At last we're at the business end of the fourth TeamLiquid Map Contest. We were once again fortunate to be able to work with Blizzard on this contest and they will be considering the winning maps for use for WCS Season 3. This season threw a curve ball at the map making community, requesting that they only submit 3-5 player maps for the contest. The result of that was one of the most diverse and interesting set of maps we've seen in a while.
But as multi-spawn maps introduce new complications above simple 2 player maps, we knew balance was going to be something that would need to be carefully examined before being considered by Blizzard. This new challenge for whomever the judges were resulted in us reaching out to the TeamLiquid Strategy team to perform the bulk of the judging duties this season. Our faith in the Strategy team was not misplaced, and they thoroughly examined and tested the potential finalists over the last week and a bit. The result is a set of balanced and interesting finalists that we're excited for you to play on.
We strongly encourage everyone to look at the larger overviews of the maps before casting their vote, simply click on the map image to be taken to a high resolution version of the map. The 1v1 maps also contain comments from the Strategy team about how they expect the map to play out as well as providing insight as to what they saw in each of the maps. But before we give you the results, we would like to explain the judging process that the maps went through this season.
You'll have an opportunity to vote for your favourite maps at the end of this post. Votes will be open until Monday, May 05 12:00am GMT (GMT+00:00).
All of the maps will be shortly uploaded to Battle.net and can be found by searching for the [TLMC] tag.
Judging Process
As with every season of TLMC, the maps were initially screened for quality so that the judges could have a manageable list of maps to fully evaluate. The screening process whittled down the entries to approximately 25 1v1 maps and 12 team maps. The maps were arranged in a spreadsheet containing no information which would identify the maps are belonging to any particular author as to avoid any author biases.
At this point the TL Strategy team took over the judging process. They carefully considered each of the shortlisted maps and eventually settled upon 12 1v1 maps that they wished to test extensively and which team play maps they wanted to put through. The 12 1v1 maps were extensively played by the whole team with an aim to assessing balance and whether or not the maps features were viable or not. At the conclusion of this process the TL Strategy team had settled on 5 1v1 maps which they felt were balanced and enjoyable to play on.
With the judging process now explained, I'm proud to present the finalists for this season of the TeamLiquid Map Contest.
TLMC 4 Finalists (1v1)
KTV Foxtrot Labs by Uvantak
The least standard map in final voting, Foxtrot represents quite possibly, the greatest push towards "non-standard" that doesn't rely on gimmicks, poor map design, or by providing any one race an overwhelming advantage over another. The map structure with two high ground lanes in the centre is reminiscent of Cloud Kingdom, one of the greatest maps in StarCraft 2 history, and the winner of the first TLMC.
The base layout is non-intuitive and provides for a lot of strategic depth. For now, we believe the map's main focus will be securing one of the main ridges on the map providing control over various attack paths and protecting most of your bases on the low ground. Keep in mind, there are no vertical spawns on this map, which might take some getting used to. Mining out a gold base does more than provide you with minerals on this map, it gives you an additional attack path. However, the gold base is extremely exposed, making the choice to take it a tactical one. Cross positions will also give a slightly different set of tactical choices and attack paths compared to spawning horizontally making this map almost like a two in one map without relying on top/bottom vs left/right asymmetry.
Deadwing by JessicaSc2
The most macro oriented map in the pool of finalists, Deadwing provides players with a fairly straightforward progression of bases starting with the natural up to the fifth base. Its a large, open map that can punish attacks that are poorly thought out, or well scouted especially in cross positions. In horizontal and vertical positions, dedicated attacks are more likely to succeed due to the narrower attack paths but at the cost of counter attacks becoming more powerful. The central architecture is also varied enough that once you have a large army you can account for flanks and counter attacks when moving across the map regardless of spawn position. The destructible rocks leading into the natural from both sides also provide a strategic depth and variety we are excited to see play out on this map.
CJ Biome by NemRaC
Biome is a an extremely unique map as it is the only five player map we have ever seen. With forced cross positions, you will always have two bases to scout in order to find your opponent. Rotational symmetry often leads to concerns regarding the third and fourth bases favouring one spawn over another. Surprisingly, Biome seems to break this curse by making everyone's third and fourth bases relatively easy to take and forcing cross spawns.
Well, with easy third and fourth bases you might assume that the games are boring with a lot of turtle play however the air space in this map ensures that this cannot happen. You cannot simply contain your opponent to 4 bases and take the rest of the map. The 360 degree air space you need to defend poses a challenge to turtle play we haven't quite yet seen in StarCraft 2 to date. Warp prisms, dropships, and mutalisks will always be in the back of your mind while playing on this map. The large center also provides a lot of options to outmaneuver any attempt at a contain. Playing this map is all about controlling the center area while staying protected against the gigantic airspace around your four bases.
Catallena by Timmay
Catellena is the only three player map in the final round of voting and has spawn positions located at 1, 5 and 9. Three player maps naturally give one player a spawn advantage over his opponent and often result in aggressive strategies being used. The rotational symmetry naturally gives players the spawn advantage going in a counter-clockwise direction; meaning easy access to both the forward 3rd directly below the main and an easy access ridge toward the other 3rd. Given that the initial main to main rush distances are quite long, but third base distances being quite near, we at TLStrat foresee a lot of strategies on this map revolving around denying third bases. Protoss players will have a slightly more difficult time taking their third on this map but it is by no means impossible. Zerg players will find that as the game goes longer, their bases become increasingly difficult to defend as they get closer to the center of the map.
Plus the octopus looks fantastic
KTV Kamala Park by Uvantak
Kamala Park, like waystation, is a two in one map. Players will always spawn in cross positions, but top left/bottom right (industrial) spawns will provide a different architecture than top right/bottom left (grassy) spawns on the map. The two different starting positions on Kamala Park play similarly to one another but the slight differences provide just enough variation without creating positional imbalances that greatly favour any single race. A good mix of open space and ramps in the centre of the map will emphasize strong positioning when entering into any engagement.
The high ground third base is an interesting aspect of the map. The "industrial" spawn position will find the high ground third more difficult to take, as the destructible debris needs to be destroyed in order to make it more easily defensible when taken early. In the "grassy" spawn positions, the third base is easier to take, with the dcestructible debris making it easier to hold against aggression. The high ground third also provides strong defensive options thanks to the ramp. Losing control of this high ground gives your opponent a very powerful forward position to attack you from making its defence absolutely critical in a macro game. Free airspace on the edges of the map is also limited making drop play more difficult to hide from your opponent, weakening harass oriented play on this map considerably.
TLMC 4 Finalists (Team)
Lava Storm (2v2) by lefix
Features: - Shared mains, 2 spawn locations - Map is split in half, connected by small paths - Teams can choose to defend both halves or focus on controlling one side - Islands have gold bases if teams are confident they can control the mainland
AEM Solar Flare (2v2) by NewSunshine
Features: - Shared mains, 4 spawn locations - Naturals are disconnected from each other - This disconnect can make them more difficult to defend from combined attacks - Long term the game will revolve around controlling the high ground
Korhal Carnage (2v2) by Sidianthebard
Features: - Shared mains, forced cross position - Most aggressive map to make the final list - Naturals are difficult to take which creates an emphasis on one base play - There are many destructible rocks which can be used to close or open passages
AEM Preservation (2v2) by Timetwister22
Features: - Shared mains, 2 spawn locations - Modern take on the classic 2v2 map formula - Each team has an in-base natural that one of the team members can take - Teams will naturally expand through their half of the map resulting in longer macro oriented games - The four most central expansions are gold bases and are more difficult to secure
AEM Lunar Curtain (3v3) by NewSunshine
Features: - Separate mains, 2 spawn positions - Spawn positions are 1, 2, 11 vs 5, 7, 8 - Spawn positions will have a big influence on how you choose to play the map - The 5 and 11 positions are more isolated from the rest of the maps and will often play more macro oriented - The 1 and 7 positions are the most exposed, and will need to secure an important choke point to expand - The 2 and 8 positions have an easy to take natural, but will need to break through destructible rocks to reliably assist the team
Sacred Path by IeZaeL
Features: - Separate mains, teams spawn on the same side of the divide - Inspired by the famous 2v2 map 'Iron Curtain' by 송기범 (skb9728_CyGnus) - Massive wall of destructible rocks makes the center as open or as closed as teams wish - Gold bases are highly risky to take, but become vital to control in the late game - Currently featured in TotalBiscuit's SHOUTcraft clan wars
Have your say!
Now that you've had a chance to see the finalists, it's time for the public to have their say on what maps they think are the best. Remember, high placing maps will be considered for use in the ladder by Blizzard so a vote for your favorite map may mean that you'll see that map in a future ladder season!
Thank you for voting! Results will be available as soon as possible.
Completely disagree with all of the finalists except Foxtrot Labs, Solar Flare, Sacred Path, and Kamala Park. I particularly dislike Deadwing since it's really ugly and sort of boring.
I would like to know what the thought processes behind not choosing my 2v2 map were if that's ok. Sorry for the negative comment, I just didn't like a lot of the choices for finalists.
On April 30 2014 09:59 The_Templar wrote: Completely disagree with all of the finalists except Foxtrot Labs, Solar Flare, Sacred Path, and Kamala Park. I particularly dislike Deadwing since it's really ugly and sort of boring.
I would like to know what the thought processes behind not choosing my 2v2 map were if that's ok. Sorry for the negative comment, I just didn't like a lot of the choices for finalists.
I dunno... for Deadwing... though I do agree that it seems a bit generic, I do think that there is room for a solid big macro map. I would take Deadwing over Alterzim.
Though I do wish there was at least 1 smaller/micro/low income(edit: low income as in less bases, or harder bases, not "crazy" stuff like FRB or even half bases) map in the finalists - two maps (Deadwing and CJ) have 20 bases each!.
Of course, the opinions of the people who actually tested the maps for a week have a lot more weight than mine. Maybe none of the small maps they tested actually worked in practice.
Some reasons Solar Flare needs to be picked for team games: 1. Only 3 other maps in the ladder pool have ever used a 2v2v2v2 setup 2. Gold bases and Rocks everywhere 3. Shared bases but also has size-1 ramps for standard wall-offs 4. This: + Show Spoiler +
1) With rush distances from main to main long but from third to third short, you can always expect a high octane macro game on this map. Who doesn't love seeing insane multitasking and aggression in tournament play?
2) The center pillars with the cliffs poking in between them make for a myriad of different possible mid-map engagements. Army movement is an art on this map, and the micro you will see in large scale engagements is like nothing we've seen before.
3) It's got the perfect balance between air space and ground space. Air play is strong, but not the de-facto greatest possible strategy. Having variance in possible playstyle on each map makes it more fun to watch as each game can be different.
4) You think those cliffs above the natural are imbalanced for siege tanks? Think again. The map maker is so smart and awesome that he knew that those cliffs should be unpathable.
5) It's got a motherfucking octopus flair in the middle. You thought the space shark was a cool mark? How about a gigantic octopus. There's a reason sharks don't fuck with these bastards that can strangle the shit out of them. Especially when they are 50x bigger.
6) Do you see rocks anywhere? No? It's because this map is wicked without them. There are no gimmicks needed, and please let there be one map on the ladder that doesn't have speed bumps in gameplay.
7) Catallena is the name of a KPOP album. It is a known fact that all starcraft players love kpop regardless of cultural background. This should be enough to convince you that Catallena is the next Daybreak. But instead of eventually becoming imbalanced and too repetitive, Catallena will consistently rock your socks off over the next few seasons.
On April 30 2014 10:51 TheFish7 wrote: Some reasons Solar Flare needs to be picked for team games: 1. Only 3 other maps in the ladder pool have ever used a 2v2v2v2 setup 2. Gold bases and Rocks everywhere 3. Shared bases but also has size-1 ramps for standard wall-offs 4. This: + Show Spoiler +
I have a hard time imagining how those 1v1 maps are going to play out (and I'm surely not the only one). I take it that there won't be a TLMC tournament this time? So most people will decide on a whim based on looks...
CJBiome. A completely flat (except for the mains) map without any chokes whatsoever?
CJ Biome is awesome! Deadwing sucks... free 3 bases? I'll pass. Hell, you could just wall off the 3rd and be fine. Catallena looks really chokey, same with Kamala Park despite it looking GORGEOUS. I think my favorite though is Foxtrot, as they mentioned it is extremely similar to Cloud Kingdom, probably my favorite map of all time.
On April 30 2014 09:59 The_Templar wrote: Completely disagree with all of the finalists except Foxtrot Labs, Solar Flare, Sacred Path, and Kamala Park. I particularly dislike Deadwing since it's really ugly and sort of boring.
I would like to know what the thought processes behind not choosing my 2v2 map were if that's ok. Sorry for the negative comment, I just didn't like a lot of the choices for finalists.
