying other stuff, but non muta play in zvt makes zvt a lot harder. zvp you see lots of zerg uses with vipers/swarmhosts/mutalisks/etc. Like I don't think you know what you are talkinga bout. Quick to get on with the balance whining aren't we? ^^ I can't help but notice when Zerg was overpowered for like the last 6-9 months of WoL or so that on your post signet you had something like "balance whining should not exist on team liquid". More like you do not want balance whining when its not in your favour. I only mention this as I see you posting in just about every thread in the last few years on tl.. Not that I have a problem with balance whining, every should feel free to express themselves, but hypocrites just annoy the fuck out of me. On topic, looks pretty good apart from ZvT in Korea. Will be interesting to see how that match up devolpos over there in the next few months. Might want to read the quote before you accuse someone of balance whining
Maybe this is not the first post from this person I am talking about as in another thread I read today he is giving off some Terran win rates and basically saying that they are overpowered in a sarcastic manner. They are just threads that I happened to read today so I can only assume this is going on a fair bit.
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On August 01 2013 18:39 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 18:33 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 18:27 graNite wrote:On August 01 2013 18:25 Snowbear wrote: The difference with WOL is that you now actually need to put the same effort in the game as the terran. have you ever played tvz? Marine tank is much harder than MMMM Marine tank = siege, targetfire banelings, stim & split. Marine mine = burrow, targetfire, make sure you don't hit own marines, split. Marine tank is actually easier than marine mine. It's not like you just have to burrow and than watch everything blow up. You need good targetfires. what?? getting out with a marine tank army to the opponent is already way harder to do. using drops to mislocate their army positioning etc. protecting the tanks against muta harass etc dealing with counter attacks was much harder as well I find widow mine bio harder to execute properly than biomech in tvz.
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On August 01 2013 20:19 Swift118 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 19:54 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 19:51 Swift118 wrote:On August 01 2013 15:26 blade55555 wrote:On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote:On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac On August 01 2013 15:05 Grovbolle wrote:For reference: TvZ: 51.5% (1394 games) PvT: 50.8% (1326 games) PvZ: 48.5% (1717 games) From http://aligulac.com/reports I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. lol shows how much you pay attention to zerg. In zvt, I have tried swarmhosts a lot, and if you go swarmhosts drop play murders you. If you go ling/infestor you get crushed by bio/mine because infestors aren't as good as they used to be. Like you act like we zergs are just sticking to wol strats, no if that were true we would be doing ling/infestor into bl/corr/infestor. No zergs are experimenting and trying other stuff, but non muta play in zvt makes zvt a lot harder. zvp you see lots of zerg uses with vipers/swarmhosts/mutalisks/etc. Like I don't think you know what you are talkinga bout. Quick to get on with the balance whining aren't we? ^^ I can't help but notice when Zerg was overpowered for like the last 6-9 months of WoL or so that on your post signet you had something like "balance whining should not exist on team liquid". More like you do not want balance whining when its not in your favour. I only mention this as I see you posting in just about every thread in the last few years on tl.. Not that I have a problem with balance whining, every should feel free to express themselves, but hypocrites just annoy the fuck out of me. On topic, looks pretty good apart from ZvT in Korea. Will be interesting to see how that match up devolpos over there in the next few months. Might want to read the quote before you accuse someone of balance whining Maybe this is not the first post from this person I am talking about as in another thread I read today he is giving off some Terran win rates and basically saying that they are overpowered in a sarcastic manner. They are just threads that I happened to read today so I can only assume this is going on a fair bit.
"from this person" shows how little you realize who you're talking about.
Blade is one of the biggest contributors to the TL forums, and yes, he plays Zerg, and he does it well. He puts together tons of guides and often participates in fruitful discussions on how to play better, experiment with less popular units and is generally a huge boon to this community.
And you come in here trying to act like he's some nobody crying about balance. If you want to argue things are fine, go ahead, but don't start accusing people of being balance whiners when they're pointing out that things are not fine.
I agree with Blade, Zerg is UP again. SH are the slowest unit in the game, Infestors are actually worse than they were on release of WOL at this point, Corruptors have always sucked, Hydras are still usually not worth using, and Vipers have proven to be lackluster. I am not ready to cry imba just yet, but these stats don't surprise me at all.
Claiming that Zergs aren't using all their options sounds like arguments back at the release of WOL, and it has all the same causes. Zerg options are there, but they suck.
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why do you use 500 on the y-axis if all the bars have less than 100 games?
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Also, we shouldn't just be examining win/loss ratios superficially; but also the nature of said wins/losses This.
Whats relevant is :
- The highest level
(to the point that the Korea winrates, even if they are established on a small sample basis, are more relevant than the 6000 + games of aligulac) Im not saying PvZ and TvZ are broken, but it definitely says : either Z is UP or Z progamers are bad / playing the wrong metagame.
- The winrate on standard games which is even lower. Again, could also mean that zerg players didnt find the right metagame yet..
The better tool we have right now is time and seeing how the metagame evolves.
I personnaly think that Blizzard left us a really raw game with HoTs which needed A LOT OF changes. I was surprised the game wasnt patch at the beginning, now Im less surprised because I understand BLizzard philosophy : letting the metagame evolve during long period of time before patching.
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Dat Korean ZvP graph... at least the international percentages are pretty close. Perhaps there's just a shift in the meta game in Korea that the Zergs are having a tough time with right now. It'll be interesting to see if this trend continues.
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I think the old zerg mechanics don't work anymore ... even so I'm a terran player I recognize the fact that zergs army is very lack luster at this point.... I don't know what the answer is but when I see zerg in the que against me I see an ez win T.T
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And meanwhile i struggle with an UNDER 20% winrate in tvz ... I don't understand
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On August 01 2013 18:33 Snowbear wrote:
Marine tank = siege, targetfire banelings, stim & split.
Marine mine = burrow, targetfire, make sure you don't hit own marines, split.
Marine tank is actually easier than marine mine. It's not like you just have to burrow and than watch everything blow up. You need good targetfires.
Not going to go into the micro details, im not a GM terran player. But you need to take into account the cost-efficiency of mines and that mines reinforcement comes faster. When you play marine tank and you loose all your tanks your in deep trouble while you can afford to loose mines. It gives you some kind of "freedom of movement", hence easier. When you see marine tank play you see strategical waves of pushes.When you see marine mines you see rally pushing... the latter is really easier.
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The thing for the Korean numbers is that the sample size is even smaller than usual. Also the bad Korean numbers for Zerg comes from the online IEM qualifier and team leagues, the OSL ZvP was even. It will be interesting if this translates to struggles in Zerg for the next GSL.
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On August 01 2013 21:18 v_lm wrote: - The highest level
(to the point that the Korea winrates, even if they are established on a small sample basis, are more relevant than the 6000 + games of aligulac) Im not saying PvZ and TvZ are broken, but it definitely says : either Z is UP or Z progamers are bad / playing the wrong metagame.
Well, this is the thing that may be important for you and other highest-level-starcraft fans. Blizzard does not see it that way and this is no wonder - they take a look at the big picture not a tiny highest-level snippet.
And the big picture does include all premier tournaments played all over the world as this is what people actually watch. In the big picture the zerg is performing well. Yes, maybe they have to work hard for it, maybe they need to do dull things like rlb or mlb every single time. But they do get the results, you know, they win the important stuff, like the DH, IEM, RSL V and Red Bull Batlleground to list a few of recent zerg results.
Even if it is only WCS KR that matters then a strong reaction after a single season where the zerg underperformed there seems a little bit hasty. After all, they won every single GSL Code S since 2012 Season 4 that started in August 2012. And look, it is August 2013.
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On August 01 2013 21:52 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:18 v_lm wrote: - The highest level
(to the point that the Korea winrates, even if they are established on a small sample basis, are more relevant than the 6000 + games of aligulac) Im not saying PvZ and TvZ are broken, but it definitely says : either Z is UP or Z progamers are bad / playing the wrong metagame. Well, this is the thing that may be important for you and other highest-level-starcraft fans. Blizzard does not see it that way and this is no wonder - they take a look at the big picture not a tiny highest-level snippet. And the big picture does include all premier tournaments played all over the world as this is what people actually watch. In the big picture the zerg is performing well. Yes, maybe they have to work hard for it, maybe they need to do dull things like rlb or mlb every single time. But they do get the results, you know, they win the important stuff, like the DH, IEM, RSL V and Red Bull Batlleground to list a few of recent zerg results. Even if it is only WCS KR that matters then a strong reaction after a single season where the zerg underperformed there seems a little bit hasty. After all, they won every single GSL Code S since 2012 Season 4 that started in August 2012. And look, it is August 2013. While I don't think tvz is horrendously imbalanced, the way your arguing is pretty horrible. Wol balance shouldn't have anything to do with hots balance, rsl v dh and iem were stupidly zerg heavy at the top end, and the line up of red bull battleground is just not the same as "highest level".
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On August 01 2013 21:58 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:52 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 21:18 v_lm wrote: - The highest level
(to the point that the Korea winrates, even if they are established on a small sample basis, are more relevant than the 6000 + games of aligulac) Im not saying PvZ and TvZ are broken, but it definitely says : either Z is UP or Z progamers are bad / playing the wrong metagame. Well, this is the thing that may be important for you and other highest-level-starcraft fans. Blizzard does not see it that way and this is no wonder - they take a look at the big picture not a tiny highest-level snippet. And the big picture does include all premier tournaments played all over the world as this is what people actually watch. In the big picture the zerg is performing well. Yes, maybe they have to work hard for it, maybe they need to do dull things like rlb or mlb every single time. But they do get the results, you know, they win the important stuff, like the DH, IEM, RSL V and Red Bull Batlleground to list a few of recent zerg results. Even if it is only WCS KR that matters then a strong reaction after a single season where the zerg underperformed there seems a little bit hasty. After all, they won every single GSL Code S since 2012 Season 4 that started in August 2012. And look, it is August 2013. While I don't think tvz is horrendously imbalanced, the way your arguing is pretty horrible. Wol balance shouldn't have anything to do with hots balance, rsl v dh and iem were stupidly zerg heavy at the top end, and the line up of red bull battleground is just not the same as "highest level".
