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Hello,
This post is for the discussion regarding cheating at offline events and the use of cellphones (and why I argue it should not be allowed). Earlier today a ro16 game between Namshar vs Utherhmal was being played at the WCS Jönköping tournament.
During the time between game 2 and 3 you can clearly see how Namshar is wearing his cellphone in his pocket and it clearly is turned on: http://imgur.com/a/p0POY (I am in no way claiming that Namshar is cheating, it's just an example)
Why is this a problem? As most of you are aware, cellphones have a vibrate function. This vibrate function can be utilized for potential cheating in terms of warnings and other types of information to the player wearing the cellphone. A simple example can be something along the lines of 1 person spectating the game and using different combinations of "vibrations" to notify information. For example: Phone vibrates 1 time: Opponent spawn in top left. Phone vibrates 2 times: Opponent spawn in top right. Phone vibrates 3 times: Opponent spawn in bottom left. This can ofcourse be expanded so it includes different types of warning of build orders (cheese/greedy play).
There's obviously a financial interest in a competition like this and history has shown us that any edge a person may gain, including breaking the rulebook, will probably be used by someone at somepoint. If it's not regulated to use a cellphone, the risk of getting caught for something like this is very small while the reward can be very high (for instance, imagine Naniwa getting information about where Flash spawned when he 11/11 raxed him at a MLG years ago). Thus the reward severely outweighs the risk a player takes by abusing this.
Dreamhack already have been collecting players cellphones during ther CSGO tournaments (https://twitter.com/HLTVorg/status/537919782943993857) and the only reason I believe Dreamhack doesnt use this in Starcraft 2 is logistics and cost management,(one of dreamhacks strengths regarding managing esports event over the years has actually been managing costs very smartly, but that's a different story). Having someone collect phones would obviously require some kind of person/labour doing it and as most people know running Starcraft 2 events is not exactly a cash cow at this point. With that said Blizzard is probably the ones covering alot of the costs if not all of them for their WCS events. Working toward esports being cheat free should atleast be in their interest to say the least.
I would like to hear your opinions regarding this and maybe even someone at Dreamhack would care to respond.
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Impossible to stop this unless they strip-search every player.
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On June 19 2017 05:19 Psychobabas wrote: Impossible to stop this unless they strip-search every player.
Which in my opinion should not be a impossibility to do, for example in fighting sports you check the gloves and in sprinting you even measure the length of the spikes on the shoes.
Edit: With "strip-search" I obviously didn't mean the need of taking clothes off.
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Holy you're right! They need to not allow players keep electronics on them. No need to strip search, just have them empty their pockets when they play. Similar to when you go clubbing.
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Probably most progamer never thought about this, you might just gave them a great idea
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On June 19 2017 05:47 Aegwynn wrote:Probably most progamer never thought about this, you might just gave them a great idea pretty sure I saw a thread like this already a while ago.
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Handing over phones in high level csgo events have been common practice for maybe the last 2 years because of this possibility. No pro has ever been caught or suspected but it's an easy safeguard.
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On June 19 2017 05:19 Psychobabas wrote: Impossible to stop this unless they strip-search every player.
Boxers and UFC fighters are examined for the presence of foreign objects before entering the ring/cage for every fight.
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Here's the thing though, if you have to give your phone to staff for the duration of the match, how are you gonna go to the LR threads mid-series for strategic advice?
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i think the biggest thing is that if you're still in the starcraft competitive scene at this point, you're probably not primarily doing it for the money but for the love of the competition/game
when you spend years playing this game, it feels pretty shitty to cheapen your victories. i remember a specific incident where my girlfriend at the time messaged me (not telling me what my opponent was doing) freaking out because my opponent was proxying me. i kinda guessed that they were so i sort of threw the game on purpose because i didn't want to win with that advantage. this was iem ny qualifier 2011 vs qxc (or maybe some other terran?, maybe on shattered temple?)
a lot of players also stream ladder games even during ladder qualifiers, or open tournaments, or even more important qualifiers. at this point most progamers have accepted that if you're still in the scene at this point you're probably not trying to cheat others out of money (except for maybe some small exceptions like guru) and that you can trust people for the most part
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On June 19 2017 06:19 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 05:19 Psychobabas wrote: Impossible to stop this unless they strip-search every player.
Boxers and UFC fighters are examined for the presence of foreign objects before entering the ring/cage for every fight.
