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On November 28 2015 19:55 OtherWorld wrote: I think most people here are completely missing the OP's point.
He is not stating that profanity is downright offensive.
He is not stating that we should have a bland casting.
He is stating that the use of profanity in high-profile events makes the game look immature to both viewers and sponsors. Is he correct? Yes. This isn't an issue though. iNcontroL has talked about this on his stream before. Tournament organizers will tell casters what words they can and cannot say before events go live. The level of professionalism is up to the event organizers. It's not casters walking out and deciding on the fly if they're going to be professional or laid back. It's a pointless conversation because the organizers are the ones dictating the level of professionalism to help create the environment they want at their events. We've started a thread about casters when we should be talking about event organizers, if anything. Surely, the people running the events have good reason for why they allow or don't allow certain words.
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I am not a fan of swearing and unprofessional casting which is why watching Dreamhack, Demuslim and Nathanias in particular, has been very difficult. My strategy is watching VODS now and seeing who the caster is before I decide to watch, this is a real shame because it feels like I am not supporting the tournament
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On November 28 2015 18:13 VorGirL wrote: Id like to be able to watch tournaments with my daughter, not gonna happen while they're using profanity.
why? thats just stupid, profanity is not different from other words in the english language.
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once again americans find watching characters killing each other less harmful than using the word fuck :s
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On November 28 2015 20:43 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 18:13 VorGirL wrote: Id like to be able to watch tournaments with my daughter, not gonna happen while they're using profanity. why? thats just stupid, profanity is not different from other words in the english language. And I highly recommend to watch children-series like maya the bee. There are a lot profanity and high level banters which little kids still dont understand.
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I don't understand how something can be less fun just because people use bad words. Its what is said, not how its said.
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Tastosis is a good example of casters who don't use profanity. But I remember tasteless said "fucking" once on camera during a GSL live stream. Clearly it just popped out, and wasn't intentional. It was very funny though.
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On November 28 2015 20:43 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 18:13 VorGirL wrote: Id like to be able to watch tournaments with my daughter, not gonna happen while they're using profanity. why? thats just stupid, profanity is not different from other words in the english language.
You do realize that many children are mostly not comfortable with profanity, right?
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Well that's just DH, you can like it or not.They have a certain image and I'm sure they would tell their casters if they thought they are too unprofessional. I'm sure MLG would be more strict, but it's good that tournaments are different imo. I enjoy the casting at DH a ton and love the atmosphere and banter going on. Apollo is kinda crazy these day and jokes around a lot, but I think that's fine as long as it fits the tournament and the co-casters are fine with it. For DH, NW or HSC it's perfect imo .
About kids watching, it's not like they are really swearing a lot on stream. I don't think they sad a single bad thing so far. The occasional "fuck" (not sure if that even happened) or "shit" is really nothing to worry about and most likely not intentional. If your kid is in elementary school, it is exposed to a lot worse every day, if not, it shouldn't be watching tbh.
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On November 28 2015 18:24 JackONeill wrote: No one in Europe gives a flyinf fuck if profanties are used. It's a north american thing to be offended by langage. Which is kinda ridiculous. try calling someone a "fucking nazi" or saying something similar to "you'll be cooked like a jew in auschwitz" in on a sponsored broadcast then tell me europe doesnt care about language... there are cultural connotations with words everywhere that cause people to prickle up, that's the point of language... Koreans, for that matter, are no different.. in fact, the korean language itself is even MORE expressive when you want to express the feeling of respect of hate, and you can be sure that you won't see an MSL caster cussing out a player
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On November 28 2015 19:17 motbob wrote: That's a very self-centered way of viewing the issue. To say that one culture is silly for viewing a word as offensive simply disregards differences in the ways the word is used in that culture. It's kind of amusing to see a non-native speaker presume to say that because his culture treats a word a certain way, that the word's native culture should also treat it that way.
Words are not offensive or inoffensive because of some kind of puritanical goggles that people wear. Words are offensive because of their weight. The word "fuck" is offensive in America because it is quite often used in offensive ways: I'll fuck your mother; Go fuck yourself; etc. It is often used when a person wants to hurt another person as deeply as possible with his words. "Fuck" itself carries that baggage. And saying we should be able to cast off that baggage because other countries use it for exclusively harmless purposes is about as workable as me telling a black man that I should be able to use the n-word in friendly conversation because I don't mean anything bad by it. The word carries the weight of centuries of degradation towards a certain race. Whether or not I think it's wrong for the word to have that weight, even today, isn't relevant. It is what it is.
I'm merely illustrating how people do things in other countries. You seem to be misunderstanding that I wasn't talking about english profanities when talking about french casts. I was talking about their french counterparts.
