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[G] TangSC's Drop-Style ZvP

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy 1 2 3 4 5 All
 
 TangSC   Canada. December 23 2012 05:11. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 
TangSC's Drop-Style ZvP

[image loading]

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen of Team Liquid! I'd like to welcome you to a guide on an alternative style of ZvP called Drop-Style.

I've had a lot of fun writing guides since the release of SC2, focusing on a wide-range of styles. But of all the styles and all the guides, this one is easily the one that I'm most excited to release. I actually feel contained using only words to describe how excited I am about this, I need balloons and trumpets and shit. It may sound extremely nerdy, but I'm passionately invested in this style of play - it has been my pet project for over two years and I absolutely love playing and teaching it.

The basic concept behind Drop-Style is a multi-pronged Zergling/Baneling drop at 8:15 that allows you to be the first aggressor against Protoss who Nexus-First, FFE, or 1-Gate Expand. I will freely admit that years ago when I first devised this build, it was intended to be an all-in and I used to go for the jugular by streaming Lings and Banelings relentlessly. But as I practiced more, I gradually refined the timings, and found that the initial investment of the drop only delays macro by about 2 minutes. That means you can still max out with roaches by 13 minutes! It can absolutely be a stepping-stone into the midgame, because you can use that aggression, scouting information, and map-control to transition in a number of ways (Mutalisks, Hydralisk Doom-Drops, Roach Max-Outs).

Now to the supporters and upholders of true and genuine macro-Zerg: Do not come at me with pitch-forks and torches. I'm not here to step on your toes. I'm not arguing that Drop-Style is better than pure macro styles, or that it should replace 3-Hatch openings. But I think we can agree that it has value for Zerg players, and I encourage readers to keep an open mind and incorporate this style and here's why. . .

Reasons to use Drop-Style:
.
+ Show Spoiler +

Stream Tutorials:

+ Show Spoiler +

Replays:

+ Show Spoiler +

The Core Build Order:

+ Show Spoiler +

Transition 1 - "Light" Pressure into Quick Roach-Max (13 Minute Max-Out):

+ Show Spoiler +

Transition 2 - "Heavy" Pressure into Mutalisk Harass (14 Minute Max-Out):

+ Show Spoiler +

Transition 3 - "Light" Pressure into Hydralisk Timing Attack (13:30 Max-Out):

+ Show Spoiler +

Scouting/Responding:

+ Show Spoiler +

Scout Denial:

+ Show Spoiler +

All-In (Or is it?):

+ Show Spoiler +

Contributing to the Guide:

+ Show Spoiler +

Thank you for reading, Happy Holidays!
Last edit: 2012-12-23 07:22:54
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. December 23 2012 06:08. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 
Update - compiled a huge replay pack under the "replay" section, some of the games even have those "Broodlord" things!
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 D4V3Z02   Germany. December 23 2012 06:29. Posts 570
Profile # 
You can stray this in as a cheese in a BO3 but you wont have a solid win rate, because when a protoss knows how to deal with that youll lose horribly.
Last edit: 2012-12-23 06:30:39
Reason your quotes please.
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. December 23 2012 06:34. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 

On December 23 2012 06:29 D4V3Z02 wrote:
You can stray this in as a cheese in a BO3 but you wont have a solid win rate, because when a protoss knows how to deal with that youll lose horribly.

First of all, I definitely agree with you that this is a great build to mix into a BO3 and not ideal to use every game of a BO7, however I have used it consistently in GM with a solid win-rate, even against players I've matched against several times in a row. It's not simply a matter of any Protoss scouting it and automatically defending it - it's tougher to deal with than you're giving credit. But you are right - if your opponent knows that it's coming, he will lose less to your initial drop, but that doesn't mean you're out of the game. You still have the advantage of keeping him contained, you have full scouting of his tech and Gateway count, and you can delay the Protoss third with overlord creep.