WoL balance only shows how used to the idea of winning everything the zergies are. It took that much time for them to actually lose in KR and snap! the whining becomes unbearable just-like-that.
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On August 01 2013 22:04 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:58 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 21:52 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 21:18 v_lm wrote: - The highest level
(to the point that the Korea winrates, even if they are established on a small sample basis, are more relevant than the 6000 + games of aligulac) Im not saying PvZ and TvZ are broken, but it definitely says : either Z is UP or Z progamers are bad / playing the wrong metagame. Well, this is the thing that may be important for you and other highest-level-starcraft fans. Blizzard does not see it that way and this is no wonder - they take a look at the big picture not a tiny highest-level snippet. And the big picture does include all premier tournaments played all over the world as this is what people actually watch. In the big picture the zerg is performing well. Yes, maybe they have to work hard for it, maybe they need to do dull things like rlb or mlb every single time. But they do get the results, you know, they win the important stuff, like the DH, IEM, RSL V and Red Bull Batlleground to list a few of recent zerg results. Even if it is only WCS KR that matters then a strong reaction after a single season where the zerg underperformed there seems a little bit hasty. After all, they won every single GSL Code S since 2012 Season 4 that started in August 2012. And look, it is August 2013. While I don't think tvz is horrendously imbalanced, the way your arguing is pretty horrible. Wol balance shouldn't have anything to do with hots balance, rsl v dh and iem were stupidly zerg heavy at the top end, and the line up of red bull battleground is just not the same as "highest level". WoL balance only shows how used to the idea of winning everything the zergies are. It took that much time for them to actually lose in KR and snap! the whining becomes unbearable just-like-that. In fairness, terran was stupidly broken for a good percentage of time in korea, and now zerg is getting shit on in wcs proleague and gstl.
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On August 01 2013 21:32 v_lm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 18:33 Snowbear wrote:
Marine tank = siege, targetfire banelings, stim & split.
Marine mine = burrow, targetfire, make sure you don't hit own marines, split.
Marine tank is actually easier than marine mine. It's not like you just have to burrow and than watch everything blow up. You need good targetfires. Not going to go into the micro details, im not a GM terran player. But you need to take into account the cost-efficiency of mines and that mines reinforcement comes faster. When you play marine tank and you loose all your tanks your in deep trouble while you can afford to loose mines. It gives you some kind of "freedom of movement", hence easier. When you see marine tank play you see strategical waves of pushes.When you see marine mines you see rally pushing... the latter is really easier. ?? Parade pushes are way more demanding.
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On August 01 2013 22:04 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 21:58 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 21:52 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 21:18 v_lm wrote: - The highest level
(to the point that the Korea winrates, even if they are established on a small sample basis, are more relevant than the 6000 + games of aligulac) Im not saying PvZ and TvZ are broken, but it definitely says : either Z is UP or Z progamers are bad / playing the wrong metagame. Well, this is the thing that may be important for you and other highest-level-starcraft fans. Blizzard does not see it that way and this is no wonder - they take a look at the big picture not a tiny highest-level snippet. And the big picture does include all premier tournaments played all over the world as this is what people actually watch. In the big picture the zerg is performing well. Yes, maybe they have to work hard for it, maybe they need to do dull things like rlb or mlb every single time. But they do get the results, you know, they win the important stuff, like the DH, IEM, RSL V and Red Bull Batlleground to list a few of recent zerg results. Even if it is only WCS KR that matters then a strong reaction after a single season where the zerg underperformed there seems a little bit hasty. After all, they won every single GSL Code S since 2012 Season 4 that started in August 2012. And look, it is August 2013. While I don't think tvz is horrendously imbalanced, the way your arguing is pretty horrible. Wol balance shouldn't have anything to do with hots balance, rsl v dh and iem were stupidly zerg heavy at the top end, and the line up of red bull battleground is just not the same as "highest level". WoL balance only shows how used to the idea of winning everything the zergies are. It took that much time for them to actually lose in KR and snap! the whining becomes unbearable just-like-that.
Meh, we are not really whining. Just last month, zerg had edges in the winrate for both tvz and pvz. Next month in might swing our way again, who can say?
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Zerg seems to be getting its ass kicked a little o.O Terran seems to be on the winning side of both its non-mirror match-ups, although its not as pronounced as Zerg losing. Seems the meta changed from really close balance to a little off :/
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On August 01 2013 22:42 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 22:04 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 21:58 bo1b wrote:On August 01 2013 21:52 scypio wrote:On August 01 2013 21:18 v_lm wrote: - The highest level
(to the point that the Korea winrates, even if they are established on a small sample basis, are more relevant than the 6000 + games of aligulac) Im not saying PvZ and TvZ are broken, but it definitely says : either Z is UP or Z progamers are bad / playing the wrong metagame. Well, this is the thing that may be important for you and other highest-level-starcraft fans. Blizzard does not see it that way and this is no wonder - they take a look at the big picture not a tiny highest-level snippet. And the big picture does include all premier tournaments played all over the world as this is what people actually watch. In the big picture the zerg is performing well. Yes, maybe they have to work hard for it, maybe they need to do dull things like rlb or mlb every single time. But they do get the results, you know, they win the important stuff, like the DH, IEM, RSL V and Red Bull Batlleground to list a few of recent zerg results. Even if it is only WCS KR that matters then a strong reaction after a single season where the zerg underperformed there seems a little bit hasty. After all, they won every single GSL Code S since 2012 Season 4 that started in August 2012. And look, it is August 2013. While I don't think tvz is horrendously imbalanced, the way your arguing is pretty horrible. Wol balance shouldn't have anything to do with hots balance, rsl v dh and iem were stupidly zerg heavy at the top end, and the line up of red bull battleground is just not the same as "highest level". WoL balance only shows how used to the idea of winning everything the zergies are. It took that much time for them to actually lose in KR and snap! the whining becomes unbearable just-like-that. Meh, we are not really whining. Just last month, zerg had edges in the winrate for both tvz and pvz. Next month in might swing our way again, who can say?
You kind of need to look a little in the game itself to answer this question. Historically the strength of bio mine in TvZ has been questionable since the beta of HoTS and early release of HoTS. I even rembember Life saying, when he won the first MlG after having baneling bust his way to the final that he believed that mines were still too strong so this discusssion has always been around to say the least. The thing is, since the release of HoTS, there was not a lot of win coming from zerg going macro game. The last two month, we saw a lot variation of old build, like roach all in, roach baneling 1/1, roach drops, roach nyddus but none of this as been an issue in WoL and none of these build are especially new, they just fit pretty well in the metagame with terran defending 3CC with mines instead of tank in WoL, but eventually it was just a matter of time before terran build are refined to deal with these all in and I think it's what we see now.
From my point of view, up to now, the core issue about how to trade against bio mines with a ling based army hasn't been found yet (if there is any), zerg has been avoiding this issue by doing all in and it worked for a time, but now they are kind of figured out and zerg are kind of back to early HoTS situation.
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Widow mined used correctly are too strong against Zergs on most maps, but I don't think they should be nerfed, simply because they're definitely not too strong against Protoss and Terran. Instead, give a mid-late game buff to the Zerg units that get destroyed by widow mines: Zerglings and Banelings. Maybe increase the speed boost given by the baneling speed upgrade, on and off creep. And make the crackling upgrade increase movement speed as well.
If these units move faster, they can get in range of marines more easily before the mines blow up, and thus the mines will do splash damage to the Terran as well.
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I think more Zergs would win in ZvP if they played Stephano style, with mass swarmhosts + static defense. The problem is, that playstyle is super boring, both to play and to watch.
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On August 02 2013 02:06 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think more Zergs would win in ZvP if they played Stephano style, with mass swarmhosts + static defense. The problem is, that playstyle is super boring, both to play and to watch.
I'm not sure Stephano's success isn't only due to the fact he's playing inferior opponents, but yea it does seem super strong when he does it, but when other people do it... just not that great.
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On August 02 2013 02:44 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:06 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think more Zergs would win in ZvP if they played Stephano style, with mass swarmhosts + static defense. The problem is, that playstyle is super boring, both to play and to watch. I'm not sure Stephano's success isn't only due to the fact he's playing inferior opponents, but yea it does seem super strong when he does it, but when other people do it... just not that great.
I haven't really seen anyone else play with the patience Stephano does. With that sort of playstyle, you really have to be ready and willing to take every game to an hour or more, and most players are understandably uninterested in playing hourlong turtlefest after hourlong turtlefest, regardless of how effective it is. Its the same reason no one else played mech the way Goody did in WoL, because even when he won, there was no fun in it for either players or spectators.
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On August 02 2013 02:44 sibs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:06 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think more Zergs would win in ZvP if they played Stephano style, with mass swarmhosts + static defense. The problem is, that playstyle is super boring, both to play and to watch. I'm not sure Stephano's success isn't only due to the fact he's playing inferior opponents, but yea it does seem super strong when he does it, but when other people do it... just not that great.
Inferior opponents like MC, Hero and Alicia right
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On August 02 2013 02:54 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:44 sibs wrote:On August 02 2013 02:06 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think more Zergs would win in ZvP if they played Stephano style, with mass swarmhosts + static defense. The problem is, that playstyle is super boring, both to play and to watch. I'm not sure Stephano's success isn't only due to the fact he's playing inferior opponents, but yea it does seem super strong when he does it, but when other people do it... just not that great. Inferior opponents like MC, Hero and Alicia right
You really think MC is any good these days?
Thats the only player he played out of MC Hero Alicia, also Stephano is known for having world class ZvP, he had the best ZvP in the world arguably back in WoL.
http://aligulac.com/players/10/results/?after=&before=&race=p&nats=all&bo=all&offline=both&game=HotS
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TvZ is fine, Terran just happens to have the 2 of the worlds best players, flash and innovation that make it look unbalanced because they're so insanely good at it. Korean tvz sample size is so small that there is no balance issue if you remove their stats. PvZ on the other hand looks a little suspect. Honestly though I'd give it more time for strategies to play out, late game pvz looks fun and interesting and well balanced, while zerg early tier units just seem so useless in pvz.
