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INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this GSL were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others.
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On September 18 2017 01:10 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2017 23:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 17 2017 22:32 Nebuchad wrote: Really hope that Inno doesn't become the GOAT of Starcraft. I'd be hard pressed to find something that would kill my interest for the game faster.
Inno is very good at everything that I don't find impressive in the game, and he's abysmally bad at everything that I find impressive. Him being the GOAT would mean that nothing I care about matters in this game even remotely.
Just the fact that this discussion exists makes me want to watch something else, to be honest. He is "abysmally bad" at everything you find impressive? What would that be then? I get it, he is known as a mechanical beast and that's not the part of starcraft you like but to be on the level he is you aren't bad at any part of starcraft. To fair I understand were he's coming from. I cannot deny Inno is the best mechanical player ever, and also one of the best starcraft player of all time. But damn can he look boring doing it. The players I find impressive are the ones that can seemingly be put in any situation and know how to win, that can pull of clutch plays you didn't think were possible etc Inno does the same stuff as everyone else for the most part, he just does it better. I find his on-the-spot tactics and decision making ingame to be ok, but nothing special. He always has the most optimal build and strategy prepared beforehand that either wins (most of the time), or doesn't. (this isn't meant to be a critism btw, I'm just talking about his playstyle) To put it simply, Inno stands out to me as someone who wins a lot. With other players they stand out for being able to play like no one else can. Examples being guys like Life, who was ahead of everyone else when it came to being an aggressive zerg. Or Maru, who used positioning and micro to somehow dominate protoss during peak imbalance. Or Rain pioneering the perfect defensive toss. Now none of those guys won as much as Inno, but somehow I find their acheivments to be more impressive. wtf? Rain is the protoss equivalent of INnoVation lol Rain is still the only player to this day to have won an OSL and a GSL, not that that's an impressive achievement in itself given that there were only 2 OSL's but still
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On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post
Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god
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Austria24413 Posts
On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god
And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run.
Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently.
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On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru.
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Austria24413 Posts
On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru.
Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results.
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On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results. I don't think I have to explain to you the importance of results when measuring skill. So let me say this then - I agree Zest always got too much shit for his PvT in HotS. But you know, when the results let a player down that much, it's not hard to understand why he got that much shit. Playing well or not, 50% is bad for a pro on that level.
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If we talk about skill only then TY, Taeja and Cure are GOAT.
If results : INno
2010-2012 era =/= skill
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never thought a mini-rant about how people look down on Neebs's kespa cup win compared to Zest's got us to Taeja, Cure and TY
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Zest had the best PvZ back then, and his PvP record has never been topped (I think). His PvT was only decent, but it didn't really matter considering terrans were doing trash at the time anyway. When he won 2016 GSL he did all three matchups and went 22-3 in the whole tournament. Which is one of the best GSL runs of all time in terms of ez. Athough Dark and Stats could probably challange his PvZ/P, his PvT was probably the best of anyone's ever
Neeb's kespa cup run was a different matter, he was playing a meta that the koreans had less experience at (blink disruptor), and he could pretty much only win against protosses. It was the only time period, and only bracket setup, that he could win with. That's why it came accross as a fluke due to bracket luck, he's never been able to replicate the result. When Zest won kespa cup, it was coming of a year of domination over korean protoss and zerg
To disregard a player's result due to them avoiding a weak matchup is pointless. You know Innovation avoided terrans when he won IEM? Does that make his win not as good? And Neeb dominence of the foreign scene is nothing compared with Inno/Zest/MVPs on the korean scene. I don't care if he's good in all matchups he gets easy opponents (for him)
edit: also, many players have a weak matchup. Inno's TvT was awful until recently, Dark's ZvZ was bad for most of his career, soO can't win against terran etc. Doesn't take away from the fact they can still win tournaments (well maybe not soO)
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On September 18 2017 23:03 Fango wrote: Zest had the best PvZ back then, and his PvP record has never been topped (I think). His PvT was only decent, but it didn't really matter considering terrans were doing trash at the time anyway. When he won 2016 GSL he did all three matchups and went 22-3 in the whole tournament. Which is one of the best GSL runs of all time in terms of ez. Athough Dark and Stats could probably challange his PvZ/P, his PvT was probably the best of anyone's ever
Neeb's kespa cup run was a different matter, he was playing a meta that the koreans had less experience at (blink disruptor), and he could pretty much only win against protosses. It was the only time period, and only bracket setup, that he could win with. That's why it came accross as a fluke due to bracket luck, he's never been able to replicate the result. When Zest won kespa cup, it was coming of a year of domination over korean protoss and zerg
To disregard a player's result due to them avoiding a weak matchup is pointless. You know Innovation avoided terrans when he won IEM? Does that make his win not as good? And Neeb dominence of the foreign scene is nothing compared with Inno/Zest/MVPs on the korean scene. I don't care if he's good in all matchups he gets easy opponents (for him) in his 2014 GSL he played only one PvT vs Maru and he lost it 2-1 Neeb also beat Rogue and Pet though, and stats is one of the strongest PvP players
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On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results.