So they gonna check if someone has something hidden in his underwear or strapped to his inner thigh in a sc2 tour...?
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Theyre already wearing earpieces.. Would be much simpler for them to just get information talked out by somebody in the audience.
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Are you sure you ain't just being paranoid?
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i dont really think its feasible to be getting much info from vibrations when playing a game like sc2 at 300+ apm and if theyre getting vibrations about something like spawn locations i hate to say it but who cares? i doubt its even happening and if it is you still have to play 10-15 minutes of facemelting starcraft to win these tournaments. i cant imagine this making much of a difference compared to skill and tactics
i mean maybe if you had receipts of someone actually being caught doing something shady with their phone this would seem like something that matters, but i dunno dude you're just kind of inventing a problem
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Norway839 Posts
Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened.
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On June 19 2017 06:23 Elentos wrote: Here's the thing though, if you have to give your phone to staff for the duration of the match, how are you gonna go to the LR threads mid-series for strategic advice?
Using the computer?
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On June 19 2017 06:44 Liquid`Snute wrote: Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened. pretty sure the korean pros would have also said that before the recent scandals..
but as Brickrd said, it's probably just not worth it considering the small gain you can get through it
edit : found the original thread where this was discussed http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/261142-question-concern-about-cheating
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Well, technically it is possible to cheat using phones but with the game like SC2 with so much concentration and multitasking, you barely notice anything except the game itself.
Players at this top level with many years of experiences have a lot of pride and integrity. It is hard to imagine them throwing it all away just for some quick bucks.
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On June 19 2017 06:23 Elentos wrote: Here's the thing though, if you have to give your phone to staff for the duration of the match, how are you gonna go to the LR threads mid-series for strategic advice?
Well, when I was an admin ad DH Stockholm there were some heavy DDOSing. During the pause of the games, a player actually tabbed out and went straight into the TL-Tourney threads. The player also admitted when I asked him about it...
So it is funny cause it is true xD
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On June 19 2017 06:44 Liquid`Snute wrote: Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened. Snute just talking some logic.... OR IS HE COVERING HIS TRACKS?!?!?! :O:O
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I always thought players were supposed to turn off their phones, we had this discussion years ago I think.
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The players should be naked or wearing a uber tight spandex outfit so we will be sure they arent wearing any electronics. But we cant be sure, maybe its in their bum. Who is going to volunteer?
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On June 19 2017 07:08 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 06:44 Liquid`Snute wrote: Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened. Snute just talking some logic.... OR IS HE COVERING HIS TRACKS?!?!?! :O:O most adults are liars. which is why all forms of competition have all kinds of cheat-reducing methods put in place.
" if you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin' "
On June 19 2017 07:21 PinoKotsBeer wrote: The players should be naked or wearing a uber tight spandex outfit so we will be sure they arent wearing any electronics. But we cant be sure, maybe its in their bum. Who is going to volunteer? no just go through the same process UFC fighters and boxers go through before entering the ring/cage. its a long ago solved problem.
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On June 19 2017 06:44 Liquid`Snute wrote: Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened.
Why can't you just have your phone taken away during the match, and then the admin returns it to you after the match? You're not affecting a player's "quality of life" at the tournament during their matches.
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I vaguely remember Kespa officials scanning players for metal objects before they can enter the booth during SC BW Proleague matches
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They could have a remote controlled vibrator up their butt. Strip search followed by cavity examination is the only way to be sure.
Or maybe we are just being a little stupid here.
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On June 19 2017 08:43 DeadByDawn wrote: They could have a remote controlled vibrator up their butt. Strip search followed by cavity examination is the only way to be sure.
Or maybe we are just being a little stupid here. If someone is willing to go that far to get an advantage they deserve to win.
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On June 19 2017 07:17 Musicus wrote: I always thought players were supposed to turn off their phones, we had this discussion years ago I think.
It's something that frequently happens, though apparently isn't a full requirement. I saw a couple of other people with their phones on, as well.
I think Snute makes a good point though - It isn't really that big a deal.
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France12466 Posts
On June 19 2017 05:47 Aegwynn wrote:Probably most progamer never thought about this, you might just gave them a great idea ? Pretty sure a lot of them actually did, probably the ones that don't win much by themselves since the ROI is better, but maybe actual good ones as well!