I dunno... for Deadwing... though I do agree that it seems a bit generic, I do think that there is room for a solid big macro map. I would take Deadwing over Alterzim.
Though I do wish there was at least 1 smaller/micro/low income(edit: low income as in less bases, or harder bases, not "crazy" stuff like FRB or even half bases) map in the finalists - two maps (Deadwing and CJ) have 20 bases each!.
Of course, the opinions of the people who actually tested the maps for a week have a lot more weight than mine. Maybe none of the small maps they tested actually worked in practice.
Deadwing is a little generic, I can agree with that. But it's still a decently designed map with rather interesting concepts that make it worth playing on. The center area of biome and the massive amounts of air play available actually make it fairly difficult to get a 5th and 6th base easily too.
If you want a smaller map, Kamala Park and Catallena definitely provide some challenges for taking the third, especially as Protoss. Those maps definitely play out a lot more aggressively (2-3 base heavy aggression) than the others you mentioned.
Glad to hear that mostly everyone approves of the maps thus far!
On April 30 2014 11:30 S1eth wrote: I have a hard time imagining how those 1v1 maps are going to play out (and I'm surely not the only one). I take it that there won't be a TLMC tournament this time? So most people will decide on a whim based on looks...
CJBiome. A completely flat (except for the mains) map without any chokes whatsoever?
Like it says in the description, we expect air play to be fairly common on Biome, meaning that terrain plays a rather smaller role in the overall gameplay. This map relies a lot on either really solid timings or lots of multi-tasking with drops/air harass, so it's less likely that both players will turtle on 4 bases forever.
Wow, not what I would've expected from this contest. Now lets see what we can smacktalk about these maps..
Kamala - The 2 most stanard 4p maps cut together but with some twists in the center. I think. Kinda hard to see from this view. Exciting.
Catallena - Could be renamed to "Trying to make a 3player map symmetrical".
Biome - Everything's just so.. smooshed together. You can defend 4 bases with 4 Siege Tanks and harass 3 bases from safe distance with some ranged units. Also, have fun Zergs, defending against Medivac play between your main and 3rd.
Deadwing - Huge, turtly, not big on innovation and boring in the center. The decals are awesome though. All kinda reminds me of maps 2 years ago.
Foxtrot - Kinda like it. Reminds me of CK a bit. Just not sure about the golds. To me the only map that looks like a finalist.
Looks like this time the 2v2 maps win the contest.
1. Foxtrot Labs: Center terrain and gold base setup is good. Make it cross spawns only (2 in 1) and it would be a decent enough map - but horizontal spawns really need to be disabled though, right now the map is literally just plain asymmetrical in that configuration. 2. Kamala Park: Best aesthetics of all the finalists. The main/nat/3rd setup is generic and taking 5 bases is too easy, but I like the layout of the ramps throughout the center. Also the base count, at 14, is actually reasonable (hint: if you have 20 bases you're doing it wrong), and it's more likely that the entire map will be used. 3. Catallena: Pretty standard/boring design, nice octopus though. It's a solid map but there's not really anything this map does that Merry Go Round doesn't already do equally as well. 4. Deadwing: Bases are all too close and there are too many of them (see: above hint). 4 or even 5 base turtle is easier than Alterzim. Pushing through the backdoor in close positions could also be a problem. 5. Biome: I honestly have no clue how this one got picked. 4 base turtle is even easier than Deadwing - your 4th is as easy as the 3rd to take. Sure defending against air harass is harder, but that's irrelevant when you can defend 4 bases by literally parking your army in 1 spot with 0 movement required. The aesthetics also aren't good - creating 5 distinct areas with only 8 textures isn't really feasible. All the areas have only 1 or 2 textures and as a result look extremely bland.
Overall I'm disappointed with the finalist selection, it's pretty clear that the TL strategy team isn't as willing to experiment as most mapmakers. Maps have only been getting larger, more macro oriented, and turtly and I can't recall hearing a single person support this trend, yet 2 of 5 finalists have 20 bases while none are 12 base/low eco. This just reinforces the trend rather than testing new ways to break it while preserving balance - which should be the entire point of contests like this.
At least the team maps are good, I wouldn't mind any of them getting added to the map pool.
Catallena, and Foxtrot look cool, but I'm not very impressed with the other 1v1 maps; Deadwing is just a huge macro map, Kamala doesn't stand out much, and Biome doesn't have much going for it except for being a 5 player map. As for 2v2 maps, gogogo Sacred Path.
TT cj biome or deadwing they both look soooooooooooooooooooooooooo awesome TT this is to hard but for game play i think i will go with deadwing but it pains me to not pick such a beautiful map as cj biome.i wish we could have them both TT, but again i think for tourneys and game play deadwing is better. god damn this is so hard gl to everyone
damn the more i look at these the more i like foxtrot as well and agree with everyone saying deadwing is kinda generic but i like it the most for ladder and tourney play but wouldnt mind foxtrot winning.
On April 30 2014 12:33 -NegativeZero- wrote: My ranking (best to worst):
1. Foxtrot Labs: Center terrain and gold base setup is good. Make it cross spawns only (2 in 1) and it would be a decent enough map - but horizontal spawns really need to be disabled though, right now the map is literally just plain asymmetrical in that configuration. 2. Kamala Park: Best aesthetics of all the finalists. The main/nat/3rd setup is generic and taking 5 bases is too easy, but I like the layout of the ramps throughout the center. Also the base count, at 14, is actually reasonable (hint: if you have 20 bases you're doing it wrong), and it's more likely that the entire map will be used. 3. Catallena: Pretty standard/boring design, nice octopus though. It's a solid map but there's not really anything this map does that Merry Go Round doesn't already do equally as well. 4. Deadwing: Bases are all too close and there are too many of them (see: above hint). 4 or even 5 base turtle is easier than Alterzim. Pushing through the backdoor in close positions could also be a problem. 5. Biome: I honestly have no clue how this one got picked. 4 base turtle is even easier than Deadwing - your 4th is as easy as the 3rd to take. Sure defending against air harass is harder, but that's irrelevant when you can defend 4 bases by literally parking your army in 1 spot with 0 movement required. The aesthetics also aren't good - creating 5 distinct areas with only 8 textures isn't really feasible. All the areas have only 1 or 2 textures and as a result look extremely bland.
Overall I'm rather disappointed with these finalists, it's pretty clear that the TL strategy team isn't as willing to experiment as most mapmakers. Maps have only been getting larger, more macro oriented, and turtly and I can't recall hearing a single person support this trend, yet 2 of 5 finalists have 20 bases while none are 12 base/low eco. This just reinforces the trend rather than testing new ways to break it while preserving balance - which should be the entire point of contests like this.
At least the team maps are good, I wouldn't mind any of them getting added to the map pool.
It's actually really hard to get 4 bases on Kamala and Catallena, and even taking a third is a bit difficult for some matchups (PvT, ZvT, ZvP). Five bases is almost completely out of the question, the maps are just too small. If you'd prefer more aggressive maps, Kamala and Catallena are the way to go. We're expecting to see a lot of 2-base all-ins and heavy 3-base aggression on these maps.
When testing these maps out, we were specifically looking for new and interesting ways to push balance while still maintaining playability. Simply put, we believe these maps fit that criteria while a lot of the other maps were either far too boring or completely unplayable. Remember that the winner of this contest can be selected for ladder; the last thing we need is another broken map like Yeonsu stuck in the map pool.
hmm, first one of these where I'm having a hard time. Cloud Kingdom and Frost were obvious winners in their respective contests, but not this time around.
It's between Foxtrot and Kamala Park as far as the 1v1 goes imo.
I suppose I'm leaning more towards Kamala since it seems more balanced and macro-oriented. Slight bonus points as well for looking the best aesthetically :p
Biome looks like an amazing map. Though they all look good. But biome in particular, it may seem like a wide open map but it seems the middle of the map is relatively restricted (for a ground army).
On April 30 2014 14:03 Ferisii wrote: http://i.imgur.com/htshxju.jpg Might wanna fix that. How did that get overlooked? Weren't the maps "thoroughly" tested?
On April 30 2014 14:22 LightSpectra wrote: I want CJ Biome to win so bad.
Though I worry a bit that every Z game will come down to mass mutas...
Honestly we were more concerned it would come down to mass swarm hosts. Every attack path concentrates on the center and it could get complicated weighing that part of the map against how good air is on this map as well.
On April 30 2014 14:22 LightSpectra wrote: I want CJ Biome to win so bad.
Though I worry a bit that every Z game will come down to mass mutas...
Honestly we were more concerned it would come down to mass swarm hosts. Every attack path concentrates on the center and it could get complicated weighing that part of the map against how good air is on this map as well.
This is also what I was thinking.
Protoss have their deathball and terran has mech though. It's kind of a weird map.
Wow, these all look pretty awesome. 360 degree airspace sounds insane to deal with in some situations for every race but I'm willing to try. Kamala Park is my favorite although it does seem a bit forcefieldy in some places
On April 30 2014 15:13 DarkLordOlli wrote: Wow, these all look pretty awesome. 360 degree airspace sounds insane to deal with in some situations for every race but I'm willing to try. Kamara Park is my favorite although it does seem a bit forcefieldy in some places
“He leans down and opens up Deadwing, his fingers still moving rhythmically inside the Terrain Editor, his thumb circling and pressing. His other hand places destructible debris outside the natural and third. His tongue mirrors the 4p symmetry of the map, claiming me. My legs begin to stiffen as I push against the monitor. He gently places Protoss decal swastikas, so I’m brought back from the brink … I come instantly again and again, falling apart beneath him … then I’m building again … I climax anew, calling out his name, JessicaSc2.” -Excerpt from my book, 5 Shades of Grey
On April 30 2014 15:20 R3mnant wrote: “He leans down and opens up Deadwing, his fingers still moving rhythmically inside the Terrain Editor, his thumb circling and pressing. His other hand places destructible debris outside the natural and third. His tongue mirrors the 4p symmetry of the map, claiming me. My legs begin to stiffen as I push against the monitor. He gently places Protoss decal swastikas, so I’m brought back from the brink … I come instantly again and again, falling apart beneath him … then I’m building again … I climax anew, calling out his name, JessicaSc2.” -Excerpt from my book, 5 Shades of Grey
Is it a bad sign if i recognized the original quote
Biome is a an extremely unique map as it is the only five player map we have ever seen.
Can't know your future if you don't know your past! City of the Damned from MotM 8 here.
three-times TLMC finalist here and I have to say that I am not impressed at all by the map pool presented here. I will post comments on all the 1on1 maps later today, showing why I think these maps won't have the impact other TLMC maps had before. but for now that quoted sentence and my comment just sums is up pretty well to be honest.
Excluding Foxtrot these maps are all bland/turtly as fuck. Honestly easy 4-5 bases is not what I like to see in SC2. From my point of view just about the worst finalists that could be picked (for comparison maps I liked best). Imo big mistake to let only TL strategy members pick maps and not have a balanced board of judges. Hell I mean when I judged the guy from TL strategy (monk) at least was very open to new interesting maps and not just too the turtly bland shit that makes everyone macro peacefully that was carefully chosen here.
Also no offense to NemRaC (I think you're relatively new) but if you think Biome looks good think again. In every area there is basically only 2 textures being used which greatly limits how well you can texture it. Also the texture work isn't even particularly good, the doodads are almost non-existant and the way textures come together in the middle.....
I hope the spawn locations, watch towers and rocks could be highlighted a bit clearer in the preview pictures. Same applies to the bnet loading screen map previews.
The theme of 5 of the team maps is the "two 1v1 maps in 1" as it separate attack paths to each of the player and making a x2 ramps main. Its nice to see the TLMC judges loving it, but that a lot of maps with the same design theme. (Its my opinion of course)
On April 30 2014 16:16 Ragoo wrote: Excluding Foxtrot these maps are all bland/turtly as fuck. Honestly easy 4-5 bases is not what I like to see in SC2. From my point of view just about the worst finalists that could be picked (for comparison maps I liked best). Imo big mistake to let only TL strategy members pick maps and not have a balanced board of judges. Hell I mean when I judged the guy from TL strategy (monk) at least was very open to new interesting maps and not just too the turtly bland shit that makes everyone macro peacefully that was carefully chosen here.
Also no offense to NemRaC (I think you're relatively new) but if you think Biome looks good think again. In every area there is basically only 2 textures being used which greatly limits how well you can texture it. Also the texture work isn't even particularly good, the doodads are almost non-existant and the way textures come together in the middle.....
The only two that are turtley are Deadwing (which we would want to replace alterzim) and Biome, which, as was mentioned, is chosen to promote a style of play we haven't really seen too often with the ridiculous amounts of air space to attack.
