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Blizzard: Out of touch?

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 All
 
 sluggaslamoo   Australia. June 12 2011 14:22. Posts 3474
Profile Blog # 
I can't help but feel Blizzard is totally out of touch with the community. Sure I don't surf on Battle.net all that often, but often a lot of the complaints mimic those of Teamliquid.

I can also see why when Blizzard has meetings with the Prime team and other pro-gamers, such as the recent Browder & Sen interview, that almost no changes result from them.




EDIT: Issues on Maps
I am adding this in because I don't think I came across correctly when I was talking about communication (its hard to get a grasp of the feeling you are presenting to another person sometimes, its not meant to be an angry post, but more of a comical one).

The problem I am mainly pointing out is Blizzards ability to ignore other peoples suggestions until they eventually "cave in" from a lot of pressure (e.g "Do you really want chat channels?").

So yes, Blizzard does a lot of interviews, talks to the community a lot, organise meetings with pro-gamers, the way they go about this process by side-stepping or denying questions, often results in not achieving a lot.

So in this case, Blizzard caves in to a lot of pressure for new maps. But ultimately Blizzard chooses which GSL map to be put in, and the modifications they want done to it. When the suggestion to not change certain aspects was given, this was not actually taken into account.

Here is the interview.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224384

LSPrime, congratulations on having your map Tal’Darim Altar get into the Blizzard ladder pool, that is excellent! Can you tell us about how that came to be? Did Blizzard contact you to discuss the map? Or did you sign on to play one day and say, “WHAT–THAT’S MY MAP?!”



LSP: Two months ago I got a message from David Kim that they were going to put Tal’Darim Altar in the ladder, but they wanted to make some changes which I debated. We debated how many resources to have at the 2 multi (foreigners say third base), but by the game’s conventions the resources should be 8 minerals and 2 gas (I was angry they wanted to sacrifice balance for the convention).

David Kim suggested adding destructible rocks but I didn’t agree with him, because the rocks are temporary ["the rocks are temporary" is the direct translation but it doesn't seem to be the true meaning.]

Eventually the base had 8 minerals and 2 gas as Blizzard wanted and they decided if they see a problem they will change it. And from the North American server I heard Protoss is too strong on Tal’Darim, but I’m not sure if Blizzard will change it.



Now Blizzard did do a poll on destructible rocks. (I think this was a good move by Blizzard, I believe they should do this more)

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2228423682

The point remains that Blizzard still maintained their authoritarian stance, even after massive amounts of pressure to add new maps or even GSL maps. When they finally decided to add one GSL map, it still had to be "their" way. Which isn't really good form given Blizzards history with maps, compared to an experienced map-maker.

So whether it is a pro-gamer, a pro map-maker, or a group. It doesn't matter whether they are wrong or right, the problem I see is not that they are not listening, its the process in which they listen.

Hence you can still have bad communication and be out of touch with the community, even if you actively talking to them.




Issues on Gameplay
To take a quote (translation) from the most recent Browder / Sen interview.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=231621

Note this is a summary by a Translator



Sen & Interviewers:
a lots of pros chinese dont think the game is closed to balanced. Comparing rush in BW and sc2, rushing in sc2 are much powerful and have follow up to them, unlike BW they are heavily punished. (dustin troll the chinese trans at this part, i skip) is it intentionally in design?

Dustin Browder:
no, we just make the game and the pros decided how they will play the game. i dont believe rush are that strong, i dont really agree with the question so i will talk to the balance designed team about that problem (he answered this like trying to dodge the question, press skill lol)

Sen & Interviewers:
but the rush are stronger than BW

Dustin Browder:
we dont make the game based on BW: new engine, new system, 2 games are not the same.



Its not like theres a communication issue, I feel that is more of a pride issue. It's hard to believe a lot these issues aren't known by Blizzard, but it feels more like they are blinded by their own pride, and therefore these issues don't exist, to them.

As shown in the recent interviews with Browder, instead of acknowledging problems, these problems are seemingly "refuted" by pointing at numbers or giving an irrelevant (and disappointing) example which shows a quite distinct lack of knowledge of the game.




Issues on mechanics
EDIT: Dynamic Pathing
Given the seemingly positive statements given to the whole dynamic pathing thread, and its petition, given here.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223889

I feel that an appropriate response would have been to tell the dev team to have a look into it, rather
than saying its because of good pathing, and then segwaying into "go back to Brood War", as this is Sen we are talking about here.

Youtube video should automatically fast-forward to 10:30.


Here is the clip. You can listen to it. 10:30 all the way to the end. Feel free to give your own interpretation.