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On August 02 2013 02:52 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 02:44 sibs wrote:On August 02 2013 02:06 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think more Zergs would win in ZvP if they played Stephano style, with mass swarmhosts + static defense. The problem is, that playstyle is super boring, both to play and to watch. I'm not sure Stephano's success isn't only due to the fact he's playing inferior opponents, but yea it does seem super strong when he does it, but when other people do it... just not that great. I haven't really seen anyone else play with the patience Stephano does. With that sort of playstyle, you really have to be ready and willing to take every game to an hour or more, and most players are understandably uninterested in playing hourlong turtlefest after hourlong turtlefest, regardless of how effective it is. Its the same reason no one else played mech the way Goody did in WoL, because even when he won, there was no fun in it for either players or spectators.
No one played Mech the way Goody did in WoL because it wasn't good. If it really was an effective way to nearly guarantee a win, many more players would have flocked to it.
Has nothing to do with keeping games entertaining for spectators. This notion that players have an obligation to keep games interesting is bullshit. Are we to expect them to self-edit their play to make sure it's entertaining more so than able to win? They get paid for results, not interesting games. Players are not and should not be inhibited in what they can do in a game because of the arbitrary whims of an audience. The game should naturally be entertaining regardless of what they do. If something is boring, it's on Blizzard to fix it, not the players to avoid it.
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Why aren't WCG qualifirs included for Korea. Why you randomly cut half of the results of IEM qualifiers. You realize that with bigger sample size you get more accurate results? For example TvZ is 52% in Korea when including whole IEM and whole WCG and sample sieze is like 3 times bigger.
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According to the stats, it would seem that zerg could use a minor buff. The question is, why are the winrates so bad, what is killing the zerg? Can someone elaborate?
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On August 02 2013 03:51 keglu wrote: Why aren't WCG qualifirs included for Korea. Why you randomly cut half of the results of IEM qualifiers. You realize that with bigger sample size you get more accurate results? For example TvZ is 52% in Korea when including whole IEM and whole WCG and sample sieze is like 3 times bigger.
This is happening for some time. People just cut some results, so their race get's a lower winrate.
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On August 02 2013 03:54 Uni1987 wrote: According to the stats, it would seem that zerg could use a minor buff. The question is, why are the winrates so bad, what is killing the zerg? Can someone elaborate?
1) The sample size is too low. They actually cut some games of the list. Why? So their race has a lower winrate. 2) Innovation and flash are both just destroying zergs.
Take a look at the top 50 korean gm ladder and check the winrates of each terran. You will notice that there is no tvz imbalance atm.
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they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2.
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On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2.
They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back.
No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL?
Also, which one is your account? http://www.sc2ranks.com/search/hots/global/1v1/all/all/exact/Vestige
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On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL?
great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff.
dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane.
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On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Give this guy a cookie, for the most nonsense balance whine in almost every thread.
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On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane.
Stephano destroyed CODE S terrans at the end of WOL with roach hydra. Now terrans go mines instead of tanks. Mines are way worse against roach hydra than tanks. So why for gods sake would you buff hydras??? Because it gives you another allin against terran? Like there aren't enough busts atm? How many allins do terrans have against zerg? If stephano could bust code S terrans with roach hydra in WOL, than it should be also possible in HOTS. And a buff to the hydra would just be ridicilous.
Your race doesn't need a buff. Take a look at this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leagues , and then look me in the eye and ask for a buff again. What do you want? WOL zerg domination? Do you want to see jhonnyreco destroy innovation? Is the list not red enough for you? Do you realise how biased and arrogant it is to ask for a buff while your race is actually doing very well? Or is the TLPD list lying too?
The stats show a perfectly balanced game (52% IS balanced). Okay, it's much worse when you randomly cut games from the list, but if you take all korean topgames, you end up with 52%.
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On August 02 2013 04:16 WeRRa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Give this guy a cookie, for the most nonsense balance whine in almost every thread.
since hydras are fine yeah? since we see so much hydraplay vs bio...oh wait. love when people start talking bad about people just because they are out of arguments against their arguments.
@snowbear: yeah clearly stephano doing roach hydra vs helion banshee opening shows that roach hydra with new super speedboost makes them viable. /sarcasm. this is HOTS. stop talking about WoL. you are living in the past. NOTHING from WoL matters for balance right now. nobody cares about 5 rax reaper being imba or queen patch being bad or roach hydra being viable vs helion banshee opening (which btw still might be viable but not vs the other openings).
for one thing you are right. all roach hydra in ZvT can do is a 2 2 all in. if that doesnt do significant damage its gg for T. Z needs more MACRO strats and comps, not more all in. at least there we agree. but yeah maybe the viper buff will make roach hydra finally be viable in a macro game.
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On August 02 2013 04:21 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:16 WeRRa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Give this guy a cookie, for the most nonsense balance whine in almost every thread. since hydras are fine yeah? since we see so much hydraplay vs bio...oh wait. love when people start talking bad about people just because they are out of arguments against their arguments.
The worst player in the world can get into WCS Premier EU ro16 playing roach hydra. Just how bad are you if you can't pull it off?
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On August 02 2013 04:07 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 03:54 Uni1987 wrote: According to the stats, it would seem that zerg could use a minor buff. The question is, why are the winrates so bad, what is killing the zerg? Can someone elaborate? 1) The sample size is too low. They actually cut some games of the list. Why? So their race has a lower winrate. 2) Innovation and flash are both just destroying zergs. Take a look at the top 50 korean gm ladder and check the winrates of each terran. You will notice that there is no tvz imbalance atm.
This really, the sample size is just too low to say too much about it even if it does look like zergs are at a disadvantage. It could be that most players just aren't utilizing the race as much. Zerg usually thrives in the end game and maybe they're dieing too much against midgame pushes or something and haven't figured out a good way to counter it.
I'm just getting back into game but it feels like this is what was happening in the beginning of WoL aswell and when zergs figured out some stuff, things started to look much better.
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ZvT last month was in favor of zerg in Korea 51.4 to 48.6 while being almost dead even internationally according to these graphs. Aligulac has shown that ZvT has been consistently improving for zerg with each passing month. http://aligulac.com/reports/ Zerg is tied with terran for most premier tournament wins with 5. Poor toss only has 2 premier wins. In major tournaments zerg has 7 wins to the 5 of toss and 1 of terran. So considering tournament wins Zerg has been the most successful race in HOTS so far. Explain to me again why Zerg needs to be buffed? Because they had one bad month in Korea? The July winrates may look bad but Zerg won every tournament that concluded in July. They won Redbull, Ritmix, IEM and Dreamhack.
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On August 02 2013 04:21 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:16 WeRRa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Give this guy a cookie, for the most nonsense balance whine in almost every thread. since hydras are fine yeah? since we see so much hydraplay vs bio...oh wait. love when people start talking bad about people just because they are out of arguments against their arguments. @snowbear: yeah clearly stephano doing roach hydra vs helion banshee opening shows that roach hydra with new super speedboost makes them viable. /sarcasm. this is HOTS. stop talking about WoL. you are living in the past. NOTHING from WoL matters for balance right now. nobody cares about 5 rax reaper being imba or queen patch being bad or roach hydra being viable vs helion banshee opening (which btw still might be viable but not vs the other openings). for one thing you are right. all roach hydra in ZvT can do is a 2 2 all in. if that doesnt do significant damage its gg for T. Z needs more MACRO strats and comps, not more all in. at least there we agree. but yeah maybe the viper buff will make roach hydra finally be viable in a macro game.
Yeah ignore me TLPD link and ignore my statement about the 52% winrate. Way to go man.
When was the last time you saw mech in TvZ? It's as viable as roach hydra atm. But mine marine and muta ling bling are superior atm.
And we are seeing beautiful long macro games atm in TvZ, so I don't see your problem.
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On August 02 2013 04:41 Mattumsfox wrote:ZvT last month was in favor of zerg in Korea 51.4 to 48.6 while being almost dead even internationally according to these graphs. Aligulac has shown that ZvT has been consistently improving for zerg with each passing month. http://aligulac.com/reports/Zerg is tied with terran for most premier tournament wins with 5. Poor toss only has 2 premier wins. In major tournaments zerg has 7 wins to the 5 of toss and 1 of terran. So considering tournament wins Zerg has been the most successful race in HOTS so far. Explain to me again why Zerg needs to be buffed? Because they had one bad month in Korea? The July winrates may look bad but Zerg won every tournament that concluded in July. They won Redbull, Ritmix, IEM and Dreamhack.
Zerg needs to be buffed because only-highest-level-matters cannot accept the fact that the zerg is doing worse in Korea where it matters (WCS/ProLeague/GSTL).
All the success that guys like Soulkey, Hyun, Revival, Life, Leenock, Snuty, Jaedong, Stephano had do not matter because they either happened in crap foreign tournaments, versus vastly inferior players or the zergs were forced to do some kind of all-in or stick on T2 and these kind of games do not count.
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Zergs win every major tournament in July, have highest winrates on ladder----> buff.
I guess that poll on which race whines the most was deadly accurate..
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Way too small numbers to be of significance. sorry!
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On August 02 2013 04:45 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:21 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:16 WeRRa wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Give this guy a cookie, for the most nonsense balance whine in almost every thread. since hydras are fine yeah? since we see so much hydraplay vs bio...oh wait. love when people start talking bad about people just because they are out of arguments against their arguments. @snowbear: yeah clearly stephano doing roach hydra vs helion banshee opening shows that roach hydra with new super speedboost makes them viable. /sarcasm. this is HOTS. stop talking about WoL. you are living in the past. NOTHING from WoL matters for balance right now. nobody cares about 5 rax reaper being imba or queen patch being bad or roach hydra being viable vs helion banshee opening (which btw still might be viable but not vs the other openings). for one thing you are right. all roach hydra in ZvT can do is a 2 2 all in. if that doesnt do significant damage its gg for T. Z needs more MACRO strats and comps, not more all in. at least there we agree. but yeah maybe the viper buff will make roach hydra finally be viable in a macro game. Yeah ignore me TLPD link and ignore my statement about the 52% winrate. Way to go man. When was the last time you saw mech in TvZ? It's as viable as roach hydra atm. But mine marine and muta ling bling are superior atm. And we are seeing beautiful long macro games atm in TvZ, so I don't see your problem.
and i am all for making mech more viable. i really dont understand why you would be against every race having a lot of viable options and strategies. it makes for much more fun games and more actual strategic decisions in a strategy game. like many MANY Ts want mech to be viable but are against Z being able to choose from different strats? thats just biased, nothing more.