Catallena isn't a turtle map at all (in fact taking the third can be hard), Kamala isn't a turtle map, and even you agreed Foxtrot isn't a turtle map. So I don't understand your position at all. On all of these maps, early aggression is viable, it was tested.
Foxtrot Labs and Kamala Park look like Sentry/Immortal paradises. Deadwing is a huge map with 5easy bases, but not as open as Alterzim, so Ultralisk based play vs Protoss is even worse. It's either going to be a lot of SH play there, or easy Protoss wins in the lategame.
On April 30 2014 16:16 Ragoo wrote: Excluding Foxtrot these maps are all bland/turtly as fuck. Honestly easy 4-5 bases is not what I like to see in SC2. From my point of view just about the worst finalists that could be picked (for comparison maps I liked best). Imo big mistake to let only TL strategy members pick maps and not have a balanced board of judges. Hell I mean when I judged the guy from TL strategy (monk) at least was very open to new interesting maps and not just too the turtly bland shit that makes everyone macro peacefully that was carefully chosen here.
Also no offense to NemRaC (I think you're relatively new) but if you think Biome looks good think again. In every area there is basically only 2 textures being used which greatly limits how well you can texture it. Also the texture work isn't even particularly good, the doodads are almost non-existant and the way textures come together in the middle.....
The only two that are turtley are Deadwing (which we would want to replace alterzim) and Biome, which, as was mentioned, is chosen to promote a style of play we haven't really seen too often with the ridiculous amounts of air space to attack.
Catallena isn't a turtle map at all (in fact taking the third can be hard), Kamala isn't a turtle map, and even you agreed Foxtrot isn't a turtle map. So I don't understand your position at all. On all of these maps, early aggression is viable, it was tested.
Why does there have to be a heavy turtle map at all?
Also he said the maps are turtley and/or bland. Deadwing and Biome are turtley, Catallena and (arguably) Kamala are bland (personally I think Kamala isn't bad, but I can see why others would disagree).
Foxtrot and Biome have some interesting mechanics that I've never played with. Kamala Park looks god damn pretty. I'd be happy with any of those three. Deadwing and Catallena seem kinda bland and boring to me. In the end I put my vote toward Foxtrot.
Only teammap that looks playable is AEM Lunar Curtain. But then again my hate for shared bases knows no limits and I guess I should go back to playing BW since I wont get away from that nannystate shit.
On April 30 2014 21:51 19Meavis93 wrote: Isn't sacred path allready in "premier competition", or is shoutcraft to small to count?
Asked Plexa about this a long time ago and it's fine.
Plexa wrote: 'Premier' competition is basically WCS/PL/DH/IEM and whatnot. Clan wars probably falls under major tournament so I'm happy to consider those maps.
Thought about sending in my New Pompeii (more nat friendly edition) but in the end decided not to. But after looking at these results now... probably should have. :p
On April 30 2014 16:16 Ragoo wrote: Excluding Foxtrot these maps are all bland/turtly as fuck. Honestly easy 4-5 bases is not what I like to see in SC2. From my point of view just about the worst finalists that could be picked (for comparison maps I liked best). Imo big mistake to let only TL strategy members pick maps and not have a balanced board of judges. Hell I mean when I judged the guy from TL strategy (monk) at least was very open to new interesting maps and not just too the turtly bland shit that makes everyone macro peacefully that was carefully chosen here.
Also no offense to NemRaC (I think you're relatively new) but if you think Biome looks good think again. In every area there is basically only 2 textures being used which greatly limits how well you can texture it. Also the texture work isn't even particularly good, the doodads are almost non-existant and the way textures come together in the middle.....
I agree with Whitewing, 3 out of the 5 maps are fairly aggressive, I don't understand why you believe all the maps are turtly. Monk helped us judge these maps and specifically ruled out Arcadia, Colonial Province, and Hunting Grounds with us.
The other maps on your list either made securing a third base (or fourth base for Zerg) nearly impossible, with the exception of Purifier, which is a great map but a little TOO choky (and thus impossible for Zerg). Again, our goal was to pick maps with new and interesting concepts without sacrificing playability and releasing a completely broken map for judging. We believe that these maps provide very interesting and fascinating angles for strategy while still holding true enough to the principles of mapmaking and preventing any kind of unplayable scenarios.
On April 30 2014 20:09 Meerel wrote: get this biome map out of here, 1 attack path is the worst thing you can do as a mapmaker. unbelievable
The middle area is actually quite open and the circular center allows for a surprising amount of movement in the late game. We DID test this against SH to see if turtly SH play would be too powerful, and we found out that there is still plenty of room to abuse the mobility of the SH in the middle as well as tons of drop space.
I highly encourage everyone to take a look at the maps and test them out themselves on BNet.
Plexa wrote: 'Premier' competition is basically WCS/PL/DH/IEM and whatnot. Clan wars probably falls under major tournament so I'm happy to consider those maps.
Thought about sending in my New Pompeii (more nat friendly edition) but in the end decided not to. But after looking at these results now... probably should have. :p
Quick shoutout to New Pompeii: You can never ever ever make a map work with two ramps into the main. It's just not a possibility as it completely breaks the matchups. However, I really like the idea of a circular map with destructible rocks that opens into a larger middle area. Cactus Valley was similar in concept and almost got selected for playtesting in the TLMC. Unfortunately, we believe it's a little too difficult to make these concepts work in game without some kind of rotational imbalance or incredibly boring game.
Why only 5 maps 1v1? Btw everything looks bad ( should i say totally crap ? ) except Ktv maps , even if they have some gameplay issues they look very good
uh the 5p map is totally retarded , only 1 path per player ? Are you kidding me ?
Ok... I saw it this morning and really didn't have anything to say, and now I see it again... And I am just amazed how GREAT these submissions are! Well done strategy team and anyone who decided on these maps! They are truely the best that our community has got! All these maps look like they spent hours and hours on them. None of these maps are turtlemaps at all, the 4th bases are relatively hard to take too! Amazing!
Sacred Path reminds me of Arid Wastes, these types of maps produce fun-to-watch cars'n'dogs ZT v ZT minigames but aren't that interesting in the long run maybe? I think AEM Preservation seems like a great 2v2 map.
Hmmm I just played CJ Biome, it's waaay smaller than it looks. Basically you move out from your third with slow protoss stuff and 20 in game seconds later you're at theirs.
On April 30 2014 22:08 Semmo wrote: Ok... I saw it this morning and really didn't have anything to say, and now I see it again... And I am just amazed how GREAT these submissions are! Well done strategy team and anyone who decided on these maps! They are truely the best that our community has got! All these maps look like they spent hours and hours on them. None of these maps are turtlemaps at all, the 4th bases are relatively hard to take too! Amazing!
my sarcasm detector exploded ;_;
On April 30 2014 22:12 Liquid`Snute wrote: cars'n'dogs ZT v ZT minigames
this is the funniest and most accurate description of 2v2 meta I've seen yet
2 in 1 maps are just stupid and no one likes to play them (see Waystation and Korhal Floating Island), they are just 2 players map with the problems of a 4 player map. Biome and Deadwing are uber turtlemaps Catallena looks like a work in progress...
I don't see Blizzard choosing any of these maps for the next seasons map pool. How many maps were submited ?
On April 30 2014 22:57 algue wrote: The maps look rather uninspired imo.
2 in 1 maps are just stupid and no one likes to play them (see Waystation and Korhal Floating Island), they are just 2 players map with the problems of a 4 player map. Biome and Deadwing are uber turtlemaps Catallena looks like a work in progress...
I don't see Blizzard choosing any of these maps for the next seasons map pool. How many maps were submited ?
120 were submitted, 25 survived the first filter, 12 the second filter, makes me wonder what those 12 were.
On April 30 2014 22:57 algue wrote: The maps look rather uninspired imo.
2 in 1 maps are just stupid and no one likes to play them (see Waystation and Korhal Floating Island), they are just 2 players map with the problems of a 4 player map. Biome and Deadwing are uber turtlemaps Catallena looks like a work in progress...
I don't see Blizzard choosing any of these maps for the next seasons map pool. How many maps were submited ?
120 were submitted, 25 survived the first filter, 12 the second filter, makes me wonder what those 12 were.
120 maps !? I can't believe those five maps made it :s
On April 30 2014 22:01 SC2John wrote: Quick shoutout to New Pompeii: You can never ever ever make a map work with two ramps into the main. It's just not a possibility as it completely breaks the matchups. However, I really like the idea of a circular map with destructible rocks that opens into a larger middle area. Cactus Valley was similar in concept and almost got selected for playtesting in the TLMC. Unfortunately, we believe it's a little too difficult to make these concepts work in game without some kind of rotational imbalance or incredibly boring game.
So there's just no hope for closed off middle area maps to spice things up? Or would've it been better with a more even "air-space access" to the mains, layout? (think Korhal Carnage, Shrieking Breeze)
Edit: No need to answer now. Plexa answered most of my questions. :p
All these 1v1 maps looks amazing. Blizzard should just take 'em all and put into ladder. Deadwing and Kamala are my favourite though, why can't I upvote both
-> kamala park: looks about as good as a "2in1" map can get, really like it! (my vote) -> foxtrot labs: looks funky and new, especially the layout of natural and 3rd/4th bases... could be pretty hard for zerg to find a good engagement on this map tho -> catallena: looks like an okay map, doesn't bring anything exciting or new.. bases look reaaaaaally small.. pretty bad symmetry -> deadwing: 4 bases WAY too easy, better than alterzim tho... still bad for entertainment value -> biome: looks cool, but is just a crappy map
The last day of the submission process i was actually incredibly surprised that almost none of you guys submitted standard maps, i saw lots of very extremely awesome maps with very non standard layouts (Return of Samus!? Epik), but the thing here we like it or not, is that the big chunk of players don't like to play on those kind of maps, that's the reason why no one plays on reversed temple, but lots play on let's say, Python.
I mean, can you imagine what would happen if a map with a backdoor reached gold or bronze league? Can you wrap your head around the outrage that would cause? To further this, many non standard layouts can perfectly be pulled off and be balanced for a good amount of time, we know this, but those layouts would need to have stuff with modified values, such as hardened rocks, triggered bridges and whatnot. One example of this could be Shrine of the Fallen, it has a backdoor and the layout is solid, but with only 2000hp and 3 armor the rocks they can be taken down just too easily, making the map volatile as a whole.
Same deal with Colonial Province (Korhal Compound textures ♥). Many non standard layouts require non standard values for debris, otherwise the map becomes volatile. IeZ did exactly this with his map with the bridges (sorry can't recall the name atm )
The thing here is that we can't use other values that are not the default ones for rocks and such, making many many non standard layouts not viable.
This TLMC is not for Red Bull, we can't expect maps such as Shrieking Breeze or Jungle Valley to get picked because we need to aim for the lowest denominator too, not just top players.
So yeah, i thinks those are my thoughts on the issue, also i'm saddened because we are not going to have an awesome tournament to showcase the maps this time! :/ and for what i'm seeing (or lack) is that there doesn't seem to be a prize as well (?)
For those that want to check more Info about my maps go here!
On April 30 2014 23:55 Uvantak wrote: I mean, can you imagine what would happen if a map with a backdoor reached gold or bronze league? Can you wrap your head around the outrage that would cause? To further this, many non standard layouts can perfectly be pulled off and be balanced for a good amount of time, we know this, but those layouts would need to have stuff with modified values, such as hardened rocks, triggered bridges and whatnot. One example of this could be Shrine of the Fallen, it has a backdoor and the layout is solid, but with only 2000hp and 3 armor the rocks they can be taken down just too easily, making the map volatile as a whole.
Same deal with Colonial Province (Korhal Compound textures ♥). Many non standard layouts require non standard values for debris, otherwise the map becomes volatile. IeZ did exactly this with his map with the bridges (sorry can't recall the name atm )
"NO FUN ALLOWED !
You poor little bronze player wanna play on a map where the element of surprise is key because the element of surprise plays a big role in any RTS game ? TOO BAD, YOU AND YOUR OPPONENT ARE WAY TOO DUMB TO UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE ROCKS CAN BE DESTROYED. I'M NOT EVEN SURE THE IDEA OF BUILDING SOME STATIC DEFENSES COULD CROSS YOUR MIND.
Here, play on this map with 4 xel naga towers and one single path to get across the map. Remember that you shouldn't drop or try sneaky stuff because it creats volatile games if your opponent hasn't built a fuck ton of turrets in his base."
On April 30 2014 23:55 Uvantak wrote: I mean, can you imagine what would happen if a map with a backdoor reached gold or bronze league? Can you wrap your head around the outrage that would cause? To further this, many non standard layouts can perfectly be pulled off and be balanced for a good amount of time, we know this, but those layouts would need to have stuff with modified values, such as hardened rocks, triggered bridges and whatnot. One example of this could be Shrine of the Fallen, it has a backdoor and the layout is solid, but with only 2000hp and 3 armor the rocks they can be taken down just too easily, making the map volatile as a whole.
