Why there's no SSL 2017
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geokilla
Canada8162 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
I would like to see SPOTV be able to host SC2 tournaments, and hopefully something will get figured out, but I think for many people they would rather see 3 GSLs than 2 GSLs and 2 SSLs. | ||
Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
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Thax
Belgium1060 Posts
On December 13 2016 00:00 geokilla wrote: https://twitter.com/GTR1H/status/808236602719731712 Thanks Blizzard for supporting the Korean scene! /sarcams Yes, thanks Blizzard for funneling almost as much money into Korea as into the rest of the world combined to the constant complaints of ingrates. | ||
Serimek
France2274 Posts
=> If they were to create a TeamLeague because they can't have part in the WCS system, I'd be quite happy with that. | ||
ihatevideogames
570 Posts
Especially after the Stork interview, anyone who comes out with comments defending them really seems like either a shill or a total drone. | ||
Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On December 13 2016 00:38 ihatevideogames wrote: Why are there so many drones mindlessly defending blizzard? Especially after the Stork interview, anyone who comes out with comments defending them really seems like either a shill or a total drone. What do you think was unreasonable or shilling? | ||
RvB
Netherlands6077 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On December 13 2016 00:53 RvB wrote: This makes no sense to me. Granting wcs points to SSL doesn't cost anything. Not sure what Blizzard is thinking here. It's probably not about granting WCS points to SSL, but distributing funding for WCS tournaments. I would imagine SSL is reliant on Blizzard money. | ||
Yiome
China1687 Posts
For me i think it won't just because of wcs points instead more about the money blizzard would provide and how they want to use them efficiently It is probably better to have 3 seasons of GSL + a few events that can last throughout the year than something like this year which was terrible with no Korea tournament since autumn, despite there were two tournaments running In the end the Korea scene is just too small and the amount of money Blizzard is willing to provide is limited that it is not possible to keep more than 1 local large scale tournament organized. And if that is the case then I agree Afreeca is probably the better choice here compared to SportTV | ||
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On December 13 2016 00:07 Pr0wler wrote: If you really want SSL 2017 then go ahead and fund it with your own money. This is actually an interesting thought - does anyone have an idea, how much subsidy does such a think need to run - not total cost, but net loss to be covered? | ||
Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On December 13 2016 00:56 Ansibled wrote: It's probably not about granting WCS points to SSL, but distributing funding for WCS tournaments. I would imagine SSL is reliant on Blizzard money. I'd say its that, prize money is just a fraction compared to production cost and Blizzard pumped the same prize money as last year. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On December 13 2016 01:02 opisska wrote: This is actually an interesting thought - does anyone have an idea, how much subsidy does such a think need to run - not total cost, but net loss to be covered? You could probably figure something rough out from this, since there is a cost breakdown. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/493879-hiat-afterthoughts | ||
brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On December 13 2016 01:04 Olli wrote: I'm not sure how true this is. I'd heard about the demise of SSL months before WCS 2017 was announced. Seems to me that they're just looking to blame it on Blizzard rather than own up and say that it simply isn't profitable for them. you can blame the fanbase for that. many starcraft players have been obsessed with the game for almost 20 years and can't be rational or reasonable about it. anyone who steps outside of being a starcraft fan can see that blizzard has already given the game more than they had to from a business standpoint and that it wasn't going to last forever no matter when the game "dies" it's had an incredible run, both the franchise and SC2 itself. lots of games aren't even popular when they're new, and SC2 is still being played competitively 4 years later. that's awesome. of course no one will want to take responsibility for dropping SC. SC fans can be very entitled and react angrily when there's no good reason to do so | ||
rotta
5560 Posts
On December 13 2016 00:38 ihatevideogames wrote: Why are there so many drones mindlessly defending blizzard? Especially after the Stork interview, anyone who comes out with comments defending them really seems like either a shill or a total drone. What interview? | ||
Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On December 13 2016 00:38 ihatevideogames wrote: Why are there so many drones mindlessly defending blizzard? Especially after the Stork interview, anyone who comes out with comments defending them really seems like either a shill or a total drone. Thinking that Blizzard could save proleague is naive at best and dumb at worst. Even if they could fund the tournament once the korean companies jumped ship it wouldn't have mattered anyway because then there wouldn't be any teams to play in it. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8774 Posts
At some point blizz can't just fund everything by themselves, SSL was rumour to be cancel from month, it's not like it was the WCS system that convince them. | ||
kugHop
Luxembourg44 Posts
Why do you blame everything on Blizzard? They literally pay people to put on a show for you knowing that they will not earn a cent for their troubles! How can you be so ungrateful just because they don't organize an event with 240 players every weekend and don't ask you to pay anything for it? I'm pretty sure that as soon as you would have to pay in order to watch SC2 even if it would mean more events, all of you "fans" who are jumping on the "insult Blizzard for killing Jesus or whatever-Train" would shy away from SC2 and cry out for free stuff. SPOTV literally just gives Blizzard the fault for ending SSL. Still they say themselves that the only reason SSL stops is that there won't be WCS points. (thanks for sharing geokilla, but I hope you will also start thinking in the future) They don't talk about costs, so following their statement, they could without a problem organise SSL, meaning they are too cowardly to come out and say that they either don't want to do it or can't do it but blaming Blizzard for it is just plain stupid and generating unnecessary anger. I'm a big supporter of the korean SC2 scene as I mainly watch their events. So be happy guys, we get 3 GSL, 1 more than last year, we get an IEM, 1 more than last year, as well as 2 Global Events