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For the love of god stop posting these, they just fuel the 'IMBA IMBA IMBA' fire. Every single person who was outraged by medivac speed (inc. me) was told to shut up and deal with it, and guess what, we did, and the game is better than ever.
You can't take the top 1% starcraft players in the world, give 1 month of games from a tournament where you can prepare for your opponant (worthless sample size, and worthless game data), and expect to use that as balance. It's completely ridiculous.
None of this data is useful what-so-ever. None of it.
Now, take hundreds of thousands of games for each match-up in each league (AKA the data blizzard easily collects) now that's something you can use. Cry some more please, now i remember why i don't read forums anymore.
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The Korean sample size seems extremely small considering all the matches that have happened recently(WCS, GSTL, Proleague, IEM Qualifiers, etc..), this leads me to question the validity of the Korean graphs. I think TvZ is for the most part becoming more balanced just from the way that Zergs are adjusting. Recently there has been some pretty good TvZs that were very entertaining to watch such as Effort v Flash on Whirlwind(WCS Challenger) and Polt v Revival on Star Station(IEM Shanghai).
The thing with window mines is that if the Zerg player splits/sends a pack of zerglings in the front and has observers their engagements are 10 times better than if they don't. There is a bit of randomness/gimmick to the unit but I think we are starting to see it mitigated by players with good unit control.
Also in regards to lack of Zerg presence in the later stages of WCS KR there was 3 groups in the ro32 that had 3 Zerg players and it happened again with one group in ro16. The race distribution wasn't that great, imo. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Premier
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On August 02 2013 05:23 Stress wrote:The Korean sample size seems extremely small considering all the matches that have happened recently(WCS, GSTL, Proleague, IEM Qualifiers, etc..), this leads me to question the validity of the Korean graphs. I think TvZ is for the most part becoming more balanced just from the way that Zergs are adjusting. Recently there has been some pretty good TvZs that were very entertaining to watch such as Effort v Flash on Whirlwind(WCS Challenger) and Polt v Revival on Star Station(IEM Shanghai). The thing with window mines is that if the Zerg player splits/sends a pack of zerglings in the front and has observers their engagements are 10 times better than if they don't. There is a bit of randomness/gimmick to the unit but I think we are starting to see it mitigated by players with good unit control. Also in regards to lack of Zerg presence in the later stages of WCS KR there was 3 groups in the ro32 that had 3 Zerg players and it happened again with one group in ro16. The race distribution wasn't that great, imo. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_2_Korea_OSL/Premier
First of all, you listed that there were a bunch of matches in Korea, but the 4 tournaments you listed were the only 4 that happened in Korea this month. Keeping in mind there werent many GSTL matches since it ended half way through the month and there weren't that many PL matches while they were in playoffs. There were 2 weeks worth of matchups total the entire month. One weekend of matches and 4 or 5 total matches from the playoffs which is about equivalent to an additional week.
So no, we didn't make this graph up. There simply weren't that many games.
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On August 01 2013 17:53 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 17:50 Snowbear wrote:On August 01 2013 16:27 ReMinD_ wrote: TvZ is so incredibly in T's favor that I expect the percentage to be even worse next month. But I am surprised about ZvP. All these issues could be resolved by making Hydralisk a decent unit. If you take a bigger sample size you will notice how close the numbers are. Sorry, but you are not getting your 70% zvt WOL winrate back. Blizzard will NEVER make the same mistake. you are embarrassing yourself with posting lies like zvt was 70% in wol. even last GSL in WoL was 61% while now we have over 70% in OSL for T (both very small sample sizes). just stop posting lies like this, its getting annoying.
I would advice anyone who even considered replying to this guy to check the last page of his posting history. It is exclusively him saying ZvT is fine past the queen-ovie patch. "just give it more time guys 1½ months is not enough to judge anything"
Meanwhile you are balance whining 14 days after a patch that nerfed T.
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On August 01 2013 11:10 Porishan wrote:not sure if trolling or.... OP has no source, a single post with 2 pictures which anyone can make, plus this Show nested quote +David Kim: I don't think there is balance problem right now, and I don't think Zerg is weak at the moment. For example, the recent Dreamhack had a ZvZ finals. Also, WCS S1 Korea Regional Final had a ZvT finals and the Zerg won (Soulkey vs Innovation). In terms of ladder's data, Zerg actually has a little advantage right now.
They key there is that DK was basing his balance numbers off ladder data, he didn't cite tournament data.
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Here is an interesting factoid for people to discuss. In all the pro matches how often do you see zerg winning macro games in ZvX during the later stages of the tournament (ie not open brackets super early rounds etc.). A great amount of Z wins have been all ins that punished someone playing overly greedy.
Basically I'm saying if there was any credence to any balance indications what so ever for zerg players. It would be for some reason Zergs at the top level are having a difficult time getting into the late game properly. That or something with the Zerg late game isn't quite powerful enough to stay in the game.
None of this means that the game is imbalanced per say, it could be more of an indicator of forgiveness with mistakes being the more likely culprit. IE a T or P player is able to recover from a mistake more easily then a Z player.
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Game seems to be in a decent state all things considered, but what the heck is up with KR ZvP?!
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This is more accurate. Maby marine with 7 range will be next change?
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This is more accurate. Maby marine with 7 range will be next change? Well, you can still see a bit of blue so not soon.
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On August 02 2013 06:29 Nerski wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 11:10 Porishan wrote:not sure if trolling or.... OP has no source, a single post with 2 pictures which anyone can make, plus this David Kim: I don't think there is balance problem right now, and I don't think Zerg is weak at the moment. For example, the recent Dreamhack had a ZvZ finals. Also, WCS S1 Korea Regional Final had a ZvT finals and the Zerg won (Soulkey vs Innovation). In terms of ladder's data, Zerg actually has a little advantage right now. They key there is that DK was basing his balance numbers off ladder data, he didn't cite tournament data.
He was citing tournament data, just not super recent data, nor would anyone want him to balance off super recent data alone. We don't need another queen range patch because of a one month slump.
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I think ZvT needs to be looked upon probably is because of mines being so forgiving for the terran, and i still think Swarmhost + Static should be nerfed in some way against protoss, but then you need to buff zerg against Skytoss storm
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On August 01 2013 16:19 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 10:54 mrjpark wrote:On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. It's most likely due to Zergs being able to take maps against Terrans, but not series. I don't honestly remember the last time in the GSL/OSL a Zerg beat a Terran in a best of series where the Terran wasn't completely outmatched. Like Life vs. jjakji, Life will win that every time unless the game is terribly imbalanced. But it's not. I feel like there's just the slightest advantage for Terran right now, and that's all you really need at that level of play. Hyvaa > Fantasy 2-1 July 11th KangHo > Maru 2-0 July 18th
Okay, I'm sorry. I know this is really arbitrary...but Hyvaa vs Fantasy needs to be thrown out the window. That was the most absurd series of games and Fantasy essentially threw that. Also, I'm not really on the Maru hype train. He's pretty good, but I think he kind of lucked his way into the finals. A lot of people in his way just...played worse. I don't think he's a GSL/OSL finals caliber player. And we'll probably see that when he gets 4-0'd or 4-1'd in the finals in decimating fashion. I honestly think Losira versus Maru is a mismatch and Losira will win that 9x out of 10 in a balanced game. Edit: My second point being, I think the Losira/Maru matchup falls under my initial point where Zergs will take series when they're just that much better than the Terran.
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On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane.
Hydras are fine. Stop whining.
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On August 02 2013 09:44 jkim91 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Hydras are fine. Stop whining.
hydras are not fine.
two upgrades to make them just decent. they don't even beat air many times, something they are supposed to do..
corruptors are even worse though
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On August 02 2013 12:11 jj33 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2013 09:44 jkim91 wrote:On August 02 2013 04:12 Decendos wrote:On August 02 2013 04:10 Snowbear wrote:On August 02 2013 04:08 Vestige wrote: they need to either decrease cost or build time for lair or make hydra den and hydra build time faster. They function like a teir 1.5 unit but cant get them until teir 2. They also need to give the tank +30 damage and give the old ghost snipe back. No. They have to do 0. Because the game is actually balanced. And any small buff, like for example a queen buff (hehe ;d), will break the game. Never learned a lesson from WOL? great argument. never buff Z again because once uppon a time blizz made a bad buff. dude srsly...hydras are way UP in any MU and desperately need a buff. just give them some +bio dmg and reduce spore +bio dmg. you are probably....once again...the only one that says hydras are fine. your bias and ignorance is insane. Hydras are fine. Stop whining. hydras are not fine. two upgrades to make them just decent. they don't even beat air many times, something they are supposed to do.. corruptors are even worse though
Take it to the balance thread. Im sure they would enjoy the attention you would provide them.
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opterown
Australia54650 Posts
On August 02 2013 09:35 mrjpark wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 16:19 Ghanburighan wrote:On August 01 2013 10:54 mrjpark wrote:On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. It's most likely due to Zergs being able to take maps against Terrans, but not series. I don't honestly remember the last time in the GSL/OSL a Zerg beat a Terran in a best of series where the Terran wasn't completely outmatched. Like Life vs. jjakji, Life will win that every time unless the game is terribly imbalanced. But it's not. I feel like there's just the slightest advantage for Terran right now, and that's all you really need at that level of play. Hyvaa > Fantasy 2-1 July 11th KangHo > Maru 2-0 July 18th Okay, I'm sorry. I know this is really arbitrary...but Hyvaa vs Fantasy needs to be thrown out the window. That was the most absurd series of games and Fantasy essentially threw that. Also, I'm not really on the Maru hype train. He's pretty good, but I think he kind of lucked his way into the finals. A lot of people in his way just...played worse. I don't think he's a GSL/OSL finals caliber player. And we'll probably see that when he gets 4-0'd or 4-1'd in the finals in decimating fashion. I honestly think Losira versus Maru is a mismatch and Losira will win that 9x out of 10 in a balanced game. Edit: My second point being, I think the Losira/Maru matchup falls under my initial point where Zergs will take series when they're just that much better than the Terran. joke post
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If zerg is gonna get buffed itll probably be the viper, ive seen 2 interviews where d kim has eluded that the viper would be their priority if zergs were having trouble
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On August 02 2013 14:02 TAMinator wrote: If zerg is gonna get buffed itll probably be the viper, ive seen 2 interviews where d kim has eluded that the viper would be their priority if zergs were having trouble
That, and they cant really touch any of the other zerg units without affecting zvz/zvp (or just dont want to). I suppose if they were to stick with the viper they could end up increasing the blinding cloud range, but aside from that I'm not to sure what else they could realistically buff for the viper that would end up helping zerg. After all when you watch zvt games, most of them are ended when zerg still has lair tech.