And being offended by a word is ridiculous regardless of me being or not native. Langage isn't offensive, lack of respect is. Igaguz giving the finger to Has in WCS, I can totally understand why people might find it disrespectfull, to the player and to the institution. However, a caster shouting "he got fucked right in the ass by this push" isn't disrespectfull to anyone. The use of profanity has a non offensive purpose, it's used for emphasis.
If I ever hear a caster saying this player or that caster is a first class thundercunt, I'd agree that this use of profanity is disrespectfull and shouldn't be said on air. And by the way, in any langage, trying to hurt someone with strong words is a teenager thing. Saying "fuck your mother", ou "va niquer ta mère" is disrespectfull, sure, but is so generic it can be totally disregarded, whereas saying to someone that he's an inspiration for birth control is way more insulting, without using any profanities.
On November 28 2015 21:39 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 18:24 JackONeill wrote: No one in Europe gives a flyinf fuck if profanties are used. It's a north american thing to be offended by langage. Which is kinda ridiculous. try calling someone a "fucking nazi" or saying something similar to "you'll be cooked like a jew in auschwitz" in on a sponsored broadcast then tell me europe doesnt care about language... there are cultural connotations with words everywhere that cause people to prickle up, that's the point of language... Koreans, for that matter, are no different.. in fact, the korean language itself is even MORE expressive when you want to express the feeling of respect of hate, and you can be sure that you won't see an MSL caster cussing out a player
My point exactly. Saying to someone he's going to be "cooked like a jew in auschwitz" doesn't use any rude/profane words. It's the evocation of the suffering of a people that can offends a community, and that's completly normal. But it's not because you say "you'll be cooked like a FUCKING jew in auschwitz" that it's more hurtfull.
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On November 28 2015 21:40 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 19:17 motbob wrote: That's a very self-centered way of viewing the issue. To say that one culture is silly for viewing a word as offensive simply disregards differences in the ways the word is used in that culture. It's kind of amusing to see a non-native speaker presume to say that because his culture treats a word a certain way, that the word's native culture should also treat it that way.
Words are not offensive or inoffensive because of some kind of puritanical goggles that people wear. Words are offensive because of their weight. The word "fuck" is offensive in America because it is quite often used in offensive ways: I'll fuck your mother; Go fuck yourself; etc. It is often used when a person wants to hurt another person as deeply as possible with his words. "Fuck" itself carries that baggage. And saying we should be able to cast off that baggage because other countries use it for exclusively harmless purposes is about as workable as me telling a black man that I should be able to use the n-word in friendly conversation because I don't mean anything bad by it. The word carries the weight of centuries of degradation towards a certain race. Whether or not I think it's wrong for the word to have that weight, even today, isn't relevant. It is what it is. I'm merely illustrating how people do things in other countries. You seem to be misunderstanding that I wasn't talking about english profanities when talking about french casts. I was talking about their french counterparts. And being offended by a word is ridiculous regardless of me being or not native. Langage isn't offensive, lack of respect is. Igaguz giving the finger to Has in WCS, I can totally understand why people might find it disrespectfull, to the player and to the institution. However, a caster shouting "he got fucked right in the ass by this push" isn't disrespectfull to anyone. The use of profanity has a non offensive purpose, it's used for emphasis. If I ever hear a caster saying this player or that caster is a first class thundercunt, I'd agree that this use of profanity is disrespectfull and shouldn't be said on air. And by the way, in any langage, trying to hurt someone with strong words is a teenager thing. Saying "fuck your mother", ou "va niquer ta mère" is disrespectfull, sure, but is so generic it can be totally disregarded, whereas saying to someone that he's an inspiration for birth control is way more insulting, without using any profanities. Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 21:39 Endymion wrote:On November 28 2015 18:24 JackONeill wrote: No one in Europe gives a flyinf fuck if profanties are used. It's a north american thing to be offended by langage. Which is kinda ridiculous. try calling someone a "fucking nazi" or saying something similar to "you'll be cooked like a jew in auschwitz" in on a sponsored broadcast then tell me europe doesnt care about language... there are cultural connotations with words everywhere that cause people to prickle up, that's the point of language... Koreans, for that matter, are no different.. in fact, the korean language itself is even MORE expressive when you want to express the feeling of respect of hate, and you can be sure that you won't see an MSL caster cussing out a player My point exactly. Saying to someone he's going to be "cooked like a jew in auschwitz" doesn't use any rude/profane words. It's the evocation of the suffering of a people that can offends a community, and that's completly normal. But it's not because you say "you'll be cooked like a FUCKING jew in auschwitz" that it's more hurtfull.
right, you can't expect a random stranger to understand anything other than the colloquial usage/implication of a word... if i call someone a fag, i 100% don't mean it in a gay bashing way, but normal people take it as a gay bashing word.. if i use it in a public setting, i would be an idiot to not expect it to be taken in a gay bashing way, regardless of how i intended it.. same with the word fuck, if i say it a lot to my friends the meaning is lessened, but if i use it in a public setting people still take it at face value because they don't have the same "exposure" that i do. it's this mutual understanding of publicly acceptable words that allow strangers to communicate effectively and efficiently without needlessly and usually accidentally offending and or annoying a complete stranger.. generally, broadcasters follow this to a T
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On November 28 2015 19:55 OtherWorld wrote: I think most people here are completely missing the OP's point.