outside of Blizzcon, 1 more than last year. And in addition, Korea gets close to the same prize pool than the rest of the world, so why do you keep crying? Just be freaking thankful that Mike Morhaim is still there and strongly supporting the game we all love. And before some "fans" start calling me a drone, slave, blind denier or whatever your destructive creativity comes up with, please try to think and develop arguments for why you would so strongly harass Blizzard, try to find a respectable reason in order to fuel a proper discussion. This being said, thanks to all for sharing the love for this wonderful game and I hope this is the last essay I have to write about this | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On December 13 2016 01:02 opisska wrote: This is actually an interesting thought - does anyone have an idea, how much subsidy does such a think need to run - not total cost, but net loss to be covered? I don't know enough to even speculate but the sponsorship situation in Korea is fairly poor, its fairly barren right now outside of SKT and KT funding teams, so I would guess its pretty close to "taking on the cost of the entire thing." Wax wrote a nice editorial on this that sums it up better than I can. | ||
xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
Those who defend them, ignoring all their lies and desiterest towards the community over the last 6 years, are just delusional. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 13 2016 00:38 ihatevideogames wrote: Why are there so many drones mindlessly defending blizzard? Especially after the Stork interview, anyone who comes out with comments defending them really seems like either a shill or a total drone. To be completely fair here, Inven Global have had a number of interviews mis-translated to create controversy in recent memory. For instance, there were a couple of interviews with Korean LoL players mistranslated to inflame east-west tension (and obviously drive traffic to their site). Wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened here. | ||
TheSayo182
Italy243 Posts
blizzard should be blamed for not making an interesting game, they are throwing a lot of money here | ||
lestye
United States4104 Posts
On December 13 2016 03:01 Heyoka wrote: I don't know enough to even speculate but the sponsorship situation in Korea is fairly poor, its fairly barren right now outside of SKT and KT funding teams, so I would guess its pretty close to "taking on the cost of the entire thing." Wax wrote a nice editorial on this that sums it up better than I can. I wish everyone on TL could read that article. As much as SC2 is hemorrhaging teams, the sponsorship scene in the esports Mecca of the world is not doing well either. It's not like there's tons of money in other games, including brood war sponsorships which aren't exactly the great looking thing ever. | ||
FFgringo
44 Posts
That's enough for me to be happy. | ||
Kaizor
Singapore908 Posts
On December 13 2016 03:12 Plexa wrote: To be completely fair here, Inven Global have had a number of interviews mis-translated to create controversy in recent memory. For instance, there were a couple of interviews with Korean LoL players mistranslated to inflame east-west tension (and obviously drive traffic to their site). Wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened here. I saw the korean article of stork being interviewed translated into chinese and was going to translate it into english but when i saw that they actually had an official english version of it, i didn't bothered. Now that you mentioned it, i actually took time to look at their english version and the translated chinese version. Guess what, in Inven's english version, there was something missing that was in the translated chinese version. Both versions mentioned something like "In their grand scheme of things, SC2 wasn't the only game out there and didn't need to be. " But Inven's english version stopped at there. The chinese translation had one more line after that, which was "In the end, the problem lies with the players" Mind you, this was a chinese translation from the original korean article. My chinese is good enough that i can translate the original chinese meaning into english but i cannot guarantee the chinese translation was accurate. But putting this into context, if you just read the english version, you would have come away with the feeling that stork had some resentment or was putting some blame on blizzard. But when i read the chinese translation, it felt more like he came to realize, maybe grudgingly, it wasn't blizzard or kespa's fault. Here is the link to the original korean article. http://sports.news.naver.com/esports/news/read.nhn?oid=442&aid=0000048513 I don't know any korean so mayb seeker or anybody good in it can check and see whether there was this line or something along the line of " In the end, the problem lies with the players " I think this is rather important because i think people are taking stork's interview as proof that blizzard is at fault/not supportive/lying when it could have been the interview just not translated properly enough. | ||
Kaizor
Singapore908 Posts
What do you expect them to do?? Pay for every single Korean team, coach and player? Pay for all the tournaments and not just the prize pool, even the administrative and logistical costs? Let's say they did all that. Are koreans going to go watch SC2 in the thousands? Is SC2 going to be popular in Korea? Let me give you another example. The football league is doing badly in my country. Dwindling attendence and rather poor support. Players are asked to take pay cuts for the next season. Struggling to get any sponsors or even renewed sponsor from the Main Sponsor. Following the same logic, FIFA is to blame for it !! FIFA should be showing more support. Paying for the league, the teams. More money !! See how nonsensical it is now? If the local scene cannot survive on its own, depending on external support aid or help is never healthy or good for its long term prospects. Furthermore external parties are not obliged to give any f*****g support. And even if FIFA was to start injecting money into my country's football scene. Does it mean my countrymen is going to start going to our stadiums and watch our football league. Sorry still no. And before anybody brings up Riot's example. Remember how many fans of LOL there are compared to SC2 fans. It all boils down to this for these people. Hey we foreign fans want a Korean scene. Blizzard better do something about it!! Meanwhile in Korea, the numbers show that just not enough Koreans give a damn about it for there to be a Strong, Healthy, Financially viable SC2 scene. End of story. | ||
Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