That said, if they were to buff zerg in the midgame it would need to be something that gives zerg sustainability for them to get to hive but isnt so overpowered that just gives zerg a free path to hive. Currently I can only think of one such unit : The infestor. Maayyybe the zergling (such as an increased attack speed), but I wouldn't expect that from blizzard this much into hots.
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Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/
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On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international).
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On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments)
Was listed in the reddit thread.
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On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread.
Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed.
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On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed. Just answering this part of Dani's post:
it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games
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On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed.
It is because the winrates states for example "winrates korea". If you then use winrates using all the matches in korea then that's not a sample, that's a census.
If you used all the matches in korea and then used it to represent the world wide winrate, then the matches in korea would be a sample, and the amount of matches the sample size. It would be a horrible way to take a sample, but a sample none the less.
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It says that protoss ist imba, so why am i still losing?
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The P in OP stands for Protoss, hahaha just kidding is slightly favored though
edit: OHH shit korea is fucked up
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Since Taeja won ASUS ROG, HOTS Terran now have 6 major tournament victories, Zerg 5, and Protoss 2. I doubt it can be a coincidence for years and years that Protoss simply isn't capable of competing in the long run for the premier trophies. If the race works for lesser players on ladder and in casual tournaments, but not for high-end professionals, then the skillcap and potential of the race simply isn't as high as the other two.
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On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/
it's not a census obviously because the data is only from a period of time and is used in a discussion about general balance.. Sample size is a fine word.
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On August 04 2013 06:50 xyzz wrote: Since Taeja won ASUS ROG, HOTS Terran now have 6 major tournament victories, Zerg 5, and Protoss 2. I doubt it can be a coincidence for years and years that Protoss simply isn't capable of competing in the long run for the premier trophies. If the race works for lesser players on ladder and in casual tournaments, but not for high-end professionals, then the skillcap and potential of the race simply isn't as high as the other two.
How funny it would be if San came back from that
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How funny it would be if San came back from that That guy plays Protoss. The no comebacks race.
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On August 04 2013 06:56 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ it's not a census obviously because the data is only from a period of time and is used in a discussion about general balance.. Sample size is a fine word.
but the data only describes that period of time, it's obviously a census
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lol the reactions in this thread are pricelessly oblivious - group recitation of the whiny mantra "zerg are up" - and a headlong rush to either invalidate or simply disregard the data itself. Random personal opinions that still don't appreciate the statistics. What a mess.
I'm glad that none of you have anything to do with actually balancing this game.
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On August 04 2013 07:56 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 06:56 Markwerf wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ it's not a census obviously because the data is only from a period of time and is used in a discussion about general balance.. Sample size is a fine word. but the data only describes that period of time, it's obviously a census
doesn't matter as a small portion of all theoretical available data is used to say something about the general population paramater, ie balance. Balance is just the winrates from the theoretical set of infinite matches. Thus in that discussion this is definately not a census and the word sample size is absolutely fine. If you were to talk only about July and these specific set of games then sure this is a census but I think it's safe to assume this data is used as part of a discussion about general trends/balance.
It's about context and in the way virtually everyone uses it here sample size is correct. The way you look at it every piece of data ever is a census because data is always complete for some restricted set.
Either way the general point most make which is completely fair is this numbers are just a little piece and especially since they are not even independent (as lots of players played multiple games) you can't say much from this data. The OP does a fine job not trying to conclude anything from it but still these 'statistical' posts make me cringe most of the time as it's too easy for everyone to draw wrong conclusions.
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On August 02 2013 14:02 TAMinator wrote: If zerg is gonna get buffed itll probably be the viper, ive seen 2 interviews where d kim has eluded that the viper would be their priority if zergs were having trouble
The only problem i see with buffing viper is that it wont help muta ling bane in zvt at all, which is the most entertaining unit composition against bio mine to play and watch. Roach hydra is a lot more boring imo. However i cant see a other way (maybe infestor?) to buff zerg without ruining the balance for other matchups.
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On August 01 2013 15:26 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote:On August 01 2013 15:05 F.O.A.D. wrote: Everyone knows Z is currently UP. All we can do is wait for Blizz to wake up and make the necessary adjustments. Not according to Aligulac On August 01 2013 15:05 Grovbolle wrote:For reference: TvZ: 51.5% (1394 games) PvT: 50.8% (1326 games) PvZ: 48.5% (1717 games) From http://aligulac.com/reports I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. lol shows how much you pay attention to zerg. In zvt, I have tried swarmhosts a lot, and if you go swarmhosts drop play murders you. If you go ling/infestor you get crushed by bio/mine because infestors aren't as good as they used to be. Like you act like we zergs are just sticking to wol strats, no if that were true we would be doing ling/infestor into bl/corr/infestor. No zergs are experimenting and trying other stuff, but non muta play in zvt makes zvt a lot harder. zvp you see lots of zerg uses with vipers/swarmhosts/mutalisks/etc. Like I don't think you know what you are talkinga bout.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's my analysis of ZvT.
In early WoL, the go-to in ZvT was Marine/Med/Tank vs Ling/Bling/Muta, which was more or less balanced. However after Queen patch, Zergs started using infestors (or Infestor/Brood) and started to dominate the match up.
After they nerfed the infestor in Hots, they also buffed Muta. But Mutalisks, even with their speed and HP regen, can't harass like it was possible in WoL due to widow mines. The problem being that widow mines do well against all three units of the Ling/Bling/Muta composition.
Furthermore, Zerg's only true answer to drop harass are Mutalisks, but if they only serve a defensive purpose then that's a lot of resources that can't be used when Terran pushes (ie in a straight up fight). What are the Mutalisks target? In WoL they went for Tanks when facing Marine/Med/Tank, but in Bio/mine, both units seemingly counter the mutalisk.
So ZvT is either Zerg being able to fight straight up on the ground with Roaches, Infestors, Ultras, Blings and can't deal with drops effectively since they have no "true" anti-air or Zerg deals with drop harass but can't fight straight up efficiently because Mutalisks are mostly dead weight in a straight up fight. That's the fundamental difference between Marine/Tank and Bio/Mine, I honestly think that the mine is what's causing problems in the match up, but again, I may be slightly biased here. This is the impression I have, not through my own games but watching professional play.
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On August 04 2013 06:50 xyzz wrote: Since Taeja won ASUS ROG, HOTS Terran now have 6 major tournament victories, Zerg 5, and Protoss 2. I doubt it can be a coincidence for years and years that Protoss simply isn't capable of competing in the long run for the premier trophies. If the race works for lesser players on ladder and in casual tournaments, but not for high-end professionals, then the skillcap and potential of the race simply isn't as high as the other two.
Or Protoss is just easier to learn and harder to master then the other 2 races, since the skillcap in sc2 can never be reached by any mortal. The only skill cap is the physical limit of the people playing it, which is shifting heavily so balancing around it is not a good idea. The race itself has many "sneaky" units though and afterwards there is just a small amount of straight up units left, that do well even if scouted. It makes it easy to train against one style that every protoss uses in the lategame. Just like Terrans in TvP that don't have many options either.
Most Protoss play behind on upgrades always, I am curious how the winrates would be if they wouldn't try it with 3/3 only. So I would go with alot of unused potential left, just like Zergs not using Burrow. Though burrow would need a whole new layer of thinking, while 3/3/3 Protoss units are just more badass and the only thing you have to remember is to get +1 shield before +3 armor.
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On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed.
well, aligulac contains all sorts of small tournaments, which screws with balance. As in those tournaments there are very many "Pro vs NonPro" or even just "Master vs Platinum" situations, in which the latter player will lose 99% of the time, regardless of balance.
An example what these kind of things do: matchup: AvB is 60:40 balanced with 1000 games in which the players are evenly matched. Then there are 500games in which the winrates are 99% for and 500games in which the winrates are 1% for A. winrate of race A is therefore shown as (60*1000+99*500+1*500)/2000 = 55% instead of the true 60% balance.
That's why stats with "lesser tournaments" will always be close to 50:50. As games in which one player is "outmatched" exist for both races and therefore the balance of those games is 50:50, the stats always tend to be closer to 50:50 as they should be from "Pro vs Pro" stats alone. Of course it remains to find out how big this influence really is.
At least that's one approach to explain why aligulac (and other big statistics) never really has any outliers.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On August 04 2013 19:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed. well, aligulac contains all sorts of small tournaments, which screws with balance. As in those tournaments there are very many "Pro vs NonPro" or even just "Master vs Platinum" situations, in which the latter player will lose 99% of the time, regardless of balance. An example what these kind of things do: matchup: AvB is 60:40 balanced with 1000 games in which the players are evenly matched. Then there are 500games in which the winrates are 99% for and 500games in which the winrates are 1% for A. winrate of race A is therefore shown as (60*1000+99*500+1*500)/2000 = 55% instead of the true 60% balance. That's why stats with "lesser tournaments" will always be close to 50:50. As games in which one player is "outmatched" exist for both races and therefore the balance of those games is 50:50, the stats always tend to be closer to 50:50 as they should be from "Pro vs Pro" stats alone. Of course it remains to find out how big this influence really is. At least that's one approach to explain why aligulac (and other big statistics) never really has any outliers.
the same can be said for foreign tournaments, where players like Hyun Jaedong Taeja Leenock dominate everyone else, and it seems more rare for a lot of the top korean protoss to attend.