I will say that Browder is definitely incorrect one point. There are plenty of games with great pathing, without unit clumping. For example Company of Heroes. And hey, wasn't it achieved in the dynamic pathing mod?

However the point I'm trying to get across is the side-stepping by segwaying into a go back to BW statement. Obviously Sen as an SC2 pro-gamer cannot do that.




Apart from balance, the situation where one unit counters another unit is quite serious. This makes it very hard to stage a comeback in games. In Starcraft 1, players could make comebacks through the use of various strategies or through some other means. However, it is very difficult to do make combacks in Starcraft 2. What do you think about this issue?
(Interview here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=217398)



Dustin Browder:

Let's look at another situation, where we have banshees against marines. In a straight up fight, the marines will definitely win the fight. Yet, if the banshee has cloak, the situation would be different. Let's look at yet another situation, marauders against stalkers. If both sides a-move, clearly the marauder will win. However, if the stalker has blink, and uses blink well, the situation might turn out different as well.





Dustin Browder:

This situation where one unit counters another unit is not as serious as it was in Starcraft 1. Let's say we have a templar fighting a zergling, and the templar always loses. That's a situation where we really see one unit countering another unit. As of now, the balance between unit-counters and micro is better than in Starcraft 1.



I'm sure Browder and the rest of the design team are very smart, but I can't help but feel that they are stuck in their own little world.

For example I just don't understand Blizzards fascination with "meat shield units".

I mean honestly, every meat shield unit in SC2 is almost universally hated. Thor, Marauder, Roach, Immortal.

Blizzard unit design philosophy 101

Every race must have a dragoon!

[image loading]
A zerg dragoon!

[image loading]
A dragoon with stim!

[image loading]
Oh wait now protoss isn't as unique, we must make this meat-shield unit, more of a meat-shield!

Issues on Unit Design
Heres a quote from their most recent interview on Heart of the Swarm.



David Kim:

As far as learning through the multiplayer, we learned that not everything works exactly as planned - the different roles for the units didn't work as well as we had planned. We planned to have the immortal be more of a meat shield, and have the hardened shield be one of the core mechanics; however, the burst damage ended up being the more important part of the unit.



David Kim:
For example, the Overseer is not a cool unit, it's basically a glorfied scout at this point. We're looking at either taking out or replacing these units that aren't as cool. The other thing that we need to watch out is how these units interact in combination.


According to Blizzard the Overseer and Immortal are a high priority for redesign.

However the community thinks otherwise (by a huge margin).

Poll: Most uninteresting unit?

Colossus (863)
 
56%

Roach (216)
 
14%

Corruptor (178)
 
12%

Marauder (79)
 
5%

Mothership (45)
 
3%

Overseer (39)
 
3%

Reaper (26)
 
2%

(25)
 
2%

Immortal (21)
 
1%

(18)
 
1%

Baneling (17)
 
1%

Medivac (8)
 
1%

1535 total votes

Your vote: Most uninteresting unit?

(Vote): Colossus
(Vote): Roach
(Vote): Immortal
(Vote): Marauder
(Vote): Reaper
(Vote): Mothership
(Vote): Corruptor
(Vote): Medivac
(Vote): Overseer
(Vote): Baneling
(Vote):
(Vote):



Second most uninteresting unit poll
+ Show Spoiler +

Third most uninteresting unit poll
+ Show Spoiler +

(Sorry if I left out any units in the vote, I can only list so many).

However as this is a list of the most uninteresting units, it is suffice to say that a lot of these units probably need redesigning.




Heres the 3/4 translation from the recent Browder / Sen interview.

On June 09 2011 07:49 NB wrote:
sum up for people lazy of loading the video:

Show nested quote +



edit: im on part 3/4 right now.... gona watch live on three and comeback
edit2: done!


In the end its us who buys the games, and the pro-gamers who try to create interesting builds and fun games to watch that increases the longevity of the game. I believe the community should be listened to more, especially in interviews, rather than just refuting them with useless examples.

I'm pretty sure after a year of constant complaining, when Blizzard caved in and decided to make better maps, that there was an improvement. I mean even back then, the community was given terrible reasons for small maps, I don't see how its any different now with things like dynamic pathing, map control, etc.

It was just plain embarassing listening to the recent Browder / Sen interview, where every time some problematic issue was brought up, it was just ignored.

I hope Blizzard will listen to the community once more and make the drastic changes that are fundamental to the games progress as both a fun game and an E-Sport.



Probably the only real answer I've read in the entire thread. Even if I kind of disagree, it would be unfair not to put in the OP for objectivity.

+ Show Spoiler +

Although this answers the unexpected changes, the willingness to side-track and "share their knowledge of the game" rather than respond to the answer is not something that can be explained through logic, but more or less psychology and attitude.