Same deal with Colonial Province (Korhal Compound textures ♥). Many non standard layouts require non standard values for debris, otherwise the map becomes volatile. IeZ did exactly this with his map with the bridges (sorry can't recall the name atm )
NO FUN ALLOWED !
You poor little bronze player wanna play on a map where the element of surprise is key because the element of surprise plays a big role in any RTS game ? TOO BAD, YOU AND YOUR OPPONENT ARE WAY TOO DUMB TO UNDERSTAND THAT THOSE ROCKS CAN BE DESTROYED. I'M NOT EVEN SURE THE IDEA OF BUILDING SOME STATIC DEFENSES COULD CROSS YOUR MIND.
Part of me says Foxtrot, and part of me really wants to play CJ Biome because it''s so unique.
This guy makes a good point though:
On April 30 2014 11:30 S1eth wrote: I have a hard time imagining how those 1v1 maps are going to play out (and I'm surely not the only one). I take it that there won't be a TLMC tournament this time? So most people will decide on a whim based on looks...
CJBiome. A completely flat (except for the mains) map without any chokes whatsoever?
I definitely voted CJBiome based on the review before I realized the total flatness.
Still, I think this pentagram style map has the potential to be a very dynamic experience and balancing a 5 person map with cross spawns only is BRILLIANT. Olli mentioned it's smaller than it looks which also should reduce turtling.
CJ Biome looks very cool, though I am curious about real estate for engagements. It feels like there may be issues there. Catallena has low ground 4ths, which is better than Way Station to be fair, but a feature I am not terribly fond of in general; Save for Xel Naga Caverns, most of those seem to be, "You will not take this unless you absolutely have to,"
Ok, gonna go trough a lot of analysis and my thoughts on the new maps, so prepare for a wall of text.
Foxtrot No major vulnerability to all-ins on the main and nat layouts of both spawn possibilities. You have two choice of third bases, on the bottom left and top right spawns, both reasonably close to the nats and both harassable from the high grounds above the mineral lines. The other spawn locations present a more linear layout.
The major point of interest will be the middle, dominated by the two cliffs. There are multiple small paths between those. My worry here is that, in a lot of MU's, if one or both players can stabilize at some point in the mid game then they can split the map. In TvT its easy to dominate the cliffs with siege tanks, sensor towers and air control and it wouldn't be hard for it to happen in TvZ or for Zerg to abuse SH on it vs Toss. Now in my humble opinion if you wanted to break such a defensive line you'd go about it in one of two ways, you harass enough to pull the defending units out of position or you setup a large flank. I'm not sure if the arhitecture of the map allows enough room to harass efficiently or to maneuver around enough to pull out of position or flank the enemy.
The early to mid game should play out with both players trying to setup that defensive line while trying to prevent the enemy from doing the same via harass. If however they stabilize they will turtle. Thus this map gets a no from me for potentially promoting a way too defensive gameplay.
Deadwing Straight forward base layout for the first 4 bases. There are a couple of annoying vulnerabilities if both players spawn top or both. The high ground 3rds can be sieged from the other mineral line, the 4th mineral line can also be sieged from the high ground ridge.
I get a feeling that close spawns will have to be disabled unless the bases are moved a bit. The map seems to lead itself to being split up somewhat, with both players taking the bottom or top sides. But it doesn't feel as easy to do as say Shakuras or Newkirk, it looks like there are more angles you can attack from to draw the opponent out of position and its harder to cover as much space with limited units as you could on Newkirk. TvT would be mech favored in close positions and bio favored far or cross, TvZ would be terran favored close positions and probably zerg favored cross and far. PvZ should be very P favored with some really strong FF based all-ins able to abuse the bridge going in between nat and 3rd and it should be about even in cross or long.
I'm interested to see how it will play out, given that you can potentially secure a lot of bases easily but you might have a harder time defending them due to most of the mineral lines oriented towards the attacker and being somewhat close to cliffs. My only worry is that it might be a tad too big in cross spawns. Overall this would get my vote if horizontal spawns where disabled.
CJ Biome The main, nat and 3rd layouts look secure initially. However there are a lot of features that I hate about the map. First you can easily siege both 3rds from another 3rd location. I dislike this because the risk, reward ratio to this feels very wrong to that of attacking a base directly. You commit less units and they are far safer by sending them around to the side to siege a 3rd mineral line, you also need to dedicate a slightly smaller force to dislodge it form the siege position, meaning potentially more of your army can be caught out of position and killed. Second problem is the huge amount of air vulnerability, Mutalisks in particular are already extremely strong in this state of the game and I'm not sure it would be a good idea making them even more powerful, especially given that they are already strong due to the architecture of the map, being able to ping pong between bases and such. Last problem I have with the map is that you can potentially split it by setting up a defensive line with static defense + tanks/SH in the middle.
I must admit, I'm a fan of the concept, but I don't believe its correctly executed here so I'll give this map a pass.
Catallena The mains look kind of vulnerable to both blink all-ins and siege ups right next to them, so that worries me a bit. The nats look very secure though.
For obvious reasons 3 player maps are unexplored. It looks like this tries to address having 3rds close to the enemy by providing you with two high ground 3rds, both quite defensible. I like this approach, I'm a fan of small and incremental design steps, working with known concepts. That being said, because its 3 spawn its still hard to completely expand away from the enemy, so the 3rd might still be hard to secure, but I like the direction its going and I'm interested in seeing it play out.
Overall we have so little experience with 3 player maps that I want to give this map my vote just so we can learn more about the game.
Kamala Park Looks like a 2 in 1 map with a secure main and nat and a close 3rd, good base flow, should be easy for all races to get up to a 3rd base. My big worry is that, with most of the bases being concentrated at the top or bottom of the map that the map lends itself very easily to a turtle style. Despite there being numerous attack paths into the high ground plateau where the bases are, it doesn't matter as much since the paths lead more or less to the same area, thus some well placed static defense and a army could hold those positions really well. If some of the bases or paths where re-worked so you couldn't split the map as easily then it might be better, but with how they bases are clustered I doubt it. The map gets a nay from me because I've had enough of seeing turtle mech games or SH games, never mind playing them.
On April 30 2014 16:16 Ragoo wrote: Also no offense to NemRaC (I think you're relatively new) but if you think Biome looks good think again. In every area there is basically only 2 textures being used which greatly limits how well you can texture it. Also the texture work isn't even particularly good, the doodads are almost non-existant and the way textures come together in the middle.....
Are you saying the middle of Biome looks like a giant anus hole?
Biome just struck me as real ugly looking at first. After having looked at it some more I seem to appreciate its simple looks a bit more though.
Gameplay-wise I like the concept of the map and I dont think the map has severe turtle issues given the short distance from player to player and given the huge open space around the middle and right outside the 3rd and the 4th (although that cliff area separating the entrance from the 3rd and the 4th could be made a little smaller to make for even more open space). I kind of want to play it, it looks real fun. I think it could use a bit more work (or a complete redo?) when it comes to the tilsets/textures though.
It would be nice if maps circulated around major (or certain premier) tournaments awhile before being irremovably thrust into WCS for a season since theorycrafting can't tell you everything about how a map will play out. Like how Proleague introduced King Sejong Station, Blizzard saw it working well, and then put it in the map pool.
First off : Thanks again to TL for doing this map contest again, i always look forward to these and its awesome that you guys organise all this.
However I'm a little disappointed with the chosen maps though. Felt there were a lot more unusual and new exciting ways to play in the maps that got cut :-(
I'm glad at least the "old" mapmaking community shares the same opinion. Also I'm glad I didn't put myself through the stress of pushing 2 maps in short time for this. Waiting for another Red Bull Contest or w/e that was.
On May 01 2014 06:31 FlopTurnReaver wrote: I'm glad at least the "old" mapmaking community shares the same opinion. Also I'm glad I didn't put myself through the stress of pushing 2 maps in short time for this. Waiting for another Red Bull Contest or w/e that was.
Not sure if I qualify for that group or not but yeah, pretty much in agreement. I don't understand only 5 finalists either.
I'm glad we have fresh faces for the finalists. Honestly I don't think there were any standout maps, there were a lot of decent submissions of various types. The selections strike me as pragmatic, as opposed to the concept-design focus of the old guard. The only exception to this is Foxtrot, but its depth is half due to serendipity if I had to guess. Not that this is at all a bad thing, most good things are. So, I can't really say the selections left any gems behind, it depends on your style.
[edit] Of course congrats to the finalists! Forgot to say that yet.
On May 01 2014 04:38 Corazon wrote: For those complaining about lack of variety in the maps:
1. Maps with 2 ramps into the main don't really work unless there is a good use of rocks. 2. Maps without a standard ramp don't work at all (PvP)
We received a variety of new and interesting ideas, but most of them were way too out there in order to make it to the playtesting process.
What are you talking about with PvP. It's always gping to be balanced. It's pretty shitty that you keep on making up excuses for PvP, meanwhile I have never heard anyone consider that you need a choke coverable by 3.5 large buildings without planting a creeptumor first to not have shitty ZvZ mass zergling gameplay.
On May 01 2014 04:38 Corazon wrote: For those complaining about lack of variety in the maps:
1. Maps with 2 ramps into the main don't really work unless there is a good use of rocks. 2. Maps without a standard ramp don't work at all (PvP)
We received a variety of new and interesting ideas, but most of them were way too out there in order to make it to the playtesting process.
What are you talking about with PvP. It's always gping to be balanced. It's pretty shitty that you keep on making up excuses for PvP, meanwhile I have never heard anyone consider that you need a choke coverable by 3.5 large buildings without planting a creeptumor first to not have shitty ZvZ mass zergling gameplay.
On May 01 2014 04:38 Corazon wrote: For those complaining about lack of variety in the maps:
1. Maps with 2 ramps into the main don't really work unless there is a good use of rocks. 2. Maps without a standard ramp don't work at all (PvP)
We received a variety of new and interesting ideas, but most of them were way too out there in order to make it to the playtesting process.
What are you talking about with PvP. It's always gping to be balanced. It's pretty shitty that you keep on making up excuses for PvP, meanwhile I have never heard anyone consider that you need a choke coverable by 3.5 large buildings without planting a creeptumor first to not have shitty ZvZ mass zergling gameplay.
Without the ability to hold a main ramp with forcefield, it's practically impossible to hold a lot of PvP all-ins. There has been extensive testing on this in previous map contests, and we've come to the conclusion pretty unanimously that it's just not possible to play PvP with a large ramp.
Also, we do also spend a lot of time thinking about the distances between main and natural, the size of the main ramp, the size of the natural ramp, the distance of the main ramp to the hatchery, and the distance of natural ramp from the hatchery into account when playing these maps. It just so happens that 90% of the time, these problems happen to coincide with Protoss problems as well. Daedalus Point was a failed map not only for Zerg versus Protoss and Terran, but also for ZvZ, where it was near impossible to get past the ling/bling phase safely because you couldn't wall (and also, your spine crawler didn't quite cover your mineral line AND ramp, which was a pain in the ass).
Trust me, we've talked about Zerg as well, TL Strategy isn't actually as biased as some people might think.
On May 01 2014 04:38 Corazon wrote: For those complaining about lack of variety in the maps:
1. Maps with 2 ramps into the main don't really work unless there is a good use of rocks. 2. Maps without a standard ramp don't work at all (PvP)
We received a variety of new and interesting ideas, but most of them were way too out there in order to make it to the playtesting process.
What are you talking about with PvP. It's always gping to be balanced. It's pretty shitty that you keep on making up excuses for PvP, meanwhile I have never heard anyone consider that you need a choke coverable by 3.5 large buildings without planting a creeptumor first to not have shitty ZvZ mass zergling gameplay.
Without the ability to hold a main ramp with forcefield, it's practically impossible to hold a lot of PvP all-ins. There has been extensive testing on this in previous map contests, and we've come to the conclusion pretty unanimously that it's just not possible to play PvP with a large ramp.
Also, we do also spend a lot of time thinking about the distances between main and natural, the size of the main ramp, the size of the natural ramp, the distance of the main ramp to the hatchery, and the distance of natural ramp from the hatchery into account when playing these maps. It just so happens that 90% of the time, these problems happen to coincide with Protoss problems as well. Daedalus Point was a failed map not only for Zerg versus Protoss and Terran, but also for ZvZ, where it was near impossible to get past the ling/bling phase safely because you couldn't wall (and also, your spine crawler didn't quite cover your mineral line AND ramp, which was a pain in the ass).
Trust me, we've talked about Zerg as well, TL Strategy isn't actually as biased as some people might think.