Simple solution: don't allow cellphones when playing. edit: being good != being morally sound, see Life. I think Snute is a little bit too optimistic, if top players knew ways to do it while minimizing risks, some of them would probably do it for personal reasons. So I guess it could be an issue if the game grows financially, which could happen depending on Google DeepMind advancements (they need impressive opponents to feed their AI for the public to be interested, they can't let sc2 die if they are serious on what they are trying to achieve).
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On June 19 2017 06:44 Liquid`Snute wrote: Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened.
I'm certain that Snute as well as the vast majority (if not all) of the players have this level of moral integrity. But for eSports event organizers, it is their duty to minimize the possibility for anyone to cheat.
And to those saying this cannot be done without strip searching, you're vastly exaggerating things. How do you think universities enforce cellphone rules in their exams? Personally I have never been strip searched during an exam and I'd be very interested to hear from somebody who has.
Basically you just put this down in your rule book, and penalize anyone who is seen to have cellphones on them without going out of your way to search everyone.
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On June 19 2017 08:31 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 06:44 Liquid`Snute wrote: Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened. Why can't you just have your phone taken away during the match, and then the admin returns it to you after the match? You're not affecting a player's "quality of life" at the tournament during their matches. Depending on the event and the number of players, that could be a major pain to handle logistically.
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We can't enforce rules 100% so let's just have no rules at all.
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How is this rule hard to enforce? Back in my college days, debate competitions have this no-electronic-device rule too. Look, it wouldn't eliminate cheating for sure (teams still have ways to communicate with coaches). But it does make cheating more difficult, less rampant, and ultimately heightens the integrity of the competition - with minimal cost.
No strip search. The enforcement policy was simply no device on the table or in sight. That could be the policy here too (although it shouldn't be too hard to do a light search on players too).
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On June 19 2017 08:33 blabber wrote: I vaguely remember Kespa officials scanning players for metal objects before they can enter the booth during SC BW Proleague matches I definitely remember them using handheld metal detectors at one point.
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On June 19 2017 05:47 Aegwynn wrote:Probably most progamer never thought about this, you might just gave them a great idea yeah you a smart guy :D its so simple but possible so i would go for a ban on Phones.
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If anyone wants to cheat they can just place any kind of remote activated vibrator in their shoe or whatever. It wouldn't be hard. Unless you do a full metal detection/search then cheaters would still do it easily.
Most good players have integrity though. Reminds me of the ssl final hero vs byul, hero could hear the crowd cheering at byuls early pool and paused the game to say it was unacceptable or something.
Even if some people are willing to throw matches for money, they probably wouldn't go far enough to actually cheat.
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On June 19 2017 06:44 Liquid`Snute wrote: Non issue. Top wcs players are morally sound and would rather be losing and be poor, than winning by cheating or match fixing. Most of the people in wcs play for fun and glory, money to live sure but not that type of greed. Taking away phone does nothing besides lowering player quality of life at tournaments. a try-hard cheater can still use advanced cheating gear even with a phone being taken. But afaik in all my years of sc this is a non issue and I'd be very surprised to learn if communication ever happened. That's a very surprising mindset to me. In all the games I have played, if there is a way to cheat the game, people cheat. Morals basically don't exist in a competitive environment and some people (not all, of course) will try to win at all costs. Maybe what's happening is that WCS is so devoid of potential monetary reward that people are indeed playing for "fun" and "glory", but I doubt no cheating has ever happened for these players. See Korean tournaments. Matchfixing is exactly the same as cheating, you do it to guaranty yourself some sort of win (not in the actual game, but in real money) instead of competing fairly and preferring to "lose and be poor".
If Snute is claiming that SC2 players are too cool to cheat at all, he's also admitting that SC2 is competitively dead :D. If the competition is high enough (see, mainstream sports), players will try to get unfair advantages, for example, with doping (major examples in cycling).
I respect the trust in his fellow competitiors though.
Most good players have integrity though. Reminds me of the ssl final hero vs byul, hero could hear the crowd cheering at byuls early pool and paused the game to say it was unacceptable or something. Maybe most good players are indeed honorable. But for one herO, who's to say that there aren't 3 zerOs who hear something and don't say anything? I'm sure that has happened before (a player hearing the crowd and not saying anything about it, when it gives him some kind of vague advantage), and it's probably not considered cheating in hindsight.
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The solution is simple, make the players wear RF blocking spacesuits so wireless vibrators in all crevices will be blocked
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On June 19 2017 21:26 ZenithM wrote: Maybe what's happening is that WCS is so devoid of potential monetary reward that people are indeed playing for "fun" and "glory", but I doubt no cheating has ever happened for these players. People cheat in 50$ tournaments, this has nothing to do with lack of monetary gain.