He is not stating that profanity is downright offensive.
He is not stating that we should have a bland casting.
He is stating that the use of profanity in high-profile events makes the game look immature to both viewers and sponsors. Is he correct? Yes.
They will do whatever the sponsor requests. If Roccat doesn't like their casting they would tell them and the casters would do as they are told to do. The fact that the stream is as it is, proves that Roccat and DH are okay with it or even like it.
The OP says it might look immature to viewers, but it might also look more fun to viewers. Apollo, Nate, Demuslim, Snute appear a lot more approachable than some professional guys in suits would. Lots of people can relate way better to them and the game because of it.
People just have to accept that there are different styles, DH has chosen theirs and has been the way it is for years. They target a different audience than OP might like, but that's not out of accident or because the casters are immature. That's deliberate.
I understand there are cultural differences too, but that's just how it is and DH should not change because of it. I think it's ridiculous when casters are wearing suits at Redbull events, but that's just how they like do it and I'm okay with that.
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On November 28 2015 21:50 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 19:55 OtherWorld wrote: I think most people here are completely missing the OP's point.
He is not stating that profanity is downright offensive.
He is not stating that we should have a bland casting.
He is stating that the use of profanity in high-profile events makes the game look immature to both viewers and sponsors. Is he correct? Yes. They will do whatever the sponsor requests. If Roccat doesn't like their casting they would tell them and the casters would do as they are told to do. The fact that the stream is as it is, proves that Roccat and DH are okay with it or even like it. The OP says it might look immature to viewers, but it might also look more fun to viewers. Apollo, Nate, Demuslim, Snute appear a lot more approachable than some professional guys in suits would. Lots of people can relate way better to them and the game because of it. People just have to accept that there are different styles, DH has chosen theirs and has been the way it is for years. They target a different audience than OP might like, but that's not out of accident or because the casters are immature. That's deliberate. I understand there are cultural differences too, but that's just how it is and DH should not change because of it. I think it's ridiculous when casters are wearing suits at Redbull events, but that's just how they like do it and I'm okay with that. Sure, I agree with you, I didn't say that it was necessarily bad for DH to be immature. I mean, the whole point of DH since the dawn of times is to be immature in order to appear more casual/funnier.
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On November 28 2015 21:47 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2015 21:40 JackONeill wrote:On November 28 2015 19:17 motbob wrote: That's a very self-centered way of viewing the issue. To say that one culture is silly for viewing a word as offensive simply disregards differences in the ways the word is used in that culture. It's kind of amusing to see a non-native speaker presume to say that because his culture treats a word a certain way, that the word's native culture should also treat it that way.
Words are not offensive or inoffensive because of some kind of puritanical goggles that people wear. Words are offensive because of their weight. The word "fuck" is offensive in America because it is quite often used in offensive ways: I'll fuck your mother; Go fuck yourself; etc. It is often used when a person wants to hurt another person as deeply as possible with his words. "Fuck" itself carries that baggage. And saying we should be able to cast off that baggage because other countries use it for exclusively harmless purposes is about as workable as me telling a black man that I should be able to use the n-word in friendly conversation because I don't mean anything bad by it. The word carries the weight of centuries of degradation towards a certain race. Whether or not I think it's wrong for the word to have that weight, even today, isn't relevant. It is what it is. I'm merely illustrating how people do things in other countries. You seem to be misunderstanding that I wasn't talking about english profanities when talking about french casts. I was talking about their french counterparts. And being offended by a word is ridiculous regardless of me being or not native. Langage isn't offensive, lack of respect is. Igaguz giving the finger to Has in WCS, I can totally understand why people might find it disrespectfull, to the player and to the institution. However, a caster shouting "he got fucked right in the ass by this push" isn't disrespectfull to anyone. The use of profanity has a non offensive purpose, it's used for emphasis. If I ever hear a caster saying this player or that caster is a first class thundercunt, I'd agree that this use of profanity is disrespectfull and shouldn't be said on air. And by the way, in any langage, trying to hurt someone with strong words is a teenager thing. Saying "fuck your mother", ou "va niquer ta mère" is disrespectfull, sure, but is so generic it can be totally disregarded, whereas saying to someone that he's an inspiration for birth control is way more insulting, without using any profanities. On November 28 2015 21:39 Endymion wrote:On November 28 2015 18:24 JackONeill wrote: No one in Europe gives a flyinf fuck if profanties are used. It's a north american thing to be offended by langage. Which is kinda ridiculous. try calling someone a "fucking nazi" or saying something similar to "you'll be cooked like