Answers like "We encourage users to go back to BW if they want to" does not help SC2 Progamers in anyway because they can't do that. Meaning that instead of looking at an issue in depth, it will simply be completely ignored. So what was the purpose of the interview in the first place?

I believe this is part of the problem, they throw out questions, but when they are given an answer they don't like, it somehow doesn't register.

If you look at the poll released by BattleNet, the majority found destructible rocks as "They're annoying. I'd rather focus on the battle than watch rocks, and I don't like losing games because of a map that changes". So then if Blizzard needs to cater to the casuals as well, why were destructible rocks put on Tal Darim?

Catering to the casuals is also unnecessary. I have many friends that are extremely casual SC2 players. Will not play 1v1, will only do team mono-battles or starjeweled and left 2 die, to the one game a day semi-competitive players. Although your point addresses the thinking behind blizzard rather than what you actually desire.

I know, these guys would not care if there were a change in maps, units, etc. If units got harder, they would just use different ones that were easy to use (e.g lots of zerglings/hydras like beginners in BW).

The higher you go, the more changes have an effect. And when part of SC2's longevity is banking on televised games like BW, then I think this is quite important.

Response:
+ Show Spoiler +
Last edit: 2011-06-14 06:12:57
BW: Slugger[wOk] feel free to add | No Tidehunter
Old Post

 
 rawb   United States. June 12 2011 14:24. Posts 192
Profile # 
I think it's a pretty ridiculous leap to conclude that the immortal is the most likely unit to be changed because they said "instead of the hardened shields people like it for the burst damage".
 
Old Post

 
 udgnim   United States. June 12 2011 14:25. Posts 6446
Profile Blog # 
the developers/in-house testers never reach the skill level to adequately understand the game they create, but they sure do like to act like they understand
E-Sports is competitive video gaming with a spectator fan base. Do not take the word "Sports" literally.
Old Post

 
 Herper   June 12 2011 14:26. Posts 426
Profile # 
I wonder.. is it viable to bring back the reaver and take out the colossus?
 
Old Post

 
 TheRabidDeer   United States. June 12 2011 14:26. Posts 2321
Profile Blog # 

On June 12 2011 14:24 rawb wrote:
I think it's a pretty ridiculous leap to conclude that the immortal is the most likely unit to be changed because they said "instead of the hardened shields people like it for the burst damage".

I think its pretty ridiculous to assume that its the only unit that will be changed. HotS may see tons of changes. Hell, just introducing new units might bring changes to existing unit functions.

the developers/in-house testers never reach the skill level to adequately understand the game they create, but they sure do like to act like they understand

David kim is pretty damned good...
Last edit: 2011-06-12 14:27:01
Old Post

 
 IPA   United States. June 12 2011 14:27. Posts 2766
Profile # 
I think SC2 is incredibly fun and fairly balanced. I play it everyday. I'm happy with the game Blizzard has made and the balance changes they've implemented so far. I would like a slightly better map pool but even that issue is relatively minor; I'm fairly pleased with the current pool.

Do you think it is a bad game?
To die having made something more equal to the centuries than muscle and bone is mostly to shed weakness.
Old Post

 
 blade55555   United States. June 12 2011 14:28. Posts 14076
Profile Blog # 

On June 12 2011 14:26 Herper wrote:
I wonder.. is it viable to bring back the reaver and take out the colossus?


they would have to change some stuff because scarabs with how much units clump and smart AI so they don't all fire at 1 unit would be so strong I would cry everytime I played against protoss
When I think of something else, something will go here
Old Post

 
 Skwid1g   United States. June 12 2011 14:29. Posts 916
Profile # 
I'm fairly certain they want to remake the overseer because it doesn't fill its role well and is uninteresting, while the roach/marauder may be uninteresting, I'd say they do their respective jobs pretty well.
NaDa/Fantasy/Zero/Soulkey pls
Old Post

 
 Meteora.GB   Canada. June 12 2011 14:30. Posts 2161
Profile Blog # 
They're sometimes out of touch but they're not entirely off the chart right and wrong. They get some things right, that's for sure. Whatever game philosophy they have in mind doesn't always work out.
 
Old Post

 
 DeepBlu2   United States. June 12 2011 14:30. Posts 969
Profile Blog # 
I can't help but agree. I think their methods to tell balance, although statistics, are not the correct approach of designing a game, and although the game will take years to be close to perfection, I feel they are taking the wrong steps such as the map pool of 1 rush map, 1 normal map, and 1 macro map in HotS.
u gotta sk8
Old Post

 
 Jtn   June 12 2011 14:30. Posts 444
Profile Blog # 
I think maybe you, the OP, is out of touch? Blizzard has proven it listens to the community, and no, it can't make sweeping changes randomly in WoL. I would suggest you wait till HoS, where they're clearly going to take the game in a whole new direction.

