July Winrates! - Page 3
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Grovbolle
Denmark3803 Posts
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Traceback
United States469 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:05 Grovbolle wrote: For reference: TvZ: 51.5% (1394 games) PvT: 50.8% (1326 games) PvZ: 48.5% (1717 games) From http://aligulac.com/reports This should be in the OP. | ||
Steel
Japan2283 Posts
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ETisME
12083 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote: Not according to Aligulac I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. all the assets? yea what asset is available at lair tech to fight against bio terran? ZvP has utilize both swarmhosts and speed hydra and viper | ||
BamBam
745 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote: Not according to Aligulac I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. A lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats because its the only thing available to them. You cannot expect zerg to go swarmhosts against a non-meching terran, or even ling/infestor with how many undeserved nerfs the infestor took. All that is left is either muta/ling bane to stop these mass marine/widow mine pushes from terran and hope you can delay for ultra, or hydra/roach (which is terrible as it makes you weaker in the late game). You want zerg to move on from wol strats? Give zerg some better options. | ||
PresenceSc2
Australia4032 Posts
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Noocta
France12574 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:21 Za7oX wrote: They should have left the baneling burrow move in! :D Oh god, don't even remind me this existed.. | ||
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote: Not according to Aligulac I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. lol shows how much you pay attention to zerg. In zvt, I have tried swarmhosts a lot, and if you go swarmhosts drop play murders you. If you go ling/infestor you get crushed by bio/mine because infestors aren't as good as they used to be. Like you act like we zergs are just sticking to wol strats, no if that were true we would be doing ling/infestor into bl/corr/infestor. No zergs are experimenting and trying other stuff, but non muta play in zvt makes zvt a lot harder. zvp you see lots of zerg uses with vipers/swarmhosts/mutalisks/etc. Like I don't think you know what you are talkinga bout. | ||
F.O.A.D.
Canada100 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:08 docvoc wrote: Not according to Aligulac I'm inclined to believe both, but it's hard for me not to take aligulac as the more trustworthy source. Also, zerg isn't UP, I don't see them using all the assets given to them in HoTS yet at all, a lot of zergs are sticking to WoL strats and the other two races have moved on a lot more. This is precisely the response I would expect from an ignorant non-Z-player. Your 'argument' is predictable; expected, really; lazy, grossly overused, and just plain wrong and, quite frankly, an insult to top-end KR Z-players. Tell me, when was the last time a Z won a macro game vT in OSL/GS(T)L/SPL? Spectators of top-end SC2 who've never played, must wonder why anyone in their right mind would ever want to play Z. | ||
F.O.A.D.
Canada100 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3174 Posts
+ Korean Zerg has never been the greatest of innovators except maybe Leenock and a few others, so might take them awhile to come up with new stuff, if it's even necessary. | ||
scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On August 01 2013 10:04 DeathProfessor wrote: I rolled my eyes at the Zerg but hmm maybe they are slightly UP, not really sure where this comes from. I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world | ||
ETisME
12083 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:39 scypio wrote: I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world because when fruitdealer won the first GSL the game was balanced. | ||
scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:43 ETisME wrote: because when fruitdealer won the first GSL the game was balanced. It is not about one player anymore, the last 4 tournaments I listed were won by Hyun, Revival, Snute and Life, that is four different guys. Also, there are many ways to do stats, I like my own little ro8 premier tournaments participation summary: (foreiner number in the brackets). Enjoy:
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F.O.A.D.
Canada100 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:39 scypio wrote: I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world ^ Welcome to ignorance. When will people realize that foreign tourneys with lackluster player pools are irrelevant (I suppose, unfortunately, not so long as the consideration of such frivolous stats favors their race because they're shamelessly biased)? Also, we shouldn't just be examining win/loss ratios superficially; but also the nature of said wins/losses. "Don't worry guys, ZvT is balanced, Z just have to Roach/Bling bust to win." Except, in this case, at the top-end, the winrates aren't even balanced, rendering your 'argument' as even more invalid. | ||
TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
Korean stats, although a statistically acceptable numbet of games, its still too small and "corrupted" from individual results. As for the international stats, i cant take them seriously as alot are simply complete mismatches or just evenly matched terible players (relative to the top performers) duking out ladder quality games. Rather id like to see some analysis done on how often and to what success each race is utilising new mechanics and units from the expansion. Might shine some light as to what exactly has changed statistically from wol games | ||
scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:53 F.O.A.D. wrote: ^ Welcome to ignorance. When will people realize that foreign tourneys with lackluster player pools are irrelevant (I suppose, unfortunately, not so long as the consideration of such frivolous stats favors their race because they're shamelessly biased)? Also, we shouldn't just be examining win/loss ratios superficially; but also the nature of said wins/losses. "Don't worry guys, ZvT is balanced, Z just have to Roach/Bling bust to win." Except, in this case, at the top-end, the winrates aren't even balanced, rendering your 'argument' as even more invalid. Sorry, but I'm watching all these crap foreign premier tournaments as they are responsible for most of my SC2 spectator experience. So I'm going to leave them in. | ||
TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On August 01 2013 15:39 scypio wrote: I think you did not get the latest zerg memo on the correct way of interpreting race's performance. Here it is, taken from the dreaded Designated Balance Discussion Thread: "Top zerg players competing in premier tournaments outnumber top terran players competing with them 4:1". Now that is a real eyeopener! See, up to this day I looked at results that said: T: 5 tournaments won Z: 5 tournaments won P: 2 tournaments won and thought: "T and Z are doing pretty well and the protoss is trailing behind". Wrong - even when zerg is winning everything there is recently (DH, IEM, Red Bull Batllegrounds, RSL V...). You need to factor in the 4:1 ratio. So: T:5, Z:5, P: 2 = Zerg UP, Terran OP, David Kim heeeelp! T:2 Z:8 P:2 = Balanced Welcome to the zerg world Erm, if top zerg outnumber top terran in the tournaments then to factor in the 4:1 ratio you would go the other way, no? So itd be more like: T:8 Z:2 P:2? I am not saying I even come close to agreeing with you, but your method seems off. | ||
Insoleet
France1806 Posts
Some timings are killing zergs, but as in WoL, its just a matter of time before zerg find a solution to most of Hots timings that could kill them. Just look at the 3 Stargate voidray tactic. Do we see it often nowadays ? Not really. As zerg, i'm find with the current state of the game (mmmmh... rr well, not with the 1gate expand into 4 gates MsC but its probably because i'm bad :D) | ||
scypio
Poland2127 Posts
On August 01 2013 16:02 TheRabidDeer wrote: Erm, if top zerg outnumber top terran in the tournaments then to factor in the 4:1 ratio you would go the other way, no? So itd be more like: T:8 Z:2 P:2? I am not saying I even come close to agreeing with you, but your method seems off. Let's say there are 10 tournaments and the only good players participating in each of them are Soulkey, Hyun, Revival, Jeadong and Polt. I would expect the zergs to take 8 of them and Polt taking 2 max. Otherwise the zerg is UP | ||
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