Last week, the plans for the 2017 WCS Circuit were announced and with the absence of the SSL, many people were saddened, including ourselves. The SSL was one of the flagship individual leagues in Korea, and as a major broadcasting company that has operated the SSL for the past two years, we are sorry for what has transpired. According to the announcement, the 2017 WCS Korea circuit announced that WCS points would only be allocated to the GSL. As such, since the SSL is not designated as a tournament which rewards WCS points, there is little to no point to operate the SSL. Seriously how can anyone think that this statement is anything but shameless PR BS? Like, they discovered the 2017 WCS plan last week? And, because of the fact they saw no SSL in the chart, they can't organize any SSL? Which is a pity, because they really wanted to organize it and would have, if only Blizzard had allocated some WCS points to the tournament? Are they really thinking we're that dumb? | ||
r_gg
141 Posts
That said, if Blizz deliberately chose GSL/Afreeca over SSL/SPOTV despite how much SPOTV has done for the scene even in its toughest times, I'll feel really bad for SPOTV. Doubt SPOTV had plans to continue though. | ||
BretZ
United States1510 Posts
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
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Alexcalibur1996
United States39 Posts
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SLimeSC2
20 Posts
foreigners = more viewers im finally starting to understand their logic! why they even bothered to award wcs points for gsl is beyond me. screw em all, i say! viewership > all. agree with blizzard on this one | ||
SLimeSC2
20 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13836 Posts
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SLimeSC2
20 Posts
On December 13 2016 05:27 Kaizor wrote: And I find it ridiculous that people are blaming blizzard for not supporting the Korean scene enough. What do you expect them to do?? Pay for every single Korean team, coach and player? Pay for all the tournaments and not just the prize pool, even the administrative and logistical costs? Let's say they did all that. Are koreans going to go watch SC2 in the thousands? Is SC2 going to be popular in Korea? Let me give you another example. The football league is doing badly in my country. Dwindling attendence and rather poor support. Players are asked to take pay cuts for the next season. Struggling to get any sponsors or even renewed sponsor from the Main Sponsor. Following the same logic, FIFA is to blame for it !! FIFA should be showing more support. Paying for the league, the teams. More money !! See how nonsensical it is now? If the local scene cannot survive on its own, depending on external support aid or help is never healthy or good for its long term prospects. Furthermore external parties are not obliged to give any f*****g support. And even if FIFA was to start injecting money into my country's football scene. Does it mean my countrymen is going to start going to our stadiums and watch our football league. Sorry still no. And before anybody brings up Riot's example. Remember how many fans of LOL there are compared to SC2 fans. It all boils down to this for these people. Hey we foreign fans want a Korean scene. Blizzard better do something about it!! Meanwhile in Korea, the numbers show that just not enough Koreans give a damn about it for there to be a Strong, Healthy, Financially viable SC2 scene. End of story. we can agree that sc2 just isnt going to be as popular as bw in korea, ever. every korean (except the ones that someone will inevitably say that they know) agrees that bw is a better game than sc2. on top of that for people outside of korea couldnt catch the game until 4am/1am (lets also agree that paywalling their vods was a bad idea.) unless it was a grand finals at most every tournament match that i watched never passed 2k viewers. that amount is a bad day for a pokemon go streamer. the korean scene in sc2 had too high of expectations and couldnt deliver. i am with you on that, but my problem is shutting out koreans from "World" tournaments. i tell ppl that dont play starcraft about this and they cant understand it and it frustrates them just thinking about it. now imagine how actual pro players feel. at one time being able to travel the world, play ur favorite video game and compete for championships. now they are gridlocked inside an area where too many sharks exist and the pond is waaaay too small. idk about u, but for me that looks like career torture | ||
showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On December 13 2016 10:43 SLimeSC2 wrote: koreans = no viewers foreigners = more viewers If you don't count the fact that basically every WCS tournament involving just foreigners (IE: 2016) had less viewers than the ones that had Foreigners and Koreans then yeah | ||
Kaizor
Singapore908 Posts
On December 13 2016 10:58 SLimeSC2 wrote: we can agree that sc2 just isnt going to be as popular as bw in korea, ever. every korean (except the ones that someone will inevitably say that they know) agrees that bw is a better game than sc2. on top of that for people outside of korea couldnt catch the game until 4am/1am (lets also agree that paywalling their vods was a bad idea.) unless it was a grand finals at most every tournament match that i watched never passed 2k viewers. that amount is a bad day for a pokemon go streamer. the korean scene in sc2 had too high of expectations and couldnt deliver. i am with you on that, but my problem is shutting out koreans from "World" tournaments. i tell ppl that dont play starcraft about this and they cant understand it and it frustrates them just thinking about it. now imagine how actual pro players feel. at one time being able to travel the world, play ur favorite video game and compete for championships. now they are gridlocked inside an area where too many sharks exist and the pond is waaaay too small. idk about u, but for me that looks like career torture My post above was in relation to how people was blaming blizzard for lesser tournaments in Korea. With regards to "walling korean players off", i have given this example time and time again. And i believe Blizzard has roughly the same view. Let me use a real sports as an example. One where sportsmen from a certain country dominate it like Koreans dominate SC2. Table tennis. If you look at the last olympics, out of all 172 representatives from all the countries taking part in the event, 44 were from chinese born in China, and they represented 21 other countries besides China. Why do i want to point this out? Because my country benefited the most from this policy of importing Chinese players. Singapore got its first olympic medal in about 50 years when our table tennis team won bronez at the female team event and female Singles. Guess who were the players? Yup, all chinese from china. When they started this policy of importing chinese players from china, they gave the excuse of it will help improve local player skills by playing and training with them. And back then, there were still some locals in our table tennis teams. That was about 15 years ago. 15 years later?? Every single member on our table tennis team is a chinese from china. There is no local