Can we please use the players' screens as the primary view in tournament streams? I don't care about what the observer thinks is interesting--I want to see the players' play. I want to directly see the players' camera and mouse movements.
There's incredible speed and micro that you can see when a pro streams his play. You can directly see his actions in the FPV that shows his screen and mouse.
It is significantly harder to appreciation the difficulty of what a player is doing (the incredible speed/skill of it), when producers don't let us see the player screen, and we can't see the actions he is taking. Instead we merely follow a handful of the consequences of those actions, dependent on the observer's focus. But who could be a better observer than the actual players themselves?
We get little click indicators and selection indicators in observer view, but they are hard to see, and we don't see the cursor/mouse movement nor the screen movement. If we don't get a view of the players' mouse and camera. We need to emphasize the player actions (what they look at, what they click), otherwise you don't get to see all the effort that goes into the buildup and the control of that climactic battle.
Imagine you're watching soccer or basketball or football. What if the camera was zoomed in on where the ball is all the time, so that you can't see the players positioning themselves around it, the actual footwork and movement that sets up the point. It would be much less fulfilling, and it's similar to what is happening today in starcraft.
If you watch the counterstrike streams, the commentators/observers can switch from player view to player view, but you get to see what each player is doing, mechanically.
At least broadcast the two individual players FPV on separate streams, or produce a view that switches between showing both FPVs simultaneously and showing either individual FPV.
Also, while I'm at it, this thing where we place the resource/supply counters at the bottom-center, instead of the top-right is disorienting, and harder to follow. What benefit does it provide? Are the pixels at the top worth more, bc the image is more zoomed out there?? No! You put the action in the center anyway.
Poll: How would you like to view a pro starcaft match
I want 1 stream that stays fixed on the observers view, w/ rare moments of FPV(replay, hidden mouse) (95)
68%
I want 1 stream that alternates between (a) both FPV, side by side (b) either FPV (c) observer view (23)
17%
I want 2 streams, one for each player, with each FPV (not replay, I want to see that mouse cursor!) (21)
15%
139 total votes
Your vote: How would you like to view a pro starcaft match
(Vote): I want 2 streams, one for each player, with each FPV (not replay, I want to see that mouse cursor!) (Vote): I want 1 stream that alternates between (a) both FPV, side by side (b) either FPV (c) observer view (Vote): I want 1 stream that stays fixed on the observers view, w/ rare moments of FPV(replay, hidden mouse)
I thought about this topic before actually. I disagree with you that it should be the common pov, but imo tournaments should use first person pov a whole lot more than they do now (which is basically close to zero) Imo the best use of it would be during points of action like harassment or big army engagements. A lot of people still have the notion that these guys just a move their armies, well observign what they are actually doing there would maybe change a few opinions
Showing both povs side by side is also imo an interesting option, there are problems with sound though. How that would look like:
(not sure if something like this is out there for sc2 which is why i used the bw one here, good enough to get the idea )
I guess if done well the option with one stream alternating between different views might be the most interesting actually.
The fov is analogous to the zoomed in on the ball view, the observer view allows you to see how the players are interacting mechanically and intellectually while the first person view only lets you see the actions of one player and even then, do you really notice everything they're building and why they're doing what they are? If we only see what they see we have to know what they know to appreciate why they're doing what they're doing if we even notice it.
I much prefer observer view for tournament games and i can get my fix of fpv through streams
Kind of off topic, when I was at Gfinity Spring Masters 2015 they had a few screens at the front row showing POVs. Probably my favourite part of the tournament (was only there a day).
I agree with what you're saying and it's one of the reasons I created my Youtube channel. Not to discredit observers, because observing a match must be a difficult thing to do, but it really glosses over the actions that players make during a game and make it look/seem easier than it actually is; at least that is how I felt a few years back. Even the boring parts (like WoL or HotS), where you had to build up a worker count before doing your chosen build or even setting up camera locations. Seeing it done over and over by the same player(s) on the same map(s) really hits home the amount of effort and practice players do to get their builds crisp, sharpen their map knowledge and execute superb unit positioning.
I thought about this topic before actually. I disagree with you that it should be the common pov, but imo tournaments should use first person pov a whole lot more than they do now (which is basically close to zero) Imo the best use of it would be during points of action like harassment or big army engagements. A lot of people still have the notion that these guys just a move their armies, well observign what they are actually doing there would maybe change a few opinions
Showing both povs side by side is also imo an interesting option, there are problems with sound though. How that would look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxbP0un4vCg& (not sure if something like this is out there for sc2 which is why i used the bw one here, good enough to get the idea )
I guess if done well the option with one stream alternating between different views might be the most interesting actually.
