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On September 18 2017 02:18 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 01:10 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote: Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle) To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive. You find them more impressive because they look more impressive. Life, Maru, ByuN, they make fantastic highlight reels or top-voted Reddit clips with incredible micro that just blows people away. Inno just wins. No flashy micro, no fancy engagements, no crazy allins. Just trophies.
It's not just about fancy micro though. It's about doing what no other player can (ingame). Rain was incredible to watch because he took the defensive toss to a whole new level for example. Maru was incredible to watch because there was a time he was pretty much only terran that could beat protoss (and not just beat, he dominated them). sOs had games where he outsmarted his opponents on a level they never realise. Even TY (and Dear at his peak) is a positional god in the lategame.
I feel like I could analyse those guys games for hours on end, that's what make them stand out to me personally
With Inno (most of the time) I feel like I've seen it all before. His TvP wins look like regular TvP wins, his TvZ wins look like standard TvZ wins. He just gets them more than anyone else. I'm blown away by his results, not his actual gameplay
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On September 18 2017 02:36 ParksonVN wrote: the same with Flash, personally i prefer being a fan of someone i can learn from and teach me how to be success, like Inno. Of course fancy moments from ByuN, Maru are impressive, but you learn nothing from them. I bet most of the Terran players out there learn the most from InnoVation's play amongs all the Terran pros.
That's because Inno is the definition of a standard terran. He chooses the most optimal builds and practices them to perfection. If you want to get good with terran just try and copy him. But tbh you can do that with any top level player they're all 1000x better than anyone else
To say you learn nothing from ByuN or Maru is not true. They've both had times where they were the best terran in the world. And both shown techniques and strategies that no one else did
Remember when ByuN showed every terran how to get 3RR nerfed? Or why the 2-1-1 was the best TvZ opening in LoTV for so long? Remember when every terran was losing to protoss and Maru found a way to win with an entirely different approach? Or when he showed people that you didn't have to mass vikings if you wanted to beat colossus. Those guys aren't just "front page of reddit clip" material, they've innovated the way terran is played many times
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On September 17 2017 09:31 nomito wrote:
Not shitting on anyone here, but i won't pretend a pretty mediocre TvP series was extremely high level starcraft, if sOs was half the player people are saying he is he would have won this one 4-0, i can't see a situation where Stats or Classic lose games 2 and 3 here. All in all, this was a pretty low level finals.
Did you forget, perhaps, that sOs 3-0 Stats in semifinals? Just 'cuz it looks boring to watch doesn't mean it's low-quality play. I woudn't use the word "mediocre" here. And do you seriously think it would have been more fun to watch something like another Neeb 4-0 Snute or Inno 4-0 TY?
Reaching game 7 in a best-of-7 basically means both players are equally matched at the time. You can't say this about a Bo5 or lower.
INnoVation didn't look worse because he was playing worse but because sOs was playing out of his mind. If INnoVation were like Stats, he would have been defeated 4-0 no problem.
The games looked "mediocre" to you because the players weren't putting on a show for fans. They were duking it out for $35k. These are two players of whom it is repeatedly said that they just know what it takes to win and will do that.
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How much tax does INnovation pay on prize money in S. Korea?
Poll: How much S. Korea prize tax does INnoVation pay?0% : Income tax only (2) 25% 5% : Duty tax (0) 0% 10% : Regulation tax (1) 13% 15% : Excise tax (0) 0% 20% : Luxury tax (0) 0% 25% : Entertainment tax (0) 0% 50% : You're not allowed to win this frequently (5) 63% 8 total votes Your vote: How much S. Korea prize tax does INnoVation pay? (Vote): 0% : Income tax only (Vote): 5% : Duty tax (Vote): 10% : Regulation tax (Vote): 15% : Excise tax (Vote): 20% : Luxury tax (Vote): 25% : Entertainment tax (Vote): 50% : You're not allowed to win this frequently
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On September 18 2017 01:10 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote: Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle) To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive.
I find innovation to be the most entertaining player, and the most impressive. life was boring as hell to watch. maru's unimpressive in macro games and mech. rain was very one dimensional and predictable.
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On September 18 2017 03:15 harmonyxtc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 01:10 Fango wrote:On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote: Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle) To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive. I find innovation to be the most entertaining player, and the most impressive. life was boring as hell to watch. maru's unimpressive in macro games and mech. rain was very one dimensional and predictable.