This topic is unneeded.
Old Post

 
 sleigh bells   United States. June 12 2011 14:30. Posts 358
Profile # 
so blizz doesn't think rush = evil, macro = good. so what?

and meat shields? marauders are just awesome against armored ground units. that makes them solely a meat shield....how? they might tank baneling damage, but that's about it. i agree their comments about immortals are weird though...
Sup son? ¯\__(ツ)__/¯
Old Post

  jalstar   United States. June 12 2011 14:31. Posts 6938Profile Blog # 
Immortals ARE more boring than Colossi, it's just that Colossi are much more "noticeable" because they're big and do lots of damage, and immortals just kind of sit there.

But you barely have to micro immortals because of hardened shield, while if you don't position and micro colossi well they'll get killed by vikings or corruptors in a few seconds.
they're talking about you, boy, but you're still the same
Old Post

  SecondChance   Australia. June 12 2011 14:32. Posts 603Profile # 
I don't understand. The blizzard interviews were talking about balance, unit roles etc. And you base the need for redesign on the "Most UNINTERESTING unit". What the fuck? Characteristics that contribute to a unit being "Uninteresting" don't exactly correlate with it's use and it's balance.

I could say x unit is uninteresting because I don't like it's colour...A more accurate poll would ask the question directly.
Last edit: 2011-06-12 14:33:35
I see the want to in your eyes.
Old Post

 
 nalgene   Canada. June 12 2011 14:32. Posts 2145
Profile # 
Will they plan on adding the DA/ Corsair / Arbiter / Reaver back in? They were pretty unique... especially the Reaver with its ultra slow movement that required some micro to use it or used in conjunction with the shuttle or warp prism. DA could be useful vs biological units with the maelstorm spell. Arbiters with the good ol mobility + recall into someone's base would be pretty fun...
Year 2500 Greater Israel ( Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, Yemen )
Old Post

 
 Itsmedudeman   United States. June 12 2011 14:32. Posts 8493
Profile Blog # 
hmm, the only really strong rush I find is the 2 rax bunker rush (coming from a terran)

it has very good potential to do great damage whether they know it's coming or not, and it has a good follow up as long as you don't lose everything for nothing

the game as a whole is pretty balanced, and certain races have advantages over each other at certain points of the game, but I don't see any glaring balance issues as a whole; the player who played better will win, and if someone loses we can point out where they went wrong 99% of the time

certain units are pretty boring though, colossus, marauder, and corrupter I'll agree with
 
Old Post

 
 btxmonty   Panama. June 12 2011 14:33. Posts 79
Profile # 
When I learned that Dustin B also made Red Alert 2 everything just made sense... RA2 was a great game but its not SC... And I feel Dustin B made SC2 feel more like C&C than SC. I might be wrong, but hey that's how sometimes I feel the battles go.
It is only the dead who have seen the end of war - Plato
Old Post

 
 TheRabidDeer   United States. June 12 2011 14:34. Posts 2321
Profile Blog # 

On June 12 2011 14:30 DeepBlu2 wrote:
I can't help but agree. I think their methods to tell balance, although statistics, are not the correct approach of designing a game, and although the game will take years to be close to perfection, I feel they are taking the wrong steps such as the map pool of 1 rush map, 1 normal map, and 1 macro map in HotS.

They dont look at only statistics, they also analyze games, have their in-house high level player and they regularly communicate with many other high level players (and pros)... all of this on top of statistics.
Old Post

 
 Lokian   United States. June 12 2011 14:35. Posts 564
Profile # 
personally i think I should trust in the developers instead of the 'pros.' aka, 1 person named sen.

Developers went through this for years already and already explain how they collect data for balance. I don't think the developers should listen and give into the community easily because some of the time, the community doesn't know what the hell they are talking about. There might be a handful of people that have good opinions, but they can be hidden behind the massive zerg tears.
Old Post

 
 shindigs   United States. June 12 2011 14:36. Posts 4274
Profile Blog # 
SC2 isn't a bad game by no measure, but compared to Brood War it does seem to lack something its predecessor had. However, its not really Blizzard's fault since even the most hardcore BW enthusiasts never really figured out what made BW entertaining until after SC2 came out.

It's easier to criticize when we have something to compare to BW.
Twitter: @shindags || Collegiate Starleague www.cstarleague.com || Sponsored by #ESPORTSPROBLEMS || twitch.tv/shindigs
Old Post

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