A number of maps were shut down because they were impossible for zerg to play on. We're trying to produce maps that are reasonably balanced while allowing for interesting play and newer designs. Deadwing is here because it's a good replacement for a big macro map: it's certainly better than alterzim. The other four maps are all different than what we've had on ladder, but seem reasonably balanced. If it makes you feel any better, Catallena is probably bad for protoss, but we thought it was interesting enough that it was worth making it to this round.
On May 01 2014 04:38 Corazon wrote: For those complaining about lack of variety in the maps:
1. Maps with 2 ramps into the main don't really work unless there is a good use of rocks. 2. Maps without a standard ramp don't work at all (PvP)
We received a variety of new and interesting ideas, but most of them were way too out there in order to make it to the playtesting process.
What are you talking about with PvP. It's always gping to be balanced. It's pretty shitty that you keep on making up excuses for PvP, meanwhile I have never heard anyone consider that you need a choke coverable by 3.5 large buildings without planting a creeptumor first to not have shitty ZvZ mass zergling gameplay.
Without the ability to hold a main ramp with forcefield, it's practically impossible to hold a lot of PvP all-ins. There has been extensive testing on this in previous map contests, and we've come to the conclusion pretty unanimously that it's just not possible to play PvP with a large ramp.
Also, we do also spend a lot of time thinking about the distances between main and natural, the size of the main ramp, the size of the natural ramp, the distance of the main ramp to the hatchery, and the distance of natural ramp from the hatchery into account when playing these maps. It just so happens that 90% of the time, these problems happen to coincide with Protoss problems as well. Daedalus Point was a failed map not only for Zerg versus Protoss and Terran, but also for ZvZ, where it was near impossible to get past the ling/bling phase safely because you couldn't wall (and also, your spine crawler didn't quite cover your mineral line AND ramp, which was a pain in the ass).
Trust me, we've talked about Zerg as well, TL Strategy isn't actually as biased as some people might think.
A number of maps were shut down because they were impossible for zerg to play on. We're trying to produce maps that are reasonably balanced while allowing for interesting play and newer designs. Deadwing is here because it's a good replacement for a big macro map: it's certainly better than alterzim. The other four maps are all different than what we've had on ladder, but seem reasonably balanced. If it makes you feel any better, Catallena is probably bad for protoss, but we thought it was interesting enough that it was worth making it to this round.
Except why are 20 tightly packed bases even necessary for a "big macro map"? Most mapmakers seem to agree (and I can give sources if necessary) that Whirlwind is a good example of what a large macro map should be - it's big but not so enormous that the 2nd half of the map is never relevant, and it has a high base count but they're spread far enough that some degree of map awareness is necessary to defend 4+ bases. Go much further than that and now you've just crossed the line from macro to turtle.
On May 01 2014 04:38 Corazon wrote: For those complaining about lack of variety in the maps:
1. Maps with 2 ramps into the main don't really work unless there is a good use of rocks. 2. Maps without a standard ramp don't work at all (PvP)
We received a variety of new and interesting ideas, but most of them were way too out there in order to make it to the playtesting process.
What are you talking about with PvP. It's always gping to be balanced. It's pretty shitty that you keep on making up excuses for PvP, meanwhile I have never heard anyone consider that you need a choke coverable by 3.5 large buildings without planting a creeptumor first to not have shitty ZvZ mass zergling gameplay.
Without the ability to hold a main ramp with forcefield, it's practically impossible to hold a lot of PvP all-ins. There has been extensive testing on this in previous map contests, and we've come to the conclusion pretty unanimously that it's just not possible to play PvP with a large ramp.
Also, we do also spend a lot of time thinking about the distances between main and natural, the size of the main ramp, the size of the natural ramp, the distance of the main ramp to the hatchery, and the distance of natural ramp from the hatchery into account when playing these maps. It just so happens that 90% of the time, these problems happen to coincide with Protoss problems as well. Daedalus Point was a failed map not only for Zerg versus Protoss and Terran, but also for ZvZ, where it was near impossible to get past the ling/bling phase safely because you couldn't wall (and also, your spine crawler didn't quite cover your mineral line AND ramp, which was a pain in the ass).
Trust me, we've talked about Zerg as well, TL Strategy isn't actually as biased as some people might think.
A number of maps were shut down because they were impossible for zerg to play on. We're trying to produce maps that are reasonably balanced while allowing for interesting play and newer designs. Deadwing is here because it's a good replacement for a big macro map: it's certainly better than alterzim. The other four maps are all different than what we've had on ladder, but seem reasonably balanced. If it makes you feel any better, Catallena is probably bad for protoss, but we thought it was interesting enough that it was worth making it to this round.
First of all, Alterzim is definitely better than Deadwing. Second of all, Deadwing has really no difference in defending 3 bases vs 4, whereas all good macro maps (not boring ones) do. There are also a lot of really beginner-level straight lines and tiny, tiny chokes that don't fit very well in the map.
Also, I'd like to know how my maps did. Can you or someone else PM me about it? (I'm assuming you were part of the judging process based on your post)
On May 01 2014 04:38 Corazon wrote: For those complaining about lack of variety in the maps:
1. Maps with 2 ramps into the main don't really work unless there is a good use of rocks. 2. Maps without a standard ramp don't work at all (PvP)
We received a variety of new and interesting ideas, but most of them were way too out there in order to make it to the playtesting process.
What are you talking about with PvP. It's always gping to be balanced. It's pretty shitty that you keep on making up excuses for PvP, meanwhile I have never heard anyone consider that you need a choke coverable by 3.5 large buildings without planting a creeptumor first to not have shitty ZvZ mass zergling gameplay.
Without the ability to hold a main ramp with forcefield, it's practically impossible to hold a lot of PvP all-ins. There has been extensive testing on this in previous map contests, and we've come to the conclusion pretty unanimously that it's just not possible to play PvP with a large ramp.
Also, we do also spend a lot of time thinking about the distances between main and natural, the size of the main ramp, the size of the natural ramp, the distance of the main ramp to the hatchery, and the distance of natural ramp from the hatchery into account when playing these maps. It just so happens that 90% of the time, these problems happen to coincide with Protoss problems as well. Daedalus Point was a failed map not only for Zerg versus Protoss and Terran, but also for ZvZ, where it was near impossible to get past the ling/bling phase safely because you couldn't wall (and also, your spine crawler didn't quite cover your mineral line AND ramp, which was a pain in the ass).
Trust me, we've talked about Zerg as well, TL Strategy isn't actually as biased as some people might think.
A number of maps were shut down because they were impossible for zerg to play on. We're trying to produce maps that are reasonably balanced while allowing for interesting play and newer designs. Deadwing is here because it's a good replacement for a big macro map: it's certainly better than alterzim. The other four maps are all different than what we've had on ladder, but seem reasonably balanced. If it makes you feel any better, Catallena is probably bad for protoss, but we thought it was interesting enough that it was worth making it to this round.
First of all, Alterzim is definitely better than Deadwing. Second of all, Deadwing has really no difference in defending 3 bases vs 4, whereas all good macro maps (not boring ones) do. There are also a lot of really beginner-level straight lines and tiny, tiny chokes that don't fit very well in the map.
Also, I'd like to know how my maps did. Can you or someone else PM me about it? (I'm assuming you were part of the judging process based on your post)
I am preparing a post giving some general comments about why maps were not selected. If after that you're not satisfied then feel free to contact me.
On May 01 2014 04:38 Corazon wrote: For those complaining about lack of variety in the maps:
1. Maps with 2 ramps into the main don't really work unless there is a good use of rocks. 2. Maps without a standard ramp don't work at all (PvP)
We received a variety of new and interesting ideas, but most of them were way too out there in order to make it to the playtesting process.
What are you talking about with PvP. It's always gping to be balanced. It's pretty shitty that you keep on making up excuses for PvP, meanwhile I have never heard anyone consider that you need a choke coverable by 3.5 large buildings without planting a creeptumor first to not have shitty ZvZ mass zergling gameplay.
Without the ability to hold a main ramp with forcefield, it's practically impossible to hold a lot of PvP all-ins. There has been extensive testing on this in previous map contests, and we've come to the conclusion pretty unanimously that it's just not possible to play PvP with a large ramp.
Also, we do also spend a lot of time thinking about the distances between main and natural, the size of the main ramp, the size of the natural ramp, the distance of the main ramp to the hatchery, and the distance of natural ramp from the hatchery into account when playing these maps. It just so happens that 90% of the time, these problems happen to coincide with Protoss problems as well. Daedalus Point was a failed map not only for Zerg versus Protoss and Terran, but also for ZvZ, where it was near impossible to get past the ling/bling phase safely because you couldn't wall (and also, your spine crawler didn't quite cover your mineral line AND ramp, which was a pain in the ass).
Trust me, we've talked about Zerg as well, TL Strategy isn't actually as biased as some people might think.
A number of maps were shut down because they were impossible for zerg to play on. We're trying to produce maps that are reasonably balanced while allowing for interesting play and newer designs. Deadwing is here because it's a good replacement for a big macro map: it's certainly better than alterzim. The other four maps are all different than what we've had on ladder, but seem reasonably balanced. If it makes you feel any better, Catallena is probably bad for protoss, but we thought it was interesting enough that it was worth making it to this round.
First of all, Alterzim is definitely better than Deadwing. Second of all, Deadwing has really no difference in defending 3 bases vs 4, whereas all good macro maps (not boring ones) do. There are also a lot of really beginner-level straight lines and tiny, tiny chokes that don't fit very well in the map.
Also, I'd like to know how my maps did. Can you or someone else PM me about it? (I'm assuming you were part of the judging process based on your post)
I am preparing a post giving some general comments about why maps were not selected. If after that you're not satisfied then feel free to contact me.
i voted biome because it looks cool and is cool and i like things that are visually unique and engaging :D if they don't want people voting on whims or based on factors other than gameplay they shouldn't have public voting
On May 01 2014 10:29 Waise wrote: i voted biome because it looks cool and is cool and i like things that are visually unique and engaging :D if they don't want people voting on whims or based on factors other than gameplay they shouldn't have public voting
They usually have a separate staff vote, and then they combine the two. by staff I mean the TL map contest judges
On May 01 2014 10:29 Waise wrote: i voted biome because it looks cool and is cool and i like things that are visually unique and engaging :D if they don't want people voting on whims or based on factors other than gameplay they shouldn't have public voting
If it had a beach part, I'm sure it'd be first place. People love beaches more than they like good maps.
On May 01 2014 10:29 Waise wrote: i voted biome because it looks cool and is cool and i like things that are visually unique and engaging :D if they don't want people voting on whims or based on factors other than gameplay they shouldn't have public voting
They usually have a separate staff vote, and then they combine the two. by staff I mean the TL map contest judges
No, it was only like that in TLMC 1. Public decides it all now.
On May 01 2014 10:29 Waise wrote: i voted biome because it looks cool and is cool and i like things that are visually unique and engaging :D if they don't want people voting on whims or based on factors other than gameplay they shouldn't have public voting
They usually have a separate staff vote, and then they combine the two. by staff I mean the TL map contest judges
No, it was only like that in TLMC 1. Public decides it all now.
On May 01 2014 10:29 Waise wrote: i voted biome because it looks cool and is cool and i like things that are visually unique and engaging :D if they don't want people voting on whims or based on factors other than gameplay they shouldn't have public voting
And this is exactly why the finalists being determined entirely by public vote is a bad idea.
On May 01 2014 10:29 Waise wrote: i voted biome because it looks cool and is cool and i like things that are visually unique and engaging :D if they don't want people voting on whims or based on factors other than gameplay they shouldn't have public voting
And this is exactly why the finalists being determined entirely by public vote is a bad idea.
Would you relax? I know your map didn't get picked, but these are probably all going to yield at least some fun games.
Again, the maps are uploaded on BNet. You CAN go test them out yourself, you don't have to rely purely on the thumbnail. I encourage everyone to go play a few games on the map and see how they work for themselves.
Hmm are 2 in 1 maps good? The idea seems to be getting popular. I guess it nerfs the loser's map pick in tournaments that use that format. It also affects Proleague because you plan to go out on a map, but don't know which of the 2 in 1 it will be.
On May 01 2014 10:29 Waise wrote: i voted biome because it looks cool and is cool and i like things that are visually unique and engaging :D if they don't want people voting on whims or based on factors other than gameplay they shouldn't have public voting
And this is exactly why the finalists being determined entirely by public vote is a bad idea.
Would you relax? I know your map didn't get picked, but these are probably all going to yield at least some fun games.
Again, the maps are uploaded on BNet. You CAN go test them out yourself, you don't have to rely purely on the thumbnail. I encourage everyone to go play a few games on the map and see how they work for themselves.
The problem with this is a lot of people don't play that much, or are more concerned with how the maps will affect the pro scene than their ladder games.