scene to speak of. And i can tell you, majority of my countrymen do not give a shit about their achievements because we know they are just mercenaries paid to win medals for us. And seeing my country's success in winning medals by importing chinese players, other countries follow suit. More and more countries had chinese players playing for them in hope of winning a medal. How ridiculous is it for a chinese player to represent Congo and Qatar in the olympics. You think the majority of the people will feel proud or be interested in such a fake out? There will be no local scene, because just like my country, it is way easier to import a chinese than to invest money in youth, training and development that might not even have results. So what has all this got to do with SC2? Because the casual crowd just wouldn't be attracted to watch foreign tournaments when they know "Hey, this faceless Korean guy who we know nothing about is just going to win. Whats the point in watching?" That is what people will think. I am not talking about people posting in teamliquid that proclaims they just want to watch the highest level of play. Blizzard is looking to grow the scene if possible. And you can't generate more interest when Koreans are winning everything. There have been arguments that Blizzard should be catering to the hardcore dedicated core group of fans that are still around. I am sorry, i just do not agree with that. It just does not make any business sense for them to do that. Big Companies will want to project growth in their projects,they will never say ok let's maintain a stable cliche small group of customers. Especially not Blizzard when they have other stakeholders to answer to for every decision they make. | ||
showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On December 13 2016 14:11 Kaizor wrote: So what has all this got to do with SC2? Because the casual crowd just wouldn't be attracted to watch foreign tournaments when they know "Hey, this faceless Korean guy who we know nothing about is just going to win. Whats the point in watching?" That is what people will think. I am not talking about people posting in teamliquid that proclaims they just want to watch the highest level of play. Again if that was true why was almost EVERY WCS tournament this year with the Korean Ban, where this mythical "Casual viewer who doesn't want to see a "Faceless Korean guys we know nothing about" win" should be coming out in droves down in viewers on the previous year? I'm talking about in what they replaces the WCS leagues and that. In some cases it was 3-1 down. In some cases we had GRAND FINALS down in viewership on a Ro32 stream in the WCS league from the previous year. The "Casual Viewer" defense is as much of a myth as the "WCS 2016 Global Event" at the moment. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36669 Posts
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Wolf
Korea (South)3289 Posts
On December 13 2016 14:37 Seeker wrote: Plexa, you're right. I just read the Korean version and then read inven Global's version. It's mistranslated. And I think they either did it on purpose, or their translators suck. I'm seeing things that Stork never even said... And that whole Blizzard/KeSPA didn't care about SC2 thing that pissed people off? Yup. Mistranslated. P.S. Oh, and also, they REALLY exaggerated things to spice up the interview. I'm pretty sure they did that on purpose so they could get more readers/viewers. I'm under the impression the interview was severely toned down from the original transcript; that's why it seems awkward/forced but still feels "spiced up" so that the editing staff still could maintain that Stork was unhappy so they weren't blatantly lying with their edits. | ||
KOtical
Germany451 Posts
still they could have get ssl some wcs points and see how it works... i mean with overwatch they just had a massive income, so that im sure blizzard themselve would have had the money to support multiple tournaments... but its proofing that blizzard isnt that interessted in sc2 anymore. i kinda feel they should let it die and announce starcraft 3 and try to start over again. | ||
insitelol
845 Posts
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KOtical
Germany451 Posts
On December 13 2016 17:39 insitelol wrote: Blizzard is only responsible for making a game koreans don't want to play. Stop that crap about not supporting the scene. Why don't you blame SKT and KT for ditching Proleague? i can tell you why. the downfall of sc2 is going on for years. with every new installement (Hots and lotv) the game and the scene got worse. new units and concepts had a very bad influence on the scene, for example heart of the swarm new multiplayer units: Mothership Core was really bad designed in the first place. 1 click defense nexus canon... swarm hosts, i dont really need to say something about them i guess... widow mines gave zergs and protoss alot of frustration. oracle and viper had some issues to. so with HotS we had a huge downfall because of bad unit concepts and with this bad balancing. so people waited for the last installement with lotv and were also kinda dissapointed. new economy system makes the game alot faster (good for pros bad for newbs) new units also had design and balancing issues... problem with sc2 is also fights are to fast, in my oppinion either the dmg output of every unit is to high or the hitpoints are to less. air units in general are to strong, but thats just what im thinking... also the splitting up between the foreign and korean tournaments didnt comfort sc2´s scene. ya some foreign pro players are getting some more money now (atleast those who win torunaments) also some more attention. but the sense of competision got toned down here... so far for the game itself but there have been other things blizz didnt care about. for example match fixing scandals in korea, they didnt even address them... cheaters still dont get punished in ladder (maphacks still around). it took them 5 years to implement things the community stated back in the beginning days of WoL. (Visible MMR, Online Tournaments, even some blancing things like siege tank dmg output and so on...) SKT and KT + all other teams who left proleage/kespa arent the ones to blame, if the game is dying and even blizzard doesnt care about it why should companies like SKT and KT do? They have big names on the list and need to pay players properly in order to keep them. but with the downfall of tournaments there is also alot less money to get so it simply isnt paying of for them anymore... dont get me wrong i love sc2 i still think blizzard is one of the greatest gaming companies out there, but still mistakes happened and the reaction to solve those been kinda sloppy or didnt even happen at all. | ||
sixfour
England11060 Posts