I'd actually like to avoid discussion on whether this is a cheese/all-in, because I don't think it will be very productive. I've posted an "All-In or Is It?" poll for people to give their two cents, and I'd rather focus instead on how to improve the timings, execution, and transitions.
Last edit: 2012-12-23 06:45:20
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 pAnatiC   Germany. December 23 2012 06:45. Posts 118
Profile # 
Used his Guide/Playstyle for about 1 Month now.
Its really cool!

against the sentry-immortal Playstyle its like a freewin. You kill the nexus - he transfers all probes to natural - your bomb the natural - he goes all in..

But it really depends on denying the scouting of your not existing 3rd..
Against a reeeaally defensive blink/many Gate Player or mass phoenix style, its kinda gay :D

Looking forward for more Guides!
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. December 23 2012 06:47. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 

On December 23 2012 06:45 pAnatiC wrote:
against the sentry-immortal Playstyle its like a freewin.

I forgot to mention that it's incredibly strong against Sentry-Immortal styles, added bonus lol
Last edit: 2012-12-23 06:47:34
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 CrazyF1r3f0x   United States. December 23 2012 07:56. Posts 1735
Profile Blog # 

On December 23 2012 06:47 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +


I forgot to mention that it's incredibly strong against Sentry-Immortal styles, added bonus lol

Maybe that's why you have a solid winrate with it
Old Post

 
 McTeazy   Canada. December 23 2012 08:59. Posts 145
Profile # 

On December 23 2012 06:47 TangSC wrote:

Show nested quote +


I forgot to mention that it's incredibly strong against Sentry-Immortal styles, added bonus lol


point is rather moot since even with the 1 probe scout to see the third he'll know you're not playing 3 hatch before gas. if he tries to immortal sentry against this he's made a terrible play.

that being said, my response to this would be stargate and extra cannons at the front, which i think is pretty bad against it.

let's not pull any punches though: this is an all in play. i think you're concealing the nature of the build calling it "drop-style". in my eyes drop style would be more like a tvp, where you attempt to abuse the fact that protoss units are weak in small numbers against masses of cheap units.

a play like dropping half your army in the main, then sniping the third with the other half would be "drop-style" zvp, though i would argue you were the first to do it.

also a word on scouting: protoss doesn't need to probe scout your third base if you deny it with speedlings. the speedlings tell you enough: there's aggression coming
a person is smart, people are stupid
Old Post

  Mavvie   Canada. December 23 2012 09:00. Posts 850Profile Blog # 
Thanks for the guide, this actually looks like a ton of fun haha

I like the idea of faking/feinting a 1 base roach or bane all in by letting him scout quick gas and a late natural, but denying followup scouts of third and main. I'll be able to mindgame the fuck out of my opponents, so I'll probably start opening 14/14 in all BoX ZvP's.

Thanks again for the writeup, thorough as always Tang!
Mavvie.439 ~ 2500+MMR [HOTS] Masters Zerg on NA ~ part of Bronze 3v3 team uwu ~ Feel free to add me to play some games ~~ Hyunstoppable?
Old Post

 
 Teoita   Italy. December 23 2012 09:08. Posts 4248
Profile Blog # 
Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.

Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.

Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.

As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.


All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.

Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.
Protoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Old Post

 
 TheOnlyRedViper   Norway. December 23 2012 09:29. Posts 20
Profile # 

On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote:
Actually, the best way to defend this all-in if you know it’s coming is with mass Zealots and strategically placed cannons in your mineral lines. For example, you might be fortunate to somehow spot a large group of speed Overlords moving across the map at around 7:00-8:00 accompanied by a large number of Lings.

Against Banelings, it's better for the cannons to be behind the mineral lines rather than inside - that way Banelings can't blow up both cannons and Probes at the same time. Banelings do not really counter Zealots when both armies are small and the Zealots are microed properly. Optimally, you'd also want to do some sort of nice sim-city inside your main, but preemptive sim-city is not advised since usually you'll want buildings around the outskirts of your base to spot for Nydus Worms, which looks almost identical to this build.

Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time, and usually the best you can do is realize that he's doing some sort of 2 base Lair build. Even better, if you can see that he hasn't taken his natural gasses using a Zealot scout then you can probably rule out two-base macro builds like Muta or Infestor.