I like both Foxtrot and Kamala, because they have some interesting gameplay, and don't look like ass. (octopuses are pretty rad, but dirt tileset is so WOL beta)
Do I have to pick a map? Can't I just vote for Uvantak?
On May 01 2014 10:29 Waise wrote: i voted biome because it looks cool and is cool and i like things that are visually unique and engaging :D if they don't want people voting on whims or based on factors other than gameplay they shouldn't have public voting
And this is exactly why the finalists being determined entirely by public vote is a bad idea.
Would you relax? I know your map didn't get picked, but these are probably all going to yield at least some fun games.
Again, the maps are uploaded on BNet. You CAN go test them out yourself, you don't have to rely purely on the thumbnail. I encourage everyone to go play a few games on the map and see how they work for themselves.
I don't care at all that my map didn't place, I knew it was probably a little too experimental anyway. I'm just disappointed that the general public seems to be favoring a map which most mapmakers have agreed should produce boring and turtley games just because of their initial 5 second impression of the unique aesthetic theme (which upon further inspection really isn't that well done).
On May 01 2014 12:56 Die4Ever wrote: Hmm are 2 in 1 maps good? The idea seems to be getting popular. I guess it nerfs the loser's map pick in tournaments that use that format. It also affects Proleague because you plan to go out on a map, but don't know which of the 2 in 1 it will be.
On May 01 2014 04:38 Corazon wrote: For those complaining about lack of variety in the maps:
1. Maps with 2 ramps into the main don't really work unless there is a good use of rocks. 2. Maps without a standard ramp don't work at all (PvP)
We received a variety of new and interesting ideas, but most of them were way too out there in order to make it to the playtesting process.
What are you talking about with PvP. It's always gping to be balanced. It's pretty shitty that you keep on making up excuses for PvP, meanwhile I have never heard anyone consider that you need a choke coverable by 3.5 large buildings without planting a creeptumor first to not have shitty ZvZ mass zergling gameplay.
Without the ability to hold a main ramp with forcefield, it's practically impossible to hold a lot of PvP all-ins. There has been extensive testing on this in previous map contests, and we've come to the conclusion pretty unanimously that it's just not possible to play PvP with a large ramp.
Also, we do also spend a lot of time thinking about the distances between main and natural, the size of the main ramp, the size of the natural ramp, the distance of the main ramp to the hatchery, and the distance of natural ramp from the hatchery into account when playing these maps. It just so happens that 90% of the time, these problems happen to coincide with Protoss problems as well. Daedalus Point was a failed map not only for Zerg versus Protoss and Terran, but also for ZvZ, where it was near impossible to get past the ling/bling phase safely because you couldn't wall (and also, your spine crawler didn't quite cover your mineral line AND ramp, which was a pain in the ass).
Trust me, we've talked about Zerg as well, TL Strategy isn't actually as biased as some people might think.
A number of maps were shut down because they were impossible for zerg to play on. We're trying to produce maps that are reasonably balanced while allowing for interesting play and newer designs. Deadwing is here because it's a good replacement for a big macro map: it's certainly better than alterzim. The other four maps are all different than what we've had on ladder, but seem reasonably balanced. If it makes you feel any better, Catallena is probably bad for protoss, but we thought it was interesting enough that it was worth making it to this round.
First of all, Alterzim is definitely better than Deadwing. Second of all, Deadwing has really no difference in defending 3 bases vs 4, whereas all good macro maps (not boring ones) do. There are also a lot of really beginner-level straight lines and tiny, tiny chokes that don't fit very well in the map.
Also, I'd like to know how my maps did. Can you or someone else PM me about it? (I'm assuming you were part of the judging process based on your post)
I am preparing a post giving some general comments about why maps were not selected. If after that you're not satisfied then feel free to contact me.
This is the best thing you can do for those who didn't make it Plexa. Please do. We all want to improve for the next time, though I have a feeling that Triskelion had too much airspace and Sacrilege probably favored Zerg a bit due to the base count. Even so, hearing professional opinion would be invaluable to everyone.
Wow, I started not liking the maps just by looking at the comments, but they're actually good!
Deadwing looks absolutely horrid to me, and I hope it gets dead last.
But everything else:
Kamala Park looks very visually appealing, and just look like a good map layout overall. It's the big map in the bunch, but you need one of those.
Foxtrot, wow, smaller than it looks, only 12 bases to take. Kind of like match point from BW, and just more interesting dynamics. This definitely seems to be the map that is trying to do something new.
Catallena - visually stunning, and I'm liking these circular paths and whatnot. Looks great.
CJ Biome - I think it looks pretty ugly, it's not very well detailed, the corners don't like nice... eh. But I actually think the map itself has a pretty good layout, pretty hard to make something more balanced than that for a five player map, probably why we don't see it often. Kind of defeats the purpose of making a five player map and then only playing cross positions though. A three player map will give you the same number of spawning ability. So out with the 5 player maps please.
To me the design where you can take 4 bases and defend them all by just having army in one place and no need to move it at all is bad, leads to more boring play and less skill shown. Deadwing and Biome suffers from it.
On May 01 2014 17:42 Tuczniak wrote: To me the design where you can take 4 bases and defend them all by just having army in one place and no need to move it at all is bad, leads to more boring play and less skill shown. Deadwing and Biome suffers from it.
This so much.
Why do so many ppl think biome is a good map? It has 1 single Entrance for 4 bases , seriously this is going to play out super boring >_>
On May 01 2014 17:42 Tuczniak wrote: To me the design where you can take 4 bases and defend them all by just having army in one place and no need to move it at all is bad, leads to more boring play and less skill shown. Deadwing and Biome suffers from it.
This so much.
Why do so many ppl think biome is a good map? It has 1 single Entrance for 4 bases , seriously this is going to play out super boring >_>
You haven't looked very well if it looks like 1 entrance for 4 bases imo.
Plus the third and fourth are very easy to siege, and your main isn't that safe.
On May 01 2014 17:42 Tuczniak wrote: To me the design where you can take 4 bases and defend them all by just having army in one place and no need to move it at all is bad, leads to more boring play and less skill shown. Deadwing and Biome suffers from it.
This so much.
Why do so many ppl think biome is a good map? It has 1 single Entrance for 4 bases , seriously this is going to play out super boring >_>
You haven't looked very well if it looks like 1 entrance for 4 bases imo.
Plus the third and fourth are very easy to siege, and your main isn't that safe.
Agreed. To be fair, King Sejong Station is an easy 5 bases with very little army movement but tons of droppable space. Why aren't we burning that map at the stake?
Also, I don't understand why people keep thinking Kamala Park is a large map. Functionally, the map is quite small and plays out a lot like Yeonsu in terms of size.
On May 01 2014 17:42 Tuczniak wrote: To me the design where you can take 4 bases and defend them all by just having army in one place and no need to move it at all is bad, leads to more boring play and less skill shown. Deadwing and Biome suffers from it.
This so much.
Why do so many ppl think biome is a good map? It has 1 single Entrance for 4 bases , seriously this is going to play out super boring >_>
You haven't looked very well if it looks like 1 entrance for 4 bases imo.
Plus the third and fourth are very easy to siege, and your main isn't that safe.
Agreed. To be fair, King Sejong Station is an easy 5 bases with very little army movement but tons of droppable space. Why aren't we burning that map at the stake?
Are we looking at the same maps here? You have to spread out across the entire map on Sejong Station to completely defend 5 bases. On biome you have to defend a main entrance, yes, and then you need to make sure your opponent can't lay siege from either potential fifth, but that's it.
The team play finalists pretty much all look great. I voted for Lava Storm because the idea of a longitudinally split map is something that I find inherently very interesting, and it seems to be excellently done there.
The 1v1 finalists I find mostly horrible. On two maps (Deadwing and Biome) you can park your army in one spot and defend all four bases comparably easily and on both maps there is little reward for having map control as there are no gold expansions and few strategic forward points that are really worth controlling (chokes, towers, high ground, whatever). On top of that, with forced cross spawns Biome is really not that much different from a 3 player map and has all the same problems. It might be fun (a lot of fun in fact) to play FFAs on this map, but for 1v1 it seems to accomplish absolutely nothing to have five spawning positions. Catallena looks like the typical 3 player map where one player has a choice of thirds and the other one doesn't. Apparently some people like this sort of map design but personally I hate it. It's not even something you could use in Proleague since mirror matchups are the most imbalanced.
And then we have two good maps from Kantuva. I think Foxtrot Lab should have been cross only, and that it might be the greatest 2-in-1 map so far. Still, I'm a little annoyed now that the FAQ of the TLMC4 thread specifically said "Maps need to be ladder appropriate, that means no features that require specialist knowledge (rising lava, geysers used to block ramps, etc.)" while apparently golds blocking paths isn't gimmicky at all. Kamala Park looks okay but very chokey.
Basically, for the 1v1 maps I feel that you have to vote for Foxtrot Labs, except if you don't like minerals blocking paths, in which case you'd have to vote for Kamala Park instead. I really can't imagine any of the other maps lasting more than a season on ladder before everyone gets sick of it.
Still, I don't expect any of those maps to "push the meta" or anything of that sort...
On May 01 2014 17:42 Tuczniak wrote: To me the design where you can take 4 bases and defend them all by just having army in one place and no need to move it at all is bad, leads to more boring play and less skill shown. Deadwing and Biome suffers from it.
This so much.
Why do so many ppl think biome is a good map? It has 1 single Entrance for 4 bases , seriously this is going to play out super boring >_>
You haven't looked very well if it looks like 1 entrance for 4 bases imo.
Plus the third and fourth are very easy to siege, and your main isn't that safe.
Agreed. To be fair, King Sejong Station is an easy 5 bases with very little army movement but tons of droppable space. Why aren't we burning that map at the stake?
Are we looking at the same maps here? You have to spread out across the entire map on Sejong Station to completely defend 5 bases. On biome you have to defend a main entrance, yes, and then you need to make sure your opponent can't lay siege from either potential fifth, but that's it.
Versus
There's a lot less horizontal movement on biome, but that is compensated by a lot of vertical movement, especially since the 5th and main are really far away from each other. Conceptually, the maps are identical, although they implement those concepts a little bit differently.
On May 01 2014 22:14 The_Templar wrote: Those vulnerabilities marked with red lines are much further apart from each other and the main army movement on Sejong station.
Did you miss the paragraph underneath? I said that while Biome has very little lateral movement, it makes up for it by forcing tons of vertical movement. The ability to drop between the (main and 3rd) and the (natural, 4th, and 5th) as well as the general distances between the 4th and main and the 5th and main allow intelligent drops and air play to completely pick apart that space.
The concepts on Sejong are fairly similar: Pressure up the ridge on the side and drops on the other side are difficult to deal with because of the distance between the main and 4th. The ability to jump between the (main, natural, and 5th) as well as the (3rd and 4th) with drops and air play allow for strong drops and air play to completely dominate the matchup.
On May 01 2014 12:56 Die4Ever wrote: Hmm are 2 in 1 maps good? The idea seems to be getting popular. I guess it nerfs the loser's map pick in tournaments that use that format. It also affects Proleague because you plan to go out on a map, but don't know which of the 2 in 1 it will be.
Proleague is not obliged to pick up any map, regardless of whether it's used in WCS. Plus they actually invented 2 in 1 maps with Korhal Floating Island (atleast in competitive play) which everyone seems to have forgotten as Blizzard is getting plenty of false praise for inventing that concept. It sucks really hard for Progamers as its hard to pick/ban the map as one possible spawning location may be favored for your race while the other may be really bad for it. For viewers, it's obviously more exciting as 7 maps suddenly turn into 8ish maps, thus the map pool feels less repetitive. Personally, I feel like you have to make way to many compromises in map design so either both possibilities will be mediocre or one will be shit while the other plays out nicely.
If Biome wins could we get someone to retexture it? There are a lot of good maps with good layouts and bad aesthetics and a lot of aesthetically good maps with bad layouts. I mean this is why you have both an Architect and an Engineer work on a building...
On May 01 2014 04:38 Corazon wrote: For those complaining about lack of variety in the maps:
1. Maps with 2 ramps into the main don't really work unless there is a good use of rocks. 2. Maps without a standard ramp don't work at all (PvP)
We received a variety of new and interesting ideas, but most of them were way too out there in order to make it to the playtesting process.
What are you talking about with PvP. It's always gping to be balanced. It's pretty shitty that you keep on making up excuses for PvP, meanwhile I have never heard anyone consider that you need a choke coverable by 3.5 large buildings without planting a creeptumor first to not have shitty ZvZ mass zergling gameplay.
Without the ability to hold a main ramp with forcefield, it's practically impossible to hold a lot of PvP all-ins. There has been extensive testing on this in previous map contests, and we've come to the conclusion pretty unanimously that it's just not possible to play PvP with a large ramp.