I feel like you missed out on a lot of HoTS to say all that
I mean I agree Rain was kinda one dimensional, but he was still glorious to watch as no one before him reached that level. Maru's focus was the early/midgame but he had his fair share of insane macro series in all 3 matchups. And Life was boring to watch? First time I've heard that.
In fact Maru vs Life is, to this day, the most watched SC2 series of all time so I guess that's not a popular opinion
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I think it is weird that you liked Rain so much when his style would be comparable to Inno's. Simple, solid play because they understand the game so well. I get Maru and Life but bringing up Rain kinda destroys the point imo
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Why did DT not work? Did SOS get stuck on supply?
It looked like a bad execution but I can't pintpoint exactly where it went wrong besides GS not covering any of units. SOS was 4 supplies behind in army despite taking no 3rd. Also zealots seemed too few.
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Rain was impressive, but not really entertaining.
Maru is more complicated. His mechanincs are so on point that he won with inferior unit comps which was extremely impressive and also entertaining, but also very frustrating when he did lose because he could have just won if he made the proper units. I remember him refusing to build Vikings against Collo based armies, and not building Ghosts against HT. That decision alone lost him both of his series vs. Dear in 2013. I disliked him for years because of that. (Playstyle, not the series)
Life was the God of Zerg, he could be agressive, he could macro, he could mindgame... He was my favourite player before he fucked up.
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On September 18 2017 03:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think it is weird that you liked Rain so much when his style would be comparable to Inno's. Simple, solid play because they understand the game so well. I get Maru and Life but brining up Rain kinda destroys the point imo
Rain seemed to play in a way that other tosses couldn't quite reach. He optimised how to play defensively on the highest level. Managing to win through his awareness and positioning. It was really interesting to watch
My point was that Inno's wins look like standard wins for each matchup, just that Inno got them more than anyone else. He hasn't really found a style that's entirely his own, he just plays whatever is the standard strategies most likely to win.
I'm not trying to hate on him or anything. I'm just saying personally, I find it more entertaining to watch players that can win a way no one else can
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Austria24413 Posts
On September 18 2017 03:34 highsis wrote: Why did DT not work? Did SOS get stuck on supply?
It looked like a bad execution but I can't pintpoint exactly where it went wrong besides GS not covering any of units. SOS was 4 supplies behind in army despite taking no 3rd. Also zealots seemed too few.
INnoVation opened 3CC and took no damage at all from the DT drop. By the time sOs did his DT/charge all-in, INnoVation's early economy had already translated into a strong enough army to defend easily.
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On September 18 2017 03:36 Sakat wrote: Maru is more complicated. His mechanincs are so on point that he won with inferior unit comps which was extremely impressive and also entertaining, but also very frustrating when he did lose because he could have just won if he made the proper units. I remember him refusing to build Vikings against Collo based armies, and not building Ghosts against HT. That decision alone lost him both of his series vs. Dear in 2013. I disliked him for years because of that. (Playstyle, not the series)
His struggle to transition is always the biggest issue for him.
Although it was during a time when every terran was stuggling, a lot, and Maru had decided to play differently (focus on mines and aggression with a heavy medivac count, instead of transitioning to the normal mass viking/ghost). Using that style he managed to crush toss after toss dispite imbalances in the matchup. Although in some games, his lack of expirence in transitioning led to his downfall.
While Inno has found more success over his career, he only tended to win when terran was favoured, or at least doing well. Maru was the one who found a way to win against protoss when no other player could. As a terran during HoTS, it was inspiring to watch. That was what made him one of the best players, it wasn't just the "highlight reel" micro people remember him for. He truly innovated how to play
(I'm not trying to devalue Inno's acheivements btw, I'm just saying why I personally prefer other players)
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On September 18 2017 03:47 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 03:34 highsis wrote: Why did DT not work? Did SOS get stuck on supply?
It looked like a bad execution but I can't pintpoint exactly where it went wrong besides GS not covering any of units. SOS was 4 supplies behind in army despite taking no 3rd. Also zealots seemed too few. INnoVation opened 3CC and took no damage at all from the DT drop. By the time sOs did his DT/charge all-in, INnoVation's early economy had already translated into a strong enough army to defend easily. Also in the crucial engagement (when Inno was taking his third), Inno scanned the DTs before they attacked and sOs kinda vacillated, first pulling the DTs back a bit before charging and blinking. This let Inno's bio ball get 2-3 seconds of free damage. Which is a lot.
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On September 18 2017 03:34 highsis wrote: Why did DT not work? Did SOS get stuck on supply?