Against any two-base play (others include Nydus, Hydra, etc.) a good general strategy is to make sure Warpgate is chronoed out as fast as possible, and to have 4 Gates ready by the time it finishes. The first round of warp-ins will be Zealots - either attack/poke with them, or if you scout a large number of Zerglings on the map, warp them in at home. The 4 Warpgates should be accompanied with either a fast Robo or Stargate for scouting purposes. By 8:00 at the latest you should have an Observer, Phoenix, or Void Ray traveling across the map to see exactly what the Zerg is up to if he hasn't attacked by then. While you do need a small number of Sentries to defend your natural choke it’s not wise to spend money on more than two since they are generally not as useful against most Lair strategies, especially this one. Also, it’s smart to preemptively build a cannon in each mineral line; not only is it good against this all-in but it also helps against other 2 base Lair strategies such as Nydus and Muta.

As a final note, a fast Stargate alone is not enough to defend against any sort of drop play. You can get a Void Ray out by the time the drop hits, but it won't be able to kill everything before your base is gone. This is why it's imperative to have Warpgate tech out as soon as possible so you can warp in additional Gateway units to help defend.


All credit for that answer goes to either rsvp or Alej, not sure who wrote that part in the guide.

Also i'd like to add, cmon Tang, don't be ashamed to call your all-ins what they are. Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.


you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas.
You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. December 23 2012 09:35. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 

On December 23 2012 09:08 Teoita wrote:
Thinking that an all-in is a less valid build for whatever reason is just silly.

Agreed, I think that the whole distinction between all-in vs not-all-in is silly. Everyone has a different definition of all-in, so it's a pointless argument to have. When I say that I don't think Drop-Style is all-in, I mean that you don't have to kill the Protoss with the first drop to win the game, you can (and should) transition - how can a build that plans to win with a transition be all-in? That's what I call a timing attack. There are 40-50 replays in the pack against top Masters/Grandmasters, 90% of games continue past the first drop. Zerg can open aggressively, like this, and still play out a macro game assuming good execution, well-planned transitions, and solid multitasking. But this is just my opinion based on my experience, and it's reasonable to think this style is just "putting all your eggs in one basket," but you cannot know until you've tried it.
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 McTeazy   Canada. December 23 2012 09:36. Posts 145
Profile # 

On December 23 2012 09:29 TheOnlyRedViper wrote:

Show nested quote +



you just qouted the PvZ guide, which states the following : Unfortunately, it's near impossible to scout this build out in time . You as a protoss player only knows the following : the zerg player have speed and mined more than 100 gas.
You are completly in the dark, how do u react? I do agree that this style can not be played every game in a bo5, but it surely is not that ewasy to counter ! You have to be able to stay safe against other all inns as well. To call this an all in , i slike call 1 zealot stalker poke an all inn.And ofc a single stargate is not all in, if u do make a pheonix it could be gg right there. The real strength pf the build is that you as a toss player is kept in the dark!


what you most likely know is that some sort of aggression is coming. you see gas being mined, and as a protoss player the only thing you can do is try to cover all the bases. with what you have seen, you simply try to cover everything: extra cannon, a few sentries for bane/roach rushes. pylons around your base for nydus/drop. cannon in the mineral lines for nydus/drop.

it is a strong build, mostly because it's hard to determine exactly what he's doing and defend it perfectly. it's almost guaranteed to do damage in my opinion.

but zerg is taking a 4 minute natural and no early third against an ffe. it's very all in.


Agreed, I think that the whole distinction between all-in vs not-all-in is silly. Everyone has a different definition of all-in, so it's a pointless argument to have. When I say that I don't think Drop-Style is all-in, I mean that you don't have to kill the Protoss with the first drop to win the game, you can (and should) transition - how can a build that plans to win with a transition be all-in? That's what I call a timing attack. There are 40-50 replays in the pack against top Masters/Grandmasters, 90% of games continue past the first drop. Zerg can open aggressively, like this, and still play out a macro game assuming good execution, well-planned transitions, and solid multitasking. But this is just my opinion based on my experience, and it's reasonable to think this style is just "putting all your eggs in one basket," but you cannot know until you've tried it.


his point (i think) was more that playing various all ins does not make you a worse player than someone who plays a macro style. i don't think there's any debate that it's all in.
Last edit: 2012-12-23 09:43:49
a person is smart, people are stupid
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. December 23 2012 09:38. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 

On December 23 2012 09:00 Mavvie wrote:
I like the idea of faking/feinting a 1 base roach or bane all in by letting him scout quick gas and a late natural, but denying followup scouts of third and main. I'll be able to mindgame the fuck out of my opponents, so I'll probably start opening 14/14 in all BoX ZvP's.