Also, we do also spend a lot of time thinking about the distances between main and natural, the size of the main ramp, the size of the natural ramp, the distance of the main ramp to the hatchery, and the distance of natural ramp from the hatchery into account when playing these maps. It just so happens that 90% of the time, these problems happen to coincide with Protoss problems as well. Daedalus Point was a failed map not only for Zerg versus Protoss and Terran, but also for ZvZ, where it was near impossible to get past the ling/bling phase safely because you couldn't wall (and also, your spine crawler didn't quite cover your mineral line AND ramp, which was a pain in the ass).
Trust me, we've talked about Zerg as well, TL Strategy isn't actually as biased as some people might think.
A number of maps were shut down because they were impossible for zerg to play on. We're trying to produce maps that are reasonably balanced while allowing for interesting play and newer designs. Deadwing is here because it's a good replacement for a big macro map: it's certainly better than alterzim. The other four maps are all different than what we've had on ladder, but seem reasonably balanced. If it makes you feel any better, Catallena is probably bad for protoss, but we thought it was interesting enough that it was worth making it to this round.
First of all, Alterzim is definitely better than Deadwing. Second of all, Deadwing has really no difference in defending 3 bases vs 4, whereas all good macro maps (not boring ones) do. There are also a lot of really beginner-level straight lines and tiny, tiny chokes that don't fit very well in the map.
Also, I'd like to know how my maps did. Can you or someone else PM me about it? (I'm assuming you were part of the judging process based on your post)
I am preparing a post giving some general comments about why maps were not selected. If after that you're not satisfied then feel free to contact me.
On May 01 2014 17:42 Tuczniak wrote: To me the design where you can take 4 bases and defend them all by just having army in one place and no need to move it at all is bad, leads to more boring play and less skill shown. Deadwing and Biome suffers from it.
This so much.
Why do so many ppl think biome is a good map? It has 1 single Entrance for 4 bases , seriously this is going to play out super boring >_>
You haven't looked very well if it looks like 1 entrance for 4 bases imo.
Plus the third and fourth are very easy to siege, and your main isn't that safe.
Agreed. To be fair, King Sejong Station is an easy 5 bases with very little army movement but tons of droppable space. Why aren't we burning that map at the stake?
Also, I don't understand why people keep thinking Kamala Park is a large map. Functionally, the map is quite small and plays out a lot like Yeonsu in terms of size.
the fact you're calling KSS an easy 5b map makes me cry and wonder about the "expert" panel... you just need to kill the nat rocks and you've got a ton of space to cover even with 4bases...
The natural on foxtrot looks incredibly wide open which makes it very vunerable to allins. Voted for catallena, because I feel the layout of the map is the best out of the these maps. Kamala park also looks very good, but in the end the octopus made the difference.
Ugh. 2v2 maps are way more sexy than 1v1 maps this time around. I honestly want ALL the fucking 2v2 maps in the ladder pool - would make 2v2 AMAZING!
I don't really see too many appealing 1v1 maps at first glance...it's going to be lean pickings here ^^. Ugh. So many good 2v2 maps! What to choose...what to choose...
Foxtrot by far best looking of all the 1v1 maps. Had to go with Solar Flare - who doesn't want a sexy 2v2v2v2 map in the ladder pool?
Agreed, the team maps are way sexier than the current map pool, and thus more desirable. They also tend to stray away more from what Blizzard sees as "confusing maps", but honestly, that's a joke. After three years of playing the same game, how confused can you get?
I prefer Foxtrot or Kamala because they look different, yet balanced. Biome looks indeed different but is pretty ugly and probably boring as hell to play
What??? WTF is up with the swastikas on Deadwing??? I remember last contest there was even a map called "Blitzkrieg"! Now, that is just wrong!!! People should be more sensitive about this.
Why don't TLMC admins feedback the respective map makers and ask for changes before posting maps like these???
On May 02 2014 05:15 MrMischelito wrote: What??? WTF is up with the swastikas on Deadwing??? I remember last contest there was even a map called "Blitzkrieg"! Now, that is just wrong!!! People should be more sensitive about this.
Why don't TLMC admins feedback the respective map makers and ask for changes before posting maps like these???
Swastikas can have other meanings. they are a symbol for auspiciousness in hinduism and buddhism. Hindus draw them on entrances during parties and stuff. And their located on this map right near entrances, so i'm pretty sure thats what the author of this map meant when he/she put them there.
Edit: they also can mean good luck. and in starcraft, it's common to start by saying "good luck,have fun"
On May 02 2014 05:15 MrMischelito wrote: What??? WTF is up with the swastikas on Deadwing??? I remember last contest there was even a map called "Blitzkrieg"! Now, that is just wrong!!! People should be more sensitive about this.
Why don't TLMC admins feedback the respective map makers and ask for changes before posting maps like these???
Two responses a) They're not swastikas b) The author of the map is Polish and would not intentionally include swastikas
It's a spiral pattern created by angling protoss decals towards the center, rather than making them into a circle. Nevertheless, there is an upgraded aesthetic version which has these removed.
On May 02 2014 05:15 MrMischelito wrote: What??? WTF is up with the swastikas on Deadwing??? I remember last contest there was even a map called "Blitzkrieg"! Now, that is just wrong!!! People should be more sensitive about this.
Why don't TLMC admins feedback the respective map makers and ask for changes before posting maps like these???
Swastikas can have other meanings. they are a symbol for auspiciousness in hinduism and buddhism. Hindus draw them on entrances during parties and stuff. And their located on this map right near entrances, so i'm pretty sure thats what the author of this map meant when he/she put them there.
Edit: they also can mean good luck. and in starcraft, it's common to start by saying "good luck,have fun"
...yes, they can mean other things, but that isn't how most people are going to interpret them. People are going to see swastikas and be like OH HOLY SHIT A NEO-NAZI. That is a problem.
On May 02 2014 05:15 MrMischelito wrote: What??? WTF is up with the swastikas on Deadwing??? I remember last contest there was even a map called "Blitzkrieg"! Now, that is just wrong!!! People should be more sensitive about this.
Why don't TLMC admins feedback the respective map makers and ask for changes before posting maps like these???
Swastikas can have other meanings. they are a symbol for auspiciousness in hinduism and buddhism. Hindus draw them on entrances during parties and stuff. And their located on this map right near entrances, so i'm pretty sure thats what the author of this map meant when he/she put them there.
Edit: they also can mean good luck. and in starcraft, it's common to start by saying "good luck,have fun"
Remember when Blizzard removed the Sniper Ridge remake from the servers?
On May 02 2014 05:15 MrMischelito wrote: What??? WTF is up with the swastikas on Deadwing??? I remember last contest there was even a map called "Blitzkrieg"! Now, that is just wrong!!! People should be more sensitive about this.
Why don't TLMC admins feedback the respective map makers and ask for changes before posting maps like these???
Swastikas can have other meanings. they are a symbol for auspiciousness in hinduism and buddhism. Hindus draw them on entrances during parties and stuff. And their located on this map right near entrances, so i'm pretty sure thats what the author of this map meant when he/she put them there.
Edit: they also can mean good luck. and in starcraft, it's common to start by saying "good luck,have fun"
...yes, they can mean other things, but that isn't how most people are going to interpret them. People are going to see swastikas and be like OH HOLY SHIT A NEO-NAZI. That is a problem.
On May 02 2014 05:15 MrMischelito wrote: What??? WTF is up with the swastikas on Deadwing??? I remember last contest there was even a map called "Blitzkrieg"! Now, that is just wrong!!! People should be more sensitive about this.
Why don't TLMC admins feedback the respective map makers and ask for changes before posting maps like these???
Swastikas can have other meanings. they are a symbol for auspiciousness in hinduism and buddhism. Hindus draw them on entrances during parties and stuff. And their located on this map right near entrances, so i'm pretty sure thats what the author of this map meant when he/she put them there.
Edit: they also can mean good luck. and in starcraft, it's common to start by saying "good luck,have fun"
...yes, they can mean other things, but that isn't how most people are going to interpret them. People are going to see swastikas and be like OH HOLY SHIT A NEO-NAZI. That is a problem.
On May 01 2014 12:56 Die4Ever wrote: Hmm are 2 in 1 maps good? The idea seems to be getting popular. I guess it nerfs the loser's map pick in tournaments that use that format. It also affects Proleague because you plan to go out on a map, but don't know which of the 2 in 1 it will be.
Proleague is not obliged to pick up any map, regardless of whether it's used in WCS. Plus they actually invented 2 in 1 maps with Korhal Floating Island (atleast in competitive play) which everyone seems to have forgotten as Blizzard is getting plenty of false praise for inventing that concept.
They definitely did not invent it. It was already done back in 2011 by Mereel's TPW Damage Inc (altho only used in NASL season 3 qualifier). And maybe even before that.
Definitely think Foxtrot is the best map out of the five 1v1s. Seems no matter what spawn you get you'll see different styles of gameplay. NW and SE spawns you might see fast gold 3rds, yet the regular 3rd base is close enough and tucked away in the corner that it is "somewhat" easilyh defendable. NE and SW spawns, might be a little 2 base or die for most protoss because the only viable 3rd is quite far away and it is extremely open. Or you take the tucked away third but then you have to knock down rocks which opens you up even more. Aesthetics are solid, layout is solid, well done Uvantak!
Catallena is my #2. Kamala Park is my #3. Deadwing is my #4. Biome is my #5.
If somebody wants me to go into more details I can, but /shrug, good enough!
I'm happy my map is given a chance for the team maps, yet I still honestly believe it would be a better 1v1 map then 2v2, although /shrug, guess it could be pretty fun although I think in a 2v2 situation it might be almost impossible to ever get off 1 base lol. Are multiple paths into the main really that unfavorable that it's pretty much auto-denied for a 1v1 setting?
On May 02 2014 10:46 SidianTheBard wrote: Definitely think Foxtrot is the best map out of the five 1v1s. Seems no matter what spawn you get you'll see different styles of gameplay. NW and SE spawns you might see fast gold 3rds, yet the regular 3rd base is close enough and tucked away in the corner that it is "somewhat" easilyh defendable. NE and SW spawns, might be a little 2 base or die for most protoss because the only viable 3rd is quite far away and it is extremely open. Or you take the tucked away third but then you have to knock down rocks which opens you up even more. Aesthetics are solid, layout is solid, well done Uvantak!
Catallena is my #2. Kamala Park is my #3. Deadwing is my #4. Biome is my #5.
If somebody wants me to go into more details I can, but /shrug, good enough!
I'm happy my map is given a chance for the team maps, yet I still honestly believe it would be a better 1v1 map then 2v2, although /shrug, guess it could be pretty fun although I think in a 2v2 situation it might be almost impossible to ever get off 1 base lol. Are multiple paths into the main really that unfavorable that it's pretty much auto-denied for a 1v1 setting?
Go into details!! You and I think alike!!
When we first got the shortlist of maps, Foxtrot immediately jumped out at me as being an incredibly well thought-out and artfully-made map. I'll be sad if it doesn't win, but I think it deserves this win far and away.
Biome and Deadwing were my last picks as well, but they are still playable and still yield fun and interesting games.
And yeah, controlling two ramps is just a little too difficult. If you're playing a PvP and an immortal push walks up to your ramp; you FF the ramp while waiting on extra tech. But what do you do if suddenly your opponent can walk 4-6 zealots around into the main? What if they just send two sentries, FF your entire army on the ramp, and then gang-bang it with their superior immortal army? In a ZvZ, if you can't control the ramp, you end up with endless ling/bling because that's the superior choice. We would end up seeing a complete devolution of this matchup, Considering ling runbys, the power of warpins, and the ability for mines to walk freely into mineral lines, etc., you can see why something like this would cause the game to become highly volatile and kill a lot of strategic options.
On May 02 2014 10:46 SidianTheBard wrote: Definitely think Foxtrot is the best map out of the five 1v1s. Seems no matter what spawn you get you'll see different styles of gameplay. NW and SE spawns you might see fast gold 3rds, yet the regular 3rd base is close enough and tucked away in the corner that it is "somewhat" easilyh defendable. NE and SW spawns, might be a little 2 base or die for most protoss because the only viable 3rd is quite far away and it is extremely open. Or you take the tucked away third but then you have to knock down rocks which opens you up even more. Aesthetics are solid, layout is solid, well done Uvantak!
Catallena is my #2. Kamala Park is my #3. Deadwing is my #4. Biome is my #5.
If somebody wants me to go into more details I can, but /shrug, good enough!
I'm happy my map is given a chance for the team maps, yet I still honestly believe it would be a better 1v1 map then 2v2, although /shrug, guess it could be pretty fun although I think in a 2v2 situation it might be almost impossible to ever get off 1 base lol. Are multiple paths into the main really that unfavorable that it's pretty much auto-denied for a 1v1 setting?