On December 13 2016 05:27 Kaizor wrote: And I find it ridiculous that people are blaming blizzard for not supporting the Korean scene enough. What do you expect them to do?? Pay for every single Korean team, coach and player? Pay for all the tournaments and not just the prize pool, even the administrative and logistical costs? Let's say they did all that. Are koreans going to go watch SC2 in the thousands? Is SC2 going to be popular in Korea? Well I don't know about Korean popularity, but I'd love to know what they were thinking in giving such huge top-heavy prize money for Blizzcon. Once first prize hits six figures there is a huge issue of diminished returns. Having Byun/Dark get 100k/50k instead of 200k/100k funds an entire SSL. | ||
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On December 13 2016 14:37 Seeker wrote: Plexa, you're right. I just read the Korean version and then read inven Global's version. It's mistranslated. And I think they either did it on purpose, or their translators suck. I'm seeing things that Stork never even said... And that whole Blizzard/KeSPA didn't care about SC2 thing that pissed people off? Yup. Mistranslated. P.S. Oh, and also, they REALLY exaggerated things to spice up the interview. I'm pretty sure they did that on purpose so they could get more readers/viewers. Can we have a ban on more "korean X said Y" drama that is not proof-read by a Korean speaker (a.k.a. you) first? It really doesn't do any good that we have big active threads of people spouting accusations based on mis-translations. | ||
Penev
28348 Posts
Calm down and be reasonable pls | ||
TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7519 Posts
On December 13 2016 01:47 brickrd wrote: no matter when the game "dies" it's had an incredible run, both the franchise and SC2 itself. lots of games aren't even popular when they're new, and SC2 is still being played competitively 4 years later. that's awesome. 4 years? More like 6 years :D | ||
TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7519 Posts
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insitelol
845 Posts
On December 13 2016 18:33 KOtical wrote: i can tell you why. the downfall of sc2 is going on for years. with every new installement (Hots and lotv) the game and the scene got worse. new units and concepts had a very bad influence on the scene, for example heart of the swarm new multiplayer units: Mothership Core was really bad designed in the first place. 1 click defense nexus canon... swarm hosts, i dont really need to say something about them i guess... widow mines gave zergs and protoss alot of frustration. oracle and viper had some issues to. so with HotS we had a huge downfall because of bad unit concepts and with this bad balancing. so people waited for the last installement with lotv and were also kinda dissapointed. new economy system makes the game alot faster (good for pros bad for newbs) new units also had design and balancing issues... problem with sc2 is also fights are to fast, in my oppinion either the dmg output of every unit is to high or the hitpoints are to less. air units in general are to strong, but thats just what im thinking... also the splitting up between the foreign and korean tournaments didnt comfort sc2´s scene. ya some foreign pro players are getting some more money now (atleast those who win torunaments) also some more attention. but the sense of competision got toned down here... so far for the game itself but there have been other things blizz didnt care about. for example match fixing scandals in korea, they didnt even address them... cheaters still dont get punished in ladder (maphacks still around). it took them 5 years to implement things the community stated back in the beginning days of WoL. (Visible MMR, Online Tournaments, even some blancing things like siege tank dmg output and so on...) SKT and KT + all other teams who left proleage/kespa arent the ones to blame, if the game is dying and even blizzard doesnt care about it why should companies like SKT and KT do? They have big names on the list and need to pay players properly in order to keep them. but with the downfall of tournaments there is also alot less money to get so it simply isnt paying of for them anymore... dont get me wrong i love sc2 i still think blizzard is one of the greatest gaming companies out there, but still mistakes happened and the reaction to solve those been kinda sloppy or didnt even happen at all. And my original post just pretty much summs up everything you said. Blizzard made a game they don't want to play. And blizzard tried really hard to force it down the throats. You can't say they didnt try. Yes, mistakes accured in the process. Splitting the scene was arguable for instance. But overall, they DID CARE and DID TRY. The amount of money spent on korea market was insane. We don't have the statistics but anyone could guess: prize pools, advertising, organization etc etc. W/o blizzard support i doubt we could witness multiple GSLs/SSLs/SPL. All you point out as mistakes/drawbacks could and should be mentioned. But these things alone could not change the course of flow. SC2 in korea got much more funding/organizing/infrustructure it ACTUALLY needed. It was ARTIFICIAL. And everything that's artificial eventually comes to an end. It happened. And blizzard is the last to blame. Aside from making a game that doesnt suit koreans. If it makes sense. | ||
Kaizor
Singapore908 Posts
On December 13 2016 14:37 Seeker wrote: Plexa, you're right. I just read the Korean version and then read inven Global's version. It's mistranslated. And I think they either did it on purpose, or their translators suck. I'm seeing things that Stork never even said... And that whole Blizzard/KeSPA didn't care about SC2 thing that pissed people off? Yup. Mistranslated. P.S. Oh, and also, they REALLY exaggerated things to spice up the interview. I'm pretty sure they did that on purpose so they could get more readers/viewers. So did the line i mention was there in the chinese translation exist in the original korean article? Would very much like to know whether chinese translations are purposely spiced up as well. | ||
Kaizor
Singapore908 Posts
On December 13 2016 14:29 showstealer1829 wrote: Again if that was true why was almost EVERY WCS tournament this year with the Korean Ban, where this mythical "Casual viewer who doesn't want to see a "Faceless Korean guys we know nothing about" win" should be coming out in droves down in viewers on the previous year? I'm talking about in what they replaces the WCS leagues and that. In some cases it was 3-1 down. In some cases we had GRAND FINALS down in viewership on a Ro32 stream in the WCS league from the previous year. The "Casual Viewer" defense is as much of a myth as the "WCS 2016 Global Event" at the moment. I would very much like to see actual numbers. I am not doubting you, but i am a rather numbers person, because anyone can come up with any ratio on the internet. Facts need to be backed up. And true, numbers might back you up, but it wasn't the only point in my arguments. I strongly believe the demise of any local scene if any korean can just go there and win the tournament and go home. It does nothing to develop the local scene and a few koreans winning tournaments will still not save the korean scene. Furthermore, i am of the view that the interest and viewership would be far lower if koreans had been winning everything. Yes far lower than the decrease you say. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36669 Posts