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On August 04 2013 20:12 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 19:59 Big J wrote:On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed. well, aligulac contains all sorts of small tournaments, which screws with balance. As in those tournaments there are very many "Pro vs NonPro" or even just "Master vs Platinum" situations, in which the latter player will lose 99% of the time, regardless of balance. An example what these kind of things do: matchup: AvB is 60:40 balanced with 1000 games in which the players are evenly matched. Then there are 500games in which the winrates are 99% for and 500games in which the winrates are 1% for A. winrate of race A is therefore shown as (60*1000+99*500+1*500)/2000 = 55% instead of the true 60% balance. That's why stats with "lesser tournaments" will always be close to 50:50. As games in which one player is "outmatched" exist for both races and therefore the balance of those games is 50:50, the stats always tend to be closer to 50:50 as they should be from "Pro vs Pro" stats alone. Of course it remains to find out how big this influence really is. At least that's one approach to explain why aligulac (and other big statistics) never really has any outliers. the same can be said for foreign tournaments, where players like Hyun Jaedong Taeja Leenock dominate everyone else, and it seems more rare for a lot of the top korean protoss to attend.
I agree, but Protoss still has the highest win rate. What does that tell us?
And even though so many top korea zergs frequently attend and do well in foreign tournaments, the race as a whole has the worst win rate, almost every month. So even top korea zergs seem unable to balance out the statistics, because foreign zergs do so much worse than foreign Protoss players and to a slightly lesser extent Terran players.
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Looks like pretty good balance atm.
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On August 04 2013 20:12 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 19:59 Big J wrote:On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed. well, aligulac contains all sorts of small tournaments, which screws with balance. As in those tournaments there are very many "Pro vs NonPro" or even just "Master vs Platinum" situations, in which the latter player will lose 99% of the time, regardless of balance. An example what these kind of things do: matchup: AvB is 60:40 balanced with 1000 games in which the players are evenly matched. Then there are 500games in which the winrates are 99% for and 500games in which the winrates are 1% for A. winrate of race A is therefore shown as (60*1000+99*500+1*500)/2000 = 55% instead of the true 60% balance. That's why stats with "lesser tournaments" will always be close to 50:50. As games in which one player is "outmatched" exist for both races and therefore the balance of those games is 50:50, the stats always tend to be closer to 50:50 as they should be from "Pro vs Pro" stats alone. Of course it remains to find out how big this influence really is. At least that's one approach to explain why aligulac (and other big statistics) never really has any outliers. the same can be said for foreign tournaments, where players like Hyun Jaedong Taeja Leenock dominate everyone else, and it seems more rare for a lot of the top korean protoss to attend. Edit: sorry, stupid argument, because it's mathematically equal...
So yeah, it's just probably just like that: the more tournaments you take, the closer the stats go to 50:50 regardless of balance. Unless all of the taken tournaments are on "the same skilllevel".
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On August 04 2013 20:20 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 20:12 Liquid`Ret wrote:On August 04 2013 19:59 Big J wrote:On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed. well, aligulac contains all sorts of small tournaments, which screws with balance. As in those tournaments there are very many "Pro vs NonPro" or even just "Master vs Platinum" situations, in which the latter player will lose 99% of the time, regardless of balance. An example what these kind of things do: matchup: AvB is 60:40 balanced with 1000 games in which the players are evenly matched. Then there are 500games in which the winrates are 99% for and 500games in which the winrates are 1% for A. winrate of race A is therefore shown as (60*1000+99*500+1*500)/2000 = 55% instead of the true 60% balance. That's why stats with "lesser tournaments" will always be close to 50:50. As games in which one player is "outmatched" exist for both races and therefore the balance of those games is 50:50, the stats always tend to be closer to 50:50 as they should be from "Pro vs Pro" stats alone. Of course it remains to find out how big this influence really is. At least that's one approach to explain why aligulac (and other big statistics) never really has any outliers. the same can be said for foreign tournaments, where players like Hyun Jaedong Taeja Leenock dominate everyone else, and it seems more rare for a lot of the top korean protoss to attend. I agree, but Protoss still has the highest win rate. What does that tell us? And even though so many top korea zergs frequently attend and do well in foreign tournaments, the race as a whole has the worst win rate, almost every month. So even top korea zergs seem unable to balance out the statistics, because foreign zergs do so much worse than foreign Protoss players and to a slightly lesser extent Terran players.
Im not sure i understand, from my experience foreign scene is where Zerg was historically strongest race.
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On August 04 2013 20:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 20:12 Liquid`Ret wrote:On August 04 2013 19:59 Big J wrote:On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed. well, aligulac contains all sorts of small tournaments, which screws with balance. As in those tournaments there are very many "Pro vs NonPro" or even just "Master vs Platinum" situations, in which the latter player will lose 99% of the time, regardless of balance. An example what these kind of things do: matchup: AvB is 60:40 balanced with 1000 games in which the players are evenly matched. Then there are 500games in which the winrates are 99% for and 500games in which the winrates are 1% for A. winrate of race A is therefore shown as (60*1000+99*500+1*500)/2000 = 55% instead of the true 60% balance. That's why stats with "lesser tournaments" will always be close to 50:50. As games in which one player is "outmatched" exist for both races and therefore the balance of those games is 50:50, the stats always tend to be closer to 50:50 as they should be from "Pro vs Pro" stats alone. Of course it remains to find out how big this influence really is. At least that's one approach to explain why aligulac (and other big statistics) never really has any outliers. the same can be said for foreign tournaments, where players like Hyun Jaedong Taeja Leenock dominate everyone else, and it seems more rare for a lot of the top korean protoss to attend. Edit: sorry, stupid argument, because it's mathematically equal... So yeah, it's just probably just like that: the more tournaments you take, the closer the stats go to 50:50 regardless of balance. Unless all of the taken tournaments are on "the same skilllevel".
It's closer to 50% but also more reliable in terms of trends. For example if you look on oldd TLPD graph: http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQ if you look at korena graph you can't really drwa any conlsuions from it. Aligulac graph on other hand show trends really well, especially by looking at TvZ historically it really shows how matchup changed in time.
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On August 04 2013 22:30 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 20:28 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 20:12 Liquid`Ret wrote:On August 04 2013 19:59 Big J wrote:On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed. well, aligulac contains all sorts of small tournaments, which screws with balance. As in those tournaments there are very many "Pro vs NonPro" or even just "Master vs Platinum" situations, in which the latter player will lose 99% of the time, regardless of balance. An example what these kind of things do: matchup: AvB is 60:40 balanced with 1000 games in which the players are evenly matched. Then there are 500games in which the winrates are 99% for and 500games in which the winrates are 1% for A. winrate of race A is therefore shown as (60*1000+99*500+1*500)/2000 = 55% instead of the true 60% balance. That's why stats with "lesser tournaments" will always be close to 50:50. As games in which one player is "outmatched" exist for both races and therefore the balance of those games is 50:50, the stats always tend to be closer to 50:50 as they should be from "Pro vs Pro" stats alone. Of course it remains to find out how big this influence really is. At least that's one approach to explain why aligulac (and other big statistics) never really has any outliers. the same can be said for foreign tournaments, where players like Hyun Jaedong Taeja Leenock dominate everyone else, and it seems more rare for a lot of the top korean protoss to attend. Edit: sorry, stupid argument, because it's mathematically equal... So yeah, it's just probably just like that: the more tournaments you take, the closer the stats go to 50:50 regardless of balance. Unless all of the taken tournaments are on "the same skilllevel". It's closer to 50% but also more reliable in terms of trends. For example if you look on oldd TLPD graph: http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQ if you look at korena graph you can't really drwa any conlsuions from it. Aligulac graph on other hand show trends really well, especially by looking at TvZ historically it really shows how matchup changed in time. Yeah, but what do trends do for us? In the end we want the raw numbers and want to know whether a matchup is really close to 52:48 (ergo balanced), or if it is 60:40 (ergo imbalanced).
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On August 04 2013 23:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 22:30 keglu wrote:On August 04 2013 20:28 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 20:12 Liquid`Ret wrote:On August 04 2013 19:59 Big J wrote:On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed. well, aligulac contains all sorts of small tournaments, which screws with balance. As in those tournaments there are very many "Pro vs NonPro" or even just "Master vs Platinum" situations, in which the latter player will lose 99% of the time, regardless of balance. An example what these kind of things do: matchup: AvB is 60:40 balanced with 1000 games in which the players are evenly matched. Then there are 500games in which the winrates are 99% for and 500games in which the winrates are 1% for A. winrate of race A is therefore shown as (60*1000+99*500+1*500)/2000 = 55% instead of the true 60% balance. That's why stats with "lesser tournaments" will always be close to 50:50. As games in which one player is "outmatched" exist for both races and therefore the balance of those games is 50:50, the stats always tend to be closer to 50:50 as they should be from "Pro vs Pro" stats alone. Of course it remains to find out how big this influence really is. At least that's one approach to explain why aligulac (and other big statistics) never really has any outliers. the same can be said for foreign tournaments, where players like Hyun Jaedong Taeja Leenock dominate everyone else, and it seems more rare for a lot of the top korean protoss to attend. Edit: sorry, stupid argument, because it's mathematically equal... So yeah, it's just probably just like that: the more tournaments you take, the closer the stats go to 50:50 regardless of balance. Unless all of the taken tournaments are on "the same skilllevel". It's closer to 50% but also more reliable in terms of trends. For example if you look on oldd TLPD graph: http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQ if you look at korena graph you can't really drwa any conlsuions from it. Aligulac graph on other hand show trends really well, especially by looking at TvZ historically it really shows how matchup changed in time. Yeah, but what do trends do for us? In the end we want the raw numbers and want to know whether a matchup is really close to 52:48 (ergo balanced), or if it is 60:40 (ergo imbalanced).
You just have to change criteria of balnace. 60% is not realistic for that much data, i consider anything over 55% heavily favoured,(like TvZ early WoL or ZvT late WoL),
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Vatican City State732 Posts
The racial biases in this thread are overwhelming. Clean it up guys, this sort of discussion belongs on the bnet forums.