Thanks Mavvie. Gas-first is definitely viable in a BoX series ZvP with Leenock's 10Roach Rush and JulyZerg's oldschool 14/14 Baneling bust, I love where your head is at lol.
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. December 23 2012 09:42. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 

On December 23 2012 09:36 McTeazy wrote:

Show nested quote +



what you most likely know is that some sort of aggression is coming. you see gas being mined, and as a protoss player the only thing you can do is try to cover all the bases. with what you have seen, you simply try to cover everything: extra cannon, a few sentries for bane/roach rushes. pylons around your base for nydus/drop. cannon in the mineral lines for nydus/drop.

it is a strong build, mostly because it's hard to determine exactly what he's doing and defend it perfectly. it's almost guaranteed to do damage in my opinion.

but zerg is taking a 4 minute natural and no early third against an ffe. it's very all in.


You make some great points about Protoss being suspicious and covering all the angles after scouting gas-first, McTeazy. I think we're splitting hairs here about what exactly is an "all-in", because while you're saying this build is almost guaranteed to do damage, you still call it an all-in. Is a build that is almost guaranteed to do damage (sometimes enough to put you ahead, sometimes not) an all-in?
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 TheOnlyRedViper   Norway. December 23 2012 09:45. Posts 20
Profile # 

On December 23 2012 09:36 McTeazy wrote:

Show nested quote +



what you most likely know is that some sort of aggression is coming. you see gas being mined, and as a protoss player the only thing you can do is try to cover all the bases. with what you have seen, you simply try to cover everything: extra cannon, a few sentries for bane/roach rushes. pylons around your base for nydus/drop. cannon in the mineral lines for nydus/drop.

it is a strong build, mostly because it's hard to determine exactly what he's doing and defend it perfectly. it's almost guaranteed to do damage in my opinion.

but zerg is taking a 4 minute natural and no early third against an ffe. it's very all in.




If i as a zerg player is forcing u as a toss player to take that kind of precautions, while beeing able to cause guaranteed dammage, I'm happy with that and can PLAN further transitions! Which makes the build imo a good one, with a calculates risk! Combined with solid transitions , this is a build you can use on ladder with a good win ratio and mix into a box with sucess.
Last edit: 2012-12-23 09:59:42
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. December 23 2012 09:46. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 

On December 23 2012 09:36 McTeazy wrote:

Show nested quote +



his point (i think) was more that playing various all ins does not make you a worse player than someone who plays a macro style. i don't think there's any debate that it's all in.

And I agree, though I think if you're doing the same all-in every game, every day, you may not develop some crucial mechanics.
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 CCalms   United States. December 23 2012 12:33. Posts 341
Profile # 
I hope zergs will start doing this more in NA grandmaster, I could use some free points. It was a strong all-in back when it was brand new, but if you can include it in your opponent's range of builds and they end up doing it, it is pretty much a free win, like other cheeses.
Old Post

 
 TangSC   Canada. December 23 2012 12:41. Posts 1611
Profile Blog # 

On December 23 2012 12:33 CCalms wrote:
I hope zergs will start doing this more in NA grandmaster, I could use some free points. It was a strong all-in back when it was brand new, but if you can include it in your opponent's range of builds and they end up doing it, it is pretty much a free win, like other cheeses.

I don't think many Protoss will share your excitement.
Coaching TangStarcraft.com | Team All-Inspiration.com | Stream Twitch.TV/TangSC
Old Post

 
 CajunMan   United States. December 23 2012 13:30. Posts 801
Profile # 
Thank you for this build I have been looking for something to switch it up on Ohana against all the Sentry Immortal allins and this seems like just the thing. Your the man now dawg.
Old Post

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