a jew in auschwitz" in on a sponsored broadcast then tell me europe doesnt care about language... there are cultural connotations with words everywhere that cause people to prickle up, that's the point of language... Koreans, for that matter, are no different.. in fact, the korean language itself is even MORE expressive when you want to express the feeling of respect of hate, and you can be sure that you won't see an MSL caster cussing out a player My point exactly. Saying to someone he's going to be "cooked like a jew in auschwitz" doesn't use any rude/profane words. It's the evocation of the suffering of a people that can offends a community, and that's completly normal. But it's not because you say "you'll be cooked like a FUCKING jew in auschwitz" that it's more hurtfull. right, you can't expect a random stranger to understand anything other than the colloquial usage/implication of a word... if i call someone a fag, i 100% don't mean it in a gay bashing way, but normal people take it as a gay bashing word.. if i use it in a public setting, i would be an idiot to not expect it to be taken in a gay bashing way, regardless of how i intended it.. same with the word fuck, if i say it a lot to my friends the meaning is lessened, but if i use it in a public setting people still take it at face value because they don't have the same "exposure" that i do. it's this mutual understanding of publicly acceptable words that allow strangers to communicate effectively and efficiently without needlessly and usually accidentally offending and or annoying a complete stranger.. generally, broadcasters follow this to a T
I don't see how this has something to do with the fact I'm not american (which makes me a foreign guy, not a stranger, mh?). You're talking about the difference between the private and public langage, which is common to all countries I suppose.
As I said I've been watching the english dreamhack stream, and I've not heard any real rude langage. Also, since the american community in SC2 isn't the majority by a large margin, and since the casters are mainly english/foreign, I don't see how american sensibility should be prioritised over english, french, german or italian sensibility. Especially since we mainly hear english people talking english (and not american). I think what you're doing is called "bigotry" in english (or american if you want to), I'm not sure.
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On November 28 2015 20:07 ZenithM wrote: "Fuck" is just a very strong word in the US, and not one to say in public with strangers, or in a professional or broadcasting context. Genuine question: Do you watch American TV shows? Since you are French you might not see them that often, however as Dutch they are broadcasted here quite often. And enough of them use 'fuck' reasonably often. They just put a *beep* over it, but with such a timing that everyone know what was being said.
That is similar to what I see sometimes being written, can someone honestly tell me writing 'fuck' is worse than writing 'f*ck'? The same for beeping, everyone knows what is being said, but adding a beep over it suddenly makes it completely okay?
So if 'fuck' is such a horrible word in the US, I am a bit surprised they use it so often.
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it's pretty cool that most of the ppl complaining aren't watching/don't understand what's being said on Ogaming :D
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On November 28 2015 20:19 InFluenza wrote: Europeans don't care about profanity as much as Americans, let's be clear about this. You folks just seem butt hurt so quickly by things that are said!
I heard Demuslim saying the word 'rape' a few times during his casting and at the time, I knew what he was trying to say and that's that. How twisted can you be in your mind to confuse 'rape' in the way Demuslim used it with what the word actually stands for? The same goes for the word 'fuck'. It's just a word, used to make something sound heavier and make what you are saying stand out more. Do you Americans really think of sexual intercourse when you hear the word fuck? I can't really wrap my mind around that. Actually you're wrong. The Europeans who don't care about profanity in English are those whose native language is not English and who've learned English largely through watching American TV shows and music videos (usually aimed at the lowest common denominator of the American audience).
I don't know about you, but cursing every other sentence in Dutch makes one appear either as an angsty teenager or some lowly educated peasant, i.e. hardly someone fit for professional broadcasts. If you ever go to the UK, you'll notice that people rarely use profanities because it's just plain rude.
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When Rotterdam says "oh man, thats a fucked up situation for him", it is professional for me.
He talks about the game and he expresses how bad the situation is by using "strong words"
I have no problem with people/caster using strong language, as I think it is pretty nor,al to use it aslong you use it to describe situations and not persons For me it is inprofessional, when you smear your "personality" into the cast and start chatting with your cocaster, talk around the game and not about the game and bantering all the time, focus and "funny" jokes and even worse once and so on. On EG caster comes into my mind, but also Nathanias gets carried away and starts doing it. It kills passion.
From my many holidays in the USA, i know at least, that the use of strong language is offending for almost everyone there, it is like saying "No" in Japan. You just dont do it. The reason TV shows do it often is because this tabu also creates viewer. And TV show maker think that it makes the show more entertaining when useing strong language.
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