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thought its about julyzerg winrates
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On August 04 2013 23:34 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 23:03 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 22:30 keglu wrote:On August 04 2013 20:28 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 20:12 Liquid`Ret wrote:On August 04 2013 19:59 Big J wrote:On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote:On August 03 2013 19:25 nkr wrote: Stop using the word sample size when the data is the whole population that is being examined. It's a census
:/ Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed. well, aligulac contains all sorts of small tournaments, which screws with balance. As in those tournaments there are very many "Pro vs NonPro" or even just "Master vs Platinum" situations, in which the latter player will lose 99% of the time, regardless of balance. An example what these kind of things do: matchup: AvB is 60:40 balanced with 1000 games in which the players are evenly matched. Then there are 500games in which the winrates are 99% for and 500games in which the winrates are 1% for A. winrate of race A is therefore shown as (60*1000+99*500+1*500)/2000 = 55% instead of the true 60% balance. That's why stats with "lesser tournaments" will always be close to 50:50. As games in which one player is "outmatched" exist for both races and therefore the balance of those games is 50:50, the stats always tend to be closer to 50:50 as they should be from "Pro vs Pro" stats alone. Of course it remains to find out how big this influence really is. At least that's one approach to explain why aligulac (and other big statistics) never really has any outliers. the same can be said for foreign tournaments, where players like Hyun Jaedong Taeja Leenock dominate everyone else, and it seems more rare for a lot of the top korean protoss to attend. Edit: sorry, stupid argument, because it's mathematically equal... So yeah, it's just probably just like that: the more tournaments you take, the closer the stats go to 50:50 regardless of balance. Unless all of the taken tournaments are on "the same skilllevel". It's closer to 50% but also more reliable in terms of trends. For example if you look on oldd TLPD graph: http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQ if you look at korena graph you can't really drwa any conlsuions from it. Aligulac graph on other hand show trends really well, especially by looking at TvZ historically it really shows how matchup changed in time. Yeah, but what do trends do for us? In the end we want the raw numbers and want to know whether a matchup is really close to 52:48 (ergo balanced), or if it is 60:40 (ergo imbalanced). You just have to change criteria of balnace. 60% is not realistic for that much data, i consider anything over 55% heavily favoured,(like TvZ early WoL or ZvT late WoL),
early TvZ and late ZvT were 35/65 dude.
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The reason why Z is so low is because people are inexplicably using hydras when they're basically still just as bad as they were in WoL. It'll always be a trash unit as long as it has 80 hp.
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On August 05 2013 01:10 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2013 23:34 keglu wrote:On August 04 2013 23:03 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 22:30 keglu wrote:On August 04 2013 20:28 Big J wrote:On August 04 2013 20:12 Liquid`Ret wrote:On August 04 2013 19:59 Big J wrote:On August 03 2013 22:25 keglu wrote:On August 03 2013 22:20 Grovbolle wrote:On August 03 2013 19:33 dani` wrote: [quote] Considering Aligulac has between 1300 and 1700 games in July per matchup, it appears to me data in the OP is fact a sample of all available tournament games since it has only 400-500 games per matchup (Korea + international). OP contains: All Premier Tournaments All Major Tournaments All Direct Qualifiers to Premier Tournaments (this does not include Qualifiers for Qualifiers *only incl. later stages) All Premier Teamleagues (GSTL, ATC and PL) All Monthly Finals (Go4SC2 and Zotac Top 16, no weekly tournaments) Was listed in the reddit thread. Thats still 1/3 of games so clearly not whole population Also WCG is listed as premier tournament, i dont see qualifiers to WCG listed. well, aligulac contains all sorts of small tournaments, which screws with balance. As in those tournaments there are very many "Pro vs NonPro" or even just "Master vs Platinum" situations, in which the latter player will lose 99% of the time, regardless of balance. An example what these kind of things do: matchup: AvB is 60:40 balanced with 1000 games in which the players are evenly matched. Then there are 500games in which the winrates are 99% for and 500games in which the winrates are 1% for A. winrate of race A is therefore shown as (60*1000+99*500+1*500)/2000 = 55% instead of the true 60% balance. That's why stats with "lesser tournaments" will always be close to 50:50. As games in which one player is "outmatched" exist for both races and therefore the balance of those games is 50:50, the stats always tend to be closer to 50:50 as they should be from "Pro vs Pro" stats alone. Of course it remains to find out how big this influence really is. At least that's one approach to explain why aligulac (and other big statistics) never really has any outliers. the same can be said for foreign tournaments, where players like Hyun Jaedong Taeja Leenock dominate everyone else, and it seems more rare for a lot of the top korean protoss to attend. Edit: sorry, stupid argument, because it's mathematically equal... So yeah, it's just probably just like that: the more tournaments you take, the closer the stats go to 50:50 regardless of balance. Unless all of the taken tournaments are on "the same skilllevel". It's closer to 50% but also more reliable in terms of trends. For example if you look on oldd TLPD graph: http://imgur.com/a/5uKDQ if you look at korena graph you can't really drwa any conlsuions from it. Aligulac graph on other hand show trends really well, especially by looking at TvZ historically it really shows how matchup changed in time. Yeah, but what do trends do for us? In the end we want the raw numbers and want to know whether a matchup is really close to 52:48 (ergo balanced), or if it is 60:40 (ergo imbalanced). You just have to change criteria of balnace. 60% is not realistic for that much data, i consider anything over 55% heavily favoured,(like TvZ early WoL or ZvT late WoL), early TvZ and late ZvT were 35/65 dude.
TvZ based on 50-300 games per matchup monthly in first few months. Past that when number of games became bigger no matchup was at ever 60%.
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I really want to see a Ladder winrate vs tournament winrate comparison. I feel like PvZ on ladder favors Z where in tourneys favors P. But I guess it would be blizzards problem to release that info
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Hmm... I dig the look of the international statistics. I wouldn't worry too much about the zergs being destroyed in the korean statistics. Not only is it a small sample size, it is taken from the very best of the best players over a very short period. That kind of sample selection is only going to show which race is dominating the meta-game right now, and we don't get a chance to see the pendulum swing the other way.
I'm not going to worry until we get about 3 months in a row of zergs getting abused in korea. And I play z.
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On August 01 2013 17:48 Elite_ wrote:Before more Zerg whining, please look at the July Premier Tournament results: IEM Shanghai - 1st Revival DreamHack Valencia - 1st HyuN, 2nd Jaedong, 3rd Goswser. Definitely reflected in these graphs.
It's so annoying when people bring up tournament finalists as a reliable statistic. Ofc more zergs will win tournaments, since there are more zerg players. Also, tournament winners is a pretty bad statistic overall since the sample size is so incredible low, and it doesn't factor in tournament participants, structure, or how any of the other games during the tournament played out.
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The hardest thing about interpreting statistics like this is that it doesn't tell the whole story. Savior had success in broodwar zvt when pretty much no one else was winning and terran seemed extreme imba. If you are a zerg or random player, the ZvT matchup FEELS imbalanced/too easy for Terran. I will be honest that my zerg is not my most skilled race and that Terran is my best, but it's more than just that, it takes zero skill to plant mines, stim and split vs banes which is pretty much 90% of the matchup right now.
In a way, the matchup is imba becuase Z can't even tech to hive safely vs a strong terran before 4 bases but once Z does secure 4 base and can go hive while defending with mutas, zerglings, banelings, the ultralisk switch afterwards feels just as imbalanced. The matchup is currently balanced for the highest levels of play, which means zergs like me who die to any amount of drops + frontal mine pushes are going to get mad as fuck every single game we play in the matchup. Seriously, it might not be imba but mines are a shitty fucking unit to play against and i wish that they were like in bw where they go away after shooting.. even if we gave them to free with hellions, then that's much better. but the way mines are currently designed is breaking the game at a casual level and forcing specific styles at a pro level. I think it's time to address the widow mine with balance changes, i play as R at about 1k masters and have played Terran since wings of liberty.
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On August 05 2013 02:07 c0sm0naut wrote: The hardest thing about interpreting statistics like this is that it doesn't tell the whole story. If you are a zerg or random player, the ZvT matchup FEELS imbalanced/too easy for Terran. I will be honest that my zerg is not my most skilled race and that Terran is my best, but it's more than just that, it takes zero skill to plant mines, stim and split vs banes which is pretty much 90% of the matchup right now.
In a way, the matchup is imba becuase Z can't even tech to hive safely vs a strong terran before 4 bases but once Z does secure 4 base and can go hive while defending with mutas, zerglings, banelings, the ultralisk switch afterwards feels just as imbalanced. The matchup is currently balanced for the highest levels of play, which means zergs like me who die to any amount of drops + frontal mine pushes are going to get mad as fuck every single game we play in the matchup. Seriously, it might not be imba but mines are a shitty fucking unit to play against and i wish that they were like in bw where they go away after shooting.. even if we gave them to free with hellions, then that's much better. but the way mines are currently designed is breaking the game at a casual level and forcing specific styles at a pro level. I think it's time to address the widow mine with balance changes, i play as R at about 1k masters and have played Terran since wings of liberty.
Did i read it correctly that it takes zero skill to split vs banes?
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On August 05 2013 02:10 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 02:07 c0sm0naut wrote: The hardest thing about interpreting statistics like this is that it doesn't tell the whole story. If you are a zerg or random player, the ZvT matchup FEELS imbalanced/too easy for Terran. I will be honest that my zerg is not my most skilled race and that Terran is my best, but it's more than just that, it takes zero skill to plant mines, stim and split vs banes which is pretty much 90% of the matchup right now.
In a way, the matchup is imba becuase Z can't even tech to hive safely vs a strong terran before 4 bases but once Z does secure 4 base and can go hive while defending with mutas, zerglings, banelings, the ultralisk switch afterwards feels just as imbalanced. The matchup is currently balanced for the highest levels of play, which means zergs like me who die to any amount of drops + frontal mine pushes are going to get mad as fuck every single game we play in the matchup. Seriously, it might not be imba but mines are a shitty fucking unit to play against and i wish that they were like in bw where they go away after shooting.. even if we gave them to free with hellions, then that's much better. but the way mines are currently designed is breaking the game at a casual level and forcing specific styles at a pro level. I think it's time to address the widow mine with balance changes, i play as R at about 1k masters and have played Terran since wings of liberty. Did i read it correctly that it takes zero skill to split vs banes?
yes, ive been playing terran since launch of wol and random since launch of hots, stimming and clicking the patrol key away from banelings does not take much skill. maybe zero is the wrong word, but when plat level micro is the crux of terran play in the matchup we have a problem
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On August 05 2013 02:10 keglu wrote: Did i read it correctly that it takes zero skill to split vs banes? Didn't you know that all Terrans were suddenly granted Automaton 2000 micro in HotS?