On December 14 2016 00:19 Kaizor wrote: So did the line i mention was there in the chinese translation exist in the original korean article? Would very much like to know whether chinese translations are purposely spiced up as well. I can say with certainty that the Chinese translated version is more accurate than inven Global's version. The Chinese one and the original one both have that line about it all coming back to the players. Like you pointed out, inven Global does not. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
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Lightrush
Bulgaria164 Posts
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Musicus
Germany23567 Posts
Seems reasnable tbh. Anway, hearing that SpoTV wanted to do SSL but now they won't since Blizzard would not give them WCS points is sad. I know for the story that Blizzard want to tell they can't have too many tournaments, since evry tournament gives a direct seed to BlizzCon now, but I'd very much like it if no tournament would give direct seeds and instead we had more tournaments that all provide WCS points. | ||
Olli
Austria24413 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36669 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada15564 Posts
of course these single-line catch-phrase headlines are great as "evidence" for the chicken littles who want to shout out that the sky is falling. On December 13 2016 15:29 Wolf wrote: I'm under the impression the interview was severely toned down from the original transcript; that's why it seems awkward/forced but still feels "spiced up" so that the editing staff still could maintain that Stork was unhappy so they weren't blatantly lying with their edits. thanks for the insight. On December 14 2016 01:38 Seeker wrote: If RallyJaffa releases Stork's original recorded interview for me to listen to, then I'll be convinced. so you are not from "where dat snitch at" after all? you're from Missouri. it'll be interesting to see if the recorded interview is made available or if there are reasons it is "confidential". please don't ban me for these bad jokes. | ||
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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notgayDragon
142 Posts
EDIT2: To expand on the sugar coating claim, both teams work off a single transcript as stated in the tweet and are not related in any fashion. Looking over the Korean article and having my middle man read back the English article, local Inven made things sound much less sour. EDIT: Congratulations Seeker, you now managed to make Inven hate Team Liquid. https://twitter.com/RallyJaffa/status/808699760219602944 | ||
geokilla
Canada8162 Posts
On December 13 2016 14:37 Seeker wrote: Plexa, you're right. I just read the Korean version and then read inven Global's version. It's mistranslated. And I think they either did it on purpose, or their translators suck. I'm seeing things that Stork never even said... And that whole Blizzard/KeSPA didn't care about SC2 thing that pissed people off? Yup. Mistranslated. P.S. Oh, and also, they REALLY exaggerated things to spice up the interview. I'm pretty sure they did that on purpose so they could get more readers/viewers. I updated the OP with your post. Hope you don't mind. On December 14 2016 02:36 notgayDragon wrote: I had a middle man ask Stork for me because my Korean doesn't extend that far, he said Seeker is lying and that the Korean interview was sugar coated to keep the army of SC2 fans from starting some kind of nuclear war. EDIT2: To expand on the sugar coating claim, both teams work off a single transcript as stated in the tweet and are not related in any fashion. Looking over the Korean article and having my middle man read back the English article, local Inven made things sound much less sour. EDIT: Congratulations Seeker, you now managed to make Inven hate Team Liquid. https://twitter.com/RallyJaffa/status/808699760219602944 So should I remove the update I just made to the OP then? | ||
notgayDragon
142 Posts
On December 14 2016 02:41 geokilla wrote: I updated the OP with your post. Hope you don't mind. Because someone who works for Inven is wrong and a forum hero who has shown no history of fluent Korean is correct... Seeker I love you man and you busted me out of that fight with a corrupt moderator but come on, please don't do this. You may as well lock the thread as this will not stop knowing most SC2 and BW posters. | ||
Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 13 2016 14:37 Seeker wrote: Plexa, you're right. I just read the Korean version and then read inven Global's version. It's mistranslated. And I think they either did it on purpose, or their translators suck. I'm seeing things that Stork never even said... And that whole Blizzard/KeSPA didn't care about SC2 thing that pissed people off? Yup. Mistranslated. P.S. Oh, and also, they REALLY exaggerated things to spice up the interview. I'm pretty sure they did that on purpose so they could get more readers/viewers. Be specific with which parts were mistranslated, and go in detail with specific sentences both in English, and Korean version of the interview. You're representing Team Liquid, a site that was a bastion for Brood War for non-Korean speakers, and your words are heavily influencing those who are interested in the words Stork had to say. The post you made is already spreading via Twitter, and as a staff member of this site, the main account of the site is vouching for the accuracy of your own interpretation of this issue. Point out the sentence that was wrongly translated, and give your own versions of what should have been translated in place of the phrases of contention. Then the readers can decide for themselves. I can judge for myself, but don't blurt out your own opinions without being specific on a site that has the vast majority of the readers relying on your words. The end came about in a meeting between all Proleague coaches and people from Blizzard. We all went into that room with desperation, determination, to keep Proleague alive. But everyone save us were ready to let go. They were also surprisingly uninformed on the match-fixing scandal. We thought the meeting was to come up with solutions to prevent future match fixing. To come up with action plans to overcome and recover from this huge blow. Perhaps it was all in my head, but the feeling was not mutual. Both KeSPA and Blizzard were looking at alternatives to SC2, not ways it could be revived. In their grand scheme of things, SC2 wasn't the only game out there and didn't need to be. I was disheartened, heartbroken, but I could understand their position. In retrospect, I think KeSPA did their best. Considering this is the part that mentions Blixxard the