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On June 19 2017 21:57 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 21:26 ZenithM wrote: Maybe what's happening is that WCS is so devoid of potential monetary reward that people are indeed playing for "fun" and "glory", but I doubt no cheating has ever happened for these players. People cheat in 50$ tournaments, this has nothing to do with lack of monetary gain. Yes, that's what I believe too (my "maybe" was mostly rhetorical :D). People will cheat in any setting, really. That's why I was surprised at Snute's stance on this.
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On June 19 2017 06:23 Elentos wrote: Here's the thing though, if you have to give your phone to staff for the duration of the match, how are you gonna go to the LR threads mid-series for strategic advice? If you typed loudly enough they'd know.
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Actually this is not my cellphone in the picture. I have diabetes and this is a device I use to monitor my blood sugar levels. I had put my cellphone in my bag on the floor. In Austin the admins confiscated your cellphone for all on-stage matches at least as far as I know. Hopefully the same is being done in Jönköping just in case. But for the ro16 no one asked me about it however. I hope and don't think anyone abuses this, but maybe for the big matches they should do what they did in Austin. I do agree with Snute's thoughts on the whole thing though.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On June 19 2017 09:03 Solar424 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 08:43 DeadByDawn wrote: They could have a remote controlled vibrator up their butt. Strip search followed by cavity examination is the only way to be sure.
Or maybe we are just being a little stupid here. If someone is willing to go that far to get an advantage they deserve to win. Uhm, not sure that this would actually worked. Cannot imagine a player that would ignore an anal vibrator and focused purely on the game. It's actually a perfect distraction. But hey, win or lose, the game would be awesome :D
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In wcg the rules used to forbid cell phones and any electronic devices for this reason but we never really searched anybody. But it was there and if we had suspicion we could have used it.
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What could be done is something in the line of what is done in chess. Players could play in places where phones don't go through. So no communication with outside. If they wanna tweet, I guess there computer have the internet anyway
And if it is too complicated for group stage in DH because of players number, they can at least have that in later stage of competition so that cheating player would go out first
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On June 19 2017 08:43 DeadByDawn wrote: They could have a remote controlled vibrator up their butt. Strip search followed by cavity examination is the only way to be sure.
Someone's been reading too much hentai.
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Yeah, surrendering phones should be mandatory.
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On June 19 2017 22:49 Namshar wrote: Actually this is not my cellphone in the picture. I have diabetes and this is a device I use to monitor my blood sugar levels. I had put my cellphone in my bag on the floor. In Austin the admins confiscated your cellphone for all on-stage matches at least as far as I know. Hopefully the same is being done in Jönköping just in case. But for the ro16 no one asked me about it however. I hope and don't think anyone abuses this, but maybe for the big matches they should do what they did in Austin. I do agree with Snute's thoughts on the whole thing though. Not sure if it is you, but if it is, thanks for the clear up.
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On June 20 2017 00:47 207aicila wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2017 08:43 DeadByDawn wrote: They could have a remote controlled vibrator up their butt. Strip search followed by cavity examination is the only way to be sure.
Someone's been reading too much hentai. You mean not enough? That's just the beginning... probably.
I wouldn't know.
Heard that from a friend.
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TBH I'm not against it, even though SC2 players are very honorable generally etc, you can never be too sure. Of course there is always new techniques to cheat but this would be a preventative method similar to how airports do it. Yes, there's pretty much no chance people will make a bomb using liquids and water bottles - that doesn't mean it doesn't increase the sense of security and doesn't scare anyone off.
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Imagine if there was some functionality in broadcasting that made like a lag between the matches and the stream... some form of... i don't know... delay...
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On June 20 2017 03:53 AHMartinTweets wrote: Imagine if there was some functionality in broadcasting that made like a lag between the matches and the stream... some form of... i don't know... delay...
Doesn't help for offline cheating as you can have someone on the event site ... However I don't think it's much of an issue anyways.
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On June 20 2017 00:47 LDaVinci wrote: What could be done is something in the line of what is done in chess. Players could play in places where phones don't go through. So no communication with outside. If they wanna tweet, I guess there computer have the internet anyway
And if it is too complicated for group stage in DH because of players number, they can at least have that in later stage of competition so that cheating player would go out first
yeah this is probably the only reliable/realistic solution, if you wanna do something about this
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