It looked like a bad execution but I can't pintpoint exactly where it went wrong besides GS not covering any of units. SOS was 4 supplies behind in army despite taking no 3rd. Also zealots seemed too few. INno went for a quick 3rd CC which is not only very rare but also basically a BO win. E : for some reason I didn't see Olli's post
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On September 18 2017 04:01 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 03:34 highsis wrote: Why did DT not work? Did SOS get stuck on supply?
It looked like a bad execution but I can't pintpoint exactly where it went wrong besides GS not covering any of units. SOS was 4 supplies behind in army despite taking no 3rd. Also zealots seemed too few. INno went for a quick 3rd CC which is not only very rare but also basically a BO win. E : for some reason I didn't see Olli's post
I think it's quite rare to open 3CC in the 6th game of a bo7 against sOs, especially when the sOs cheesed you a lot during the serie...
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Does anyone know where I can find that cool preview/trailer of the finals on YouTube? The one that ends with INnoVation and sOs looking at each other in a field. Thanks.
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The narrative Inno wins only when terran is strong is so ridiculous.
The game was far more imbalance when MVP won (remember Gom TvT ?) his first three GSL. Same for the first GSL of Zest when Protoss only uses blink staler all in. And Life has beaten MVP for his first GSL when it was infestor broodlord party at the end of WOL.
Just few exemples, still a huge fan of these great players.
Also the narrative Inno is just a stupid mechanical beast is wrong. He was the first to use or to perfect a lot of builds. Few exemples that comes to my mind : - Parad Push against Zerg with marines, mines, marauders, medivac - Hellbat drop - SCV Push against protoss in HOTS (MVP was the first to use it in WOL if i remember correctly) - Mech against Zerg with BC, Raven in the end of HOTS (there was also a crazy mech game vs DRG in a RO 8 game 1 of his 2014 or 2015 Season 3 GSL) - One of the first to perfect mech against terran in HOTS
There was also a lot of original builds he uses only one time (drilling claws mines drop against Zest RO 8 GSL, Two starport banshee...)
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On September 18 2017 03:36 Sakat wrote: Rain was impressive, but not really entertaining.
Maru is more complicated. His mechanincs are so on point that he won with inferior unit comps which was extremely impressive and also entertaining, but also very frustrating when he did lose because he could have just won if he made the proper units. I remember him refusing to build Vikings against Collo based armies, and not building Ghosts against HT. That decision alone lost him both of his series vs. Dear in 2013. I disliked him for years because of that. (Playstyle, not the series)
Life was the God of Zerg, he could be agressive, he could macro, he could mindgame... He was my favourite player before he fucked up. But those nergasms when Maru was picking colossus after colossus, sending multiple armies over 3 screens that even max zoom out couldn't comprehend.
And Maru had some impressive macro games too.
vs. Myungsik(in spoiler), vs. Classic(in spoiler), vs. Dear... + Show Spoiler +
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Bomber was the first one to use scv pulls in HotS and hellbat drops were used since the beta.
But other builds Inno popularized are: -Hellion Cyclone into mech against Zerg -2 factory tank hellbat liberator push in tvt -2/1/1 with double tank follow-up in TvZ (all in 2016)
Edit: referring to Frenchy91
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On September 18 2017 16:51 Frenchy91 wrote: The narrative Inno wins only when terran is strong is so ridiculous.
The game was far more imbalance when MVP won (remember Gom TvT ?) his first three GSL. Same for the first GSL of Zest when Protoss only uses blink staler all in. And Life has beaten MVP for his first GSL when it was infestor broodlord party at the end of WOL.
Just few exemples, still a huge fan of these great players.
Also the narrative Inno is just a stupid mechanical beast is wrong. He was the first to use or to perfect a lot of builds. Few exemples that comes to my mind : - Parad Push against Zerg with marines, mines, marauders, medivac - Hellbat drop - SCV Push against protoss in HOTS (MVP was the first to use it in WOL if i remember correctly) - Mech against Zerg with BC, Raven in the end of HOTS (there was also a crazy mech game vs DRG in a RO 8 game 1 of his 2014 or 2015 Season 3 GSL) - One of the first to perfect mech against terran in HOTS
There was also a lot of original builds he uses only one time (drilling claws mines drop against Zest RO 8 GSL, Two starport banshee...)
Yes inno is actually creating and perfecting builds. But you totally dodged the point especially when we talk about Mvp. Both his win vs Squirtle and loss in finale vs Life are perfect exemple of a player still performing at the top level despite Terran being in a bad state. Something Inno has never done. Every single peak of Inno's dominance come from a dominance of Terran in general in Korea.
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