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As protoss suffers the most by being figured out I am more than okay having protoss a bit favored as they will probably go down in winrates soon as their new timings and plays get figured out
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On August 05 2013 02:12 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 02:10 keglu wrote:On August 05 2013 02:07 c0sm0naut wrote: The hardest thing about interpreting statistics like this is that it doesn't tell the whole story. If you are a zerg or random player, the ZvT matchup FEELS imbalanced/too easy for Terran. I will be honest that my zerg is not my most skilled race and that Terran is my best, but it's more than just that, it takes zero skill to plant mines, stim and split vs banes which is pretty much 90% of the matchup right now.
In a way, the matchup is imba becuase Z can't even tech to hive safely vs a strong terran before 4 bases but once Z does secure 4 base and can go hive while defending with mutas, zerglings, banelings, the ultralisk switch afterwards feels just as imbalanced. The matchup is currently balanced for the highest levels of play, which means zergs like me who die to any amount of drops + frontal mine pushes are going to get mad as fuck every single game we play in the matchup. Seriously, it might not be imba but mines are a shitty fucking unit to play against and i wish that they were like in bw where they go away after shooting.. even if we gave them to free with hellions, then that's much better. but the way mines are currently designed is breaking the game at a casual level and forcing specific styles at a pro level. I think it's time to address the widow mine with balance changes, i play as R at about 1k masters and have played Terran since wings of liberty. Did i read it correctly that it takes zero skill to split vs banes? yes, ive been playing terran since launch of wol and random since launch of hots, stimming and clicking the patrol key away from banelings does not take much skill. maybe zero is the wrong word, but when plat level micro is the crux of terran play in the matchup we have a problem How come even Code S Terrans sometimes lose clump of Marines to Banelings then? Surely this should never happen if the micro required is "plat level"?
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On August 05 2013 02:12 c0sm0naut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 02:10 keglu wrote:On August 05 2013 02:07 c0sm0naut wrote: The hardest thing about interpreting statistics like this is that it doesn't tell the whole story. If you are a zerg or random player, the ZvT matchup FEELS imbalanced/too easy for Terran. I will be honest that my zerg is not my most skilled race and that Terran is my best, but it's more than just that, it takes zero skill to plant mines, stim and split vs banes which is pretty much 90% of the matchup right now.
In a way, the matchup is imba becuase Z can't even tech to hive safely vs a strong terran before 4 bases but once Z does secure 4 base and can go hive while defending with mutas, zerglings, banelings, the ultralisk switch afterwards feels just as imbalanced. The matchup is currently balanced for the highest levels of play, which means zergs like me who die to any amount of drops + frontal mine pushes are going to get mad as fuck every single game we play in the matchup. Seriously, it might not be imba but mines are a shitty fucking unit to play against and i wish that they were like in bw where they go away after shooting.. even if we gave them to free with hellions, then that's much better. but the way mines are currently designed is breaking the game at a casual level and forcing specific styles at a pro level. I think it's time to address the widow mine with balance changes, i play as R at about 1k masters and have played Terran since wings of liberty. Did i read it correctly that it takes zero skill to split vs banes? yes, ive been playing terran since launch of wol and random since launch of hots, stimming and clicking the patrol key away from banelings does not take much skill. maybe zero is the wrong word, but when plat level micro is the crux of terran play in the matchup we have a problem
Thats interesting since i always considered marines spliting againts banes most impressive micro there is and usually in pro games still players dont split good enough with few exceptions. But you master player who learned spliting in platinum so i must be wrong here. Also i would assume that similiar micro would be required to counter widow mines.
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A simple way to make mines more micro intensive would be to make the unit a fieldmine launcher. Like a creeptumor mechanic.
This way, to have minefield you need constant micro of your units: burrowing it somwhere, landing mines, unburrowing etc...
What is cool with that will be that minefield like in BW will happen. So it could be a good start when meching (or with any style) to have few of them for defense then get rid of most. But it'll weakend a lot the 4M constant push : the mine itself does not do damage, but her launched one do.
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On August 05 2013 02:16 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2013 02:12 c0sm0naut wrote:On August 05 2013 02:10 keglu wrote:On August 05 2013 02:07 c0sm0naut wrote: The hardest thing about interpreting statistics like this is that it doesn't tell the whole story. If you are a zerg or random player, the ZvT matchup FEELS imbalanced/too easy for Terran. I will be honest that my zerg is not my most skilled race and that Terran is my best, but it's more than just that, it takes zero skill to plant mines, stim and split vs banes which is pretty much 90% of the matchup right now.
In a way, the matchup is imba becuase Z can't even tech to hive safely vs a strong terran before 4 bases but once Z does secure 4 base and can go hive while defending with mutas, zerglings, banelings, the ultralisk switch afterwards feels just as imbalanced. The matchup is currently balanced for the highest levels of play, which means zergs like me who die to any amount of drops + frontal mine pushes are going to get mad as fuck every single game we play in the matchup. Seriously, it might not be imba but mines are a shitty fucking unit to play against and i wish that they were like in bw where they go away after shooting.. even if we gave them to free with hellions, then that's much better. but the way mines are currently designed is breaking the game at a casual level and forcing specific styles at a pro level. I think it's time to address the widow mine with balance changes, i play as R at about 1k masters and have played Terran since wings of liberty. Did i read it correctly that it takes zero skill to split vs banes? yes, ive been playing terran since launch of wol and random since launch of hots, stimming and clicking the patrol key away from banelings does not take much skill. maybe zero is the wrong word, but when plat level micro is the crux of terran play in the matchup we have a problem How come even Code S Terrans sometimes lose clump of Marines to Banelings then? Surely this should never happen if the micro required is "plat level"? because zergs split their banelings to different clumps of marines too, flank terrans and often catch them by surprise during macro cycles (Did you watch soulkey vs innovation, he split his banes into like 6 groups? He also counters with huge amounts of units RIGHT before moving in with his army on innov main force because he KNOWS he will be distracted). the fact of the matter is that if code S terrans were never surprised they would always split efficiently simply because it is really not that difficult, i see excellent splitting in my average ladder games because hitting stim and moving units around is really not as hard as people make it out to be. engaging into mines takes more micro, unless you play Zerg as well it is really hard to comment on this from your perspectiv
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engaging into mines takes more micro, unless you play Zerg as well it is really hard to comment on this from your perspectiv
I play Z as well as T. And patrol shift split do WONDERS to play against mines. But patrol split for terran. It's just a good way to clump your marines unless the Z does not have any lings in his army.
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Do people even watch progames? Cause it's actually pretty rare to have a big game changing mine hit, way rarer than big banes hits. If you add all the friendly fire terrans get from mines, you can hardly complain about them. They force micro, true, but is it bad? No. The big hits often happen on a mindless clumped a move, which everybody complains about (remember the arguments against the warhound? no micro amove unit #1 yeah). The matchup is great to watch and play from both sides, unless you liked your infestors a move F. If you watched Taeja games at ASUS ROG, even though his play was really awesome, the games didn't look one sided. And if you call his micro plat level, then I don't know what I can do for you. Muta ling banes is still very potent and hard to deal with as T, the army control is still hard as T, and now it is hard as Z. Good thing, that's all.
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On August 05 2013 02:59 Nimix wrote: Do people even watch progames? Cause it's actually pretty rare to have a big game changing mine hit, way rarer than big banes hits. If you add all the friendly fire terrans get from mines, you can hardly complain about them. They force micro, true, but is it bad? No. The big hits often happen on a mindless clumped a move, which everybody complains about (remember the arguments against the warhound? no micro amove unit #1 yeah). The matchup is great to watch and play from both sides, unless you liked your infestors a move F. If you watched Taeja games at ASUS ROG, even though his play was really awesome, the games didn't look one sided. And if you call his micro plat level, then I don't know what I can do for you. Muta ling banes is still very potent and hard to deal with as T, the army control is still hard as T, and now it is hard as Z. Good thing, that's all.
when did i directly mention taeja? his micro is CODE S level, but that's something that is not a req against baneling zergling imo. Banelings have a low skill ceiling, microing against them is really not difficult man. if you have to split perfectly in every TvZ you play you're not macroing well enough or are not doing any drops to split his army, maybe letting him get your mine charges for free with a few units instead of microing those as well. muta ling bane is potent still because it forces mines to be defensive (some of them) and terran to play some amount of defense as well instead of just bludgeoning you off 3CCs until you die or he runs out of money.its also the most fluid transition into the lategame because it's the only one that can actually defend medivacs. the pace at which you can put pressure on a zerg, its almost a rule now that if his mutalisks are on your side of the map, you're doing something wrong, or you're doing something right and he's about to take a shit ton of damge from a drop while not be able to break your defense
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Havent paid much attention in the last couple months.. but Protoss highest winrate ?!
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Well, taeja said that zerg was worst atm, seems to be backed up
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On August 07 2013 07:43 Prplppleatr wrote: Well, taeja said that zerg was worst atm, seems to be backed up
And 3 weeks ago protoss was considered the weakest. 3 weeks later it's zerg. Maybe in a few weeks terran? If people keep looking at 2-3 korean tournaments to determine if the game is balanced, then this shit will happen forever. Week 1 zerg is bad, week 2 terran and week 3 protoss.
Try to take a look at the bigger picture: - Korean GM: http://nios.kr/sc2/kr/1v1/hots/grandmaster/ - http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/hots/individual-leagues TLPD
That's also a part of the higher levels. But people want to focus on WCS KR and OSL. So if innovation and flash do well, then terran is imba. Then a few weeks later SoS and Parting stomp everyone: protoss is OP! Then a few weeks later Hyun and Jaedong destroy the scene and hey: zerg is OP!
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