If "skill" (or whatever you perceive as skill, there really is no good definition in the first place) doesn't translate into good results then it's arguable that the skill isn't as high as you would imply here. Your "eye test" doesn't mean anything when at the end of the day player x still loses his games. And before you say "but context!", the context is given by the consistent competitive level in korean tournaments. I agree that Zest wasn't as bad in PvT as people in general made it out to be, but implying that he was really good and t only looked bad because his other matchups were godly is kinda ridiculous.
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On September 18 2017 23:09 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 23:03 Fango wrote: Zest had the best PvZ back then, and his PvP record has never been topped (I think). His PvT was only decent, but it didn't really matter considering terrans were doing trash at the time anyway. When he won 2016 GSL he did all three matchups and went 22-3 in the whole tournament. Which is one of the best GSL runs of all time in terms of ez. Athough Dark and Stats could probably challange his PvZ/P, his PvT was probably the best of anyone's ever
Neeb's kespa cup run was a different matter, he was playing a meta that the koreans had less experience at (blink disruptor), and he could pretty much only win against protosses. It was the only time period, and only bracket setup, that he could win with. That's why it came accross as a fluke due to bracket luck, he's never been able to replicate the result. When Zest won kespa cup, it was coming of a year of domination over korean protoss and zerg
To disregard a player's result due to them avoiding a weak matchup is pointless. You know Innovation avoided terrans when he won IEM? Does that make his win not as good? And Neeb dominence of the foreign scene is nothing compared with Inno/Zest/MVPs on the korean scene. I don't care if he's good in all matchups he gets easy opponents (for him) in his 2014 GSL he played only one PvT vs Maru and he lost it 2-1 Neeb also beat Rogue and Pet though, and stats is one of the strongest PvP players
Rogue and Pet were trash. Beating them doesn't indicate he was at a high level at all. And like I said, Neeb could only go toe-to-toe with top level players in PvP, and with a specific PvP meta. He never repeated this result. That's why it looks like a fluke.
Zest was winning korean events for an entire year, kespa cup only added another layer to his dominence
You can't disregard a win because they avoided a weak matchup. Almost every tournament win has bracket luck to some extent. Inno has won events avoiding TvT, herO has avoided PvP for a lot of his career etc etc
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Austria24413 Posts
On September 18 2017 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results. If "skill" (or whatever you perceive as skill, there really is no good definition in the first place) doesn't translate into good results then it's arguable that the skill isn't as high as you would imply here. Your "eye test" doesn't mean anything when at the end of the day player x still loses his games. And before you say "but context!", the context is given by the consistent competitive level in korean tournaments. I agree that Zest wasn't as bad in PvT as people in general made it out to be, but implying that he was really good and t only looked bad because his other matchups were godly is kinda ridiculous.
And it's still how it was. He had an overall 56% winrate vs Terran in 2014, that's not horrible by any means. 8 of his 15 lost PvT series were against Maru, Cure and TaeJa - three of the best TvPers in 2014. So it really isn't ridiculous to claim that his PvT wasn't actually that bad, he just struggled against a very specific playstyle (the Maru mass MMMM drop style) and lost to Taeja like every other Protoss did.
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On September 18 2017 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results. I agree that Zest wasn't as bad in PvT as people in general made it out to be, but implying that he was really good and t only looked bad because his other matchups were godly is kinda ridiculous.
This is true to some extent though. He was okay at PvT, could win against top terrans from time to time. But his PvZ and PvP were unrivaled, which is what made PvT his weak point.
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Austria24413 Posts
That's the thing, his PvT was pretty mediocre overall, but 56% against top Korean opposition is not as bad as people make it out to be, especially considering the specifics of that statistic. It wouldn't have won him championships though like his other two match-ups did at times. That's the contrast I'm talking about.
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On September 18 2017 23:39 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results. If "skill" (or whatever you perceive as skill, there really is no good definition in the first place) doesn't translate into good results then it's arguable that the skill isn't as high as you would imply here. Your "eye test" doesn't mean anything when at the end of the day player x still loses his games. And before you say "but context!", the context is given by the consistent competitive level in korean tournaments. I agree that Zest wasn't as bad in PvT as people in general made it out to be, but implying that he was really good and t only looked bad because his other matchups were godly is kinda ridiculous. And it's still how it was. He had an overall 56% winrate vs Terran in 2014, that's not horrible by any means. 8 of his 15 lost PvT series were against Maru, Cure and TaeJa - three of the best TvPers in 2014. So it really isn't ridiculous to claim that his PvT wasn't actually that bad, he just struggled against a very specific playstyle (the Maru mass MMMM drop style) and lost to Taeja like every other Protoss did.