Go into details!! You and I think alike!!
When we first got the shortlist of maps, Foxtrot immediately jumped out at me as being an incredibly well thought-out and artfully-made map. I'll be sad if it doesn't win, but I think it deserves this win far and away.
Biome and Deadwing were my last picks as well, but they are still playable and still yield fun and interesting games.
And yeah, controlling two ramps is just a little too difficult. If you're playing a PvP and an immortal push walks up to your ramp; you FF the ramp while waiting on extra tech. But what do you do if suddenly your opponent can walk 4-6 zealots around into the main? What if they just send two sentries, FF your entire army on the ramp, and then gang-bang it with their superior immortal army? In a ZvZ, if you can't control the ramp, you end up with endless ling/bling because that's the superior choice. We would end up seeing a complete devolution of this matchup, Considering ling runbys, the power of warpins, and the ability for mines to walk freely into mineral lines, etc., you can see why something like this would cause the game to become highly volatile and kill a lot of strategic options.
okay okay, fiiiiine haha.
2nd place: Catallena
This is just a really nice 3 player map that has the opportunity to have either really short or really long games on it. There is a lot of space between the natural ramp and the main base/3rd, which means attacks/harass/all-ins could be very strong, yet with the placement of the 3rds/4ths assuming scouting is correct you should be able to get into the mid/late game and create interesting gameplay. I'm really interested because I think we could see some terran tank/hellion pushes like the good ole Metalopolis days when terrans would siege the low ground and elevator troops up into the main, which we actually don't see all that often anymore but I believe it would be very strong on this map. Blue Flame Slayers Build making a comeback?!?!
Plus, it would be timmay that would randomly throw in a 3p map and get top 5. Dude is pretty damn amazing with 3p maps.
3rd Place: Kamala Park
Although I don't think this map offers much in uniqueness, I think just the fact that it is a "4player" (2 in 1) map that is solid makes it deserve 3rd place. I could see many games getting to a 5 base vs 5 base because essentially it's "only" two chokes that you have to watch. I actually think the middle bases will rarely get used at all because you will always expand horizontally. The aesthetics from Uvantak are amazing, hell, I'd even say he might be one of the best aesthetic mappers in sc2 atm.
So overall, I feel this is the most "standard" map we have in the top 5. It might be a little boring overall, but honestly there is nothing wrong with a standard map with killer good looks.
4th Place: Deadwing
A lot of people seem to be complaining about how "turtly" this map is but honestly I don't think that's really the case. Taking the forward middle ground 3rd gives you a pretty big risk because your minerals are exposed to the lowground, yet taking the low ground third not only opens up extra chokes for you to defend but also that mineral wall is exposed to air heavily which means ping-ponging between that 3rd and the main would be extremely powerful. I do think having overlords / sensor tower will make defending any type of harass fairly easy so it might get a little dull mid/end game because it could be hard to attack into your opponent though.
I think some of the pathing, especially around the sides of the map could use some work. The double bases with the rock tower separating it is pretty boring overall and the high ground path behind those is just the same, boring. Those bases are so hard to defend, plus they are expanding toward your opponent, that I just don't see the point of ever expanding to them unless it gets to late late game, which would be when you need to take your 9th base...which...will happen 1 out of every 2k games. The pathing at the 12/9 o'clock is neat but it will also cause a lot of trouble end game when you have to maneuver your army around your bases, might be too powerful for certain races and might be too annoying for certain races.
5th Place: CJ Biome
I'm sorry to NemRaC but I just dislike this map completely. Sure it's a 5p map so it's kind of interesting, but everything just feels so clumped together. Bases are extremely linear, pathing is extremely linear, textures are okay but look a little bland. (honestly it's blizzards fault for not allowing us to use more textures in maps)
Sure there are some neat things you could do with Blink, drops or air harass. But I think between forcefields, using buildings to create chokes/walls and how simple it can be to turtle on 4 base I think this map will become incredibly dull incredibly fast.
Again, I don't want to sound like a jerk and just bash this map and I honestly hope it gets some games played on it and it proves my thoughts completely wrong, but from someone who has been mapping in sc2 since beta, looking at this overview, I dunno man...just...kinda wtfmate?
Lots of these maps look pretty cool. The only problem is that they are just terribly designed in terms of balance and expansion layout. I really wanted to like Biome, because I think a 5 player map that forces X spawns would be nice, but the expansions are just god-awful.
Catallena isn't bad, but I think it was (like Biome) trying too hard to be unique and stylistic, resulting in a not-really-viable competitive map.
Deadwing got my vote, as it was by far the best in terms of expo layouts, and I feel it's just large enough so that games don't completely suck and just small enough so that games don't completely suck.
On April 30 2014 22:12 Liquid`Snute wrote: Sacred Path reminds me of Arid Wastes, these types of maps produce fun-to-watch cars'n'dogs ZT v ZT minigames but aren't that interesting in the long run maybe? I think AEM Preservation seems like a great 2v2 map.
On May 02 2014 05:15 MrMischelito wrote: What??? WTF is up with the swastikas on Deadwing??? I remember last contest there was even a map called "Blitzkrieg"! Now, that is just wrong!!! People should be more sensitive about this.
Why don't TLMC admins feedback the respective map makers and ask for changes before posting maps like these???
Why should we all react the way media tells us to towards these symbols? I will not give more power to the symbol of the swastika by being offended. BUT that is my opinion. I totally can sympathize with anyway who has your reaction, the difference is I'm not getting mad because you react differently then me.
Ok so after playing on all of them here's a more detailed post and ranking.
1) Kamala Park.
Not only is this one of the most visually beautiful maps I've ever seen, it also fits right into solid standard play while still staying "fresh" through being a 2-maps-in-1 design.
- Bottom right and top left allow for more aggressive gameplay (mostly in PvZ because zerg has to take the forward base) but you can also break down the rocks in your natural and take a very safe third base. I love the little blinkable spots in the back of the main base. Makes blink a viable harass option without being another one of those maps. The forward third base is surprisingly open and you have to go up a ramp to get to it if you take the direct route so even though it is a bit more exposed, it should be defendable for zergs. If protoss attacks into the area between natural and third base, that's where they can really utilize forcefields well so any sort of 2-3 base aggressive play against that third base is still definitely viable. The way the main base is "pointed" at your opponent makes it a good target for drop play all game long and also gives terran lots of room to kite inside the base.
- Bottom left/top right are veeeery safe starting locations with three easily defended bases. Immortal all ins look stronger in these spawns actually since it's harder to set up flanks/no ramp you have to walk up - just attack right into the natural which is very forcefieldy. But the high ground from third base should allow zergs to set up enough of a concave with high ground advantage to deflect an attack like that with good control. Still definitely a build to watch out for. As for TvP, blink isn't an option in these positions as the main base isn't blinkable at all. If you drop the main base as terran you get right to the mineral line, making that a must-defend location for protoss. Otherwise though every base you'll end up taking is pretty straight forward to defend.
Verdict: This map has a perfect natural flow to it and fits right in. You also have to play on it to realize just how GODDAMN beautiful it is.
2) Foxtrot.
First of all congrats to Uvantak for getting both my top ranks. I played on this map against a zerg teammate and had a super fun game. As it says in the OP, this map really pushes for non-standard map features such as the gold minerals in the middle, the base layouts and the two high ground lanes in the middle. It reminded me a lot of Cloud Kingdom, my favorite map of all time, once you go past the three base stage. The high ground lanes were the key locations we tried to gain control over as they obviously give high ground advantage to the one who controls it, making it easier to defend/discourage/stall frontal attacks as the defender (especially in the middle) - the attacker has to walk up a ramp at some point to reach your bases.
One thing to note is that since it's not forced cross spawns (only forced non-vertical spawns), the flight distance from main to natural (for example bottom right main -> bottom left natural) in horizontal spawns might favor one player in some situations.
Verdict: Way too many strategical options for me to write down. This is a map that might take ages to fully explore but what I've seen of it so far feels very fun and dynamic.
3) Catallena.
I only played one game on this so far. The initial three base layout (and the way the map plays out overall) worked a bit like a smaller version of Whirlwind with a bit less focus on the middle area initially. As the game goes longer, the octopus seems to be the main point of contention. I like that blink is viable on this map but the surface area to blink in from the forward third base and the travel distance between there and natural shouldn't make it too strong. This seems like a very good immortal all in map. Two forcefield natural ramp makes it extremely easy to be greedy as protoss.
Worth noting, in case people are wondering, the ledge above the natural can NOT be dropped. Same with the one above the third.
The third base is VERY susceptible to any sort of forcefield attack (and very easy to defend with them as well). It takes four FFs to completely seal off the choke leading to it, three FFs to use the third itself as a wall, two FFs to block the ramp leading up to it. Meanwhile the army can take position behind the gas geysers. Overall I think any playstyle involving forcefields, but especially a blink stalker/sentry/colossus playstyle would be extremely hard to break on this map. Overall the map may be a bit too protoss favored.
Looks like a really good mech map too.
Verdict: The most interesting aspect of this map to me is that it's very easy to punish army positioning through gaining high ground advantages all over the map, even in the center - only exception is the third base.
4) Deadwing.
I don't think taking 10 bases has ever been as easy as it is on this map. Four bases - extremely easy to defend in terms of army positioning - main point of contention is the "entry" to your initial four bases. And then, the further you expand (say you spawn top left and continue expanding downward), there's never more than 2 key locations to cover all your bases at once (except from drops and potential runbys through the backdoor bridge). The way the watchtowers are positioned makes that exact scenario even more potent.
Very good map for protoss deathballs and big mech armies (tank drops are possible at the west/east bases which could be cool). Worth noting though is that while army positioning may be easy, the map is still very wide open and doesn't really favor forcefields at all.
Verdict: Seems like a very standard, Alterzim-esque map with very straight forward army movement and positioning.
5) CJ Biome.
I didn't like this map at all playing on it to be honest. It seems too forced, it only really has one attack path through the middle which is really wide open and 360° airspace doesn't really make up for it.
The map is a lot smaller than it looks, the rush distance from your third to theirs is really small (it takes a probe 25 ingame seconds). I don't like the initial 4 base layout for reasons that have been mentioned - really easy to sit your army in one place and cover all of them. PvZ has issues very similar to Daedalus - it encourages 2 base attacks because of the rush distance but discourages them because of how open the center is. And if you don't attack you're taking a third base towards the zerg, making it incredibly easy for them to mass up a strong roach/hydra army off 3 bases, move out and be right at your door.
360° airspace around the main for air units to fly around in, mineral lines toward the edges at your natural, third and 4th base where you can't chase air units with a ground army make it incredibly easy to fly in, pick off workers and get out safely.
Taking a 5th base forces you into the middle. There's no way around it, no pathways to move your army to outlying bases without exposing it in the middle. Once you do that it's very easy for your opponent to run around the other side of the hole in the middle and avoid your army to send units into your initial 4 bases. At that point the game does open up and creates dynamic harass possibilities but it happens very late in the game.
Worth noting is also that visually it looks by far the least appealing out of all these maps.
Verdict: Very easy to turtle on 4 bases once you have a strong army, very hard to recover from failed early aggression because of how close the rush distance to your third base is. Gets a lot better past the 4 base stage though.
Agreed. I especially love the top two. i really wish I liked CJ Biome, the concept is sorta cool. There's just a few too many things wrong with it for the coolness factor to carry it through
CJ Biome reminds me of an old Dawn of War map which looked kinda similar. Although resembling an obscure Dawn of War map is actually not a very positive trait (don't get me wrong - Dawn of War is awesome, but some of the maps were kinda bad).
Voted Kamala Park because of the beautiful doodads!
I'm interested in seeing how those ramp choke points are going to change how battles are fought. Currently most big battles are very one dimensional i.e. a mutalingbane TvZ on King Sejong plays very similarly to a mutalingbane on Frost. This sort of map architecture creates never-before-seen choke points and cool micro scenarios.
Also it's nice and rectangular. Circular maps just mindfuck me.
CJ Biome would be a great pick if it had restricted air routes. The 360 air route thing shoulda been put on a more standard map first. I feel air routes will completely overshadow the uniqueness of the ground route architecture.
KTV Foxtrot has all the stylistic points that I like about KTV Kamala Park except it's too large. It will be a great map once Kamala Park gets figured out. Before that, keep the changes 1 at a time.
I settled on Kamala Park, because smaller maps need to start being all the rage again, and it's even better looking than Foxtrot, which looks plenty great to begin with.
I hope, hope, hope that this doesn't happen, but I have this dreadful suspicion that the people who like Uvantek's maps are gonna split their votes between two maps, but might not give one an edge over the other... and then some other map is gonna take it. Put another way, Uvantek might have had a better shot of winning had he only gotten one map into the top 5.