most, I'd venture this part was the spiciest part of the interview. I'll just translate the Korean article verbatim to the best of my abilities to clear out any confusions: One example was the meeting between Blizzard and the teams. Of course the overall mood was dim due to the subject being the dissolution of the teams and the ProLeague. However, it looked like everyone apart from those who worked with the teams were not thinking about coming up with other options, or coming up with solutions, but rather ending it all, on top of that I was surprised how little they knew about the match-fixing issues. Me and the coaches, were trying our best to survive in this dire situation, but I thought to myself "they are not like that". This could just be my own thoughts. However, after some time, and gaining some perspective, I understand their position. Neithe KeSPA or Blizzard were relying solely on Starcraft 2, nor did they need to do so. Ultimately, the players were the ones with the problem. And if you think about it, KeSPA did try their best. However, even if I understood their position, I was someone who was working in the Starcraft 2 scene, and was disappointed. And it was even more saddening when I thought about my fellow players. You can have your own personal views on the intentions of the translators, however, be specific and accurate with criticism when you're coming up with such accusations, otherwise it looks like you are asserting your own personal agendas too. Really, the site needs to be held to higher standards in a delicate topic such as this. This is a person that made his legacy in Brood War. It affects both communities. If you don't want certain words to be put in his mouth, don't go making the same mistake by being vague and putting ideas into people's heads. | ||
supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
Perhaps the word 'mistranslation' should be used carefully. | ||
lestye
United States4104 Posts
On December 14 2016 02:36 notgayDragon wrote: I had a middle man ask Stork for me because my Korean doesn't extend that far, he said Seeker is lying and that the Korean interview was sugar coated to keep the army of SC2 fans from starting some kind of nuclear war. EDIT2: To expand on the sugar coating claim, both teams work off a single transcript as stated in the tweet and are not related in any fashion. Looking over the Korean article and having my middle man read back the English article, local Inven made things sound much less sour. EDIT: Congratulations Seeker, you now managed to make Inven hate Team Liquid. https://twitter.com/RallyJaffa/status/808699760219602944 Lying is a strong word. It's clear to him that there is a contradiction to say at least. Also what you said makes 0 sense, why would they sugar coat the Korean version of all versions if they're worried about "rabid SC2 fans"? Also what he said isn't without precedence, Inven was caught in a scandal this week for mistranslating Faker's words. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36669 Posts
On December 14 2016 02:43 notgayDragon wrote: Because someone who works for Inven is wrong and a forum hero who has shown no history of fluent Korean is correct... Seeker I love you man and you busted me out of that fight with a corrupt moderator but come on, please don't do this. You may as well lock the thread as this will not stop knowing most SC2 and BW posters. I'm sorry. Forum hero? No proof of fluency? Where is this coming from? | ||
Kaizor
Singapore908 Posts
On December 14 2016 02:36 notgayDragon wrote: I had a middle man ask Stork for me because my Korean doesn't extend that far, he said Seeker is lying and that the Korean interview was sugar coated to keep the army of SC2 fans from starting some kind of nuclear war. EDIT2: To expand on the sugar coating claim, both teams work off a single transcript as stated in the tweet and are not related in any fashion. Looking over the Korean article and having my middle man read back the English article, local Inven made things sound much less sour. EDIT: Congratulations Seeker, you now managed to make Inven hate Team Liquid. https://twitter.com/RallyJaffa/status/808699760219602944 Sorry man, claiming to know a middle man who just so happen to know Stork and can speak for him, just isn't good enough. I don't know about Stork's english level but presumably the interview would have been conducted in Korean. So the Korean Article should have been the most accurate. So unless Stork comes out himself to say the Korean Article was sugar-coating, i will reserve judgement. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On December 14 2016 03:43 Seeker wrote: My statement was made with only what I was given. There's an inven Global EN version, and a inven Korean version out for the public to see. The inven Global version one did not accurately match the Korean version. So I said what I said. Now that inven is explaining that inven Global translated from a recording of Stork's interview and the inven Korean interview was a toned down, edited one, I will retract my statement. But initally, I could only work with what I was given. I'm sorry. Forum hero? No proof of fluency? Where is this coming from? This wouldn't be a problem if you stopped at pointing out the fact that both versions of the interview had parts that did not match. However you were especially specific with this part of the interview, where you said the following: "And that whole Blizzard/KeSPA didn't care about SC2 thing that pissed people off? Yup. Mistranslated." Then you went on to say the following: "I'm pretty sure they did that on purpose so they could get more readers/viewers." You took out a specific part of the interview, said it was mistranslated, and then added your own thoughts into the intentions of others without even pointing out which of phrases of the interview were REALLY exaggerated to "spice up the interview". I would say this is an misuse of your trust within this community. Don't say things without backing it up with evidence, especially if you're going to point fingers. | ||
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36669 Posts
On December 14 2016 03:55 Letmelose wrote: This wouldn't be a problem if you stopped at pointing out the fact that both versions of the interview had parts that did not match. However you were especially specific with this part of the interview, where you said the following: "And that whole Blizzard/KeSPA didn't care about SC2 thing that pissed people off? Yup. Mistranslated." Then you went on to say the following: "I'm pretty sure they did that on purpose so they could get more readers/viewers." You took out a specific part of the interview, said it was mistranslated, and then added your own thoughts into the intentions of others without even pointing out which of phrases of the interview were REALLY exaggerated to "spice up the interview". I would say this is an misuse of your trust within this community. Don't say things without backing it up with evidence, especially if you're going to point fingers. I already retracted my statement. I don't want anymore drama because of this. | ||