It isn't ridiculous to claim that his PvT "wasn't that bad" but i think you were trying to do a bit more here He was 31-31 in offline PvT in 2014 with losses against MKP and Bbyong as well. People acted like he is the worst PvT player ever back then and that might have been a bit much but he surely wasn't that great at it and your "eye test" saying otherwise doesn't convince me when the sample size is good enough and he reaches 50% there. Even if it was against some of the best TvPers, you should still win sometimes if you are actually pretty good at the matchup
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Austria24413 Posts
On September 18 2017 23:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2017 23:39 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 23:32 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 18 2017 19:47 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 19:43 Elentos wrote:On September 18 2017 19:33 Olli wrote:On September 18 2017 18:31 AzAlexZ wrote:On September 18 2017 17:51 Ej_ wrote: INnoVation actually performed better in TvZ than Mvp at the peak of brood lord/infestor in Korea (the RorO/Sniper GSLs). And he kept on winning insanely stacked premiers when Terran wasn't the strongest race. Pretty much the only 2 times when Bogus wasn't a top 3 Terran were 2014 blink (when there were 3 Terrans in Code S, imbalance gone much further than Mvp winning the bracket vs Squirtle that was actually Zergless) and early LotV when he played League of Legends. You can't tell me that his IEM and GSL wins against soO, the IEM vs Stats or even this IEM were because of Terran dominance. Terran dominance has been mostly INnoVation putting every Zerg and most Terrans in their place. And yes, a strong player peaks when their race is strongest (just like Mvp/Life/Zest)
I don't want to argue who is "the GOAT", because frankly I think that's an idiotic debate, but saying that INnoVation performs only when Terran is strong is at the very least misleading.
edit: And 2 port banshee into double armory mech was made by Ryung, INnoVation just improved the build. But yes, he has made plenty of others. this might be totally unrelated to your post Zest played an ungodly 2014, just like neeb did the foreign scene and Innovation the korean scene this year but most of his success came from PvP and PvZ, unlike Inno and Neeb who excelled in all 3 matchups In Zest's royal road GSL run, he only played one PvT, against Maru, and he lost it; he played only PvP in KeSPa Cup and the only final he lost in was against, no surprise, a Terran. Just like People discredit Neeb's KeSPa Cup win for having 'easy' matchps, I could say the same for Zest. I could but i won't cuz Zest is best and is still a god And he destroyed especially the best Terrans in 2016, while also beating the second best Protoss (Dear), the second best Zerg (soO) in his GSL run. Also Zest's PvT in 2014 was massively underrated. It was his weakest match-up, yes, but his other two were unrivaled by anyone. He was still a very good PvTer and only really lost to Maru consistently. He was 50% in offline PvT, that's not very good. And he had more trouble with Cure and TaeJa than with Maru. Lots of that was Bo1s. And TaeJa was the among the best TvPers in the world for most of his career. As someone who played the game at a pretty high level at the time I can tell you that Zest was very good in PvT. But hey, skill apparently doesn't count when talking about skill. Only results. If "skill" (or whatever you perceive as skill, there really is no good definition in the first place) doesn't translate into good results then it's arguable that the skill isn't as high as you would imply here. Your "eye test" doesn't mean anything when at the end of the day player x still loses his games. And before you say "but context!", the context is given by the consistent competitive level in korean tournaments. I agree that Zest wasn't as bad in PvT as people in general made it out to be, but implying that he was really good and t only looked bad because his other matchups were godly is kinda ridiculous. And it's still how it was. He had an overall 56% winrate vs Terran in 2014, that's not horrible by any means. 8 of his 15 lost PvT series were against Maru, Cure and TaeJa - three of the best TvPers in 2014. So it really isn't ridiculous to claim that his PvT wasn't actually that bad, he just struggled against a very specific playstyle (the Maru mass MMMM drop style) and lost to Taeja like every other Protoss did. It isn't ridiculous to claim that his PvT "wasn't that bad" but i think you were trying to do a bit more here He was 31-31 in offline PvT in 2014 with losses against MKP and Bbyong as well. People acted like he is the worst PvT player ever back then and that might have been a bit much but he surely wasn't that great at it and your "eye test" saying otherwise doesn't convince me when the sample size is good enough and he reaches 50% there. Even if it was against some of the best TvPers, you should still win sometimes if you are actually pretty good at the matchup
He did beat Maru a few times, and beat INnoVation whenever they met. Bbyong wasn't a bad player at the time. So it really isn't like he was terrible at the matchup. And he wasn't even bad at it. He struggled against very specific players mostly.
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I don't understand how this conversation got here, but as far as Zest's PvT in 2014 goes, it wasn't terrible but it wasn't great either. Mediocre is probably the best word to describe it.
His PvT was really weak relative to his other matchups though, which is probably why he got so much shit for it.
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Didn't he improve his PvT in 2015? I remember him beatin Inno and Maru in a few tournaments. While his PvP/Z went down a bit until LoTV came out. He was still strong toward the end of HoTS though
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