I don't think it would be good as the main way of watching games but indeed having the option to see PoV during big fights and stuff would be awesome, either with another stream or when nothing is happening after the fight?
I support this, at least partially, it was so epic to see Byun's micro during blizzcon and it made the match more intense. It should be often showcased, I think that observers are skilled enough to know when a FPV will be interesting !
On January 23 2017 09:27 Cosmos wrote: I support this, at least partially, it was so epic to see Byun's micro during blizzcon and it made the match more intense. It should be often showcased, I think that observers are skilled enough to know when a FPV will be interesting !
Or even better a stream with player 1 FPV, a stream with player 2 FPV and a stream with obs Point of View with commentary (of course with the ability to mute casters without muting game sounds!!!!!!) - all of this should be technologically possible in 2017 :D
I really disagree, as cool as it is occasionally, usually when I watch games I would rather have a wider understanding of the action and what is going on.
Starcraft was deliberately designed to force players to divide their attention between what's going on in the game, and the housekeeping tasks necessary to keep building stuff.
First person view is nice on occasion, but I'd much rather the camera stayed on the engagement than jumped back for another inject cycle.
IMHO, the problem with FPV is constant camera jumps. Pro players has 250...400 apm at different stages of the game. At the beginning they spam to get warm up, so they are constantly jumping between main / natural / future third base. It's pretty hard to watch and stayed focused for the regular viewer.
With FPV it's very easy to miss some epic events like bane mines, widow mines, flanks, run by, etc.
Of course, 3 streams is good, but some tournaments don't have enough resources for 3 big screens.
I fully support more alternate streams with FPVs (would be awesome) or occasionally switching to FPV in certain moments of the game, but having FPV as the primary/possibly ONLY stream for a tourney? No way.
a) the reasons everyone has given so far
b) you'll make casuals/new people run away fast if it's only FPV
c) would make it very hard to commentate. Say a caster is trying to make a point about a certain terrain element or a building placement or whatever it is. The observer knows this and stays on the spot the caster is talking about until he's finished his point. With FPV the caster might start making a point but then the player immediately stops looking at that area. You could definitely still commentate the game, but it would be harder.
FPV could be interesting when they show a re-play of some certain situation (like two simultaneous drops), but surely not as a primary view for the audience. As was already said - it would distract new players/watchers. Just try to get some friend that is not familiar with SC and show him a video of BlizzCon finals game and then some regular ByuN stream. He would definitely rather enjoy that BlizzCon game, because he can see the whole map, what is going on at both sides, wouldn't miss some important moments (bane mines, drops, whatever). On the other hand watching 400 APM Korean FPV must be pain for someone, who doesn't understand the game enough (e.g. cycling through screens as was said above...). And even if you have an experienced watcher, it's still better to see the whole map, because from one player's FPV you could miss many important moments. Also we don't need to see player's FPV to acknowledge the amount of skill that is needed for high level play - we already knew that by watching tons of streams and from our own poor ladder play.
I like watching FPV too, but i think only watching that would be bad. I think Blizzcon had a stage setup, where they projected the observer on the middle, but also projected 2 FPV streams on the sides on the stage. That seems nice. If i do want to watch FPV then i want to follow my players stream as long as i want during the entire match. There was also a BW youtube vod, where the observer's view was put on the left as big, and the 2 FPV streams were put on the right above each other. That was actually really nice to see. Maybe there should be an option for something like that for every major tourney, kind of like an alternative stream with FPV added for both sides.
And ofc adding in FPV into the normal stream can be super cool too, but thats usually done only to make some people look cool for a bit during an engagement. I don't think most people would appreciate the constant switching around for the entire match. (And i think MOBAs and FPS doesn't really have that much switching around. Tbh in CS streams i would get super confused without the minimap a lot of the times as it is.)
Showing their pov all the time would probably be a bad idea, but right now tournaments also don't ever switch tbh. There are lots of moments in every game where you could show both povs side by side or decide to show one. As i said before, i think bigger engagements are a perfect example of this. You will see the outcome of the engagement either way because both players will focus their attention there and at the same time you see the mechanical skill required to take it. Seems good to me
Speaking from my heart though I'd rather see the observer view because that lets me know what's going on a lot better. Depending on peoples' hands, it also might be hard to keep up with what's happening for someone a bit slower, like me.