opisska
Poland8852 Posts
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Makro
France16890 Posts
On December 14 2016 02:54 Ansibled wrote: I don't think this will go anywhere unless Inven released the original interview. we need the expert aka saint snorlax point of view on this issue | ||
notgayDragon
142 Posts
Don't burn me at the stake if something on my end is wrong, I'm a full time college student with an eight hour job at the Waffle House getting six hours of sleep a day to make ends meet, my Korean is not perfect by any means. | ||
Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On December 14 2016 00:50 Seeker wrote: I can say with certainty that the Chinese translated version is more accurate than inven Global's version. The Chinese one and the original one both have that line about it all coming back to the players. Like you pointed out, inven Global does not. Like I said I don't think there will be an adequate resolution unless the original interview is released, so I guess everyone should just move on. | ||
geokilla
Canada8162 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On December 14 2016 05:31 geokilla wrote: Someone tell me what I should do to the OP.... I'm so confused at this silly bickering. It doesn't have anything to do with the original post really. | ||
Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
Lets calm down and see what's coming up. | ||
Lexender
Mexico2611 Posts
On December 14 2016 02:43 notgayDragon wrote: Because someone who works for Inven is wrong and a forum hero who has shown no history of fluent Korean is correct... Seeker I love you man and you busted me out of that fight with a corrupt moderator but come on, please don't do this. You may as well lock the thread as this will not stop knowing most SC2 and BW posters. So you a random person who nobody knows and claims to have someone who knows stork have talked to him but have no prove whatsoever is right but Seeker a long time TL staff member and translator who has translated countles interviews is just a random forum hero. I hope you see the irony in this as much as I do. | ||
lestye
United States4104 Posts
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Kaizor
Singapore908 Posts
On December 14 2016 01:22 Olli wrote: It's not like Inven Global get away without scolding if they turned the same transcript into a more clickbaity version, leaving out important context that severely weakens the "Blizzard hate SC2" sentiment. Exactly, yes it might not be any mis-translation but they are definitely leaving out things that were in the korean article. And unless Stork himself comes out to claim that the korean article was toned down, Inven Global seemed to be guilty of editing the interview's context. Yes, from Stork himself, not from some middleman. | ||
SLimeSC2
20 Posts
On December 14 2016 09:36 lestye wrote: ITT: Someone who joined TL in November 2016 is going to cast doubt about other people's history. bro- my post history is longer than urs. so much bigger. wanna measure??? User was temp banned for this post. | ||
TheHumanLife
138 Posts
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digmouse
China6283 Posts
On December 14 2016 09:59 Kaizor wrote: Exactly, yes it might not be any mis-translation but they are definitely leaving out things that were in the korean article. And unless Stork himself comes out himself to claim that the korean article was toned down, Inven Global seemed to be guilty of editing the interview's context. Yes, from Stork himself, not from some middleman. I'm on it. | ||
xtorn
4060 Posts
However, we at SPOTV Games have been working out a solution to work on an alternative to this situation, and hope that you will all join us once we figure out a plan. long live SPOTV | ||
Incognoto
France10234 Posts
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Penev
28348 Posts
On December 14 2016 05:31 geokilla wrote: Someone tell me what I should do to the OP.... I'm so confused at this silly bickering. at least remove the sarcastic comment, that's not helping for sure | ||
Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On December 14 2016 05:31 geokilla wrote: Someone tell me what I should do to the OP.... I'm so confused at this silly bickering. Change title, cause there was many reasons for no SSL, but it's absence form the WCS 2017 point system as announced last week is not one of them, it's a consequence, not a cause. Then remove that sarcastic line which just sounds dumb. | ||
DuckloadBlackra
225 Posts
On December 14 2016 13:01 TheHumanLife wrote: Blizzard obviously recognizes that Korean players are still much better than foreigners even after Kespa teams were disbanded. Otherwise, there is no other reason to make another region lock in 2017... this is ridiculous. they are afraid that Koreans will take most of money from foreign events... This is the biggest problem I have with what Blizzard is doing. They didn't learn from their mistake with the region lock this year? That shocks me I thought it would be repealed immediately for 2017. | ||
geokilla
Canada8162 Posts
On December 14 2016 21:00 Gwavajuice wrote: Change title, cause there was many reasons for no SSL, but it's absence form the WCS 2017 point system as announced last week is not one of them, it's a consequence, not a cause. Then remove that sarcastic line which just sounds dumb. I think only mods can update the title. | ||
Ppjack
Belgium489 Posts
Seems totally bullshit, and i don't think i live in a world where a company cannot even communicate with blizzard and just sit there and wait to know what is the next step. this is the most wtf statement i read in a long time | ||
p68
100 Posts
On December 15 2016 01:54 DuckloadBlackra wrote: This is the biggest problem I have with what Blizzard is doing. They didn't learn from their mistake with the region lock this year? That shocks me I thought it would be repealed immediately for 2017. What were they supposed to learn, exactly? Kespa prevented their players from streaming and participating in foreign events, and Korean viewership of SC2 has always been low. The latter is the bottom line. The team leagues lost sponsorship because the audience was too small, period. Korean companies advertise to Koreans. Blizzard did the region lock for 2016...yet the game was declining long before that occurred. People talk like Blizzard's responsible for keeping the Korean scene going when Koreans generally aren't that interested in the game. I think it's difficult for Starcraft's small, dedicated, hardcore fanbase to admit that skill-alone isn't enough to increase viewership. The human element is just as important, if not more so than anything else. If skill-alone were sufficient, GSL wouldn't have struggled to get by, and SSL wouldn't have lost sponsors. Hell, TotalBiscuit had 10k+ viewers the other day just watching him suck at SC2. | ||
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